Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / Touring Through Time: Classic Cars, Road Rallies, and the Spirit of Packard

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Touring Through Time: Classic Cars, Road Rallies, and the Spirit of Packard · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

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Break fix podcast is all about capturing the living history of people from
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all over the auto sphere, from wrench turners and racers to artists, authors,
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designers, and everything in between.
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Our goal is to inspire a new generation of petrol heads that wonder.
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How did they get that job or become that person?
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The road to success is paved by all of us because everyone has a story.
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Hey everyone.
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Crew chief Eric here.
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And with me today is special guest Gunther Hoyt, director of the colonial community.
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Classic Car club and a prominent member of the Old Dominion
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Region of the Packard Club.
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Today we'll be discussing the Motorsports discipline called Road Rally, also known
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to some of you as touring or Jim Kana.
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We'll also dig into what it's like to own a classic car in today's computerized
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digital era, as well as getting to know Gunther a little bit better.
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As some of our listeners might recall.
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I spent the better part of a week last year playing journalists and cameraman
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for the classic car club tour in Virginia, where I was fortunate to spend
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a lot of time and laughs with Gunther.
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With that, welcome to Break Fix.
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It's good to be here and I hope I can shed some light on our amusing activity.
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Absolutely.
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So let's get into it, right?
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Our, our membership and our fan base is all about motorsports, right?
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And so motor, the definition of motorsports for us is really anything
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with an engine and a way to steer it.
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So that could be boats, it could be airplanes, it could be cars, but
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within that there's a multitude of disciplines and most people recognize.
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The more popular ones be it circuit racing like formula one or net
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oval racing like nascar autocross kart racing drag racing Etc.
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All the stuff that's publicized on tv But what most people don't realize is scca
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for many many years has an officially sanctioned discipline known as road
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rally Which is very close to exactly what you guys do in the classic car club.
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So I wanted to start off by Having you describe what it is You to go on tour,
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to go on one of these road rallies, what the expectations are and what,
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why someone would want to go on that.
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Sure.
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Let's speak about classic car packer club.
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It's about the same activity and usually has the same structure.
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Number one, what we try to do is organize around a hotel.
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that is convenient.
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And that means easy parking, quiet road, so that we don't enter a
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five lane crazy highway right away.
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Usually we try to find a place that has some historic charm to it.
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And from this base hotel, we fan out to interesting sites, be they the
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Museum of the Horse in Middleburg, or a vineyard, or in some cases
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a battlefield, usually Civil War.
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On some occasions, we specialize only in a particularly charming stretch
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of highway, sometimes with some real hill climbs, and lots of curves, and
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other times just rolling flat hills.
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We create a log book for these tours with very carefully laid out routes
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and mileage indicated, but we do not have the discipline of a classic
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rally with clocked stops and precision log books and all the rest of it.
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This is a bit more casual, relaxed, cowboy style touring in the age
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of the, uh, the good iPhone.
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Of course, you can, you could just put Google Maps on and that
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will take care of your logbook and tells you pretty much where to
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turn right, left, and go straight.
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It was particularly fortuitous that Alan had organized your group as part
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of our Spring Tour, because it gave us a whole new dimension, including looking
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at the opportunity to drive on a track.
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I will say one of the high points of my touring career was in
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a 1929 Hoop Roadster Packard.
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Uh, racing around Lime Rock, so it's not like we are allergic
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to this type of activity.
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Quite the opposite.
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It brings out the boy in all of us, certainly the boy racer.
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And I can, I can, I can attest to that because I remember when, during the tour
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last year, when you and Alan swapped cars and we had, we had probably the slowest
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drag race I've ever been involved in between, you know, Your super eight and
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the thing That's right That's right.
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And that's part of the charm too that people trade cars To to give
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each member an opportunity to try out your car and we exchange ideas about
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driving characteristics And mechanical condition and give each other tips on
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why don't you try this or try that?
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So there's a great deal of technical exchange as well as driving
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experience, trying to come up with interesting events during these tours.
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Since we tend to tour mostly in Virginia, after as many years as
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we've been doing it, you tend to run out of traditional, uh, sites.
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So, Alan did a brilliant job of recreating the whole event, and uh, including
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your, uh, your organization, and then of course, inviting ourselves into many
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very elegant and beautiful horse farms.
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That's the kind of extra that, uh, Doesn't occur on every tour.
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Speaking of that, we did a lot of restoration shops, which I'm a big fan of.
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I, it's kind of funny.
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I attribute my new found interest in what I call restoration shows because
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of the tour I went on with you guys, because we went to white post because we
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went to some of the other ones and saw these cars in various different stages of
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their progression and their restoration.
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And for me, for whatever reason ignited a new found passion.
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And so I've been really diving into a lot of those and actually have a better
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eye of critiquing them now, having talked to some of those professionals.
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So was that always something that was part of the tour or was
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that something that Alan brought?
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No, actually a restoration shop.
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is frequently a component, not always, because sometimes
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they're just not available.
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But when, when we are in an area as rich in restoration activity as northern
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horse country, we take advantage of it.
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And each visit is an eye opener.
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Okay, hit that right on the head.
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The BMW, okay, the 327, a fabulous car that we saw at White Post.
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White Post specialized in the Chrysler, big Imperial Chrysler limousines.
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That's something special.
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They specialize in the beautiful Lincolns of the 55 56 period.
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It broadens our horizons, uh, because it's not necessarily classic car restoration,
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but four wheel automotive restoration.
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And to see a 327 BMW with that incredible story of the American officer bringing
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it back home, why, that's, that's a new dimension, and it's a wonderful dimension.
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So let's take a moment to define what is a classic car.
