Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 128. Freedom In The Church - Bible Colleges with Dr Marcus Merritt

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128. Freedom In The Church - Bible Colleges with Dr Marcus Merritt · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:04
Welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
0:10
I found my freedom of you. I found a joy I can't lose.
0:19
And thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
0:23
and heaven broke through From the moment she found me.
0:28
I found my freedom in you. This podcast exists to bring the
0:35
freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
0:38
everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James
0:42
Seyfried and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the Full Freedom
0:48
Podcast. We are so great to be in the
0:52
series of what we're at right now and got an interview lined
0:55
up today with Doctor Marcus Merritt, PhD, Doctor of
1:00
Ministry. There's there's like 15 other
1:02
titles that I'm probably forgetting that we're going to
1:04
interview with him. Yeah, yeah, so many letters
1:07
there. And so we're going to interview
1:08
with him a little later. But before we get started,
1:12
Brett, we had a wonderful Easter Sunday and I hope you had a
1:17
great Easter Sunday. And a lot of things went on this
1:20
past weekend. We had our egg hunt, We had our
1:25
sunrise service. We had all those things that we
1:28
went through which were really, really cool first time here at
1:31
this church. And so I'm seeing sort of some
1:33
of the things that are a little different.
1:35
They do a sunrise service here, and I've done a sunrise service
1:39
at my former church, but the sunrise service here they do in
1:42
the graveyard. And so that was really cool.
1:46
People do here like I've asked people because I've done, I've
1:49
done sunrise services before, but I'm like, they do it when
1:53
they've done it in the past, they do it in the graveyard and
1:57
I know that's tradition, but man, it's so weird.
2:00
It is. Because I had never heard that.
2:01
Before, yeah. So seeing the sun come up right
2:04
over my shoulder and then being there in the graveyard, that was
2:07
a pretty, pretty neat experience.
2:09
But yeah, that was the first time we've done that for me.
2:12
But they're used to doing that there.
2:14
My former church, we did it inside and the youth would put
2:17
on like a Easter drama as a sunrise service and so I would
2:21
always do the message for Easter sunrise service and then our
2:24
youth would do the, the, the, the opening part of that.
2:28
So this little different this year, but exciting to see that
2:30
done. So how How was your guys's
2:32
Easter? Man, we had our breakfast at
2:35
8:30 and everything went well. We got stuffed in full.
2:39
We we have a really strong Sunday school at our church.
2:44
A lot of people attend Sunday school, but we dropped our
2:48
traditionally on Easter we drop our our Sunday school and we
2:52
have our main service. Instead of having it at 11, we
2:55
have it at 10. You know, so people can go get
2:59
their roasts and whatnot ready. I, I, I, I joke around with my
3:03
people and I say, look, even though we're having, you know,
3:06
main service at 10, you know, I'm still preaching at 12.
3:09
That's the time I got. So, you know, just because we
3:13
start earlier doesn't mean we're getting out any earlier.
3:16
You know, yes, I told them. Here to We didn't come here to
3:19
go home. Yeah, I told that to one of our
3:21
deacons. I think it was Christmas or it
3:25
was Christmas service. We moved back early because it
3:27
was Christmas Eve and I made the statement.
3:29
I said, well, I said Claude Junior told me that I need to be
3:33
done by 12:00 and it's 1030 right now.
3:37
So buckle in guys. We got an hour and a half and
3:40
you could just see the eyes like, oh, is he serious?
3:42
You know, what's what's going on here?
3:44
But yeah, that's I tell them all the time.
3:46
I said I get to go till 12 and I'll be out by 12, don't worry
3:50
exactly. But overall, man, we had a great
3:54
Easter Sunday. It was just great.
3:56
It's my favorite time of year to just focus in.
3:59
I tell them, I tell everybody, you know, we should always focus
4:02
in on the resurrection and the cross, but this is just a
4:05
special time that we set aside to really focus in on it.
4:10
And a lot of people came to church, haven't been in a while,
4:13
and it was just a great Sunday. We had a great time.
4:16
That's great. That's great.
4:18
Well, we've got Indiana coming up, man, and I can't wait.
4:22
It's right around the corner, man.
4:24
We're in April and we are just ready to go and we are just
4:31
right around the corner from that and and being able to go to
4:33
the convention, we were able to talk with Marcus.
4:36
He's going to be there. We're going to try to do some
4:39
live recordings with him in person and hopefully we'll be
4:43
able to see some other friends there in June and I'll be able
4:46
to have some other meet ups as well.
4:48
And if you're planning on being there, let us know.
4:50
We'd love to meet up with you. And then Brett, what's up next?
4:54
But I but on that, I've had several people say, man, I'm
4:57
going to be there. Hey, listen, if you're coming to
4:59
Indianapolis, please look us up. Let us know.
5:04
You know what made it, James? Maybe we should have a Booth for
5:08
Freedom podcast. You know, you know how expensive
5:11
it is to get a booth at the convention.
5:13
I do not. OK, we don't have but.
5:15
Listen this This podcast makes us so much money, that's not
5:18
going to be a problem. Absolutely.
5:20
We're when we're rolling in the dough over here with our
5:22
podcast. I mean Patreon is is banging out
5:25
over there, but. Our merch shells, Brett, are out
5:28
of the world. I mean, we're millions of
5:31
dollars a week in merch, so. I mean, seriously, dude, this
5:35
this hoodie that I wear every day, it's always a new one.
5:39
Like, I wear it. Want to throw it away?
5:42
Put on a new one. Because we sell so many of them.
5:44
The next thing we have on our calendar is Catoosa.
5:47
We have, for the sake of the Gospel Conference in Fort
5:50
Oglethorpe, Georgia. Which I would have never been
5:54
able to pronounce that. That's why.
5:56
That's why he calls it Hope Church Catoosa and but we're
6:01
going to be at Hope Church Catoosa at J CS Church and come
6:05
to the force of the sake of the Gospels Gospel conference.
6:08
It's going to be, you know, a bigger deal this year than it's
6:11
ever been before. JC is going to do it right and
6:16
we're going to be there at his church and it's going to be a
6:19
great time, great time to recharge, great time to refresh.
6:24
And you know, just get along with some, you know, some fellow
6:29
recovering fundamentalists as yourselves and fellow fans of
6:32
the For Freedom podcast and we would love to meet you and be
6:36
there with you. J CS you know we're going to be
6:38
there that weekend Sunday. Me and James is going to start a
6:42
A bus route at J CS Church Goldfish Sunday.
6:46
Swallowing. At home, we're going to get JC
6:48
to swallow that goldfish. Yep.
6:50
Always. We're actually going to put the
6:53
goldfish on his head and it's going to jump off of his bald
6:56
head and into his mouth. Exactly.
6:59
Exactly. When I When I swallowed the
7:01
goldfish, I always chased it with a Mountain Dew.
7:03
I was the only way I could otherwise swim back up my
7:06
throat, not pickle. Juice.
7:09
No, not pickle juice. I had to get the had to get the
7:11
Mountain Dew. But we've got the For the Sake
7:14
of the Gospel Conference. And then next year, James, tell
7:18
us about it. I'm so excited.
7:20
Israel is coming up, man. I can't wait.
7:22
It's so good. We talk about it every week.
