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Episode 4 Jose Manuel Moller · Unfolding: a circular economy podcast

• Wayne Hubbard: Welcome to Unfolding, a podcast which is going to unfold the circular economy. Exploring the current state of circularity progress and crucially how we can all be part of accelerating the transition and take action to combat linear lock-in, whether we are policymakers, businesses, or citizens. In this first series of episodes, we will be focusing on the upcoming COP 31 in Turkey in November. Where the circular economy has been highlighted as one of the core focus areas for action in the battle to reduce climate emissions. And we will be talking to a range of experts who have knowledge of the process who will give us their take on how national governments can incorporate circular economy principles into climate mitigation strategies. And then myself and Wayne will actually be going to COP. where we will be attempting to put into practice what we've learned from the series of episodes and attempt to influence the cop outcome. So thanks for tuning in. And why don't you join us on this journey on the road to Antalya? I'm Ian Gond, working on the circle economy. I was the former chief executive of Zero Waste Scotland, as well as the Past president of ACR Plus, a European network of cities and regions promoting more sustainable resource management and the circular economy. I'm Wayne Hubbard. I'm the former CEO of Re London, but now an advisor to cities on circular economy and a podcaster with Ian. And together we have over half a decade, 16 years of experience. Yeah. Working in waste in the circular economy. Things and getting older every time you say that. So myself and Wayne are talking with a range of exciting guests over ten weeks in the run-up to the COP actual event itself to understand a little bit more about the COP process and what we could expect or what we should expect by way of agreements, implementation plans for the circular economy specifically, as well as getting into a wider discussion around the circular economy transition as it is in 2026. And there is an opportunity for you to feed in your thoughts and questions by email. Unfolding at unfoldcc.com. potentially suggest future guests, but also, you know, we want to make this as interacting as possible. So please do like, subscribe, and comment in the appropriate box below. Ian, who have we got this week? This week we have a fantastic guest, Jorge Manuel Mollar, who is He's at well, he's at the heart of the COP thirty one process in terms of zero waste in the circular economy. He's also on the UN he's the well the vice chair of the z the UN Zero Waste Advisory Board. He's also an entrepreneur with considerable experience of running refillable schemes in Chile and beyond. So looking forward to hearing from him and Absolutely fascinating discussion. So over to you, Susi Manuel. So I'm Josemuel Chilean, based in the UK for the last five years and a little bit more. My background mainly is on the startup world. So as you were mentioning, I funded Al Gramo, a Chilean startup now 14 years ago. So I ran that company for 14 years. I had to shut it down last year because my partners, which are where Unilever Coke. Walmart Nestle, they decide to move away from reuse and they focus more on recycling, which also we could discuss here if you want. But at the end I end up with no customers, so I had to shut it down. But last year also I launched a company called Common House, which is a zero waste studio. So I group people that has been implementing solutions like me, entrepreneurs. So we have today thirteen entrepreneurs in residence that will help countries, cities, and organizations to implement zerowise solutions. So we are the step that goes after all the reports that we have. I don't know. I imagine I would assume that there's like UK twenty forty or London twenty forty five, zerowise plans, et cetera. So all all those plans are great because they're the basis of where we are working, but there's always end up and saying, okay, and we should implement X, Y, or Z. So that's when Common House comes in and we implement with different we work with startups, with technology, with entrepreneurs in residence and with some partners. So it We we're already working some some regions with that. But for this conversation, I think it's more relevant two hats. One, the one that you were mentioning, Ian. It's I'm the vice president of the advisory board on zero waste for the UN, for the Secretary General, which again is the first time that this advisory board exists. It's something that I didn't apply to. So they called me one day and they asked me if I want to be the the vice president of it. If I was gonna ask you how you got that gig, but it was just someone just I'm still waiting for someone to call me up and ask me to some some people was funny. Last year on the Zero Waste Forum, which is organized by the Zero Waste Foundation, where I advise as well. A couple of people approached me and said, Okay, why am I not part of the advice report on the on Zero Waste? I said, I don't know, it wasn't me, it was actually UNEP and you and Habitat picking the the names. But also you couldn't apply. So it's not something that there was like a website or a deadline. Randomly I received one day a call and they approached me all to all my social media and said, okay, so I won the lottery or I'm going to jail. But something relevant is happening. And then I realized that they were inviting me to be the vice president of this advisory board, which by the way is an amazing group. It's really a nice mix between first ladies from one side. Actually, the president of the advisory board on Seaways is the first lady of Turkey. So that that's that's also the reason why Turkey is so involved in in this. And actually answering your question from the beginning, it's not just the UN who proposed this advisory board, was proposed by the Turkish government in then assembly four years ago. So they took it and then as a consequence they built the the advisory board and that's why the first lady the still the president of the advisory board. I don't know why I'm the vice president, so they have to mix backgrounds, ages and regions, I would assume. I'm working on only on upstream on my career, so I'm trying to avoid recycling. That's my my focus and I have been putting that into the discussion on the advisory board. But we have a quite interesting mix from I don't know, Mohammed Yunus, the Nobel Peace Award from Bangladesh, to first ladies of Sierra Leone or Suriname, but also experts on recycling or supply chain academia as well. Working with me with the with the Champion as well. We have Carlos Silva, which is also and I'm moving to my my second hat. We are advisors to summit a Jirvas, the the champion of the Cup this year. So we have been advising the Syria Foundation, but also this year the the COP and particularly from the champion side. Which I know that actually the sentence that I said it could be already complex. So also happy to help in this conversation to double click on what is the Cop, how does it work? what could be useful that for everyone to know that this will be my first COP. So I had to learn everything from scratch the last month. So from nothing to be leading some topics. So I had to do the the homework. And I well let's start actually then with you explaining to us the difference 'cause you there's the president. Yeah. And there's the yeah. So explain that that separation. But so one step before even that. And first of all, this is on the disclaimer set. So this is my version of how I would explain it. I'm really practical. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm not from the UN. I'm not from any country. So I will be really concrete on how do I understand it and navigate it. So the first definition I would say that the COP has two worlds. One is the where the countries they negotiate the terms of the Paris Agreement, which are the state actors. And this year, for example, this is led by Australia. And we have the non state actors group altogether, which is called the Action Agenda. So that's the first definition. So that's So the the COP is the conference of the parties. Yeah. And the and the parties are that first group you mentioned, right? Even one step before, this is the climate cop because there are other cops as well. So actually it would start from zero again. So there's different cops out there that we have every year to negotiate different topics. The the oldest one or the most relevant one I would say is the climate COP, which is normally that how we refer to COP and this year is the COP thirty one, meaning that they have been all thirty COPs before this one. So that would be the most clean way to start. Then we have these two worlds. One is the countryside where the negotiated terms of the Paris Agreements, how to be more aggressive in terms of the commitments for countries, how we stop fossil fuels, how we promote upstream solutions, etcetera. So that's one world that happens. And it's really closed and is already only country driven. And we have the other part which for me I would say is even the more interesting part, that is the non-state actor that is called the Action Agenda. And the action agenda is led by the champion of the Cup always. And normally the negotiation is led by the presidency. This year, randomly, we have Australia and Turkey at the same time. So they gave Australia On the negotiations and ther the Turkish government has to have the action agenda. But the action agenda is lit by the champion. Okay. Okay. And the champion is always someone from the host country. In this case it's Samar Girvas, which I'm I'm the advisor on the Syraways topic for this year. I hope that that first step helps. Yes. Then now we can take the second one. So double do it. Ian, do you want to wanna mention something? I was gonna say, and you being the advisor, is that because I'm trying to make the links. Is that because you're on that UN advisory board? Good question. So how how my relationship with them started? the advisory board, it's a voluntary role, by the way. So we meet once per I don't know, twice a year, something like that. We have some projects, we develop some ideas. But last year they called me, the first lady team, to help them to create the first Zero Waste Forum in in Istanbul. last year in October. And that's when I started being an advisor for the foundation, probably. And then at the end of the year they got the COP. So this role evolves into the COP context, but it started before that. So that that's the link. So Turkey has they especially the first lady, they pick Sero Waste as her topic, as her legacy. And she has been pushing this since 2017 actually. Then as part of that effort is was the creation of the advisory board of Zero Waste for the UN. And then they create the Sea Waste Forum, which they invite me to be the program director. And then we had that edition in October last year. And because they got the COP, actually they asked me to do the other edition of the forum in June this year as a pre Cup event, which by the way will be every year now. A pre COP event officially focused on zero waste. So which is good news because we had from now on always a focus on zero waste for Cups, which will happen in Istanbul in June and it will influence what happens in COP. Then I will explain in detail how. But that that will be kind of now ongoing every year. So Okay. Well I don't think we'd realise. I mean that's amazing. So there's there's many good news on this c on this conversation and especially for the one focused on waste, I would say, because we're bringing in that at the center of the discussion and will be the year. this on the agenda. But guess I guess I mean for all of us in in our kind of circle economy and zero waste world, this this is still the really the first time some previous COPs have really been about energy transition, you know, decarbonisation, all of that. So this is really the first time we're we're really going to talk about the circle economy and materials. So I guess I'm I'm interested in how I mean How challenging is that within the court process? Have you ha have you got a sense of that at the moment? Because the whole apparatus and even expertise is all very much around the energy side. And that and that's fine. I mean, don't get me wrong, that is necessary, that kind of decarbonisation agenda. I'm not I'm not saying it's an either or, but we're suddenly bringing in which is quite a you know, very important, you know, it's not a kind of sideshow. You know, the the impact of materials in terms of climate is huge, you know, in terms of embedded carbon and all sorts of things. So as you know, so I guess I'm interested in how that is playing out within the kind of COP process. Yeah. So just to reflect how relevant would be. So some weeks ago they shared the thematic days for COP. So during COP, which again for this year will be from the ninth to the twentieth of November. It's always every year in November. This year will be from the ninth to the twentieth. The host country has to pick Thematic days, because there's so many things to discuss that they filter some priorities and they pick already their their priorities. And during COP, there's two days that they're the ones that get more attention to be more specific, which is called the Leader Summit. Meaning that they're the days that the president attends and most of the countries they put focus. So between the twelve thematic days that we have, the two ones that they're doing the leaders' summit are the most relevant ones. Why it's important to have thematic days? Because all the agenda of the COP focuses focuses on that thematic day. So we could be organized in terms of how we discuss that. Imagine that the range of things that we would discuss is huge. So someone has to organize this as every year the host country said, okay, out of all the topics that they're out there, I'm gonna prioritize these topics. So that is already published and public. But it's interesting that again, on the double click on the leader summit, that there are only two days. The first day, the only topic, it's zero waste. So all the COP and all the countries and all the president will have to say something about zero waste this year for the first time. So it's not just part of the COP, it's the main topic of the COP. So it will be the Zero Waste Cup. And that also it's important because once that you know in advance that that will be a topic you have to prepare and say, okay, what I'm gonna say. So I know if you invite me to your podcast and you send me okay, these are the topics, I have to be ready for that topic. So the same happens on the COP, which will force the world to put zero waste at the center, which is amazing. And for the people that we have been working around waste from different angles, it's quite relevant. And even more important is not just waste, and now we'll get into a topic if you want, it's zero waste, meaning that we should try to avoid waste in the first place. Not doing waste management, which I think is one of the biggest differences that we're trying to make this year. Yeah. So that's Which I know that excite you as well and I think it's the main topic. Hugely exciting. But again, that again it does lead on to the the waste bit, isn't it? You know, I mean let's unp unpick that a little because you know, I guess we could end up just talking about waste. I mean, absolutely we need to, you know, think about, you know, you know, specific waste management practices at a global level and how t how that should be improved. I mean, don't get me wrong, again, this is not an either or. But ultimately what we're really interested in is that upstream bit. So how do we make sure that we don't end up just talking about Yeah. Waste management practices, you know, as much as that is very important, you know, how can we make sure that we're all talking about that upstream, that we're not as you say, we're we're talking about the consumption of materials, the production of waste in a way that is about elimination of that of that, rather than specifically just about the management of it. I mean, if you feel confident that that that that's where we're heading? Yeah, let me let me use that that question to continue my explanation on what is a COP. Which I think it would be useful and it will it will answer your question because I I want to show you what we are doing this year, which is particularly interesting on on this topic. So remember that we have the negotiation area led by the countries and the non-state actors on the action agenda. The action agenda, what what it does? It has all the businesses, startups, NGO, funders, everyone that is not a state, all together working on how to provide solutions, how to implement that. related with the thing that