Latest / Glovisor Podcast / Ep. 37: Why Smart Entrepreneurs Think Differently (The Harvard & MIT Advantage) Stever Robbins
Transcript
- Joe: When a person with MIT logic, hardware strategy, and a hippie commune upbringing explains leadership, you get insights you won't forget. Welcome to the Globizor Podcast, where we explore business growth, communication, and personal development through real conversations with people that make an impact. Our guest is a self-described Uber Geek who studied computer science at MIT and went to Harvard Business School on a dare. He's also a lifelong entrepreneur who blends technology, leadership, and human behavior into practical strategies that help people think clearer and lead better. He has built startups, shaped leadership education, rate on productivity, and turned complex ideas into simple, actionable insights. His background is unconventional, his perspective is sharp, and his ability to make challenging concepts easy to understand is unmatched. Globizer welcomes Stever Robins. Hey Stevie? Stever Robbins: Thank you so much. I all I can say is that I he sounds like a great guy. I hope someday to be as good as him. Joe: Glad you're here and and looking forward to the conversation. Stever Robbins: Me too. Joe: let's start with what do you do, Steamer? Stever Robbins: what I do so I can tell you what I call myself, which is I usually call myself either an executive coach when I am in an advisory position, or I call myself some variant of chief operating officer or operations doobie when I am in an operational role. But basically what I do is I work with people who are building businesses. or who are within a business and I help them understand what it takes for them to be able to move up, either getting promoted in a large organization or having an organization grow underneath them, in the case of a small and growing firm, so that they can master themselves, master the business itself, everything from strategy to operations to people management. I'm a one man MBA program combined with a psychologist. It's a very strange combination. Joe: It's very interesting how you coach and help individuals and it blends right into the personal psychology world. Stever Robbins: Well, in my experience, a lot of people who do coaching or consulting or advising are the kinds of things that I do, either they specialize in process and in business and in structure and in organizations, or they specialize in people and they understand people, people dynamics, leadership dynamics. I have largely as a result of my bizarre and odd background and how I got there. I take both and I think of them the same way. So to me, The people in a business, and in particular the leadership in a business, is just one more component of the business. And to I I know we love to have org charts where we say, we have a little box on the org chart and we can put any person we want to in there as long as they have the set of skills. I I don't think that's true. I think that people generally speaking are unique, that everyone has strengths and weaknesses and all of that. And when you're seeking to understand your business, you need to understand not only the business processes and the business organization. But who the people are and how those people actually fit into the business and the business organization that you've built. I'm gonna go really trite here and choose an absolutely overdone example, but that example being Steve Jobs. And Steve Jobs had a particular set of aesthetics and a particular set of beliefs about the way that people experienced and used products. And those beliefs put Apple on the map the first time around. pretty much took the graphical user interface and popularized it. He didn't invent it, it was invented at Xerox Park, but he was the one who brought it, who really commercialized it in a significant way. And then when he returned to Apple in the mid nineties, he trimmed down the product line, leaned very heavily into the aesthetics and the interface and the beauty and the elegance of the products. Now anyone who turns around and says all you need is business sense to be that person will know. There was no business analysis that I am aware of that would have pointed you in that direction. That was a combination of his ability to make certain things done, but get certain things done, but also his personal vision, his personal aesthetics, his personal style. And if you talk to people who worked for him, there was the infamous Steve Jobs reality distortion field in which he was hard on people. He was the kind of boss that a lot of people would quit. But There was something about his personal style and the way that he managed it that gave people unbelievably challenging goals and made them want to reach those goals. And you can't pretend that that's not significant. And of course there's plenty of lesser examples, but he's one who I think is prominent because basically when he died, Apple's creativity engine, I would submit, fell off a cliff. But that's just my own personal my own personal opinion. so in terms of taking those two sides, taking the psychological side and taking the business process side, I am deeply versed in both. I know how both work. I can make personal change with people when that's what's standing in the way. I can help someone make business change if that's what's standing in the way. Joe: Now every successful entrepreneur has a defining moment. What inspired you to pursue what you do today? Stever Robbins: my entire career has been spent in startups. I moved away from home when I was fifteen years old, and that was younger than the legal work age. So I got my first jobs under the table working for startups. And this was also unusual because at the time I was a computer programmer at the age of fifteen. But this was I'm not gonna give you a year because I really don't wanna face that in public or in private or even in