Latest / The Knife: A True Crime Podcast / The Kill List

Transcript

The Kill List · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
0:07
Speaker 2: And I will tell you that the fact that they
0:09
Speaker 2: are called terrorists is because that is what they do.
0:13
Speaker 2: I was completely terrorized.
0:30
Speaker 3: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith. I'm Patia Eton.
0:34
Speaker 1: This week we speak with a woman that we're calling Susan.
0:37
Speaker 1: We are not using her real name or identifying her
0:40
Speaker 1: location because she asked us not to, and after hearing
0:43
Speaker 1: her story, we understand.
0:45
Speaker 3: Why sometimes one moment can shift so much in a
0:48
Speaker 3: person's life. For Susan, that moment came unexpectedly when a
0:52
Speaker 3: routine day at the office ended with her fearing for
0:55
Speaker 3: her life, and she's never told her story before. Now
0:58
Speaker 3: let's get into the interview. Susan, thank you so much
1:05
Speaker 3: for joining us on the podcast.
1:07
Speaker 2: Thanks, it's interesting to be here.
1:09
Speaker 3: How are you feeling about it?
1:11
Speaker 2: I feel nervous. I think this is something that needs
1:14
Speaker 2: to happen, and it feels like this big secret that
1:17
Speaker 2: I've been holding. I don't know that I've really mentally
1:22
Speaker 2: understood how heavy it's been, but now that I've agreed
1:25
Speaker 2: to do this, I can really feel it's been in
1:27
Speaker 2: my system. So I'm hoping to let this be kind
1:31
Speaker 2: of a purge.
1:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you reached out, and you know, your message
1:35
Speaker 3: to me was a little bit cryptic. You were like,
1:37
Speaker 3: something very weird happened to me and you wanted to
1:41
Speaker 3: talk about it finally. But before we get to that point,
1:44
Speaker 3: give us just a little bit of a snapshotow what
1:46
Speaker 3: was going on with you.
1:47
Speaker 2: I couldn't be more boring.
1:50
Speaker 3: You know.
1:50
Speaker 2: I live in the Midwest, and I had a pretty normal,
1:54
Speaker 2: you know, upbringing. After I had my daughter, I started
1:58
Speaker 2: a business that was totally different than what I had
2:01
Speaker 2: studied in school and didn't really think it would go anywhere,
2:05
Speaker 2: but it did, and it was it was really successful,
2:08
Speaker 2: Like nothing unusual to report in my life. At the
2:11
Speaker 2: time that this happened, I was just working a ton,
2:16
Speaker 2: I was a single mom. I was going to soccer
2:19
Speaker 2: practice with my daughter, you know, I mean, just like,
2:21
Speaker 2: things could not have been more normal. So I had
2:25
Speaker 2: a manufacturing business, and you know, I think at the
2:28
Speaker 2: time this happened, I had about seventy employees. The corporate
2:32
Speaker 2: offices were right there on the manufacturing site, so I
2:35
Speaker 2: had a lot of interactions with my employees. It was
2:39
Speaker 2: production work, and frankly, it was people who were living
2:43
Speaker 2: under some pretty hard circumstances. We tried really hard to
2:48
Speaker 2: pay them a living wage and to you know, make
2:51
Speaker 2: life better for them. But you know, things happened, and
2:54
Speaker 2: you know, people would show up. We had law enforcement
2:56
Speaker 2: show up a few times, and so it's just kind
2:59
Speaker 2: of yeah. So when when this initially happened, I was
3:05
Speaker 2: just like, oh, yeah, the you know, law enforcements here. Well,
3:09
Speaker 2: I wonder what's up today. We'll see who's getting in
3:11
Speaker 2: trouble today, you know. So it was summer of twenty sixteen,
3:15
Speaker 2: kind of early summer. I was at work, you know,
3:18
Speaker 2: I was just working away in my office and one
3:19
Speaker 2: of my front office people came up and she kind
3:22
Speaker 2: of leaned around the corner and said, the FBI is
3:25
Speaker 2: here and they want to talk to you. And I
3:27
Speaker 2: was like, the FBI, Oh my gosh, somebody's in deep trouble,
3:31
Speaker 2: you know. So we got him into the conference room.
3:34
Speaker 2: It was this guy who came in and so I
3:36
Speaker 2: went in there and said hello and sat down with him,
3:38
Speaker 2: and right off the bat, I noticed that he was
3:42
Speaker 2: so nervous. He was holding a leftop and he was
3:46
Speaker 2: holding some folders like he did not look like an
3:49
Speaker 2: FBI agent. He was a very unimposing, kind of this
3:54
Speaker 2: very soft, gentle looking person, not like official or anything
3:58
Speaker 2: like that. And his hands were shaking and I could
4:00
Speaker 2: see his hands sweating. Wow, and I thought, this is
4:03
Speaker 2: really weird.
4:05
Speaker 3: I mean, it's so weird. Patient. I know, we've interviewed
4:07
Speaker 3: multiple FBI agents at this point and.
4:10
Speaker 1: We're always just like blown away by their confidence, Like
4:13
Speaker 1: you did what for how long? And you thought that
4:16
Speaker 1: was fun? Yeah, it's like definitely a typical of an
4:20
Speaker 1: FBI agent to come off as nervous, even if they are.
4:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. I just kind of chalked it up to, you know,
4:27
Speaker 2: maybe maybe I've seen too many movies because I haven't ever,
4:31
Speaker 2: to my knowledge, met an FBI agent before, so I thought, well, okay,
4:35
Speaker 2: I guess we're all human. But you know, he was rattled.
4:38
Speaker 2: He seemed like he didn't know how to start the conversation,
4:40
Speaker 2: and he just said, I'm here. The FBI has a
4:44
Speaker 2: duty to inform you that we have learned that there
4:48
Speaker 2: is a Middle Eastern terrorist group that issues kill lists.
4:54
Speaker 2: He called it a kill list, and he said, the
4:57
Speaker 2: people who are on that list, the FBI, you know,
5:00
Speaker 2: we come and inform you that you're on that list,
5:01
Speaker 2: and I was thinking, well, who's on that list. I'm
5:04
Speaker 2: trying to rack my brain to remember if somebody on
5:07
Speaker 2: my crew was Middle Eastern or something, and he said,
5:10
Speaker 2: you're on the list. I looked at him and I
5:13
Speaker 2: just started laughing. I mean, it just was so absurd
5:17
Speaker 2: that I started laughing. He was poor guy. I mean,
5:22
Speaker 2: he didn't know what to do with my reaction. I
5:24
Speaker 2: think he was ready to be very serious, and I
5:26
Speaker 2: think he was ready to have me fall apart and
5:28
Speaker 2: you know, get all this, you know, but I was
5:30
Speaker 2: just laughing. And he said, let me just lay this
5:33
Speaker 2: out for you. Let me tell you what we know.
5:35
Speaker 2: And he opened up his laptop and he pulled up
5:38
Speaker 2: a website which was in an Arabic language, and he
5:42
Speaker 2: translated it, and he scrolled down a little bit and
5:45
Speaker 2: there I was, and it was my name, my full name,
5:48
Speaker 2: and my address. And I thought, oh my god.
5:54
Speaker 1: Just a few minutes earlier, Susan had been going about
5:56
Speaker 1: an otherwise normal day, and now she's being told that
6:00
Speaker 1: and a violent terrorist organization wants her dead. None of
6:04
Speaker 1: it makes sense, especially coming from this scared, sweaty man
6:07
Speaker 1: sitting in front of her, was he really with the FBI?
6:11
Speaker 2: Like, who is this guy? What's going on? And when
6:13
Speaker 2: he had come in, he had shown me his badge
6:15
Speaker 2: and he had given me his card, and so I said,
6:17
Speaker 2: hang on just a minute, I need to go talk
6:19
Speaker 2: to somebody. And he said, no, you can't talk to anybody.
6:22
Speaker 2: This has to be completely confidential. And I said, no way,
6:27
Speaker 2: I don't even know how to understand this information. I'll
6:31
Speaker 2: be right back. So I went in and I talked
6:33
Speaker 2: to my CEO and he'd been working for me for
6:35
Speaker 2: like ten years. I knew him really well. And I said,
6:38
Speaker 2: I need you to check out this guy. Call the FBI.
6:42
Speaker 2: Don't call the number that's on this card, call them
6:45
Speaker 2: and see if this guy is actually an FBI agent.
