Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / From JP Morgan to £150M AUM: - Building a Referral-Only Financial Advice Practice | Karen Berisford

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From JP Morgan to £150M AUM: - Building a Referral-Only Financial Advice Practice | Karen Berisford · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I've got to ask you then, why why leave JB Morgan then if you're having such a fantastic time?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was a big scary risk, but I thought if I never do it, I'm never gonna know.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, did you then start to realise that actually I've got an insane network here?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: My whole business has been built on referrals.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's now 150 million.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all referral-based.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely really hard work.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's no you you there's no shortcuts to, you know, success.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: So even if you manage to get home, you're still getting emails and calls.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, in my experience, quite often the Americans forgot that there was a time zone.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just working hard, and then working hard brings you, I suppose, financial rewards that allow you to do nice things and have what you want in life, maybe.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Gives you more choices, I think.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: You could work really, really hard, and then the bank has a bad year and your bonus, the bonus pool's cut in half.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And whereas it's it's so nice now to be in control of your own destiny.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, Karen, thanks so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Live podcast.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: This is one of our special episodes here at St.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: James's Place.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: We're in the lovely studios, and uh today you're gonna tell us about your journey, what got you into financial planning, what you were doing before, the catalyst that um got you into the St.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: James's Place Academy as well, and going through the St.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: James's Place Academy.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: So, Karen, just first off, for obviously nobody probably knows you in great detail.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: I've had the luxury of actually having a conversation with you prior to this meeting, but what were you doing before you became a financial planner?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um my career's always been in finance.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I started off at JP Morgan on their graduate training program.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So left university, did the milk round.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thought finance would be interesting, um, which is a slight other story as to why, but we'll we'll pass, pause that.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, applied to JP Morgan, really liked it, got onto the graduate training program.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I was I worked for about 13 years at JP Morgan, first four years on the equity derivatives trading floor um in the late 90s, which was amazing.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then ended up at moving to JP Morgan Asset Management, uh, much more about funds-based investments, and finally the last four years was at JP Morgan Private Bank.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: Nice.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: So a decent career then.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's a JP Morgan.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I've got to ask you then, why why leave JP Morgan then if you're having such a fantastic time?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think, well, I guess the catalyst was I had my first daughter.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I had my first daughter, was working crazy, crazy long days for big American bank, you know, and anyone that works in the city for big banking knows that, you know, they take their pound of flesh.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're expected to be in, you know, work long hours.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it got to the point where I'd returned back to work and I was getting up before not really seeing my baby in the morning before work.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: That nanny would kind of walk in the door, I'd leave.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in the evening, we had a I sort of said to her, I want to give her her bottle before she went to bed.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd literally walk in the door, and Nanny would give me the baby bottle, and I'd lit that was all I'd really get to see her during the week.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I sort of was sat there thinking, okay, I can't really do this anymore.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't work-life balance in any shape or form.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that I suppose was the catalyst.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I had loved it.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'd really loved JP Morgan, and it was an amazing place to work.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it just got to that stage where I thought, just my priorities were changing, I suppose.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, how old were you then at the time?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, now you go, you're asking me the difficult questions.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: God, I think I must have been 30-ish, probably.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Was JP Morgan did they have high expectations of you to be in the office more than you could be as well, more than you wanted to be as a mother?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: Whether was there, was there a pull between career and.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: There wasn't even a question that you couldn't be there.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there was it was just a given.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone was super hard working, yeah, long hours.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: But even when you were at home, you know, I worked across three different time zones.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we had a lot of dealings with the US.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously that runs right into your evening.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So even if you manage to get home, you're still getting emails and calls.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in my experience, quite often the Americans forgot that there was a time zone.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And they just yeah, needed something and expected it to be done.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: So the two in throwing then between wanting to spend more time with your daughter, for example, and obviously your commitment to to work.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: How did you, you know, how long did that last and how did it then bring you to a point where you started looking at something else?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess I was a client of St.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: James's Place.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a partner that looked after me when I was at JP Morgan, and I started chatting to him a bit about this, um, and about and sort of said, okay, actually, tell me a bit more about what you do and how you got into it.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, that sounds really interesting because it's still finance, um, but it was the ability to work on your own terms and have that bit more work-life balance.