my diary. But it was a long time ago and it was way before fifteen year olds had any easy way to program. So it was a it was very valuable to a company to have somebody who was able to program, who they didn't have to pay full benefits to, and stuff like that. So got a job under the table and and I stayed in the startup world pretty much for for my career for a couple of decades. And this wasn't intentional. I didn't say, I want to be with a startup. It just happened to be that once I knew the startup environment, I really understood how do you grow something from, you know, zero to be something else. And I was at my sixth startup over the course of 18 years. And things weren't working out. And they weren't working out because this being my sixth startup, I could see the writing on the wall that we were headed to a brick wall at a hundred miles an hour. And I went to the other partners in the business and I said, Hey guys, we're headed for a brick wall at a hundred miles an hour. And they said, You don't understand entrepreneurship. You just gotta have faith in the vision. And I said, Guys, this is my sixth startup. I have seen this I've seen this movie play out several times. You have never done a startup before. So maybe instead of leaning into the myth of a startup, maybe you should listen to me 'cause I have something to offer. they didn't. And the company hit the brick wall and ended up failing. And I went to my career-long mentor and I said, Lynn, I I don't get it. I don't understand. I have I'm right, frankly. I have experience that's valuable, I have perspectives that are valuable, I'm a great strategist. Why am I on my sixth startup? why do I keep changing career paths every three years? And he said, the reason is that you're a process thinker and you walk into an environment and you see all of the things that are wrong that could be right and you can see how to make them right. And foolish me, I said, Well that sounds great. Like can't I just put that on my resume and be employed for life? And he said, There's only one problem, which is that people don't want that. People, generally speaking, do not want the way they do things to be challenged. They do not want to have to change behavior. What they want is to continue doing exactly what they have always done, but suddenly get different results. And I was like, Great, so what do I do for a living? And he said, Well, you go out and you find people who are in the moment where they know that they don't know what to do next, and you help them. And that way you are always helping people at a time of maximum impact and maximum leverage. And then when you're done, you go on to the next one. And at the time the concept of executive coaching was just coming into being. This was the late nineties. And I said, Okay. I'll give that a shot. And I went and pitched myself to my first client and he hired me to coach him and then to coach several of his senior executives. And within a year I had a business up and running and doing great. And that that for me was the biggest career pivot. Joe: Interesting. Now i if you don't mind, let's go back to those startups that you had and you've also Stever Robbins: Gap. Joe: in hindsight, you you can look back and and see what went right and what wrong, but then you also have clients that you've worked with and what is the common ingredient would you say that makes the startup they will succeed? Stever Robbins: Sure. Well, other than luck, and I think that luck is actually undercredited b in a lot of cases. you know, I think that the common ingredient is finding the market sweet spot. So, you know, it's really marketing. And this gets into the reason I ended up going to Harvard Business School. you know, I went saying I I like to say I went on Adair because it sounds provocative and and interesting. It was close, but it wasn't exactly a dare. I had been working as an engineer. And the company that I was working for w had by far the best product on the market and I know that because that's why I chose to go work there. I actually interviewed with all the major players in that industry. They had the best product on the market and two weeks after I joined, they had the first round of layoffs and they were going out of business. And a year and a half into into my tenure there, I went to my boss and she said, What do you want to do next? You've I had very I had excellent performance reviews and She said, you know, there's not really any place to promote you. What what do you want to do? And I said, I want to understand how is it possible that we have the best product on the market and we're going out of business? How can that how? I was taught at MIT that if you had the best product it would win, which by the way, bad on MIT. and she said, what you want is you want to understand marketing and strategy. And I said, I don't know what those words even mean. She said, Well, you know, how do I learn about them? And she said, To learn about them, you either need gray hair or an MBA. I still don't have the gray hair. I'm starting to get some. In the right, the right light, you can see it. So I'll look distinguished and wise. But the MBA was within my reach. And I said, I don't want to go back to school again. So, you know, I'm not sure what I'll do. And she said, Go sit in on a class at business school, and you can apply. And if you get in, you can always say no. So it just so happened that the only business school that was within walking distance to my apartment was Harvard Business School. So I walked over to HBS, sat in on a class. I don't know if you're familiar, but all the classes at HBS are case study, so they're all discussion. my god, that looked like so much fun. Huh. Joe: Yeah. Stever Robbins: Yeah. There's a big difference between one class that looks like fun and doing eight hundred of them in a row, but that's another story. So I went, I thought it sounded like a ton