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Transcript

His Girl Friday · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy Zephi. Fast
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: start changing with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Hey, Caitlyn Duranday, Hey Jamie, do you have that article
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: for me? You're a reporter and I need you to
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: talk really fast to be so that we.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Haven't And I didn't do any research because I'm tired,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: so I just made it up and here it is.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Let's put it in the paper.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Well that's okay. Yeah, let's just keep overlapping and talking
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: like this so that no one can understand what we're saying.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, then that's kind of the charm of the movie,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: because yeah, I guess for me, but for me, and
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: it's my birthday. God damn it.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Not anymore, Jamie, not anymore?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Oh shit, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. Say, my name
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: is Jamie Loptis.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: we examine movies through an intersecttional feminist lens, using the
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Bechdel test as a jumping off point. But Jamie what's
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: the Bechdel Test.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you. I'll tell you what it is. I've
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: got it in this big old book right here. It's
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: a video metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, often
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: called the Bechdel Wallace test because she co created it
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: with a dame named Oh abroad, a broad name less Wallace.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Oh no, sorry, Les Wallas. Lots of versions of the test.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: The version we use is this, two characters of a
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: marginalized genders with names you hear speak to each other
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: about something other than a fella for for two lines
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: or more. Does it happen in this movie? I would argue, yes,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: which kind of feels like a miracle. Uh oh does it?
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: I didn't even notice because I didn't know who was
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: talking at any point.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: It's like there's conversations between women that eventually divert to
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: be about a man. There's not a full conversation that
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: passes the Bechtel test, but there are exchanges between Hildy
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: and Molly that pass the Bechdel test. Yeah, and other
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: than that, it's like two incidentals account But I do
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: think that there's a conversation between Hilldy and Molly that
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: passes and that's the episode folks. No, just kidding, yod
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: bye see Laos so long It's his Girl Friday week
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: on the backdel cast. I was originally going to choose
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: this as one of my birthday picks on the Matreon,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: but we went another direction to learn about that direction
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: head over to the Matreon. Wow, but this is still
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: I think a movie that warrants discussion because it's a
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: very famous movie, and yeah, what's your history with this movie?
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I thought I had seen it because it's one of
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: those like classic Hollywood movies that you have to see
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: if you want to know about film, you know, say,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: but twist. I thought I had seen it, and it
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: turns out I hadn't. I think I was getting it
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: confused with Philadelphia Story, which I have seen.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: This does feel, Yeah, I always kind of forget that,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: which is unfair to Rassalin Russell, who I think gives
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: an unbelievable performance in this movie. I always sort of
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: code this in my brain as a Katherine Hepburn movie,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: which it is not. But I also think that's somewhat
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: understandable given the fact that at the Howard Hawks movie
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: it feels like a Howard Hawks movie. And I just
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: associate those movies with Carrie Grant and Katherine Hepburn because
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: he did bringing up baby with her. Anyways, so this
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: was your first time watching.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: This was my first time watching it. I wasn't super
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: thrilled with it at the top. I generally like Carrie
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Grant movies. Say, he's probably my favorite actor of that era, sure,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: because he's sort of the only one who I know
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: about other than Gene Kelly. Jimmy Stewart.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, I like Geen Kelly, you do, but you hate
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Stewart.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I hate Jimmy Stewart.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Honestly, I think that you have slowly moved me
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: against Jimmy Stewart. Yes, yeah, there I said it.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Well, you're welcome. But anyway, I generally like Cary Grant movies.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: This is not one of the ones I care for
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: very much, partly because his character is despicable. I think,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, we'll have an interesting discussion about this movie,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: but it just wasn't quite for me. What about you, Jamie,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: what's your relationship with the movie?
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: So interestingly, and I feel like this is just because
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: this show has been on for so long that we're
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: running out of genuine favorite movies to cover. So yeah,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I originally picked this as a birthday pick for the Matreon,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: not because it's one of my favorite movies. This is
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: only my second time seeing it, but because I saw
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: it in theaters last year and I was not watching
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: it critically. I was just kind of letting it wash
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: over me and was like, Wow, that movie was I mean,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I also thought maybe I'd seen it in film school.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I didn't. I have seen like a couple Howard Hawk's
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: movie before and seen Bringing Up Baby. We've covered gentlemen
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: preferred blondes on this very show, so you know, I
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: sort of assumed that I that I'd seen this before.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: I hadn't, and I kind of I mean, it's interesting
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: because I think where I generally come down on this
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: movie is I really enjoyed seeing it in theaters. I
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: really enjoyed seeing it with an audience. It was really
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: fun listening to jokes written eighty five years ago still
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: play in a theatrical setting. Like I was very taken
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: in by the experience. I was with people who I love,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: who loved the movie. It was like it was a blast.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: And then upon leaving the movie. I was like, Wow,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I really love the performances in this movie, and I
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: think that it is like a tricky movie for us
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: to talk about, which is why I want to try,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: because it, you know, I think, fails as a feminist
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: story but succeeds as a satire, and if a few
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: elements were adjusted, it could be successful as both. And
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: then I did some more reading and it sort of
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: brought back this like latent. You know, early film school
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: talks of the Hoxian woman, and I don't. I honestly
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: don't remember. Listeners, you may be a better authority on
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: this than we were if we talked about the tropes
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: that are associated with the Hoxian woman, like the one
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: of the like a guy's girl, kind of like the
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: original guys girl in film tropes. But I don't know. Like,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: I think this movie is a super fun watch. I
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: think as a satire it's like really successful and I
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: enjoy letting it wash over me. But if you are
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: watching it for a feminist hero, unfortunately you do not
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: get one, which is which is frustrating. It almost like
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: reminds me of I feel like these kind of like
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Hoxyan women are in conversation with so many other tropes
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: around women that come up later in film, of like
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: the girl power girl who is doing all the cool stuff,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: is saying all this stuff. There is the illusion of agency,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: but it like collapses under scrutiny of like, well, no,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: she is still very much being heavily manipulated by the
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: male protagonist or by the patriarchal system on the whole.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: It's so tricky and it's like also quite evil to
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: loop in this brutal manipulation of Hildy with something that
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: she appears to be very good at and loves, which
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: is drill like it's just it's I don't know. It'll
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: be an interesting discussion for sure, because I'm not like
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: super attached to Like, I won't defend this movie. I
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: won't go to the map for it, but I do
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: understand why people still watch it.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Yeah. Hmm, well let's get into it,
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: how we Alrighty, here is the recap, and I'll place
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: the content warning for a brief kind of mentioned slash
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: discussion of suicide. We open on the busy office of
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: the morning Post newspaper from what city I can't tell,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: not New York, somewhere else ever, heard of somewhere else.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: No me either.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: We meet Hildy played by Rosalind Russell, who is there
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: to see her her ex husband, Walter played by Kerry Grant.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: He is the editor in chief of the newspaper which
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Hildy used to write for until she quit, no longer
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: wanting to be in the newspaper business right.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Unclear why, because it's like this is where it gets
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: so fascinating already, where it's like she's like, it's corrupt,
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: and then you look at how they do business and
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: you're like, oh, yeah, true. But then you're like, but
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: that's but that's not why. She actually loves being corrupt.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: It's her favorite.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she doesn't mind it all.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: These two are just like there is something interesting about
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: watching two characters that you're like, hmm. These characters are
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: both kind of you're.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Evil, and they deserve each other.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: They found each other and they're really going to like
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: win a pulis or saying something very fucked up someday,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: very true.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, So Hildy goes to see Walter. They talk about
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: their relationship, why it didn't work out. Then he plays
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: a little trick to try to get Hildy to come
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: back and work for him again, because he's always tricking people,
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: double crossing people, manipulating people, doing sneaky and shady stuff
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: to get what he.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Wants in life and at work.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, and Hildy is like, I'm not gonna come back
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: and work for you. And if you're trying to get
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: back together with me, I'm not doing that either. I'm engaged,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: I have a fiance and I'm getting married tomorrow. And
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: he's like, damn, that sucks.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: And then it's just like your first hint that something
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: is amiss is the fact that she's like, and I
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: need to do this in person, and you're like, no,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: you don't, No, you don't. This could have been an email,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: you know this. Yeah, why didn't she email him? That's
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: what that's us. This is our twenty fourteen feminist critique.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: She should have texted him, Okay, So that's weird. I
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: also feel like there is a coding specifically during well
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: not even specifically during this, like throughout romantic comedies that
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: if someone if the like alternate romantic interest, is like
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: an accountant or works in insurance, he is fundamentally unworthy
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: of love. I think they're like this this trope carries
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: through the nineties weirdly.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think there's like a career coded thing and
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: then also a personality thing where if.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, were you kind right, if you're like you don't
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: deserve if you're romantic and sweet, or on the flip
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: side of it, like the other end of the spectrum,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: if you're pure evil a la cal Hockley from Titanic