6:48
Speaker 2: He doesn't seem like it. He's really nervous.
6:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so smart to double chat, because it's like
6:53
Speaker 3: a random person walks in, he's sweating and tells you
6:57
Speaker 3: shocking information.
6:58
Speaker 1: So you go and you talk to your CEO. And
7:00
Speaker 1: did he or she already know that the FBI was
7:03
Speaker 1: in the building.
7:04
Speaker 2: Supposedly, yeah, he did. So when I went in and said,
7:07
Speaker 2: call the FBI and check this guy out, I didn't
7:09
Speaker 2: tell him what was going on. I just said, make
7:11
Speaker 2: sure this guy's real and then come into the conference room.
7:14
Speaker 2: So he did, and he came in and said, yep,
7:17
Speaker 2: this guy's the real deal. And I said, we'll sit
7:19
Speaker 2: down because we need to talk. And so the FBI
7:24
Speaker 2: guy said, I don't recommend this. He said, this cannot
7:28
Speaker 2: get out. So he sat there. My CEO received this,
7:33
Speaker 2: you know news, Hey, Susan's on this terrorist kill list,
7:37
Speaker 2: and so they told me that there was one other
7:39
Speaker 2: person in my state that was on the list.
7:42
Speaker 1: Susan asked the question anyone in her position would ask,
7:46
Speaker 1: why me Her life was, in her own words, boring.
7:49
Speaker 1: It didn't make any sense that this terrorist organization would
7:53
Speaker 1: want to kill her. But this FBI agent he didn't
7:56
Speaker 1: have an answer, and when Susan pressed him on, it
8:00
Speaker 1: almost felt like he was guessing.
8:02
Speaker 2: They couldn't figure out why we had been picked for
8:06
Speaker 2: the list. They didn't know if it was randomly generated.
8:09
Speaker 2: The other person who was in my state didn't have
8:12
Speaker 2: anything to do with my business industry that I was in.
8:17
Speaker 1: You know.
8:17
Speaker 2: The only thing that he said, because I have a
8:19
Speaker 2: little bit of an online presence because of my business,
8:22
Speaker 2: and we you know, do a lot of marketing. I'd
8:25
Speaker 2: been in a women's magazine about you know, women who
8:27
Speaker 2: accomplished stuff, and so he thought, you know, maybe because
8:30
Speaker 2: you're a woman in leadership. But it really felt like
8:33
Speaker 2: he was just taking stabs in the dark or whatever
8:36
Speaker 2: that saying is.
8:37
Speaker 3: So really he had no idea necessarily, But you're just
8:40
Speaker 3: getting the information that your name is on a kill
8:43
Speaker 3: list and this is a well known terrorist organization. Yeah,
8:48
Speaker 3: how are you even processing that information in that moment?
8:51
Speaker 3: What are you thinking?
8:53
Speaker 2: Well? I couldn't stop laughing. I mean, my CEO and
8:56
Speaker 2: this guy they were looking at me like I was
8:58
Speaker 2: nuts because I think I had so much a dress
9:00
Speaker 2: ongoing and I just was laughing.
9:05
Speaker 1: And so you're receiving this like mind blowing information that
9:10
Speaker 1: is both like incredibly scary and makes no sense at all.
9:15
Speaker 1: He has no reason why you would be on the
9:18
Speaker 1: list to offer you how do you leave off?
9:22
Speaker 3: Is it just like good luck?
9:25
Speaker 2: Basically? I mean really, he said, you know, I said
9:29
Speaker 2: what should I do? And he said, well, you need
9:31
Speaker 2: to call your local county sheriff's department because if something
9:36
Speaker 2: happens and you need to call nine to one one,
9:38
Speaker 2: they're going to think you're nuts, and so you need
9:41
Speaker 2: to alert them. And I was thinking, you alert them,
9:45
Speaker 2: you know, like you're just coming to tell me, Like
9:48
Speaker 2: I can't believe that law enforcement isn't hearing about this.
9:51
Speaker 2: So he said, you know, caller Scheff's department, have a
9:55
Speaker 2: conversation with them, and then just be safe. And he
9:58
Speaker 2: said call me if you need anything. And he slides
10:00
Speaker 2: this like sweaty kind of dang up curd across the
10:03
Speaker 2: table at me, and I'm thinking, dude, you are the
10:06
Speaker 2: last person that I'm going to call if there's any
10:08
Speaker 2: kind of a threat. So he left, and my CEO
10:13
Speaker 2: and I went into our office and shut the door
10:16
Speaker 2: and just stood there and looked at each other like
10:18
Speaker 2: what the hell. And it was funny because I was
10:21
Speaker 2: looking at my CEO and there was this switch that
10:25
Speaker 2: flipped that was like, Okay, this isn't real. This totally
10:27
Speaker 2: isn't real. And got very busy and kind of went
10:31
Speaker 2: back to work and was bustling around his desk and
10:33
Speaker 2: all this kind of stuff, and I was thinking, Wow,
10:36
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, felt very alone. And I went
10:39
Speaker 2: outside and I was just sitting on the ground trying
10:42
Speaker 2: to figure out what to do. Next, and I called
10:47
Speaker 2: my partner and told him what had happened, and he
10:51
Speaker 2: was It was the very first experience of oh it
10:56
Speaker 2: was think, got you mixed up with somebody.
10:57
Speaker 1: Else, sweaty and nervous or not. This amateur agent was
11:01
Speaker 1: verifiable FBI, which meant the government thought there was good
11:06
Speaker 1: reason to warn her. As the adrenaline wore off, it
11:11
Speaker 1: was all sinking in. This was real. Susan was on
11:15
Speaker 1: a hit list. An organization that she'd read about in
11:19
Speaker 1: the news articles about violent acts and extreme tactics such
11:23
Speaker 1: as beheadings, was now targeting her. This was so scary
11:28
Speaker 1: she could hardly process it. But the two people she
11:31
Speaker 1: trusted to tell her, CEO and her partner, they didn't
11:35
Speaker 1: seem scared at all. In fact, they blew it off
11:37
Speaker 1: as a mistake. This didn't help her calm down. It
11:41
Speaker 1: just made her feel even more afraid.
11:43
Speaker 2: I've thought about this so much. It's not victim blaming,
11:47
Speaker 2: it's just dismissal. So I thought, Okay, I am in
11:51
Speaker 2: this by myself.
11:52
Speaker 3: Can I ask, though, because because you do have kind
11:55
Speaker 3: of a common name, So yeah, how are you sure?
11:58
Speaker 3: Because I think you did know it was actually you? Right?
12:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they had my name and address on
12:03
Speaker 2: the website.
12:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they have your address there, Like, how can
12:06
Speaker 3: that be a mistake, especially when your life is this
12:11
Speaker 3: is talking about the potential of your life being in danger.
12:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. It was heavy on my mind that the FBI
12:17
Speaker 2: had said don't tell anybody, because there was no way
12:20
Speaker 2: that I was going to be able to deal with
12:22
Speaker 2: it or figure out what to do by myself. So
12:24
Speaker 2: I called my dad, who is just like the loving,
12:28
Speaker 2: most sweetest, most protective dat ever, and he ended up
12:32
Speaker 2: going to the FBI and saying, Okay, somebody showed up
12:35
Speaker 2: on my daughter's doorstep, what the hell is going on?
12:38
Speaker 2: And all they could really do is confirm They showed
12:41
Speaker 2: them all the information that they showed me. They gave
12:44
Speaker 2: them the same instructions about get a hold of local
12:46
Speaker 2: law enforcement and just let us know if anything happens.
12:50
Speaker 2: I was kind of stunned. I mean, I don't even
12:52
Speaker 2: really remember the next couple of days, and my partner
12:55
Speaker 2: was continuing to be like, you know what, I'd say,
12:58
Speaker 2: I'm so scared, aren't you scared? And he said, no,
13:02
Speaker 2: I'm not scared.
13:04
Speaker 1: In moments like this one, Susan started to feel like
13:07
Speaker 1: she was living in the twilight Zone. But the FBI
13:10
Speaker 1: had left her with one more piece of advice that
13:13
Speaker 1: might help her stay safe. Call your local sheriff's office.
13:17
Speaker 1: The idea was that if she could update them and
13:20
Speaker 1: let them know that she was on this hit list,
13:23
Speaker 1: then they could be on hilert. They could be prepared
13:25
Speaker 1: if she ever did need their help.
