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Ep2 Why are Feelings Important with Tim Long · Mental Health Matters for Christians

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It's this snowy, dreary day, and I looked around at this what you
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know, this dreary landscape and realized it matched exactly what
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I was feeling. And then I realized I hadn't had
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a single identifiable emotion in about four days.
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And yeah, at that point I knew I was OK.
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I'm in trouble. Hey everyone, I'm Christine
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Sneeringer and I'm your host of the Mental Health Matters for
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Christians podcast. Today is an episode where I sit
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down in Los Angeles with my Co host Tim Long.
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He's a Christian therapist there.
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Tim's been a long time friend, he's a ministry colleague and
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he's been a confidant for over 2 decades.
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So a couple years ago we discovered that we both had a
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desire to start a podcast. So we said, wouldn't it be nice
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if we could do something together?
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We both have the same heart to want to help people.
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We have a passion for mental health.
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Tim is a therapist. I've been a pastoral caregiver
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for a Christian ministry called Worthy Creations for many years.
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So in these episodes that I'll be doing with Tim, we will
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unpack and kick around a topic related to mental health.
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We'll be doing these intermittently in between my
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interviews with people who have walked through hardship, loss,
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and trauma. As always, my goal is to inspire
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people to fill them with hope and give them practical insights
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that they can so they can get unstuck and experience more of
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the freedom that Jesus promises his followers.
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So I'm delighted to share with you my very first episode with
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my Co host Tim Long. We are talking about why are
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feelings important? Did I say that right or is it
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our feelings? Yeah.
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Why are feelings? Why are they important?
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So that already assumes they're important.
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I think we all know feelings are important.
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I disagree. Yeah.
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There we go. That was, that was.
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Where we're not even 30 seconds in and.
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We're we're like, all right, this is great.
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This is juicy. You said everybody knows
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feelings are. Important.
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Everybody knows. What are you talking about?
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Yeah, come on now. Look at any one year old 2 year
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old kid. Do they think their feelings are
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important? I don't think they're thinking
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about their feelings. Yeah, because.
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Because why? Because they're in their
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feelings. Like they're all feelings.
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Feeling their feelings. Yes, and and expressing them
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just being right. So does a 2 year old believe
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that their feelings are important?
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OK, probably. OK, and why?
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Why does a 2 year old think their feelings are important?
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I don't think the two year old is again thinking about their
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feelings right. So, but they think whatever's
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happening is very important and they're.
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Reacting to it exactly like feelings are how we perceive the
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world, how what we actually what's most connected to our
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knower. Now, I don't think feelings are
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the same thing, say. The word knower again, Yeah.
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Like our knower, yeah, I'm putting yeah, right here, right
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in that, right in the heart. Right in the OK, so it's your,
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would it be like your gut? Yeah, like what?
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You know, down to the core of your being is different from
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what you're feeling, but is very closely related to that.
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And it's, you know, our feelings are how we perceive the world
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and what shapes things and what gets down to like our core, what
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we know. Here's here's my argument.
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I think we're all born and, and I think there's good, you know,
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like psychological development behind this, Like we're all born
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knowing our feelings are important, assuming our feelings
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are important. OK, maybe assuming yes.
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OK, got. It OK, you're right.
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OK, I'll. Just look at that, that they're
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already like all. Right, all right, so.
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We assume we don't necessarily know our feelings are important,
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right? OK.
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We assume our feelings are important when we come in, and
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then we need the world to kind of bash out of us that our
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feelings are important. Wait, bash that out of us.
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Well, that's, I think so much of the time that's what happens.
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Yeah, life or parents who? Oh, like you cry.
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I'll give you something to cry about.
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Don't cry or I'll give you something to cry about.
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And what are the other things we heard growing up?
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For me, it wasn't so much, you know, you cry or I'll give you
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something to cry about. For me it was, and it took me
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the longest time to realize this.
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Like when I was growing up, my parents, I think, you know,
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overall they were calm. They provided things, they were
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great education. They're great in a lot of ways,
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great conversationalists. There was no like question that
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was off the table. But they never use feeling
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words. But see, that's, I think that's
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a product of the era we come like, you know what I mean?
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Because now we later we got people start talking about
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feelings like, you know, I'm thinking of my mentor in
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ministry, Sai Rogers, who talked about when on his journey of,
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you know, is a recovery journey of sexual brokenness that he
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said, you know, when I started my journey, this was before, you
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know, back then issues were magazines, you know what I mean?
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Like there wasn't a we didn't talk about issues, right.
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Yeah. Like you?
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You don't. You don't have problems related
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to emotions. No.
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Or mental health or. Anything that doesn't, yeah,
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when growing up at all, like, and maybe that's why I have
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mental health problems. Yes, exactly.
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Exactly. I just figured that out.
