Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / FLOODGATES OPEN: CLANCY CHATROOM MOM CALLS SON, 2, “ANTICHRIST,” KILLS HIM?

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FLOODGATES OPEN: CLANCY CHATROOM MOM CALLS SON, 2, “ANTICHRIST,” KILLS HIM? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Tonight, the floodgates are open. A Clancy chatroom mom, after
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: being heavily invested in the Lindsay Clancy trial, in and
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: out of Clancy chatrooms day and night, day and night,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: suddenly calls her little boy Barrett, just two years old,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: the Antichrist and hangs him dead. now claiming that she too,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: like Lindsay Clancy, was in a psychotic break.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Well, here we go. Good evening.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. So-called loving mom, Lindsay Clancy.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Twice they've sent back notes to the judge saying, we're deadlocked.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: We cannot come up with a verdict for you. We
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: need a verdict. There's no new evidence, okay? There's no
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: new defense.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: You've heard everything.
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: At this point, I'm going to declare that the jury
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: is deadlocked, and I'm going to declare a mistrial. You
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: had 11 jurors that didn't necessarily believe your case.
• 1:15
  Speaker 5: What do you say to those people who felt that
• 1:16
  Speaker 5: the whole prosecution was insensitive?
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: Was what?
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Insensitive.
• 1:20
  Speaker 6: Insensitive?
• 1:22
  Speaker 7: Insensitive is killing three children. Insensitive is ignoring those facts.
• 1:27
  Speaker 7: We have an obligation to stand up for those people
• 1:30
  Speaker 7: and seek justice and make sure the defendant gets justice
• 1:32
  Speaker 7: and make sure they get justice. So if people can't
• 1:35
  Speaker 7: understand that, I don't know how I can answer that question.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Mistrial. And not only that, the defense attorney, Reddington, attacks
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: the holdout, Gerard.
• 1:47
  Speaker 8: They know that they were robbed by one man for
• 1:51
  Speaker 8: whatever his agenda was, who stole seven weeks of of
• 1:58
  Speaker 8: the life of these other jurors that were so attentive,
• 2:02
  Speaker 8: so beautiful, so wonderful. And listen to this evidence. And
• 2:07
  Speaker 8: you can see how defeated they were sitting there. And
• 2:10
  Speaker 8: I got a funny feeling that they would have gone
• 2:12
  Speaker 8: on for another week if they had to.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: From our friends at East Idaho News and WBZ, the
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: floodgates now open. To Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: now we have two-year-old Barrett hung in the home, I
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: believe cut down by a neighbor who tried to attempt
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: life-saving measures, and mom upstairs in the tub with superficial
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: cuts on her legs and arms.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: What happened?
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: And was this mom, 40-year-old Corey Walsh, who is now saying,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I was not guilty by reason of insanity, I had
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: a psychotic break. Is it true she was, quote, heavily
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: invested in and the outcome of the Lindsay Clancy triple
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: murder trial.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: You know, Nancy, starting right there, this woman was not
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: just heavily invested in the trial of Lindsay Clancy. She
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: was online constantly on message boards, commenting about the Lindsay
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: Clancy trial. Her son, you mentioned a neighbor had to
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: come in and cut the child down from a basement room.
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: where Barrett was allegedly found hanging, this little two-year-old, and
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: is cut down by a 17-year-old neighbor, tries to get help.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Life-saving measures are attempted, but sadly, the two-year-old does not survive. Meanwhile, mom, Kowalsch,
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: is upstairs in the bathtub, and we're talking superficial wounds
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: to the wrists and thighs.
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: That's it.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: This goes down in a residential area of Frankfurt, Illinois,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: extremely low crime rate.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall, I've got so much to cover.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: With Lindsay Clancy, including her lawyer attacking the holdout juror.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: If his name ever leaks, woe unto him. That is
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: not what our system is about. And just this morning,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: he stands by his attacks on the juror and begs
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Trump for a pardon.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 4:23
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Before I get into all of that, Dr. Bethany Marshall
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: with us, renowned psychoanalyst. You can see her on Bravo,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: on Hulu, on Peacock. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Hit podcast on the couch with Dr.
• 4:35
  Speaker 8: Bethany.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Bethany, copycat, you predicted this was going to happen and
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: it wasn't even 72 hours after the mistrial and it did.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: And that's the one we know about.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: You know, Nancy, you're right.