had been discussed in the other group. Okay. And this action agenda last year got organized. So now it's much easier to understand. So it has a structure. Because imagine that the action agenda is all the efforts in the world related to solve the climate change. So today it has six different axis. Imagine this that could be ministries. So one the first one is energy, of course. But the number doesn't mean relevance, but it's a it's the first one is energy. The second one is biodiversity, oceans, land. The third one is organic waste and food waste. The fourth are cities. Cities quite relevant because it's where everything gets implemented. I know that for you guys it is also important. The fifth, it's people. So how this affects life, just transition, etcetera. And the sixth is a cross cutting is finance and enablers. So imagine that this is our kind of ministries on all the topics. Each axis has if you double click, they have activation groups. Which is like a more a sub theme of that ministry or topic. Okay. And today there are thirty different activation groups, which is more on a specific topic. And under those activation groups, there are something called plans to accelerate solutions, that they are implementation projects, concrete things. And today there are like hundred and twenty different plans to acceler accelerate solutions. Part of the work that we have done in the foundation this year, we analyzed all of those and what is the couple has been doing. And we realize, and now I'm getting to your question again, no, I d I haven't forget it, that we analyze and most of the passes they're on waste management, not on waste prevention. And actually one of the outcomes of this year we promote, and it was already it's already exist, the first pass the plans to accelerate solutions, focus on upstream solutions, which focus only on reuse and repair and redesign. So we we kept recycling out of because for us recycling is waste management, not waste prevention, especially on plastics. And so answering your question, we're trying to not just put the topic on the table, but also For the coming COPS to always have this angle. So we're doing three things that are going to be relevant. One, including some plans to accelerate solutions with the focus on zero waste and with a focus on upstream solutions. So already exists, was approved two weeks ago, the first plan to accelerate solution, upstream solutions. The second one, we'll have a plan to accelerate solution, a path, and we we could discuss more about this, is called Zero Waste Districts, which we're mobilizing capital for cities to implement waste prevention. And always match. The so those are the the new passes that they're gonna be created and it's kind of like an organic body that will exist for the coming years. So they have to report every year, okay, reuse and repair. What has been your contribution in the climate agenda, for example? So we don't need to be pushing every year to this exist. It's already exist and kind of forever till we we include it and we scale it. So that's the first great news. The second one. that the champion is announcing something called the Istanbul platform. The Istanbul platform is a way of packing all together the plans to accelerate solution that they have any relation with waste. Because from those 120, many of them they have some angle with waste. There's some from the ocean side, from river side, from forests, from industrial perspective, from cities. Many of them actually we were doing an analysis like between 30 to 40, they have a waste angle. So we're packing all of them together and saying, okay, guys, here's a clear agenda around waste. So climate and waste, they're really well connected. They're not two separate topics. If we reduce waste, and more important, if we avoid waste, we will contribute much more to the reduction on emissions. Imagine what we would do on methane with organic waste, for example. It's huge. In terms of emissions, methane is eighty, eighty times more worse than CO2. So whatever we do on waste prevention organics. It's the best effort that we could do. And that's part of the the main topics that actually will be for this year. So again, as a summary, we'll have zero waste as the main topic that everyone has to discuss on the Lear Summit. We will have these plans to accelerate solution. We will launch this Istanbul platform that is packaged, getting all the solutions around waste and mobilizing capital to it. So it's not just a speech, it's also mobilizing money in the implementation of this solution. And we will have every year the Zero Waste Forum. as the official moment where the Istanbul platform will report and will work around. So every year we'll say, Okay, Wayne, you were working on reuse and whatever. Okay, where are you? What do you need? What are your KPIs? Where where do we need to mobilize money? Where's the evidence? Why is working? What is not working? So all of that structure will exist for the first time and will be linked officially with the action agenda which is part of the COP. So all that didn't exist two months ago. And we this I mean this is this is amazing, right? Jose, this is amazing. So we you know, this is I guess beyond our wildest dreams when it comes to getting circular economy, let's face it, on the agenda and making those links towards to to climate change. I'm I'm doing a presentation or trying to present this to a waste audience next week and I've subtitled the presentation Turn off your mind, relax and float upstream because most people kind of like immediately think of circular economy and And they default to the to the waste management side of things, right? So so hearing you say this is really good. and just linking it to the previous podcast that we've done where we've heard about governance being really important, the need for transition brokers to make circular economy happen in the reality, it seems to me that the potential here is for the Istanbul platform to be a effectively a global transition broker. So can you tell us a bit more about how You pract you know, physically the Istanbul platform is structured. Who is on it? How is that appointed? What how does the money flow? How can you be part of it? All those kind of th I know that there's a there's a lot to unpack here, but yeah, this is amazingly interesting to us. I I haven't shared everything yet, but this is more or less where where we are. It's like a circular economy Christmas, this is. So the Istanbul platform, it's one or one step before. For me, what surprised me when I start working on this context of champions and cup? What is crazy that it's it's basic what I'm gonna say, but it's still crazy that every year we have a different country. So it's kind of having like a different government with different priorities. So what happens with the thing that we promised one year and then actually I don't know, next year would be Ethiopia. What happened if Ethiopia have a different focus? What happened if they don't want to focus as much in zero waste, for example, which is quite valid question. And they could they could wanna do it. So answer your question, how we secure to have this governance and how this would last and how this would work. So you normally have not only the initiative, also you have kind of a host, someone that it has the funding, the the strategy, the knowledge to support these different initiatives. So for example, the plans to accelerate solution, they have to have a host. The one hosting the upstream solution, for example, is Shape Foundation, led by Joe Pabineski from Uramia. So they have been they're gonna be the independent host of that path. And actually they're leading that. In terms of the Istanbul platform, it will be host the SyroWays Foundation, which already has a huge team, resources, a strategy to host this, and they also have the Syries Forum, which is the physical moment where every everyone meets. So in terms of governance, it's not something that will happen only this year. Actually, it's already from the beginning host by the Syrouys Foundation in the context of COP. But the good news that there's gonna be there's already a team and a strategy and and a funding strategy as well to to set up this platform. Now, if someone wants to be part of this, this worked through the again, the action agenda. So the action agenda is public, all the plans to accelerate solutions are public. If you have an organization you could