Latest / California Frontier / 061: The Attack on Mission San Diego: Interview with Richard Carrico (Part 2)

Transcript

061: The Attack on Mission San Diego: Interview with Richard Carrico (Part 2) · California Frontier

• 0:00
  Richard Carrico: All the Kumeyaay, all 18, 000 Kumeyaay, were not involved in the sacking of this mission.
• 0:07
  Richard Carrico: It was a very clan specific sacking, and it was all, it was the villages, the warriors, south of the San Diego River.
• 0:14
  Richard Carrico: So, for years, while people knew about it, people didn't address the differences between the group called the Ipai, which is a northern branch of the Kumeyaay, slightly linguistically different, and the Tipai, south of the San Diego River.
• 0:29
  Richard Carrico: What my research led me to believe was that only the Tipai took part in the sacking.
• 0:35
  Richard Carrico: Because they had the grievances and also it was clan oriented and the clans in San Diego and the alliances go east to west.
• 0:49
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: I'm really pleased to offer part two.
• 0:51
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: I have my conversation with archeologists, Richard Kericho.
• 0:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: In this half of the discussion.
• 0:59
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: We're going to talk about the research that Richard has done.
• 1:03
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: On one of the key events.
• 1:05
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: In the history of the Spanish presence in Alta, California.
• 1:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: Which was the 1775.
• 1:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: Sacking and burning of mission San Diego, they all call up the first mission founded in Alta, California.
• 1:21
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-3: And because of the nature of the events that took place.
• 1:26
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-3: The topics we're going to discuss are fairly mature.
• 1:29
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-3: Involve violence and abuse.
• 1:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-3: And I think that this is an episode that is probably not appropriate for younger listeners.
• 1:40
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-3: So take that as you will.
• 1:44
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: But.
• 1:45
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: For mature listeners.
• 1:47
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: It is really fascinating.
• 1:48
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: And I think you're going to find it very interesting.
• 1:52
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo-2: So without further ado, let's get into the conversation.
• 1:56
  Damian Bacich: So maybe we could transition into, The topic that we talked about, which was the, the sacking, the 1775 sacking of Mission San Diego de Alcala, which, which is a very foundational event in the history of San Diego and the history of California for that matter.
• 2:16
  Damian Bacich: And as you mentioned, we're up against, I guess it's the 249th.
• 2:22
  Damian Bacich: year anniversary of that event.
• 2:24
  Damian Bacich: Next year will be the 250th and it also coincides with
• 2:29
  Richard Carrico: Yep,
• 2:30
  Damian Bacich: arrival of the second ANZA expedition in Alta California, etc.
• 2:35
  Damian Bacich: So you had a very interesting study on that event and I'd love to hear if you could recap what you spoke about at the California Missions Conference and anything else you'd like to talk about along those lines.
• 2:53
  Richard Carrico: sure.
• 2:54
  Richard Carrico: Well, back in.
• 2:56
  Richard Carrico: Let's say 1990 ish, uh, having, we'd closed out the Presidio excavation and I had started, I had done the excavation at Mission San Diego that ultimately got closed down.
• 3:08
  Richard Carrico: It was to build a parish hall and everyone told the Monsignor there in 1989 88 to not build it there because there were probably burials and, and the first and second mission were on, on that site were out there, but he persisted and I got the contract to go do it.
• 3:28
  Richard Carrico: And in doing that, I wanted to really delve more into the mission records and what was going on.
• 3:34
  Richard Carrico: So this was 1988.
• 3:36
  Richard Carrico: The dig was 89.
• 3:37
  Richard Carrico: We dug out there for almost six months and ultimately the tribes closed the excavation down and the hall got built where it should have been built, in a vacant parking lot basically.
• 3:48
  Richard Carrico: But that led me to looking at a lot of records of the time period when that mission was there.
• 3:56
  Richard Carrico: And I was reading about the sacking of the mission and what Bancroft has said about it, H.
• 4:03
  Richard Carrico: H.
• 4:03
  Richard Carrico: Bancroft, what local historians had written over the years.
• 4:07
  Richard Carrico: And I found a lot of inconsistencies and things that just didn't anthropologically make sense to me about it.
• 4:13
  Richard Carrico: So the history, I mean, the dates were right.
• 4:17
  Richard Carrico: The mission was sacked by Kumeyaay people.
• 4:20
  Richard Carrico: Three people were killed, Spanish people.
• 4:22
  Richard Carrico: So the history was accurate, but the anthropology of it, the ethno history or anthropology, wasn't.
• 4:29
  Richard Carrico: So what I came up with and wrote one of my first papers in, um, the Journal of San Diego History, I think it was, in late 90s, was All the Kumeyaay, all 18, 000 Kumeyaay, were not involved in the sacking of this mission.
• 4:50
  Richard Carrico: It was a very clan specific sacking, and it was all, it was the villages, the warriors, south of the San Diego River.
• 4:57
  Richard Carrico: So, for years, while people knew about it, people didn't address the differences between the group called the Ipai, which is a northern branch of the Kumeyaay, slightly linguistically different, and the TIpai, south of the San Diego River.
• 5:12
  Richard Carrico: What my research led me to believe was that only the Tipai took part in the sacking.
• 5:18
  Richard Carrico: Because they had the grievances and also it was clan oriented and the clans in San Diego and the alliances go east to west.
• 5:27
  Richard Carrico: They run along the river and the Tipai clans are different than the Ipai clans and the intermarriage and all that.
• 5:35
  Richard Carrico: So once I, I got into this diary of the commandant of the Presidio in Spanish, he lists the villages.
• 5:43
  Richard Carrico: He tells you every village based on.
• 5:45
  Richard Carrico: torturing people, torturing TIpai, he tells you the villages that took part in it, and he tells you which villages did not.
• 5:52
  Richard Carrico: And this interrogation, kind of like, you know, Abu Ghraibs or something, went on for months and months and months and months.
• 6:00
  Richard Carrico: So I started making a list, At the same time, I was doing a paper on where were the Kumeyaay villages of San Diego County, and I could do a map and put a dot and go, this one sacked the mission, this one didn't.
• 6:12
  Richard Carrico: And when I was done, I stood back and looked at it, and none of them were north of the river, even though they had had rapes, and they had had killings, and they, two women at one of the villages north of the river hanged themselves.
• 6:28
  Richard Carrico: Because they'd been molested by Spanish soldiers.
• 6:31
  Richard Carrico: And so that led to me writing one of the first papers that really got into, here's the villages and not the Native American view necessarily, but here's why they said they did it.
• 6:43
  Richard Carrico: It wasn't a military operation.
• 6:45
  Richard Carrico: It was to kill Father Jaime, Luis Jaime, because they perceived him as a devil.