• 4:50
  Speaker 9: That's the one we know about. And what I would
• 4:52
  Speaker 9: be interested in with this woman in terms of a
• 4:54
  Speaker 9: forensic evaluation was what was the nature of her preoccupation
• 4:59
  Speaker 9: with the Clancy trial? What were all those messages she
• 5:03
  Speaker 9: was putting out online? She was communicating with multiple people
• 5:07
  Speaker 9: through multiple social media channels. And was she pro-Lindsay Clancy?
• 5:13
  Speaker 9: Was she against Lindsay Clancy? Did she feel Lindsay Clancy
• 5:16
  Speaker 9: was guilty? Also, What was her relationship with the two-year-old?
• 5:21
  Speaker 9: His name was Bear. That was her nickname for him.
• 5:25
  Speaker 9: And how did she treat this little boy? Did she
• 5:27
  Speaker 9: have empathy for him?
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: Hold on.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Dr. Bethany, I think I know the nature of Corrie
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Walsh's relationship with her two-year-old son, Barrett, because she called
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: him the Antichrist and the Devil. And she is admitting
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: that she hung him in a, quote, psychotic break. Now,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: how did she know how to say I was in
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: a psychotic break? Of course, she is not guilty until
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: proven innocent. But I'd like to just point out, you know,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: hold on, Dr. Bethany. Mark Astor is with us, joining
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: us out of Boca Raton, veteran criminal defense attorney Astor
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Simovich Law Firm and star of a hit podcast, The
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Journey by Mark Astor. If this is not a similar transaction,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know what is. A similar transaction in that
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: two moms, white females, roughly same age, young children, kills
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: a son in the home, then has superficial cuts on
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: her wrist and in Corey Walsh's case, on her legs
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: as well. I guess she's going to tell us she
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: was trying to slice her femoral artery. That said, mom
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: at the home after failed suicide attempt, heavily invested in
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: the Lindsay Clancy case, obsessed with it, living in Clancy
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: chat rooms, and now Barrett is dead.
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: Nancy, I agree with you. I think there's definitely some similarities,
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: but this is not the first mother who has killed
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: a child or killed children. There's a whole history of
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: mothers killing their children. I think what is similar is
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: the idea that that this is, quote, caused by a
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: psychotic episode. And also, now we're going to use postpartum
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: depression as part of the insanity defense. And I think
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: this is not going to be the last case where
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: we see a mother who killed a child or children.
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: And it's not going to be the last case now
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: where we see somebody who claims insanity because of some
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: type of postpartum depression. That's the similarity. But we are
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: going to a new world where behavioral health issues are
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: now sort of becoming part and parcel of criminal defense work.
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: So we'll have to see what happens with this case.
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: But I understand where you're coming from. And her obsession with, obviously,
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: the Lindsay Clancy case is concerning. But maybe that goes
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: to her.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: State of mind, too.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: You're really calm. You're just casually predicting that, well, it's
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: not the first and it won't be the last over
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: my cold, dead body. Dr.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Bethany, the comparisons are overwhelming.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: And you predicted it, that there would be many copycat
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: cases after the Lindsay Clancy case.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: If there was an NGBRI. And here you go.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: The similarities, overwhelming superficial cuts on the wrist and the
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: femoral artery.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Please stop.
• 8:28
  Speaker 9: I'm thinking might have happened.
• 8:30
  Speaker 10: And what we may see more of are murder-suicide cases
• 8:35
  Speaker 10: where the mother is wanting to get rid of the
• 8:37
  Speaker 10: child because the child is sort of disadvantageous to her
• 8:40
  Speaker 10: in some way.
• 8:41
  Speaker 9: Maybe she's having an affair, has another lover.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: There is no suicide. There was no suicide.
• 8:47
  Speaker 9: Well, what I was going to say.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Is back playing dominoes at Tewksbury mental facility. And this
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: mom is getting three hots in a cot also at
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: a mental facility claiming psychotic break. If this is the
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Antichrist and this is the devil, then who told her
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: to kill him?
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: The other devil? Hmm.
• 9:08
  Speaker 9: Well, you know, Nancy, people malinger psychiatric illnesses all the
• 9:12
  Speaker 9: time to justify their crimes.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: I was asleep.