apply to be one of them, there's no fee, there's no cost. The the focus on the plans to accelerate solutions is to implement solutions, not just to discuss about it. It's the whole point about the action agenda. So you could check once that we launch the details that I would assume they will be launching next week in New York, Clement Week. So the details it will be and the passes they're gonna be joining the platform. So that each pass has to decide whether they want to be part of this Istanbul platform or not. I would say all of the ones that I have been talking to, they wanna be part of it because it's a huge opportunity, especially for the world to have a storytelling showing that okay, all the waste effort is all the same and we should have the focus on waste prevention and then waste management. So when the the way of getting involved on this is through the action agenda. So you could check online where are the passes, who are the organization, who are the hosts, the they're approachable. And of course we're gonna be sharing many details. And this is the other thing that is quite relevant to for me to learn was, and maybe it's relevant for others, is the COP is kind of one moment in the year, but at the end the work happens through across the year. So that's why also it's quite relevant to have the Silwa's forum in June, because we'll kick off. this all of this conversation. But conversation meaning, I don't know, conversation between funders and organization. If you are part of an NGO and you have a focus and you would like to develop a project, you could approach the Zero Waste Forum, you could approach the Istanbul platform. Also, if you are a funder and you're looking for to put some money into waste prevention, this will be the way of seeing, okay, this is the portfolio of products or solutions that we we're trying to support. So at the end it's doing kind of this matchmaking platform. that will fit, I don't know, the the finance world, with the solution, with the government as well. So that that's the ambition of the Istanbul platform, which would be permanent and would be easier for the world to relate how to discuss and to work around search waste. I h that answered your question right. Yeah, I'm kind of blown away really to be fair. So but you said something else. There was a more there was more Yeah. So something that I haven't shared in detail, but I mentioned it. It's one of the main projects that we're launching is called the Zero Way Districts. Okay. Zero Way District, what is it? It's it's an effort that we're pushing this year to mobilize capital from multilateral, from private, from public sector. into CAPEX, meaning infrastructure to avoid waste at a city l at a city level. But we use the word district on purpose because we're not intervening the whole city. We want to test just in part of one city, to invest money, and then I will explain you how that will work. To do two things one to provide evidence that this could work at large scale in terms of the technology itself, but also to influence public policy. Kind of the problem that we have in the zero waste world that It's kind of the chicken or the egg. Everyone loves post-lead idea of search waste, but it's okay. But there's no evidence that reuse could be scaled. Repair could be scaled. But okay, but without regulation, how are we gonna scale those solutions? Because those types of solutions they require some kind of regulation to work on. At least that was my experience with you, reuse. So we are trying to solve that change that we have today. And we are working with organizations like the Myth and Hub, like the Green Climate Fund, of course the Zero Waste Foundation, with the World Bank, with other organizations. and countries to mobilize capital to invest at least on three things. One is organic waste prevention and management. So composting and and solution around food waste and food waste prevention. The second one, which we're calling upstream, which is focused only on reuse and repair. So there will be money and there would be investment on reuse and repair at sea level. And the third one we're calling kind of alternative to plastics and waste speakers. So trying to bring in the the just transition angle, but also how to replace plastic, because at the end, well, you know better than me, plastics is kind of a complex material. It's amazing in terms of the the solution that provides, but the from the waste angle is a is a huge challenge. So how we could avoid waste, avoid plastic with other materials like I don't know mycelium or seaweed solution, et cetera. So those are the three minimal topics that we're gonna be covering all the zero weight districts. But also each city could pick their own theme. Textile, electronics, construction, I know, even double click on on plastics or type of plastics, etc. And how this in concrete how this works? So we'll have twenty cities per year. So this year we'll have the first cohort. Yeah. Which we are already picking the first one. So there will be, for example, Malaysia will have two cities already confirmed. Brazil has two cities already confirmed. Chile has two cities already confirmed. Kenya has one, we're in conversation for the second one. Mexico is in conversation, Indonesia is in conversation. so we have twenty districts. And the idea will be to mobilize grant money mostly, so money to invest on CapEx. What does it mean this in concrete? Could be, I don't know, a composting plant for part of the city or a share infrastructure for washing for reusables, for example. Because at the end this will be owned by the city, but ideally run by the private sector. So that's a mix that we want to have. So imagine that, I don't know, in London, we could have a huge facility on washing for reusable cups or plates or whatever, but it's owned by your city. But then the entrepreneurs and the company, they could use it. Kind of when you visit a gym. You don't need to have one at home, but you could pay a little bit and use it, would be the same the same idea. So imagine that we have this shared infrastructure for re reuse. We want to build the network of repair that exists already in many cities, but is not published well or promoted well. We would have some relation with university or or labs to the implement the materials that they have been creating the university, but have an application in different cities. It has a main focus on the global south, but not exclusively. Because of the of the funding that we are receiving, it has a focus on the global south, meaning Latin America, Africa, and Asia. But also we want to have other cities from from the from the north. And every year, all of these cities they will meet in the Sero Waste Forum again. To share best practices, to share the report, to share the numbers, et cetera. And then next year we will launch the second cohort. And the idea will be have will be to have at least five cohorts, to have one hundred districts that they will have mobilized capital and investment on avoiding waste. So this not only be discussing about silver waste, it will be money concrete to implement solutions and to report what happened with those investments as well. Okay, I got one more question and I'll I'll in coming because I can see Ian's just like his head's exploding right now. sorry, but it's a lot Yeah, it's great. I mean so a lot of this has been hinted at and it's great to hear you kind of talk about it in detail because I think people will be surprised and interested, you know, people in my world, in our world, in our in our social economy will be really impressed by this. You know, for us, like I you know, I kind of started with Re London, this idea of in London of we called we called them zero waste neighbourhoods or circular neighbourhoods. And it it's definitely a a a kind of trend across the globe of like trying to think of doing this work at neighborhood level. And for me, those cities are able to kind of scale out for replication and then at the at the community level, at the neighbourhood level, scale deep if you like, and and go down and and touch citizens' lives. And then using the learning to influence upwards influence their their national governments. But where it falls apart is if the governments haven't put in place the necessary, as I think you would say, regulations, the law, made the the environment, the regulatory environment, suitable to sustain the kind of projects that we put in place. So what