Latest / Humanity Working / Journey of Self-Discovery with Corissa Saint Laurent

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Journey of Self-Discovery with Corissa Saint Laurent · Humanity Working

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: As I discovered that both about myself and about people, um, again was another self-realization moment of saying, Oh, I am also in that cycle.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: I want others to fix me.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: I want other things outside of myself to be the answer, the solution.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I really at that point hadn't, as deep as I have to this point, um, tapped into that inner well of knowing and understanding and connection to a point of where I could actually go in and and find those answers and solutions for myself.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, it's Paul.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Just last week I sat down with Carissa St.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Laurent.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get into a ton of detail about her life in the episode, so I'm not going to tell you much here, except to say that she has a fascinating journey.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: It starts in Korea, stops off in Hollywood, and now finds her in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where I met her.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Carissa has a pretty unique perspective on what it takes to get the best out of yourself in this complicated life.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're working for a big corporation, working for yourself, or just figuring out what to do with your life.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: As she says, adulting is hard, but for me, it felt just a little bit more navigable after listening to her story.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everybody, I am here with Carissa St.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Laurent.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh welcome to Way Too Busy Carissa.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Paul.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to be with you.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you and I met relatively recently here in uh in Tulsa.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Fascinating discussion we had at that time, and I wanted to share some of your insights uh with the broader Way Too Busy listener base.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm gonna start with a super simple question, which here in the United States at least seems to be like the opening question in every dinner party, which is the one I hate, by the way, which is uh which is what do you do?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So how about you answer that in the traditional the dreaded what do you do?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, give me give me the traditional like my job thing.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I do have to say that um living outside of Los Angeles, this question isn't quite as bad.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um there it comes loaded with are you in the industry?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Can you get me apart?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Can you get me introduced to somebody?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've literally been walked away from in the middle of speaking by someone before where they were just like, okay, you're no one going the other way.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't mind answering this question outside of LA.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm um a marketing and business development professional, and I head up the marketing and biz dev for a rainwater company based in Austin.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So a rainwater company, what what even is that?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's uh so we capture and process, filter, purify rainwater for drinking.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds awesome.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: We'll make sure that we definitely have a link to that in the in the podcast notes because I'm sure people would just be interested in that.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: But we're not gonna spend much time talking about that today.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if somebody went to your website though, I think they would see that the answer is actually much bigger than just your job title currently.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So perhaps you could explain it more broadly.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you talk about how you help people?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, when I would say, you know, before I launched my professional career, so when I was in college, I studied abroad in New Zealand.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: I had an epic year that that quite literally changed my life, the course of my life.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I was very um directionless before that trip.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I had a direction.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the thing, you know, I had externally had a direction.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was a pre-med major, uh, you know, or or pre-I was pre-med, um, meaning taking all the classes and preparing for medical school.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: I was um, you know, had certain activities, you know, I had direction, but I had no internal compass.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing these things in a very rote way and just kind of checking off the boxes, um, completely unhappy, completely depressed, directionless.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so that trip really put my whole life into focus on a new path.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and what that path was was not a specific career, wasn't a specific profession.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: It was a mission and a calling to find my gifts and share those with the world and help others discover their light, their gifts, and share those with the world.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so really, you know, discover this for myself, but be able to then help other people discover theirs.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: And what that's translated to over time is, you know, helping individuals that has been probably more, you know, just from a, oh, we're friends or we're colleagues or we are um you're a client of mine and we work together.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't done the the traditional, I haven't been in a traditional um uh profession where I'm a therapist, let's say, but I kind of think like a therapist, of where I'm always looking at, you know, where does this stem from?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: What where does the the uh directionlessness, the unhappiness, the um lack of focus, etc., all come from.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like I'm this like armchair, you know, psychologist in that sense, or I approach life in that way.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so that's just infused everything I've done and led me honestly into the careers I've done, even though uh marketing and business development don't, as it sounds like worlds apart from this kind of work.