7:24
We're going to take a series when we come back from the
7:27
summer and spend four to six weeks just talking about Israel,
7:31
having some friends that went with us to Israel talk about
7:34
their experience. We're going to talk about our
7:36
experience. And man, we're just so excited
7:38
about going and allowing you to be able to partner with us and
7:42
going with us. And so we would love for you to
7:45
join us. That's the first second week in
7:47
March of 2025 and so a little less than a year away and we
7:52
would love, absolutely love, most affordable trip.
7:55
You'll go on to Israel $5000 and that's all in everything, total
8:00
cost of everything. So we'd love for you to join us
8:02
with that and join our group that's growing every day.
8:07
And we still have some spots left for you to join us on that.
8:12
This past Sunday, man, I had two people in church say two guys
8:16
come up and say, look, we want to go put us down.
8:19
And so I had two more spots filled.
8:21
And listen, me and James have got some insider info.
8:25
I mean, this info is so insider that if the government knew
8:30
about it, they'd put us in jail. That's how much of an inside
8:33
information this is. We are insider trading right now
8:36
with this information. Our Israel trip is more a
8:41
reality now than it has been this whole time.
8:43
I know there's things going over there, we understand that.
8:47
But you know, there are tours. We have it on good authority
8:51
that there are tours on the ground right now in Israel.
8:54
They're safe, safer now than it's ever been.
8:57
And we this this trip is a reality.
9:00
It it is, it is going to happen. Love it.
9:04
Love it. Can't wait and what also is
9:06
going to happen is an amazing interview that we have lined up
9:09
with the doctor, Marcus Merritt who met us in Israel, who was
9:15
there in Atlanta. We got to meet up with him.
9:18
I actually Brett got to park with him and we sort of met
9:22
together there in Atlanta for the first time there, got to
9:25
really meet up and get to know him on our journey.
9:28
And then really the reason why Brett and me are on this podcast
9:33
together is because of the for freedom, not the for freedom.
9:37
The RFP leading that trip to Israel and putting us into a
9:40
closer connection and been able to spend that time there in
9:44
Israel. And I remember walking there on
9:46
the Sea of Galilee, and I said, Brett, we we got to do this trip
9:50
together again. And then our we planned the trip
9:55
together before I even come on the podcast.
9:57
Yeah, and our our brotherhood just began to grow together and
10:01
love for one another began to talk and know that we had mutual
10:04
friends that. Unite.
10:07
Absolutely. The the love it man.
10:10
And so Brett is is part of that. For me, part of that brotherhood
10:14
that came out of going to Israel and it was really all because of
10:18
Marcus putting that strip together for the RFP.
10:21
And so the brotherhood and the friendships that you'll get, the
10:24
sisterhood that you'll get from going on that trip will be a
10:28
friendship that you'll forever have and moments that you'll
10:30
always have together. And so hopefully you'll come
10:33
with us, but that leads us right into Marcus's interview and and
10:37
we'll be talking about that. But Brett, right before we get
10:39
started what What's your thought on that but?
10:42
Before we throw to the interview, can we consider
10:45
Marcus a doctor if he doesn't have an honorary RFP doctorate
10:49
yet? Oh, he did.
10:52
Does he have one? Well, if if he does, that's the
10:55
only reason why we can. Yeah, yeah.
10:58
He'll add those letters to the end of his name.
11:00
Yes, absolutely RFP. At the end.
11:03
All right, well, without further ado, here is the interview with
11:06
Marcus Merritt. All righty.
11:08
Today on the podcast we've got Doctor Marcus Merritt with us
11:12
over to Luther Rice Seminary. Good friend of ours for the
11:16
Marcus. How are you doing today?
11:17
I'm doing well, Brett, thank you so much for having me on the the
11:21
podcast today. Love you and James and I was
11:24
delighted when you invited me to join.
11:26
It's great man. I thank you for being able to
11:27
come on today and with we're recording this the week of the
11:31
Holy Week and so we're we're having spring break next week.
11:34
So I'll be out of town and we're sort of recording a little bit
11:37
of a head. But me and Brettt met with
11:41
Marcus when we went to Israel and man, our hearts bonded and
11:45
just was able to experience the Holy Lands together.
11:47
And so man we are excited about having you come on.
11:50
We're doing the in the Church series and me and Brett have
11:53
really enjoyed this this first part of the year that we've
11:56
done. And we've talked through
11:57
different issues of worship. We've talked through different
12:00
issues of structure and we had Brian Edwards come on abuse in
12:03
the church. But, but the question and and we
12:06
talked about this last week was college and seminaries in the
12:11
church. And so we'll get into that in a
12:13
minute. But Marcus, for the sake of our
12:15
listeners, will you introduce yourself, Tell us sort of your
12:19
ministry, your marriage, your life, the things that sort of
12:22
make you Doctor Marcus, marriage.
12:25
Well, I'll, I will try not to bore the audience too much, but
12:29
I was called into ministry about the time that I got married.
12:33
It would have been 1984. In fact, I told my wife when I
12:37
proposed to her that I felt like God was calling me to be in the
12:41
ministry, was calling me to be a preacher, and, you know, if she
12:45
was going to marry me, was she OK with that?
12:46
And she said yes, of course. And then later on she
12:50
acknowledged that she said, I did not think you were serious.
12:54
I could not picture you behind the pulpit preaching.
12:57
I just thought that was something that you said.
12:59
But she's been very, very supportive all these years.
13:03
And I, for about 10 years, was just a preacher in my church and
13:10
in 1994 was called to pastor the Antioch Baptist Church in
13:13
Cedartown. My home church ordained me at
13:16
that point, and then in 2000 I took a church in Alabama, the
13:20
Macedonia Baptist Church in Renburn, Alabama.
13:23
Both those churches were Southern Baptist churches.
13:25
The church I came out of had been Southern Baptist but went
13:28
Independent Baptist. And so technically I came out of
13:32
a an IFB church, although we would classify it as IFB Light.
13:37
But just my home church and the two churches I pastored nothing
13:42
but great experiences. I have no bad stories or or
13:45
anything like that, just wonderful people.
13:48
I've been back to both churches preaching funerals and
13:50
homecomings over the years and just love those people dearly.
13:55
While I was at my second church, things were going great.
13:59
We had, we were always led the association in baptisms and we
14:03
had, we were the largest church in the association with all the
14:05
accolades and all that great stuff.
14:07
Not that any of that matters, but just to kind of give you
14:09
context. And Dr. Sandy Gilbreth with the
14:13
Alabama Baptist Convention called me one day out of the
14:16
blue and asked me if I would join the evangelism staff at the
14:19
Alabama convention. And I said I I don't even know
14:21
what that would be. What would that be like?
14:24
And so he invited me down to Montgomery and and we just felt
14:27
God calling us to that. So we resigned the the pastoral
14:31
ministry there in Renburn and went to the Alabama convention.
14:34
And three years later the Georgia convention called and
14:38
said, would you come to Georgia and and serve on the evangelism
14:42
staff at Georgia. Both of these came to me out of
14:44
the blue. I didn't apply for them.
14:46
I didn't position myself for them.
14:48
I didn't know either job existed until I got the phone call.
14:53
And so we went to Georgia and we served there.
14:55
And my last role at Georgia, I served as the director of Church
14:59
Ministry relations for the 3600 churches that make up the
15:03
Georgia Baptist Convention. And that was just, I felt like
15:06
the the greatest ministry of our career of our ministries was
15:10
serving in that capacity. And in 2020, we took the the
15:15
early retirement and left the Georgia Baptist Mission Board.
15:18
But you know, didn't really know what I would do.