• 6:51
  Richard Carrico: Somebody who was undermining and undercutting their native religions.
• 6:55
  Richard Carrico: And, yes, they killed two other people at the same time.
• 6:57
  Richard Carrico: But it was really to kill Jaime and destroy that religious center.
• 7:04
  Richard Carrico: Wasn't much talked about in some of the journals prior to that.
• 7:07
  Richard Carrico: Kumi Amen, TIpai Amen had surrounded the Presidio.
• 7:11
  Richard Carrico: And if the guards would have come out of the Presidio that night, they would have killed them.
• 7:15
  Richard Carrico: There were only 25 people to Presidio that night, maybe 30.
• 7:20
  Richard Carrico: There were hundreds of Kumeyaay, but the guard was asleep, didn't call the alarm, and nobody came out of the gates of the Presidio, so they didn't even know about the sacking until the next morning.
• 7:31
  Richard Carrico: So, that paper that you heard me present was taking a look at it, what was really going on, what were the motives, You know, and in the military or life in general, you look at, was your mission successful?
• 7:47
  Richard Carrico: And so your mission is successful based on the goal of your mission.
• 7:51
  Richard Carrico: If their goal was to kill Father Jaime and burn the mission to the ground and take those artifacts, crucifixes, baptism fonts that they perceived to be sacrilegious to them, the Kumeyaay, and destroy those things, then they succeeded.
• 8:09
  Richard Carrico: Some historians would see it as a failure because it didn't stop Spain from missionizing San Diego and rebuilding the mission.
• 8:18
  Richard Carrico: But that, I believe that wasn't their goal.
• 8:21
  Richard Carrico: It was, I don't think they thought the Spaniards were going to run away just because they sacked the mission.
• 8:26
  Richard Carrico: So that, that paper I gave that you heard followed up on it and said, well, what happened after that also?
• 8:33
  Richard Carrico: And what were the interrogations?
• 8:35
  Richard Carrico: And, and, you know, they flipped the Indians.
• 8:37
  Richard Carrico: They gave them 40, 50 Azotes, you know, and they tortured them.
• 8:42
  Richard Carrico: Some died in the prison.
• 8:44
  Richard Carrico: So I wanted to follow up on, yeah, that wasn't the ending of this, this.
• 8:49
  Richard Carrico: This thing, this theme, it was the middle, you know, they fomented it, they did it, and then some of them paid the price for it.
• 8:57
  Damian Bacich: can c can I stop you there for a
• 9:00
  Richard Carrico: amazing topic.
• 9:01
  Damian Bacich: So, going back, so just to recap, the Tipai who lives south the, the of the San Diego River were the ones who carried out the attack on the mission, and the main goal was to execute Father Jaime, who was the, the Padre mission at the missionary, at the mission, which they accomplished, uh, because they felt it.
• 9:27
  Damian Bacich: He was attacking their traditional religious beliefs.
• 9:32
  Damian Bacich: So, why didn't the Epi north of the river participate in that attack?
• 9:41
  Damian Bacich: Did they have the same view vis a vis the priest there?
• 9:48
  Richard Carrico: I think they had the same view.
• 9:51
  Richard Carrico: Um, some of the villages north of the river, because they were more isolated, hadn't been contacted as much.
• 9:58
  Richard Carrico: So the original mission was at the Presidio of San Diego, 1769.
• 10:05
  Richard Carrico: And for the first couple of years, there were no baptisms, no Native Americans came in and got baptized.
• 10:11
  Richard Carrico: So now we're up to 1771.
• 10:13
  Richard Carrico: And in about 1774, Father Unepero Serra and Luis Jaime, who took over for him in San Diego as Serra went up the coast, agreed that the mission should be moved.
• 10:28
  Richard Carrico: That the Native Americans were not going to come into a military institution and get baptized.
• 10:34
  Richard Carrico: They, they did, they were afraid of the military in some cases.
• 10:36
  Richard Carrico: And even if they weren't afraid, they didn't like them.
• 10:39
  Richard Carrico: They didn't like those men.
• 10:42
  Richard Carrico: And also that Presidio mission wasn't very successful in growing crops and having gifts to give to the tribes.
• 10:50
  Richard Carrico: And that's of course a big selling point.
• 10:52
  Richard Carrico: And so they prevailed, Jaime and, and Sarah prevailed and the mission was moved in 1774.
• 10:59
  Richard Carrico: Literally, I mean, they took the baptism font and they took the dados and they took what they needed and they moved them up the mission to Mission Valley, where it is today.
• 11:09
  Richard Carrico: And once they were there, Father Jaime then started being successful and went out and baptized, I'm not sure converted, but baptized hundreds of Indians.
• 11:19
  Richard Carrico: Most of those, many of those, were south of the San Diego River.
• 11:24
  Richard Carrico: There were a lot north of the river, probably more south because the terrain was more accessible to go baptize people.
• 11:31
  Richard Carrico: The villages were a little closer together.
• 11:34
  Richard Carrico: But I want to stress, many villages, like the village of Poway, here in San Diego, and those along the coast had a lot of contact.
• 11:43
  Richard Carrico: We found trade beads, you know, on those villages.
• 11:46
  Richard Carrico: We see them in the mission records.
• 11:48
  Richard Carrico: We see baptisms.
• 11:49
  Richard Carrico: We see deaths.
• 11:51
  Richard Carrico: Some of them even got buried at the mission, came in, some of the Kumeyaay from the coast near La Jolla, came in and stayed at the mission.
• 12:00
  Richard Carrico: So it wasn't a complete lack of contact, but I think there was a mentality amongst the religious leaders.
• 12:09
  Richard Carrico: of the Tepei, the Cuyasay, that they should be wIpaing out the mission.
• 12:15
  Richard Carrico: And maybe the people in the north felt that as well, but I think the organizational skills were a little bit different.
• 12:22
  Richard Carrico: The villages down here were a little more populated.
• 12:26
  Richard Carrico: And a friend of mine who works a lot with the Cuitzan, used to be called the Yuma Indians, on the Colorado River.
• 12:34
  Richard Carrico: When you look at that east west, Those Kwitsan people were a lot more aggressive.
• 12:40
  Richard Carrico: I don't want to use the word warlike, but they were more aggressive, and they didn't put up with a lot.
• 12:45
  Richard Carrico: I mean, they're going to close off the trails into San Diego in 1781.
• 12:50
  Richard Carrico: So I think there's a cultural thing.
• 12:52
  Richard Carrico: There's a difference there culturally.
• 12:54
  Richard Carrico: I think the Southern people were more militaristic, and I think their Kwisai, from what I can tell at least, were more influential in influencing the headmen and the military men to go do this sacking.