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So by by the official definition of your group, I know there's very specific
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rules on what is and what isn't.
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And I know you and I debated.
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We played the whole does this count?
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Does this not for a while there?
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So for our audience, what what does constitute a classic car?
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The Classic Car Club, when it was founded, attempted to define it as a
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coach built car, that is a car with a wooden frame and metal over the wood,
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which is the traditional coach built concept of manufacturing fine, fine cars.
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Until 1939, this was by and large the, the, the way a fine
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senior Packard was manufactured.
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But at this point, Cadillac had already moved to all steel
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construction for his famous 60 special, which is considered a classic.
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What I'm trying to say is that we've been nibbling at the edges of the
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definition for many, many years now.
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And today, the, the town and country from the post war period, the Chrysler
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has also been Officially permitted to be called a classic by the classic
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car club, and we have ventured pre 1924 into some of the older almost
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brass era cars also, but we're still trying to maintain 1924 1939 1940 as
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the traditional perimeters, with a few additions on the outriders on the outside.
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I can.
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Tell you one thing, that the Town and Country decision came with
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a great deal of pain and anger.
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Those who were happy made just as many people very, very unhappy.
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People have strong opinions in this club.
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I would say the safest definition is the wood framed.
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body that is called a coach built car.
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And I've, I've gone back and I'm sure many other people will too.
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If you visit the classic car club of America's website, there's actually
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a whole listing of cars that qualify for entry into the organization.
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And it's, and you and I had talked about this where you can petition for
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vehicles to be added to the registry.
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So long as they meet certain criteria of specialty or limited
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quantity low production runs, etc But they do have to be of the utmost
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as you like to phrase it luxury.
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They can't just be a sports car You couldn't that's right You couldn't
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say I want to put a vw beetle in there or or a lotus seven or something like
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that It has to be a very particular and special car to be added to that
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registry Well, i'll give you i'll give you an example, especially in europe.
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There's a a bit more activity In recreating very famous cars that were
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destroyed in the war or were lost.
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Uh, Horch comes, comes to mind as a brand that had a few models that were
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just bombed to smithereens in the war.
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And for those that don't know, Augustus Horch was the founder of Audi.
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There's a whole, there's a whole backstory on that in an article I
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wrote called what's, what's in a name.
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So you can search the website for that.
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That's right.
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So for example, these, the, there were a couple of models that were built.
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From a historically correct chassis and then built with wood and metal
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and historically as accurate as possible, but there are 100 percent
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recreations, but those kinds of cars, we obviously would consider classics.
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People do this with Bugatti every now and then, certainly in the Duesenberg
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world and in the Rolls Royce world, many, many times have the bodies been
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changed over the period of a long history.
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1928 Duesenberg limousine is suddenly a Murphy Roadster.
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This happens.
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Let me ask you this, because I ask people a lot of times the
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question, you know, why that car?
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Why this car?
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And the answer oftentimes is summarized best by, it's the
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cars that you grew up with.
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That are the ones that you gravitate towards and I know I've heard that
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from several people in the classic car club that that's why they have their
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passions and Packards and Cadillacs, etc.
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So it makes me wonder, is that why you're invested in the Packards?
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And also, what would be the appeal for someone in today's generation
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to latch on to these vehicles as you as you see things moving forward?
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Yeah.
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Well, I would say the generation one back that was motoring and active, even as
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young children, pre World War II, they could legitimately say, Oh, I grew up with
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a Packer 12, or I saw a Super 8, or I saw a Duesenberg, or, or they participated in
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the real world and, and would then Have these cars after World War Two, and that's
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how the classic car club was founded.
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Okay, but the car club was founded in the very early 50s, and those
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people were children or very young men in the 30s and early 40s.
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So they remember these cars and then we're able to buy them and get
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them running again, in many cases.
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Our generation is one beyond that.
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So, we are going a little bit more by historic record or our
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father's love of these cars.
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In my case, my grandfather's had Packards.
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So, I grew up with the love of Packards.
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The, the lore of Packard and the stories of Packard and how good
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they were and how elegant they were and the family photographs and
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movies in some cases that exist.
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Uh, and I think that's true for many of the other members who are at least one
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generation removed from the actual driving experience of the car in its heyday.
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Today, there's That's a whole new issue.
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How do we excite a younger person, well a person like you, to hop into a
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Packard and take it around the track?
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And all I can say is, here's the car, here are the keys, go for it.
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And I think once you do that, you just fall in love.
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It's so simple.
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And I will say from driving your super eight and I appreciate you letting me
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behind the wheel of that last year, the mechanics of it, because they
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were standardized by Cadillac much, much earlier than yours is a 37.
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If I remember correctly, much earlier than that time period, it was simple.
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It was like driving a, Volkswagen from the two thousands.
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I just jump in and start driving.
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The only thing I found awkward was obviously this, uh, the suspension and
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the steering geometry itself with those long kind of forward trailing arms
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or tie rods to the front suspension.
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You know, how much it took to actually maneuver the vehicle was a little bit
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surprising and it took some time to get used to, but, but taking off from
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a stoplight when the manual manual is a manual at the end of the day.
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I will say I found some things really interesting and very ahead of their
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time riding with various owners where it was like, Oh, this has, you
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know, vacuum assisted semi automatic clutch and all these kinds of things
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and dials here on the steering wheel where I can adjust the timing and in
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advance and all these kind of things.
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And I didn't realize how complicated the older cars could be, but also
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the beauty and their simplicity.
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So there's like this double edged sword there where you can, as you
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mentioned earlier, really geek out on them, but on the same token, you.
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You don't want to shy away from them to go.
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Uh, well, it's like a hundred years old Why do I even want to bother there's
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there's a lot there to dig into and unpack Well, I mean I I grew up on bmw 2002s
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And I still love driving a 37 packer.