15:22
And I was teaching as an adjunct professor at Luther Rice and
15:27
they called me while I was in that period of working out my
15:31
last days as a as a director of church minister relations with
15:35
the Georgia convention. And they said, hey, we're
15:38
looking for somebody to come full time at Luther Rice.
15:41
And we know, you know, a lot of people.
15:43
Could you recommend somebody to me?
15:47
I said. Well, as a matter of fact, I
15:49
know a guy. Right.
15:51
Right. And so that was me and I've been
15:54
here full time since January 1/20/21 in the role of.
16:00
I wasn't hired in this role, but I'm now I serve as the the
16:02
director of the Doctor of Ministry program.
16:05
Love the path that got me here as twisting and turning as it
16:09
was and all the different ways that God has allowed me to serve
16:13
in his ministry in the different capacities.
16:15
And I'm just honored to be to be sitting here today recounting
16:19
all of that, all of God's goodness with you.
16:22
Love it. One of the things that I love
16:24
that JC says all the time is the power of someone's story and
16:28
that we've had many people come on and share their story of of
16:31
going through abuse or whatever situation it may be.
16:35
But even in our story of ministry and and God leading us
16:38
from one place to another and seeing his ultimate plan work
16:42
out when we don't even understand it, but we look back
16:45
and we say, man, that that was only God that could have allowed
16:48
that to happen. You know, when I was called to
16:50
the ministry where I'm at now, the lady sat down with me.
16:54
Just a couple of weeks ago we had lunch with her and she said
16:57
we would narrowed it down to three candidates and she said
17:00
your resume was was not. She said it was one of those
17:03
ones we got but I had not. It was like a sample resume and
17:08
we were talking about but but she said I thought that you had
17:10
told us no that you you weren't interested.
17:13
And she said when we divvied up the three resumes for someone to
17:16
call your resume got put in one of those folders.
17:21
And so when one of the ladies called me back and said you were
17:24
interested, she said his name's not even on the list.
17:28
Why did you call him? And And they just began sort of
17:32
laughing like, well, I don't know, but he's interested.
17:34
So they begin exploring and praying and then and then a
17:37
couple months later they, they called me and and asked me to
17:39
come be their past. So seeing some of those things
17:42
and and the details that God works out behind the scenes is,
17:45
is fantastic to see. And so thanks for that Brett.
17:49
What's that ask? Go ahead and go to the next
17:51
thought or Brett give you some some response to that as well.
17:54
Marcus let me just start out by saying that you've been become
17:59
such a good friend of mine in in the ministry the time we shared
18:02
in Israel. That's a bond that was created
18:06
that, you know, when I take future groups of Israel, Marcus
18:09
Merit is going to be, he's going to be my guide and and the
18:13
patience that you so people who lag behind is legendary.
18:19
I didn't say it, but, you know, I I know, I know personally
18:23
from, you know, we're talking about going from, you know, the
18:26
pastorate into, you know, a different chapter in the
18:30
ministry. It can be an emotional thing.
18:32
I remember when I was at my last church.
18:34
I mean, there was a part of me that really, really wanted to
18:37
go, but then there was another part of me that was just like it
18:41
was tearing my heart out to to go and into this other chapter.
18:45
I really didn't want to go anywhere.
18:46
So. So I I know you kind of talked
18:49
about it, you know, broadly, but kind of in a narrower sense.
18:53
What what did it feel like or what kind of process did you go
18:57
through from leaving the pastorate to become an educator?
19:00
Was it? Well, what was that transition
19:02
like? Well it it was it was an
19:05
emotional transition as to start with and here we sit all these
19:09
years later and and I know I'm giving myself a compliment that
19:14
I don't deserve when I say this. But I still think of myself as
19:19
having a pastor's heart. And it it's unfair for me to say
19:23
that because I don't carry the burden that a pastor carries.
19:26
But I still have that heart in my chest beating in my chest,
19:29
the heart of a pastor. And that's kind of I feel like
19:33
that's in my DNA. I've tried to over the years.
19:37
I've done 12, we call them transitional pastrates, think in
19:41
terms of an interim and again it's not the same.
19:45
Let me just under score that it's not the same.
19:49
But these interims, transitional pastrates and I'm in one right
19:53
now, they average between 12 and 18 months that I'm there.
19:58
So it's a long. Way around to answer your
20:02
question is that you never get it out of your system.
20:05
You're always doing something to feed that that pastoral calling
20:09
that God has put you into. I don't think serving the state
20:12
convention when I as a matter of fact, when I was with the
20:15
Alabama convention, I served concurrently with the North
20:18
American Mission Board. So I was serving Nam and the
20:21
Alabama convention at the same time.
20:23
But I don't think that the Georgia convention, Luther Rice,
20:26
I don't think any of it fully satisfies that pastoral itch
20:30
that you have. And even doing these
20:32
transitional pastorates don't fully satisfy it.
20:35
So unless God is calling you into something else, I don't
20:43
think you'll ever, you'll ever be satisfied if God is, if
20:48
you're a pastor. I feel like in my life, God has
20:51
called me into the pastorate, and then God called me into
20:54
these other ministries that allowed me to still kind of have
20:58
my foot in that world a little bit, but yet not be a pastor.
21:02
So I would be miserable if I didn't feel like God called me
21:06
to be where I am today. I preach literally.
21:11
I'll have one to two Sundays a year off.
21:14
I mean, that's it. I'm in the pulpit every, every
21:16
week, so I feel like I'm still in the world, but I'm not a
21:20
pastor. And you guys, if you tried to do
21:25
this without a call and you'd be miserable, you'd be like, hey,
21:28
I'm, I'm. I'm cheating here.
21:29
God's called me to be a pastor. So you know what I mean?
21:32
You know, God calls us in, God calls us out, God moves us
21:36
around. While I'm still in ministry, I'm
21:39
not in pastoral ministry, but I teach pastoral ministry.
21:43
So if that makes sense. It's a rambling answer, but it's
21:46
the best I can do. It's God that that has moved us
21:49
around, and God's put me where I'm at.
21:51
I still feel like I'm a pastor, even though I'm technically not.
21:55
But that's where my heart is. Amen, Amen.
21:59
It's a good word like that. Love that.
22:01
And as we as we continue this thought of seminaries, one of
22:05
the things in the the question that gets asked often is should
22:11
the church be the local training ground or should we send men and
22:17
women off to seminary in college, You know when I went
22:21
into ministry, one of the things my pastor sat down with me and
22:25
hindsight, I I know why he did this.
22:28
He he didn't. I was a worker.
22:30
I was someone who was teaching. He didn't want to lose someone
22:33
and potentially never come back because I was going into
22:36
ministry. But he said the best thing for
22:38
you to do, son, is stay right here and serve under me.
22:41
I'll be your teacher. I'll be your trainer.
22:43
That's what biblically, that's what you should do.
22:45
And I said, well, I said I knew that I was going to go to Bible
22:48
college. I knew God had was calling me in
22:50
the ministry. I knew I wouldn't get the
22:52
training that I needed while I was in that church.
22:55
And so for part of me was was guilty, you know, am I?
22:59
Am I disobeying my pastor? Am I doing what I shouldn't do?
23:03
Am I doing the wrong thing by going to college?
23:06
And so where does seminaries? And we're going to do an episode
23:09
in a couple of weeks about Para Church Ministries.
23:12
And I would say seminaries would be a para church ministry.
23:15
But where does that fit into the local church?
23:17
And how does that fit into the local church?
23:20
Several different ways, you know.