• 13:09
  Richard Carrico: Because again, it's not, I think it was a religious war in that sense, I think it was a sacred war, or a sacred battle, to get rid of that problem, and for whatever reason, the people south of the river did it.
• 13:21
  Richard Carrico: And about 12 villages were involved and not thousands of soldiers, thousands of Kumeyaay warriors, like people used to say, you know, some, some hundreds for certain.
• 13:34
  Richard Carrico: So that's my take on it.
• 13:36
  Richard Carrico: And a couple of different scholars, you know, Steve Hackle and Sandos and some other people that I've worked with, as I ran drafts of this idea past them, they said, that makes perfect sense from a cultural perspective.
• 13:49
  Damian Bacich: So would you say,
• 13:50
  Richard Carrico: enough, I'm sorry.
• 13:53
  Damian Bacich: would you say then that the, that the abuses that we hear about by the soldiers, especially these being native women, uh, didn't play a role or, or played a more minor role in the, uh, in the attack?
• 14:11
  Richard Carrico: I think it, I wouldn't call it a minor role.
• 14:14
  Richard Carrico: I think if you look at it culturally, it's, it's for the Kumeyaay, as well as some other native people throughout what's now the United States.
• 14:25
  Richard Carrico: The abuse or molesting or raping a woman is actually a sacrilegious thing to do.
• 14:34
  Richard Carrico: you're taking their spirit away from them.
• 14:37
  Richard Carrico: You're, you're tainting them.
• 14:39
  Richard Carrico: You're making them not so much an unwanted woman like you would hear in some other cultures.
• 14:43
  Richard Carrico: It's not that.
• 14:44
  Richard Carrico: It's that the woman is perceived to be a very sacred being, and they see things and they hear things and they know things and they give birth and they, many cases, no plants that a man doesn't know how to use.
• 14:57
  Richard Carrico: So to somehow deface or abuse a woman actually has a sacred element to it.
• 15:03
  Richard Carrico: And you're, and you're desecrating them.
• 15:05
  Richard Carrico: So it's very intertwined.
• 15:07
  Richard Carrico: It's not just the physical abuse.
• 15:09
  Richard Carrico: And we all know, in the times that we live in, that rape is used as a method of warfare to, to degrade people and, and to cause morale problems and all that.
• 15:22
  Richard Carrico: So I think there was a religious tone to the rapes, if you will, if you look at it from the Native American perspective.
• 15:27
  Richard Carrico: It's also, I think, and you know.
• 15:30
  Richard Carrico: This is not exactly a feminist approach, clearly, but for many Kumeyaay men and other native men, those women, be it their wife, their daughter, their sister, at some level belong to the men, not in a chattel or property way, but spiritually and culturally belong to those men.
• 15:49
  Richard Carrico: And so you're, you're also then harming the man by this process.
• 15:56
  Richard Carrico: So I think it was, I think it's a very nuanced, it kind of all fits in together, and I think moving the mission right into the heart of Kumeyaay TIpai territory also was an offense to them.
• 16:10
  Richard Carrico: Okay, you're on the coast.
• 16:12
  Richard Carrico: You've got this mission inside of a Presidio.
• 16:15
  Richard Carrico: A lot of our people aren't coming in and being baptized.
• 16:18
  Richard Carrico: Maybe you'll go away.
• 16:19
  Richard Carrico: Maybe you'll start getting some goods we can trade with you.
• 16:22
  Richard Carrico: Okay, stay there.
• 16:24
  Richard Carrico: But once they moved six miles east and got right on top of a major village called Nipawai and literally built the mission.
• 16:32
  Richard Carrico: on top of it.
• 16:33
  Richard Carrico: In fact, when I excavated it, once we got below the floor tiles, there was a village for five more feet.
• 16:40
  Richard Carrico: So I think it's, it's very complex.
• 16:43
  Richard Carrico: And that's what I was trying to get into.
• 16:45
  Richard Carrico: This was not just a battle or a singular event driven by warriors or by military to take out the Spanish colonial.
• 16:54
  Richard Carrico: It's, it's much more interlaced than that.
• 16:57
  Richard Carrico: I still don't, I still don't have all the answers.
• 17:00
  Richard Carrico: that's for sure.
• 17:03
  Damian Bacich: I see that, that's really interesting.
• 17:05
  Damian Bacich: And that makes, that makes Well, of course, when, when you start, um.
• 17:10
  Damian Bacich: Complicating something it makes more sense because People are complicated people's motivations are complex and there are always layers to things So that's that's very interesting and very helpful So you were gonna talk before I interrupted you you were talking a little bit about the aftermath of the of that sacking and how the, how the, uh, the military, Spanish military dealt with the, uh, the guys who carried it out or the ones they captured.
• 17:42
  Richard Carrico: Yeah, I, I'm, I'm working on a piece on that and by going through ADA's diary, he was the Commandant of the Presidio, so Fernando Ada, so this is 1775.
• 17:57
  Damian Bacich: And Rivera,
• 17:57
  Richard Carrico: writes his diaries in
• 17:59
  Damian Bacich: um, brought the group to populate, um, uh, Los Angeles, Pueblos Los Angeles in 1781.
• 18:08
  Richard Carrico: Yes, yes.
• 18:11
  Richard Carrico: He was one of those guys who constantly, not constantly, but often went back down across the Colorado River down into Sonora and recruited people, or they'd already been recruited.
• 18:21
  Richard Carrico: Then he brought them back up.
• 18:23
  Richard Carrico: He brought soldiers from Sinaloa.
• 18:26
  Richard Carrico: He brought women up for the first time, a lot of women with soldiers as their wives and daughters, who then became the populations of San Diego and Los Angeles.
• 18:35
  Richard Carrico: And he doesn't know it in 1775 or 1776 when he's interviewing these, uh, these warriors, these Cabasillas.
• 18:43
  Richard Carrico: He only has five years to live.
• 18:46
  Richard Carrico: He's going to come across the Colorado River, one time too many in 1781, and the Quetzal are going to kill him, and Father Garces, and everybody with him.
• 18:56
  Richard Carrico: Except for some hostages.
• 18:57
  Richard Carrico: So he, I think he was a pretty astute military man.
• 19:02
  Richard Carrico: I think in his own way, he understood the native people pretty well.
• 19:06
  Richard Carrico: Having worked with them a lot, he, he, he sends soldiers out to the villages that he knows about.
• 19:14
  Richard Carrico: And they, they, they arrest people.
• 19:18
  Richard Carrico: He did it under Spanish law.
• 19:20
  Richard Carrico: And he writes this in his diary.
• 19:22
  Richard Carrico: He's obviously writing this so the viceroy and everybody else will see it in the future.
• 19:26
  Richard Carrico: But he's saying, following the laws of the, of the Indies and following the viceroys, blah, blah, blah, I did this.