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I mean, i'm i'm pretty versatile when it comes to cars.
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I i've had five audi tt so it's it's not like I uh I stayed with 1937
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and i'm tied to it But the driving experience is very interesting because
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it's got a relatively long wheelbase In my case, 134 inches, and it, it,
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it, it, it floats through the curves.
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I mean, once it sets itself, it's pretty good.
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The line is, is good and it keeps the line.
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And the front suspension of a 37 Packard was pretty revolutionary.
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It's independent.
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And it was considered so powerful.
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premium that Rolls Royce patented it for the Phantom 3,
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which was its premium 812 car.
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This suspension is fundamentally in its various forms still around today.
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It hasn't changed that much, especially with a stabilizer bar.
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Those cars stayed pretty flat on the road up front.
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It's the rear where the car is quite basic with their rigid
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axles and, uh, and their springs.
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Some of the premium European cars actually did offer independent rear suspension.
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The premium Mercedes, the 500, 540ks did.
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A horse with its premium cars also did.
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But that was not necessarily the standard or the norm.
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Certainly not with Rolls Royce.
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But those were very limited edition cars, whereas Packard
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built 4, 000 Super 8s in 1937.
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Just a whole different dimension.
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So one of the things that comes to mind often when we talk about modern
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cars, because you have to, we come from a different discipline, right?
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Most of us on our side, though we branch out, a lot of us are
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grounded in circuit racing.
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And so we're running production cars or GT cars or, you know,
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like touring cars on, on circuits.
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And it gets to a point where spec series racing changes from year
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to year because they phase cars out and they become unpopular.
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And it all really revolves around parts scarcity.
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And we've seen that even in mass produced vehicles from let's say the
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seventies and eighties, not necessarily American cars where there's a huge
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backing for, you know, getting parts for your, your Mopar and your Chevy
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and whatnot, but a lot of the European cars, especially, you know, lower
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production, you know, sports cars, it's getting harder and harder to find parts.
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And so that, that.
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Question comes up a lot when we talk about, you know, what car should I buy?
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So i'm going to propose the question to you Because I think that would be at the
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front end of someone's thinking when they would be thinking about a classic car
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In the era that we've been talking about is how difficult is it to find parts?
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To maintain the vehicles service them and things of that nature.
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What's your your opinion on that?
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Well I'm glad you asked that question, because I can answer it very quickly,
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having had to do a lot of part sourcing, or even helping friends source parts.
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In the case of Packard, the sheer volume of luxury car
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production made it very helpful.
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I just posted a 1928 photograph this morning, and I was amazed that in 1928
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Packard built 40, 000 premium luxury cars.
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The cheapest car was 2, 200 in 1928, which was a huge amount of money, okay?
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A worker made 1, 000 in, in, in 1928.
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So, we have quite a few parts from, I would say, the late 20s
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and certainly from much of the 30s.
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For our cars, quite a few of the parts were made by independent
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manufacturers, whether it's AC or, or Delco, Ramey, Autolite, a lot of
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names that are still around today.
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And those, those parts, especially for carburetors and for Stromberg, for
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example, or, or for, for distributors, plugs, all those things are.
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quite readily available.
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And then in the case of Packard, we have two really superb parts
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suppliers, Cantor Brothers in New Jersey and Max Merritt in Indiana.
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And Fred Bruner is the genius that has literally, you know, A mind like
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a catalog, and you could call him up and say, Fred, here's what I need,
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and he will say, if it's not readily available in his database, he'll say,
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give me 24 hours, and 24 hours later you get photographs of what he has.
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gas pumps, for example, which are A.
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C.
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vacuum pumps, why you send in your old unit and he sends you a rebuilt unit.
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So much of this is send in the core and get it rebuilt.
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And that's a dying art form there because I think a lot of us probably
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have this mental image that, you know, you're calling up this, this
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gentleman in Illinois and it's, like an episode of American Pickers.
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He's going through 16 barns that are dilapidated trying to find
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parts, original parts for a packer.
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But it's pretty organized.
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Yeah, well that's computerized.
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So is Cantor Brothers.
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And I've done, I've done a lot of business with both and
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they're they're just excellent.
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And then for the really hard to get stuff, why you will have to turn to
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somebody who has to hunt up an old part.
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And then you have to get it refurbished.
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Sure.
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There are certain years where it's very hard to get a carburetor.
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Okay.
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Detroit lubricators are not as readily available.
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And when they are available, they will cost a serious amount of money.
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So a good, Platinum credit card doesn't hurt . It's not, it's not
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much different in the racing world.
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I mean No, it's not.
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Of course not.
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And if you own a Mercedes or A BMW, your dealer's always grinning at you with three
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gold teeth hundred and you paid for them.
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And in the modern cars we call that, you know, with the BMWs, we call
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it the M tax for like the M three and we had the portion exactly,
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of course the MT tax, I'm sure.
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So it's a, I'm sorry.
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So it's a, it's a, it's a supply chain that's really pretty good for Packard.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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It's, it's, it's really very good on top of that.
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Most good restoration shops that specialize in Packard, they'll have parts.
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So there, there's a great deal of trading going on.
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And if, if, uh, Fred doesn't have it, maybe Cantor Brothers
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does, or someone else who specializes in restoring Packards.
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Last not least, we can't forget Hershey, which covers the entire car world.
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And Hershey is the place of last resort, where you go with a picture of what
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you've got, or what you need, or you take your old part and you hunt for it.
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And frequently you'll find it.
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If you don't find it, uh, the first who's somebody says go see joe
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over and on chocolate field and off your troop and you find it so I've
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i've Basically been very lucky.