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: It just follows me and also guides me in whatever I do.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I did, however, start in a whole different career that's a bit more connected to that um that mindset.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: So let's go back to that period.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you had that that year, as it were.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a couple of things that have happened at the uh at the same time, which are quite interesting, right?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're discovering, you're analyzing yourself, you're understanding more about yourself, you're looking to fix that.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've gone the extra step, which is like this thing that I'm looking to fix in myself, I can help other people fix too.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: So how did how did that happen?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's kind of rare.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think I I've always been attracted to helping others.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's what attracted me to wanting to be a doctor in the first place.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to help others heal.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And what I've discovered over time is that it's because I needed healing, right?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: I needed that um focus.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I think everything really ends up becoming this reflection of where we are in our current state, um, who we are in our current expression.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then we, you know, connect and could sort of create our life out of that expression.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: So at the time, you know, I wanted to heal because I needed healing.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: And um so I would say, oh, maybe that's part of my nature, but I don't know.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: It might be just part of my story that that is something that I was drawn to, but I'm still drawn to it.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm certainly still drawn to, you know, the internal healing work for myself, but also, you know, how can uh I just see so much suffering among people, whether it's simple things like I'm too stressed and I can't handle, you know, just the basic things of being an adult, you know, like adulting's hard.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or you know, some of the more severe things, like I've had uh we my husband and I have had a couple friends in the last two years commit suicide.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just, you know, this spectrum, this gamut of human suffering that I'm at once fascinated with and also am driven to help in some way.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whether that's just by, well, for me, it honestly comes from, you know, work on myself, work on what I how I can heal and be better and be more centered and focused and aligned so that I can then express that out to others and hopefully then affect some change in other people just simply through that way.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then it's also infused work my work at different times as well.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I started my career in the healing profession, so very, very direct.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was um, you know, after I decided med school wasn't for me, I ended up after graduation going into Eastern Healing Arts and doing um, you know, a degree or a uh training in all of these uh body works, energy works, um, mind-body therapies to help both myself again, although I didn't know it at the time, and then also help others.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I was in that profession for um the first part of my career, and it was it was fascinating and wonderful, and I loved helping in that way.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: But what I discovered is by being a hands-on type of uh healer, if you will, I ended up working with people who were not willing to work on themselves.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And saw, I mean, a very, very, very small percentage were.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: But most of the people that came to me were people that just kept coming back to me, which sounds from a business perspective amazing, right?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, okay, great, recurring revenue, amazing.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: But from a healing or healers perspective, it just didn't sit well with me.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't feel right.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, this is, you know, I I want people who are interested in actually changing, in actually transforming so that they don't need me, so that they can go on.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, as I just figured that out, or as I discovered that both about myself and about people, um, again, it was another self-realization moment of saying, Oh, I am also in that cycle.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: I want others to fix me.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: I want other things outside of myself to be the answer, the solution.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I really at that point hadn't, as deep as I have to this point, um, tapped into that inner well of knowing and understanding and connection to a point of where I could actually go in and and find those answers and solutions for myself.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so that took me out of the healing profession.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had you know built a business.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: So outside of just being a not just, it was a really wonderful profession, but I was never one for the sort of one-on-one client.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: My my business brain was too active.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so I took that profession and created a larger scale business out of it.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: I lived in LA at the time, and uh I ended up creating this spa and wellness retreat and parties uh company.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I would take this uh these wellness retreats into corporate businesses and into Hollywood parties.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I did awards events, you know, the backstage for awards, and um, you know, this was this and this was early 2000s.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: This was before corporate wellness was actually a thing.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was uh quite remarkable that you know companies were wanted to work with me at the time because it just didn't exist.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I I thank those early companies for seeing that benefit for their employees to be like, well, this is something that we need and we want and we want to give to our employees.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was a pretty awesome time.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it was also very specific to Los Angeles because there, you know, the there they were 10 plus years ahead when it comes to uh integrative medicine, holistic wellness, natural healing, and just I would say, in general, metaphysical uh arts.