• 19:33
  Richard Carrico: He wants, he doesn't want to be seen as a rogue and unlike some other people like Anza and some others, he doesn't want to go out.
• 19:41
  Richard Carrico: He doesn't have the people to do it anyhow.
• 19:43
  Richard Carrico: He doesn't want to go out and attack villages for revenge or go out and do a military action.
• 19:49
  Richard Carrico: He's not capable of doing it for one thing, but he doesn't think that's going to be productive.
• 19:53
  Richard Carrico: And the more military people want to want to do that very much.
• 19:58
  Richard Carrico: So instead he sends people out and in his diary, and then in other articles written by Ortega, who was his lead sergeant, and we've got all his documents from the Bancroft library.
• 20:12
  Richard Carrico: Um, they brought the leaders back and they interrogated them.
• 20:16
  Richard Carrico: And they had a couple of guys that were very good Spanish Kumeyaay speakers, one of whom was named Diego.
• 20:23
  Richard Carrico: I think actually he was playing both sides.
• 20:26
  Richard Carrico: I think he was a double agent.
• 20:27
  Richard Carrico: But Diego is the interpreter, and when you compare his interpretations, literally translations, and another interpreter, they're very similar.
• 20:36
  Richard Carrico: So it's not like people are making stuff up entirely.
• 20:41
  Richard Carrico: And what you get is Here's the leaders.
• 20:44
  Richard Carrico: Here's who the leaders are.
• 20:46
  Richard Carrico: Here's what villages they were from.
• 20:48
  Richard Carrico: Here's villages that didn't take part in it.
• 20:51
  Richard Carrico: And when asked why they didn't take part in it, Poway for instance, or Istawa along the coast, simply say, I'll paraphrase, we weren't invited.
• 21:03
  Richard Carrico: We just weren't invited.
• 21:06
  Richard Carrico: So that goes back to your question earlier of why they weren't, because the alliance, that wasn't their alliance.
• 21:12
  Richard Carrico: Now, even if some of the clans were similar, it wasn't part of their alliance.
• 21:15
  Richard Carrico: So they weren't invited to come to that war or that battle.
• 21:19
  Richard Carrico: You could kind of think about it.
• 21:21
  Richard Carrico: You know, the French, the British, the Spanish back in the 16, 1500s, constantly making new alliances.
• 21:27
  Richard Carrico: And so sometimes you weren't, Spain wasn't invited to join France to go do this or that.
• 21:32
  Richard Carrico: Right.
• 21:32
  Richard Carrico: So it's that on, on that kind of political scale.
• 21:36
  Richard Carrico: So he, he, he had the authority, he, Fernando Rivera Moncada and Ortega to whip these men, if they, if they, if they were obdurant and didn't want to talk, he was allowed to whip them.
• 21:49
  Richard Carrico: Uh, there were prescriptions.
• 21:50
  Richard Carrico: You were only supposed to do 40 lashes a day.
• 21:53
  Richard Carrico: You were not supposed to do any more than that in his diary.
• 21:56
  Richard Carrico: He says, I did, I did more than 40 sometimes because he was, he was being recalcitrant and what develops is you can see who the leaders were, um, both self identified, some of them were proud to have done this, others kind of turned on, you know, somebody, especially some of the people from the EPI, frankly, who knew who the leaders were.
• 22:18
  Richard Carrico: They said, Oh, well, we heard.
• 22:20
  Richard Carrico: Because remember, they're not there.
• 22:21
  Richard Carrico: We heard it was Francisco from El Capitan, or it was this person or that person.
• 22:27
  Richard Carrico: So we got pages and pages, and when you line them all up and you look for discrepancies, you can see the major villages that took part in it.
• 22:35
  Richard Carrico: And back to our earlier discussion, the major village for one part of the county was the Bancroft Ranch House site.
• 22:43
  Richard Carrico: It was Mette, that's where they all grouped up.
• 22:46
  Richard Carrico: That's where four or five of the villages met the night before, got their act together, got their bows and arrows, got their clubs, got a good night's sleep.
• 22:56
  Richard Carrico: Then the next night went out and took out the mission.
• 22:59
  Richard Carrico: So we have all that good information.
• 23:01
  Richard Carrico: A neat thing for me is Moncada sent a couple sergeants down by the south end of San Diego Bay, not too far from T'Quan, down there by the San Diego Bay to go find the Calviseas, the leaders down there.
• 23:15
  Richard Carrico: The sun was rising and the soldiers are moving in toward the village to make the capture.
• 23:20
  Richard Carrico: The captains of the village saw this and got in their canoes and went out to, went out to the ocean and escaped, basically.
• 23:28
  Richard Carrico: And Somebody at the village said, yeah, you won't catch them.
• 23:32
  Richard Carrico: You won't catch my leaders because they're in their boats and they're a long way away now and you can't sneak up on us.
• 23:38
  Richard Carrico: We have patrols.
• 23:39
  Richard Carrico: So again, that adds a whole other element to it, right?
• 23:41
  Richard Carrico: This is not just a one off and it's very organized.
• 23:45
  Richard Carrico: Very organized.
• 23:46
  Richard Carrico: Uh, Paul Chase gave a good paper and has written about a guy named Naguasso, who was a major leader, and he was brought in and interrogated and refused to answer.
• 23:58
  Richard Carrico: Wouldn't even speak to people.
• 24:00
  Richard Carrico: Father Sarah actually came down from up north and interrogated him and said, you know, We, we are going to give you the benefit of Jesus here, and if you convert, he will give you the And if you become a good Spaniard here, nothing bad will happen to you.
• 24:16
  Richard Carrico: You're clearly a strong, intelligent leader.
• 24:18
  Richard Carrico: I want to help you.
• 24:19
  Richard Carrico: And Noguaso said, go away and chased it a good article on that.
• 24:24
  Richard Carrico: And then the next day, Noguaso hanged himself in his prison cell and not by a He actually had to kneel down to hang himself and pull his legs up off the floor of the Presidio prison.
• 24:39
  Richard Carrico: So that's, that's the aftermath.
• 24:41
  Richard Carrico: Another guy probably died from his wounds, another Kumeyaay.
• 24:45
  Richard Carrico: The priest describes his wounds as so bad when he saw him from the whippings that there were maggots crawling out of his skin.
• 24:53
  Richard Carrico: So, that's the aftermath.
• 24:55
  Richard Carrico: It didn't just end November 5th or 6th of 1775.
• 24:59
  Richard Carrico: It went on for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks.
• 25:03
  Damian Bacich: Can I ask you a question?
• 25:04
  Richard Carrico: And, yeah,
• 25:07
  Damian Bacich: You know, um, like some of the names that you're mentioning, one, one man was named Francisco, but the other was named Nahuaso, if I remember correctly.