• 9:15
  Speaker 9: I was in a psychotic state.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: I was in a fugue.
• 9:19
  Speaker 9: I woke up in the middle of the night and
• 9:20
  Speaker 9: I was sleepwalking. And I'm always, you know, a little
• 9:23
  Speaker 9: suspicious when an attorney comes up with the idea like
• 9:27
  Speaker 9: a brief psychotic episode, but it hasn't come from any
• 9:30
  Speaker 9: kind of professional.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: You're seeing the home where Lindsay Clancy reportedly... tried to
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: kill herself. There is blood there you see along the
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: outer windowsill suggesting she lowered herself down and then did
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: a much shorter jump.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: She is paralyzed. That is true.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Shannon Hill joining us, star of Shannon Hill News, in
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the courtroom during the Clancy case. I'd like you to
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: hear what Kevin, in addition to attacking the holdout juror,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: what Kevin Reddington, the defense attorney, I'm really surprised he
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: was not held in contempt by the judge, that said,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: what he blurted out on GMA just a few hours ago.
• 10:14
  Speaker 11: You said you crushed the prosecution. in court, but the
• 10:17
  Speaker 11: final decision was a mistrial decision. That's bravado. That's after
• 10:22
  Speaker 11: the fact. The emotions run high. We just finished a six,
• 10:27
  Speaker 11: seven-week trial.
• 10:29
  Speaker 9: You regret saying it?
• 10:31
  Speaker 11: No, I don't regret saying it at all. I think
• 10:33
  Speaker 11: the defense was very strong. I'd like to say that
• 10:37
  Speaker 11: perhaps Donald Trump, who felt compelled to speak out about
• 10:40
  Speaker 11: this case, may very well, Mr. President, I would hope
• 10:43
  Speaker 11: that you would consider this young lady type of person
• 10:48
  Speaker 11: she is, what she's been through, and consider a pardon.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at GMA and Shannon Hill. While
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: he's with GMA, he doubles down on his attack on
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: the juror.
• 11:05
  Speaker 11: Well, was it a mistake to actually reveal the gender
• 11:08
  Speaker 11: of the juror? I know during the course of the
• 11:11
  Speaker 11: SJC argument, I believe that the gender of the individual
• 11:14
  Speaker 11: was revealed, and then it just followed through after that.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: And also Shannon, he is standing by his attack on
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: the holdout juror.
• 11:25
  Speaker 7: Listen.
• 11:25
  Speaker 8: Going on for another week if they had to. So
• 11:28
  Speaker 8: I hope that guy can sleep well at night. I
• 11:32
  Speaker 8: know that they were robbed by one man for whatever
• 11:37
  Speaker 8: his agenda was, who stole seven weeks of the life
• 11:43
  Speaker 8: of these other jurors that were so attentive So beautiful.
• 11:48
  Speaker 8: Saw it. Wonderful. And listen to this evidence. And you
• 11:52
  Speaker 8: can see how defeated they were sitting there. And I
• 11:56
  Speaker 8: got a funny feeling that they would have gone on
• 11:57
  Speaker 8: for another week if they had. So I hope that
• 12:00
  Speaker 8: guy can sleep well at night.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: That's from our friends at East Idaho News and WBZ.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: If he... Does not need to be held in contempt.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: I've never seen a lawyer that deserved it. That also
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: from GMA.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, Shannon Hill, what's going on?
• 12:18
  Speaker 5: Nancy, in the courtroom, attorney Kevin Reddington revealed that the
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: one juror that was standing out on this not guilty
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: plea was a male. And typically we don't hear the
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: identity of the juror. We don't hear anything about the
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: jury members because it's supposed to be concealed. So he
• 12:36
  Speaker 5: did reveal that and people are now kind of talking
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: about how that shouldn't have been information that was privy
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: to the public. He's also referring to saying that he
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: crushed the prosecution as courtroom bravado. As we know, Attorney
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: Kevin Reddington will act fast on all of this. He
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: filed a motion when it was leading up to a
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: mistrial and the judge declared a mistrial. Attorney Kevin Reddington
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: fought to file a motion and did it within an hour.
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: So what we do.