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that, you know, again, that was another catalyst talking to him and thinking, yeah, I probably can do this.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: So you had a financial planner from St.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: James's place.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: I did, yeah.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: So it was quite interesting.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: Working for JP Morgan, did you have a deep understanding of what financial planners actually did?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: Or was it kind of was it that inquisitive and that interesting to you that you were kind of like, well, hang on, what is it you actually do?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me about your Yeah, no, it wasn't.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: You'd think it it would be knowledgeable, but it wasn't.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think even when people that work in finance, you work in your own segment, your own part.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very much more on the I was on the investment side.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't a client-facing banker at JP Morgan.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was on the funds, investments piece.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't really know what a financial planner did at all.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: So being on the fund side and not being on the client-facing side, was that not a bit of a fear for you when you started looking at the jobs outside?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: Completely.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was the biggest fear of mine was whether I would actually be able to get any clients, whether any clients would want to work with me.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, I mean, that is the hardest part, finding clients.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the most fearful thing.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's talk about that then.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: So you you you you left JP Morgan, you, you, you did that through getting to know and understand what a financial planner does at SJP because your advisor was at SJP.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: You took the leap, moved across to SJP.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just break that down first of all.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: So you've gone from probably, by the sounds of it, a really great high-paying employed role into St.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: James's place.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: Did you go in as a partner?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: Through the academy.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: So join the academy and you went through your business plan, you did all the checking and everything to see what the best route and the best path was for you, and you decided that partner practice was right for you.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk about that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Employee to self-employed.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a big old leap and it's a big old risk.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: How did you how did you deal with that at the time?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I just thought it, you know, it was a big scary risk, but I thought if I never do it, I'm never gonna know.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I did think, well, I could always, if it all goes pear-shaped and I don't get any clients and don't earn anything, then I could always go back to a big employed job, probably.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: I sort of back to myself that I probably could get another job at another big bank.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I thought, well, if I just don't try it, I'm never gonna know.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I had a very supportive husband, luckily, and friends who all said yes.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, interestingly, one of my ex-colleagues at JP Morgan, I was chatting to him and he said, Well, I'll be a client of yours.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be your first client.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Well, really?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, that was quite a pivotal moment because I then realized actually people would want to be clients of mine.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, again, that's a mindset shift.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: You start to think, actually, maybe I can do this.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I started just testing my network, speaking to more people about it, and thought, okay, yeah, maybe I can take this leap.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think as well, I think people people often undervalue the network they have in the world that they work in.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because your prime example, right?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: You didn't know what a financial planner really did.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: You had to ask the questions to find out.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: There is this assumption that people work within financial services understand the wider financial services.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: So you are essentially a client of SJP, but everybody around you, now you're an SJP advisor and in that in that space, you can pass on that knowledge of what financial planning is to those individuals who obviously didn't know either as much as you did.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: So did that, when did that penny defining moment drop?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: Did that come through a conversation with SJP to help you see that?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: Or did you, I know somebody you said said, I'll be your first client.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: Did that lead on to somebody else and lead on to somebody else?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, did you then start to realise that actually I've got an insane network here?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, and I just thought of myself, and I became a client.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And when you think about that wider financial planning role, it's so broad.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's I always think whenever I meet a client, there's so much we can talk about.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everything from, you know, pensions, investments, inheritance tax planning.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, if I think about my colleagues, you know, everyone knows their specific thing, but they, you know, I didn't had any idea about pensions or inheritance tax planning or, you know, I knew about investments.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so yeah, I think I realized that this was a great, you know, great network of people that I could talk to.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: So, how quickly did you then become confident from moving from JB Morgan into selfie?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: We did you go straight into self-employment as well?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, back then when I started, so I started at St.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: James Place in 2009.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Most people did come in as a self-employed advice uh partner.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: You there weren't that many the route wasn't so much there to go in as an advisor.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: So myself and it quite a lot of obviously other colleagues that I joined with did the same.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I guess, yeah, it just I just started going out and having coffees with with colleagues, ex-colleagues, my network, and just started talk talk to people excitedly about what I was now doing.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And lo and behold, found that they were interested in talking to me about financial planning.