• 25:17
  Damian Bacich: So were some of these, uh, baptized?
• 25:22
  Damian Bacich: Kumeyaay, who, I assume if he has a Spanish name, that he was probably, had been baptized.
• 25:29
  Damian Bacich: So were some of these, uh, neophytes who attacked the mission?
• 25:36
  Richard Carrico: I'd say probably 80%.
• 25:37
  Damian Bacich: Mm hmm.
• 25:38
  Richard Carrico: 80 percent of the leaders.
• 25:40
  Richard Carrico: And I don't know what percent below that because we don't have their names.
• 25:44
  Richard Carrico: But I suspect many of them were, because I think that might have been part of the, the recruitment is you've been to the, you've been to the mission, you see how they can't feed us, they're promising us food, and they're saying this is good, and Jesus is, you know, good, but they can't even feed themselves.
• 26:04
  Richard Carrico: They allow us to go back in the mountains and gather acorns to, to feed ourselves at the mission.
• 26:10
  Richard Carrico: You've seen the diseases.
• 26:12
  Richard Carrico: I think that's another subtext that was going on, but I think it had a religious implication too, is by this time something, maybe smallpox, maybe malaria, maybe measles, was starting to kill the native people at an increased rate.
• 26:27
  Richard Carrico: And I think the religious leaders and everyone else in the village knew that.
• 26:32
  Richard Carrico: And they associated it with the mission.
• 26:34
  Richard Carrico: So I, I think probably, I don't even know the number of warriors that would have been baptized already, but I, I think it was probably a very high percent, I think it was a very high percent and the leaders, at least 80%.
• 26:49
  Richard Carrico: Oh, and big leaders, big leaders of big villages because Father Jaime.
• 26:55
  Richard Carrico: Like they always tried to do, the Franciscans or anyone, tried to baptize first the elders and the leaders of the village.
• 27:03
  Richard Carrico: Religious, cultural, military, political, tried to get them first.
• 27:09
  Richard Carrico: Sometimes, it looks like for me, to me, many of the village leaders took the gifts, got, quote, got baptized as a way of kind of knowing more about the Spaniards.
• 27:21
  Richard Carrico: And sure, hey, if you're going to give me a bag of blue and red trade beads.
• 27:26
  Richard Carrico: So that you can sprinkle some water on my forehead and call me Christian.
• 27:29
  Richard Carrico: Absolutely, I'm going to do that.
• 27:31
  Richard Carrico: So when I go through the baptism records, that's also who they baptize first, if they can.
• 27:36
  Richard Carrico: They go to the leaders and try to get them to baptize first, hoping that then the tribe or the village will follow along.
• 27:44
  Richard Carrico: But when I look at the records after the baptisms, I don't see those leaders showing up for Mass, right?
• 27:52
  Richard Carrico: I don't, being baptized is not the same as being converted.
• 27:56
  Richard Carrico: Yeah,
• 27:57
  Damian Bacich: How many warriors did you, maybe I missed it, but how many warriors would you say participated in the sacking of the mission?
• 28:09
  Richard Carrico: I'd say.
• 28:10
  Richard Carrico: Between 200 and 300, both meaning probably half of those were at the mission and the other half were at the Presidio.
• 28:18
  Richard Carrico: They'd surrounded the Presidio.
• 28:20
  Richard Carrico: They were at the base of the hill.
• 28:22
  Richard Carrico: So, I can't imagine it being more than 300.
• 28:26
  Richard Carrico: Some of the early
• 28:27
  Damian Bacich: that's quite, that's quite a
• 28:29
  Richard Carrico: and some of the others talk about 1800.
• 28:31
  Richard Carrico: Yeah, that's just not possible.
• 28:34
  Damian Bacich: How many soldiers would you say were there and what was the, what was the response, the Spanish response in the moment in terms of, of defending the, the mission?
• 28:46
  Damian Bacich: Did
• 28:57
  Richard Carrico: not looked at that lately, but there are only four or five at the mission, one of whom was killed and at the Presidio itself.
• 29:08
  Richard Carrico: And this goes to the planning, I think.
• 29:10
  Richard Carrico: This is not just some random night.
• 29:14
  Richard Carrico: The Kumeyaay knew that a lot of the soldiers were up north.
• 29:19
  Richard Carrico: They weren't at the Presidio.
• 29:20
  Richard Carrico: They'd accompanied other people to go do other missions going up north.
• 29:24
  Richard Carrico: I believe there were less than 30.
• 29:28
  Richard Carrico: Soldiers at the Presidio.
• 29:31
  Richard Carrico: 27 is something that sticks in my mind.
• 29:33
  Richard Carrico: And it's hard for me to tell exactly because in the documents, they don't always talk about troop movements or, or who went, they'd say Sergeant so and so took six people with him north, where they'd just say, took his better soldiers or took his leather jacket soldiers.
• 29:50
  Richard Carrico: So you don't get a good enumeration, but based on what I think the regiment size was at the time, and where I know some of the soldiers were, November 5th, 1775, there can't have been more than 30, I think 27.
• 30:08
  Richard Carrico: And so what happened afterward?
• 30:10
  Richard Carrico: Well, that morning afterwards, uh, the survivors.
• 30:16
  Richard Carrico: Came up to the Presidio.
• 30:18
  Richard Carrico: Walked the six miles to the Presidio.
• 30:21
  Richard Carrico: And as they were approaching the Presidio, the guards saw them, who'd been asleep, or at least a guard had been asleep the night before, and sent people down to help them.
• 30:30
  Richard Carrico: And then they could look up the valley, because you can see the mission from the Presidio Hill, and they could see the smoke.
• 30:36
  Richard Carrico: They could see the smoldering ruins and all that.
• 30:39
  Richard Carrico: So, uh, What they basically did is they started building, throwing up pickets around the adobe walls that were not quite finished at the Presidio.
• 30:50
  Richard Carrico: They got their rifles out.
• 30:51
  Richard Carrico: They got the few cannon that they had ready to go if they needed them.
• 30:55
  Richard Carrico: But they're mounted and one's pointing towards the harbor and one's pointing somewhere else.
• 31:01
  Richard Carrico: So they basically sounded the alarm and many people, based on Moncada, thought at the time they were going to be killed.
• 31:10
  Richard Carrico: That that was the beginning of an onslaught and depending on how the sacking of the mission went, the Presidio would be next.
• 31:17
  Richard Carrico: So that's, that's, that was their reaction.
• 31:20
  Richard Carrico: Then they sent runners, uh, up north to try to get Anza and other people, other military back to defend the Presidio.
• 31:29
  Richard Carrico: But they were, they were in fear of their life.
• 31:31
  Richard Carrico: Absolutely.
• 31:32
  Richard Carrico: Positively.