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: Know is that attorney Kevin Reddington will act fast for
• 13:06
  Speaker 5: his client. There is a hearing on September 29th that
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: will determine where this case will continue.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, Professor of Forensics,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University. And he is a star of a
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: YouTube hit, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I want to.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Address, which is very disturbing to, on many, many levels.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Immediately following the deadlock and Reddington's attack on the holdout Gerard,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: immediately after that, this mom, Corey Walsh, 40 years old,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: three children, is in chat rooms talking about the Lindsay
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Clancy case, pro-Lindsay Clancy, obviously identifying with a mom who
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: kills her three children. She's in those chat rooms, according
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: to reports, right up until she, by her own admission,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: hangs her two-year-old son, Barrett. Also similar to the deaths
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: of Clancy's three children, Dawson, Cora, and Callum. Explain what
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: this two-year-old child endured.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: I'll let you say her name. I'm not saying it.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: I'll say his.
• 14:41
  Speaker 6: Barrett also went by Bear. This is what they saw.
• 14:44
  Speaker 6: So when the finder went into that basement area where
• 14:48
  Speaker 6: that child is down there, away from the mother, he's
• 14:53
  Speaker 6: suspended from the rafter. She used some kind of ligature.
• 14:58
  Speaker 6: We're not really sure yet, but what I do know
• 15:01
  Speaker 6: is that, Nancy, his feet, his little feet were suspended
• 15:04
  Speaker 6: up off of the floor. So this is not what
• 15:06
  Speaker 6: we refer to as kind of a passive hanging where
• 15:10
  Speaker 6: an individual kind of slumps down into a ligature. He's
• 15:13
  Speaker 6: literally suspended up in this air with his feet not
• 15:17
  Speaker 6: touching the floor. He cannot support himself in any way
• 15:20
  Speaker 6: to kind of wiggle out of this. And I would
• 15:23
  Speaker 6: imagine his hands were probably thrown up at some point
• 15:25
  Speaker 6: in time. He's trying to defeat this ligature that is
• 15:28
  Speaker 6: wrapped around his neck. And here's another clue that I
• 15:31
  Speaker 6: have noticed is that when Bayer was taken to the
• 15:35
  Speaker 6: emergency room and they were trying to do heroic measures
• 15:40
  Speaker 6: on him there, the notes and the court documents that
• 15:43
  Speaker 6: were released actually stated that the findings at the emergency
• 15:48
  Speaker 6: room or at the hospital were consistent with what the
• 15:51
  Speaker 6: finder found. That is the teenager that came over. And
• 15:55
  Speaker 6: you know what those were? I can tell you right now.
• 15:58
  Speaker 6: This child probably had what's referred to as a ligature furrow,
• 16:02
  Speaker 6: which would have run deep into the neck. It would
• 16:05
  Speaker 6: have traveled upward behind the ears, okay? And it comes
• 16:10
  Speaker 6: to an apex on the back. This is what we
• 16:12
  Speaker 6: refer to as tenting feature, T-E-N-T-I-N-G. Not like tent on
• 16:18
  Speaker 6: a car, but like a pup tent. So he's being
• 16:21
  Speaker 6: suspended by this, and this is digging into his neck
• 16:24
  Speaker 6: the entire time, He is fighting for his life. Let
• 16:27
  Speaker 6: me tell you what else happened. More than likely, when
• 16:29
  Speaker 6: they do the examination on this precious little angel, they're
• 16:33
  Speaker 6: going to find petechiae in his eyes, actually, maybe even
• 16:38
  Speaker 6: in his mouth, maybe on the surface of his lungs
• 16:40
  Speaker 6: because he is fighting for his life. He's struggling for breath.
• 16:43
  Speaker 6: All the while, she is up in a bathtub with
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: a knife and, I don't know, crying for help. I
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: have no idea. what the nature of this is. All
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: I know is superficial injuries to her, but fatal injuries
• 16:56
  Speaker 6: to this baby down in the basement.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, hearing Joe Scott Morgan describing
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: what happened to Bear, and again, the mother in that case,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Corey Walsh, admits she killed Hong Bear, just two years old,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: but said she was in a psychotic break at the time.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: She was treated at a local hospital for three days,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: then transferred to the Will County Adult Detention Facility, where
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: she is being held without bond. In both cases, Clancy
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: and Corey Walsh, who is innocent until proven guilty, the
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: husband was gone, and Clancy currently orchestrated to have the
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: husband gone on an errand. Superficial cuts to the wrist,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: the murder in the home of the child, psychotic break claimed,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: and curious, or let me rephrase, probative, this mom, Corey Walsh,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: was in chat rooms defending and talking about Clancy right
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: up until the time that she hangs her son. That
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: has to mean something, Dr.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Bethany. It does mean something.