you the danger is that what you find is hundreds of pilots that do not link, do not scale. And therefore the kind of fertile ground that you've created becomes fallow. So given the two pillars at COP, the the parties and the action agenda, will the Istanbul platform act as that transition broker, bringing together those parties? How do you envisage that working? Exactly. first of all, the point that you are bringing is quite relevant because the way of scaling this work is not having ten thousand districts. That's not the the plan. The plan is to influence public policy. But public policy needs evidence. So we want to provide evidence at a local level that this works. And not saying, okay, it works in London, might not work in Santiago or in Rio or Jagarta. So we need to have local examples with local technology etc. So that's that's the aim. How that will work. First of all, and this is what I like about the approach that we're taking, we're not trying to convince anyone to work with us. So just we receive applications. So I'm not knocking the doors of a country that doesn't want to do anything on Syrawa, it's quite actually the opposite. So the countries that they're willing to do something, and there are many of them already, because normally the decision in the in the assembly in the UN, they have to be taken by a hundred percent of the country, they have have to agree on everything, which is on my view, it's a mistake on the mechanics of how it works. But how it will work in this case, we're gonna pick the ones that they're they're willing to do something already, which is great because they're committed. But part of the concrete requirements of what we are doing is First of all, they need to show political commitment to zero weight, not just mentioning. And me that means something written. Second, they should be willing to even give preference for zero weight solution within the district. So what kind of benefits they will have. I know you could tax the carbon dollar stick. So you could tax one or incentivize the other, but something has to happen at the local level. The third one, they will have to invest and put money, not just saying, okay, I want to receive money, but also you need to put part of your money as well. Otherwise everyone would be doing, I the the queue to to get some money. And that will influence that the policy level because we are working at a city level. For example, in Brazil, we're already in conversations, even though we haven't launched yet, but we present the product and this this fits so well in the Brazilian strategy that the they're already including this part of the policy discussion at as a district level. And the other thing that I haven't mentioned yet is what's even a district. Because a district could be everything and nothing at the same time. For in concrete, what does it mean a district? It's the aggregation of what we call actually this comes from from Common House from my my context, but what we call unit. What is a unit? It's a a physical building. Could be a hospital, a shopping mall, a hotel, a school, something that we could intervene. So at the end, for example, we we are working with Kuala Lumpur in Marija. And the district there, they already have the baseline saying, okay, we have Twenty hotels, two shopping malls, etc. And the intervention of district will happen in that concrete level. So at the end, I will have a conversation with the shopping mall owners and managers saying, Okay, this is your waste production. What we're gonna be doing about it. We're gonna show you this is the portfolio solution that you could implement. And the city is willing to invest money helping you, but it's not like a conversation in general saying, Okay, the whole city has to move one percent on I'm saying you I I have in front of you, you have the data, you have a decision maker, and you have a budget. What is interesting about waste, that one way or another, someone is already paying the cost. So we are doing waste management anyway. So the conversation is how we make that money more efficient and how we prevent waste. But that that's that's the level that we're getting to this. So even a zero waste means a group of companies and buildings that we're gonna intervene. So because this year it's the year of implementation. So every year the Cobb that tried to say that But this year the Syrouwed district is the way of implementing a staff. And connecting the DOS, the Istanbul platform that is the group of solutions, they will have a playground where to implement their solution into the zero white districts. Because that was the missing link. Okay, great. But where we're gonna work with this because we need like a kind of a playground where we could have the the conditions or the Capex to start working on this. That's where the Zero White district fits in and yeah, really, really interesting. I mean I'm kinda stopping myself, you know, my step and Wayne coming in saying, Well, that's really great but you know, and I guess I'm trying to just kind of understand a little bit more about it 'cause one, it probably refers to something you said earlier. and some of this I I admit is my own experience of working in Scotland or certainly in in a European context rather than you know, global south. But I guess so this really kinda resonates with me, the opportunity and and you know Wayne's the same, that we see the opportunity for delivery, circular economy solutions, upstream solutions at that city and district level. You know, I think, you know, we see that that and you know, some of the most successful penetration we got in Scotland was was working with the cities and regions to try and deliver things on the ground or or setting up things and creating that kind of ecosystem at a local level. So absolutely with you. Do you think I guess as well as having that ambition at that level in the min municipalities and mayors and elected officials and having the kind of entrepreneurs and the even not for profits really energized about it. But there is a need for big business in the middle of this as well. I mean, I guess you referred to your work in Chile with the Unilevers, the Coca Cola's and stuff. And I guess I I'd have that question, how how much are they engaged in this? I mean, I g I guess that was a question we've we've touched upon with other guests because COP is sometimes seen as the it's about nation states talking to each other and you've d you know, we've been pushing for cities and sub regional structures to be involved in that and obviously communities. But actually you do need these big players at the table to be on board because I'm not saying they can be blockers, but if they could come on board, these things are going to accelerate much quicker. I guess I'm just interested in those actors being involved and and, you know, are you involving them? Where are they in this kind of conversation? So again, this as context is one of the tools that we're gonna be implementing. It's not the only one. All of those companies that part of the discussion every year with their own agendas and with their own focus. I would say that today, from my view, most of them they're focused on recycling. Yeah. That's yeah. And then this is a personal opinion what I'm gonna say, because recycling today doesn't ch challenge the idea of consumption that we have today. So for everyone it's keep running the business as it is. So that's the the the reason why I think they're they're supporting that. Even though that we have evidence that particularly in plastic recycling is not working. I it's not going to work at the scale that we need. That said, I think that the district is so local that won't touch the scope of, I don't know, a large company like Unilever Coke has. That that's not the first. So we with the Serwey District, we want like to provide the evidence that this could be regulated. And then regulation will force the biggest player in those areas. Even though that today also we have, I don't know, the plastic treaty happening in in parallel, that might be the way to to to push this. But even though the discussion around the plastic treaty, it will require some evidence for regulating, I don't know, reuse and and unpacking, for example. So we're trying to help to provide from the evidence side. That's the the way that we are linking this conversation and to have the big picture, because at the end, if we want to move the needle and to move in volume, this