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I mean from the experiences that I had with you guys Especially
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going to the restoration shops and hearing all the stories.
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I found it To be very much more positive than what I'm used to where
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it seems like everyone in the classic car world seems to collaborate.
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They want to work together.
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They are very much more altruistic in the sense that they want to
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keep these cars on the road.
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They want to keep them preserved.
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They're willing to help each other out in the racing world.
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It's a little bit more me first in the gimme gimme.
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Where it's like, well, I got this special part that makes me faster than you.
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And I don't want to tell you where I got it from, you know, that kind of thing.
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So it's, it's, it's very converse, uh, with respect to, to sharing of, of
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information now, granted, one of the, our premises is that specific cars that
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we cater to, we try to put out, build information where to source the parts.
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You know, there's really no recipe.
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I want to help you go faster.
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That's part of my guarantee.
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So I, I aligned myself more with.
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With your guys mentality in that sense, but it was very much a breath
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of fresh air to, to see that firsthand when we went to all those different
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shops where they're very much more.
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What you just told me is a revelation to me because we're just the opposite.
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Everybody tries to help everyone else truly.
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And folks are always, oh, let me check in the back.
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I might actually have something.
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Sure, they'll say, look, you owe me a thousand bucks.
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Fine.
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Usually you'll pay that if it's near and dear to you.
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But my last experience, not to belabor a point, but sometimes a story like that
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is a good way to illustrate the point.
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Our cars have shutters that open automatically with a thermostat.
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And mine.
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My thermostat wasn't working, so I called Fred.
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He said, look, Hunter, we, we've reproduced these, so there's no core.
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You know, give me 450 bucks, and I'll send you a new one.
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That happens too.
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There you go.
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Certain high use parts are made new.
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So that, And so that brings me to two more questions.
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The first one being, we'll talk specifically about the Packard
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because you're a resident expert.
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And I mean, I follow you on Instagram and if anybody wants to learn more about
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Packard's follow at Gunther Hoyt on Instagram, he's put, he posts every day.
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I don't even know where you get all the material from and
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it's all very informative, but.
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I guess the question is, what are, what would you say are the top three or four
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things that fail in a classic car that you do have to keep after season after season?
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Well, I think the distributor cap is pretty critical just to
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keep the car properly running.
24:07
Fuel pump, distributor cap.
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I would say the rotors, I could get, I can get rotors for my car.
24:15
and advanced auto.
24:16
Oh, wow.
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I get the plugs that advance auto.
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They're 10 millimeter, basically lawnmower plugs.
24:23
Not that difficult.
24:24
The rotor, the caps are always trickier.
24:27
Okay.
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So you should always have a good cap and have one in, In reserve
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just in case without a cap.
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You can't drive the car You should you should have the parts with you
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that you need to drive the car.
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That's really important That is very similar to us I mean when we travel long
24:47
distances to a track you bring half a car with you because you're never sure
24:51
Well, we don't have to go that far, but we do have to have The distributor
24:55
has to be functioning frankly speaking.
24:57
I think the most important thing Otherwise is to is to keep your carburetor Don't
25:03
wait until it, it craps out on you.
25:05
I mean, do replace it fairly routinely so that it doesn't start
25:10
leaking suddenly on a critical tour.
25:12
Number one, it's a fire hazard.
25:13
Number two, you will not drive your car.
25:16
So, I would say some of these basic things you ought to change out every five years.
25:21
Just do it.
25:22
That's a longer schedule than I thought.
25:23
So every five years is not bad.
25:25
Yeah.
25:25
So that led me to my, the second part of my question, which was, and it sounds
25:30
to me like in your case specifically, that you're not a purist when it
25:34
comes to, it needs to be a genuine Packard part or whatever it might be.
25:38
And I think that's another fear in people's minds is it has to be OE to
25:42
be considered, you know, the pure, you know, the purest of the pure.
25:45
And I'm sure there are purists out there, but.
25:48
Is that really a concern or are there mods as what we would call in
25:51
our world mods that are worth it?
25:53
Things that you've seen that hey, they've redeveloped this part.
25:56
It's really worth doing that upgrade as an example Alan richards with
26:00
the lebaron where he added the overdrive Because it was not a really
26:05
great car to drive on a long tour.
26:07
He needed the extra gear What do you think about modding these cars?
26:11
Well, my car has literally two modifications And I firstly, most
26:19
of those I think are perfectly okay.
26:21
One is, I run it on radial tires.
26:24
To me, that's just common sense.
26:25
The car handles better, it rides better, and it certainly stops better.
26:30
So that's just number one.
26:32
Number two, my car has a distributor cap that is not the original Delco Raimi cap.
26:40
Okay.
26:41
And I, what I'm trying to say is the, the, the, the, the wire configuration
26:45
is different, but it's a cap that's new and it's off the shelf.
26:49
I have the original Delco Raimi with pins to, to lock the wires in, but
26:56
I don't use that when I'm driving, this is a traditional suction cup.
27:01
So those are the two things on my car where I would say,
27:05
if you're a judge, you might.
27:08
Take offense, but if you're judging the car today in the Classic Car Club,
27:13
radial tires are now no longer penalized.
27:17
And that's for, that's judging for a Concours d'Elegance, basically.
27:21
If you give your cap, they would probably say, hmm, it's a gray area.
27:27
So that's I won't get stuck on the road.
27:29
Right.
27:29
And then, and so there's a, there's a discussion there about reliability.
27:32
So in this case, you, you've got two, I don't want to call them disciplines,
27:36
but you've got two things going on here.
27:38
You've got the touring and you've got the concourse.