• 18:13
  Speaker 9: First of all, she's well enough to care for four children.
• 18:16
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 18:17
  Speaker 9: So but then later she says she's psychotic. That doesn't
• 18:20
  Speaker 9: go together. She's organized enough to get onto all these
• 18:24
  Speaker 9: chat rooms and interact with people.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: That does not.
• 18:27
  Speaker 9: Suggest psychosis to me. What we really need to know
• 18:30
  Speaker 9: is what was her relationship with this little boy bear.
• 18:33
  Speaker 9: And I have mothers like this in my practice. Sometimes
• 18:35
  Speaker 9: they come in and they're just not bonded with their kids.
• 18:38
  Speaker 9: They hate their kids. They have sadistic thoughts towards the kids.
• 18:42
  Speaker 9: They resent the needs of the child. And often what
• 18:45
  Speaker 9: we see in abusive families, and I don't know what
• 18:47
  Speaker 9: will come out in this case, is the parent has
• 18:50
  Speaker 9: a hateful preoccupation with one child, but loves the others.
• 18:55
  Speaker 9: You know, it's like there's a split between all good
• 18:57
  Speaker 9: and all bad. Also, I'd want to know, did she
• 19:00
  Speaker 9: have some kind of an ongoing argument with the little
• 19:03
  Speaker 9: boy's father? Because often when mothers commit homicide with their children,
• 19:09
  Speaker 9: what we really see the primary motivation is that they're
• 19:12
  Speaker 9: trying to get back at another spouse after an argument.
• 19:16
  Speaker 9: So we'd have to look at that as well. And
• 19:18
  Speaker 9: then that she was so pro-Lindsey Clancy. And Nancy also,
• 19:23
  Speaker 9: she did it in such a cruel way. More will
• 19:26
  Speaker 9: come out, as Joseph Scott Morgan said. But But did
• 19:29
  Speaker 9: she torture him before she hung him? Did she try
• 19:32
  Speaker 9: to asphyxiate him first so he wouldn't suffer? I mean,
• 19:35
  Speaker 9: how did she want this child to die? And if
• 19:39
  Speaker 9: you're psychotic, it's kind of hard to be that sophisticated
• 19:43
  Speaker 9: to hang a child from a rafter. I mean, you
• 19:47
  Speaker 9: have to be pretty organized psychologically. So this is an
• 19:50
  Speaker 9: organized crime, not a disorganized one, which is what we
• 19:53
  Speaker 9: would see with psychosis.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: To Shannon Hill, joining us, star of Shannon Hill News
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: on Insta. Shanna, the viral videos that are populating online
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: after the Clancy mistrial is very upsetting.
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: Nancy, what we are seeing is a trending video going
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: viral of women reenacting intrusive thoughts that they may have
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: had during postpartum. So they are taking these baby dolls
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: and tossing them down the stairs or knocking these baby
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: dolls heads to the wall as some sort of indicative
• 20:35
  Speaker 5: of what's been being discussed online with postpartum depression and
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: intrusive thoughts. I think what we're seeing is this sort
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: of insensitivity to your child. You have the time to
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: prop up a camera and film yourself dropping a baby
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: doll to somehow be a part of the conversation. but
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: maybe also wanting to get engagement and virality online. It's
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: quite confusing, if I'm honest, to watch this as a
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: mother and as somebody who comments on topics. Something else
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: we're seeing is mother.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Especially, Shannon, in light of the first that we know of,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: copycat murder by a Lindsay Clancy-obsessed mother in Frankfurt, Illinois.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: What about it, Joe Scott Morgan?
• 21:19
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think the similarities between these two mothers is
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: the fact that they chose means in order to take
• 21:28
  Speaker 6: the lives of their own children that are very similar.