23:23
Second Timothy 22. You have the the quintessential
23:26
discipleship paradigm there. Paul discipling Timothy who's
23:30
discipling faithful men, who's discipling others.
23:33
And that certainly is a local church didactic teaching
23:38
ministry and really that's what seminary is.
23:40
It's just, it's just discipleship.
23:43
It's teaching, teaching people the truths and the doctrines of
23:47
God. Back in the Old Testament, you
23:50
know you you can locate the school of the prophets In the
23:54
Old Testament you can you can find those scriptures relating.
23:57
So there was some type of formalized training going on
24:01
there. Now, the New Testament, we know
24:03
there were rabbis like Gamaliel and people like Paul who was
24:06
Saul of Tarshish, left Tarshish and was sent to Jerusalem to to
24:10
to be schooled under Gamaliel. And then first, second
24:14
centuries, third centuries, the monasteries, you know, where
24:17
monks studied and wrote and copied the scriptures and were
24:21
trained and all of that's going on along with people being
24:26
trained on the at the local church level as we get into the
24:31
New Testament times, first, second, centuries.
24:33
So I don't think it's either or, I think it's both.
24:35
And I think there are men and women in various ministries,
24:41
obviously, who will be called to more formalized training, to who
24:48
would be called to go away, as it were, to more formalized
24:52
training as as Saul left Tarshus and went to Jerusalem to be
24:56
formally trained under Chameleon.
24:58
And so there's there's pastors that will be formally called,
25:03
you know, to either move and go off to school somewhere or to do
25:07
it online or whatever. And then there's others that
25:12
that won't be called to that type of formalized training that
25:15
will be taught under a pastor that whose ministry will look
25:18
something different. For example, you know, Peter
25:23
Peter's training was under Jesus.
25:26
I mean, that's the greatest teacher there ever was.
25:27
You can't. Get no better.
25:28
Than that that's right. And Peter there being trained
25:35
under Jesus, the first half of the book of Acts.
25:38
Peter's leading the way, by the way on those southern steps
25:42
where we stood in sangs, where Peter stood and preached on the
25:45
day of Pentecost. On those same southern steps is
25:48
where rabbis taught their their students.
25:51
No doubt Jesus taught Peter on those southern steps.
25:55
And being trained, you know, locally, thereby Jesus.
25:59
He led the way. The first half of the book of
26:01
Acts, then the second-half of the book of Acts.
26:04
A man who certainly did not have a better teacher than Jesus.
26:07
But I'm just, I'm going formal versus informal.
26:09
A man who got a formal Recognized Trainer teaching
26:13
education. A man who would have had what we
26:15
would call a PhD in our modern times.
26:18
A man named Paul led the second-half of the Book of Acts.
26:22
Which man's better? Well, they're neither's better.
26:25
Both men were had an important part in church history.
26:28
Peter, the first half, Paul the second-half.
26:31
And and I think that's a great picture of some men have this
26:36
formal training, other men they've been with Jesus.
26:38
You know, we take note that these men have been with Jesus
26:42
and they have their own ministries.
26:43
And you could even look at the great pastors and evangelists of
26:47
of modern times. Some had formal training, some
26:49
didn't. So I don't think it's either or
26:51
I think it's both ants. Some men are called and trained
26:54
locally. Some men are called to go away
26:57
to more formalized training. That's that's the best I can do
26:59
with that. Yeah.
27:01
So I was kind of taught kind of the same way that James was
27:04
taught, man, you don't need your diploma.
27:06
I'll be here. I'll equip you.
27:08
The Holy Spirit will be your teacher.
27:11
But then, you know, at the minimum, our pastors, especially
27:15
my pastors, say don't go to those cemeteries.
27:18
They're full of Ted people. You don't need letters after
27:22
your name. You don't need no fancy
27:23
accredited degree. And but I've come to know now at
27:27
this stage that the knowledge that I have gained just from
27:31
going back to an accredited Bible college, I start seminary
27:35
this coming August. We're just going back to
27:37
accredited Bible college and getting that knowledge and
27:40
taking some of the classes that I would take in a seminary has
27:43
just in my opinion has been priceless, especially if you're
27:48
going to go and and preach the word.
27:51
Now Segwaying into our next question, I've I I've looked for
27:56
churches before. I've.
27:58
I've searched for churches. I've sent my resume out.
28:01
I put my resume on job boards in several different states.
28:06
So I've been through this process and there are churches
28:10
out there that man, as long as you know at least you got a
28:13
Bible degree or Bible college degree, they'll they'll talk to
28:16
you. But then there are other
28:18
churches that man, if you don't have at least a master's, no,
28:22
they're not even going to look at your resume and that that's
28:25
been my experience. So I'd like to ask, to be in the
28:28
ministry, does a degree need to be held in today's society?
28:34
Well, Brett, that's a great question and and I'll give you
28:39
a, a, a for A. For instance, I have a friend.
28:41
I won't call his name because I don't want to embarrass him, but
28:44
he's pastor of a First Baptist Church, a large, prominent First
28:50
Baptist Church in Georgia, and he has a high school diploma.
28:54
But the man is an avid reader. He's one of the greatest
28:58
preachers you'll ever hear. He kind of came up.
29:02
IFB but he's. You know, a solid, a solid
29:04
Southern Baptist now and preaches in all the different
29:08
preaching conferences and but he has no formal education and he's
29:14
told me himself that they're churches that you know, in the
29:17
past have like expressed interest in him and then find
29:20
out he has no, no formal education and they're just, you
29:22
know, he's anathema to them. They don't want anything to do
29:25
with him. Is it necessary?
29:27
Is the question. Obviously it's not necessary.
29:30
It is very helpful and I think there's a ditch on on either end
29:35
of that. We all know people who have
29:37
accredited degrees, accredited real degrees that have no
29:44
business in pastoral ministry. They're horrible preachers,
29:48
they're terrible leaders and they just really shouldn't be
29:51
where they're at. And they have no track record of
29:54
God's blessing or breathing on their ministry in any way.
29:58
And so just thinking, well, this degree is going to get me where
30:01
I need to go. I think, I think, I think if we
30:04
can say it, I think you're you're you enrolled in New
30:06
Orleans. That's where my doctorate is
30:08
from, is from the new new the New Orleans Baptist Theological
30:11
Seminary And and there was a time if you had a, A, a
30:15
doctorate from New Orleans, man, I mean that just wrote the
30:18
ticket for you. It's not the case anymore.
30:23
It it, it, it may open a door, but you got to prove that God's,
30:28
you know, blessed your ministry for that, for you to continue on
30:31
with that. And education, I I think it
30:35
prepares us, doesn't qualify us. It prepares us for ministry.
30:42
The Holy Spirit has got to call us There got to be a call.
30:45
And I tell my students, just all the time, when times get tough,
30:49
you're not going back to that degree and saying, well, This is
30:52
why I'm going to continue on because I got this diploma
30:54
hanging on my wall. It's not going to do it.
30:57
It doesn't qualify you. The Holy Spirit of God calls
31:00
you, He qualifies you. And when times get tough and
31:04
when those deacons turn on you, and when the church is, it's
31:07
that calling that we go back to. So that's what's necessary.
31:11
We must be called by God. God equips those, He calls.