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: And did you sort of branch branch out into other areas of financial services?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: Did did you did you think, well, that's my target market?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: Did you there's a lot you hear a lot about niching down, right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: Knowing a market, understanding your audience and leaning into that audience.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: Mine, mine's financial planners, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: Did you did you feel like, well, I'm gonna start at JP Morgan, I'm gonna branch out to some of these other investment banks?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: How did that work?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I did focus in on my ex colleagues and network because I thought, well, I understand these people, I understand, you know, their workplace benefits, how they think, you know.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess I did target that, but not completely exclusively.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I even today, I don't actually go down a particular niche.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: I actually keep it fairly broad, and I've got clients from all sorts of professions, you know, so it's not yeah, I haven't really done that as much.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And even the male-female thing, I don't specifically specialise in female clients, I have lots of female clients, but I've also got lots of male clients, you know.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: So do you generate a lot of referrals?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: My whole business has been built on referrals, and it's now 150 million and it's all referral-based, and and that just felt like the easiest way of doing it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can do a good job and get them to and get people to just naturally refer you to other people, and it also means you end up with a really nice client base because if you like working with those people, and then they you know introduce you to other like-minded people, and yeah, it's just grown from there, which has been really nice.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: You mentioned 150 million.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's pretty impressive.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's um it's quite a big number.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it really is.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I do have to so I pinch myself and think, wow, yeah.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: Do you often think about that as being a big number, or do you feel like it's not enough?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: I try, I mean, I generally don't think about it very often.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think every time I'm meeting with a client, I'm looking at their individual, you know, plans and accounts, and I'm focused on that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think it did, we'll probably get onto this, but it did prompt me to bring two other advisors into the practice because it got to the stage where I was just worried slightly that it was just me.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and part of that catalyst was losing my parents, and I suddenly had to take some time out, and it makes you think, wow, if I can't be doing my job and it's just me advising, that's quite a business risk when you start getting bigger AUM.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and also just feeling that I wanted to give the high levels of service that I'd promised clients when I took them on, and that's really crucial for me.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't want that level of service to drop at all just because I was growing the business, and that's I suppose the reason why I hired advisors.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: Was that tricky though, hiring like yes, ridiculously tricky.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it would be really easy, and it took me about three years to find the first person because I was really picky about it because I I felt that I wanted to bring in people that were maybe similar to me, or that I thought, well, if I was gonna introduce my clients to them, it needed they needed to be of a similar, I don't know, yeah.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Similar similar delivery of, you know, yeah, financial planning.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: You feel like you had quite a high expectation.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it just it just took me ages to find find the right people.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: So when you found the right people, who who were they?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: So they are both both of them came actually through the Women Returners Network.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which I went and spoke at a few times.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And mainly it started because I actually really like the idea of supporting women returners.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's, you know, it comes from obviously I've got a network of friends and colleagues and people that have had kids and returned and have had different difficult times in, you know, big corporate worlds trying to go back to their job.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I kind of and also I just think there's some fabulous people there that maybe slightly have lost confidence or maybe have been out of work for a bit, but are just the most driven, brilliant people.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I I sort of thought, well, actually, I think that would be a good fit for what I'm looking for.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I started talking on the women returners and just connected and networked through there and and ended up finding the two people and both of them are women returners, and they so they um, you know, they've been one of them had a career at Coots Private Bank for a while, the other one was an ex-lawyer.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, they're really great advisors, yeah.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: So they've come on as advisors, have they?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Just talk to me a bit, talk to me a little bit more about this Women's Returners Network then.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: Is that something that you is external to St.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: James's Place?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: Is it part of St.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: James's Place?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: Can you give us a bit of an insight?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Because is it open to our listeners who are thinking about getting back into work and maybe looking at financial planning as a career?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: How yeah, definitely.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm probably not, you know, I'm not an expert in that.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's other people that that run it.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is external to SJP, but SJP are very heavily involved in it.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think sponsor some of it and and get involved.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think St.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: James's Place has realized that there's some high caliber people there that and it's a great career, you know, being a mum, because you can flex it.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, I always say I work just as hard, probably, as I worked at JP Morgan, but just the fact that you can flex it a bit, you can choose if you want to go into school for an afternoon and watch sports day.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to answer to anyone, you don't have to ask anyone, you can just do it, and then you know that that probably means you're going to work in your evening, but that's fine.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: You choose to do it.