has to scale at a as a national level. But we think that to get there, the first step is to start at at that district level. Maybe it would be like a long way to get there, but I think it's really concrete. And that's what I missed for at least from my view in terms of the COP, saying, okay, the outcome is always kind of the same. So the declaration, there are a little bit more one one, or one point more progressive than last year, but not that concrete outcome. And that's the angle that we want to bring this year. So all the other discussion. they would be there anyway. So we're there they're gonna be a discussion about fossil fuel which will be led by Australia this year. So that's also that that's why I want to I cannot comment that much on that side, because it's more on the Australia side, Australian side. But in terms of implementation on the action agenda, it's what what is more under the the champion which we're working with. But again I agree with you that at the end district they're not gonna solve the problem. Maybe they're gonna provide evidence and the best practices that then would be observing to policy to be in scalable. But policymakers, many of them they want to do this, but they don't want to be the risk of making a decision without evidence, which also makes sense. I think that okay, in this case we're talking about waste prevention, but what if they're making decisions on other topics without evidence? So also we would say, Hey, you need to have evidence of what you're doing. So I think it's it's fair enough to say, show me that this works and then we will regulate it. The thing is what is not fair that we don't have any playground where to test this at large scale, because this is not gonna happen happen with pilots. I run a company for fourteen years on reuse for plug-in, return and refill. I scale up in Chile, in the US, actually in the UK. That's why I'm I'm here. I scale it with I work with little. we implement it in Indonesia. I raise funds. I do I've done everything, all the models. And at the end, it's not possible without solving the context of those solutions, with its public policy, funding, city, etc. So many other things. That's why now I'm focusing on on a much more ambitious space to orchestrate the space for the next generation of solutions to thrive. And for that they need policy, a place, money, support, technology, different other things. So that's that's my focus now. Yeah, I d I I can see that. And absolutely yeah, I wasn't trying to be negative. I mean absolutely kind of answered that question because that was one of the other questions we had, you know, we've asked everybody because we've heard this kind of statement that this is about delivery, this is an action orientated COP. And we know we kinda say, well, so what how do you know how does that manifest itself? And you've kind of articulated that this this is about delivery. This is about going out and actually doing stuff and demonstrating, you know, the art of the possible to give policymakers the confidence that, you know, there is an alternative way of doing things, which is absolutely first class. So and I guess the another point to the question, and maybe this is more of a plea, and you'll probably hear this from other people. So you did say about funding being available, you know But again, CapEx, you know, investment in infrastructure, which again totally needed for all of the reasons you've said. I guess one of the things that, you know, we all we've noticed in our work is the it's actually you do need a bit of capacity in whether it's individual organizations, within communities or even within the municipalities themselves. Actually, you know, this idea of transition brokers, you know, this idea of people on the ground to do that, that's sometimes the real blocker, you know, while while we all have ambitions and we have entrepreneurs and we have people with ideas, how do you actually make these things happen? You know, and it's not just somebody applying for the funding, it's actually bringing all of these partners together within the district or within the city. And and I just wonder whether there was is there gonna be scope for, you know, as well as the CapEx, creating a bit more capacity in in the chosen districts or the chosen areas or even allow it again if the pipe pipe if you're creating a pipe of what do we call it, you know, twenty projects a year or twenty cities a year or a hundred districts a year, you you kinda want to be investing in, you know, upfront the supply chain of that, you know, so you've got projects coming through on a regular basis. I guess it's thinking about that that capacity gap that does I mean I guess again, that might just be particular to the kind of European dimension. But that's something that we yeah, we we do notice. In terms of the strategy for funding, I think that will be different solutions. One of them would be, for example, grants for the city to own some infrastructure infrastructure. Part of the definition of the district that recognizes, and maybe when you you will agree with this, that this type of thing happens at a city level. So they don't happen at a country level and it's not like a house level because you need to have volume and aggregation. So it's not like everyone will have their own solution at home. No, we need to have some shared infrastructure. And that's part of the role of cities. And and for us there will be some money that will go for cities to have some share infrastructure and the city will plan because they're the one planning the territory. But there will be other funding that could be I don't know, a loan or equity investment on startups or company. What what I think it's important to mention, at least based on my experience, at least subjective what I'm gonna say, but it's difficult today to ask the VCs or the capitalist world to get returns on solutions that haven't been proven yet. So my context was I have the BC's most focused on circular economy in the world, I would say. But even though what we're doing, we were kind of the front runners on the topic, and I didn't have any benchmark to compare with, I didn't have any anyone else that has experience of running risk company at large scale international level at that moment. So some some something important is to recognize that the type of investment has to match the type of risk. and the type of solution that we have. You you cannot ask for a reuse company to be a unicorn out of five years and to get 10 times return. That won't happen. Particularly when because when we talk about waste, this is highly we're connected with consumer behavior and change per country and takes time and needs to have a a local connection with the culture. So from my view that is particularly in reuse, if we double click on this topic, it will end up kind of recycling. So it has to be like private and public. So it has to be some coordination. So the city will provide some infrastructure, but also there will be private solutions running them and I know. But it won't be like, I don't know, you you buy something out of the shelf. Of course there's some so solutions that today exist that are great. But to really move the needle, they will require some coordination and that's the role of the city at city level. And the funding will have to match that context. So maybe it will be multilateral or country level money for cities to manage this. pay for the solution. There could be some investment once that is proof, but in the beginning it has to be more grant and risk taking. I know. Today I think we are approaching the wrong way or three or four years a ago we were approaching the wrong way, asking to be a unicorn on reuse, asking everything from the first year, which was impossible. And now you can see that my generation of entrepreneurs, most of us they have been closing or barely surviving because we had the pressure on being a like a Silicon Valley solution. But in the waste world we I was yeah, I mean I was involved in the a business and finance kind of s subgroup of the UK circular economy task force. And we spoke to a lot of entrepreneurs and there was definitely a disconnect between what the entrepreneurs felt and said. And then we spoke to a lot of funders and what they felt and said. And they were the funders were funding in a linear world. Of course they were. And the entrepreneurs, a lot of them, wanted to move to a circular world and And those two worlds