13:28
Speaker 2: So I called my local sheriff's office, and I remember
13:32
Speaker 2: talking with the dispatch person and she was like, Okay,
13:36
Speaker 2: so what you're saying is like, this is not an emergency.
13:40
Speaker 2: But you know, she was just trying to get the
13:42
Speaker 2: whole story straight, and she was just like, yeah, okay,
13:45
Speaker 2: we'll have somebody call you. And so somebody did call
13:49
Speaker 2: me back a couple days later, and they had somebody
13:52
Speaker 2: from the sheriff's department come to my house. And he
13:55
Speaker 2: thought I was nuts. I mean, he just thought, this
13:57
Speaker 2: is the biggest waste of my time. He didn't mean
14:00
Speaker 2: really asked me any questions. He didn't want to talk
14:02
Speaker 2: about it. I have two cats. One of them jumped
14:04
Speaker 2: up on the counter. So we spent like twenty minutes
14:06
Speaker 2: talking about my cat. He was telling me about his
14:08
Speaker 2: mom's cats, and he had zero interest, zero curiosity. There
14:13
Speaker 2: was no sense of urgency. I was so freaked out
14:17
Speaker 2: and scared that nobody was responding to this.
14:20
Speaker 1: Because this is now the third time you brought it
14:22
Speaker 1: to your CEO, who sort of, you know, maybe did
14:25
Speaker 1: his best in the moment, but didn't fully process it.
14:28
Speaker 1: Was not sort of rallying to help you figure it out.
14:33
Speaker 1: Your partner who dismisses it as a mistake and doesn't
14:37
Speaker 1: show any real concern. And now the local sheriff's office
14:41
Speaker 1: that the FBI instructed you to contact to showing you
14:44
Speaker 1: the same sort of nonchalance.
14:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just disinterest. He was a little bit older,
14:51
Speaker 2: and it was kind of like I was the hysterical woman,
14:54
Speaker 2: and I wasn't being hysterical. I was talking to him.
14:56
Speaker 2: I wasn't crying, I wasn't upset, but he was just like,
14:59
Speaker 2: don't worry, you know, this is fine. So I talked
15:02
Speaker 2: to him about my cat for a while and he
15:04
Speaker 2: left and just you know, gave me his card and
15:07
Speaker 2: said let me know if you need anything. So I'm
15:10
Speaker 2: still kind of in this place where I'm just this
15:13
Speaker 2: is nothing, this is silly, and then feeling just so stunned,
15:20
Speaker 2: I was just in shock. I'm nobody. I have not
15:23
Speaker 2: done anything controversial. I've been totally kind of apolitical my
15:28
Speaker 2: whole life. I've not done anything that would be a
15:30
Speaker 2: threat to anyone, and so I'm trying to balance that.
15:34
Speaker 2: And I was home one afternoon and there's a knock
15:38
Speaker 2: at the door and I go answer it and it's
15:40
Speaker 2: this guy. He's my area's sweat team guy. And I'm thinking, okay,
15:44
Speaker 2: here we go, here we go again. And he turned
15:49
Speaker 2: out to be an angel. I mean, he turned out
15:52
Speaker 2: to be such a grounding force and he was so helpful.
15:57
Speaker 2: He had two guys with him, and he showed me
16:00
Speaker 2: his card, showed me as badge. He was like, if
16:04
Speaker 2: you want to check this out, we'll wait right here.
16:06
Speaker 2: And at that point I was like, come on in.
16:09
Speaker 2: I'm like checking people out. So he came in and
16:13
Speaker 2: he said he was from my county's swat team, and
16:17
Speaker 2: he said, we have just been debrieched by the FBI.
16:21
Speaker 2: We know that this is happening. We know that you
16:24
Speaker 2: talked to your local sheriff's office and they didn't know
16:28
Speaker 2: about it at the time. They know now we have
16:31
Speaker 2: some things that we need to do today and we're
16:33
Speaker 2: here to help you. And it was such a relief
16:37
Speaker 2: to have somebody take this seriously. I just thought, holy shit,
16:40
Speaker 2: I am in deep trouble. I am in really deep
16:43
Speaker 2: trouble here. So they kind of broke up. You know,
16:46
Speaker 2: this guy, the main guy, was talking to me, I'll
16:48
Speaker 2: call him Alan. He was talking to me, talking through
16:53
Speaker 2: what they knew about the website, what they knew about
16:55
Speaker 2: the kill lists. And then the other two guys went
16:58
Speaker 2: around my house. Yes, they took pictures of every square
17:03
Speaker 2: inch of my house. And then they walked me around
17:05
Speaker 2: and said, Okay, a person could hide here, a person
17:08
Speaker 2: could hide here. They walked me around my yard because
17:11
Speaker 2: I have a lot of landscaping in my yard, and
17:13
Speaker 2: they said, you need to cut all this down because
17:15
Speaker 2: it'd be so easy for somebody to hide right here.
17:19
Speaker 1: Susan's daughter was away at college while all of this
17:22
Speaker 1: was happening, but Susan thought about her all the time.
17:26
Speaker 1: She wanted someone to take this seriously to make her
17:29
Speaker 1: feel safe again, and now someone was. At the same time,
17:33
Speaker 1: the very presence of this local swat team made her
17:36
Speaker 1: nightmare more real. They walked her through her house, pointing
17:39
Speaker 1: out places A trained assassin could hide. They told her
17:42
Speaker 1: to cut down trees and bushes in her yard so
17:44
Speaker 1: an attacker couldn't use them for cover. This was no
17:47
Speaker 1: longer a theoretical threat. Every moment of her life now
17:51
Speaker 1: carried the way of potential violence.
17:54
Speaker 2: They said, when you're in your car, make sure your
17:57
Speaker 2: car is always locked. When you pull up to your
17:59
Speaker 2: garage in your locked car, open up the garage door,
18:02
Speaker 2: drive in, close the garage door right away, look around
18:06
Speaker 2: as you're still in your locked car, and then unlock
18:09
Speaker 2: your car and go into your house. I was so afraid.
18:12
Speaker 2: Everything that they were saying was making it so real.
18:15
Speaker 2: They had thought through how this organization was going to
18:20
Speaker 2: carry through with their threat, and it was kind of like,
18:23
Speaker 2: you know, things that I had been thinking about in
18:25
Speaker 2: the middle of the night, but they were actually playing
18:26
Speaker 2: out scenarios. And then at the end they were about
18:29
Speaker 2: to leave and he said, we're going to have people
18:31
Speaker 2: surveilling your house. They put this I can't remember what
18:35
Speaker 2: the word is, but it's it's a designation that they
18:37
Speaker 2: put on my house and it's I think it's called
18:39
Speaker 2: hazard one. When the SWAT team was leaving, you know,
18:42
Speaker 2: I said, what should I do? Should I get a gun.
18:45
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do, and he said, the
18:47
Speaker 2: reality is is that they're very good at what they do,
18:50
Speaker 2: and if they want to get you, they will get you,
18:53
Speaker 2: and you will not see it coming. They will pick
18:55
Speaker 2: you off in a parking lot or somewhere were you
18:58
Speaker 2: least expected, because that's what they do. I think at
19:01
Speaker 2: that moment, I just I felt so exposed. I felt
19:12
Speaker 2: like a sitting duck, and I felt very isolated. You know,
19:21
Speaker 2: all the people that I told were men, and I
19:24
Speaker 2: don't have anything against men, but I wish that I
19:26
Speaker 2: had told somebody who had a little more capacity for empathy,
19:29
Speaker 2: because everybody was so I think overwhelmed by the information
19:32
Speaker 2: that they didn't know how to think about what was
19:35
Speaker 2: needed at the time for me. And so at that
19:40
Speaker 2: point I just stopped. I couldn't work. I was afraid
19:44
Speaker 2: to go to work because I didn't want to put
19:46
Speaker 2: anybody else in danger.
19:54
Speaker 1: As life continued around her, Susan's reality completely shifted. She
19:59
Speaker 1: couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't walk to her kitchen without
20:03
Speaker 1: looking over her shoulder. Every creaky floorboard, every hum of
20:08
Speaker 1: a car engine, it all made her heart race. The
20:12
Speaker 1: SWAT team was surveilling her home and her work, which
20:15
Speaker 1: brought its own mix of emotions. Imagine looking outside and
20:20
Speaker 1: seeing a man in your yard, knowing he's there to
20:22
Speaker 1: see if anyone else is there trying to kill you.