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: right right. There are exceptions, but it's like I just
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: moments ago listeners tested negative for COVID, but I have
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: been a part of a COVID movie club consisting of
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: me and my boyfriend. Who else who has COVID? And
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: okay really exclusive? But we watched Pretty Woman for the
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: first time last night. I'd never seen it, and I
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: mean we that's been a request on this show for years.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: We've just been waiting for the right guess, the right moment.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: But I just you know, it's so like the Richard
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: gear character, and Pretty Woman also like a very fundamentally
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: evil capitalist, yes, who like makes one good choice, and
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: then you know it's just like so bizarre. It reminds
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: like the Tom Hanks Jeff Bezos character. And you've got
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: male and you're like, we have to be rooting for
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: someone who's like I guess that. The thing with with
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Cal Hockley is he's despicable, but he's not charming and
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: the whole like it's like if you have less RIZ
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: than the other guy. I mean you could say he's
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: not try.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I mean Billy Zane is trying, right, Cal, Yeah, you're right,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: he's cow.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Is like a phony, and I feel like it reads
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: to people who are not millionaires. Sure, yeah, but it's
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: just like it's a RIZ contest. It doesn't matter what
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Carry Grant's values are, He's going to have more RIZ
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: than the other guy, because that's like Cary Grant, right, exactly.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in any case, she is engaged to a
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: different man now. Walter is clearly disappointed, but he wants
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: to meet her fiance. Bruce, an insurance salesman.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Parentheses will be fucked over and arrested forty times because
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: fuck him.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean insurance is a scam, so.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: It definitely is.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: But I don't feel feel bad.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: I feel like the job is coded as quote unquote boring,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: not like corrupt, because it's like Carrie Grant is corrupt
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: as hell, Like, yeah, that's why they love each other
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: because they're both. I mean, she's a less corrupt reporter
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: than the rest of them, but that's like grading on
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: a curve exactly.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So Walter insists on taking them out to lunch,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: where he learns that Hildy and Bruce are taking a
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: train later that day to move to Albany Forever.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Which does, with all due respect to my Albany heads,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: which does sound really really unpleasant. Yeah, wouldn't be me,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: That's all I'll say.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: So Walter keeps trying to concoct a scheme to get
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Hildy to stay, and he's talking about this unfolding news
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: story that he wants her to cover about a man
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: named Earl Williams who shot and killed a and who
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: is about to be hanged for it, but how his
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: life could be saved if the newspaper interviews him and
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: publishes the interview to show that he's not of sound mind,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: which would get him off the hook because he has
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: been declared sane by a doctor. So if there's like
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: contradicting evidence to support he is not, you know, quote
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: unquote saying, they could save his life. Although there's going
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: to be another psychiatric evaluation of this man Earl Williams
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: right before the hanging, so keep that in mind, everybody. Now,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Hildy agrees to take the later train so that she
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: can do this interview with Earl Williams in exchange for
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Walter buying life insurance from Bruce so that Bruce will
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: get a sizeable commission. And Walter agrees to this, and
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: he also names Hildy his beneficiary for the life insurance policy.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: And we're like, also, he's like topless in the same
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: like he's just like, it's so weird, Like this, okay,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: we have not renamed it in five years, but this
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: feels like a Boushemi test thing to me, where it's like,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: if it's not Carrie Grant getting like shirtless doctors examinations
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: in the room with this other guy and like doing
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: all this stuff that is clearly designed to make him
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: feel threatened and uncomfortable, if it's not like the sexiest
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: movie star in the entire world conventionally doing that, it
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: is like more transparently villainous behavior. But if like, because
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: it's Kry Grant, it's easier to sell in the time
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: it comes out like, well, it's kind of funny because
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: it's carry Grant, right.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And all these dames watching the movie, we're so distracted by.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: His nipplesmaa humana.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Right, So anyway this is happening. Then there's it's like
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: something something certified check that Bruce has to put in
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: the lining of his hat.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of YadA YadA with the money moneys.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: I had to google. I'd googled bravely. I googled some stuff.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Whoa not about the money transfers, but about the the
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: nature of like what Earl Williams was listening to in
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the park. I had to like check what that was.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, So there's another thing about five hundred dollars in cash,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: which Hildy and Bruce have, and he gives that to Hildy, right,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: And it's all because she suspects someone aka Walter and
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: his minions are going to try to like rob Bruce,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: which does keep happening. Meanwhile, Hildy goes to see Earl
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Williams at the county jail. The story with him is
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: that he had lost his job, tried to get another
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: one was not able to. He was living on the
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: streets and one night he found himself with a gun
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: in his hands and he shot a cop, claiming it
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: was an accident.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Which the movie we'll get to goes out of the
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: way to say it was a black cop, yes, which
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: we'll get to, right, yeah.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so Hildy, while she's interviewing him, is like, oh, well,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: you heard a speech in the park about production for use.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: You know how objects have use, and a gun's purpose
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: or use is to be shot, So that's why you
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: shot the gun. And he's like, yeah, exactly, and the
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: girl right, And so Hildy writes up this interview to
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: be published in the Morning Post, which again makes him
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: seem not quite of sound mind, but it's to save
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: his life.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So she's lying for good question mark where she
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: is like basically saying he heard a socialist talk in
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: the park that confused him so much that he shot
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: a cop, right, and that's why he can't be yeah, executed.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Stretch, but you know, the pros from what we heard
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: was pretty compelling, right.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, So then we also meet a woman named Molly Molloy,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: a friend of sorts of Earl Williams. There's this group
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: of reporters at the Criminal Court's Office who have been
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: kind of like harassing this woman. They made up a
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: bunch of stories about how she's like desperately in love
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: with Earl in order to sell papers. In reality, she
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: barely knows him, but it's that she like showed him
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: kindness one night, and she's trying to advocate for him
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: to not be executed.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: And which would be impossible unless you were in love
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: with someone.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Right according to all of these men. Yes, Hildy leaves
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: and meets up with Bruce, who has been arrested for
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: steel a watch. But it seems like he was framed
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: because Walter has a mister Lovejoy type of undertaker of
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: a man servant, if you will, this guy named Louis
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: who frames people for stealing expensive accessories, just like how
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Cal framed Jack for stealing the heart of the Ocean.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: A wild guy to have on retainer.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, truly, and so Hildy finds this out and she
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: calls Walter to be like you double crossing, slimy, no good,
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: So and so I never want to see you again, right,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: And she rips up the story and is about to leave,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: but just then Earl Williams escapes from the county jail
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: during his final psychiatric evaluation before the hanging, and so
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: there's all this hubbub and a bunch of reporters are
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: trying to break the story of his escape. Hildy chases
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: down a guy named Cooley. I think he's the warden
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: of the jail.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: I think. So it's really honestly hard for me to tell,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: but it is really fun to watch hilde tackle his ass.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: That was, like, I just I remember, like the first
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: time I watched it. I don't know, there are certain
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: subversive like I just was not prepared to see a
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: woman in a movie this old be that active, I know, right,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: and like, but she like takes his ass down.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like linebacker style tackles his ass.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she Travis Kelsey. I don't know what position he plays.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Maybe she potentially Travis Kelsey's him. I don't know.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: We don't know, and we're not gonna look at him.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Not that kind of show. It's not that kind of show.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: No. Anyway, she's trying to get the story about how
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Earl Williams escapes, and she does, and she relays this
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: story to Walter. She also wants to be reimbursed for
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: the four hundred and fifty dollars she spent bribing, and
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Walter does pay her back, but with counterfeit money rats
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: and then he frames Bruce and gets him arrested again.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: He just keeps trying to put Bruce in jail and
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: it's working, but keep in mind the rule of threes.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: It's not brusus last time, and no it's not.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Then there are some scenes and I think this movie
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: is a bit guilty of getting too caught up in
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: the like logistics and plottiness of this case where it
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: should be I think, focusing more on Hildy and her
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: like skills as a reporter and journalists and stuff.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I agree with that. I feel like there's a lot
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: of like I mean, and I know that it's relevant
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: to the satire they're trying to get across, which is
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: like very rooted in the time, but yeah, it almost
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: feels like, I don't know, I feel like there's the
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: same with like a lot of classic novels where you're
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: like in the middle of like a really compelling story
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: and then it just switches to like agricultural law for
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: like forty pages. You're just like what you're like That
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: happens in a lot of Fressian novels. You're just like
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: reading about like a marriage that's failing, and then they're like,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: and here's what that has to do with agrarian law
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: in eighteen forty, And you're like, I'm sorry, that's none
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: of my business. That's not what I'm here for.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's right around here in the movie that
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: there are scenes where there's the mayor, I think, the sheriff.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: I think a bunch of men are talking about a
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: reprieve for Earl. I think this is like a pardon
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: and this guy named Joe Pettybone comes in to deliver
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: the reprieve that would get now Earl off the hook.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Now this guy is an MVP of the movie. For me, agree,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: it is unreal how and then I had to like
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: look the actor up and like, was what a thrilling? Like?
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Looking this actor up really delivers? Did you look him
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: up at all? No?
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I didn't.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, For first of all, he's Sneezy the dwarf. Whoa.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: He's like he was in so many Like he was
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: a prolific famous character actor of this time. He was
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: in something I know I had to watch in college,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Laureln Hardy's The Music Box. He's the guy who hates Pianos.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: He was in The Great Dictator this same year, like
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: he was just in a lot of hit movies, and
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: he got his comic timing is so good. He's so funny,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: and then he comes back and everyone's like, I don't
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: know that. That was my favorite part of seeing this
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: movie in person was that when he comes back at
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the end spoiler alert. Although it doesn't really make that
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: much of a difference, but he comes back at the
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: end and everyone's like, whoa, because he's so awesome. He's
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: such a good actor.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Great and Joe Pettibone is a great character name m hm. Anyway,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: he comes in to deliver this reprieve to the Mayor,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: but the may who wants Earl Williams to be executed,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: bribes Joe Pettibone not to actually like hand over this pardon.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Then Earl Williams shows up at the Criminal Court's office
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: with a gun. The only other person there at the
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: moment is Hildy, and she's able to get the gun
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: away from him. She offers to help him, and she
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: hides him in a roll top desk and then calls
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Walter and Bruce to let them know what's going on.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Shortly after a bunch of people show up, first Molly Molloy,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: then all of those crime reporters that we've been seeing
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: throughout the movie, then Bruce's mother, and they're all yelling
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: about where's Earl, where's this guy? Yeah, and the reporters
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: are bullying Molly. So she jumps out of a window
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: to kill herself.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: It's weird. I've seen this like alternatively described as like
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: an attempt to kill herself. I've also seen it as
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: an attempt to escape the situation. Because she's jumping from
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: a window. That isn't far. I don't buy that, but
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to mention that I've repeatedly seen that
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: moment characterized that way. Interesting.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I interpret it as she was intending to
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: die by suicide.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: That was my original assumption as well. I don't know
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: where that's coming from. I don't know if that's like
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: something that's noted in the script. I don't know if
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: that's like something from the source material. And I agree
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: with you. I just wanted to mention that I saw
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: it mentioned that way. I don't know what that is
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: rooted in. Exactly interesting.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Either way, we never see her again. We don't know
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: what happens to her really.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: And the movie does not care, which is too bad
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: because what the fuck?
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, So this causes a bit of a distraction,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: and right then Walter shows up with his Mignon Louis,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: who kidnaps Bruce's mother and takes her away. So now
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: it's just Walter in Hildy and Earl hiding in the desk. Yeah,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Hildy wants to leave to get Bruce out of prison
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: so that they can take the train to Albany, but
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Walter convinces Hildy to stay and help him break this story,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: which is also about government corruption in the mayor's office
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: or something. These details were a little foggy for me.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: In any case, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: that would like make her career, so Hildy is convinced.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: She starts writing the story. Then her fiance Bruce shows
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: up to be like are you coming with me or what?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: And she's like nah. Turns out I do want to
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: be in the newspaper business. So he's like all right,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: bye and he leaves a few moments later, after she
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: sees Walter trick and double crossed yet another person to
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: get what he wants. Hildy's like, wait a minute, what
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: have I done? I should be on that train with Bruce.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Then she finds out that Bruce's mother was maybe killed
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: in a car accident, and she feels responsible.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: I also feel like the joke of that scene is
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: that she is not upset about her almost mother in
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: law potentially getting hit. She is upset about herself. Yeah, yeah,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: which iconically selfish character for.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Sure, and that's who she is as a character. Again,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: she and Walter deserve each other.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: It's such a myra they But I also still feel
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: like Hildy's get getting a raw into the deal, you know.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: But whatever that's I'll tell they're dead.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: They're fictional characters. Then a bunch of men storm into
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: the room, possibly the sheriff. I don't I can't keep
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: track of any of these people, the crime reporter. Probably.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: They're demanding to know what's going on. They suspect that
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Hildy knows where Earl Williams is and they start manhandling her.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: So she pulls out the gun that she took from
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Earl and the sheriff is like, wait a minute, that's
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: my gun that Earl Williams stole. From me, so you
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: must know where he is. And then Bruce's mother shows up.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: She is not dead. She tells the sheriff that Hildy
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: and Walter are hiding Earl right there in the office.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: So they find Earl, and Hildy and Walter are arrested.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Poor Earl has almost suffer suffocated inside of the desk,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: which I do think is like, really, I don't know,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: we'll get to like the commentary on journalism in this movie,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: but like, you know, could there be a clearer slash
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: in like a screwball comedy, way funnier example of how
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: little the actual subject of the story matters to them
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: than the fact that they nearly let him suffocate inside
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: of a desk.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, So in any case, Hildy and Walter
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: are arrested for harboring a murderer. But then that guy
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Joe Pettybone shows up again.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: And everyone's like, who give him an oscar? He's so good?
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Oh god, what an amazing and then he kills it again.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: He steals the whole damn scene once again.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: For sure, because what happens here He has decided to
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: refuse the mayor's bribe.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Because of something his wife told him to do. Yes. Yeah,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: missus pettybone feminist only feminist hero in the movie never
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: meet her.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, He's there to deliver this reprieve pardon thing after all,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: and to not accept the mayor's bribe. So now Hildy
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: and Walter know about this bribery attempt and that the
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: mayor wanted Earl Williams to be because he figured it
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: would get him reelected. That information lets Hildy and Walter
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: off the hook. They are unarrested, and then Walter tries
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: to kind of show Hildy away, saying that she should
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: catch that train and go be with Bruce, and she's like, well,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: I want to stay and write the story. And so
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: she seems disappointed that Walter doesn't want her there. And
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: then Bruce calls he has been arrested for a third
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: time trying to spend the counterfeit money that they got
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: from Walter, which makes Hildy realize that Walter does love her.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: He was trying to get Bruce arrested so many times
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: because Walter's trying to actually win her back.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: This is so confusing because I was like, read, they're
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: so messy, Like it's confused because There are analyzes of
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: this movie, and this is how I read it the
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: first time I saw it, that somehow Hildy has been
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: playing this game of like forty D Chess to yield
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: this result. But there's too many There's too many X factors,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: like how could she count on the story of her
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: career falling into her lap at this exact moment, Like
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I don't. I feel like it maybe is somewhere in
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: between or more likely the writers were thinking about her
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: motivations very hard, but like how she first of all
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: evil of her to be like I am willing if
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: it is her intention to almost get married to someone else,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: to have Walter wake up and ask for her back,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: which it seems like she there is some desire that
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: she wants that to happen, but she wants it to
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: come from her. She doesn't want to be the one
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: to come back to him, so she has to orchestrate this.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: But I was like she in order to accomplish that,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: she would have to be willing to ruin Bruce's life,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: which she is. We know she is, yes RP. Bruce
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: rotting in jail for no reason. But and so even
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: if that's her plan, like it doesn't quite come together
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: as like this is a you know, I don't know,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: and then he is I think he is very conniving
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: in all of the beats of what he does. Manipulative
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: stuff actually does track a little cleaner than to me.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Then what Hildy would have to do to oh for sure?
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: But she I don't know. I don't know. I don't
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: quite understand what her plan is because what if he had, like,
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: wasn't at work that day, like, what would she do?
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I don't think. My read is that Hildy never has
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: a like, she has not premeditated trying to get back
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: together with Okay Walter, that she just gets duped the
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: way that he dupes everybody. I mean, I read it
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: as she was about to embark on a life that
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: she probably didn't actually want, but had convinced herself that
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: maybe I do want this, and then by being batter
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: in the newspaper business, she realizes, oh, I could not
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: actually leave this line of work in this lifestyle.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Which would be an interesting story if it wasn't orchestrated
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: by her conniving ex husband, right, but it's not. It's
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: so weird. It's such a weird movie. See, I guess
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: I always put like a little more. Maybe it's because
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I've conniving like tried to get Ment to say things
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: to me via a series of tricks in the past.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: I'm willing to admit that it's true. It often doesn't worry,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: usually doesn't work, but if it works once or twice,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: it's like it's addictive. But I guess I sort of
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: that because and again, this might just be like the
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: movie that feels like a movie of it all, But
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: the fact that she goes in person to me says
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: that she wants some reaction out of him, that she
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: wants to witness, because this could all be handled over
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: the phone, but it isn't. And the fact that she
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: brings Bruce with her like means that she wants him
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: to bear witness to some dynamic as well. Like I
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: don't think what she's doing is healthy or like commendable,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: but I do feel like she like wants some sort
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: of cathartic release from having shown up. Like, I think
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: you're totally right that I was giving an over you know,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: like planning on her part to say that she would
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: expect the rest to happen, that she would expect the
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: day to end with her her fiance in jail and
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: her re betrothed to her ex husband. But it did
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: feel like she went there for some sort of catharsis.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that critically because again I don't
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: know this stuff with Bruce that's like beyond the pale.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: That's fucked up to bring someone who, for all intents
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: and purposes, as far as we can tell, worst crime
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: is being boring and just like wave him around and
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: sort of open him up to all of this like
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: ridicule and abuse for no reason. But I do feel
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: like her showing up with him something's afoot.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: I think she has intentions that are maybe subconscious and sure,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: but I don't think she's actively necessary. I think it's
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: more of a passive, subconscious thing that she's going for.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: I think she's I think she's brat summer.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Well, let's take a break to discuss. So the movie
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: ends with Hildy realizing that Walter was getting her fiance
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Bruce arrested all these times because he was actually trying
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: to win her back, and he actually does love her,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: and this is his way of showing that he loves her. Yeah, yeah,
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: He's like, you're right, let's get married again. This time
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: we will go on a honeymoon to Albany. And she's like,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: sounds great, okay, bye.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: And then the movie's over so wild that the whole
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: time all she really wanted was to go to Albany.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: It's anyways, Yes, let's take a break, say, and we'll
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: be back in a moment. You hear h.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: And we're back.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: You hear you see you see. Gosh, this movie is
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: so weird and fun to talk about. I would like
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: to start, with your permission, with what I think this
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: movie is successful at. Okay, on a story basis. What
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: I think this movie is very successful at, and sometimes
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: at the expense of certain characters or certain story logic,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: is the satire of both politics and journalism of this time.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: But I also think it's very applicable to current day
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: politicians and journalists, kind of an evergreen thing to be like,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: the media and the politicians are corrupt, yes, and that
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: like occasionally justice can be achieved, but usually it's a
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: mistake or just happens to work in one or the
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: other's interest. I feel like that point is illustrated very
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: clearly in this movie, where there's no point in the
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: movie we're weird because I do think that there's a
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: lot of movies later on, I know, if we get
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: into like All the President's Men and stuff like that,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: that present journalism as wholesale, a noble profession that people
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: don't fuck up, you know, that cannot be bought, you know,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: all of this stuff where you know, journalism at its core,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: of course, is a noble endeavor, but it is very
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: often not performed that way.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Because it's carried out by humans, and hungman's are often
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: not on their best behavior.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Well and even more so there there's a number, I mean,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: there's two super famous movies in this one year span,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: like This and Citizen Kane address the you know, not
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: exactly yellow journalism, well, I mean Citizen Kane does, but
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: you know, flawed get the story versus get the truth
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: style journalism that was very prevalent in the late eighteen hundreds,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: and then there was another huge bout of yellow journalism
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: in the twenties and thirties, which I think it's more
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: likely these movies pulling from with you know, how much
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: of the Spanish American War was fueled by bad reporting,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: and that bad reporting was fueled by making sales and
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: competition and all this stuff that we still hear about
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: today because this is what happens in capitalist societies, and
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: the you know, fallout is normal people, which in this
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: movie is illustrated through Earl Williams, and that portrayal is
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: also flawed, but I feel like that comes across very
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: clearly where our romantic heroes are journalists, and so we
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: side with the journalists more than the politicians because we
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: know them better, they're hotter, we like them, for sure.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: But I appreciate about this movie that it doesn't, at
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: least for me, it doesn't really ever make any bones
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: about the fact that what they're doing is not true
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: or like ideal. Like they are kind of two con
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: artists that are very fun to watch and deserve each
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: other because you know they're both lying and in different ways.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: And that's interesting where it seems like, you know, Hildy
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: generally is lying in favor or at least in the
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: case of this story, is lying in the hopes of
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: achieving justice in a roundabout way. But still it's not.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: No one in this movie is doing good or like
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: laudable reporting. They're all lying, they're all making shit up,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: and I feel like it's yeah, it's like a direct
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: commentary on the state of media at this time. Also
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: because this movie comes out at the very beginning of
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: World War Two, so of course people are thinking a
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: lot about media accuracy of a war that's taking place overseas.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: And I don't know, I think that it works. And
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: the politicians are equally corrupt, and they try to, you know,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: buy off our king and it doesn't work. And by
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: our King, I, of course do mean Joe petty Bone.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: I do not mean Carry Grant. I mean Joe petty Bone,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: the hero of the movie. Yes, you should have been
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: on the poster, but yeah, I mean I on that
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: level it works for me. But on a feminist level,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: it very clearly doesn't.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: It sure doesn't. And I've got a lot to say
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: about it, starting with a little bit of context, which
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: is that this movie was adapted from a play called
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: The Front Page from nineteen twenty eight that was written
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: by Ben Hect and Charles MacArthur, which was also adapted
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: into a nineteen thirty one film of the same name,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: The Front Page. Those versions of the story have it
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: so the person who had quit their reporting job and
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: who the Carry Grant character, tries to recruit back into
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: the newspaper business is a man his girl. Friday gender
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: swaps it so that the reporter is a woman and
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: the ex wife of, you know, the editor in chief
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: of the newspaper. So this was a pretty significant change
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: that critics loved, audiences loved, Like this movie was a success,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: and so it's interesting that this story introduced a woman
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: into the picture and it was well received. But by
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: doing so and writing this character in the way that
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: she's written, leads to some problems.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, right, because like it sounds like an interesting choice
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: on it's I mean, it's weird. It's like a lot
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: of quote unquote gender swapped reboots of stuffing where it's like,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: I see what you're going for, but it doesn't quite
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: come together.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Doesn't because what happens is she has convinced herself that
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: she no longer wants to be a reporter. She doesn't
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: want to work for her ex husband anymore. She has
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: found another man as a romantic partner, and she's going
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: to go off and live a different type of life.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: So there's all these moments in the movie where people
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: are discussing Hildy quitting the newspaper game because she wants
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: to be a quote unquote woman, meaning she wants a
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: traditional domestic life. She wants to you know, make a home,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: have babies, have like a far more traditional gender woman's life,
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: especially for this era, right.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Which seems to be like consistent with how Howard Hawks
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: talks about women in all of his movies, that like
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: the concept of woman is a job, which is like.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Huh, okay, yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting that
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: the movie is acknowledging this like traditional gender role of
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: what a woman is expected to do and how for
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: a while and then again later on or you know,
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: throughout the movie. She is subverting this expectation because in
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: the backstory she was a skilled reporter. This is how
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: she met Carrie Grant's character. They get married, the marriage
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: doesn't work out, and she decides, Okay, I'm gonna find
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: a more stable slash traditional situation for myself. But she
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: gets kind of seduced by being a newspaper man and
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: falls back into it. And we're led to believe, based
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: on how the story ends, that she is getting back
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: together with Walter and that she will continue to be
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: a reporter for him. Right, So you have this story
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: now that seems like at first, it seems like it's
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: being set up so that like a woman is prioritizing
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: her career over a relationship with a man, which, as
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: we've always discussed, like, isn't inherently feminist, Like feminism is
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: all about choosing what you want for yourself and.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Right, it's all which is really muddled at this movie
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: because we don't it seems as if based on even
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: like the first conversation she has with Walter, which for
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: all of its flaws, I love to watch. I have
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: no idea how you block and act a scene like this.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: It's like how the fun Like, yeah, I guess I'll
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: just say it. Like the performances in this movie are
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: just so estere to me, where I just like don't
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: understand how they were physically possible. Right, But in that
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: whole first scene, like you kind of understand why they
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: got together. You definitely understand why they broke up, and
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: it seemed at least that in their marriage, like Hildy
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: wanted both but was not right. And you know, in
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: the very in the way that you know you're led
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: to believe it. You know, long after this movie comes out,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: it's you know, it's almost a radical choice that this
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: movie presents that you could have one or the other. Usually,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: you know, and in movies that come out ten years later.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's because this is like
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: a wartime movie, that it's like a more palatable concept
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: for a woman to be a working professional, and the
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: fact that I'm sure that it makes it seem like
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: it's more palatable for her to be a working professional
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: because she's married to someone who's doing the same thing,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: which you see a lot, But it seems like she's
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: always wanted both and is being forced to pick one
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: or the other and felt diminishing returns with her career
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: because of how her husband treated her and also her
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: opinions on how dirty a lot of the journalism was,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: and so she's choosing quote unquote the other thing, which
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: is not fair but probably reflective of the time. But
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: it just seems like she, you know, she dumped him
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: because of his inflexibility to have both with her, which
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: is a great reason to get divorced.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: True And again, if what she in her heart of
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: hearts once is to be with Bruce and to it
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: seems like she would be. She's describing her future life
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: as though she will be a homemaker and if you know, again,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: if that's what she wants, great, But there's this component
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: of this movie where you have all these men being like,
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: that's not what you actually want. You're a newspaper mayan.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Just accept it. And so there's this idea of like, oh,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: a woman doesn't actually know what she wants and men
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: are telling her what she does want, and they turn
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: out to be right, and it turns out that she
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: was tricking herself. And this is something that women are
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: so often accused of and assumed to not know what
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: women want with their romantic or personal life, what women
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: want with their career, with their own bodies, like yeah,
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: and so that was very frustrating that all of these
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: men who kept telling her like, you're never gonna succeed
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: in that lifestyle of like a domestic homemaker, you're in
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: the newspaper business. Just accept it.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: And the ending is left fairly ambiguous as to what
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: I meant. And I would guess, based on what we
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: know abou him that Walter probably hasn't moved on that,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: and that will be an unfortunate argument taking place in
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: front of Niagara Falls. But yeah, like I one of
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: the first things I wrote down, you know, like why
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: this movie critically, it is like all of the internal
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: logic of their relationship is based on no means yes,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: And her coming to you know, for the divorce is
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: actually like a test and her you know and like
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: taking in you know, human weirdness and blah blah blah.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: But like, yeah, the logic of the relationship depends on
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: when she says I don't want to be a reporter,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be married to you, that she
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: actually means try and change my mind, and you know,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: like and keep trying. And I mean she mentions repeated
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: like and it's like alluded to that he's heavily stalking her.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: He's calling her NonStop or something. She is like actively
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: shielding her present life because he doesn't know Bruce exists,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: you know, and it's like she's built this whole life
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: without him, and so you know, on its face, it's
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: just like he's again and if you BOUSHEMI test it,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: It's like he's stalking her. He is not respecting her boundaries.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: He is assuming his conception of her is more accurate
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: than what she is telling him to his face, like
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: it's just the whole relationship depends on him hearing no
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: and assuming yes, and then the fact that the logic
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: of that ends up to be basically correct is very
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: clearly demonstrated that this movie was men top to bottom
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: because it's like a fantasy. I feel like it's like
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: a you know, sort of a traditionally masculine fantasy that
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: no means yes and that your wife who divorces you
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: secretly wants to, you know, like test you and doesn't
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: actually you know, blah blah blah blah, and wants to
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: do exactly what you want her to do. And the
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: fact that this story ends, which you know, I know
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: is accurate to the time most likely, but that you know,
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: this still ends with she's his girlfrida. She is his employee,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: his girl, Yeah, his girl, but like that's like his
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: go to reporter. She's his employee still, and so it's
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: just like she is. I don't understand other than a
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: re affirmation that I'm sure he's lied about the thing
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: is like, I don't know. I just feel for Hildy,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: even though she is quite evil and like Bruce just
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: catches so many strays. That is, I feel for Bruce
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: big time. I'm like, buddy, buddy, he'll be fine or not.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Maye where he's in jail forever. Uh.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: He seems to get out and go off to Albany's movie.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Gel, but like, I don't know, It's just I feel
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: like he's duped her yet again. I mean, he has
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: duped her yet again. And I don't think that we
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: have any reason to believe that Walter wouldn't just say
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: anything he needed to to get what he wanted, which
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: is to get Hildy back. I don't believe that he's
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: like and yes, I am fully supportive of you being
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: a mother and a journalist, Like I just I just
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: don't see it.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: You know, it would be one thing if over the
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: course of this movie he realizes he needed to be
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: more flexible and less horrible as a person and more
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: respectful of her wishes and boundaries and stuff like that.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: But he doesn't learn anything, and instead we just you know,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: see him manipulating and exploiting and deceiving people. He makes
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: sexist remarks, he makes xenophobic, anti immigrant remarks, He threatens
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: a woman with violence on the phone, He makes ablest remarks.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: You know, it's just the list goes on for all
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: of the horrible things.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Do I expect more from a nineteen forty movie. No, However,
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: I mean it's it's just so tricky too, because it's like,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: I don't think that we're supposed to believe that these
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: are morally upstanding people, but because they're played by the
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: most charismatic movie stars of the day, you're still like
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: kind of permissive.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: You're rooting for You're meant to root for.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: Them exactly exactly, and you know that's a complicate especially
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: when it's a movie for adults. It's like, yeah, you
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: can root for someone who kind of sucks because you
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: know your brain is fully developed you can handle it.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: But but it is, you know, it is telling that
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: it's like you're told visually with time, with who's cast
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: with all this stuff, who is more worthy of being
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: rooted for when it's just like Bruce for sweep Beruce.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: This this brings me to the idea of the hawksy
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: and Woman, which I'm pretty sure we did not discuss
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, although.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: That was eighty four years ago, so we don't.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: It's true a movie I remember quite liking. I haven't
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: seen it in a while. Uh, and one that I
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: definitely feel like falls in under the category of Howard
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: hawks being like their job is woman because they're like
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: almost women in like a I don't know, they're just
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: they talk to each other like, I mean, like friends,
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: but also like weirdly like they're doing a job and
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: the job is a woman. We're right.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: Were they dancers? I don't remember that movie at all.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: I remember them being on like a cruise ship at
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: one point, but yeah, I could not say anything else
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: That's okay, let me pull up. So there was a
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: great piece I read in Little White Lies Rip. I
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: believe that sort of unpacks this trope and why it
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: can be very frustrating for you know, feminists who watches
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: movies and feel like oh oh oh, because it's like
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: for nineteen forty Hilty does feel pretty remarkable in terms
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: of what you get. On the surface. She is very active.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: She's like nagging the hell out of any man she
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: comes into contact with. She very often gets the upper hand.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: She's an active reporter. She tackles someone like stuff that
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: you're not used to seeing, or it is stuff that
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: at least that I wouldn't expect in a movie from
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: nineteen forty where you know, and into the fifties and
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: on and on, where it's like you sort of expect
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: a degree of traditional wives and mothers, passivity and hysteria
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: quote unquote that you don't get with Hilthy and I
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: feel like it's almost like you're You're like, oh, then
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: she must be a feminist character. How Yeah. This is
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: a great piece by Sarah Cleary called who is the
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Hawxyan Woman. I'd like to share a couple passages from it.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: That also explains where this term came from, because the
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: term of the hoxy and woman didn't exist until nineteen
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: seventy one. So from this piece. Film critic Naomi Wise,
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: who coined the term Hoxyan woman in nineteen seventy one,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: argued that in Hawks' cinema, quote, good girl and bad
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: girl are fused into a single heroic heroine unquote. This
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: assertion is certainly true of Bonnie, a different movie, whose
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: worldliness and irreverence might have easily marked her as a
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: fallen woman. In another film of the nineteen thirties, upon
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: her arrival in fog shrouded Baranka, she isn't at all
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: scandalized by the sexy dancing she happens upon in the
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: down and Dirty saloon. Instead, she sings along with the
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: band and shoots the dancers a cheeky aok hand gesture.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: Despite the customary mid Atlantic accent, She's assault of the
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: earth girl from Brooklyn, moving on in the piece a
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: little bit. It's endings like this talking about the ending
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: of His Girl Friday, which usually put the kebash on
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: reading Hawks's heroines as feminist figures, tempting as those readings
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: may be. Quote, it's been said like there's a new
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: women's lib unquote, Hawks told a German documentary crew in
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven. But they don't talk as much as
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: the people today do. Despite this characterization, Hawks's leading ladies
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: are usually rather for both articulate and witty, none more
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: so as Rosalind Russell and His Girl Friday. His Girl
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Friday is frustrating when viewed from a feminist's perspective, in
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: that it comes tantalizingly close to being a feminist work.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: Russell caughts a thoroughly modern silhouette, and one gets the
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: sense that Hawks sincerely believes that she's a tough nut
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: who belongs in a tough business. She ought to be there.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: He does, not, however, trust her to make her own decisions.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: She continually asserts and reasserts that she wants to quit
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: journalism to settle down with her new dul fiance, Bruce,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: but Walter wants her back in his newsroom. Not to
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: mention his marital bed. Grant plays Walter so irresistibly, and
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: his chemistry with Russell is so sparky that one hardly
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: notices quite how cruel his manipulation of Hilty really is. Moreover,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: we want to see Hildy' scuffle and snoop her way
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: to a big story. If we squint, it almost looks
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: like emancipation. The piece goes on, I would I would
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: recommend checking it out. But what the Hoxy and woman
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: kind of boils down to that really reminded me of
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: many movies we've covered that feel like kind of a
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: feminist bait and switch over the years, is that Hoxy
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: and women are generally guys girls. Which is Hilty to
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: a tea you know she's to some you know she
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: is She's a woman who is successful in a world
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: of men. She can hang with the guys, She can
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: walk into the room of like crooked journalists and say
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: like the boy, and she is accepted. She is respected
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: in this world, which is what is remarkable about her
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: in the opinion of the writer and the director, But
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: there's no follow through on like what is she like
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: with other women? We get very little and we get
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: again more than zero, which was surprising to me, but
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: like it's just very like proto guy's girl stuff. And
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: at the end she is still at the you know,
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: operating at the whims of a man in a patriarchal system,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: whether she realizes that or not. So it's like the
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: illusion of feminism. It gets so like I totally get
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: because when I got when I walked away from this movie,
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: I was like, was that And then when you see
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: the end, you're like, oh, never mind, uh right.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: No, But I totally agree that if you're watching this
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: maybe only kind of half paying attention, or if you
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: don't know that much about feminism modern feminism, you'd be like, wow, again,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: a movie about a woman who prioritizes her career that
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: she's really good at over a relationship with a boring
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: man whooh feminism, but because she ends up with a
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: different man who is way worse of a person and
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: who manipulates her and everyone around him. And again it's
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: like this idea of like, well, you know, women actually
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: can't have it all. So feminism looks like women in career,
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: not women as a homemaker or like woman doing domestic things,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: and that is not what feminism is. Again, it's all
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: about choice, and it's all about choosing what works best
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: for you. But I understand why you'd have the notion of, oh, well,
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: choosing career over domestic things, Well, that's feminist because women
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: were expected to take on this role of traditional domestic homemaker,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: and so choosing career, which is the opposite of what
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: women were traditionally expected to do under the patriarchy, well
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: that must be feminist. And that is not the case.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: But that is sort of the logic, right, I think
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: this movie is operating under.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: Totally like it's like and I understand, like, particularly if
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: you're a viewer of the time, why if you would
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: if you reactionally would be like this is way more
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: than I'm used to, Like, sure, she gets to talk,
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: but I mean, you know, also movies of this day,
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: it's weird, like how World War two movies and movies
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: of the forties like women generally do tend to have
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: more agency when like Katherine Hepburn is at her peak
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: of fame and all of this stuff, and then there
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: is like a pretty severe pullback of that in the
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: fifties as women's roles changed. So this kind of is
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: the most you know, agency you might see a woman
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: with in a big movie for some time in the
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: early forties. There's movies that are you know, still all
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: made by men, but you do have like more you know,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: women that have there's a dual protagon. I would still
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: argue that Hildy is the protagonist of this movie. She
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: gets more screen time than Carry Grant. I would argue, like, so, yeah,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: and she is driving the narrative more. You know, he
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: is doing his Greu shit. He's very gru code, he's
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: doing evil stuff. Grew interesting, nicer to his wife than
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: Carrie Grant is in this movie. Interesting. He does have
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: a Kevin yes, But yeah, that, like, she you know,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: is driving the narrative. She has a job, she's good
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: at it, she's respected for it, she's desired professionally, not
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: just as a but all of that is undercut by
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: the fact that like that, you know, this movie does
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: not suggest any radical ideas in terms of like a
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: woman can have quote unquote at all. It just doesn't.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: But I still think for nineteen forty it's it's doing.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: It's doing a lot. I didn't think it was going
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: to do. Agree, But it's not a feminist movie. Sorry, folks, no,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: it's not.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: In my research about this movie because again, when Howard
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: Hawks got his hands on this play slash screenplay and
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: was like casting the movie, he originally intended for it
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: to be a pretty faithful adaptation to the original source
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: material as far as like having both the interesting editor
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: in chief and the reporter be both men. But when
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: he was doing auditions, Howard Hawks had his assistant, who
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: was a woman, read the reporter's lines in the auditions,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: and he was like, wait a minute, I like the
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: sound of this. I like that it's you know, a
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: woman with those interesting these lines. And so it was
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: rewritten for the reporter to be a woman, and then
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: they made the changes that the backstory was that they
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: were formerly married now divorced, and which is.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: Also like, oh, you know, there's no other way to
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: get a woman into the story than his wife and
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: him to some extent.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: Right, So that's a little bit more of the context.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: A little bit more is that in his comedies, Howard
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: Hawks would often let his actors improv some of their lines.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: So this ability to improv allowed Rosalind Russell to basically
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: she hired a ghost writer to punch up some of
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: her dialogue because she felt that she didn't have nearly
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: as many like good lines or little quips or whatever
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: as Carrie Grant was given, because the screenwriters were like, well,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: women are boring. The man should get all the good lines.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: And I didn't know this, This is so cool.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, She talks about this in her autobiography entitled Life
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: is a Banquet. So she was upset that she wasn't
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: given as good of dialogue as the man. So she
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: hired a ghostwriter to punch up her lines. And because
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: they were allowed to improve a little bit, she would
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: not really improv because they had been pre written for her,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: but she would slip in these lines. And the only
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: person who knew this was Carrie Grant, and so he
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: would like go to her on set every day to
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: be like, what have you got today? Meaning like, what
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: did the ghostwriter write for you for this scene?
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: Oh? So, and so he was like supportive of it
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: and seem like he did.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: He didn't seem to like nark on her at least.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: That's so that's lovely mm hmm.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: I mean sucks that she was not written to have
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: better lines in the original script, but cool that she
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: had the freedom to kind of and the instinct to
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: have better lines written for her.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: That's fascinating. I wonder how common a practice that would
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: have been. I mean that that makes a lot of
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: sense because you have so few women working as screenwriter.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: I mean it speaks to completely to how much diversity
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes makes a difference that for the fact
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: that she had to out of pocket, I'm assuming hire
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: a ghost writer to write her better lines. I mean
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: money well spent ultimately shouldn't have been money she had
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: to spend. But like she I feel like, you know,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: Carrie Grant, his character is evil and if you can
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: accept that, I think his performance is really really funny,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: like there's like so many expressions or like Deliverered, I mean,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: they're just both so good. The only person that is
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: better than them at any moment is Billy Gilbert Joe
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Petty Bone, who just drowns them all and kills them yeah,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: but I mean that's that's fascinating. And Rosalind Russell is
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: in another movie that we've been threatening to cover for
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: years that came out the year before The Women. She's
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: one of the women. Wow, that's fascinating. Yeah, we have
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: a couple other women in this movie, which again was
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: brave of the filmmakers. But now knowing that, that's fascinating
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: because you can tell that the rest of the women
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: in this movie are reading the dialogue is written, not
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: a criticism of them. No one should have to hire
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: another writer to write their lines better. But the other
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: three characters you have are I think the most prominent
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: is Molly molloy. You have Bruce's his mom, and you
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: have a character who appears very briefly named Evangeline I believe,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: who is one of Walter's minions who he sends her again.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: She's hanging out with the with Kevin's. It seems like
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: they're both minions on retainer for various illegal hijinks Walter
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: wants to pull.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: Louis is the Kevin le Mignon. I think this other
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: this woman the not to reduce a woman to her
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: hair color, but that's what everyone else in the movie does.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: But these she's blonde woman.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hawks also has a whole thing about blondes.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, gentlemen prefer them. Obviously, it's been said she
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: is I guess she's the Stewart or the Bob of
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: the group of the uncle. Yeah, and she I mean,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: I guess I mean she is deployed in a gendered way, right,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: because she is sent to seduce Bruce, seduce Bruce.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: Bruce, Yeah, to get him arrested a second time, basically
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: like and I guess Hildy knows that this is a
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: part of Walter's minion playbook. Who knows if she has also,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: you know, used It's unclear that because we only see
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: Hilldy returning to reporting, and we don't see what she
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: was like before, it's unclear how on board she is
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: with this stuff. I'm assuming, mih that's the feeling I
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: was gonna. Yeah, I still wouldn't say she's an ethical
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: reporter because the only reports we sear writing are fake,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: but at least you know there is moral intent behind
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: them than a lot of the men she works with.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: But yeah, we are given a name for this character.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: Carrie Grant kind of mumbles it, so I had to
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: look it up, but her name is Evangeline. But then
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: she's just referred to as that blonde lady that is
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: paid to seduce people. So they go to jail question Mark,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: So not much going on there. I would say Bruce's
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: mom's character is treated in a pretty ageist and gendered way.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: You know, she's the hysterical mother even though she's right.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: Obviously she's like which I mean it is? Is it
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: pity women against women? Yes, but Hildy is being despicable
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: to her son. Why would she side with Hildy in
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: this situation? She's just like, you are a little brat,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: and she's like me, and then she gets kidnapped. She's like, well,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: it's brat's summer, so what do you expect nineteen forty
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: brat summer.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: I would also argue that the way Molly Molloy jumps
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: out of a window is leaning into like women be hysterical.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: Tropes, and that matches any read I think whether it
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: is being characterized as an attempt on her own life
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: or if it's being like as like a hysterical attempt
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: at escape, either way it leans into tropes around women.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: And again I think that like Molly Malloy's character works
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: with the satirical bend to this story where she you
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: know her and earl her in a more gendered way,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: which I feel like is at least an attempt or
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: maybe accidental commentary on how women are treated in reporting
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: of like, oh, she's a woman who he knew, so
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: of course we're going to make up that there was
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: like this whole affair and they're in love and blah
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: blah blah, and then they lie to her and say, well,
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: that's what Earle said when it's clear that that's not true.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: Like and so she is. I can appreciate her character
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: where she is just beside herself that there is no
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: she cannot get anyone to take her seriously. She is
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: very much like upon in this narrative, a narrative that
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: she's on board with because she doesn't want Earle to
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: be killed, but you know, like no one is listening
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: to her, and the closest she can get to anyone
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: listening to her is when Hilty takes her aside and
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: takes her out of the room and sort of extracts
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: her from this really traumatic, upsetting situation she's in. But
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: even Hildy doesn't really do much to know. I think
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: she like calms her down, but doesn't do anything to
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: meaningfully alter that narrative. And we know because of how
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: you know like she what we know about Hildy. The
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: one thing I'll say for her is that she she
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: doesn't reproduce the sexist here's a woman, Earle knew, they're
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: in love, they have a loved as blah blah blah.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: She does more accurately characterize Molly as someone who just
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: really cares about him and would be very upset if
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: he was killed by the government, which which is more true.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: And that is like the I think, the most sort
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: of noble thing that Hildy does in the course of
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: the movie. But Hildy is still despicable in that, Like
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: her reporting is less bad than everyone else's, it's more
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: empathetic than everyone else's, but she still leaves this guy
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: to die in a desk, you know, after it makes
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: sense too, Like there's a part of like, at least
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: I like there there's a hyjinx portion where no one
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: can know Earls in the room because he'll be arrested
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: and then he'll be killed. Okay, fine, he has to
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: stay in the desk for that portion, but they also
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: leave him in the drawer while they're just having a
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: conversation about how she's going to win an award for
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: writing this, and while they're like hashing out their relationship,
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: like he is suffocating. So I don't know. But with Molly,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: she's I don't know. Molly's just underwritten and under thought. Yeah.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: I feel for her character because and I think that
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: like she is presented as a character who is worthy
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: of consideration, but like the writing just isn't there and
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: it falls into tropes around hysteria, and then ultimately the
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: plot does not care what happens to her after this
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: late And part of the reason that we don't know
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: what her motivation narratively is for jumping out of the
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: window is because we never hear about her again, right, yes,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: because I think that all they say is like, oh,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: we think she's going to make.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: It, Oh she moved, she wasn't killed, and yeah, we
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: don't know. We don't know if she survives or not.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: I do like the monologue she gives to that group
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: of crime reporters where she's like, oh, you wouldn't give
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: me the time of day or listen to me until
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: it's like serving you and your story. Now you're listening
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: to me, that's some bullshit hypocrisy, and that's really cool.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: But then again, two seconds later she jumps out of
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: a window and we never see her again.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: So it's all very mellow, dramatic like the way it
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: plays at even though I yeah, I agree like that
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: what she's saying makes a lot of sense, and I
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: feel like, unfortunately, is still very applicable to true crime
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: reporting that you see today, which just is so largely
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: base and scary, with like the lack of consideration it
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: gives to anybody dead or alive. So it's definitely like
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: relevant commentary. But again it's like, because it's like written
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: and orchestrated by men, it just seems like they can't
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: help themselves. They as far as Earl himself goes, I
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like there are some tropes around
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: the working class in general at play, because the two
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: working class characters, or I guess the three working class
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: characters we get to know are Molly Molloy, who is
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: treated I think unkindly in a more gendered way, and
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: then with Earle and our boy Joe petty Bone, they're
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: just made out to be. They are made out to
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: be sympathetic, we're not rooting against them, but they're also
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: not made out to be very smart correct, and are
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: just being actively manipulated by politicians and journalists. And I
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: guess what I can say is that both of those
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: characters do seem aware that that's happening, because Joe Pettybone
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: comes back and is like, wait, no, fuck you, you
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: know I will I will not be bought.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: But he is presented as being like quite doofy.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: Exactly exactly I mean, And that's this actor's bread and butter.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: And I do feel like the two working classmen that
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: we get to know are presented to be pretty malleable
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: and like easily manipulated and unintelligent, which is just never
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: a trope I like to see. It is I think
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: an attempt at commentary, but it certainly like rubbed me
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: very much the wrong way. The way that it's The
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: plot goes out of its way to say that Earl,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: like we are led to believe that Earl, you know,
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: did shoot someone by mistake, but they go out of
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: their way to say that it was a cop who's
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: a person of color. I think we're led to believe
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: a black cop.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the language they use, which is you know, very outdated,
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: but it's specific to black people, so.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: Right, And so they they mentioned that, and then the
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: attempt at commentary that follows is that politicians will want
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: to hang Earl whether he's guilty or not because they
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: value the black vote, which I don't know. I see
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: what they're going for, but it just is like, not,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: it's not well done at all, especially because there are
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: no movie where no black people.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: Black characters having any perspective on the matter whatsoever. Every
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: single actor and character we see is a white.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: Person, so right. So it's like, you know, bringing race
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: into the conversation at all when there's not going to
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: be any attempt which I don't know, this is Hayes
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: code era, but it's still just like if if you
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: are unable or unwilling to cast any people of color
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: in your movie, that doesn't need to be there. I
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: don't know. It just felt like a throwaway attempt to
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: commentary that didn't sit very well with me.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very of the era, Yeah, dud, do you have
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: anything else you wanted to talk about?