27:40
And obviously if you're trying to win in concourse, you want to keep the car
27:44
as period appropriate as possible, as original as possible, but let's just talk
27:47
about getting people back into this, into this genre of cars, into this discipline,
27:52
and, If I wanted to buy a Packard for the street, are there certain things
27:56
that you would just say, you know what?
27:57
I don't care about concourse.
27:58
These are the things I would do if I had my dream Packard.
28:00
I wanted to drive it every day What what would some be some tasteful things or some
28:04
modifications that you could see doing?
28:06
For a car that didn't need to be in a concord.
28:09
Well Number one there are two ways to go about making the car run At
28:13
more modern speeds one is to use an overdrive or in my case and that was
28:17
another Modification I use A 345 to one instead of the traditional 445 or
28:28
404s or 409s were offered back then.
28:32
They were much higher revving rear ends.
28:36
So my cars has a rear end that makes it much more leisurely to
28:41
drive at 60, 65 miles an hour.
28:43
And I bought it, by the way, from a master restorer named Phil Hill.
28:48
Okay.
28:49
Everyone knows Phil Hill because he really lived in both worlds, your world as a
28:54
modern racer at a very, one of the best.
28:57
And he lived in the world of Packards and p and, and Pierce Arrows, both of
29:02
which he drove, uh, a lot and, and, uh, the Pierce one at Pebble Beach.
29:08
Phil Hill had a foot in both camps and he definitely modified.
29:14
His classics, and they did win first at Pebble with rear ends.
29:19
No judge will ever know that anyway.
29:21
Yeah, they're not taking it apart to figure out the dimensions and whatnot.
29:24
Let me ask you this.
29:26
I know you have a heavy bias towards Packards, and there's the whole
29:29
Packard No, go ahead, I No, no, no.
29:31
There's the whole Packard Cadillac discussion, which I do want to get into.
29:34
Sure.
29:35
But let me ask this question.
29:37
And I think I asked you this.
29:38
I think I asked every owner on the tour.
29:40
There's some cars that people gravitate towards.
29:43
There's some they gravitate away from.
29:46
So it's another double edged question.
29:48
A, if I was starting out in the classic car world, what is a good entry vehicle?
29:52
that would give me the all around experience, and let's, let's put
29:55
Packard's to the side, something else, uh, good entry vehicle, and then, in
29:59
your opinion, vehicles to stay away from.
30:03
Well, I would jump on a, on a good Buick.
30:07
They're beautiful.
30:08
They're just beautifully styled.
30:11
I, I, I think they're much more affordable entries.
30:14
No, the, the Buick would be a terrific place to start.
30:18
I know that our friend, uh, Al Becker is a big Buick.
30:22
Pro.
30:23
He could probably tell you much more expertly, but I think the
30:26
part supply is very, very good.
30:28
And General Motors made so many parts in their own subsidiaries, supply of
30:36
critical ignition parts and Carburation.
30:39
I'm sure that's just as good as Packard.
30:41
Cars to stay away from.
30:43
Well, I'll tell you what to stay away from, as beautiful as it may be, is
30:47
anything that was made in very, very low.
30:50
I would definitely, I'm sorry, I'm going to say something terrible.
30:54
Stay away from Kords and Auburn's.
30:56
Unless you've got limitless funds, because the part supply is, is not that strong.
31:02
Everything would have to be made custom, or you'd have to find it
31:07
with a long, long, hard search.
31:10
They're difficult.
31:12
The chords, especially the later ones, the Gordon Burek ones, they were
31:18
not made in very large quantities.
31:19
Volume and they were never refined to be truly reliable.
31:24
So those kinds of cars, they're beautiful, but they're hard to maintain.
31:31
And if you're going to get into the hobby, get something that won't kill you.
31:36
Don't kill your pocketbook.
31:38
And the fun to me is driving.
31:40
So if you buy a car that always breaks down or always has an issue or can't be
31:45
driven because you can't find the part that could kill the hobby in a hurry.
31:49
Yeah.
31:50
To your point, I mean, having driven your 37 Super 8 and having been in
31:54
Alan's 37 Cadillac Coupe, which Matthew, one of our members, wrote about, and
31:59
you've met Matthew as well, both cars were surprisingly modern in terms of
32:03
their driving style, their capabilities, their amenities, and Once I got used
32:09
to being around them, it made, it made all the sense in the world.
32:12
Now, obviously like the later Fleetwoods and things that were
32:15
on tour with us, those were great.
32:17
Riding with Bob and his 32 sport, I think it was or 35.
32:21
I can't remember off the top of my head now.
32:23
That was an interesting, that was more of a sports car in comparison
32:26
to what you and Al Becker had and what Richard has, et cetera.
32:30
I think one of the other warnings was don't go near anything with a weird
32:34
engine, like, and I'm not trying to call anybody out, but something as
32:37
an example, like the night engine and people that don't know what
32:40
that is, go look it up online.
32:42
There was a lot of experimenting back then.
32:44
And to your point, you want to, you want to stay closer to something common
32:48
with a larger part supply behind it.
32:51
The, the, the night is a, is is a very good case in point.
32:54
It's, that's sort of a little bit of a cult car and yeah, it, it, it's, it's,
32:59
it may be charming, but it's really not that good for a tour car, uh, where
33:05
you and I like to drive to my tours.
33:08
So I, I, I have 300 miles behind me before I get there, . And,
33:14
uh, so the car has to be good.
33:17
It's got to take me and get me back home.
33:20
And it's got to do that in a fairly good rapid clip.
33:22
Otherwise I'll be three days getting up to Middleburg, which
33:25
I certainly didn't do that day.
33:27
I came up in four hours, so I'm driving at a good, healthy clip.
33:32
I would say you want a car that was made in some volume and had
33:36
all the bugs ironed out in its day.