of fun. I applied, I got in. And I still very vividly remember getting in and then just calling Nancy, my boss, and saying, Nancy, you were wrong. I grew up in a trailer in a hippie commune, and I'm holding an acceptance letter to Harvard Business School. I said, There is no possible way that I can say no to this. And that led me to HBS, and at HBS, What I learned, and believe it or not, this is the I'm finally getting to the answer to your question. what I really what I really vividly learned was that marketing genuinely is, I believe, the single most important element of a business. it it it turned out to be true for the company that I left to go to business school. And when I look at the companies that I've been with since and that I've been involved with, it is consistently marketing that makes the difference. And I don't mean marketing In terms of the tiny implementation details of like, you should put a pixel on this form, and that pixel will allow you to retarget blah blah blah. I'm like, ugh, give me a freaking break. What I mean by marketing is, hey, Joe has a real problem. And his problem can be solved by this widget. I am going to make a widget at a price point that Joe can afford. which I can produce for less than the for less than that price, so there's some left over to pay for me and my employees and and to profit. And I do that and the world is now a better place. Because Joe has a solution to his problem. I have a way to make a living for myself. I am employing a bunch of people and like everything about that is good. and that's all marketing. Marketing is is the coming up with that combination of things. And that I think is probably the single most important thing about you know, in terms of success for any business. I will also put a caveat in that and say the sophistication and the kind of marketing that works changes according to the maturity of an industry and according to the maturity of a business. So the things that will help a tiny little startup succeed or a one-person business are very different from the things that will help an enterprise wide. companies succeed. The marketing challenges are different. The channels of distribution are different. The way you message things is different. But the basic concept of I need to meet the market's need with whatever it is that I offer and make sure the market knows about that and that I can deliver that at a price the market can afford, that's pretty much constant throughout. Joe: what were some of the biggest obstacles that you had to overcome? As you mentioned, you you were growing up in a trailer, and here you are sitting at a Harvard school. there was a lot in between. Can you tell us what what was the biggest obstacle that you faced? Stever Robbins: Before Harvard or at Harvard? 'Cause I've faced a lot of obstacles. Joe: Between the trailer and Harvard. Stever Robbins: Well, you know I mean I don't know the age of people listening to this. but one of the more interesting things about life is that sometimes it's only in retrospect that you understand what was hard and what was easy, because you maybe d did things and faced challenges that were very, very difficult, but you were too young to know they were difficult. You just did the thing that seemed obvious to you. And there are other things which seemed difficult, but now in retrospect you can go like, you know. Great, so I had to do ten pull ups in f in PE class, you know, that's not really the agonizing defeat that I thought it was. so I will answer from the first one. What did I genuinely do that I didn't know how hard or how remarkable it was? When when the my father had settled after doing the the whole commune thing. My father settled in San Diego and I went to live with my mother somewhere else. And I decided that I wanted to live with my father, not my mother. And I went out to spend the summer with my father, and while I was out there, I discovered there was a magnet school for math, science, and computers. And again, this was back when you literally could not even get a book on computers from the library because it just wasn't a popular enough topic. It was a very specialized thing. And the idea of a high school that had a computer, and by the way, a com for those of you for those of you that have only seen this in the movies. This was a computer that filled an entire room and required a separate air conditioning system, et cetera. I actually don't think I'm joking about this. I am willing to bet that the processing power in my Apple AirPods is roughly the equivalent of what this room sized computer would do. And I couldn't pass that up. I desperately wanted to go to that to that high school. And it just so happened that it was a magnet school, which for those of you who don't know what a magnet school is, it's a school that is specifically designed to promote racial integration. So they in this case they put the magnet school in a minority, a l a very low-income minority neighborhood, and they bust in middle class kids from different neighborhoods with different skin color. I was and and I wanted to be bust in to this the school that had a primarily minority minority population. And they wouldn't do it because the district I was moving from also needed majority students. And they said, well, you could move into that school, but we can't let you out of the school that you're in the district for. My father just happened to live across the street from the Department of Education. And for an entire summer I would just walk across the street to the Department of Education and go knocking on doors saying, I want to get in to this to I want to get into this school. Please let me in and people would say no and I would say why not? And they would give me a reason. And I would go home and figure out how to how to respond to that reason the next time someone said it. And I would go back the next day and this time I would go to a