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My stars. Yeah, and that's the thing, like
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my parents, like I said, they never used feeling words with
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regard to themselves. But the feelings came out, you
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know, in other ways. You know, they argued a lot,
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they fought a lot. I, I never remember them being a
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piece. You know, there were other
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issues that kind of went on. I don't want to spend this whole
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time bash. My parents also when you said
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they used they never used feeling words.
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With regard to themselves. But they never said things like,
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you know, that makes me sad or that makes me angry.
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Everything was about data. And so when I, you know, like.
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Very detached. Very, yes.
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Very detached, very analytical, very logical.
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And so that's just, that's what I grew up in.
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And so that just it very, I just remember from a very young age
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beginning to feel like what I felt didn't matter.
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OK, OK, so you started so that you learned to disregard your
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feelings. But I think we came at it like
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we came at that disregard for our feelings from very different
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angles. Sure.
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Like mine was just kind of that subtle over a long period of
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time. We're never going to talk to you
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about your feelings. We're not going to pay attention
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to them. We're not going to tune to them.
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It's just, and again, not conscious or intentional.
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They just, yeah, that was that was just how they operated.
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That's how they assumed good operation is.
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And and they were very successful at it.
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You know, like my my dad was a doctor, my mom was a nurse.
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They were medical missionaries for years like that.
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They were rewarded for having that approach to life.
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And so they took it and it seemed right to them.
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And so, and without even thinking about it, again, I
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don't think it was intentional. They were trying to, you know,
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train feelings out of me. But that's that's kind of what
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happened. And then you had to come to a
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place where you obviously came to a place where you're like,
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feelings are important. Yeah, like I said, they were
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very successful. I was very successful.
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I went through like junior high and high school being top of my
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class 4 point O student valedictorian, National Merit
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scholar, first trombone player. And I went off to college and I
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also I was really interested in doctrine and theology and the
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Bible and I went off to college. I had all of my doctrinalized
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dotted, all my doctrinal TS crossed.
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I, you know, had a, you know, a daily Bible reading routine.
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I was going through my do. You remember these?
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Read 1 year Bible yeah yeah those were awesome yeah and and
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so I had my one year Bible and I was a hopeless porn addict I.
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Was going to say you must have been super uptight because
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everything was perfect. Like super structured and.
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Perfect. I'm still, I'm still uptight.
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So kind of OCD then? No, not OCD, just really
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anxious. So you had all that going on,
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but you're a hopeless porn addict because was that because
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like that you escaped from having to be perfect, kind of.
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That's a great question. I, I feel like I needed to be
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perfect. No, I mean at the time I wasn't
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justifying subconsciously I thought that I needed to be
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perfect again. I had all my doctrinalized
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dotted and my all my doctrinal TS crossed.
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So I know you know we're not saved by works.
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So you you had a lot of head knowledge of God and theology.
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Yeah, absolutely you. Know, but in practice you're
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you're acting out in ways you know is not godly.
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Yes, exactly. And I'm in this cycle and this
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is something I had to actually learn.
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I, I got a very like kind of corrupted relationship with
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God's word because what would happen?
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I, I remember this is like I'd go and I'd read my one year
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Bible, right. My 3 chapters a day.
9:05
Well, yeah, you can do that. Or we can go, this is kind of,
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we all are looking for approval and that all gets distorted.
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And I get it. Like, yeah, all right.
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I was reading my one. Year Bible religiously and every
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day I would read that thing and I would end up feeling horrible
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about myself every day. From reading it, yeah.
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Why? Because I'm reading this Bible
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and and knowing, wow, I don't measure up to that.
9:30
Wow. Yeah, I don't measure up to
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that. Wow.
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Yeah. And it just it like God's word
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would just sweep over me in a big shame.
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Wow, Big yeah. Big shame, pancake.
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No kidding. Slap you in the face.
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A shame, Pancake. OK.
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And so then then I would feel terrible about myself.
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And then, you know, after a little bit of feeling that way,
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you know, porn starts to become really interesting.
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Because it's a a way, a comfort. It absolutely, yeah.
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It's a place of comfort. It's also just overall a great
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place for affirmation. OK, I don't know why but tell.
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Me. OK.
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Yeah. Yeah, it's because you're a
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woman, OK? Well, that's going to come up
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eventually. So eventually here we are.
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OK. And by the way, I'm clear on
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that now, but we'll talk about that later.
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But I am a woman. I'm I'm OK with it.
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It wasn't for for a long time. I think it's great that you're a
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woman. You're Well, yeah, I realized
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that God made me a woman. I was like, OK, I'm just going
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to be that then. So because I'm a woman, I don't
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understand why porn gives you affirmation.
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Well, yeah, because there's something that a man gets in,
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like the porn or the sexual fantasy is like this admiration,
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like you come in feeling like crap and in the fantasy you can
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do no wrong, like everything you do, she is pleased by.
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OK, because it's all in your mind.
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It's all in your mind, OK? My friend Joey references this.