20:27
Speaker 2: They were watching my facility. This big black suburban like
20:31
Speaker 2: three times a week at night would drive by, and
20:34
Speaker 2: you know those spotlights that they have on their cars.
20:37
Speaker 2: There would be these big spotlights that would go on
20:39
Speaker 2: as they drove by. I think early on I hadn't
20:42
Speaker 2: remembered this until yesterday, but sometimes they would walk around
20:45
Speaker 2: my backyard, which it was comforting knowing that somebody was
20:50
Speaker 2: taking this seriously, but it also was terrifying. And I
20:56
Speaker 2: just started to fall apart. And I'm like a strong person.
21:02
Speaker 2: I'm in manufacturing and it's a male dominated world, and
21:06
Speaker 2: I have to deal with a lot of rough people.
21:09
Speaker 2: And I really started to fall apart. And I think
21:11
Speaker 2: it was because I could hardly eat, I could not sleep,
21:17
Speaker 2: and I would be laying in bed and I would
21:20
Speaker 2: be kind of like in this semi almost falling asleep,
21:25
Speaker 2: and then I would hear like the slightest sound, and
21:28
Speaker 2: it was like somebody was shocking me right in my
21:30
Speaker 2: solar plexus. It was just like this huge shock of adrenaline.
21:35
Speaker 2: So it was just over and over and over again,
21:37
Speaker 2: and I felt so alone. And I would say to
21:40
Speaker 2: my partner, are you afraid, And he'd say no, and
21:44
Speaker 2: he'd say, don't worry, I'm right here, and then he
21:46
Speaker 2: would fall asleep, and I knew that he couldn't help me.
21:53
Speaker 1: Susan's home was no longer a place she felt safe
21:56
Speaker 1: or in control. She knew what it was like to
21:59
Speaker 1: be tie. She'd been a single mother, she ran her
22:02
Speaker 1: own company, but this kind of sleep deprivation was different.
22:06
Speaker 3: It was worse.
22:08
Speaker 2: I got to the point where I live kind of
22:11
Speaker 2: close to some foothills, and I got so unglued from
22:16
Speaker 2: lack of sleep that he would take me up there
22:19
Speaker 2: and he would just like sit on the head of
22:21
Speaker 2: his car, spread some blankets out, and I would just
22:24
Speaker 2: sleep because I needed sleep so desperately, and I'm so
22:27
Speaker 2: afraid to fall asleep because it was I felt like
22:31
Speaker 2: I was the only one watching. I felt like I
22:33
Speaker 2: was the only one that was taking it seriously. And
22:40
Speaker 2: this guy from the FBI would check in. He called
22:43
Speaker 2: me and he said, I'm going to send you an email,
22:45
Speaker 2: and it's got some information in it, and there's a
22:48
Speaker 2: photograph of somebody that's a sympathizer, you know, or maybe
22:53
Speaker 2: part of this terrorist group who were watching, and they
22:56
Speaker 2: live like forty five minutes a town that's like forty
22:59
Speaker 2: five minut it's away from me. And he said, we
23:02
Speaker 2: want you to know what he looks like.
23:05
Speaker 1: Up until this point, the terrorist group behind the hit
23:08
Speaker 1: list was still just made up of nameless, faceless people
23:11
Speaker 1: thousands of miles away. It was scary, but now here
23:15
Speaker 1: was this person who lived just a short drive away,
23:18
Speaker 1: a sympathizer who agreed with and supported their mission in ideologies.
23:23
Speaker 1: It's a very real threat. In twenty fourteen, a US
23:27
Speaker 1: citizen and terrorist sympathizer Ali Mohammed Brown killed four people
23:31
Speaker 1: for what he described as vengeance over US policy in
23:34
Speaker 1: the Middle East. In twenty nineteen, a man named Rondel
23:37
Speaker 1: Henry was arrested after plotting attacks in DC. He'd run
23:40
Speaker 1: in a U haul and planned to run into a
23:42
Speaker 1: crowd of pedestrians, but abandoned his plan at the last
23:45
Speaker 1: second because he thought the crowd wasn't big enough. Maryland
23:48
Speaker 1: prosecutors determined Henry had been inspired by a terrorist attack
23:52
Speaker 1: in France back in twenty sixteen. This email from the
23:56
Speaker 1: FBI alerting Susan of a nearby sympathizer included both his
24:01
Speaker 1: photo and the make and model of his car.
24:04
Speaker 3: He was real, and he was close.
24:07
Speaker 2: I started seeing those cars everywhere, you know, It's like
24:11
Speaker 2: all of a sudden comes into your awareness, and they
24:13
Speaker 2: were everywhere. It was a minivan. My god, there are
24:16
Speaker 2: minivans all over the place. So I was starting to
24:20
Speaker 2: be in this very weird, suspended place, which I know
24:23
Speaker 2: now is just like I was in this big vat
24:27
Speaker 2: of trauma that was going on. And so I decided
24:30
Speaker 2: I needed to go someplace where nobody knew where I was.
24:32
Speaker 2: So I went about two hours away and just rented
24:36
Speaker 2: this little place. And I'm not a big drinker, but
24:39
Speaker 2: when I got up there, I ended up getting really
24:42
Speaker 2: drunk the first night that I was up there, which
24:44
Speaker 2: is like two and a half drinks for me, But
24:46
Speaker 2: it did the job. I remember vaguely. It was around
24:51
Speaker 2: the time when Dennis Miller was a really popular comedian
24:54
Speaker 2: and he would do those top ten lists. Do you
24:57
Speaker 2: remember that.
24:58
Speaker 3: I'm not familiar. Was this like amedian?
25:01
Speaker 2: He was a comedian yeah, and he would do these
25:02
Speaker 2: top ten lists, okay, and that was very popular at
25:05
Speaker 2: the time. And so as I'm getting plastered, I start
25:08
Speaker 2: making up this list about the top ten things that
25:11
Speaker 2: are worse than being on a terrorist hit list, and
25:14
Speaker 2: I started to laugh and it kind of started to
25:17
Speaker 2: break up a little bit, like I couldn't be afraid anymore.
25:22
Speaker 2: I couldn't sustain that level of terror. And I will
25:26
Speaker 2: tell you that the fact that they are called terrorists
25:29
Speaker 2: is because that is what they do. They terrorize people.
25:33
Speaker 2: I have never had a hair on my head touched,
25:37
Speaker 2: but I was completely terrorized. It's interesting now that I
25:41
Speaker 2: look back on it and I see how effective that
25:44
Speaker 2: was to do that.
25:45
Speaker 3: Yeah.
25:46
Speaker 1: How much time had gone by between this first meeting
25:50
Speaker 1: with the FBI agent at your place of work to
25:53
Speaker 1: this moment in the rental two hours away where you're like, Okay,
25:59
Speaker 1: something's got to give here.
26:00
Speaker 2: I think it was probably like three weeks.
26:04
Speaker 3: That's a long time to be feeling that afraid and
26:07
Speaker 3: not sleeping. I mean, it just really does sound like
26:10
Speaker 3: a nightmare. I mean I think that, like a lot
26:12
Speaker 3: of people can identify with being home, being afraid, having
26:17
Speaker 3: those thoughts of what if someone breaks into my house.
26:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was all orchestrated so well, and
26:23
Speaker 2: maybe that was accidental, but like the method of what
26:26
Speaker 2: they did to be terrifying. At every step of the way,
26:30
Speaker 2: there was no good solution. There was no way to
26:32
Speaker 2: resolve it. So it's just kind of hanging out there.
26:34
Speaker 2: So the point where I got to, I cannot sustain
26:37
Speaker 2: this terror any longer. I cannot do it. I can't
26:40
Speaker 2: do it physically or mentally. Emotionally, I can't do this anymore.
26:45
Speaker 2: And then I woke up the next morning with of
26:49
Speaker 2: course a hangover, but I heard on the news that
26:54
Speaker 2: there had been a shooting at a concert in Dallas, Texas,
26:59
Speaker 2: and bunch of police officers had been shot. It was
27:02
Speaker 2: like we were receiving this news of oh my god,
27:05
Speaker 2: there was a shooting. It was like that was when
27:07
Speaker 2: the last piece broke free or I let go. It's like, okay,
27:12
Speaker 2: not even police are safe. And then my mind just
27:15
Speaker 2: started going there. I like, none of us are safe.