33:39
Because if it didn't, those bugs are going to get twice as Bad in the modern
33:44
era where the part supply is zero and you can't get good mechanics to work on them.
33:49
I mean It's it's hard to get a guy to work on a night engine at this point.
33:55
Oh, absolutely So let's let's step back a minute.
33:58
Let's talk about cadillac versus packard Those are the two mainstays
34:03
in the classic car world both produce some very high level very
34:07
luxurious prestige Tegis vehicles.
34:09
Give me pros and cons of each.
34:11
And I know you're, I know what you're, you're going to lean towards the Packard,
34:14
but still let's pros and cons of each.
34:15
No, no, I mean, I, I think Cadillac, once it made its mind up
34:20
that it was going to be a serious contender for the top luxury car.
34:25
did it in a, in a brilliant way with its, uh, V, V 12 primarily and its
34:31
V 16, and those cars were gorgeous.
34:34
I mean, there's no denying that they were stunning, stunning cars.
34:38
What is interesting is that Packard remained so dominant, especially once it
34:43
also brought out the big V 12, until 1940.
34:48
And after that, Cadillac put its foot down and roared away.
34:53
I, I think.
34:54
The sheer clout of General Motors back in Cadillac eventually made itself felt.
35:01
How are the cars in terms of driving?
35:03
Well, gee, I've driven a 60 Special, a Fleetwood 60 Special, that was
35:07
just fun to drive and very modern, beautifully restored, and it was just
35:13
a real good, solid, fun car to drive.
35:15
I have a friend here in Salem, Virginia, right down here
35:20
where I live, he has a V16.
35:22
Well, that car almost never gets out because it's,
35:25
number one, it's way too big.
35:26
It's a 34 and it's got a 154 inch wheelbase.
35:32
So that's just beyond big.
35:36
I think that's longer than one of Hitler's big 770ks to give
35:40
you some sense of comparison.
35:42
And the engine is, that's a pretty complex vehicle.
35:47
Engine the v16.
35:48
We had one on the tour last spring Uh keeping that on
35:52
the road keeping it firing.
35:53
Just right.
35:55
That's a handful.
35:56
Is it gorgeous?
35:57
Oh, yeah tremendous That's a little too much.
36:00
I think a v12 cadillac is pretty good If you have a good healthy budget a v12
36:05
cadillac is beautiful and it's a lovely car to drive That would be my take on
36:12
what I would buy if I was in the market not such a big styling fan after 36.
36:19
Then they started to look a little too modern for me, but
36:22
the early ones around 31, 32, 33.
36:25
God, they're beautiful.
36:27
I'm not at all 200 percent Packard.
36:29
I got an eye out for a good looking Cadillac.
36:32
Earlier episode of the show, which hopefully you'll listen to when
36:35
it, when it actually airs, we talked about, uh, V8 convertibles.
36:38
And at one point we were suggesting, you know, starter V8 convertibles.
36:41
We were looking at cars actually under 50, 000.
36:45
And on that list, surprisingly enough, you have drop top V8.
36:49
With or without a manual didn't matter.
36:51
You have vehicles like 55 Ford Thunderbird showing up Pontiac
36:55
Catalina, stuff like that.
36:56
And one of the people that was on the discussion actually mentioned, well, yeah,
37:00
you could do a Packard Caribbean as well.
37:02
And so there's a disconnect there.
37:04
I think historically where people think of, you know, The Packard
37:08
it's, you know, the luxurious kind of gangster car, if you're going to draw
37:12
a parallel and then these, you know, early kind of malt shop bebop, you
37:18
know, early rock and roll convertibles.
37:21
So kind of summarize for us, like the history of Packard and how
37:25
it got there and what inevitably happened, if you don't mind.
37:29
Sure.
37:30
Packard was the coach built car of choice in the in the U.
37:34
S.
37:35
And then it became, and this decision was made pretty early on, it was one of
37:40
the export leaders for the premium cars.
37:42
Unlike, say, Pierce Arrow or Cadillac, the export division at Packard made
37:48
damn sure that this car got exported in larger numbers than any other luxury
37:54
car to all corners of the globe, whether it was China or Japan or Australia,
37:59
New Zealand, Europe, very strong exporter early on and stayed that way.
38:05
It's interesting that Joseph Stalin drove a 12.
38:09
Okay, as one example, the King of Jordan drove a 12, the King of Egypt drove
38:14
a 12, the Field Marshal Mannerheim in Finland drove a 12 cylinder Packard.
38:21
Oh, the King of the Belgians drove a Super 8.
38:23
Okay, so, point being, there were an awful lot of Packards being driven.
38:28
The Emperor of Japan drove a V12.
38:31
Packard convertible sedan and a Packard limousine.
38:35
V12, 1937.
38:38
We've got to find those two cars because I think they're in the Imperial Garage.
38:41
But the point being, Packard was the premium car of choice.
38:46
I'm amazed they didn't sell one to Mussolini, but He drove a Fiat.
38:51
They certainly got around, okay?
38:53
And Tchaikovsky had Packard.
38:55
It was a strong leader of the world.
38:59
After the war, I think Packard got off to a slow start.
39:04
Clipper ran for two years and it was a great car, but then Packard somehow
39:09
hopped the tracks and tried to be a mass produced car without the money.
39:15
You can say what you want.
39:17
I always say what killed Packard was they lost the prestige market.
39:23
Once Hollywood switched to a 300 SL, for example, you know, there was a
39:27
photo of Clark Gable and Gary Cooper and Sophia Loren and, uh, Yul Brenner
39:32
and everybody driving around the 300 SL.
39:34
Packard had lost the position that it had in the 30s.
39:39
Once it lost that, even the Caribbean, which was pretty neat car, and it
39:43
could have been modified to make it better and better, who was driving it?
39:47
Doctors and lawyers and businessmen, but not Ewell Brenner, not Clark
39:52
Gable, not the trendsetters.
39:54
Once that happened, Packard didn't have the money to be a competitor to
39:59
Cadillac in the mass produced luxury car.
40:02
Mercedes Benz took over Hollywood, and that was a slot Packard had.
40:07
And Cadillac had, and that's the same thing that killed Cadillac
40:10
in the end, was they gave up the premium, the trendsetter market.
40:14
P8, straight A, and all that silly stuff.
40:17
If you, if you lose the trendsetter market, you lose
40:20
your premium pole position.
40:21
So who would you say is the premium pole sitter today?
40:25
Oh, good Lord.
40:26
I would say, uh, Ferrari, Bugatti, Lamborghini certainly have that
40:32
slot in the, in the super exotics.
40:35
That means that.
40:36
Mercedes, I didn't mention them.
40:39
They really don't have a car, uh, that competes at that level.
40:47
Then, of course, you've got some pretty nice Bentley Jag offerings,
40:52
but I would say Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti are the Oh, you wouldn't
40:57
offer the crown to Rolls Royce?
40:59
It's still standing after all these years?
41:01
No.
41:03
That's okay.
41:04
It doesn't have to be a yes.
41:06
But I was just throwing it out there.
41:07
It's I think the demographics are not in their favorite center has
41:12
to be A sex symbol of some kind.
41:15
Okay, a 70 year old driving a rolls royce is not a sex symbol Okay, I
41:21
don't give a damn what anybody says.
41:23
Yeah, I got you.
41:24
I got you.
41:24
I agree A lovely bentley lovely car.
41:27
It's perfect.
41:28
But it's it's not the trendsetter Jumping back to part of something
41:33
you said before, during the war, a lot of auto manufacturers
41:37
turned towards supporting the war.
41:38
You know, Ford was making all sorts of armaments and tools and
41:42
things and sending supplies over.
41:43
So, what did Packard contribute to the war effort?
41:46
Well, Packard had, uh, actually, probably the most important contribution.
41:53
They took the, uh, the Rolls Royce.
41:56
engine, the Merlin, and made it a high produced engine.
42:00
Thousands of engineering changes to make that happen.
42:05
But then the Merlin engine and the Mustang fighter won the war.
42:09
I mean, it, it was the mass produced high speed fighter that
42:12
could finally knock them out.
42:14
Uh, out of the sky and then on the ocean, the PT boats were powered by
42:20
Packard's, big v twelves, marine engines.
42:23
So Packard was a, I would say the engine producer of choice for the highest
42:31
speed machines in the war machine.
42:33
And were those still in lines or were they vs.
42:36
When was the switch?
42:36
Oh, there were vs vs.
42:37
When was the switchover for Packard officially.
42:40
Well, the V 12, Packard invented the V 12 in the 1916 model year,
42:47
and that was called the Twin 6.
42:49
And that Twin 6 is what a man named Enzo Ferrari looked at, and a man
42:54
named Ito Bugatti looked at, although Bugatti switched to the straight engine,
42:59
and Ferrari went to the V engine.
43:02
Point is, Both are today considered the, the geniuses of exotic out there
43:09
design, but Packard actually was the, uh, their, their, their touchstone.
43:14
If you could have any three cars from the classic era outside of your Super 8,
43:19
no money, no object, what would they be?
43:23
A classic era?
43:24
Oh, I, I, I would, uh, I definitely want to have an open Pierce Arrow.
43:29
I might actually have one of the big V12 Lincolns.
43:33
So it sounds like you're a convertible fan, and yet you drive a coupe.
43:37
How does that work?
43:37
Well, because I drive a lot.
43:40
I would love to have a convertible, but I'm at this point, budget and
43:44
everything else, uh, lifestyle, one car, person, and I've got it just right.
43:49
But it would be fun to have a convertible or even share it with someone.
43:54
A convertible is kind of a fun thing to have.
43:56
However, they have their issues and probably just a lot easier to hitch a
44:01
ride with somebody in a convertible.
44:03
There you go.
44:03
So let's flip the coin three cars from the modern era if that you would want to have
44:09
well What's your definition of modern?
44:11
I'm gonna start with 1980 forward where we have fuel injection proper electronic
44:16
fuel injection forward We'll go with that.
44:17
Okay.
44:18
Well, I was a real big Audi TT fan, so I probably flopped back into one
44:24
of those and Yeah, there's fun car.
44:28
Now.
44:28
Yeah, you've challenged me Um, I, I drive an Audi in my modern car, probably
44:36
a, uh, maybe a Mercedes Coupe, you know, just to shake it up a little bit.
44:39
Very nice.
44:40
Of all the Packards, and there's a lot of them, a lot of different variants,
44:44
the Super, the Speed, this, that, the Convertible, the Phaeton, etc.
44:48
Which one's the best?
44:49
Of the Packards?
44:50
Of all of them, from the beginning to the end, which one's the best?
44:53
Yeah, well, the most reliable and, and, and, and elegant and,
44:56
and, uh, mechanically interesting.
44:59
Oh, I would say 37 was kind of a nice year because the styling on the
45:04
seniors was particularly beautiful.
45:06
I mean, I picked it for a reason.
45:07
I picked it because it had hydraulic brakes and it had
45:09
independent front suspension.
45:11
It was a little less, um, humongous.
45:14
134 wheelbases is to say 139 or 143.
45:21
I mean, that's a lot of wheelbase to, to try to park in a modern setting.
45:24
So you, I would say a 37 coupe roadster, whether it's a 12 or a super eight.