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Joey, that's. Joey Nicolosi, Yeah, he's a
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therapist friend, He's a psychologist.
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He talks about there's a study done on porn viewing where they
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would look at they would track where the eyes were looking in
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the porn. Now first of all, the ethics of
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this study, like doesn't seem like the best thing to be.
11:08
I'm assuming it's all adults they're having.
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Look at this porn. OK.
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Yeah, sure. But interesting data point that
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comes out of this right is like as men are viewing porn and as
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women are viewing porn, right, men as they're viewing porn,
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guess where they're looking in the porn?
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At the man performing a sexual act, Maybe at his genitals, I
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don't know. Wrong.
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Wrong. OK, well, where?
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OK, OK, hold on. I have another guess.
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Can I guess 2? Do I get?
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Two. Yeah, you can get 2.
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My second guess, because of what you just said about affirmation
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and you're a fantasy about you can do no wrong, is looking at
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the woman's reaction to what's happening.
11:46
You're getting a lot closer. OK.
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The woman's eyes. Oh.
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Yeah, because that's, again, that's directly connected to
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what you're saying is like you look into the eyes, that's where
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you assess how is she feeling, right.
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Now. Oh, interesting.
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Isn't that crazy? Yeah, and then you're getting
12:00
affirmed by looking at the eyes of this woman that you're
12:03
pretending in your mind that you're the one in the movie.
12:06
Yes. OK, got it.
12:07
OK. Yeah, and guess.
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Guess where women are looking when they're looking at porn.
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Well, I was just going to say the men's eyes, but I Yeah, yes,
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no, no. That's you're you're.
12:19
You're correct to question that. Yeah, I don't know.
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I mean I, I mean I could guess, but go ahead, tell me.
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The setting. The setting, the setting like oh
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the the bedspread and the. Curtains, the curtains and well,
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and what she's looking at is like is, is he making her safe?
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Oh, because. That's the that's the woman's.
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Fantasy. Oh, that would be my fantasy is
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to be safe. Not in that context, but just in
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general. You know what I mean?
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Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's huge.
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Yeah, I would go through this cycle every day where I would.
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And this is so it's kind of sad now kind of thinking back on it
12:57
because this is the mid 90s, right?
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Like all of the web browsing was like text based.
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Like there's no pictures actually on the web pages.
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You're like doing searches and doing all this thing.
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I I had to do a lot of work. To find pictures.
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To find pictures and. Videos.
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Oh, so it wasn't like it is now. OK.
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Did you not have magazines at that time?
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Because I grew up in there were magazines, my dad.
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But thank you. Thank you.
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Yeah, there were magazines around, but I was a good
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evangelical. Christian so you're not going to
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go buy a Christian porn. I mean a Christian porn letter.
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Sorry, you're not going to Christian bookstore and ask for
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the porn section. No, I was a that was a misspeak.
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So so you're not looking at you're not going into the store
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like the seven. Sorry, not.
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Going into. The not going to seven letter
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and to get the porn no yeah there should not be a Christian
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porn store so if you're out there it should just you guys
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you need to shut it down you. Know now.
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Yes, but you're not. Yeah, it's OK.
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Yeah, it's awesome. It's real life here.
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But now, now my mind's trying to track down what would Christian
14:00
porn be. I'm sure.
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You know what? There's somebody's thought.
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Well, yeah, we're not. Going we're not going to rabbit
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trail, but because we want to make sure we're talking about
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feelings and why are feelings important?
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But but you're such a Christian, good Christian.
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You're not going to go looking for porn in a because you don't
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want to be seen buying it. Yeah, exactly.
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You know, shame and pride always go together when when you're
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shoved down in shame all day long, every day, like it's, it's
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horrible, it's miserable. And so you're always looking for
14:29
ways in which to kind of jolt out of that.
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And so any kind of pride, any kind of ego you can tune into.
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And again, it's not a conscious thing, but that's what you're
14:38
going to gravitate toward. And so in my, you know, porn
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craze, like, you know, mind, like what I would, you know,
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part of how I would justify it or, or feel, OK, it's like,
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well, I'm never spending money on porn.
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OK hold on, so I'm if I don't spend money on porn.
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Then you know, at least I'm not supporting.
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It yeah, OK, I'm not supporting the industry by paying for it,
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but if I can I can find all the free free porn, then I could
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feel better that somehow morally superior in my porn addiction.
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So ridiculous. You know what?
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It's amazing how we justify things.
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So no, I don't think I haven't justified things.
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Yeah, yeah. But we're talking about you now.
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So thank you. Thank you.
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Thank you for keeping that that spotlight right right here and.
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You said I'm getting pushed down in shame or something like that.
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Is that, but it's you doing it to you.
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Oh yeah. It's no who?
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Who else is doing it to you? Well, I think the world, the
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flesh and the devil. OK.
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Nope. That's good.
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We need to bring him in at some point.
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Yeah, he's real. He's real.
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Most of my spiritual, deeply spiritual, like there is a
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spiritual reality. Experiences have had to do with
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like porn or, or sexual addiction like I really do, and,
15:46
and sexuality. I just think it's something that
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the enemy, you know, spiritual beings like they, they've made a
15:53
big deal out of that. The last couple 100 years and
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it's, it's so much worse right now.
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I mean, the average age a child is exposed to pornography is
16:01
about 8 years old at this point. And I think it's getting younger
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because we make mistakes by giving kids these, you know, the
16:08
smartphone and and access to the Internet.
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Can we get back to feelings, though?
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Because I want to, like, hear more about this journey.
16:15
And how did you get to the place where your feelings were
16:18
important? Of course, we, I assume you're
16:20
not addicted to porn anymore either because you're a
16:23
therapist. You're a Christian therapist
16:24
helping people. And in fact, you help people
16:26
with porn addiction. Yeah.
16:28
So. Yeah.
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I would be lying to say that it's never a temptation.
16:34
Sure. OK, it's a temptation.
16:36
And when I talk to my clients about this, I say it's, you
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know, it's the difference between something following you
16:40
around every day and like, tapping on your shoulder, just
16:43
constantly bugging you. And off there on the horizon.
16:47
Yeah, I could go there if I want to, but do I really want to go
16:50
there? That kind of a thing?
16:52
That's that's that's how I would describe it.
16:53
Now is like off there on the horizon.
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And whenever it starts to creep in on me, now I know what to do.
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I know what I need to do to begin to yeah to begin to deal.
17:04
With and by the way, that one you just described, it just took
17:07
me straight to a scene in a movie.
17:08
See if you remember this one. A beautiful mind.
17:11
OK. Yeah, yeah.
17:12
Is that Russell Crowe OK And was it schizophrenia?
17:15
He was playing a man with schizophrenia.
17:16
And at the end of the movie, it's a great movie.
17:18
He's it's like he, he always had this person that he was, you
17:22
know, would. Yeah, his hallucinations, he
17:25
would see people in the room with him.
17:26
There were like these characters, yes, that would
17:29
following him around. And he was tormented by that.
17:31
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And by the end of the movie,
17:34
though, they weren't like, right there, it was like in the
17:37
distance. And he was able to choose out of
17:39
engaging in that hallucination. It was a great line, too.
17:44
I can't remember the line that he uses about, you know, when he
17:46
sees that person. That's fictitious, you know.
17:49
But anyway. But yeah, so you remind me of
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that line because it's like we have the power to say I'm not
17:54
indulging in that. Like, kind of like, it's almost
17:57
like to like, just Satan, like, flick you off of me, you know,
18:00
like, I'm not nice try. But you know, I'm moving on that
18:04
I don't want that anymore in my life, life.
18:06
And I've and you have to get the guardrails in and it takes a
18:09
while to get there to where it's like not in your face as a
18:13
temptation or always tapping you on the shoulder.
18:16
But I do want to get back to the feelings thing like part.
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Actually, I remember the moment where I woke up to the issue
18:24
that I was having. The porn addiction.
18:27
Yeah, the porn addiction is again, I like I said, I grew up
18:31
in this family that never valued emotions, never talked about
18:34
emotions. Everything was logical,
18:36
analytical, all that kind of thing.
18:38
And I woke up one day and I was it was Wheaton College, which is
18:44
outside Chicago. It's really cold.
18:45
So were you a student there? Yeah, I was a student there.
18:47
Undergrad. OK, Yeah, undergrad student
18:49
there. And I'm walking across campus.
18:52
It's this snowy, dreary day. And I looked around at this
18:58
what, you know, this dreary landscape and realized it
19:01
matched exactly what I was feeling.
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And then I realized I hadn't had a single identifiable emotion in
19:08
about four days. And I was like, that's not
19:12
right. Like you don't know what you're
19:14
feeling. Yeah, yeah, I'm just completely
19:17
checked out, completely zoned out.
19:21
And yeah, at that point I knew I was OK.
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I'm in trouble. Just from knowing, I haven't had
19:25
a feeling that I could name in four days.
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You're like, oh, feelings are important because I don't know,
19:29
I would have got there. No, I didn't.
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Yeah, I didn't. I definitely didn't think at
19:32
that moment. Feelings are important.
19:35
And I probably and I still at that moment wouldn't have
19:38
stressed or learned. It took a long time for me to
19:41
get to the place where I started prioritizing my feelings and and
19:45
like looking at them and. OK, I want to hear about
19:49
prioritizing my feelings because let me tell you about my faith
19:52
journey. You know, it's just, I'm not
19:54
going to go way into it, but I bring it because my in my faith
19:57
journey, it's like I was taught like feelings aren't important.
20:00
In fact, they use a phrase like, oh, you're fleshing out.
20:03
Oh, wow, yes, you're in the flesh.
20:06
Yeah, like you're in the flesh. Like you're obviously not godly,
20:10
you know, because in Romans 8, there's some language in there
20:12
that talks about the spirit and the flesh.
20:15
So if you're in your. Feelings.
20:17
Oh well, of course you are. And I know I I memorize like a
20:20
verse and you'll do whole chapters and so, but that's.
20:23
Actually related to the story I was just talking.
20:25
About Oh, tell me. Well, OK, there's so much.
20:27
There's so much. Yes, but in your faith journey,
20:30
what you learned early on as a Christian is don't get caught up
20:34
in your feelings. Don't correct.
20:35
Yeah, but I would. I probably already learned it in
20:37
my family first, you know, because there was no safe place
20:41
for me. So.
20:42
So I learned it as a child, and then my Christianity reinforced
20:46
it. That's so crazy.
20:50
Something that just clicked for me, Christine, that has never
20:52
clicked for me before with us like.
20:55
You meaning in our friendship. Yeah, in our friendship and just
20:57
what I know of you because Christine and I, we've known
21:00
each other for 20 years now. We.
21:01
Figured out 20. 20. Five.
21:03
What year were you at in covenant at seminary?
21:05
Yeah, I was there like 2000, 2001.
21:08
I think you came and visited 2002.
21:10
So that would have been when I met you.
21:12
Yeah. And so from 2002 on.
21:13
So that's 23 years. That's a long time.
21:16
It's. Yeah, it's a good long time.
21:17
Yep. Something that just has never
21:19
clicked for me before is there's something you like The enemy
21:25
again, the world, the flesh. The devil knew exactly where to
21:28
target each of us. OK.
21:30
Like you were just just when you said that right now was just
21:33
really profound. Like the I, you know, what I
21:36
learned in my home is I am never safe.
21:39
Yeah. And that is like, core to who
21:42
you are as a woman. Like, I think that's core to
21:45
what women want. Safety.
21:47
Yeah, safety. And not just for themselves, but
21:49
like for their family, for everyone they love.
21:52
You know, there's that protective nurturing, like
21:55
really making sure the people that are most important to you
21:58
are taken care of. Yeah.
22:00
Like our, one of our greatest needs is security.
22:02
Absolute yes. Yeah.
22:03
Absolutely. So you're home like, like got
22:07
that targeted, like just went right after that.
22:10
Whereas in my home, what got targeted is I don't matter.
22:16
Like from a couple of different angles, like what I want, what I
22:19
need doesn't matter and what I do doesn't matter.
22:23
Because again, if you live in a home where there's just not
22:27
emotions or, or the emotions are all expressed in a very reactive
22:32
way, it's never reflected on. People don't talk about them,
22:35
they don't connect on them. Then that's just kind of the,
22:39
the, the thing, what you learn, what you begin to experience in
22:42
that as well. I guess I don't matter.
22:45
And so that's what targeted my heart.
22:47
And I mean, set me up for, I would say I, I don't think I
22:50
mattered either, you know for sure.
22:52
So yeah, so you've got safety. These things are connected.
22:54
And I don't matter it safety and security.
22:57
Diagram overlap. Insignificance, you know?
23:00
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
23:02
I think it's not helpful when the church reinforces your your
23:05
feelings don't matter. Sadly, yes, that is that is
23:08
frequently. That's a whole nother level and
23:11
layer that you got to work through and undo to realize no,
23:14
they do matter. Yeah, absolutely right.
23:17
You said you started this show with because I said, why are
23:21
feelings important? Or was the question our feelings
23:23
important? You said everybody knows that.
23:25
Everybody was like, I don't think so.
23:27
It took me a long time, years to figure out that.
23:30
When I, yeah, when I say everybody knows they're
23:33
important, I mean at a God level, like we all know this
23:37
kind of like we all know sex is important.
23:40
OK, I guess. You know, because even though
23:43
most of us try, like a lot of us try to spend our time not
23:46
thinking about sex, OK? They think about it, right?
23:49
Yeah, exactly. It's like, well, it's if I said
23:51
don't, If I said you don't think about a pink elephant, what
23:53
happens? Yeah, you think about a pink
23:54
elephant, right? But but it's also because it's
23:57
something that's so core. Primal.
23:59
Yeah, primal. Like it's it's literally wired
24:02
into our bodies. Sure, like.
24:04
This is And so are our emotions or our feelings.
24:07
Yeah. So that's the thing.
24:08
You've got this drive, you know that at the that's fundamental
24:12
to who you are that you live out of for the first few years of
24:16
your life, OK. You're just living in your
24:19
feelings, you know, and reacting out of your feelings.
24:23
Like if that's that's where you're at, like, you know, at
24:27
some gut primal level, your feelings are important.
24:33
I guess I don't know, I mean, that's interesting because I
24:36
think it took me spent a lot of money in therapy to figure out
24:42
they were important. And I don't even know if I
24:46
thought that that I was learning that, you know, it's one of
24:48
those. It was like a byproduct of just
24:50
of just working through stuff, you know, And what what?