• 21:32
  Speaker 6: And what I'm talking about is asphyxial deaths. The reason
• 21:36
  Speaker 6: that this is very similar is that there is a
• 21:39
  Speaker 6: line that runs through asphyxial deaths that makes them different
• 21:42
  Speaker 6: than any other kind of death out there that we
• 21:44
  Speaker 6: investigate because it's very, very personal, Nancy. We're talking about
• 21:48
  Speaker 6: the use of either a ligature, Or we're talking about, say,
• 21:52
  Speaker 6: for instance, if an adult puts their hands around the
• 21:55
  Speaker 6: neck of a child. This is a way where you
• 21:59
  Speaker 6: can see the life literally come out of the individual
• 22:03
  Speaker 6: that you are choking to death. You'll see their face
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: turn colors. You'll see their eyes begin to swell. You'll
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: see the struggle that they're going through. And back to
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: this child in the basement as well. You know, there's
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: a mechanical part to this where this child literally, we've
• 22:20
  Speaker 6: heard the term over the years, strung up as it
• 22:23
  Speaker 6: applies to hanging. The mechanical part of this is bearing
• 22:28
  Speaker 6: witness to this because this child literally, their feet would
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: have been dangling in the air struggling for this. There's
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: a real element of sadism here, Nancy.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: What is the next move? Listen.
• 22:40
  Speaker 7: I do know that one of the questions that are
• 22:42
  Speaker 7: out here right now regarding retrials is I will let
• 22:45
  Speaker 7: you know that there will be no decisions made today
• 22:47
  Speaker 7: regarding that. I'm going to be meeting with our team,
• 22:49
  Speaker 7: and we will address this case further at the appropriate
• 22:52
  Speaker 7: time in the context of an official court proceeding. So
• 22:56
  Speaker 7: you're not getting an answer on that question today.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: From East Idaho News and WBZ, straight out to veteran
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: trial lawyer joining us, Mark Astor. Of course, there's going
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: to be a retrial. There is no way that the
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: state is going to drop this case. If they believe
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: that firmly that this is a triple homicide and that
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Lindsay Clancy formulated a plan which shows intent and premeditation,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: then they've got to go forward. It would be derelict
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: of their duty not to if they truly believe that.
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: I agree with you, Nancy. I think they're going to
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: retry the case. I think the big problem that they
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: had was establishing or even presenting any evidence of premeditation.
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: That was their theory of the case. I mean, we
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: didn't hear a motive until Ms. Sprague, the prosecutor, was
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: sort of 40 minutes into her closing argument and said,
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: this was a mother that just snapped. Well, that may
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: be the case, but where's the evidence to support that?
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: So I think if this case is going to go
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: forward and there's not going to be a resolution, and
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: I know Ms.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Now, I know you're in your glitzy offices down there
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: in Boca Raton at the Astor Simovic law firm. But
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: have you been under a rock in a cave on
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: the other side of the world with no cable? Because
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: apparently the answer is yes. No evidence.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Of planning.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Um, I think I just burst a blood vessel. Dave Mack,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: what's the evidence of planning that was brought on.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: To the jury?
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Nancy, it started with the whole plan of getting her
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: husband out of the house and sending him to the
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: furthest restaurant away to pick up dinner, then planning other
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: stops so.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: He would be gone even longer.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: Then when he calls during the middle of all of that,
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: she calmly answers his questions about what medicine to pick
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: up for the kids. So yeah, there was plenty of
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: planning that kept her husband away so she could carry
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: out her planned murder of her children, alleged murder.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, Shannon Hill, but didn't Lindsay
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Clancy do an Apple map search to figure out just
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: how long she had to murder the children, just how
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: long she could get rid of her husband? And he
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: actually called her. He was gone less than an hour.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: He called her in the middle of it She picks
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: up the phone and seemed normal, tiny bit distracted, but normal.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Correct, Nancy.
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: She did a Google search to see the distance from
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: their home to the 3B restaurant and then to CVS.