27:18
Speaker 2: I could do everything, this could be resolved, and I
27:20
Speaker 2: could die in a car accident on the way home.
27:23
Speaker 2: I could have a massive stroke and fall down dead
27:25
Speaker 2: right here. The fact that I have a little bit
27:28
Speaker 2: of information about this has to just be a side note,
27:34
Speaker 2: because at the same time that everything is okay, we
27:39
Speaker 2: all are going to go at some point.
27:42
Speaker 1: This is the moment that everything shifted for Susan. She
27:46
Speaker 1: had done all she could do to protect herself, but
27:49
Speaker 1: had also been told if they want to get you,
27:52
Speaker 1: they will, and you will not see it. Coming from
27:56
Speaker 1: the moment that FBI agent walked into her office, her
27:59
Speaker 1: sense of safety had been shattered, replaced by a constant,
28:02
Speaker 1: gnawing fear of fear so great and so powerful that
28:06
Speaker 1: it was overtaking her life. She knew she could not
28:10
Speaker 1: go on like this. She realized that she wasn't more
28:13
Speaker 1: or less safe than she had been before, because every
28:16
Speaker 1: day was full of unknowns, risks, and surprises. No one
28:20
Speaker 1: knows when they're going to die. In the end, it
28:23
Speaker 1: wasn't taking control that gave Susan a sense of peace
28:26
Speaker 1: or safety. It was accepting how little control she was in.
28:31
Speaker 2: So I kind of went back to my life, and
28:35
Speaker 2: you know, I did all the things I got on
28:36
Speaker 2: alarm system, and I cut down a lot of my landscaping,
28:39
Speaker 2: and I did those things because it felt good to
28:42
Speaker 2: me to feel like I was doing something for myself
28:45
Speaker 2: and that I was taking action. Slowly, over the years,
28:48
Speaker 2: some of those habits have melted away, which was such
28:50
Speaker 2: a jarring experience when I, you know, went to my
28:53
Speaker 2: friend door the other night to turn off the lights
28:55
Speaker 2: and I saw that it was unlocked, and I was like,
28:56
Speaker 2: oh my god, you know, I have slipped that far.
29:00
Speaker 2: I've tried to tell a couple of people over the years,
29:05
Speaker 2: I think like maybe two people, and so trying to
29:09
Speaker 2: tell people about a trauma and then trying to convince
29:12
Speaker 2: them of its authenticity at the same time, it's horrible.
29:16
Speaker 2: I can't do both. And that's why I wanted to
29:19
Speaker 2: tell the story to you, because it's real and how
29:22
Speaker 2: could I make this up? When I went back to work,
29:25
Speaker 2: we decided to because I was so concerned about putting
29:29
Speaker 2: other people, you know, in harm's way, and I thought,
29:33
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it won't be an attempt that is, like,
29:35
Speaker 2: maybe they're not going to shoot me sniper style. Maybe
29:38
Speaker 2: they'll send a bomb to the building. And then I
29:41
Speaker 2: was thinking about all these people who you know, Oh
29:44
Speaker 2: my gosh, this is terrifying. So we put a lot
29:47
Speaker 2: of protocol in place. We changed the format of the
29:51
Speaker 2: building in a way, so you know, you had to
29:53
Speaker 2: have a badge to swipe in. All the packages were
29:56
Speaker 2: checked in a particular part of the building before they came.
30:00
Speaker 2: Anything that was not like clearly marked from a vendor
30:03
Speaker 2: that we knew was not opened.
30:06
Speaker 1: And so when do you decide to tell your daughter
30:10
Speaker 1: and what is her reaction?
30:13
Speaker 2: I told her about four years ago.
30:18
Speaker 1: That's twenty twenty one. This happens in twenty sixteen. It's
30:21
Speaker 1: a long time.
30:23
Speaker 2: It is. Yeah. I actually told a friend of mine
30:26
Speaker 2: about it, one of my best friends, and she is
30:31
Speaker 2: very logical. She's very research minded, you know. She's like, okay,
30:35
Speaker 2: I'm looking this up and she's like, oh yeah, I
30:36
Speaker 2: see that there are articles about these lists, and I
30:38
Speaker 2: see that there is stuff out there. And she and
30:41
Speaker 2: I kind of problem solved. When I told my daughter
30:43
Speaker 2: about it, we were in person. I told her in
30:46
Speaker 2: a way that was framed around you know, I'm safe,
30:48
Speaker 2: this is okay, it's over. But I just want you
30:51
Speaker 2: to know that this happened. And she was very initially upset.
30:58
Speaker 2: She was very scared. You know, she and I are
31:00
Speaker 2: really close. I think she was able to process through it.
31:03
Speaker 2: But it's like, what do you even process through. I
31:06
Speaker 2: have not found a good way to resolve this yet, really,
31:09
Speaker 2: so you just kind of have to let it age
31:12
Speaker 2: and diminish. I think.
31:20
Speaker 1: The list Susan was on is real, and it's not
31:23
Speaker 1: the only one. In fact, terrorist organizations have been making
31:26
Speaker 1: these hit lists for years. Some targeted names of people
31:30
Speaker 1: who worked for homeland security or were members of the
31:33
Speaker 1: US military. Others seemed totally random. Susan never got an
31:37
Speaker 1: answer as to why her name was on a list.
31:41
Speaker 1: How long did that swat team or the FBI surveil
31:46
Speaker 1: your home?
31:47
Speaker 3: How long did that go on for?
31:49
Speaker 2: It went on for about a year and a half,
31:52
Speaker 2: but it got less and less. At first it was probably,
31:55
Speaker 2: you know, three times a week, then it kind of
31:58
Speaker 2: went to once a week. We have to be really
32:00
Speaker 2: careful at work because if we call nine to one one.
32:04
Speaker 2: The way that they explained it to me is they
32:05
Speaker 2: come guns drawn. So they're not going to just come
32:08
Speaker 2: up and knock on the door and say, oh, did
32:11
Speaker 2: you call nine one one. You know they're coming expecting action,
32:14
Speaker 2: I guess. So at one point I did have to
32:16
Speaker 2: call my local sheriff's office for something that was totally
32:18
Speaker 2: unrelated and it was non emergency, but they came, and
32:22
Speaker 2: when they came, a swat team guy showed up too,
32:26
Speaker 2: And after I had talked to the sheriff about what
32:30
Speaker 2: my business was, the swat team guy said, how are
32:33
Speaker 2: you doing? We're watching this. We're on this. Every time
32:36
Speaker 2: that you call, it's routed directly to us, so we
32:39
Speaker 2: will always come. And I was like, oh God, can't
32:42
Speaker 2: you take this thing off my house? And he said, no,
32:44
Speaker 2: we're not going to do that. I'm glad that people know,
32:47
Speaker 2: but I it's it's it feels over.
32:51
Speaker 1: This decision to stay anonymous on this podcast and sort
32:56
Speaker 1: of relatively anonymous in your life with this story. Although
32:59
Speaker 1: you've told some trusted loved ones why.
33:03
Speaker 2: I don't want to get the attention of anybody. I
33:05
Speaker 2: don't want to make myself a target again. That feels
33:07
Speaker 2: very important. Yeah, I don't want to say, oh, we
33:11
Speaker 2: forgot that person. Well, some may go get her, right,
33:15
Speaker 2: And I also don't want to put myself back in
33:17
Speaker 2: that place of feeling exposed. That is a bad feeling.
33:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, just thinking about the whole
33:25
Speaker 3: ordeal and everything you had to go through and sleepless
33:29
Speaker 3: nights and all the fear. You know, how do you
33:32
Speaker 3: think back now about the FBI's decision to inform you
33:36
Speaker 3: of this threat, Like, are you glad that that happened,
33:38
Speaker 3: were you glad that you knew? Or what is your
33:41
Speaker 3: thinking around that?