24:54
So what would you say to people who are like tracking in terms
24:59
of saying like, OK, feelings are important.
25:01
Now what? What do I do with that
25:03
information that the feelings are important?
25:05
Yeah. And the question was why are
25:08
they important? I want to, and this is such a
25:11
terrible therapist thing to do. Like I want to push back on the
25:14
question and on the premise because it's like, well, how do
25:18
I get feelings to be now what, what do I do?
25:21
And kind of what I want to say is at, well, you're wired to
25:24
feel things. So feel your feelings.
25:26
Feel your feelings. Express your feelings.
25:29
Let's talk about why you're What's blocking you from that?
25:34
When you say feel your feelings, I go straight to, for example,
25:36
anger. That was my go to sure, because
25:39
it was never safe to be sad yes, so an angle's a much more
25:42
powerful emotion, but then I think of Jesus right and we got
25:44
angry the whole scripture and you know it be angry and do not
25:47
sin right, So you can be angry, but you know, and that's hard to
25:51
do. It is is to.
25:52
Be angry and not sin. Right, Yeah, I I feel like you
25:56
saying feel your feelings is almost like giving permission,
25:59
people permission. But then I think, oh, that's
26:01
kind of dangerous. Like go feel your.
26:03
Feelings. Exactly.
26:03
Yeah, it's it's incredibly dangerous.
26:06
Well, that's not helpful and and you're laughing.
26:11
Tell me why you're laughing. Because that it's just such.
26:15
I love your response. It's like a that's the truth.
26:17
Yeah. Yeah, it's a.
26:18
Catch 22. You know what I mean?
26:20
Feel your feelings, don't sin. Yeah, you're right.
26:24
You're absolutely. Right, because our feelings are
26:25
powerful and so if I feel them like for me like yours was porn
26:29
right now mine has been food like and I would just eat my
26:33
feelings. I don't want to feel them.
26:34
I just want to eat them. And food is powerful.
26:36
Hunger is powerful. Our need for food is powerful.
26:38
Yeah, but I wasn't even hungry. I just want to eat.
26:40
Yes. You know what I mean?
26:41
So it's like, watch what you eat.
26:43
OK, great. But there's all this tempting
26:46
food in the world and I'm feeling these really strong
26:48
feelings and I really need to eat.
26:50
Yeah, yeah, so that I don't have to feel these really strong
26:53
feelings. Yes.
26:54
So I remember my therapist telling me, wait, she told me to
26:57
watch this movie Inside Out. Okay, such a good movie.
27:00
I was so mad. I watched this movie.
27:03
I come back into therapy, I go, what is the point of that stupid
27:06
movie? I said I hate that movie.
27:08
I said I am with because it's OK.
27:11
The movie is like these five feelings, right?
27:13
And there's this character named Joy, because they're the
27:16
feeling. Everybody likes joy.
27:18
Yeah. And I was like, so I go back
27:19
into therapy. I go, what?
27:21
Like I was mad she wanted me to watch the movie.
27:23
And I said, I said because in the movie, Joy is trying to
27:27
exterminate Sadness. And I was like, yes, that's
27:30
exactly what we need to do. So I go, I go, what's the point?
27:34
That stupid movie is it that we need sadness because I hate
27:38
sadness. I'm with Joy.
27:39
We need to get rid of sadness because that's what she tried to
27:41
do. The whole movie is get rid of
27:42
sadness. So the friend that I borrowed
27:44
the movie from was DVD. I went to give it back to her
27:47
and I'm like, here you go like, here's your stupid movie back,
27:50
right? And I go hate this movie.
27:52
She's like, you hate it. And she had like two kids and
27:56
1/3 she had three, but one of them was adopted.
27:59
And your adopted child had reactive attachment disorder,
28:03
which you probably know what that is.
28:05
So reactive attachment disorder is when kids have like
28:08
significant trauma and abandonment when they're little.
28:12
And they don't bond. And they, yeah, they, they have
28:14
problems with bonding. And so they either like anybody
28:18
they come across, they they glom onto immediately and they get
28:22
overly close or they put lots of distance and never.
28:26
Never And I think he was doing that one.
28:28
So then I said to her, yeah, I hate this stupid movie.
28:32
She's and she's so funny. She's like, you hate it.
28:34
I'm like, yeah, it's horrible. I hate sadness.
28:37
You hate sadness. And I was like.
28:40
She's therapizing you. And I go, she goes.
28:43
What do you do with those big feelings?
28:45
I go, I don't know, I hate them, you know?
28:47
And she's like, and she just started talking about her son
28:50
and she's like, well, I have to help him.
28:51
And I think the phrase that you therapists use, OK, is organize
28:55
his feelings and she'll say to him, oh, are you feeling sad
28:59
because he doesn't know what to do with his sadness?