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a good time and place to be doing all that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that is really interesting.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're probably dead right that that it was not just the time, but the time and the place um in terms of how you're able to do that.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious, you know, having been in and around that area for for the last 20 years or so, what have you seen change, at least in the corporate landscape, in terms of people's willingness to accept that um the companies have a role in um promoting the wellness of their employees?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's really a whole completely new landscape, at least I would say from an intention standpoint.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we've got uh wellness programs, you've got you know, CSR departments, DEI departments, you've got um people and uh initiatives around you know taking care of employees beyond training them and then letting them go, right?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: That initial training um is standard, right?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Standard operating, you get them trained and then they they go.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but now this probably started a lot with the dot-com era of creating these office spaces that were conducive to long hours, basically, people almost living at the office and giving them everything they needed to live there, basically, right?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: They've got the worst, but they also have entertainment, they've got places to relax and unwind.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I don't know this, but I have my feeling is that this uh adoption of programs that actually help um with well-being and help with work-life balance and help with other areas of just integrating the whole human into the workplace probably stemmed from that era of just creating this more well-rounded kind of uh environment.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh, you know, there's a lot of well-meaning, well-intentioned companies or initiatives out there, uh, but then um with anything, it's it's about the execution, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I think a lot of there's companies out there that are trying to, okay, we want a wellness program and and we want uh these types of things to attract employees, uh, but then the the actual execution of that isn't really amounting to much as far as affecting change.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they've got, you know, a morning yoga class once a week, and that's their their wellness program, or they've got, you know, some um some new ways of of having discussions with employees that that talk about mental health.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: But um there, you know, I would say there's probably as many companies falling short in what they can do and what they can provide to their employees in this realm uh as there are success stories around it.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's something we've seen as well.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when we're consulting with organizations, one of the things that we'll often ask them is what is the what is the purpose of whatever well-being initiatives they have inside the organization?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is it and what you're trying to get at there is like, is this something that is central to the culture of your organization, or is this a band-aid that is designed to, if you like, deal with the fact that working inside this organization can be extremely challenging.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like a uh it's almost like in certain implementations, like working at this place kind of sucks.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So here's a here's a well-being program to to help mitigate that, right?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Which is which is not really kind of getting at the root cause, which is what is it like, what is it like to be able to create an organization that is that feels like a great place to work.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the problem, of course, with the band-aid approach, aside from anything else, is that not everybody uses the band-aid, right?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so in many cases, and we see this a lot, whereby like the uptake of these more, if you like, formalized well, uh, well-being and wellness initiatives is very is very minimal.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly it's very minimal if the culture of the organization is antithetical to that.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so the culture of the organization might be we're all gonna work ourselves into the ground and then we'll lose some people, but there's a well, there's a well-being program to take care of that.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in that culture and you're embedded in that culture, the likelihood of you making full use of it and improving the way uh which you work is is is significantly reduced.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that's kind of our angle on what uh on what we're seeing from our perspective.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: But you you you see something similar to that?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, and it, you know, it's it's a it's really a it does a disservice to the to the company or to the organization as well, because I think well-being it is not this program or a service that a company provides to its employees.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: It is a a service that when implemented well should help the entire organization be better, right?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: To operate better, to be more productive, to help the bottom line, to actually do things that will uh help the company grow in positive ways all across the board.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: So by not doing it or by just doing these quick little band-aid approaches, it's it's doing a huge disservice to the organization.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: You might as well not even do it if you're gonna just, you know, essentially, it's kind of like the the equivalent of greenwashing, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: You're just, you know, wellness washing and and really not creating hashtag wellness washing when you exactly.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I love to see it when there's companies that are actually like you were saying, they've they've it is part of the culture or things are being implemented because the culture is that way already.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, even better.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, can these initiatives, programs, apps, um departments that they might employ change that culture?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's even more extraordinary if you could go in and through this kind of adoption change a culture and um and and then therefore, you know, make it a better place for everyone.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: The Way Too Busy podcast is brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Working out of the office brings employees all kinds of freedoms, but it can be really difficult to do well and stay engaged every day.