31:14
Now what the seminary does, what the education does, as you say,
31:18
it prepares us for ministry. In some ways you could argue
31:24
that it equips us. While we know the Holy Spirit,
31:26
the ultimate equipper, it does give us the the ability to to
31:30
have the the information to put together good sermons and no
31:33
background and no history and no the the hermeneutics to the
31:38
scriptures. But it's so it's not necessary,
31:43
but oh, how helpful it is and how much you're able to go
31:49
deeper into the scriptures. The more education, the deeper
31:52
you're able to take it. And that's one of the reasons I
31:55
think Paul is, is the prominent person in the second-half of the
32:00
book of Acts. It's because he did have that
32:02
education. He was able to link all of that
32:06
Old Testament imagery and all of the Old Testament practices and
32:11
tie that into the New test because of this deep theological
32:15
training that he had. And so I think what we do is we
32:18
set ourselves up by having the more education that we have, we
32:24
set ourselves up to be used by God in a greater capacity, but
32:28
it doesn't equip us. It doesn't call us, it just
32:31
helps us further our ministry and and perhaps get our foot in
32:36
the door somewhere that otherwise we would not have had
32:39
that ability. You said one thing, Deacons
32:44
turning on you. I don't understand that it's.
32:46
Yeah, it's something I read about in.
32:48
A in a book, Yeah. Well, and this isn't even part
32:53
of our thoughts, but I've got a pastor friend of mine.
32:56
He has a heart for churches. He's he's loves pastors, He
33:01
loves networking and he has been in the ministry for 30 plus
33:06
years. He's got a two year degree from
33:09
Fruitland and he he he said, man, if I could say this would
33:15
be the job that I want to finish the rest of my life would be
33:18
like a DOMA AM S director of missions, just in an
33:22
association, he said. Every time I see one of those
33:26
positions come open and I look at the the recommendations or
33:31
the qualifications to be in that position, he said.
33:34
Every single one of them is either a master or doctorate
33:37
level, Yeah, he said. How am I ever going to get to
33:41
that point? He said 30 years in the
33:42
ministry, I don't have time to go back to college, he said.
33:45
But yet that's their qualification and I don't know
33:49
if it's it's churches and and these, the associations are sort
33:53
of pigeon holing their, you know, they want a pastor that's
33:58
thirty, with 45 years of experience and a doctorate
34:01
degree. I don't like, I don't understand
34:03
why churches at some point are having this.
34:06
You know they want a guy that's LED but then they have and I'm
34:10
not saying that qualifications I mean butcher my question that
34:13
shouldn't be there. But I think often times we get
34:17
so caught up on, like Brett said, the the letters on the
34:20
back of the name and we don't we we isolate ourselves from men
34:25
that maybe just have a bachelor's degree like myself
34:28
and I'm working on. Or an associate's degree.
34:29
Yeah, even an associate's degree, you know, and and
34:32
they've they've they've done, they're they're they're well
34:34
qualified, they've they've proven themselves in the
34:37
ministry. But because they don't have
34:39
their specific degree now, they're not even ready for that
34:43
ministry. Even though, man, they would
34:46
take care of a ministry and they would take care of an
34:48
association. Well, but because they don't
34:51
have those those letters behind their name that all of a sudden
34:54
society looks at them in a different way.
34:56
And I and I don't know if it's because the the church has taken
34:58
on this CEO corporate role where you know you have to have a a
35:04
certain degree to be ACEO and and we've sort of taken that
35:08
model and we've turned it into the church.
35:11
So I don't, I don't, I don't have the answer.
35:13
Maybe you do but. Well, I I will tell you this,
35:17
during my my tenure at the Georgia Baptist Mission Board, I
35:21
I went in as I mentioned in evangelism.
35:23
But in 2012, I transitioned into the, the office of of Church
35:28
minister relations. And one of the things that we
35:31
did in that office that I served in from 2012 to 2020 is that we
35:36
trained pastor search committees.
35:38
Now, you know, churches are autonomous.
35:40
It's not like I went in there. I mean, when invited in by the
35:43
church, I would go in and train their pastor search committee.
35:46
And that was James. One of the very things that we
35:49
talked about was, yes, it's OK for you to have like a wish
35:54
list. You know, this is what we want
35:56
in a pastor and and I think you should have some something that
35:59
you're aiming at. But I said that very thing I
36:02
said, but understand there's a difference between saying we
36:06
would like for our pastor to have some seminary training at
36:09
an accredited institution. That's great to have that.
36:13
But I said you need to take it case by case because there may
36:17
be somebody out there just like you said we want someone with a
36:20
Master of Divinity degree. Back in the day that was 90
36:22
hours with 9 hours Hebrew and nine hours Greek, But that was a
36:27
weighty, weighty degree. It's OK to say we want a a
36:32
pastor with a an accredited Mdiv degree.
36:35
But I said make it word it. Ideally because there may be
36:41
someone just like the guy you described, just like that person
36:45
that is called by God, equipped by God had a little different
36:49
path. Hey, I didn't come out of high
36:52
school, go into college, get a four year degree, come out of
36:56
college with a four year degree and go into a a seminary working
36:59
on my master's. I didn't do that.
37:01
You guys probably didn't do that either.
37:03
Some of us have a little different path, and so you need
37:06
to follow the Holy Spirit. It's OK to say this is what
37:10
we're looking for, but mainly what we're looking for is God's
37:13
man, the man that God's got his hand on.
37:17
I'd rather have God's man with an associate's degree than to
37:21
have not God's man with a PhD. And you know, we both agree on
37:26
that. But the other side of that is
37:29
sometimes we we we pit one against the other and say if you
37:32
got a PhD you couldn't be a godly man.
37:34
Oh yes you can. We all know those godly called
37:39
men, equipped men that have have the higher education as well.
37:42
So just say ideally, but don't don't rule out the man that
37:46
doesn't have that. Yeah, one of the things that
37:49
when I came to this church six months ago and they were talking
37:52
to me, they had made the statement.
37:54
They said, well, you know, our because I've never even seen the
37:57
job description. They called me, I didn't, you
37:59
know, I've never even looked at it.
38:01
And so they said what's your education?
38:04
And I saw I've got a bachelor's degree from an unaccredited
38:07
Bible College in Arkansas and said, so I don't know where that
38:12
fits in with you guys. I said, but I've got 12 years of
38:15
experience behind my belt and I said I'm pursuing a degree, not
38:20
a degree but a certification and counseling at the ACBC.
38:24
I said it's the same program. If you went to Southern and and
38:27
went through Southern, it's the same program.
38:29
It's pretty much like maybe $1000 total that I'm going to
38:33
call that I'm going to pay for. I said but it would be an
38:35
equivalent of a master's degree and I said OK, I said are you
38:39
finished with that? I said no, not yet.
38:41
I'm still still in the process of it.
38:42
They said, OK, well that would that would meet our
38:44
qualifications. You know, you're going to have,
38:47
you're in pursuit of what's equivalent to be a master's
38:49
degree. I said, now don't get me wrong
38:51
guys, I said I won't have a master's degree.
38:53
I said, so if someone ever says that I'm not going to have that,
38:56
I said I'll have a certification in counseling and I'll have
39:00
certification to ACBC and IBCD to be a Christian biblical
39:04
counselor. And so that was sort of you know
39:07
their thing as we went through that was just trying to figure
39:11
out the nuts and bolts because we both matched up well.
39:14
And so they're trying to figure out and so the most flexibility
39:16
there and I like what you said used as a recommendation, not a
39:20
a stern point. I I do want to say very quickly
39:24
that when I was pursuing churches and sending out my
39:28
resumes and looking, of course I didn't meet the master's
39:32
requirements. But you know, I have a four year
39:36
bachelor degree from an unaccredited college and no
39:39
church ever said that wasn't good enough, you know, So I
39:44
don't want it. You know, people out there that
39:45
that maybe have a degree from an IFB college like me that's
39:50
unaccredited that you know, it gets discouraged.