33:43
Speaker 2: That is such a tough question. It's kind of like
33:47
Speaker 2: yes and no. I think that I have a right
33:50
Speaker 2: to know, and I also think that I went through
33:53
Speaker 2: a lot. It's easily one of the worst things that's
33:57
Speaker 2: happened in my life. And I think it was all
34:01
Speaker 2: a terrorist ruse, and I think it was designed to
34:06
Speaker 2: put me through what I went through. I wish they
34:09
Speaker 2: had told me in a different way. I wish they
34:12
Speaker 2: had brought me in so they didn't send some nervous
34:15
Speaker 2: nubie out to drop this in my lap and then
34:20
Speaker 2: say good luck. I wish they'd told me in a
34:22
Speaker 2: different way. And you know what, I also want to
34:25
Speaker 2: say that to everyone, from the initial guy who came
34:29
Speaker 2: to talk to me to the Sheriff's department and the
34:34
Speaker 2: SWAT team. I know that everybody was trying to do
34:37
Speaker 2: their best. No one was unkind to me. Maybe dismissive, yes,
34:41
Speaker 2: but I think that no one had been through this before,
34:43
Speaker 2: and they didn't know what to do, So I don't
34:46
Speaker 2: want to sound like I'm trying to disparage any of
34:49
Speaker 2: those people who try to help.
34:51
Speaker 1: When the FBI agent who initially came to speak with
34:55
Speaker 1: you gave you the information that there was one other
34:58
Speaker 1: person in your state on the list, were you given
35:02
Speaker 1: that person's name? Did you ever speak with them?
35:07
Speaker 2: No, they did tell me that they were They were
35:09
Speaker 2: a doctor or dentist or something. I kind of wish
35:12
Speaker 2: that I had asked for that information. If there's someone
35:15
Speaker 2: out there that hears this, I would love to talk
35:19
Speaker 2: to them to see what their experience was. The main
35:23
Speaker 2: SWAT team guide has sent me information. It stopped probably
35:26
Speaker 2: about five years ago, but he would send me some
35:29
Speaker 2: follow up information. And another list was posted on the website,
35:35
Speaker 2: on the terrorist website, probably two years after the one
35:41
Speaker 2: that I was on was published, and all those people
35:44
Speaker 2: were on the East Coast and they were all either
35:46
Speaker 2: current or ex military. So he's trying to piece together
35:50
Speaker 2: like how did I get on this list? And he said,
35:54
Speaker 2: at this point, my best guess is that it was
35:56
Speaker 2: just random, that it was just a random thing.
36:01
Speaker 1: I'm so curious how putting random names on a list.
36:04
Speaker 1: Although it is terrifying for the people who are those
36:08
Speaker 1: names on the list. How it benefits that organization. I mean,
36:13
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have any insight on this
36:14
Speaker 1: after your experience, but is it just to say, you
36:17
Speaker 1: know what, FBI, I'm going to occupy your time with
36:21
Speaker 1: this random civilian. Did they ever offer you anything about
36:27
Speaker 1: why you.
36:29
Speaker 2: No, I mean they had some guesses. I think I've
36:32
Speaker 2: already mentioned it was because women in leadership and that
36:35
Speaker 2: I have a little bit of an online presence, but
36:38
Speaker 2: like I mean, compared to the average, I'm the same
36:40
Speaker 2: as everybody else.
36:41
Speaker 1: Everyone has an online presence now, yeah right, yeah, And
36:45
Speaker 1: so when did you first start really feeling like you
36:49
Speaker 1: were in control of your life again, being able to
36:52
Speaker 1: sleep at night? You know, you said that your relationship
36:55
Speaker 1: ultimately ended, which I assume that means you're sleeping alone
36:59
Speaker 1: in your house with your cats.
37:02
Speaker 2: Yes, my cats and my dogs. I have two dogs
37:06
Speaker 2: with big, loud, scary, vicious sounding barks, which is great.
37:10
Speaker 2: Love that and they would definitely defend me. I think
37:13
Speaker 2: it just goes back to I used to be really
37:15
Speaker 2: afraid of the dark. I mean up until like long
37:18
Speaker 2: after my daughter was born, and I realized when my
37:20
Speaker 2: daughter was born that I had to get over it
37:22
Speaker 2: because you get up in the middle of the night
37:24
Speaker 2: a lot when you're a parent. Now it feels like
37:26
Speaker 2: a choice for me. I live alone with my animals,
37:29
Speaker 2: and I can lay in bed and be afraid or
37:33
Speaker 2: I cannot. And at this point, there's no way in
37:37
Speaker 2: hell I'm going to let somebody else dictate whether or
37:39
Speaker 2: not I'm laying in bed feeling afraid. That's up to me.
37:43
Speaker 2: That maybe sounds kind of simple, but it's the only
37:47
Speaker 2: place I've been able to make a change, to make
37:49
Speaker 2: an actual change in how I feel.
37:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense, Like in your own mind. Well,
37:54
Speaker 3: it's tricky, right, because the threat was real, So it's
37:58
Speaker 3: not like this was just in your head. You know,
38:00
Speaker 3: this was a real thing that the outside world was like,
38:03
Speaker 3: this is a real threat. You know, having a SWAT
38:04
Speaker 3: team come to your house is terrifying, I imagine. But
38:07
Speaker 3: then beyond that, what you do with that, And it's like, yeah,
38:09
Speaker 3: it's so much about your own mind and your own fear.
38:12
Speaker 2: I don't know how to talk to people even yet
38:14
Speaker 2: without having it sound totally crazy and phony. I've never
38:17
Speaker 2: heard anyone talk about anything close to this, So that's
38:22
Speaker 2: why it was very hard for me to figure out
38:25
Speaker 2: how to email you guys. But I will tell you
38:28
Speaker 2: that listening to the podcasts that you've already put out,
38:31
Speaker 2: I wanted to tell my story in a way that
38:33
Speaker 2: somebody would thoughtfully investigate what happened and not trying or
38:38
Speaker 2: rip me apart over it. Because, like I said, that
38:41
Speaker 2: dismissal is really tough, and I wanted to talk to
38:47
Speaker 2: somebody who would be responsible about handling this information in
38:54
Speaker 2: a safe way.
38:56
Speaker 1: It sounds like in your case, you've just learned to
38:59
Speaker 1: live with this obscure, terrifying threat and manage that fear
39:06
Speaker 1: in a healthy way. But there is no okay, it's over,
39:10
Speaker 1: And what does that feel like?
39:13
Speaker 2: I think I had to create an over for myself
39:18
Speaker 2: because I don't want it to be part of my life.
39:21
Speaker 2: I don't want to carry this around inside anymore. I
39:26
Speaker 2: don't want to have this feeling like I have this
39:28
Speaker 2: thing that's so scary and so big, but I have
39:32
Speaker 2: to keep it a secret. I'm just not willing to
39:35
Speaker 2: do that. And the over part for me is just
39:41
Speaker 2: choosing not to, Like I'm not going to participate, you know,
39:44
Speaker 2: if I could talk to the people. I would say,
39:47
Speaker 2: I'm done. I am not going to participate in your
39:50
Speaker 2: little terrorist shenanigans that you are doing. I'm not going
39:54
Speaker 2: to do it anymore. So that has been my delineation
39:59
Speaker 2: of it being over.
40:00
Speaker 3: Well, that was our conversation with Susan, and I have
40:08
Speaker 3: to say I really enjoyed talking with her. One thing
40:11
Speaker 3: that really stands out from that conversation was this idea
40:14
Speaker 3: that she brought up of I think she called it
40:18
Speaker 3: victim dismissal. You know, she was experiencing this terrifying situation,
40:23
Speaker 3: and yet everyone around her for a period of time
40:27
Speaker 3: kind of acted like she was making too big of
40:29
Speaker 3: a deal of it.
40:31
Speaker 1: Yeah. I loved the way she put that because even
40:33
Speaker 1: in her own mind, she was trying to assess the
40:35
Speaker 1: threat that was, you know, what this FBI agent had
40:38
Speaker 1: told her, and how vague everything was, but how real
40:41
Speaker 1: it also was because the actual FBI was there and
40:44
Speaker 1: the people that she trusted didn't really know what to
40:46
Speaker 1: make of it. I mean, I think that even someone
40:48
Speaker 1: with the best of intentions could think that they're doing
40:52
Speaker 1: someone good by trying to like put their mind to ease.
40:55
Speaker 1: Oh it's nothing, it's just a mistake. There's no way,
40:58
Speaker 1: but don't worry. Don't worry, But then the SWAT team's
41:01
Speaker 1: at your house, and it is worrying.