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so you just that flexibility is invaluable, I think, being a working mum.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: There's this idea that being a working mum, I hear it quite a lot.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: People think, um, well, I could work three days a week and have two days off.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Talk to us about the realities of actually running a business, this idea of flexible working, especially to the level that you are 150 million under management.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, a lot of clients probably to look after, a high level of service, you've now got employees.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what is the realities of running your own business?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and and and being a mother, is it, you know, weaving yogurt on a Wednesday and you know, taking kids to the ballet on a Friday and a bit of work in between?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, it's definitely really hard work.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's no you you there's no shortcuts to you know success um and having a you know built a business.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: It yeah, it's it's juggling.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's constant juggle between trying to obviously be a really good mum and be there for my kids, but also just you know, running this business.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I um interestingly, my husband recognised quite early on that I probably would want to go back to work.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think he, you know, we sort I think he said to me, I think you'll be a better mum having something else, having the work as well.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's absolutely true.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'd have probably gone a bit stir crazy just just being a mum.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I needed both.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: I need both things.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, you definitely have to do a lot of multitasking, juggling, working really hard.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I probably work too hard.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I still I probably do work too hard.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really interested.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: What what is working too hard to you?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So well, I probably I mean, I do quite often work in my evenings, which but but then I get home, I get to spend some time with the kids, I have dinner with my husband, and then I choose to maybe log on and do some stuff later and you know, um yeah, maybe, maybe it would be good to work less, but I don't know.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm probably just not that person.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always gonna probably just work hard because it's just in my DNA.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Why do you think it's in your DNA?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's an interesting question, which one which I've sort of spent some time questioning myself.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of it comes back to upbringing.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: My parents were really hardworking.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: They ran two hotels at one stage and uh a boat business down on the south coast, and they were very hardworking.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, that probably comes a bit from there.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: So when it comes to hardworking, right?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, how do you you've done uh things that people really, really struggle to do to build a business with 150 million under management?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: There's not loads and abundance of people out there doing that, you know.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's pretty impressive.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think drives you though to do that?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, can you can you describe that?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, can you package it up?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: There's people sat there probably thinking, oh my god, I'd love to be able to hit 150 million under management.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: What would you say you'd have to do?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like what mindset?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what personally drives you to be able to hit those numbers?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's actually a sort of fear of a bit of fear of failure, a bit of a I'm generally a glass half-empty person.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I guess it stems back, probably some of it stems back to childhood, and there was a phase where you know money was a bit scarce.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my parents, I remember living through the phase where my parents had uh mortgage interest rates of 15%.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Which now you think, I mean, that's crazy.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and imagine how scary that is.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember, you know, money being quite tight, and I think that inherently has got into my psyche, and so I'm always striving to make sure that I have, I suppose, financial security for myself and my family.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that probably is where the drive and the hard working piece comes from originally.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Did you talk to your parents about money a lot when you were growing up?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: When you, you know, didn't no, not really.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, so it was more I overheard, you know, you overhear conversations, don't you, as kids?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they always wanted to shield me and my sister from the financial worry.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: But you I mean, you know, as kids, you just you know it, you sense it, you know it.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so no, we didn't really no, didn't particularly talk about money.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, actually, I say that there was um, I mean, my father ran a boat business down on the south coast where it was, I mean, it was cash, obviously, because everything was cash then.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: So he would come back at the end of the day with a money bag of cash from the day's takings.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, we used to count it on the kitchen table.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And as kids, we'd get involved, and that was the fun at the end of the day, the fun thing of counting all the money and seeing what the takings have been.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think the trouble was, as you can imagine, that there were a lot of days where the wind blows and you can't run the boat, or it rains and you can't run the boat.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So there was lots of days where the takings weren't where they needed to be, and you know, but so we didn't necessarily talk about money, but money was kind of, I suppose, involved.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: Do you talk about money with your children?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I do.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I do, but more from the perspective of so knowing that what drives me is that upbringing.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I think my husband and I talk a lot about obviously you want your kids to have things, you want them to, you know, enjoy life and go on nice holidays and do nice things, but you don't want I don't want them to lose that drive because if I think, well, that's what's driven my success, what I don't want them to do is be so comfortable that they haven't got that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we talk to them a lot about just working hard, and then working hard brings you, I suppose, financial rewards that allow you to do nice things and have what you want in life, maybe gives you more choices, I think.