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think so.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: Ultimately, I feel like the real tricky thing for me
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: with this movie is making Hildy's career that she does
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: seem to love inextricable with this marriage that she's being
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: coerced into re entering. Just makes this, you know, at
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: least from an analytical point, I still think it's a
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: blast to watch. I'll watch it again. It's a movie
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: to watch with soup, I think. But yeah, as a
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: feminist work, it just making those two things inextricable from
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: each other. It just, you know, it's unfortunate because I
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: think it is preventable.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: I think there could be a modern retelling of this
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: that using a lot of the same kind of foundational
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: story beats, could be a feminist text, but this was
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: nineteen forty, so it was never really gonna happen that way.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I do. I mean, it's like I also
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: just like I'm a sucker for a movie about girl reporters,
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: girls spies, blah blah blah, Like I'd love it all.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: I'm a sucker for it. And it's a bummer when
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, you know, going into nineteen a
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: movie made at this time, you don't really expect a
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: feminist masterpiece, but it's this movie feels like it's teasing
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: you with the fact that, with some adjustment, it could
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: have been way closer. Yeah.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and for all we know, it might have been
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: considered a feminist masterpiece in nineteen forty.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: For the time it might have been, because I mean, yeah,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: hard to.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: Say, we're way too young, we would We don't know
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: if we were.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: We weren't alive in nineteen forty.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this movie, as we've already hinted at, does
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: pass the Bechdel test.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: Kind of very fleetingly, but in a way that does
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: feel plot relevant because it's between Hildy and Molly, and
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: those those are consequential interactions, but they're brief.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: Right, And then when Hildy speaks to her mother in law,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: Missus Bruce whatever, Missus Baldwin, I think it's always about Bruce.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's never gonna work.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: I agree.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: As far as our nipple scale, where we rate the
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: movie zero to five nipples based on examining the movie
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: through an intersectional feminist lens, I'll give it like a
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: one point five, maybe a two, because of what it
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: seemed to be attempting to do. As far as like, look,
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: a woman can have a career but it's presented as
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: though she doesn't actually know what she wants, and it
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: takes a bunch of men to convince her what she wants,
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: because a woman can't be trusted to know what she
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: desires for herself and her life. Oh and the fact
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: that as I was watching this and seeing all of
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: the horrible things that Walter the carry Grant character does
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: and says repeatedly in every single scene he's in, I
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: was like, if she ends up with him, I'm gonna
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: be so pissed, even though I knew that was bound
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: to happen. And then she does, and I was so pissed.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: But by the end, I'm not even convinced that she
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: deserves better. Now, that's not something she does deserve better,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: But it's like she does so many garbage things. I
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know. It's the way she treats Bruce,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: not me being team Bruce, but like unforgivable. The crime
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: of being boring does should not lead you in jail
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: three times in a day.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, left by the person who was
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: supposed to marry you tomorrow and all his money is
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: gone and his money's gone.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: The crime of being boring, unreal.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: The other thing I have to say about this movie
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: is so Howard Hawks was. He was very interested in
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: like overlapping dialogue. He thought it resembled the way people
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: actually speak more realistically, which is true. Yeah, but he
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: was determined to break the record for fastest film dialogue,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: which was a thing I guess, the Olympics of film dialogue.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: He wanted to get the gold medal. And I am
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: reminded of a quote from one of my favorite movies
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: which I just rewatched last night, Jurassic Park. And here's
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: what I'll say. The director was so preoccupied with whether
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: or not he could he didn't stop to think if
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: he should trying to break this record for fast It
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: gave me such a I had such a headache after
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: watching this. I didn't know what anyone was saying. I
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: couldn't parse out anything, so headache inducing.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: Different strokes Baby at think air Rocks bring it back.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: I don't mind like quippy, fast back and forth dialogue,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: but there are some scenes where ten people are talking
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: all at once, and I just I was like, to
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: what end? I can't I don't know what any of
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: you say.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: Making Jamie smile, Marylyn frown. Wow. Another classic episode of
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: the Basketball Cast.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: So true anyway, I'll give it one and a half nipples.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: I think it seemed feminist ish for the time, for
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: nineteen forty, but obviously nearly one hundred years later doesn't
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: really cut the mustard. Is that an expression?
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: I think it's an old timey It sounds like an
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: old timey expression.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: Appropriate. And I'll give one nipple to Rosalind Russell, and
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: I'll give my half nipple to Joe pettibone.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: King of him, King Joe Pettybone. I'm going to get
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: I'm going to do this, but done the middle. I'm
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: gonna give this two and a half nipples. I think that,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: you know, taking into consideration the time, the two and
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: a half nipples are cleanly cut off by the fact
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: that really the whole of this character's false, like Hildy's
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: false liberation is you know, her being kind of pulled
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: back in by this manipulative x husband and predatory system. However,
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: for the time, I think you're seeing so much of
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: you know, like women's agency and capability that wasn't considered
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: kind of verboten in a lot of earlier movies. There's
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: no time in this movie, which I feel like also
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: in any sort of I mean, this is a rom com,
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: but it's also a crime movie, which is interesting. But
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: we don't see Hildy ever damseled in any way. We
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: see her actively moving the story forward. She's really good
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: at her job. I mean, even though a lot of
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: this is surface level, I think for the time the
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: surface level is pretty subversive, and I like that Rosalind Russell.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: I hate that she had to resort to having to
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: pay someone under the table to give her good lines,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: but I love that her performance, I mean, almost against
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: the wishes of the creatives. She steals the show except
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: when Joe Pettibone is in the room, and then she
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: loses those scenes. But she, for me, like steals every scene.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: She's in such an amazing performance. I love movies about
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: women journalists, so kind of a sucker for this stuff
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: plenty to be desired. You couldn't call it a feminist movie,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: but I do think that it's subversive, and I want
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: to give it some credit for I think really effective
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: and unfortunately still relevant commentary around how politics and media
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: are inextricably linked in a way that makes it impossible
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: to get justice on fair terms. So I'm going to
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: give it two and a half nibbles. I'm going to
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: give one to Rosalind Russell. I'm going to give one
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: to Slim Keith, who Howard Hawks was married to, I
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: believe at the tie or he was dating at the time,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: who was just a really fascinating historical figure who later
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: gets entrenched into the world of Truman Capote's Swans, which
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: was there was a terrible mini series about earlier this year,
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: but a really great book that I read. And she's
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: just like a fascinating person who was said to be
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: sort of an inspiration for a lot of haxy and
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: women as someone who was very self possessed and assertive
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: and cool. And I will give the other half nipple,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: of course to King Joe Patty Bone, mister Sneeze himself.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: We love him. It is ultimately his movie.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no arguing that.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: And that is his Girl Fridays, Wow Friday. I know
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: it's because I would say his his fems on Friday
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: was what I was going to say about us.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: I think it's about the restaurant franchise Fridays, His Girl Fridays.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: Tgi Friday Wow Wow. And it makes you think it does.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: You can watch this movie also. If you haven't seen
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: this movie, I would still recommend it. I mean, and
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: you can watch it really wherever because it's in the
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: public domain. I watched it on to b Wow. To
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: be or not to be?
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: That is the question.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: I just love watching eighty commercials, so I watched it
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: on to be. But you can watch it like ad
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: free in a lot of places. All right, Caitlin, I
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: guess that that that's that's a case cracked. Let's get
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: married in Niagara Fall.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: That's all, folks. This is not a Learney Tunes. I
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: don't know why I said that.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: Well, if you'd like to hear more of our basic
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: reparte right up there with Howard Hawks's Best, you could
• 1:24:49
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• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: which will get you access to two new episodes a
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: month with Kaitlyn and myself about frequently requested episodes, often
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: on a ridiculous the Way Makeup, and it also gives
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: you access to over one hundred and fifty episodes in
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: our back catalog. How do you like that?
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: I love that. Yes, thank you so much for listening.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: You can also follow us on Instagram. At Bechdel Cast
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: you can buy our Little merch designed by Jamie Loftus.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: Ever heard of her, The Little merch Maid. Yeah, I'm sorry,
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: I'm riding on this negative COVID test. Let's get silly.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go see trap.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: Wow Yeah Merch at teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: Cast and we'll see you back here next week. Yes see,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: so long, So long, folks, see yes see, bye bye.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeart Media, hosted
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: by Caitlin Drante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman,
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: edited by Moe laboord. Our theme song was composed by
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: Merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: to Aristotle Assevedo. For more information about the podcast, please
• 1:26:20
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