41:03
Speaker 3: How do you not worry when a SWAT team is
41:05
Speaker 3: literally at your house? I would be very very concerned. Yeah,
41:10
Speaker 3: and I want to quickly mention as well. Even though
41:13
Speaker 3: Susan didn't want to use her name or her location,
41:16
Speaker 3: which I totally understand, she mentioned that if anything came
41:20
Speaker 3: out of this, it would be interesting to her to
41:23
Speaker 3: connect with someone else who had been through this similar
41:26
Speaker 3: situation of being on a terrorist hit list. So you know,
41:31
Speaker 3: I don't know if someone is listening to this and
41:33
Speaker 3: you're like screaming at your phone right now, I've been
41:36
Speaker 3: through this too. Send us an email at the Knife
41:38
Speaker 3: at exactlywritemedia dot com and we would love to speak
41:41
Speaker 3: with you and hopefully be able to connect you with Susan.
41:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so initially Susan reached out to us via email,
41:49
Speaker 1: and you were like, Okay, we have to do this interview,
41:52
Speaker 1: but I don't even want to tell you too much
41:55
Speaker 1: about it because her story is one that we've never
41:57
Speaker 1: heard before. And I was totally gamed. And sometimes I
42:01
Speaker 1: love going into interviews like that, because you know, you
42:03
Speaker 1: can find yourself asking different questions than maybe if you
42:06
Speaker 1: had prepped yourself ahead of time. And I certainly wasn't
42:09
Speaker 1: expecting the story that she told. And one of the
42:12
Speaker 1: major pieces that came with Susan agreeing to speak with
42:15
Speaker 1: us even though she had reached out, was that we
42:18
Speaker 1: not identify the organization that had put her on this
42:21
Speaker 1: target list. And after researching these sorts of target lists,
42:25
Speaker 1: there have been multiple terrorist organizations that have made them,
42:29
Speaker 1: and so we're just going to talk about a few examples.
42:32
Speaker 1: A well known organization ISIS created multiple lists just like
42:37
Speaker 1: this one.
42:38
Speaker 3: You know.
42:38
Speaker 1: One thing Susan told us in the interview about these
42:41
Speaker 1: lists in general and why the FBI reached out to
42:43
Speaker 1: meet with her, was that these lists weren't really considered
42:46
Speaker 1: to be an actual threat to people. And so when
42:49
Speaker 1: they first started popping up, the FBI wasn't a learning
42:52
Speaker 1: to people who were on them.
42:53
Speaker 3: What do you mean they weren't considered a threat.
42:55
Speaker 1: They weren't sure what to make of it, Like, they
42:57
Speaker 1: didn't think that notifying people was necessarily in their best
43:01
Speaker 1: interest maybe okay, And I wasn't able to verify that,
43:04
Speaker 1: but that is what she told us. Is to part
43:07
Speaker 1: of the reason why the FBI came to tell her
43:10
Speaker 1: this even though they had very little else to offer
43:12
Speaker 1: in that first.
43:13
Speaker 3: Meeting, right, I remember that like that they had gotten
43:15
Speaker 3: some pushback because maybe they had not notified people about
43:18
Speaker 3: being on hitless. So then they're notifying people, and you know,
43:23
Speaker 3: that's also scary. I don't know what you're supposed to do,
43:25
Speaker 3: necessarily so scary, and that FBI agent didn't know either.
43:29
Speaker 1: And so now years have passed and some research has
43:32
Speaker 1: come out about the actual purpose of these lists, okay,
43:36
Speaker 1: and so what is the real threat? In one of
43:39
Speaker 1: the articles I read about this, a man named Matthew
43:42
Speaker 1: Levitt from the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. He
43:47
Speaker 1: said he believes that these lists are trying to spark
43:50
Speaker 1: the interest of lone wolves. So sympathizers, you know, which
43:53
Speaker 1: we talked about during the interview, people who believe in
43:57
Speaker 1: the mission of a terrorist organization but might live domestically
44:02
Speaker 1: and have access to people on this list that the
44:05
Speaker 1: people oversees in some foreign country do not.
44:08
Speaker 2: Wow.
44:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's like this message to sympathizers, if you
44:14
Speaker 3: want to join our cause, you don't have to fly
44:16
Speaker 3: across the world. Here's a mission for you to do
44:20
Speaker 3: in your own state or something like that.
44:23
Speaker 1: Right, because they would love to take responsibility for an attack.
44:27
Speaker 1: And so that is the real threat and that to me,
44:31
Speaker 1: learning that both partially in our interview with Susan when
44:35
Speaker 1: she was alerted of a nearby sympathizer, and then making
44:38
Speaker 1: even more sense of what that threat really meant after
44:41
Speaker 1: researching it, that's really scary because I mean we were
44:45
Speaker 1: able to pull up multiple examples of those threats being
44:48
Speaker 1: carried out, almost carried out and resulting in senseless tragedy.
44:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is scary. It makes it more real. And yeah,
44:57
Speaker 3: that was a clear escalation in the story. When there
44:59
Speaker 3: was a name and a vehicle. It wasn't just this
45:02
Speaker 3: sort of theoretical threat from an organization that was across
45:07
Speaker 3: you know, the world. Suddenly, it was there could be
45:10
Speaker 3: someone carrying this out right now. And as you said,
45:13
Speaker 3: there's been a few examples of this happening, right.
45:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the surveillance that was happening at her home
45:19
Speaker 1: and at her work, you know, it wasn't twenty four
45:22
Speaker 1: to seven. It wasn't like she had security detail following
45:25
Speaker 1: her around. Although they were checking in, you know, it
45:29
Speaker 1: wasn't like this total relief. It was almost just reaffirming
45:33
Speaker 1: the fear without making her feel any safer. So this
45:38
Speaker 1: idea that these target lists the purpose was to instigate
45:42
Speaker 1: these lone wolf attacks, it's real.
45:45
Speaker 3: You know. She talked about like being terrorized, feeling terrorized,
45:49
Speaker 3: and how horrible that was for her, and how really
45:52
Speaker 3: she just wanted someone to kind of acknowledge it in
45:54
Speaker 3: her life and say, yeah, that's really scary and it's
45:57
Speaker 3: really scary to be in your home and think that
46:01
Speaker 3: someone might be actively trying to kill you.
46:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just someone to confide in about your fear,
46:06
Speaker 1: even if they're not going to be able to offer
46:08
Speaker 1: you a solution. To have to sort of carry that
46:11
Speaker 1: emotional burden on your own would be really really lonely.
46:16
Speaker 3: Yeah.
46:17
Speaker 1: Another moment of the interview that I wanted to touch
46:19
Speaker 1: on is Susan mentioned to us that her house is
46:22
Speaker 1: labeled a hazard one. I had never heard that term before.
46:26
Speaker 1: I had never heard of that either. Yeah. So when
46:28
Speaker 1: this whole ordeal happened, the purpose behind it is great.
46:32
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, we're a lerning local law enforcement of
46:35
Speaker 1: this threat, so that if you ever meet us, we're
46:37
Speaker 1: ready for the threat. But all these years later, her
46:41
Speaker 1: house is still labeled a hazard one, so even if
46:44
Speaker 1: someone slips and falls, she has to be ready for,
46:48
Speaker 1: you know, people to come, guns drawn, swat team if
46:50
Speaker 1: she calls nine one one, if she goes to sell
46:52
Speaker 1: her house.
46:53
Speaker 3: That's what was really interesting when she said that she
46:56
Speaker 3: would have to disclose that to the potential buyers, that
47:00
Speaker 3: this house is a hazard one. So FOYI, let's so
47:03
Speaker 3: you have little kids and you need to call nine
47:06
Speaker 3: one one, just like be prepared that there will be
47:09
Speaker 3: there's going to be a swat team coming to your house. Terrifying.
47:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's not a small consequence. It's small
47:16
Speaker 1: relatives to the fear that someone's going to kill you.
47:18
Speaker 1: But it's just another consequence of this happening to her.
47:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, And she had asked for that to be removed
47:25
Speaker 3: because it's been almost ten years since this happened a
47:28
Speaker 3: live and you know, she feels like it's really not
47:31
Speaker 3: a threat anymore. But technically, since her name was on
47:35
Speaker 3: that list, it's not like there's an end point of like, okay,
47:38
Speaker 3: officially this is wrapped up and your name is not
47:40
Speaker 3: on this list anymore. So it's kind of this open
47:43
Speaker 3: ended thing where they're going to keep her house and
47:45
Speaker 3: her workplace listen as hazard one just in case, I guess.