29:02
Yeah, she was in the habit because she had this son that
29:05
she had to be constantly like reflecting him, helping him
29:09
organize it. Yes, that's what she started.
29:11
Doing with you so she's trying to help him I guess name that
29:14
feeling absolutely because he would react in anger right he'd
29:18
react in anger when he's feeling sad and that's where I would go
29:23
to I wouldn't go to sadness I skipped right over that straight
29:25
to anger because. Yeah, sadness isn't safe.
29:28
Yeah, that's what if you're not because you have to be safe to
29:32
be sad. So that's why I was like.
29:34
And so then she after she talked to me like that, I was like, OK,
29:37
maybe I should watch this movie again.
29:38
Let me give it another shot. I I did.
29:40
I've watched it like 3 or 4 times.
29:41
Now did, did, did. Your, I mean, I understand,
29:44
like, OK, we need sadness. I mean, I don't love sadness,
29:47
but I was like, you know what I mean?
29:49
It's kind of like, I guess it's part of the whole, it is part of
29:52
the spectrum of feelings. It is.
29:54
And so I have learned that, you know, going straight to anger
29:57
doesn't serve me. Yeah, well, do you remember like
30:00
the moment in the movie where Joy figures out that Sadness is
30:03
important do. You remember, I remember well, I
30:08
remember the main character, which is this little girl who
30:10
moved away from her friends. And she felt like, you know, she
30:15
was supposed to act like everything's fine, but she was
30:16
super sad about being away from her friends.
30:18
And she thought for the sake of her parents, she had to act like
30:21
everything was great. And so someone like, she's
30:24
putting on a show instead of allowing herself to feel sad.
30:28
Yes. And Joy is that's reflected
30:31
internally by Joy, like you were saying, always trying to
30:34
exterminate, always trying to sideline sadness, right?
30:37
Like in inside of Riley's the the little girl you were talking
30:40
about, Joy and Sadness are, you know, two of the five.
30:45
Primary, yeah. 55 primary feelings that are in there and
30:49
Joy's always trying to sideline. Sadness 100%.
30:52
Yep. And then she at the lowest point
30:56
in the movie, she comes across this memory and it's one of
31:00
Riley's memories that's. Just playing hockey, yes.
31:03
OK. Yeah, and it's it's this it I'm
31:07
trying to remember. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.
31:11
Riley loses a. Game.
31:14
And it's her saddest memory. And so clearly, like, like it's
31:18
the biggest game of the year and and it's her saddest memory.
31:21
And so of course, Joy's looking at this thing, thinking, you
31:24
know, what is the point of this? And then as she's watching the
31:26
movie, as Riley gets really sad, her parents notice and they come
31:33
over and they sit next to her. That's attunement.
31:36
Yes, that's right. That's what, yeah.
31:38
That's what that's what you do as a therapist and that's what
31:41
parents need to do is be attuned to their children's emotions.
31:45
And that's how we let the kids know your feelings are
31:48
important. Yes.
31:48
And neither one of us had that. That's why we're screwed up.
31:51
Yeah, correct. Well.
31:55
I'm putting all this together right now.
31:57
Good. This is real time.
31:58
Yeah, absolutely. It's awesome, yes.
32:00
And so as Joy sits there watching the movie, you know, of
32:04
the, of the memory. Yeah, Like her, You know,
32:07
Riley's sad. Her parents come over, they join
32:09
her. Like it.
32:11
You see it in the colors because everything sad is blue.
32:14
Everything Joy is yellow. And the color of the memory
32:17
begins to shift. And it shifts from, from blue
32:20
over into yellow into afterwards, they're having a
32:23
party. And then it clicks for Joy of
32:25
like, holy cow, this is really like Sadness leads back into
32:30
Joy. Because why?
32:33
Because sadness is how we is what causes us, moves us,
32:39
motivates us. That's why emotion, right?
32:41
It motivates us. It motivates us to send out
32:44
signals to people that we need. Connections.
32:46
Oh OK, hold on. So the joy comes from the
32:49
connection that happens because I'm sad, Yes.
32:52
Where were you when I was watching this movie like 8 years
32:55
ago like this? Like you're putting all the dots
32:59
together for me now. This is, this is really helpful
33:01
for me, by the way. Yeah.
33:02
And Pixar we we expect our. Bumpbacks.
33:04
I know, right? Yeah.
33:05
For for promoting the movie, Yeah.
33:07
No, Yeah. I didn't think about that.
33:09
So it's because in my sadness, when I have a a connection, yes.
33:15
Then I don't understand. I then I moved to it's because
33:21
it helps me move through my sadness.
33:23
I don't stay stuck in my sadness.
33:24
So I I think we don't want to overcomplicate it.
33:27
OK, good. They're probably trying to.
33:29
Yeah, well, we all do. Yeah.
33:31
The wisest man in history. Jesus said it.