• 20:53
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• 21:08
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• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds, helping everyone do great work from anywhere.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So given your experience, um, your personal experience and then your experience with working people really of over 20 years or so now, are you now at a point where you consider that having a kind of holistic view of yourself as an individual in terms of who you are, where your work fits in, where your life fits in, how you integrate those elements effectively?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Are you s do you feel that there is real evidence now that having that holistic View is directly associated with better performance.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and I would say more than I would say it differently for myself, that not necessarily a holistic view, but a holistic understanding of who I am.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because the understanding and being acquainted with your mind, your body, your spirit, the layers of who we are as a person, um are just the the getting to it's it's relating to what's already there.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's uncovering, unmasking what is already there.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: So we can, you know, if we don't unmask it, if we don't, you know, you could look at it as like the peeling of the layers of the onion, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: If you we don't get underneath and actually experience ourselves from all of these myriad of ways, and that's just, you know, three sort of core central ways.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: But then we could take each of those three core central uh components of mind, body, spirit and break those areas down into uh, you know, countless ways of of experience.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if we don't experience ourselves in that way, um, what we're doing is missing out on the totality of who we are.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that we discover it and then whoop, make it part of ourselves.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: It is already there.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that process of uncovering and then therefore releasing out into the world is is really to me uh the the core mission of life, that we are always uncovering more and discovering more of what's there and then being able to then relate more to other people, to the world, to problems, to challenges, to um things that we see that we now see differently.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so all of it helps in um, we could say from you know performative standpoint, certainly, uh, but just a truly relational standpoint with how we interact with everything around us.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love what you said there.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's something that that we've had to uh to really work on, I think, as uh on our side, uh both with uh myself and Ryan, my co-founder, as as found as ourselves, but then with the with the organizations and the people that we help.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that we we we come across a lot is a feeling among uh individuals and organizations that we work with that somehow like having that level of self-curiosity, as it were, um is almost indulgence self-indulgent and a s and a selfish act.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And what you realize after a while is is kind of exactly what you say, which is that understanding yourself better really from a purely just practical perspective, if you understand yourself well, um then your ability to be able to do good for others is massively is massively enhanced because it's like it's like the cot the engine of a car, right?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you know how the engine of a car works, you know how you can tune the engine of the car.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you know what your own engine is like, you know how you can tune it for the benefit of others.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be a very practical act, understand uh understanding yourself better and something that is just is is worth looking at because we are all individual.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're all different to each other.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And knowing how we absolutely how we knowing ourselves helps us understand how we can be our best selves.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I a lot of people, especially, you know, I would say, you know, people who are are more curious about life will go out and explore all sorts of things outside, right?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: And they will experience the heck out of the world.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: They'll go and travel, they're gonna learn all, you know, jujitsu and um, you know, coding and take on so many external experiences because that is enriching.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's certainly um uh a point of curiosity to go out and find out about all of these things.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the same thing, it's the same kind of curiosity that we just turn inward to see, you know, what can I discover about my own inner, you know, inner uh centeredness, my own uh trauma, my own uh what kind of experiences can I have if I sit differently while I'm working, or maybe I'm gonna try this like standing desk situation and feel into that and see what that changes for my in my life and in my performance.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so that inner exploration is really the you know, it's just the same stuff, but we we get so externalized as human beings, I think, from a very early age.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: We're taught to trust what's out here, you know, the authority, the figurehead, the you know, all that information coming at you from outside.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where you uh turn, right?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: When you're learning and and and gleaning information and and it's all coming from out there.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we're not really taught, at least in you know, here in the United States, um, not traditionally taught how to turn within and how to uh tap into our intuition and our inner creativity.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't just mean creativity like go and paint something, but the creativity of coming up with solutions and seeing things in a different way.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh I just think it's we're out of practice, many of us.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're just not uh we're so conditioned to that external experience uh that that seems weird and indulgent and luxurious to go and oh, what are you gonna go do?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like go on a 10-day retreat to Tulum and go turn off and you know, a lot of people look at it in this way.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and I honestly don't think you need to go and spend any time outside of your normal environment to do any of this.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the beauty of this inner work is that you have everything you need, which is just you.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, Chrissa, you would you'd fit into a category of people that we that we talk to on our podcast fairly regularly, and we we kind of have a slang term from which is personal effectiveness superheroes.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: So just to give you a tiny bit of background on this thing, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Whereby we um at Billion Minds, a lot of what we built as an organization was centered around uh observing people in the wild, right?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And observing how people go about their work, how they go about their lives, um, and how effective are they on a on a day-to-day basis.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And what we found is probably not surprising to most people, which is you got about kind of got a 90-10 split.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So whereby you got about 90% of people who are just kind of struggling to get by, and then you got about 10% of people who have done a lot of this work and really uh have really kind of figured figured themselves out better, and figured out what that engine is inside them, figured out how to tune it, figured out how to uh to make it work for them really well.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's great that we have those people, a lot of those people on the on the podcast.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I will tell you that some of the feedback that we get is like, yeah, that's awesome, but they've got it together in a way that I can never get it together.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that is because they don't see they don't see it the sausage being made, if you want to know if you know what it means, right?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: They don't they don't see the before, they only they only see the after.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess my question for you was, you know, that it sounds like uh from the earlier on in the discussion that you were you were not always as together as you are now.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um was there was there a was there a time in the past that was that was different?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: And can you share a little bit more about that period?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, yes.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: The I love that metaphor too.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: The sausage is gross, but it's true.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's a mess, and and and that mess can turn into something really awesomely tasty uh later on.