often they collide where they meet is is very slim. and hence why you need that track, that parties track, that national government track to make the rules apply better to the circular world that that we all want. And I totally agree with you about the cities thing. That's that's where action happens, where stuff's where people live, that's where the energy is, that's where things happen. Yeah. But I feel that our circular world is one that prospers are around things like taking care of stuff, repairing it, refurbishing it, reusing it. Quite often those activities are regarded in the linear world as overheads. Overheads to be not necessarily cherished, but to be reduced. And that when we want to invest in recycling infrastructure, which is part of the linear world, that's capital, that's investment, something that we should encourage. So in in in what I'm trying to say is that the linear world encourages you to go to the first thing, which is build a plant to recycle it or dispose of it or burn it rather than to repair it, refurbish it and maintain it. What one thing that I was saying for the the last two share that will happen on this COP was to to give you the last good news that we'll have and it's related with this topic, Wayne. It's on waste on recycling it's much easier to measure because it's you see the the material flowing. But when you prevent waste, there's nothing to see because you prevent waste. So that's the whole point. So part of what we're gonna be doing this year, part of the reports that we are working on, the Championsign First LED, is to kind of work around the idea of avoided emissions. That's something that we we we're missing a metric. I don't know. If there's like a carbon map market, why don't we have a market for avoided emissions, for example? It's really futuristic what I'm saying, but we want to f build the first building blocks because it must be more efficient and economic profitable to avoid waste than doing waste management. What I'm saying is obvious, but today it doesn't happen, as we were saying. So what happened with solutions that are avoiding waste through reuse and repair? They're not getting any funding or any money, as we were saying, it's o over overhead. So Part of that comes from the data and the and the science behind. So we're working on that as well to reflect on the end of the year on this COP, we should start working and report every year on okay, how we could have a metric, a KPI market where we could put numbers on avoided emissions. And based on that, we could put money on maybe EPR then should include. Okay, instead of doing just waste collection for recycling, we could put some part of that money as France is doing on reuse or on repair, but based on numbers and impact. Not just on willingness to do it. And that would leverage and would create a market and would move maybe the investment needed for this space based on evidence as well. So I am I'm conscious of time. we probably need to bring this to a conclusion, although there's loads of things that we could just keep on talking about. We we needed we need a podcast too, don't I know a podcast after cop, yeah. We're gonna we're gonna have one after cop to analyze what happens. You're absolutely on. 'Cause I'm interested in that last point you just made because in rather in my past, I mean it was a rather crude initiative we had, but in Scotland we did have a waste prevention credit. Did we did develop a waste prevention credit to do exactly what you said, was to support particularly third sector organisations in reuse and repair to access finance. So we did so it'd be interesting to have that conversation with you and how we developed it with rather crude at the time. But it did it did create that kind of market for local opportunities. It doesn't exist anymore, but that's another story. But it might be something that we could we could talk about. So yeah, this is really really interesting, but I am very conscious of the time. But I think you You've just explained that all the way through the podcast in terms of 'cause you're actually working on it. I mean, you're actually at the heart of this. So you're not kind of to some extent a bystander in this process. You are actually at the heart of not just delivering beyond COP, but actually the COP mechanisms that you've you've outlined. But if there's anything else you want to add in terms of what you think that you've missed not telling us that is being kind of I'm not saying secretly developed developed. No but Yeah, no, I was gonna say, 'cause one of things is I mean, you've just shared all of this with us and, you know, some of that you know, we've we've tentatively heard a little bits and pieces around that. How I mean, I I don't think outside of a lot of people, this is known. I mean, I d I just don't think people are aware that this is coming. That this it's not an initiative. This absolute focus on zero waste circular economy is coming in the way you've described and the fact that it isn't just a one chance in a million. This is you're building infrastructure, governance, support mechanisms into you know, the Istanbul platform that'll continue. It will continue and it will drive action on the ground. So I guess that's a communication thing. I mean I mean obviously we we can help with that through the podcast. But yeah, I think that's really exciting. But clearly we need we need to get out there and make sure people are engaging with us. That has two explanations. One is that actually We're gonna start sharing this from now, actually. Next next New York Climate Week will be the official moment. And the thing is those moments you have five minutes to say thirty things. So it's just a sentence. So that's the good thing about podcasts. We have enough time to double click and to have questions and to dig dive into whatever we want. So this is the full version of what we're doing. And and we're in conversation to launch other things. So they're not confirmed yet. So the ones that I shared are already confirmed. They're part of the agenda. I'm trying to push for more and really ambitious and practical at the same time. So I'm trying to bring that angle on entrepreneurial perspective and focus on implementation for this COP. But yes, so there's still work to be done. Actually, we're trying to have the COP itself being zero waste as the event, which is a huge challenge because imagine that there every country or many countries have different pavilions and they bring in and they decide what to do with the materials and but we will have a zero waste restaurant in the COP, by the way, a zero waste museum. So there's many things happening in COP. So if you have a chance to attend, I recommend you to to attend if you're working on waste. This is the Disney World for Waste this year. Disney World for World. And this is the just as you were saying, the kickoff of another step. So the Gendom serway has been there for many years and now we want to recognize that and to include that into Cup. That's the the effort that we want to do. So we p we better bring this to an end. So you know we'll be going, right? So Ian and I are going. we'll be there. But and we're trying to blag any not blag is the wrong word, we're we're we're you know, there's a rush kind of to get people to speak and as as events and finalise, so we're trying to kind of reach out to as many people as possible to make sure they know we're there so we can be on panels or or whatever. So, you know, we're trying to help and influence in a positive way for circular economy and advocate as best we can. So, you know, any help you can be with that, Jose, we're we're here to help really. Another thing that I forgot to mention is quite important. There will be a zero waste pavilion in the blue zone, which three stages in parallel with topics and hosted by the First Lady and the Champion, which I'm part of the program director for that as well. So happy to discuss that. So there will be a full program. Every day there will be a zero waste discussion in three stages at least. So we'll pick each thematic days and we'll see it through the lens of zero waste. Cool. In a few weeks. Thank you. yeah, yeah, yeah. No. And well enjoyed enjoy New York. Thank you. Yeah, enjoy New York. Thanks for the invitation and congrats on the podcast. Yeah, yeah. Cheers, Jose. I mean, I'm speechless, really. I guess I d I think I'll need another week to understand and think about all of