33:35
And this is one of my life verses.
33:36
Oh, come on. Yeah, blessed are those who
33:38
mourn, for they shall be. Comforted.
33:40
Come on. Yeah.
33:42
Tell us. Have church.
33:43
Yeah, that's right. It's church everywhere.
33:45
Yeah. Yeah.
33:46
Where two or three are gathered. Yeah.
33:48
Anyway. But yeah.
33:49
So, yeah, blessed are those who mourn for they should be
33:51
comforted. That's that.
33:53
That's Jesus giving us the gospel for our emotions right
33:56
there. Because yeah, I love, I love.
34:00
This is my favorite passage in the Bible is that is the
34:03
Beatitudes. That's the second Beatitudes.
34:05
There are 8, No, nine. Well, it's, it's it's confusing,
34:10
OK, but it's the only poetry we know of that Jesus ever wrote,
34:14
right? You know, there's two versions
34:16
of it. There's one in Matthew 5.
34:17
There's one in Luke. Here's the Bible scholar coming
34:20
out. I think it's Luke 6.
34:21
We're going to get comments on that.
34:23
But anyway, the but yeah, two versions of it and it's
34:26
interesting to see the contrast between the versions.
34:28
The one that I always go back to is Matthew 5.
34:31
And yeah, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the
34:33
Kingdom of hell. That's number one.
34:36
That's the gospel in one verse. You know, like you have to
34:40
recognize your spiritual poverty.
34:42
Come on. Before you can enter the Kingdom
34:45
of heaven. And that's, you know, and once
34:47
you do that, yeah #2 this is, you know, feelings are
34:51
important. Jesus.
34:52
Made them important. OK, blessed are those who mourn,
34:55
for they shall be comforted. So you so you're saying the
34:59
order of what Jesus said is significant?
35:01
Absolutely. Oh.
35:03
Yeah, yeah. If you look at the trajectory of
35:06
yeah, I've studied this passage a lot, and you look at the
35:10
trajectory of the beatitudes, it's from the inside out.
35:15
It's starting from this attitude of poverty.
35:18
And I have nothing. And so God brings me everything.
35:22
And then I begin to take a look out at the world and I start to
35:25
feel sad. And then I need his comfort.
35:28
He comes and then once he gives me comfort, that gives me peace
35:32
of heart. It gives me a settledness in my
35:34
heart, a meekness that that term there I've heard said before
35:38
that term, meekness means like teachable, blessed are the meek,
35:41
for they shall inherit the earth.
35:44
And then as I begin to have that peace and heart, then I begin to
35:47
be hungry and thirsty for righteousness.
35:50
And that's a turning point. It's like I'm hungry and thirsty
35:53
for righteousness, for I shall be filled.
35:55
The very next one is blessed are the merciful, for they shall
35:58
receive mercy. And then now I'm starting to
36:02
move out in the world. I'm starting to do little acts.
36:04
And then, ah, blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall
36:08
see God. That's an interesting one
36:11
because it's that sense of as you begin to move out in the
36:13
world and you start to practice your righteousness, you start to
36:16
be merciful to other people, then there's a consistency that
36:20
comes. That's integrity.
36:21
That pure in heart is talking about your integrity.
36:24
OK. And it's also matched nicely in
36:27
the chiasm there with Blessed are the meek.
36:30
Yeah, blessed the pure in heart, blessed the peacemakers, for
36:33
they shall be called sons of God.
36:35
Now that's where you move beyond just having integrity to, you
36:38
know, peacemaking. In the Bible, that word peace is
36:42
Shalom. Like the idea there is something
36:44
much bigger than just, like, lacking conflict or settledness
36:48
or calmness, any of that kind of a thing.
36:51
It's all about it's, it's about actually making the world right.
36:56
Nice. Like that idea of Shalom is I'm
36:59
making the world right, OK. But as you do that, as you
37:02
actually get out in the world and you're making a changing
37:04
impact, what's going to happen to you?
37:07
Is that the next verse? Yep, you're going to face
37:09
opposition. Best that are those who are
37:11
persecuted for righteousness sake.
37:13
For, there's the Kingdom of. Heaven, that's no fun.
37:16
It's no fun, but it's so fascinating like and and you
37:20
know what, I think Jesus was reading your mind on that.
37:22
Why? Because the very next verse he
37:24
like he nails it home. He's like blessed.
37:27
Are you like he changes from? From the third person.
37:31
Yeah, he changes from the. Third Person, blessed are you,
37:35
is that when men shall revile and speak.
37:37
Yes, yeah. Blessed are you when others
37:39
revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against
37:42
you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for great
37:45
is your reward in heaven. Nice.
37:47
Yeah. Yeah.
37:48
Such a beautiful passage. So good, so good.
37:51
I think that's a good, you know, landing point for, you know.
37:53
Yeah, feelings are. Important feelings are
37:55
important.