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: And that gave her a timeframe. Also, prior to Patrick leaving,
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: she had called the CVS to confirm whether or not
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: they had a Pedialax. And didn't let Patrick know to
• 25:57
  Speaker 5: pick that up until he was almost out the door
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: to kind of make it a sort of last minute
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: errand for him to run, to add some time to
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: that period. So there was definite, I would say, evidence
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: of premeditation and planning this out.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, Shannon. And leading up to it, Dr.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, to further enlighten Mark Astor, she had gone
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: to Cora's pediatrician that morning. And all the nurses saw
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: her and she was completely coherent and interacted with them.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: She then went playing in the park with the children
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: and took pictures and videos of them and sent to
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: her husband and her mother-in-law. Comes home and starts planning
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: around 4 p.m. even calling the CVS to make sure
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: they had it in stock so her husband would not
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: bother her by calling and saying something like, hey, they
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: don't have it.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: What was it?
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Would this substitute do? Would that substitute do? Should I
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: go to Walgreens since CVS doesn't have it? Nothing like that.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Everything was accounted for.
• 27:03
  Speaker 9: Yes, it was. It was methodical, meticulous, Nancy. That really
• 27:07
  Speaker 9: does show a lot of planning. But wait, let's think
• 27:11
  Speaker 9: about what happened after, after she went to the hospital.
• 27:15
  Speaker 9: that was when she first started using the word command
• 27:18
  Speaker 9: hallucination and that other people around her started using that word.
• 27:22
  Speaker 9: And later it was reported that she was well liked
• 27:25
  Speaker 9: at the psychiatric facility. So planning doesn't just happen before
• 27:29
  Speaker 9: a homicide in really, really sophisticated cases. We see the
• 27:34
  Speaker 9: person planning for what they're going to do and say
• 27:38
  Speaker 9: after the homicides, right? So being likable, being connected, being engaged,
• 27:44
  Speaker 9: organizing herself so quickly that she asked for one of
• 27:47
  Speaker 9: the psychiatrist's phones so she could call her husband. So
• 27:51
  Speaker 9: it's pre and post that I think paints a very
• 27:54
  Speaker 9: important clinical picture for me.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Hey, before I get a recap with Mark Astor, I
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: had another similarity that popped to mind as you were speaking, Dr.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: In the previous case, Lindsay Clancy, she looked up, can
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: you treat a sociopath? Did she think one of her
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: children was a sociopath? Because in this case, Corey Walsh
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: from Frankfurt, Illinois, called her two-year-old child Barrett, aka Bear,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: called him the antichrist and the devil.
• 28:32
  Speaker 9: See, to me, that speaks to a rationalization that the
• 28:36
  Speaker 9: person is trying to come to. So, you know, can
• 28:39
  Speaker 9: you treat a sociopath, Mothers who are not bonded to
• 28:43
  Speaker 9: their children or who are hateful to their children, as
• 28:46
  Speaker 9: we've seen in those TikTok videos with the baby dolls,
• 28:50
  Speaker 9: usually they experience their children as being greedy, hateful, extracting
• 28:55
  Speaker 9: things from them, but often that the children have no
• 28:58
  Speaker 9: conscience and they fail to take it into account that
• 29:02
  Speaker 9: when children are little, they want food, they want to
• 29:04
  Speaker 9: be taken places. But to abusive mothers, that's seen as sociopathic,
• 29:09
  Speaker 9: as if the child is callously possessing the mother for
• 29:13
  Speaker 9: its own needs.
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: And that's why in.
• 29:15
  Speaker 9: Abusive cases, we also see parents, you know, putting, locking
• 29:18
  Speaker 9: the refrigerator because they think their children are so greedy,
• 29:21
  Speaker 9: they're going to come out and, you know, eat food
• 29:24
  Speaker 9: in the middle of the night that the child doesn't deserve.
• 29:26
  Speaker 9: So it paints a whole picture of these parents seeing
• 29:30
  Speaker 9: the child as unconditionally bad.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: To Mark Astor, partner at Astor Simovich in Boca Raton
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: and star of The Journey by Mark Astor, Astor, I
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: believe you said something about there's no evidence of premeditation.
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: Well, I think what I said, Nancy, was there's no
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: evidence of motive. I mean, that's the problem. If you're
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: going to prosecute somebody for premeditated first-degree murder, you better
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: have a motive. I mean, I understand what Dr. Bethany
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: is saying. And maybe the prosecutor needs to call her
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: as a witness because I didn't see any evidence in
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: the trial that would have really agreed with what Dr.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: Bethany said. I think they spent most of their time
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: with the experts trying to argue about what Dr. Resnick said.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: And that's my point. I mean, if what Dr. Bethany
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: said is correct, and I'm not disagreeing with her, then
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: we need to have that evidence. Because I think that's
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: why the Commonwealth had such a very difficult time of
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: overcoming their burdens. And let's not forget, in Massachusetts, the
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: burden is entirely on the state. It's not an affirmative defense.