47:50
Speaker 1: Right, because it's not like this terrorist organization is going
47:53
Speaker 1: to say you, Susan are released from the list. The
47:56
Speaker 1: list just lives now. Yeah, and actually I do want
47:59
Speaker 1: to And we touched on this in the interview. Susan's
48:03
Speaker 1: a listener of the podcast and reached out to us,
48:05
Speaker 1: and we absolutely love that.
48:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so grateful she reached out and wanted to
48:10
Speaker 3: tell us this story such a unique, strange true crime
48:16
Speaker 3: story where like, no one's getting hurt, really, but it's
48:20
Speaker 3: that human experience we talk so much about where you're like, Okay,
48:25
Speaker 3: someone gets dropped into this nuts situation and now what. Yeah,
48:30
Speaker 3: I'm grateful that she wanted to talk to us about it,
48:33
Speaker 3: because she had not told very many people at all
48:37
Speaker 3: about this to this day. Yeah. One of the things
48:40
Speaker 3: I wanted to talk to you about in this wrap
48:42
Speaker 3: around specifically was your thoughts on the part of the
48:46
Speaker 3: story where Susan talked about being a parent, being a mom.
48:50
Speaker 3: You know, in the beginning when she was telling us
48:52
Speaker 3: her story. She said she's a single mom, And then
48:54
Speaker 3: when we got to the point of her talking about
48:57
Speaker 3: being on this hit list and the SWAT team coming
48:59
Speaker 3: to her house, you know, the idea of a kid
49:03
Speaker 3: being in the house was really scary. It turned out
49:05
Speaker 3: that her daughter was away at college at the time.
49:08
Speaker 3: Still scary, but you know, she didn't have a kid
49:11
Speaker 3: in the house at that moment. But I'm just curious
49:13
Speaker 3: if you have any like reflections or thoughts about that.
49:16
Speaker 1: Well, I'll say that before I knew her daughter was
49:19
Speaker 1: living out of the house at the time, it was
49:22
Speaker 1: my first question, what do you do? I mean, I
49:25
Speaker 1: feel like my instinct would be to just leave. My
49:29
Speaker 1: kid is a toddler, so I've been a parent for
49:32
Speaker 1: much less time than she has. But I think that like,
49:36
Speaker 1: the fear you have for something happening to your child
49:40
Speaker 1: is just you cannot even compare it to any fear
49:43
Speaker 1: you might have for something happening to yourself. But also,
49:47
Speaker 1: you know, Susan is a single parent, so she's always
49:51
Speaker 1: having to consider that if something did happen to her,
49:54
Speaker 1: that is a different situation than if you're not a
49:57
Speaker 1: single parent. That was something about her interview that I
50:00
Speaker 1: found really touching is how much thought she even gave
50:04
Speaker 1: to when to tell her daughter about this target list,
50:10
Speaker 1: because you also don't want to burden your children with
50:13
Speaker 1: the fear that they're going to lose you, And she had,
50:16
Speaker 1: you know, not that much information to give her and
50:19
Speaker 1: didn't want to relay the same vague but serious threat
50:25
Speaker 1: that this FBI agent had put on her.
50:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't imagine also being like the child in
50:31
Speaker 3: that situation. Let's say you're away at college, Like the
50:33
Speaker 3: last thing you want to hear is your parent calling
50:35
Speaker 3: you up and saying, by the way, this terrorist organization
50:38
Speaker 3: that you've been reading about at the news like knows
50:40
Speaker 3: who I am and has my address and wants to
50:43
Speaker 3: kill me. So, I mean, it makes sense that she
50:45
Speaker 3: didn't tell her daughter at that time. I think she
50:48
Speaker 3: said it was like years later, Yeah, that they spoke
50:51
Speaker 3: about it.
50:52
Speaker 1: And even then it was kind of sad and scary
50:55
Speaker 1: for her to take in. But by that point Susan
50:57
Speaker 1: had a more sort of measured person spective on it
51:00
Speaker 1: herself and was probably in a better position to guide
51:04
Speaker 1: her daughter through that same experience.
51:07
Speaker 3: Yeah. I've thought about this interview a lot since it happened.
51:11
Speaker 3: We have two different experiences, or maybe more than two.
51:15
Speaker 3: But when we're interviewing someone, there's that experience of interviewing
51:19
Speaker 3: them usually we're on zoom, we see their face, you know,
51:23
Speaker 3: it's a longer conversation that ends up in the final episode.
51:27
Speaker 3: And so there's that experience, and then there's the experience
51:30
Speaker 3: of like editing it and the final the final piece
51:34
Speaker 3: that ends up coming out. There was a lot of
51:36
Speaker 3: time to think about it, and I don't know, the
51:38
Speaker 3: visuals of the SWAT team like coming into her house
51:42
Speaker 3: and the reality of them saying things like, well, an
51:46
Speaker 3: assassin could be, you know, hiding in your pantry. So
51:49
Speaker 3: that's something to think about, and it's so scary, and
51:53
Speaker 3: it's like I've thought about that in my house so
51:55
Speaker 3: many times since where would someone hide? Like this is
52:00
Speaker 3: the stuff of nightmares, and then to be told that
52:02
Speaker 3: it's real, Like your worst nightmare, like the monster under
52:05
Speaker 3: your bed is actually a real thing, so be careful
52:08
Speaker 3: because it's going to get you.
52:09
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, or just you know, my toddler wakes
52:13
Speaker 1: up at night it's so dark. I'm walking to her
52:16
Speaker 1: room and I'm like, I'm not scared at all, you
52:19
Speaker 1: should go back to sleep. I'm fine.
52:21
Speaker 3: Yeah.
52:22
Speaker 1: They Also the day we did that interview happened to
52:25
Speaker 1: also be the day that I got these baby proofing
52:28
Speaker 1: like door alarms, because we have a door that goes
52:31
Speaker 1: to our fire escape, a door that goes to our balcony,
52:33
Speaker 1: and it's just like a magnet. If you open the door,
52:36
Speaker 1: there's a loud beeping that happens because we keep those
52:40
Speaker 1: doors closed for obvious reasons, and I couldn't install those
52:44
Speaker 1: fast enough.
52:46
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, but I have to say I also have
52:49
Speaker 3: really thought about the conversation we had with her about
52:52
Speaker 3: how she mentally sort of moved past this, which was
52:58
Speaker 3: surprisingly sort of deep and touching to me.
53:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, she drew this pretty definitive line in the sand
53:05
Speaker 1: for herself, just based off of like a shift in perspective.
53:09
Speaker 1: And I think that's so powerful that she was able
53:12
Speaker 1: to do that. Was this recognizing that no one was
53:15
Speaker 1: going to do it for her. This organization wasn't going
53:18
Speaker 1: to say never mind wrong, Susan, that was a joke.
53:22
Speaker 1: It was just all going to go on forever. It
53:25
Speaker 1: was up to her to move on or not move on,
53:27
Speaker 1: And obviously moving on doesn't happen completely, but she now
53:33
Speaker 1: is to the point where she can talk about it,
53:35
Speaker 1: and she wasn't for a long time.
53:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much, Susan for trusting us with
53:39
Speaker 3: your story. Thank you for listening to this episode. Let
53:43
Speaker 3: us know what you think. You can always leave us
53:44
Speaker 3: a comment on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can also
53:48
Speaker 3: reach us directly on Instagram at The Knife Podcast. We
53:52
Speaker 3: check our Instagram, so if you have something you want
53:54
Speaker 3: to tell us, we will get the message. We will
53:56
Speaker 3: try to reply and thank you so much for listening.
53:59
Speaker 3: We'll see you next week.
54:01
Speaker 1: If you have a story for us, we would love
54:03
Speaker 1: to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia
54:06
Speaker 1: dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram at
54:08
Speaker 1: the Knife Podcast or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
54:11
Speaker 3: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
54:15
Speaker 3: by me Hannah Smith.
54:16
Speaker 1: And me Paysha Eaton. Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and
54:19
Speaker 1: Alexis Samarosi.
54:21
Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
54:24
Speaker 3: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
54:27
Speaker 3: the Airport Artwork five vansa Lilac executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff,
54:32
Speaker 3: Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer,