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Conclave: How Much of the Movie Is Actually True? · The Infographics Show Podcast

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  Speaker 1: Welcome back to beyond infographics. Today we're diving into something
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  Speaker 1: really fascinating, the election of a new Cope's It's a
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  Speaker 1: process that's just steeped in secrecy, centuries of tradition. Always
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  Speaker 1: grabs my attention, it really does.
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  Speaker 2: It's quite unique. And what's interesting for our deep die
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  Speaker 2: today is we're looking at it through the lens of
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  Speaker 2: that twenty twenty four film Conclave. It's a thriller, dramatic
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  Speaker 2: and while.
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  Speaker 1: It is fiction, right, it's a movie.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly, but it gives you this really compelling glimpse into
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  Speaker 2: the kind of dynamics, the tensions you know that could
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  Speaker 2: happen when the Catholic Church chooses its next leader.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, forget the dry history for a bit. We're going
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  Speaker 1: to use this film the story to unpack the real thing.
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  Speaker 1: And it's kind of surprising how some bits in the
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  Speaker 1: movie actually, while they echo real history, real procedures.
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  Speaker 2: They give it as your backstage pass.
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  Speaker 1: Totally a backstage pass to the human drama, the politics,
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  Speaker 1: maybe the unexpected twists that can happen when you're deciding
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  Speaker 1: the future of well, one of the world's biggest religions.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so let's set the scene the film conclave that
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  Speaker 2: kicks off right after the pope dies heart attack apparently.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the trigger, right, that's the trigger.
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  Speaker 2: The College of cardinals gets called together and the dean
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  Speaker 2: in the film, it's Cardinal Thomas Lawrence. He's sort of
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  Speaker 2: leading the charge, gathering everyone to elected successor. The dean's
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  Speaker 2: role in real life is crucial in that interim period.
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  Speaker 1: It's interesting that timing because it didn't poke Francis have
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  Speaker 1: that hospital stay early twenty twenty five. He's eighty eight
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  Speaker 1: now I think he is.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the Kasa conclave actually mentioned that how it
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  Speaker 2: made the film scenario feel very well, very real, very timely.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And the location the film gets a spot on,
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  Speaker 1: of course, it's the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican. Did
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  Speaker 1: you know the fourteen ninety two conclave was the first
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  Speaker 1: one held there?
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  Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, iconic setting and the film shows that
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  Speaker 2: strict seclusion too. The cardinals are literally locked in kunk
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  Speaker 2: with a key with a key until the new pope
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  Speaker 2: has chosen. And that's not just soli with drama. That
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  Speaker 2: rule goes way back twelve seventy four Pope.
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  Speaker 1: Gregory X Wow thirteenth century Why so strict.
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  Speaker 2: Well, the idea was partly to prevent outside influence political meddling,
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  Speaker 2: but also to kind of force the issue, keep them focused,
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  Speaker 2: spiritually detached, get it done without endless delays or external pressures.
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  Speaker 2: The rule's been tweaked over time, but the core idea
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  Speaker 2: of isolation it's stuck makes sense.
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  Speaker 1: And today the security must be intense.
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  Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, before they even start, the whole chapel is swept,
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  Speaker 2: you know, for bugs, listening devices, Wi Fi blocked, signal jammers.
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  Speaker 1: Deployed, no newspapers, no TV.
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  Speaker 2: Nothing, total media blackout inside. Keeps that isolation intact.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So back to the film. We meet the main
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  Speaker 1: contenders pretty quickly. Four big names seem to be in
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  Speaker 1: the running.
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  Speaker 2: Right, You've got Aldo Bellini. He's the American sort of progressive,
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  Speaker 2: and the film hints he failed to get elected before,
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  Speaker 2: a bit like Cardinal Martiz in real life back in
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  Speaker 2: two thousand and five.
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  Speaker 1: Interesting parallel. Who else?
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  Speaker 2: Then there's Joshua Adami from Nigeria, Yeah, portrait as socially conservative,
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  Speaker 2: Joseph Tremblay Canadian more mainstream conservative, and Goeffredo to Desco,
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  Speaker 2: the Italian presented as a real staunch Traditionalist.
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  Speaker 1: And the intrigue starts almost immediately, doesn't it.
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  Speaker 2: The Prefect of the papal household tells Cardinal Lawrence the
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  Speaker 2: Dean that the dead Pope actually wanted Tremblay the Canadian, to.
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  Speaker 1: Resign, which Tremblay denies.
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  Speaker 2: Flat out denies it. And meanwhile, Bellini the progressive is
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  Speaker 2: already working behind the scenes to stop to Desco the traditionalist.
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  Speaker 2: So you see the maneuvering right away.
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  Speaker 1: Then there's that curveball arrival.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Archbishop Vincent Binidez from Kabul. Turns out he was
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  Speaker 2: named a Cardinal inpector secretly, secretly by the late Pope.
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  Speaker 2: He shows up right at the last minute. Now, people online,
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  Speaker 2: they've debated this bit. Oh about the accuracy, Yeah, because
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  Speaker 2: typically for a secret appointment like that to be valid
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  Speaker 2: for a conclave, the Pope usually has to make a
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  Speaker 2: public before he dies. So a slight dramatic license perhaps.
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  Speaker 1: Possibly Okay, So things get really juicy now in the
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  Speaker 1: film's plot, Lawrence gives this opening homily and some cardinals think,
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  Speaker 1: wait a minute, is he angling for the job himself?
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  Speaker 1: Creates a bit of an ease, and.
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  Speaker 2: The voting starts first ballots no winner means that two
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  Speaker 2: thirds majority. Eddie Amy, the Nigerian cardinal, seems to be
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  Speaker 2: in the lead, but Billini the Progressive and Lawrence the
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  Speaker 2: dean who gave that homily, they're kind of splitting the
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  Speaker 2: progressive vote.
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  Speaker 1: So no one's breaking through yet. And there was that
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  Speaker 1: old rule, wasn't there about not voting for yourself?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, after sixteen twenty one for a long time though
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  Speaker 2: that's been changed back now, I believe, but historically, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that was the thing.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. Then the secrets start coming out.
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  Speaker 2: This is where this thriller aspect really kicks in. Lawrence's
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  Speaker 2: assistant finds out the Pope paid for Benikaz the late
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  Speaker 2: arrival from Koboul to go to Geneva for medical appointment
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  Speaker 2: that got canceled. That got canceled. Yeah, just a little detail,
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  Speaker 2: but it starts raising questions what was that about?
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  Speaker 1: And then the big one.
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  Speaker 2: The really big one. Sister Shanumi confesses to Lawrence an
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  Speaker 2: illicit relationship with Cardinal Odiami.
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  Speaker 1: The front runner, their front runner.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they have a son.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, and Adami confirms it.
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  Speaker 2: He does when Lawrence confronts him. Now, Lawrence is bound
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  Speaker 2: by the confessional seal. He can't officially reveal.
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  Speaker 1: It, but somehow a whisper campaign.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly word gets out and Addie Yammy's chances gone just
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  Speaker 2: like that shows how volatile things are in there.
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  Speaker 1: So the landscape shifts.
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  Speaker 2: What happens then, well, Billini, the progressive, he makes a
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  Speaker 2: tactical move, maybe he holds his nose a bit, but
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  Speaker 2: he decides to back Tremblay, the mainstream conservative. Why to stop?
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  Speaker 2: To Desco, the staunch traditionalist, it's about blocking the candidate
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  Speaker 2: he sees is worse pragmatic alliances, you know.
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  Speaker 1: But Lawrence keeps digging, doesn't he He does.
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  Speaker 2: With help from Sister Agnes, the head housekeeper, to find
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  Speaker 2: out Trembley was the one who arranged for sister Shanumi
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  Speaker 2: to be transferred.
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  Speaker 1: Away m covering tracks well.
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  Speaker 2: Trembley claims the Pope ordered it, but Lawrence isn't convinced.
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  Speaker 2: He takes a huge step, goes into the Pope's sealed
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  Speaker 2: private apartment. Is that allowed technically no, it's sealed for
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  Speaker 2: a reason, But he does and finds documents looks like
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  Speaker 2: Trembley was paying cardinals for votes simony basically, oh wow.
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  Speaker 1: Corruption.
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  Speaker 2: He even shows the proof to Blini Blini begs him,
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  Speaker 2: don't reveal this, you know, maybe for the good of
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  Speaker 2: the church. Avoid the scandal leads to this really tense
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  Speaker 2: moment between the big moral dilemma.
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  Speaker 1: So what does Lawrence do?
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  Speaker 2: He goes public in the chapel, reveals what Tremblay did,
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  Speaker 2: and then he declares he's standing himself as a candidate
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  Speaker 2: directly against Tedesco.
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  Speaker 1: Highdrama and then an actual explosion.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, during the next ballot there's news of a suicide
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  Speaker 2: bombing somewhere in Europe, and then an explosion actually damages
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  Speaker 2: the Cystine Chapel itself, disrupts everything.
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  Speaker 1: How do the cardinals react to that?
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  Speaker 2: Very differently. Tedesco, the traditionalist, immediately calls for essentially religious
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  Speaker 2: war retaliation.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks.
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  Speaker 2: But Benita is the cardinal from caub He speaks out
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  Speaker 2: strongly against violence, criticizes the others for getting lost in politics,
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  Speaker 2: for getting their actual mission. It's a real turning point moment,
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  Speaker 2: and the election result the seventh ballot lights streaming through
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  Speaker 2: the damaged chapel window very symbolic, and Vince beneath As
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  Speaker 2: is overwhelmingly elected, takes a name innocent, totally unexpected outcome.
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  Speaker 1: But wait, there's still that final twist, right, the Geneva trip.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, yes, the final twist. Benitez confides in Lawrence the
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  Speaker 2: reason for the canceled medical trip. He reveals he was
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  Speaker 2: born intersex with both the uterus and ovaries, WHOA discovered
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  Speaker 2: during an epidectomy years ago. The Geneva appointment was for ahsterectomy,
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  Speaker 2: but he canceled it decided, as he puts it, to
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  Speaker 2: embrace how God made him. Leaves Lawrence and us the
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  Speaker 2: viewers with a lot to think about.
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  Speaker 1: Definitely, okay, let's pivot slightly back to the real world
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  Speaker 1: for a sec The voting process itself super secret.
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  Speaker 2: He said, meticulously, so the ballots are designed to ensure secrecy. Historically,
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  Speaker 2: the e and had features to prevent someone voting for themselves,
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  Speaker 2: though as we said, that specific rule changed. You have
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  Speaker 2: scrutineers counting the votes yea, and a key check. If
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  Speaker 2: the number of ballots doesn't perfectly match the number of electors,
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  Speaker 2: what happens. They burn them all unread and vote again immediately.
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  Speaker 2: No chance is taken with account.
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  Speaker 1: And the smoke signals can't forget those. That's the iconic image.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely after each vote or usually twice a day, they
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  Speaker 2: burn the ballots. If there's no pope, they add chemicals,
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  Speaker 2: have black smoke from Modenara. No pope yet exactly, but
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  Speaker 2: when someone is elected and accepts white smoke from Adibianca.
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  Speaker 2: They even sometimes release the chemical recipes the Vatican uses.
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  Speaker 1: Really, that's kind of cool.
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  Speaker 2: And then the announcement, once the new pope accepts, the
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  Speaker 2: senior cardinal deacon goes out onto the balcony of Saint
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  Speaker 2: Peter's big moment, shouts, hobims papem.
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  Speaker 1: We have a pope.
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  Speaker 2: We have a pope, announces the birth name and the
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  Speaker 2: chosen people name. Then often the new pope comes out,
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  Speaker 2: says a few words, gives the herbi et orbi blessing
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  Speaker 2: to the city in the world.
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  Speaker 1: So, reflecting on the film Enclave again, what are the
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  Speaker 1: big themes it's wrestling with, do you think?
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  Speaker 2: Well, definitely power, ambition, even in this very religious setting,
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  Speaker 2: you see those human drives. Then there's faith versus doubt,
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  Speaker 2: that tension is palpable, and the classic one tradition versus progress.
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  Speaker 2: How does this ancient institution navigate the modern world, And
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  Speaker 2: fundamentally it highlights the human side of it all. These
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  Speaker 2: aren't just roles, they're people.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally agree, and critics seem to pick up on that.
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  Speaker 2: Generally, Yes, lots of praise for the acting, the look
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  Speaker 2: of the film, the cinematography, and just getting that peak
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  Speaker 2: behind the curtain into this usually hidden event.
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  Speaker 1: But not universal praise noe.
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  Speaker 2: Some critics felt the plot itself, the central mystery was
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  Speaker 2: maybe a bit thin or is one put it a
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  Speaker 2: bit silly?
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  Speaker 1: And what about reactions from within the church or Catholic publications?
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  Speaker 2: Mixed bag really. Some saw it positively as a reflection
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  Speaker 2: on maybe needing spiritual renewal, themes of humility, doubt even
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  Speaker 2: among leaders, which can be healthy, but others. Others were
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  Speaker 2: more critical, felt it maybe caricatured different viewpoints within the church,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the staunch traditionalists, the eager progressive, maybe lacked
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  Speaker 2: historical nuance. One review I saw really disliked a particular speech,
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  Speaker 2: called it kind.
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  Speaker 1: Of generic, interesting and that ending the Benitez revelation, that
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  Speaker 1: must have sparked debate.
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  Speaker 2: Oh massively, online discussions places like Reddit. People had so
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  Speaker 2: many takes. Was it about faith rules, God's will? Was
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  Speaker 2: it a comment on the church needing to be more progressive?
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  Speaker 1: Oh, is it just a shock tactic?
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  Speaker 2: Some felt that way, Yeah, unrealistic, maybe a cheap twist.
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  Speaker 2: Others pointed to that final shot women leaving the Vatican
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  Speaker 2: as maybe a subtle critique of women's roles lots gone
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  Speaker 2: back there.
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  Speaker 1: So accuracy versus drama, where did the film land overall?
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  Speaker 2: Well, experts seem to agree that while the characters and
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  Speaker 2: the main plot points, the scandals, the specific votes are.
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  Speaker 1: Fictional right, made up for the story.
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  Speaker 2: The rituals, the procedures, the look and feel of the
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  Speaker 2: conclave itself largely correct. They got the process mostly right.
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  Speaker 1: Though you mentioned the designers took some liberties.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the set designers apparently made the living quarters that
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  Speaker 2: Doma Sunday Marthy feel a bit more oppressive, maybe than
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  Speaker 2: in reality, just to heighten the drama of a feeling
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  Speaker 2: of confinement. But the costume designers, for instance, they did
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  Speaker 2: deep research on.
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  Speaker 1: The vestments, and the writer actually talked to people.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the screenwriter, Peter Strawn, he consulted with a cardinal,
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  Speaker 2: apparently even got a private tour of the Vatican. So
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  Speaker 2: there was definitely an effort to ground it, even while
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  Speaker 2: telling a fictional thriller story.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So, as we wrap up this deep dive looking
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  Speaker 1: at conclaves through the lens of the film Conclave, it
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  Speaker 1: really shows you, doesn't it. Beneath all that ancient ritual,
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  Speaker 1: that secrecy, it's still fundamentally human.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely ambition, secrets, intrigue, but also faith, duty and like
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  Speaker 2: the film shows the potential for real surprises. It makes
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  Speaker 2: you think about that balance, you know, tradition and change,
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  Speaker 2: faith in doubt, what do we really look for in
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  Speaker 2: spiritual leaders.
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  Speaker 1: And the real process? Even without the movie drama, it's
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  Speaker 1: still this incredibly important, unique way of choosing a global leader.
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  Speaker 1: Hopefully this chat here on beyond infographics gave you some
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  Speaker 1: interesting things to think about, maybe spark some curiosity, we hope.
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  Speaker 2: So, and hey, if you enjoy this deep dive, maybe
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  Speaker 2: consider giving us a five star rating. It genuinely helps
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: other people find.
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  Speaker 1: The show, it really does, and maybe it leads you
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  Speaker 1: with a question to ponder. For institutions like this with
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  Speaker 1: such deep, deep roots, how do you balance honoring that
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  Speaker 1: past with needing to adapt? And what did you make
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  Speaker 1: of that ending in Conclave? What was it trying to
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  Speaker 1: say about faith or leadership or maybe something else entirely
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  Speaker 1: definitely food for thought for sure.
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  Speaker 2: Until next time, Thanks for joining us, Thanks for listening.