39:53
I never had one. Church.
39:55
Look at my bachelor and say, oh, is this accredited or is this
39:58
not accredited? You know they out four years of
40:02
training was was good enough for them.
40:04
Now I I did need to take extra steps to get my masters, which
40:09
is what I did this May. I graduate from Trinity Baptist
40:13
College in Jacksonville with an accredited bachelor.
40:17
But as far as looking for churches and things like that,
40:21
the the degree I had was sufficient.
40:24
So I say that just to not there might be somebody out there that
40:28
is looking for a church that just has, you know, a four year
40:31
bachelor from an unaccredited college.
40:34
I don't want them to get discouraged.
40:36
You know there are churches out there that the fact that you
40:38
went though that there you spent that time you trained, that time
40:42
is is good enough for them. And Brad, I'll follow up on that
40:45
and say the same is true with our school.
40:47
You know Luther Rice, we have a sax accreditation, which is the
40:51
highest accreditation. You can have the same.
40:53
That's a New Orleans or Southern Seminary or Dallas Theological.
40:57
You know all of these, we have that highest level of
41:00
accreditation as they do. But if someone applied, and I
41:04
know this for a fact, because some of my students do, if
41:07
someone applies to our school and they have a degree from an
41:12
IFB school, an unaccredited IFB school.
41:14
Now I'm not saying it's automatic, but there is a
41:17
process and we often do take those credits.
41:21
So it's not like, you know, that person wasted their time.
41:24
I'm sure they learned something in in, in their education.
41:28
There's no doubt about that. And there's there's no doubt
41:31
that churches recognize it to your point, Brett, and that even
41:34
other schools can recognize it. I don't Doctor Steve Pray.
41:38
And by the way, isn't that a great name to have working at a
41:41
seminary? Doctor Steve Pray is her
41:44
registrar and and he's the one that goes through all those
41:46
credit things and tells what can be accepted, what can't be
41:50
accepted. But I know for a fact that some
41:52
of these schools, we do accept their credits.
41:55
So I'm with you, Brad. I want to encourage anybody.
41:58
If you're thinking you got an undergraduate degree or an
42:01
associate's degree and you'd like an accredited degree from a
42:04
Luther Rice, by all means apply. I mean, there's no telling what
42:10
could happen good, what good things might happen from that.
42:14
Yeah, One of the things about my wife was when we got our degree
42:18
in Arkansas, where her degree is in teaching and it's an
42:22
accredited degree in Arkansas. But when you leave the state of
42:24
Arkansas, it's just to be the paper.
42:28
And so we were finding all of our teaching ministers that she
42:31
was in except the most recent one she's at right now,
42:34
Statesville Christian School. And they're an accredited degree
42:37
through ACSI. They've got, you know, they're
42:39
very high standard of education. And she told them, she said, I
42:42
don't have an accredited degree. I've never taken my practice.
42:45
Like I've got 12 years of teaching experience, but I don't
42:47
have, you know, an accredited degree.
42:50
They said we'll handle all that. We like what you've got.
42:53
We'll accept all those things. And so when it came time to
42:57
begin to get her certified through ACSI, they said, hey,
43:01
can we get your transcripts of the classes that you took in
43:04
that college? And so I got the transcript,
43:07
sent it to them and they said it says here that you took
43:10
adolescent psychology. Did you take that class?
43:13
And my wife said, yeah, I took it, passed it with an A.
43:14
They said that's fine. That's all.
43:17
That's the only thing the ACSI required for her to take with
43:20
her to degree, they said, because so often colleges don't
43:23
require or have the kids take that class.
43:26
And it wasn't until, I think our senior year that class was
43:29
offered. And so she took it.
43:31
And because she took it, it allowed her degree to be
43:34
recognized as an accredited degree through that
43:36
accreditation program. I mean, it was something so
43:39
simple that we wouldn't have known unless we got that job.
43:42
And so there's there's so many different things like you guys
43:45
are saying that it's simply just asking questions, not just
43:49
taking this face value and beginning this process of of
43:53
making these. Sometimes you know I have the
43:56
guys that have left the left some of these colleges that have
43:59
what they say is just a piece of paper but it's it is showing
44:03
that there was an interest in formal education.
44:06
Whether the education was great or not there was an interest
44:10
there and you were dedicated to finish that four years and that
44:14
means more I think than than the the the bachelor's degree or
44:17
master's degree sometimes. So looking to the future of
44:22
colleges and seminaries where do you see this going?
44:26
You know I've I've talked to a a friend of mine just this last
44:29
week I had lunch with him and he got his doctor from New Orleans
44:33
Theological Seminary as well and he was in the.
44:36
He was in Georgia. They had an ajunct campus there
44:40
in Georgia with New Orleans and he was able to take some seated
44:43
classes there in Georgia and be in New Orleans on campus.
44:47
And one of the things he said was that was so appealing to New
44:50
Orleans was that he had this ability where he didn't have to
44:53
uproot his family, go to New Orleans and he could still have
44:56
seat hours. He could still be in that same
44:59
community of of of believers. And now with the online programs
45:04
and in person larger, smaller, what do you see the the future
45:08
of colleges and seminaries? Well, I mean we've got, I mean
45:11
you can basically audit most of Master Seminary's classes online
45:16
on YouTube because they've uploaded everything there.
45:18
I mean if I want to take a class, I could sit in my
45:20
computer and I could take the next year and just watch a
45:24
couple of courses. And John has done that.
45:26
He he's already in the class where he'll just watch the
45:29
classes. He's not writing the papers.
45:30
He's not reading the books. He's just getting the education.
45:33
And so where do we see this, this formal education in the
45:36
future going? Do you do you have have y'all
45:38
had this talk at Luther Rice? What?
45:41
What's? What's the the future of that?
45:43
Well, that's a great, great question and the answer is is as
45:48
varied as a people you speak to. But I think I have the right
45:51
answer. So let me give it to you.
45:54
First of all, I have I have 3 great learning institutes
45:59
institutions on my resume. All three are very, very
46:03
different schools. Luther Rice.
46:06
My undergraduate Luther Rice is, as I mentioned a moment ago,
46:11
largely we are like the second career choice for a lot of
46:15
people, people that are called to ministry later on in life.
46:19
Also Beeson Divinity School at Stanford University, which is a
46:23
very small divinity school on the campus of a college,
46:28
Stanford University. So Beeson is the divinity
46:31
school, the the seminary on the campus of the college.
46:35
They only have 300 students, and people come from all over the
46:39
world to live in Birmingham and go to this seminary.
46:45
The only reason I got in was because of someone I knew.
46:48
Trust me, it had nothing to do with my grades or my
46:53
undergraduate degree. Trust me, I got in Despite that.
46:56
Not because of that. Now do they limit that to 300 or
47:00
is that? OK.
47:01
Limited to 300. Yeah.
47:02
OK. I was wondering because you
47:04
said, yeah, just a. Question and literally I was in
47:06
class when I was working on my MDM.
47:08
I was in class with a lady from Russia who moved from Russia to
47:12
Birmingham and she was brilliant.
47:16
Just absolutely brilliant. And so people came from all over
47:18
the world and my one of my professors was an was an
47:21
Anglican from from England. He he has PhD from Oxford.
47:27
I mean it it was just a a huge egghead school.