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: You hear the term choices.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: You hear the term scarcity mindset, don't you?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people say use the term scarcity mindset.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: Do you feel like a scarcity mindset is something that you have?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: But has that been a benefit to you in yes, I mean it's been a complete benefit because, as they say, that is what drives me um just yeah, wanting to, I suppose, yeah, have that financial security.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and I suppose it also drives me to wanting to do a really good job for clients.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what I really enjoy, feeling like I'm helping clients improve their financial circumstances.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I love that about my job.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I love discovering, meeting somebody new and discovering what their goals and ambitions are, what what are they trying to achieve, you know, and why?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's what I love about this job, you know.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Do you find that when you do sit down with people and they could be quite successful individuals or I work in investment banking, does it often sometimes surprise you that they have maybe their own emotional difficulties around money or management of money, or do you ever see that?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: Is it quite an idea of the way to do that?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, completely.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um well, it's quite common, yeah, you know, because I think everybody's got their own mental struggles they're struggling, you know, that they they have.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's yeah, I mean, I I think it's it's really nice over time to get to know clients really, really well.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd say most of my clients are friends, I'd consider them friends.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I hope they'd consider consider me a friend.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: But and then over time, people do just open up to you and realize, and there's a massive trust, you know, trust thing, um, and building that trust so people do feel they can actually open up.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because really, if you're trying to achieve some goals, you sort of need to understand what they are and where that's coming from, you know.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: Was there any piece of kind of training or development that you've received that's always stuck with you that you could pass on to someone listening now if you were to say to somebody, implement this, do this, and you will be a success.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: Was there anything that you learnt along the way, or anything that you could pass on to anybody to say, look, you know, if you do this consistently I think um I mean genuinely I try and just you know do my absolute best every single day.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Be I think in our practice we strive to a bit to have high levels of integrity, always do the right thing, always go above and beyond, because that's what then drives um referrals, things like that.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other, I suppose, tip that I would say is I've really I would seize every opportunity to learn from others.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was at JP Morgan, I worked with some incredible people, really bright, really uh, you know, just inspirational people.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you just use those opportunities.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I always say to kind of younger people coming through, just find every opportunity, ask people to go for a coffee, just talk to people, come in the office.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because, and I've and then at St.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: James's place, you know, I'm still really good friends with the sort of cohort of people that I came to the academy with.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And quite a lot of us are still here running really successful businesses, and we still meet, uh message each other, ask each other questions, whether it's about a client case or about something completely different, and building that network of people.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, again at SJP, there's some really inspirational partners.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we're big, even though you run your own business, you think we'd all be doing our own thing and there'd be a bit of competition.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, everyone I find generally to be really supportive and friendly, and everyone actually wants to kind of is happy to help each other, and that's really nice.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's the power because you need that when you're self-employed.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: You actually you you need that network.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I come in the office quite a lot because I like having other people around me.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: I find that I sort of thrive off that, I get a buzz off it.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I like being in London.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of that's the power of the partnership, though, isn't it?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we hear when you're gonna be able to do it.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is, it is.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it and quite often I think it's surprising to people coming in that there is that collaboration and people do, you know, genuinely are happy to help each other.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, fantastic.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: So you're building your own practice.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: How where's it going?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: How many people are you looking to hire?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: How how you know, how much AUM are you looking to build?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you you know, where are you going with this job?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Given the age of my kids.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: So my kids are 15 and 17.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm gonna need to be supporting them for probably quite some time.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're both hoping to go to university, you know, and so and I really do still genuinely love what I do.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So while that continues, I have no plans to do anything different.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I sort of say to clients, probably I'd like I'm still plan to be doing this over the next 10 years.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I haven't got a set AUM, you know, as oh, this is what I'm aiming to achieve.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I just I've never actually thought that way.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think originally my aim was to just earn what I earn at JP Morgan, but with the work-life balance of St.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: James's base.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I probably got there in about three years.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Three to four years.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: So realistically, three to four years, yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I remember senior partners saying to me, it just does take time.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: You do remember you are building a business from scratch, it is gonna take time.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you do have to be prepared for that if you're starting your own practice.