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I you know I was not to go, I mean, we'll we'll go way back, but won't go too deep.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's put it that way.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was uh abandoned when I was three years old and so orphaned in Korea and adopted from there into a family here in the United States.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: I came over when I was three years old, um, spoke no English, knew nothing of my new life that I was being tossed into, and um experienced or suffered from a ton of trauma because of that, although I didn't know it.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: So at the time, uh, and I alluded to this earlier, is that externally I had this well put together persona, you know, I'm achieving things and I'm uh top of my class and I'm uh a cheerleader and you know, doing doing all sorts of things that look like I've got my shit together, um, but inside was a complete mess and suffered in many, many ways from that from an early age, how it blossomed um as suffering in my older age is that uh well, all of it I would say was suffering in this state of avoidance trauma.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I I went into that uh because really we can choose typically one of three modes of fight, flight, or freeze.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I was really in that frozen state, completely frozen.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and my my parents, you know, said this even, even though, again, they didn't realize why I acted this way.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: But when I came off the plane at JFK, and I was among, you know, there's dozens of other adoptees that were, you know, all flown over.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they were picking me up there, meeting me for for the first time.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they said that the it was like cacophonous screams and cries of all these kids coming off the plane and they're wailing and crying, and kids are rolling around on the ground, you know, in in a very, you know, to for us to look at that and see, wow, that that child is suffering and they're in a having a traumatic experience.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but they said that I was just walking calmly through the the concourse, quiet, not you know, crying, just calmly walking through.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and forever that was that story was told in front of me, to me.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: It it just became part of my story that that that was this lauded kind of um attribute that I was calm, not crying, not a mess, not you know, rolling around.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't one of those kids rolling around on the ground.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: And oh, she was she was so calm and happy.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: But what I was was frozen in fear and just doing what I could to get through uh this situation.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was the path that my nervous system took.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that stayed with me for so long.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's still with me, right?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's still this response that I go to in certain situations.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: But what I've learned over time is that uh one, I had to learn that that was my default and uh had to change behaviors that I utilize to get out of that state.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: So um I turned to alcohol really early in my life to get out of that state because alcohol will quickly kick you out of that frozen mode.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: You're no longer this scared, anxious person anymore.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, life of the party, and can let loose and let go and free the nervous system.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, that was my my go-to uh for many, many years.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: And uh after learning that, oh, that's how I operate, and then I also then use these things, alcohol included, to um be that band-aid, if you will, or that that solve that that um partial solution to just the day.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um once I realized that, then I could go into that deeper part of myself to really understand, well, well, what is it?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Why am I frozen?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Why, you know, why why do I need uh this?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't that I needed alcohol to get through the day or needed it to even get on stage.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been a public speaker for uh almost 20 years, and and it wasn't that level of need of like, oh, I'm not gonna be able to go up there if I don't have a drink.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Not like that, but um, turned to it enough to just start far as far as a general social anxiety at the beginning.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then it just became habit, uh what I would say, you know, a uh a habit that wasn't productive for me in any way or wasn't positive in any way, and was was keeping me away from this inner, this place, this messiness that I wasn't ready to look at at the time.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, so that changed um to where, you know, well, I've I'm ready to look at the messiness.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: That uh examination has been decades long.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the change in my behaviors, you know, over time or uh have had different time frames, let's put it that way.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: But um the examination is never-ending.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not something that you stop.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I made the mistake in my early 30s after I had gone through this really intensive healing period uh where uh I thought I was healed.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hallelujah, I'm healed.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and I I just um let go of those of many of the practices, many of the uh just the the the this desire to push towards on dis more discovery, more healing, more on uh more uh releasing.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a mistake because then I spent many years where I you know I was I was I would say uh benefiting from or I was uh getting to experience the fruits of all that healing work, the healing work that led me to my beautiful husband, that led me to um, you know, my professional career and and and success in those places.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, so I was experiencing the fruits of that labor and I was just kicking back and going, okay, great, I made it.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but I hadn't, and I was still suffering and still not um dealing with a lot of those issues.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so I see the making of the sausage being a lifelong pursuit.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: There is always room to grow, to learn, to perfect, or not to perfect.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want people to think again it's it's about even any um end place, like perfection is not an end place.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: It is a um, I'm going to make do these tweaks that are going to create a change that is a different thing.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then I get to sit with that different thing to see is this better.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's not, then we tweak again and we tweak, you know, tweak the recipe to use your um metaphor and really drag that home.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, we get to tweak that all throughout our life.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so that that to me is something now I'm almost 50, have learned, oh, okay, we we don't ever stop.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: We we get to really experience this beautiful unfolding that uh we will invite uh other practices into, other people into, other experiences into, and other than experiences of ourselves over the course of that time.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so yeah, I would say I appear uh different, certainly uh today than I do from my very scared, you know, being on stage as a senior in high school, uh choosing to be a public speaker, but being scared out of my wits in doing it.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, that's uh that's transformed.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I run onto stages now, I love it.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: But there's other things that are still um that are still works in progress, and I'm massively a work in progress still.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I I yeah, I really encourage people to just start where they are and um and and then never stop.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: The Way Too Busy podcast is brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are you one of over a billion people who works out of the office at least one day every week?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: If so, you probably want the freedom that working from anywhere affords, but you also want the same opportunities your in-office colleagues get.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: It turns out that to do really great work out of the office that your colleagues and leaders will truly value, you need a specific set of skills.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds can help you develop those in just ten minutes a day, using our revolutionary platform that combines experiential learning with behavioral science.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Way too busy listeners can get started right now for free in just three minutes.