• 31:34
  Richard Carrico: Uh, they did capture a couple, um, Kumeyaay from another village and one of them said, yeah, you're next.
• 31:41
  Richard Carrico: We're going to kill all of you, which I think was just an idle boast because I don't think that was ever the plan, but it sure scared the heck out of the, out of the military at the Presidio.
• 31:54
  Richard Carrico: They then went out a couple of days later and, and, uh, went to the mission and got Father Jaime's body.
• 32:00
  Richard Carrico: And the other two people killed, the blacksmith and a soldier, and brought them back up to Presidio Hill, Presidio Hill, where they proceeded to bury them in the chapel at, on Presidio Hill.
• 32:16
  Richard Carrico: And then some years later, Father Jaime was excavated out of the altar and taken back to Mission San Diego and Mission Valley and reburied there.
• 32:26
  Richard Carrico: I believe, and this is going to be in my, my book, that we excavated, uh, One of the individuals who was killed by the, by the Native Americans that day because he matches all the descriptions and he was, he was killed by an arrow point to the chest, to the left side of his chest and two in the groin and then he bled out.
• 32:49
  Richard Carrico: And we found a Spanish person of the genome, you know, body type artifacts, and he still had an arrow point in his chest.
• 32:58
  Richard Carrico: So I think we know, I think we found that guy.
• 33:17
  Richard Carrico: I'm sorry, for some reason I can't hear you right now.
• 33:20
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, I, I was, I muted myself.
• 33:23
  Damian Bacich: Sorry about that.
• 33:24
  Damian Bacich: Um, the mission doesn't go away, and the, it's rebuilt, and, and the Presidio doesn't go away.
• 33:32
  Damian Bacich: The soldiers are still there.
• 33:34
  Damian Bacich: What is then the legacy over the next decades of Spanish presence in San Diego in terms of relationship between the Kumeyaay and, and the mission, the Presidio, the, the Spanish presence there?
• 33:55
  Richard Carrico: I think it's, it's multi layered, but I would begin by saying it looks to me, based on baptism records after that, for instance, that, that more E Pi, were baptized than Te Pai after that, and I think it was a very conscious effort of both the priest, although I think the priest probably went out and tried to do Te Pai south of the river, but it looks like the E Pai were still more accommodating.
• 34:23
  Richard Carrico: It looks as if they married into the culture a little bit more.
• 34:28
  Richard Carrico: And so they kind of went along to get along.
• 34:32
  Richard Carrico: South of the river, what it looks like, because you have the mountainous regions that start a lot sooner, is basically many of the mountain regions went untouched by Spanish colonial efforts.
• 34:44
  Richard Carrico: So 40 miles from the mission, up in the Cuyamaca Mountains, You've got a huge village up there, Ahakwiamak, and it only had eight baptisms, but there were probably 300 people living there.
• 34:58
  Richard Carrico: When you go to other villages that are further remote, like Hamul, Hamul, it's not on a major trade route.
• 35:05
  Richard Carrico: It's right by the border.
• 35:07
  Richard Carrico: It'll be a major trade route later.
• 35:09
  Richard Carrico: There were only five or six people who baptized from there.
• 35:12
  Richard Carrico: So it looks to me like it was sort of a detente that took place.
• 35:17
  Richard Carrico: The priest probably sensed and sized up.
• 35:21
  Richard Carrico: Can I get some converts from this village or not?
• 35:23
  Richard Carrico: They tried when they didn't, they didn't go back.
• 35:27
  Richard Carrico: And so you have entire villages that went largely untouched by the conversion process.
• 35:34
  Richard Carrico: Doesn't mean they weren't affected by soldiers coming through the area.
• 35:37
  Richard Carrico: Running cattle off their land and, and in the case of alcohol, raping some women, it doesn't mean diseases.
• 35:44
  Richard Carrico: You know, it got passed from one tribal member to another tribal member.
• 35:48
  Richard Carrico: So it's that old story of infectious diseases.
• 35:51
  Richard Carrico: Somebody up in the mountains who never saw a Spaniard could still get measles or smallpox, right, by contagion.
• 35:59
  Richard Carrico: So I think there was sort of a balance that took place.
• 36:03
  Richard Carrico: Although, although, um, I think it was Ortega.
• 36:08
  Richard Carrico: One of the sergeants, And his diary says, we don't go east of El Cajon very often.
• 36:15
  Richard Carrico: We don't go east of El Cajon because it's too dangerous.
• 36:18
  Richard Carrico: So El Cajon is only 15 miles from the mission.
• 36:22
  Richard Carrico: And it's called that because it's a valley, it's a box.
• 36:25
  Richard Carrico: And after that, you're up in the mountains and you're up where the leaders of the insurrection live and still lived at that time.
• 36:33
  Richard Carrico: So when they had to go out towards Yuma, they went south.
• 36:37
  Richard Carrico: Way south towards T'Kwan and came back around that way, or they went way north.
• 36:42
  Richard Carrico: So there's a level of accommodation going on there in the 1830s.
• 36:48
  Richard Carrico: Uh, the Kumeyaay, again, almost all T'pie are going to basically sack almost every rancho in San Diego, in San Diego County.
• 36:57
  Richard Carrico: They're going to go out and take hostages.
• 36:58
  Richard Carrico: They're going to burn them to the ground.
• 37:00
  Richard Carrico: They're going to steal cattle.
• 37:02
  Richard Carrico: So this would be 1835.
• 37:07
  Richard Carrico: So this is 1835 through 37.
• 37:10
  Richard Carrico: So it's right after secularization, right?
• 37:13
  Richard Carrico: And it's after the Mexican revolution.
• 37:15
  Richard Carrico: And so the Kumeyaay see that new soldiers aren't coming in, new supplies aren't coming in, and a lot of the soldiers from the Presidio had retired from the military and got their ranchos, got their land grants, built adobe houses, and live, you know, in quite a distance from where the military could help them anyhow.
• 37:37
  Richard Carrico: So the one that's most famous down here is Rancho Jamul, where the rancho was set on fire and hostages were taken by the Kumeyaay and never seen again.
• 37:48
  Richard Carrico: They sent parties out to try to, you know, repatriate them, but they were gone by then.
• 37:54
  Richard Carrico: So, Uh, Mike Conley, Mike Conley Mishquish, who's Kumeyaay, working on his PhD right now up at UCSD, I think, uh, he, he calls that the Zorro period, but it's also a period of unrest.
• 38:10
  Richard Carrico: People in Old Town, San Diego, um, were living in fear and they had guards around their house at night at the Bandini house for fear of the Kumeyaay and ultimately there was going to be an insurrection in 1835.
• 38:25
  Richard Carrico: Somebody ratted them out in Old Town and they took, they rounded up what they thought were the leaders in Old Town, they the Mexicans, by then Californios, and took them down by the San Diego River and executed them and they're buried down there somewhere.
• 38:39
  Richard Carrico: Um, so it was an ongoing process.
• 38:42
  Richard Carrico: The Kumeyaay would say, they never gave up.
• 38:46
  Richard Carrico: They never gave up, you know.
• 38:49
  Damian Bacich: Is that,
• 38:50
  Richard Carrico: some went
• 38:53
  Damian Bacich: sorry,
• 38:53
  Richard Carrico: to work as vaqueros, right?
• 38:55
  Richard Carrico: Some married in, some did this, so it varied by your village.
• 39:00
  Richard Carrico: And, and, you know, just because you became a vaquero for the Carrillo family doesn't mean you still didn't believe in your Kumeyaay religion, or you didn't still do bird songs, or you didn't go off on, on your days off.
• 39:15
  Richard Carrico: back to your village and, and participate in very traditional cultural things.
• 39:21
  Richard Carrico: So when I hear people say, and sometimes the Kumeyaay do this, and they don't mean to, they'll say they came in and destroyed all of our culture.
• 39:29
  Richard Carrico: I go, no, actually, clearly they didn't.
• 39:31
  Richard Carrico: You still do certain things and there are native speakers and, and on and on.
• 39:36
  Richard Carrico: So it was more of, you know, accommodation, I think, on both sides.
• 39:41
  Richard Carrico: Absolutely.
• 39:42
  Richard Carrico: The priest, a couple of the priests that were here were better, quote, better priests.
• 39:46
  Richard Carrico: They were more humane.
• 39:48
  Richard Carrico: They'd gone, you know, they were a result of the Enlightenment, and that was kind of catching on.
• 39:53
  Richard Carrico: But it was definitely a thing of, I'm going to approach your village, I'm going to try to get you to convert, but if you don't want to, I'm probably not going to come back.
• 40:01
  Richard Carrico: I'm going to go elsewhere.
• 40:03
  Richard Carrico: Yeah,
• 40:04
  Damian Bacich: Today, do you do those, um, I don't wanna call'em divisions, I dunno what you'd call it, but the distinction say between the different families and even the, the different, let's say the EI and the tea pie at that time, do those, um, distinctions or groups still mean something to the kumeyaay today?
• 40:31
  Richard Carrico: they, they do.
• 40:33
  Richard Carrico: And they, and they, and they did even back in during the American period, but it was breaking down a great deal, um, partially because they were losing their traditional lands from, let's say the Pacific ocean inland for 10, 12 miles.
• 40:48
  Richard Carrico: They were being, as Florence Shipwick said in her book, pushed into the rocks.
• 40:52
  Richard Carrico: So as given villages were being abandoned, let's say the village of which was right on the coast, and they're north, they're Ipai, they moved basically into Powai, which is a mountain village.
• 41:05
  Richard Carrico: So in doing so, they gave up their coastal land and, and you know, certain traditions associated with fishing and coastal livelihood and moved up there.
• 41:16
  Richard Carrico: But now they're going to be near some other people and some other clans and families, so the intermarriage is going to change.
• 41:22
  Richard Carrico: I think a woman named Catherine Luomala talked about Kumeyaay flexibility.
• 41:27
  Richard Carrico: in their sibs, in their clans.
• 41:30
  Richard Carrico: So, whereas before you could not, if you were the fox clan, you were prohibited from marrying into the raven clan.
• 41:37
  Richard Carrico: In this time period starting then, because the population's falling and because you're living in a different circumstance, they started being more flexible about who you could marry.
• 41:48
  Richard Carrico: At the mission, if you came into the mission and did actually get somewhat converted, the priest decided who you should marry basically.
• 41:57
  Richard Carrico: And then that's going to break down that whole clan organization.
• 42:01
  Richard Carrico: So I would say elements of it continued.
• 42:05
  Richard Carrico: So when you go and work with, let's say 30 years ago, when I was working with some 80 year old elders or 10 years ago with Leroy Elliott from, from, The Manzanita Reservation, he and members of his family still practice a lot of tradition in terms of sweats, in terms of certain days on the calendar that meant something.
• 42:29
  Richard Carrico: So, like, in about a month, the constellation Orion will start coming up right after sun, sunrise, sunset, sunset.
• 42:38
  Richard Carrico: And that's, that's the beginning of winter.
• 42:41
  Richard Carrico: It's actually for them, it's a bighorn sheep, by the way, called Emu.
• 42:45
  Richard Carrico: So Leroy Elliott would still 30 years ago, 20 years ago, know when winter was starting and do a ceremony in honor of winter starting, because it's going to affect your food supply.
• 42:58
  Richard Carrico: It's going to affect the water temperature in the ocean and what fish are going to be there, right?
• 43:02
  Richard Carrico: You've already done your acorn harvest.
• 43:04
  Richard Carrico: So certain families did, other families, either because they got sent off to boarding schools.
• 43:11
  Richard Carrico: Or because, interestingly enough, they joined the military, especially in World War II.
• 43:17
  Richard Carrico: As young men, when they came home, many of those men were dissatisfied with going back on a reservation.
• 43:23
  Richard Carrico: You know, they'd seen another world out there.
• 43:25
  Richard Carrico: Maybe they came not directly home and married a white girl or a Mexican girl.
• 43:32
  Richard Carrico: And now they're going to be disengaged to some degree from their family.
• 43:36
  Richard Carrico: So you almost have to look at it, first of all, on a reservation by reservation.
• 43:42
  Richard Carrico: Uh, basis, and then you have to look at it on a clan and family basis.
• 43:46
  Richard Carrico: So anytime one of my pet fetishes, I suppose, or peeves is when somebody starts something saying the San Diego Indians, that makes no sense to me.
• 43:58
  Richard Carrico: You know, I think we just learned that in an election talking about the Latino population.
• 44:04
  Richard Carrico: It's not identity politics.
• 44:06
  Richard Carrico: It doesn't work that way.
• 44:08
  Richard Carrico: And so certain reservations, probably those more remote and those that were set up earlier.
• 44:14
  Richard Carrico: Let's say in the 1870s, probably retained a lot more of their culture than those reservations set up in the 1800s, early 1900s, because by then, they had acculturated a lot.
• 44:27
  Richard Carrico: And they are going to be moved to a piece of land that was not part of their clan traditional ownership.
• 44:35
  Richard Carrico: The plants are going to be different.
• 44:37
  Richard Carrico: The environment's going to be a little bit different.
• 44:39
  Richard Carrico: And so they're going to, they're going to do more amalgamation and accommodation.
• 44:45
  Richard Carrico: It's extremely complex.
• 44:47
  Damian Bacich: Sorry, you meant so that the reservations that were formed later, the people there would, would be changing more, adapting more, or the earlier reservations were the ones where there would be more change.