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then it really the great thing about it is that there's no cap on your earnings.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's no there's no one, you know, you can work as hard as you want to work, and then the rewards will come.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas when you work for the big a big corporate bank, you know, your remuneration is very fixed.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, your bonuses depends on the rest of how the rest of the bank performs, and you know, you could work really, really hard and then the bank has a bad year and your bonus the bonus pool's cut in half.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And whereas it's it's so nice now to be in control of your own destiny, you know, to a large extent.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: Have you taken advantage of the um the practice buyout ecosystem here at St.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: James's Place where you're kind of always organically grown your business?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I um I've I did uh take on a very few clients from a partner that left that I'd actually worked with him on some of those clients doing some final salary pension transfer work.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I knew them.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I haven't really, no.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've just grown it and myself, and yeah.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: So no, that's all still untapped, but it'll be interesting.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Haven't fully decided how I'm gonna go, how and when, and you know, so enjoying the moment.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um so you've got two two women working in your business there, haven't you?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um no, there's actually it's actually a team of seven, including me.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: All female at the moment.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is it really?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now it that wasn't by design.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I'd like to say that I don't only go out to hire women.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: We have had men working in the practice who have been fabulous.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: We just happen to all be full female at the moment.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I mean the two advisors I probably did lean slightly more into maybe hiring women just because of the, as I said, about you know, taking on my clients.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: But the I have an amazing team of support staff um who are all amazing, and I couldn't actually have done this without them.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: So, do you do you feel like what was the turning point for your business like?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know, most people kind of hit a bit of a Ceiling, they get a bit exhausted, they can only spin so many places.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: What was the turning point of you actually sort of moving to the next sort of phase?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: And did it and how did it accelerate your business forward?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Was it hiring support staff?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Probably.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it has grown really gradually.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think there was any particular turning points or stumbling.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just grown slowly and organically and in quite a sort of, I suppose, a kind of calm, measured way, just through referrals.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose, yeah, there was a turning point fairly early on.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: I used to share um with two other partners, we shared um a support person staff member who was fabulous.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then it got to a point where I sort of thought, I just really need more.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I sort of broke away and hired somebody else.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and that, yeah, having somebody else in your practice um was great to just help with all the admin, you know, and mean you can focus more on clients.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: But still, you know, I mean, I remember that was such a big leap because I suddenly thought, oh my god, I'm gonna have to pay her salary now.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what if I don't write any business next year?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: What am I gonna do then?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and every single time I've hired someone, I always worry about it.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course it's fine.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, people always say you should hire before you get to that point, of course.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: But it's interesting because I go through hard, isn't it?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I worry about that sort of thing.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I worry, I worry about the team, you know, the rest of the team, always constantly, you know, because it's not just me anymore.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's being a business owner, isn't it?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: And hiring people, it takes us a whole nother level of worry that that sort of builds up.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: I used to have a recruitment business with 25 people in it.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: I look back on that and I think crikey, like the amount of you know, managing people as well was never my one of my strengths managing.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, not mine either.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's hard.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have a great practice manager now who helps with that.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: There we go.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I practice management.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Delegate things you're not good at.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Ideally.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is the big tip over time.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you can.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: This is the big tip.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: So one thing I would definitely want to ask you as well is that you got to 150 million.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: Lots of people then look at business now think that they have to lean directly into things like social media, paid for advertising, marketing.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like this silver bullet of generating clients.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: How do you feel about that?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: And is it something you actually ever did?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Are you asking me that because you've looked and realized that I don't do any social media?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: Trying to trying to pick up some business.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I mean, I yeah, I I'm probably a bit old school, I have to say.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I have just built it through word like referrals, and I do just talk to my clients about asking them if they have other friends, colleagues that I could speak to.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really back to old school.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really do anything in the social media space.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um now, you know, you could say, well, I can I could sit back and have the luxury of a nice client bank, and people do refer, I get lots of referrals.