45:30
You know, when we go backwards from 1980, color was a big influencer in
45:36
terms of style, look, sex appeal, as you, as you put it out there.
45:39
So what would you say are, you know, really strong go to colors
45:44
for a classic car and what are colors to avoid altogether?
45:48
Well, um, I happen to have a 37 brochure and, and, and if you look at the
45:56
very, very lively color schemes of the twenties, And they ran up into 31, 32.
46:03
There was a dramatic shift in, in going from multicolor schemes
46:08
in the twenties to solo colors.
46:10
In the thirties, in 37, for example, there was a metallic gold that was offered
46:15
and there was a very beautiful dark.
46:18
silver gray that was offered and straight silver.
46:22
So metallics were offered all through the 30s.
46:25
And then of course, Packard Blue being Midnight Blue, very dark,
46:29
black, ivory beige, Chinatown, the movie, that was an ivory blue.
46:35
Packard with red leather interior.
46:37
Come on.
46:38
I mean, that's Hollywood.
46:39
That's glamour.
46:40
So those, that was certainly a very popular color combination.
46:45
And there was one on our tour.
46:46
The Dukes had an ivory Packard.
46:49
The colors to avoid, well, dark colors need a lot of cleaning
46:55
and shining and polishing.
46:56
And everything shows, and birds love it.
46:59
So I happen to have a Packard blue because I like it, but it does.
47:03
Take a lot of cleaning and fussing.
47:06
The metallic colors are beautiful.
47:07
Can't duck that.
47:08
They're pretty.
47:09
Looking into, let's say, the cars from the 60s and 70s, I am not a big
47:12
fan of those, what I call Bianchi greens, or what people would call like
47:16
a seafoam green, all those pastels.
47:18
Those just don't do it for me.
47:19
I mean, I'm, I'm a very, You know, the GTI came in four colors,
47:23
silver, black, red, and white.
47:25
That those are my go to, I've just heard from certain people that certain
47:29
colors are to be avoided, some yellows and some oranges, and even the Packards
47:34
I've seen in the classic cars I've seen you post on Instagram, I, there's
47:38
just been some that I've, I've showed them to my wife and she's like, Oh my
47:40
God, that car is absolutely gorgeous.
47:42
And they're usually the darker metallic color.
47:44
So I will definitely be there.
47:47
Packard had some, some colors that I, I would, would not, uh, I posted
47:52
a car on Sunday, Fernandez and Darin, uh, Darin, uh, big convertible
47:57
sedan with, with a light brown, tan brown and, and darker brown fenders.
48:03
I'm not a big fan of brown.
48:05
That's the downside.
48:06
I hate to say if Alan Richards is listening, that's the
48:08
downside to his LeBaron.
48:10
I'm not a fan of that color.
48:11
Of that a color.
48:12
Hi Allen.
48:13
Yeah, that, that, well, that's exactly his color and no, that, that LeBaron
48:17
has colors that I'm not that fond of.
48:21
I like his yellow.
48:22
That's kind of a peppy car.
48:24
Mm-Hmm.
48:24
. That, that.
48:24
I like that.
48:25
That's, that's fine.
48:26
I mean, the LeBaron is a totally real color, don't get me wrong, but it's
48:32
not the one I would have on a car.
48:33
Alright.
48:34
With that, I think my wrap up question for you is, is there anything, motor
48:39
sports, cars, Packard, whatever.
48:41
That you just want to share an antidote one of your best stories that
48:44
you'd like to share with everybody.
48:45
I think the The most fun i've ever had truly is is that lime rock?
48:51
Run where we were on the track and I was in this 20 29 coupe roadster black
48:57
i'll send you a picture of it and it was just a ball I mean, we took it around
49:01
at a pretty good clip and it gives you the feeling of 1929 at speed That was
49:08
pretty damn good That's pretty cool.
49:09
Um, I would say that that was pretty special.
49:12
I've been in some fun cars on some fun terrain, but that that
49:16
was definitely one of them.
49:19
And that car was in good shape, so nothing was going to fall off.
49:23
It's always a plus.
49:25
I was just about to say.
49:28
All right.
49:29
And on that note, like we said before, you can find Find Gunther on Instagram.
49:33
He posts daily, if not more constant, you know, stream of information, especially
49:38
with Packard's he's at Gunther Hoyt.
49:40
Is there anywhere else people can find you or find out more information
49:43
about classic cars, et cetera?
49:45
Oh, that's it.
49:45
That's where I keep it simple.
49:48
And it's the classic car club of america dot com website.
49:52
That's correct.
49:53
That's correct.
49:54
Well, Gunther, I can't thank you enough for sharing your story, taking an
49:57
hour out of your day to talk with us.
49:58
I'm sure the listeners will have tons of questions.
50:00
We're going to post a picture of that 29 Packard when you get it to us.
50:04
It'll be along with the show notes, etc.
50:07
And if you have more questions for Gunther, we'll definitely get
50:09
them to you and see what he says.
50:11
But thank you so much for coming on.
50:13
Thank you.
50:13
This was a lot of fun.
50:14
Take care.
50:15
Bye now.
50:16
Bye bye.
50:21
If you like what you've heard and want to learn more about GTM,
50:24
be sure to check us out on www.
50:28
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50:28
org.
50:28
You can also find us on Instagram Also, if you want to get involved or have
50:34
suggestions for future shows, you can call or text us at 202 630 1770, or send us
50:41
an email at crewchief at gtmotorsports.
50:43
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50:44
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50:45
Hey listeners, Crew Chief Eric here.
50:47
Do you like what you've seen, heard, and read?
50:51
Great, so do we, and we have a lot of fun doing it, but please remember, we're
50:55
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