different office and ask a different person. And eventually they let me in. You know, I I I got to someone and he was like, kid, if you will just stop bothering us, you know, we'll Joe: Yeah. Stever Robbins: we'll let you go to that school. And when I look on that in retrospect, and I say, How many people, even me today, I don't know if if today I would have the the grit and the determination to just do that over and over and over and over and over until I got the break that I wanted. I've gotten way too easy. I've gotten way too used to life being easier than that. So I would say that was a surprisingly big one. Because that changed the tr that that very much changed the trajectory of my entire life. The other thing, which is the part that's the part that's a little bit more intense, I guess, is I moved out to stay with my father, said I want to stay here for this magnet school. And my father said, Well, me and your stepmother are gonna be moving away in about six weeks. So if you want to stay here, you're gonna have to stay here on your own. And I said, Okay stay here on my own. And so I became an emancipated miner and I stayed in San Diego on my own and lived alone from the time I turned 15. Well, so this is the thing that it's only in deep retrospect that I understand. Somehow I pulled it off and I had a little bit of income from programming computers, but basically there were days I didn't have enough money to eat and there was nothing in my cupboard. my stepfather would not let my mother send me money, and my father just elected not to send me money. We can talk about that with my therapist at some point. but somehow I pulled through and survived. So for decades I thought that that was the absolute rock bottom of my life and just the hardest and and biggest struggle. I found out at my twenty-second High school reunion, that my friends' parents all knew about my situation. And they had all gotten together and they had a rotation to have their kids invite me over to do homework with them right about dinner time so that I would actually be able to get fed and and survive, basically. But I didn't know that at the time. So I do kind of wish they had told me. I wasn't proud. I would. been I would have absolutely been thrilled like that. I would have like, great, just give me a copy of the schedule and I'll Joe: Yeah. Stever Robbins: just meet you at your door at the right time. but i upon learning that, that really reinforced for me in a big way the power of community, the power of connections, the power of supporting each other. And you know, to get philosophical and totally off track here for a minute, we we live in this world right now where We trumpet the idea of independence. And that is absolutely bizarre because we live in the most interdependent, interconnected society and economy that has ever existed on this planet by orders of magnitude. Just the very fact that I'm talking to you involves infrastructure, it involves power grids, it involves satellite infrastructure, it involves dozens of different computer protocols all running at the same time. Like like there's probably a hundred thousand people. Who are involved in me being able to have this conversation with you. And it all works so well that we all have the illusion of independence. And I think that one of the things we have really lost, much to our detriment, is a deep appreciation for how all of this just works because we're all working together. And we may have disagreements about different parts of the system and different ways that it works, but at the end of the day, the it's the interdependence that makes it work. Because it does me no good at all to be able to, you know, build a machine if I can't get machine parts. And the only way to get machine parts is from that person over there, and the only way that they can get machine parts is by sourcing it from six different places and six different countries. I mean the interdependence is just spectacular. And the fact that we have money mediating it instead of direct personal connection. I had it with direct personal connection, and I didn't even know that until twenty two years later. Today we have it We have it all through transactions and and a market economy. but but that doesn't make it any less interdependence. It just means we have a different medium that is allowing us to engage in the exchanges. And yeah, anyway, I'm getting way too philosophical, but that's why you as an entrepreneur, that's why a business person, when you think about your customers, understand If your product or service is actually good and serves them, you have just become an integral part of your of their life. And the fact that it's mediated by money does not make you any less important to them and shouldn't make them any less important to you. Joe: I love your stories. I think that there's so many lessons in both of those stories. And by the way, I would definitely lead when what is my biggest obstacle? Not being able to eat when you're 15. I would lead with that one. Stever Robbins: Yeah. Yeah, that I mean, that was pr that was really traumatic. It shaped it shaped many aspects of my personality that I'd kinda like to go back and reshape, but even as good at psychology as I am, there do seem to be elements that like, you know like I've just never been able to get past certain things. Joe: Stever, what I do like about that is that if I am one of your clients, I know that you understand what the worst case scenario is and where we're headed. Because it's easy for us to sit here and to think of being a billionaire and how great it's gonna be. But the alternative, or if we make the wrong choice is what might happen in it, which is the worst case scenario, but you've been there. You know what that's like. And I think that there's a lot of value there that if if I were a client of yours, that you can tell me this is what happens and this is how we do