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I do, I know my advisors are doing more in that social media space, one of them in particular, um, and it does, you know, it's it's going well for her.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, yeah.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's lots of different avenues to get clients, and the key is to just get yourself out there in whatever way feels comfortable.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: And with the SJP with SJP, well, you know, when you you lean into the ecosystem, when you have had, I don't know, maybe some self-doubts, some struggles or anything like that.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: How important is the partnership to you to keep you on track?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hugely, hugely powerful.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's either through that network of colleagues who are doing exactly the same thing, have exactly the same anxiety, have the same ups and downs.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's been probably the most important thing.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: But secondary, you do have that safety net feeling like you're part of a bigger firm.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think clients like that as well, that it's not just me in a practice on my own.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I wouldn't have wanted to have done it without the support network of St.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: James's Place behind um, you know, everything from you know, your CPD, your compliance, all of that stuff that you just know is taken care of.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but and you you do get aligned a sort of business partner that's employed by St.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: James's Place.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had some excellent business partners along the way who've really helped be inspirational.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are really good business coaches, um, you know, and they they kind of help you those days where you're doubting it and wondering where you're gonna get to.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, no, SGP has been has been great, and you know, I don't have any regrets.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: But what about the sort of buyout option side of it as well?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: So you're building a business that you actually eventually can sell.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you are.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: Wasn't that something that when you came through the door and talked to St.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: James's place, yeah, did that make you go, well, hang on, that's pretty cool.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: Because it literally will put a blueprint in front of you to build a business that eventually that you can exit and have a sale value.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: And does that does that play a part in your motivation?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Are you motivated by the the figure at the end at all?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a little bit.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say it probably didn't actually play much part when I joined because of course, remember, I didn't wasn't sure I was even going to build a successful business.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: My main goal was just earning an income to live off and support my family.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really think about what was going to happen in 20 years down the line.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but yes, it is really powerful, and it's very nice to think that that is an option.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not as easy as it sounds, because obviously you have to find the right people to want to buy your practice, to want to that you I would feel comfortable taking on my clients, and that I know is gonna be really hard for me because back to the fact it took me three years to find an advisor.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think I I feel very passionately about my clients, so I really want them to be looked after well.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that will be a very hard challenge for me.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm gonna, I know SJP say you really need to start thinking about it probably five years out to kind of well, partly emotionally deal with it, but also just get it, you know, get the right structure in place.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's something that's sort of in the back of my head, but I'm not, you know, it's not the huge focus right now because I'm not planning to do it in five years.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: But the good thing is, and the way I look at it with SJP as well, and I'm from speaking to financial uh advisors that have gone through the whole process, is that again it's the ecosystem, it's there to support you.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been done before, now do it again, and when the time's right and the conversations are to be had, because they've got the level of experience of helping other people go through it, it's not like you have to kind of like sit there on your own and go out to the open market and wonder how the hell will you do this.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's there's a plan in place, there's a there's a blueprint.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that there's lots and lots of colleagues and people coming through.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I I always think if you I'm always quite happy to give my time to go and mentor someone or go and have a coffee with someone.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think I always think, well, all of those connections I make along the way, some of those people might in the future be the people that might take on my business.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think if you if you give something back, you hope it'll come back to you some point, full circle.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's what we hope.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: So from JP Morgan to SJP to nearly 150 million under management, and it doesn't sound like you're stopping.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, not at the moment.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's a it's a fantastic career story, and especially from somebody that's come from the banking side, because I think it's such an untapped area.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I think one of the one things I would take away uh from a conversation with you is just how important that network is that you build within the environment that you're in.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to step too far to the left or too far to the right to realize that you have a network that you can actually start to service and offer a level of service that they're probably never used to, but there is an assumption that they might be.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think you've all the work that you did in your prior career, you know, working hard, demonstrating that you were good at your job, being a nice colleague, being trustworthy, being someone that people would come to in that other world, all comes back to you because those people then say, Well, I know you, I know you know what you're talking about in terms of investments, and I trust you, which is the the third that was the biggest one.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: I trust you.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and that's what most clients are looking for when you meet them.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to build a rapport and have that trust.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: So brilliant.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Karen, thank you so much today for sharing your career journey.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's been enjoyable on the Financial Pala Life.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: And uh your first bit of social media then will pop out soon.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, scary.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: Karen, thank you so much.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.