47:30
So anyway so that's that's second and then the third is New
47:33
Orleans that I mentioned by my Dean in New Orleans.
47:36
So I think the the schools like like Beeson that are so niche
47:42
and small and have tons of money.
47:45
I think they're going to keep doing what they're doing, which
47:47
is only I I don't think they do anything online and I know they
47:51
don't have any like external campuses, but I think they'll
47:55
always be there and I think they're going to just until
47:58
Jesus comes, I think they'll be there and that's wonderful.
48:00
No, you know, no complaints with that.
48:04
Schools like New Orleans that has the the campus in New
48:08
Orleans. And when I did my Demon, I did
48:10
not have to go and live in New Orleans, but I did have to go
48:13
back a number of times and do the week long modules on campus.
48:18
But New Orleans also has the flexibility to have the
48:22
satellite centers like the one they have at Johnson Ferry.
48:25
They have one in Birmingham. A friend, Tina Knight, has
48:28
taught for many years at the Birmingham extension.
48:32
And so I think schools like New Orleans that have the
48:37
flexibility to have a campus and also to have the satellites, I
48:42
think they're going to be around for a long time because they're
48:44
flexible and they're they're they haven't changed the quality
48:49
of their education. They're still a very it's all
48:51
these they're very conservative in their theology.
48:54
And so I think there's always going to be a need for New
48:56
Orleans as they continue to morph and change.
48:59
Luther Rice. We have certainly gone through
49:02
much more metamorphosis than the other two schools I've that I've
49:05
I've been to Luther Rice started in 1962 because the Southern
49:11
Baptist schools have gotten so liberal.
49:13
Thank God they're not liberal anymore, but it's time they were
49:16
and it was on campus only in Jacksonville, FL.
49:19
Then they kind of morphed into this quote UN quote
49:22
correspondence school and that's sort of where Luther Rice got
49:25
its bad reputation for a number of years.
49:28
Oh, that's just a non accredit. It was.
49:30
It was a non accredited correspondence school.
49:32
Call it what it is, what it was. Thankfully, the school moved to
49:39
Atlanta Lithonia where current location is in the 90s and
49:43
continued for a while. You know, with their the
49:46
correspondence and not being accredited.
49:49
Somewhere along the line they got tracks, TRACS accreditation,
49:53
which was a step in the right direction and then they got a
49:56
BHE accreditation, which is another step in the right
49:59
direction. They dropped all the
50:01
correspondence stuff and it was on campus when I went.
50:04
When I did my undergraduate degree at Luther Rice, I came to
50:09
campus and I sat in classrooms and I was taught by professors
50:14
and we had a BHE and tracks accreditation and it was
50:17
quality. I've sat in classrooms at Luther
50:19
Rice, at Beeson, and at New Orleans.
50:21
I'm telling you it was quality at undergraduate education.
50:26
And then Luther Rice became pioneers in distance education.
50:34
In the past. They did it through
50:35
correspondence, which was not a great, but it was the best they
50:38
could do. But they became pioneers in
50:42
distance education online. Our delivery system had in the
50:48
past was Blackboard, Now it's Moodle.
50:52
Well, you'll a student will go on that week, watch a recorded
50:56
lecture, we'll have quizzes and and then there'll be live
50:58
interactions that student will have with the professor,
51:01
professor and the other students.
51:03
Kind of like a zoom thing. Is it the same as a classroom?
51:08
Probably not. But it's harder.
51:11
There's more work and so it's that's the future, James.
51:16
I think, I think for a Beeson the the future is just on campus
51:19
with quality. You know these highbrow
51:21
educators. New Orleans is is big, but it's
51:24
flexible. They're doing some great things.
51:27
And I I love my, my, my friends at New Orleans and and for us,
51:32
we we offer both on campus and online.
51:35
The majority of our students are online.
51:37
That's what they choose. We have students all over the
51:40
world. I I'm the director of the doctor
51:42
of ministry program. I have a student in Lebanon and
51:46
he's going to be on campus in June and he's going to be
51:49
preaching at my church. I invite him to stand in my
51:51
pulpit. He's going to be preaching
51:53
there. I have students in Africa, but
51:55
the majority of my students are in Georgia and Alabama, just
51:58
right around the South. And so that's the future that I
52:02
see. It's it's quality accredited
52:05
education that people can access online, just like you said.
52:10
Now if I can, if you let me say one more thing about what does
52:12
the future look like, then I'll I'll be quiet.
52:16
And then the one of the exciting things that I'm that I love
52:20
about the future of education is we're offering these little bite
52:24
sized accredited certificates that people can take.
52:30
So if you have no education at all, you can do an undergraduate
52:35
certificate, a certificate on the undergraduate level.
52:37
For example, if you take biblical studies, here's a guy,
52:41
he's in, he's in Mississippi Brett, he has no education, but
52:46
he wants to further himself. He can apply to Luther Rice, get
52:50
accepted and he can take a certificate in Biblical studies,
52:55
three classes, Old Testament survey.
52:59
So he gets the big picture of the Old Testament New Testament
53:02
survey. He gets the big picture of the
53:04
New Testament and hermeneutics and So what 3 great classes to
53:09
take. And once he takes those three
53:11
classes, he could actually come to Atlanta in May and graduate
53:15
with a cap and Gale, and that's how much we value these
53:19
accredited certificates. He can then be done and he can
53:22
hang his certificate on the wall in his office, or he can roll
53:26
those nine hours into a full undergraduate degree.
53:31
I think that's a wonderful thing for pastors to do or anybody on
53:35
staff. We also have those available on
53:37
the graduate level. I think this is the future.
53:40
I think this is where we're headed.
53:42
So here's the guy he's got, he's got an undergraduate degree,
53:45
maybe he did 20 years ago. He's got it from whatever Bible
53:48
college or whatever college period, whatever university he
53:52
got it from under. He can take things like Greek,
53:55
He can take 3 semesters of Greek, or he can take 3
53:58
semesters of Hebrew. Get a certificate.
54:01
Come to Atlanta graduate leadership.
54:04
We have a certificate in church revitalization.
54:07
How cool is that? So they can take these three
54:10
classes, get a certificate to hang on their wall frame, Come
54:14
to graduation and you don't have to obligate yourself for two
54:17
years, three years, four years, whatever a typical degree
54:20
program is, We have an apologetics, biblical
54:24
counselling you mentioned a moment ago.
54:27
Just all kinds of a pastoral ministry, theology.
54:32
These are all great ways for someone to either get started in
54:37
education or to to further their education and not obligate
54:41
themselves for a huge amount of money and a huge amount of time.
54:45
And so I I see that as the future online quality accredited
54:50
and offering these little bite sized courses where you can,
54:56
where you can excel and you can receive expertise in a niche
55:01
area. So Brett, before you ask your
55:04
last question and we'll wrap this up.
55:06
How you get that certificate in biblical counselling or
55:10
leadership or church revitalization, What, what does
55:13
that exactly look like or how does that, I guess how does that
55:18
you've got a master's degree, you've got a bachelor's degree,
55:21
like how does that actually would it be like a
55:26
specialization in church? I mean how how would that be
55:29
listed or someone convey that there?
55:31
Because you say a certificate, yeah, how?
55:34
How would you see even for let someone know what that looks
55:37
like? Yeah, I think the word
55:38
specialization is a good word. If you've got a let's say you've
55:43
got an undergraduate degree from wherever, whatever, Bible,
55:49
college, or college that you have.