that. There's obviously more to come, but it sounds incredibly promising, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. No, it does. I mean it it and it we talked about, you know, we were kind of both at the start of this journey. It's wondering what an action caught. was really about, you know, what what what would that be different from to some extent, you know, previous COPs. And you've got something there, you know, and and in our in our space, in terms of zero waste and circular economy. It's so you've got something clearly coming on the back of that in terms of the bit of governance programme, you know, which is going to continue, you know, and build. So yeah, I think that's hugely encouraging. It is hard to take it all in, in terms of this, you know, it's it's it's happening in in real time. That's the thing. This this is an easy to say. There's more to come. So it's kinda happening. I suppose the issues that we will, you know, the themes through this podcast remain, which is getting so it's one thing setting it up. Yeah. Right. It's one thing setting up the go which is amazing. That's how we would like to see it, right? We would like to see a global inquiry transition broker. And the Istanbul platform sounds like they want to set it up to be a permanent part of the process, porting, evidenced. networking, brokering relationships at a global level. But that has to then translate into the actions that the parties take and that cities take in practical terms. And one thing we've heard is well I I would I would throw into the mix is one that there is this mood music around that don't talk about circular economy in the cop because it distracts action on on where the where we need to get to in terms of fossil fuel reduction. So that's one thing, which I I can understand that, but I think that's the wrong approach to take because we need both. We need electrical electrification and we need materials, right? And then the second thing is do the cities, do the implementers have the knowledge, capability and resources available to them to be able to do this when they're also focused on real world issues. And and so that's that's where the next phase I think will be, like making sure that those capabilities are available to cities in order that for them to implement some of the ambition that Jose talked about. Yeah, and I guess that was the basis of that question I posed around funding. And I know it's not just about funding, but it's about skills and capability as much as anything else. But it is that, you know, if you've got cities who we absolutely believe, you know, should be kind of at the forefront of this. Have they got the space to do this? Because they're doing other things and, you know, as we know in our world, you know, they're up they're busy delivering frontline services as much as as anything else. So have they got the space and the wherewithal to actually make this happen, you know, regardless whether there's funding, you know, available. And that's not just yet, that's that's probably a global challenge as much as it is Because because their expertise, quite rightly at the moment, is on managing waste. Is on Exactly. On making sure cities are livable because they're not drowning in mice, right? And exactly. Exactly. Downstream and that that's the statutory function, you know, albeit, you know, you know, at a global level is exactly that, yeah, to manage waste. And does it all, you know, for society, both from a health point of view and from an environmental point of view. So yeah. Yeah, I guess again, trying to stop being trying to pick holes in it, but yeah, that's the execution of the what you put in front of us is absolutely what we want to see. Yeah, the proof is in the pudding. How can we make sure that the not just the infrastructure but the capacity is there for people to take this forward, which I'm I'm sure will be, but yeah, we probably just need to if you know think about that. I guess Jose's not a Beatles fan. He didn't really get my turn off your mind, relax and float upstream. Comment but you know, I mean that's it requires a different mindset, doesn't it? and a different skill set. A completely different skill set, in fact, as we've discussed, to move from managing downstream to to managing upstream. And and it also probably requires to do it properly, a horizontal view through government and city depart cities. Well exactly. And that's I mean and that's the thing we didn't we all agree that there's, you know, cities need to just get on and do this and probably want to do it. But we all know that there is a there is still that what do you want to call it, you know, interface between what cities do and what national governments kind of allow to happen, so to speak, in terms of the environment that they create, the policy that they create. So I think that'd be an interesting thing still to explore. How does that 'cause I'm trying to think I I guess you were always thinking from a UK perspective, you know, how does all of this really matter? To the UK government, to the Scottish government, what are they going to hear when they go to court around this? What is gonna what's gonna what's gonna help them, if you know what I mean? You know, how are they gonna feel energized by this like we are? You know, because they still have a role, don't they? They can't just turn around and Well, it's nothing to do with us anymore, just let, you know, Glasgow or London crack on with it. They they do have a role in terms of No, they absolutely do. We can't like I was saying to Housa, I firmly believe that. It's like you can You can generate all this really good learning and and good examples, but it can't scale effectively and permanently unless it's kind of an obvious thing to say, really, unless the conditions are suitable for that thing to scale. So we can show what you need to do, but the that's the government's role, right? So cities are being hampered by a lack of of appropriate conditions for these circular economies. pilots to scale. That's that's what I believe. And so this initiative, this this global initiative through COP is really to be welcomed. And to try and join the global or the party, the national, to the action, to the implementer, to be the transition broker for that, I think the Istanbul platform is something that we need to pay a bit more attention to. Yeah, no definitely. But you're right. So state governments have to be involved. So you could argue the European Union needs to be involved if you think about c the wider context of Europe in terms of policy and harmonisation of EPR schemes and even a global level, going back to my question about the Unilevers and the Coca Cola's of this world, you know, they they probably want a bit more of a harmonized approach in some respects, potentially. So what how do we play them into it as well, I think? Yeah. Yeah, but it's yeah, usually positive. Let's do it about it. And it's just amazing to hear it. Shall we cancel our ticket? Do we need to go on? Do we need to go? Yes, we need to go. We of course we need to go. Because I think there's there's even just a reporting basis here. You know, I mean at that point in the end, I still I d you know, I'm not saying we're the only people talking about it, but it does feel like it's it's it's limited at the moment in time. So there's probably a bit of work to be done. So if there's anything we can do through the podcast or otherwise, to just broadcast what's actually happening, what's being established. Yes. And how that will help, you know, with the intent to reshape and re-energize, let's be honest about it, re-energize how we talk about the circular economy, how we can watch the circular economy, watch the art of the possible, see these projects and initiatives establish themselves and go forward. Yeah, I think it's hugely exciting. Yeah, agree. Just to just keep that that positive vibe. Okay. So it's a good place to end. Very positive podcast. We'll we'll have to get this published ASAP. And I think we've agreed and Jose's agreed that he will come back. So we'll publish this and make sure it's in the public record and therefore he must come back. Yeah. We'll do a we'll do a post cop wash up and see, you know, we'll take a temperature at that stage. But so I think we're gonna say goodbye at this point, aren't we, Ian? We are. and thank you for listening. And That was I am Ian Golland and he was Wayne Hubbard. Like and subscribe. There we go. Done.