it. Stever Robbins: Yeah. And and here's how to set yourself up for resilience. And you know, I'm a little bit more sophisticated in how I think these days than I was when I was fifteen. there are a lot of strategies for how to make decisions under uncertainty, how to decide how much to bet when you are taking a risk that I didn't know at fifteen. And you know, a lot of these things if I knew them if I if I knew then what I knew today, I would still not have had enough money to eat and I still would have been pretty hungry. But but I could have made there were decisions that I made 'cause I thought the world worked a certain way, and if someone had just said, look, you know, this too shall pass with a seventy eight percent probability, so here's how you calculate expected value and fifteen year old me would have gone, Why are we doing this? And adult Joe: Yeah. Stever Robbins: me would have gone, because you're thinking in thing of things as absolutes And you are making decisions based solely on your best case or worst case scenario, when what you really need to do is understand how to make a blended decision that takes both of those into account. Joe: if one of our listeners wanted to work with you, what would that journey look like? Stever Robbins: Well, depends on the listener. but generally speaking, I work with people on defined some coaches are like, I'll be your friend for the next ten years. I tend to work on defined inflection points, either in a business or with a person, or like a you know, again, phase zero to one of a company, like helping someone get a company up and running and and on a good path to growth. So usually it starts with somebody having a goal, either a goal that they want to achieve and they're not sure how to achieve it. Or they start with some kind of problem which and they don't understand the diagnosis or what or how to get past it. in fact I I have there was one client that I had who showed up and said, Look, I'm at the beginning of my career, I'm at stage one of a company where, you know, stage zero is just getting started, stage one is I have a slight track record and and I want to accelerate it. So with that person, the question becomes, how do we understand what you have going for you, how do we understand the context in which you're operating and then identify what's holding you back and then release that bottleneck. And sometimes what's holding someone back is the personal stuff. Sometimes what's holding them back is the business process. Sometimes what's holding them back is the marketing. Contrast that with a different client of mine who showed up and said, you know what? I am great at building businesses. And every time my businesses hit a billion dollars, I get fired. I'm like, okay. Number one, you have a business that hit a billion dollars? No, I have three businesses that hit a billion dollars. Okay then. So once once we're past the the wide eyed, do I really understand the problem you're presenting me with? this you know, then the next step was, okay, let's really investigate the circumstances surrounding surrounding how exactly does does your leadership break down? Is it a problem with that person? Is it a problem with the surrounding context? Is it that the company is about to go public and there are requirements in the IPO process that this person doesn't meet? So there it really becomes, when it's a an obstacle that someone has, it becomes a real exploration of the context and then of what which elements can that person control and which ones can't they? And then we go from there. Joe: can you share a success story that illustrates the transformation of your work? Stever Robbins: I'm trying to think I need to be need to be discreet here because not everyone I've worked with necessarily has it known, or or wants it known. You know, I worked with somebody who was recently graduated from undergrad and he had an idea for a company and had started it, you know, essentially with a friend of his in a dorm room. And we worked together on helping him develop the business analysis. skills to think about the business, a bunch of the strategic positioning, again, some of the marketing things. And ultimately came up with a way of helping him frame his business so that it was very valuable to his eventual market and more so also to investors who invest in that kind of business. There are certain stories that work with investors that you know, you you need to present things a certain way for an investor to take it seriously. The story that every investor wants is invest one dollar in this business and you will take out ten hundred billion gajillion dollars with no risk. in three years. Right? That's the story that everyone wants. The fact that it actually has happened five or six times in human history makes everyone believe they can be the five or six times, despite the fact that forty to fifty thousand businesses are started every single year in America alone. No one, you know, every everyone is focused on that point zero zero zero one percent probability. But you need to be able to take your story and and frame it in a way that the investment community will listen to it. And so I work with this person to frame that. He was able to get funding and the business was on good operational footing. And I think five or six years later he sold it for a ridiculously large amount of money that enabled him to buy a mansion and a beautiful car and decide whether or not he actually wanted to live that lifestyle or Go to another startup. Joe: That's a great story. Wow. Stever Robbins: And he decided to go to the other startup, by the way. That's the interesting punchline. yeah, he he can retire can retire for life whenever he wants to, but he's like, Nah, it's too much fun. Joe: most of the individuals that come through the podcast that have done startups, once they get extremely successful, the next thing that they're thinking about