• 45:04
  Richard Carrico: I think there'll be more change in the later ones because those people lived closer to the non native civilization culture, and when those reservations were set up, I don't know which one, one up in the back country.
• 45:21
  Richard Carrico: Those people are going to be amalgamated.
• 45:23
  Richard Carrico: They're going to be taken from small villages and settlements that still remained like on the edge of downtown San Diego, but those people living on the edge of downtown San Diego in 1880s, they'd helped build the Hotel Del Coronado.
• 45:36
  Richard Carrico: They worked on the rail when the rail was coming into San Diego.
• 45:39
  Richard Carrico: They had become wage laborers.
• 45:42
  Richard Carrico: They probably spoke really good Spanish.
• 45:44
  Richard Carrico: And because they're living on the, literally on the margins of San Diego, they're probably not doing as many cremations and traditional ceremonies and girls puberty rites.
• 45:58
  Richard Carrico: But somebody who got a reservation in 1875, like, um, El Capitan, now it's a lake, but El Capitan, they were still practicing their traditions in the 1870s, many of them.
• 46:12
  Richard Carrico: So they got moved somewhere, but they can, there's a more of a continuum.
• 46:17
  Richard Carrico: Whereas for somebody who grew up in the village on the edge of San Diego, the kids might not even speak Kumeyaay anymore.
• 46:24
  Richard Carrico: They just speak Spanish because it was not good to speak your native language.
• 46:28
  Richard Carrico: So when they finally get their reservation and are moved to Saquon or Barona or somewhere, it's not going to be the same.
• 46:36
  Damian Bacich: Gotcha.
• 46:37
  Damian Bacich: Gotcha.
• 46:40
  Damian Bacich: Well, I've kept you for a long time.
• 46:43
  Damian Bacich: This has been a massive treasure trove of information.
• 46:48
  Damian Bacich: I mean, this is really, really interesting stuff.
• 46:52
  Damian Bacich: And you have put in a lot of years and have a lot of experience doing and thinking these things.
• 47:00
  Damian Bacich: And I really appreciate that.
• 47:02
  Damian Bacich: One last question.
• 47:03
  Damian Bacich: What's, would, uh, would you.
• 47:08
  Damian Bacich: encourage somebody, a young person, to go into archaeology these days, especially in California?
• 47:15
  Damian Bacich: Is it a viable, uh, way forward, a viable career path?
• 47:18
  Damian Bacich: Okay.
• 47:21
  Damian Bacich: I
• 47:24
  Richard Carrico: is first answered by geography.
• 47:26
  Richard Carrico: You know, we've got over 80 some tribes, if you will, in California, and some are extremely small, some are huge, some, as you can well imagine, are more receptive to anthropology and archaeology based on how they've been treated by anthropologists and archaeologists.
• 47:44
  Richard Carrico: Others are very resistant.
• 47:46
  Richard Carrico: They, they perceive us to be culture vultures and desecrators and want almost nothing to do with us.
• 47:52
  Richard Carrico: So I guess my first answer would be you need to know the tribes that you intend to study and where you think your graduate work might be or your work as an anthropologist archaeologist.
• 48:03
  Richard Carrico: So if you start with that and then I know this sounds, you know, whatever, you need to start by being an anthropologist who does archaeology.
• 48:14
  Richard Carrico: Because in America, archaeology got divorced from anthropology in some areas, and so you can get a degree in archaeology and take very little anthropology.
• 48:24
  Richard Carrico: And if in fact, you know, I think it was, I can't remember, the famous scholar back in the 1890s 1900s said that archaeology is the handmaiden of anthropology.
• 48:37
  Richard Carrico: It's a tool.
• 48:38
  Richard Carrico: It's a tool.
• 48:39
  Richard Carrico: It's not even a discipline in and of itself.
• 48:41
  Richard Carrico: It's a subdiscipline of anthropology.
• 48:44
  Richard Carrico: So I think if you're the kind of person who wants to know more about people and not artifacts, I think you could have a good career, especially if you are a humanist and you want to deal with living people.
• 49:00
  Richard Carrico: There's a whole set of both archaeologists my age and younger, and now coming up even younger, who frankly don't want to work in California.
• 49:09
  Richard Carrico: They want to work in South America or Mexico, where Native Americans are not allowed.
• 49:14
  Richard Carrico: dealt with in some cases.
• 49:16
  Richard Carrico: If you cross across the border here, because I give papers down there and work with INA down in Baja California, you will see a PowerPoint that will show burials.
• 49:26
  Richard Carrico: And even the Native Americans in the room do not seem to be, I don't know truly, but don't seem to be disturbed by that.
• 49:33
  Richard Carrico: In fact, they want to know more about their past.
• 49:37
  Richard Carrico: And seeing a burial on a screen doesn't seem to cause the same emotional issues that it does up here.
• 49:45
  Richard Carrico: So, I have students and past students who are working down in Baja, California and in Sonora, because they don't want to deal with the politics.
• 50:21
  Damian Bacich: think that's the best position to be in, right?
• 50:27
  Damian Bacich: Well, thanks so much.
• 50:28
  Damian Bacich: Uh, once again, I know you, you do a lot of things and I really appreciate your, your giving up What is it?
• 50:36
  Damian Bacich: An hour and a half or more of your time to talk with me.
• 50:39
  Damian Bacich: But I think everybody who hears this or watches it is going to find it really interesting.
• 50:45
  Damian Bacich: And I want to thank you for, for everything you've done.
• 50:47
  Damian Bacich: And I hope, you know, at some point in the future, you would be willing to come back and talk a little bit more.
• 50:51
  Damian Bacich: I'd appreciate that.
• 50:57
  Damian Bacich: I love it.
• 50:58
  Damian Bacich: Well, thank you, Richard.
• 50:59
  Damian Bacich: And, uh, until, until the next time.
• 51:15
  I hope you enjoyed this episode of the California Frontier Show.
• 51:18
  If you'd like to support the show, the best thing to do is to let other people know about it.
• 51:24
  If you'd like to support it monetarily, there are a couple ways of doing that.
• 51:28
  One is by scrolling down in your podcast app to where it says support the show.
• 51:33
  There you can become a subscriber for as little as three dollars a month.
• 51:38
  And if you want to give a one time donation, just below you'll see where it says give a one time donation.
• 51:45
  Finally, the show is supported by California History Teachers, which is a full year of lessons for 4th grade California History and Social Studies.
• 51:54
  You can find out more at www.
• 51:57
  californiahistoryteachers.
• 51:59
  com.
• 52:00
  And if you input the coupon code PODCAST, you'll receive 25 percent off your monthly or annual subscription.
• 52:08
  So check it out!