• 40:44
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• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Helping everyone do great work from anywhere.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's very interesting, Chris.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: One of the uh one of the things that we have definitely observed about this 10% is that while other people often think of them as the finished article, that 10% know that they're all a work in progress.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and that that mindset is obviously critical in order to be able to continuously improve yourself as an individual.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm gonna I'm gonna shift on.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: We could talk about this piece forever, but uh but what I want to do is now kind of talk just a little bit about how the world of work is changing with so many people, so much happening now outside of a traditional office setting.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: You were talking earlier on about um when you were first getting into the sort of health and wellness in a in a corporate setting, how different it was, and you were discussing how uh in the dot-com era uh these offices were being you know built to kind of like take care of everybody's need and and where you would live at the office.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, now of course many of us are are also living at the office, but we're doing it in a very different way because our office is our home, or our office is our uh is the coffee shop or whatever it happened to be.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that that's that's your world as well now.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're uh the headquarters of your company is not where you're physically located.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I wonder if you could um share with me a little bit some of the practical stuff that you do and what you've discovered about yourself um in terms of where you do your best work, when you do your best work, and how you've tweaked your environment in order to be able to do really good work when you're not in a traditional office setting.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's uh one of those things I never really explored because I've been doing it for so long.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: I um, you know, having started out, you know, I had a job, my first professional career job was in an office, and that was only about a year, year and a half.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then I became an entrepreneur.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I worked from anywhere at that point, like many entrepreneurs do, right?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: And um, when I went to work for constant contact, uh, I was with them for eight years, but I was a remote employee.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I was, although I had an office there, I rarely was there.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: I was always working from either home or from the road.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I've just I've been in this environment for so long that I it everything is just natural for me.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: I just naturally am motivated um to do my work because I've just been doing it this way for so long.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as I think about, you know, well, what did I do to make this success or to make this work for me?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one thing was um not uh set, you know, get all the setup and having all your every hardware and all the things you need and having the right stuff there so you don't have to leave and go use some printer somewhere else.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, all that stuff, very basic.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I think one of the things that I had to learn how to do was turn off the work.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's probably pretty common for a lot of remote workers, especially at the beginning, is that you are working from home.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: And for some people, I don't know for me if it was guilt, but I I know because I've talked to people before that it is guilt for them.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's like they feel like, oh, yeah, I'm in my pajamas and I can have, you know, just do whatever I want and go walk the dog.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so they feel like they're not working as much.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then there comes the sense of guilt where I'm not giving as much to my team or my company.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so therefore, I'm never going to turn off.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I will just have this machine on and be available at all moments of the day.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, that can be exacerbated by a culture that promotes that and supports that kind of um that kind of tenor.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: I had a a boss once who um was really into the, you know, the showing up first, leaving last kind of mentality.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: And uh uh to me, I I didn't mean for this to be a test once, but I um had had a baby, and so I was up at crazy random times of the night um nursing and and being awake.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so something came into my head work-wise.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: I popped her uh an email and she answered me.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, it was like three in the morning, and I was like, wow, oh my gosh, this woman is crazy, and she's really living it, she's really living that mantra.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh for me, I I needed to learn how to do that now, and you know, I am a mom and I've worked from home for so long.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: We homeschool.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um we're we're here a lot together, and so I needed to be uh able to figure out what is that balance that I can um have time for them.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not always attached and tied to my screen or my screens.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so one of them is that is that balance giving time back to my family when they're there, not seeing my son coming into my office as an interruption, but as a delightful break.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, oh awesome, great, you're here.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, show him what I'm working on, look at what he's working on.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's usually then, you know, just a few minutes and then he goes off and does his thing.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for a time I looked at that as like an interruption, like, oh, you know, I'm in the middle of something.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, unless I was doing something like this where I'm recording a podcast, you know, all of you know, I can take those kinds of interruptions and I welcome them.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I also take very specific kinds of breaks of where um if things are, and this is not just in my work day, but just in life, if I'm not feeling that flow.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and for those who are unfamiliar with flow, it's where things are just working, it's the best way to put it, probably.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's just things are um uh just lined up.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: They're all okay, this thing naturally leads to that thing, and oh, ideas come very easily, and um maybe it's to the point of where it feels like magic of where like are you thinking about someone and then they call you this kind of flow state of where you're really tapped in to both yourself and then therefore tapped into your environment.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, some people call it in the zone, but it's the same, it's the same kind of exactly, exactly, and you're in that place of of where you really feels like magic.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I operate as much as I can from that place and work on being in that place as much as possible, but sometimes you're not, sometimes you're just knocked out of that place, and when I recognize that that's happening, I was like, ah God, all these things are going wrong, or you know, whatever it might be, you know, it could be just um a technology signal, or it could be a communication signal with somebody else, it could be a signal of just uh you feel stuck in something.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's just not you're just not thinking as clearly or as um flowy as you normally are.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: And in those moments, I will just turn everything off and go and sit.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: For me, I meditate.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's necessarily the path for everybody, but I'll go and just close my eyes, sit with myself.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: I have a few different practices that I'll do and just, you know, whether I'm sitting or laying down and just turn off.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: I turn myself off, uh, really, and and close out all of this other external stimuli and tap back in, because that's really what the cause of that out of flow or out of the zone is, is that I'm out of sync or out of alignment within.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: So going back and getting into that alignment.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, you there's so many ways that people can get into that alignment.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: It might be that you go take a walk, or that you actually, you know, do um maybe you just do something you love, like pick up your guitar and just start playing, or um, whatever it might be.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I know somebody who like does crazy, she just does a crazy dance party if she's in that space and she'll just crank, turn on the music that she loves, and she just goes wild dancing.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: So whatever practice uh works best for you, that I think that that is extremely important to just get out of that space of whatever it is that is not working um well, flowing well, and then for whatever time frame for me, it it's you know, it's usually like five, 10 minutes.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's not gonna kill your day to take five, 10 minutes to just go and get um get realigned, if you will, and then come back.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something that I um have learned to do and also really appreciate in my day.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: But it does take that shift of mindset because at first it feels like you're oh man, I'm I'm I'm not working, and I then the guilt and all these feelings come flooding through.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, you know, if you're not working productively, you're also not working.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: Really.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that's a that's a very important thing that we uh we work with people a lot on, right?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you think about productivity as something that you're doing in the moment, uh then always you're gonna be like, oh man, I've got to push through this.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to uh I've got I'm not feeling it right now, but I've got to push through because I should be working hard in this exact moment.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can shift that mindset more to uh what does it take for me to be effective sustainably over a period of time, uh, then suddenly the things like breaks and various other things make sense because as um you know Ariana Huffington once quoted, and we like to use this quite a bit, right?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: The human operating system downtime is a feature, not a bug, right?
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is a it's a very important thing to understand, right?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: We need downtime, whether it's five minutes at a certain period of time, whether it's an hour at a certain period of time, whether it's a week at a certain period of time.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: We need that in order to be sustainably effective over time.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: All right, got one last question for you.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we've looked a lot inside um the you know what we need to do as individuals, which I think is great, and you've talked about the importance of being able to understand that, understand that about yourself.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: But there is a role for the organizations in which in which we work, and this world of work has changed dramatically.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you think organizations need to be focusing on in order to be able to allow to get the best out of their employees at a time when many of the employees are not in a traditional office setting?
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't have the you don't have the the free sodas and you don't have the you know the massage therapist coming and rubbing your back in the office while you're working.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: What can you what should they be doing and focusing on with a distributed workforce in order to be able to give those employees the support that they need?
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's uh it can be a challenge.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've been that either employee or entrepreneur in that place, and I've also managed teams that are those people.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it can, it's it's so different when you're on the other side of the of the table to you know, what what can I do for them uh that is that's nourishing for them, that is um uh motivating for them because there's uh bot, you know, you have you have things that you need to accomplish, right?
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: As a company, as an organization.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so there it really, I think uh needs to be looked at in that way that it is creating those win-win situations, right?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just okay, we're gonna give them this um, you know, little wellness program, or we're gonna talk about mental health um during mental health, wellness, you know, awareness month, or um, you know, it's not those little um, like we talked about earlier, band-aids.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's about actually as a culture uh being able to see people holistically and and understanding that that you are working with people, not uh cogs, right?
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: That you're working with people who are holistic beings.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then employing listening skills, right?
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: We all probably need that more than anything, more than some therapy or uh uh you know, solution or or a program.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's like just can I have someone listen to who I am, what I am, what I need.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then that often is um overlooked uh by a lot of uh top-down programmatic initiatives, right?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: We've got, oh, okay, we want to instigate um this, we want to take care of our employees.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: So let's put a team of experts together that put this thing together, and then that goes out to and down into employees without ever talking to and listening to what employees actually want, need, or would be valuable to them.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: Really listening to people and learning from them and what their needs are, and then taking, you know, being that authority, authoritative figure in the sense of I look at it like a parent and a child.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying employees are children.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying that as a company uh who has a mission and who has a set of um their own values that they've created, and then they're inviting other humans to come in and work with them, that they're the authority in which they're shaping the the culture, the product that they want to put out and the mission that they're putting out to serve others.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, in that sense, acting as that the captain of the ship, you know, to be like, this is this is yes, we've listened to you, we've learned from you, and now here's what we're gonna do, and being very uh, you know, authoritative about that, of saying, you know, we've got this, this, and this for y'all to choose from.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: And not that that here you go, and that's it, it's never gonna change, but here are these things that we are putting forth rather than always being in this mode of like of uh letting everybody else dictate what you should do.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because honestly, when an employee is in a state of either professional crisis, maybe it's that type of existential crisis, so I don't know where I want to go with my career, or I don't know how to be productive in this kind of environment, working from home, working with a distributed team, um, or they're having issues with technology because it maybe triggers them in some way.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when they're the ones having the issues, they're not necessarily the ones that are gonna have the answers to those and the solutions to those problems.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: So an employer then needs to at one point step up and say, okay, we've got this.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: These are, you know, we've got you, and we're here to take care of those issues and then get the feedback.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: We don't find out from them, you know, is it working, is it not?
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: What can what else can we do?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so in the end, an employer uh needs to provide some uh solutions.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: And there's so many things out there.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what you're doing at with Billion Minds is an incredible example of that, of and just from what I've talked to you about um in the short time I've known you, of all the listening you've done to talk to um people who are working in a remote environment and figuring out what is it that um what are your challenges?
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: What are you facing?
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: What is it that you need and really digging in?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: I remember when you we had that conversation, you were saying how often people will start a certain way, but then you ask one question, it just tips them over into this place of sometimes tears or sometimes, you know, a real uh really getting to the heart of what it is that people uh need.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that you've done that and and then created something that you know employers can actually use uh to help help their employees.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and when I say help their employees, it's like it now it's helping them too, right?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and that's the thing that I think some employers also need to do when it comes to, you know, it's isn't just something that uh we're investing in, and now we've got to go and you know, um, we've got to justify this spend because it's an employee program.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it's not something you're doing for them, you're doing it for the organization.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so, you know, that kind of goes back to the earlier mindset stuff of also whoever those decision makers are, the key stakeholders, seeing themselves as in need of these programs, these initiatives, these whatever help that they uh could get and glean from these things as well.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: I land a ton, I know our audience will have done too.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you again.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's my pleasure.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: The Way Too Busy podcast was presented and produced by me, Matt Neal, and was brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to get in touch with us, tweet us at Rising Billion or email us at WayTooBusy at BillionMinds.com.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds, creating practical tools for our way too busy lives.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you're enjoying the Way Too Busy podcast, please consider leaving us a rating and review on iTunes so that others can find us as well.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.