is how to start the next startup. What they're gonna do next. They're not thinking about vacationing or or buying the mansion and just relaxing. No, they want to move on to the next process. So is that just the nature of those individuals? Stever Robbins: This is something I struggle with a lot. do you want the long answer or the short answer? Joe: But me middle of the road, how's that? Stever Robbins: Okay. For some people it's a personality thing. they need a certain level of stimulation, and neither retirement nor a comfortable corporate job will give you that. sadly, I fall into that category is that I require a lot of intellectual stimulation, and if I don't get it, I will make it. And what that means is that I will find ways to complicate my life so that I can then have fun, in air quotes, so that then I can have fun. Fixing all the complications. I do not recommend that as a strategy for happiness. It's it's just caused by having an overactive brain. some people genuinely just love doing startups and they do them over and over and over. I like the excitement, I like building something from scratch. So, you know, I am guessing at some point I'm gonna get back into the operational game and I'm guessing it's gonna be with a startup or a very early stage company. Because I just I love that there's so much creativity, you can shape things, you have a lot of control. Cycle times to make a change can be measured in, you know, days or weeks instead of being measured in, you know, we're going to do this change where we add a checkbox to the input form. That will only take us nine years to do once we get everyone involved who has to I'm just like, please, you know, for God's sake. so for some people it's it's personality. I also think for for a surprising number of people it's just it's lack of creativity. You know, I think There are a number of changes that I would like to see in the world. And if I had a nine figure exit, which, you know, I have several actually I have some ex clients who've had nine figure exits and I have several friends who've had nine figure exits. I would want to go make some of those changes in the world. And I think that can be as exciting as a startup can be. It's a very different kind of work. It's, you know, it has to do with culture change, it might have to do with research, it might have to do with legislation or, you know, whatever. But There are very few people in the world who have the luxury of being able to try to play a very big game on a very big stage. And if you've got a hundred million dollars in the bank, you're one of those people. Joe: if listeners who don't have nine digits are listening to this today and Stever Robbins: Yes. Joe: you want them to remember one thing from our carbon station today, what would that message be? Stever Robbins: Well, you know, we didn't actually talk about this in great detail, but if you're an entrepreneur in fact my last answer alluded to this. If you're an entrepreneur, instead of thinking of yourself as somebody who is doing the work of bringing something to market and improving the world and improving your relationship with your customers in a certain way, think of yourself as a builder, as somebody who is building an organization and building a presence and an entity in the world, which is what a company is. and it is that entity that needs to be making that difference in the world. You're never going to get nuclear disarmament just as a as a sole individual. Your job is to create the circumstances, the people, the motivations, the compensation mechanisms, the reward system, the stories that need to be made so that the rest of the system can adjust and have the effects you want. So as an entrepreneur, You're probably you're almost certainly day-to-day deep in all these tactical decisions. You know, what am I, what what marketing campaign should we do, what product should we offer, et cetera, et cetera? And I would offer you the single takeaway to try on the hat of how do I build an organization, how do I find the people who will make all those decisions and do all those things, with me as the orchestrator, not with me as the doer or me as the person who's down in the weeds. And by the way, You asked earlier what my biggest challenge was. this that that mindset shift was it because as an engineer at MIT, I was taught to take my project and go deep and detailed with it. And as a business strategist at Harvard Business School, what I was taught was to go big and larger and think in terms of systems and economies and organ and multi-person organizations. And that was very, very, very hard for me. I it took me many years to really get the hang of doing that. And and now I can do it and I can do it pretty smoothly. But it but I d was not able to for for quite a while. And it took many years to do it and then many more years to recognize that I was able to do it successfully. Joe: where can our audience connect with you, learn more about your work, and continue this conversation? Stever Robbins: Sure. You can find me at Stepher Robins S T E V E R R O B B I N S dot com. and if you go to Steve Robins forward slash contact, you can send me an email. And if you go to steverrobins.com forward slash newsletter, you can sign up for my newsletter, which in theory comes out every other week. And I want to be very clear there is a difference between theory and practice. Big difference. But in theory it's it's comes out twice a month. Joe: Well, Steve, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your insights and your stories. Stever Robbins: Awesome. Well thank you very much and I I look forward to appearing again on on maybe on marketing topics next time. Joe: Looking forward to it. Thanks everyone for listening. If this episode inspired you, share it with someone who needs it. And don't forget, follow the Globizor Podcast for more conversations that make an impact. Till the next time.