55:50
So you you have ABA, you have a college degree, an undergraduate
55:54
degree, but you also have these nine hours in Greek.
55:58
So you can say, hey, I've got an undergraduate degree, but I also
56:00
have 9 hours on the masters level in Greek, or I've got 9
56:04
hours on the Masters level. I have AI have a certificate on
56:07
the Masters level in Leadership, so a specialization, if you
56:11
will, in Leadership. And then you could, like I say,
56:13
you can just let that stand alone.
56:15
Or you can roll that into a full Master's degree and, you know,
56:18
get either a a Master of Arts degree or a Master of Divinity
56:22
degree. You know, it's really cool
56:25
talking about this. I'm a full time pastor going
56:29
after, you know, my starting my masters and if it wasn't online
56:34
I wouldn't be able to do it. You know, I live 3 1/2 hours
56:38
away from the seminary and just with time and and money it just
56:42
would not be feasible. So the fact that Luther Rice
56:45
offers things like that is really, really cool.
56:50
Marcus, I got. I'm gonna hit you with one last
56:52
question. Not in our show notes.
56:54
So prepare yourself. There's a lot of churches today
57:00
without pastors in our county alone here in Mississippi, we
57:04
have 32 churches. Ten of them don't have pastors.
57:09
I've heard several, you know, higher ups in other schools and
57:13
seminaries say that we don't have enough people in the
57:17
schools to fill those positions in these churches like they're
57:22
we're going to have. We're fixing to have a lot of
57:23
pastors retire. A lot of pastors go out of the
57:26
ministry and we don't have enough people in this in in the
57:30
schools coming up in the ranks to fill these positions.
57:34
And my question to you is, is that your experience?
57:39
And if it is, what, if anything, can we do about it?
57:44
Definitely is my experience, my last years with the Mission
57:48
board serving as Director of Church Ministry Relations for
57:50
the Georgia Baptist Mission Board which is the Georgia
57:52
Baptist Convention we just did. You know rule of thumb was
57:58
always about 10%. So if there's 3600, just
58:02
Southern Baptist church, not counting the IFB churches, not
58:04
counting the non denominational or or whatever, just Southern
58:08
Baptist churches. Out of 3600 about 360 was the
58:12
rule of thumb would not have a pastor.
58:14
Now the last year that I was with the mission board was 2020.
58:17
So you remember what was going on in 2020 with COVID and
58:20
everything. The best estimate that we got
58:23
that year was about 400 churches in Georgia did not have a
58:27
pastor. Now, the churches that pay
58:31
$150,000 a year that have a big staff, you know, they're going
58:37
to find a pastor. Let's face it, they're going to
58:40
have all the applicants they need.
58:43
But it's the smaller churches, especially the by vocational
58:46
churches. We had like 14150 by vocational
58:49
churches in Georgia. That's really where there's a
58:51
need. A man who is called by God to be
58:56
a pastor does not really have a problem finding a place to
59:00
preach. And whether he's going to just
59:03
allow himself, his name to be put out as pulpit supply, as an
59:06
interim or as a a full time or as a a a pastor, a a senior
59:11
pastor, there's plenty of opportunities for a person.
59:15
There's always more need than there are people available.
59:19
That's just that's been my experience, that's that's
59:21
anecdotal. I've got no evidence to back
59:23
that up. It's just my experience, and it
59:27
is true that in most of the people in seminary aren't people
59:33
getting an education because they want to come out of
59:35
seminary and be a pastor. In our school at Luther Rise,
59:39
most of my students are already pastors.
59:41
They're not looking for a job. It's not like, hey, we're going
59:44
to graduate 100 people in May and there's a hundred guys
59:47
available. No, they're already pastors.
59:51
If I graduate a if we graduate 100 people in May, maybe four of
59:54
them are going to be looking for a pastorate somewhere and we
59:58
graduated 100 people. Some of those are ladies that
1:00:01
are like, you know, writers or Sunday school teachers or
1:00:03
missionaries or whatever. So it's not like all of these
1:00:08
schools after May and have all of these people out there
1:00:10
flooding the market trying to find a job.
1:00:12
That's just not the case of 3600.
1:00:16
And I I used to make this statement.
1:00:18
We have 3600 churches in Georgia, but we don't have 3600
1:00:22
pastors. We really don't.
1:00:24
And so if you're called by God. Equipped by the Holy Spirit,
1:00:29
then. And you're not preaching
1:00:31
anywhere. I I don't know what.
1:00:33
I don't know what the deal is, buddy.
1:00:35
I don't know what to tell you because there's plenty of places
1:00:37
to preach. There's plenty of churches that
1:00:39
are looking. It may not be a church that's
1:00:40
full time. It may be a church that pays,
1:00:43
you know, $600 a month. You may have to move somewhere.
1:00:48
But there are plenty of churches out there looking for pastors
1:00:52
that have God's touch on them. Yeah.
1:00:55
And you know, I think I think there's like 4600 churches in
1:00:59
North Carolina Baptist, in Southern Baptist.
1:01:01
And I think the last I heard was like 2025% or without pastors,
1:01:08
which is incredible. And then one of the things that
1:01:11
was even mentioned I think in our last convention was if
1:01:13
there's that many churches without pastors, why would I go
1:01:16
to the NC Baptist job board? There's not that many churches
1:01:19
listed. And then it it goes back to,
1:01:22
well, it's not our job to list churches that are without
1:01:25
pastors. It's that church and that
1:01:27
association to help facilitate those things.
1:01:30
And so you know, it's again, churches working in cooperation
1:01:34
to help the cause of Christ and ultimately for the gospel sake.
1:01:38
And so man, I love what you guys are doing.
1:01:40
I learned some stuff today even about Luther Rice and love that
1:01:43
certificate program. It piqued my interest a little
1:01:45
bit and hopefully you guys will listening.
1:01:49
If you have any questions, you can reach out to Doctor.
1:01:52
Marcus Merritt and I like using the doctor because it makes him
1:01:56
sound really, really official and so we're excited about
1:02:00
having about him coming on here today and any closing thoughts,
1:02:04
Brett or Marcus before we shut the showdown?
1:02:07
I had some closing thoughts and you didn't ask me what I'm
1:02:10
really excited about. I'm really excited about us
1:02:12
being able to go back to Israel very soon.
1:02:15
Amen. And I know this is not about
1:02:17
Israel, but I just. Shabbat Shalom.
1:02:19
Yes. And we're we're looking, we're,
1:02:24
we're going to have you back soon.
1:02:26
We're going to have you back soon after the summer break to
1:02:29
talk about Israel. And man, we could, oh, we could
1:02:32
make a three hour episode. I love talking about Israel.
1:02:36
Yes, love it. But thank you so much for being
1:02:40
with us today. I have learned.
1:02:42
I've learned a lot too. I've reflected on a lot and I I,
1:02:46
you know, this is going to be a good resource, good content for
1:02:49
somebody curious about this, who's looking into further their
1:02:53
education, who's got questions about it, Really, really good
1:02:57
stuff. So I think that just about
1:02:59
covers it. James.
1:03:00
Love it. Well, thank you Marcus again for
1:03:02
coming on and until next time to God.
1:03:05
Not the pastor. Be the glory found.
1:03:08
My new name. Found that good grace.
1:03:13
Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face.
1:03:17
When I found my beginning. Has no ending.
1:03:19
Found that second chance. Found my best friend.
1:03:22
Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness.
1:03:40
Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast.
1:03:43
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1:03:46
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