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: It's the state's responsibility to sort of negate the insanity defense.
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: And I think that's why they had a problem doing that.
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: And that's why we had a hung jury.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Mark Astor, if you'd like me to give you a
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: playback of what you actually said.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: I can do that.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: You stated there was no premeditation shown at trial.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: And no motive. You are a veteran lawyer.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: You know the state does not have to prove motive, period.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: And there's plenty of evidence of premeditation. That said, I
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: don't see any world, Mark Astor, in which there is
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: a plea.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Do you?
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: In the real world, do I think they're going to
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: negotiate something? No, because I think Mr. Reddington is adamant
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: that his client is not going to spend the rest
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: of her life in prison. And for what it's worth, Nancy,
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: I think that she probably should. Do I think she will?
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, probably not. And let's not forget, all of
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: this sort of showboating is really done to preserve the
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: record for appeal. I mean, we had the Andrea Yates
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: case where she was convicted, it got reversed, and she
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: ended up being found not guilty by a reason of insanity,
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: and she's been sent to a mental institution. So there
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: is some precedent for all of the things that are
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: going on in this case. And that's what I think
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: the goal is here, to potentially preserve this case for
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: an appeal.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: That's the only one you can think of?
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Andrea Yates?
• 31:54
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: That's really going way back in time to get us similar.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: I'd like to point out Deanna Laney, rock mom, who
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: bludgeoned her children with rocks, killed two, left one permanently
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: brain damaged. She went to a mental facility and got
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: out and is walking free amongst us in eight short years.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, reality check. What happened to Cora, Dawson,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: and Callum? What did they experience beforehand? they were killed.
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: Nancy, here's the reality. These defenseless children actually had these
• 32:32
  Speaker 6: ligatures wrapped around their neck, Nancy. And the life was
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: literally strangled out of them with these elastic cords. And
• 32:41
  Speaker 6: you know, Nancy, one of the things that's quite striking
• 32:44
  Speaker 6: about the nature of this is the fact that what
• 32:48
  Speaker 6: she chose to use as a ligature in this case
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: is not a static thing. It's not like she took
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: a piece of wire or a piece of bailing rope
• 32:58
  Speaker 6: or any kind of other cord. She actually had elasticity
• 33:02
  Speaker 6: with these things. So she would have had to have adjusted,
• 33:05
  Speaker 6: then readjusted, and then readjusted because it doesn't work the
• 33:10
  Speaker 6: same as, say, if you had something that had a
• 33:13
  Speaker 6: bit more tension to it that required much less strength
• 33:19
  Speaker 6: on her part to do it. So there would have
• 33:20
  Speaker 6: been this constant That's one of the reasons that, you know,
• 33:25
  Speaker 6: I used the term sadistic a few moments ago, thinking
• 33:28
  Speaker 6: about the elasticity of these cords and how long it
• 33:31
  Speaker 6: would have taken. This would have taken much longer, say,
• 33:33
  Speaker 6: for instance, if she had just merely used her hands
• 33:37
  Speaker 6: or used some other item other than an elastic cord, Nancy.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything regarding the
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: hanging death of two-year-old Barrett Walsh, dial.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Frankfurt PD 815-469-9434.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Repeat, 815-469-9434. And let us remind you that a retrial
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: of Lindsay Clancy is anticipated, which means the state is
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: starting over rebuilding its case. If you know or think
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: you know anything regarding the murders of Cora, Dawson, and Cowan,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: please dial 781-934-5656. Or, if you know someone suffering from
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: suicidal ideation, dial very simply 9 We remember an American
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: hero trooper, Kyle Young, Vermont State Police, just 28, dead
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: in the line of duty, serving only one year before
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: his death, leaving behind his beautiful, grieving partner, Alyssa, and
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: their two little girls, Cadence and Kinley. American hero trooper,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Kyle Young. Thank you to our guests for being with
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: us tonight, but especially to you for joining us. Nancy Grace,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: signing off. I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: good night, friend.