Latest / Justice Team Podcast / From JAG Officer to Private Practice with Spencer Wolfe - Part 1

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From JAG Officer to Private Practice with Spencer Wolfe - Part 1 · Justice Team Podcast

• 0:02
  Hey, it's Bob Simon taking a break to tell you about CallRail.
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• 0:34
  Welcome to this episode of the Justice Team Podcast on the Justice Team Network.
• 0:37
  I am your host, Bob Simon, and today we're gonna be talking to Captain
• 0:40
  Spencer Wolf, who is a lawyer, a JAG officer, worked for the department of.
• 0:45
  Defense worked with the US attorneys, has wor multiple hats within the
• 0:49
  military, is now going off into private practice, but still holding
• 0:53
  on to your career in the military.
• 0:55
  Um, welcome Captain Spencer Wolf.
• 0:58
  Thanks for having me, Bob.
• 0:59
  Excited to be here.
• 0:59
  Yeah.
• 1:00
  Did I cover
• 1:00
  everything
• 1:01
  there with the resume?
• 1:02
  Absolutely.
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  And, and, uh, I'll clarify a couple of points to that.
• 1:05
  Yeah.
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  But ultimately, yeah, it's.
• 1:07
  That's a fair summation.
• 1:08
  Yeah.
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  So some of the things we're gonna cover in this episode is what it's like to work for
• 1:12
  the federal government, um, what it's like to also represent human beings that are,
• 1:18
  you know, within the process we're gonna talk such things as, um, private prisons.
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  We're talk such things as federal prisons.
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  'cause Spencer was there for some of those.
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  Um, what it's like to.
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  Do secretive work yet?
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  Stuff that is open to the public.
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  'cause when you try a case there, it's all public record, right?
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  Still.
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  Yeah.
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  So a a all those cases have, uh, a public record system have opinions that come out.
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  Have, um, there are many of the cases that go through the, the military court
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  marshal system are up for automatic review if, um, the person is sentenced
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  to more than six months or if they receive a bad conduct discharge.
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  Um, so they're, they're constantly being kind of forward facing.
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  So are you, I mean, so what is your current role there?
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  Like what does, how does that work?
• 2:01
  Sure.
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  Um, and I told you I had to do a, a, a little bit of a, a carve out here.
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  So I want to do that just as a, uh, disclaimer.
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  So everything I'm sharing here is about my experience, but it's exclusively
• 2:12
  my opinion and, and my, my viewpoints.
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  I, nothing that I'm sharing today is a part, you know, is ascribed
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  to the DOD, the Department of the Army, or the Jag Corps.
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  Um, so wanted to, to highlight that we have certain limitations as far as.
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  Um, engaging in political speech or any kind of those components, but more
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  than happy to kind of talk about that.
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  Um, so my current position, so what I've just transitioned, I actually just
• 2:36
  left active duty on the 15th of July.
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  Received my DD two 14.
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  That's the official form, uh, indicating the stop of active duty.
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  And I'm in the process of in processing to a reserve unit.
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  Um.
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  I left active duty as a defense counsel, which is a role for a captain operating
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  as a, essentially a public defender.
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  Um, and I'll be doing that same role but for reservists.
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  So still logging my time, um, but it provides me a lot of flexibility so that
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  I can continue to represent soldiers when they're facing adverse actions,
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  um, usually on the administrative side and make sure they have
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  representation to, to back them up.
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  Well, and
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  you went to Pepperdine Law School.
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  That's how we know each other.
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  At New Spencer, when he was in.
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  Law school, we were trying to recruit him to work for a firm 'cause he was such a
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  star and the guy went off to work for the federal government to become a Jag off.
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  I, you know, it.
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  There were, there were so much about the legal field that I wasn't familiar with.
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  I, I'm the first, uh, for my immediate family to graduate from college, first
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  to go to graduate school of any kind.
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  Um, and so I was really navigating the legal field of my own.
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  And, um, before I really got the opportunity to connect with you, I
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  did a summer internship with the law firm that I, I liked the practice,
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  but the environment, um, didn't seem like the right fit for me.
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  And so I was looking for a team, um, team type of environment and.
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  I had been interested in military service pretty much my whole life.
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  My grandfather was Marine, my brother was in the Navy for 10 years.
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  I've got cousins that have served all my life.
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  So I was always cognizant of that.
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  That felt familiar.
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  Um, and I kind of knew I wanted to get outta California a little bit and
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  explore and see a little bit more.
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  And my wife was willing to jump on that board with me.
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  So, um, yeah, I, I, I took a dive at that.
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  I thought that was gonna be fascinating and it really
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  was.
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  Um, and you know, one of the things we'll talk about with.
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  We've heard in the news recently in, in Florida where they have alligator
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  Alcatraz, where they're going to train JAG officers to be immigration
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  judges to make quick decisions.
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  Um, I haven't been able to see any like, real follow through with that yet.
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  But is that, does that something that happens?
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  I mean, how does that kind of work within.
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  So after that specific utilization, specifically for like an immigration
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  court, that's not something that I've seen before, nor did I really see
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  any action being directed that way.
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  Um, most of those decisions really get held at a much higher level.
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  Um, and then as it feeds down to us, um, we have to just start
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  familiarizing ourselves with.
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  What are our responsibilities?
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  Where's our authority and how do we operate from there?
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  The closest that I can give you is as a captain, if you're working in what we call
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  the ad law or administrative law shop, um, you can be assigned as a magistrate, um,
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  for the federal, for the military judge that's assigned to your installation.
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  And so when individuals are seeking search warrants, you can authorize them.
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  Um.
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  And it's only exclusively to those that are subject to Title 10.
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  That's the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and that applies
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  specifically to service members.
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  So it's in a narrowed scope in that sense.
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  So seeing them operate as immigration judges, um, while still in a federal
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  realm, much like the military courts are, I think expanding out towards
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  having authority over civilians.
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  I haven't seen that.
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  Yeah.
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  And
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  you know, just turning the page a little bit here.
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  Where I assume you've been stationed all over the country of world, right?
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  Sure.
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  I know you five weeks had another baby here and, you know, juggling young
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  family, military career, being a lawyer.
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  Where have
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  you been stationed?
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  Um, so I'll kind of give you the, the quick run through as far
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  as locations I popped through.
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  So when I initially joined, um, the practice for bringing on,
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  uh, judge advocates is, it's an abridged or shortened, um.
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  Commissioning process.
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  So normal college graduate wants to commission to be
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  a, an officer in the Army.
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  They have a 13 week basic course, and then they'll have their advanced
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  training, um, where they get trained in their specialty for attorneys or they
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  recognize that, look, we are not gonna be front lines, we're not gonna be in
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  commander positions leading soldiers.
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  We need to familiarize you so you know what to do in the field and not get
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  in the way and not be a liability.
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  So we did a six and a half week training course out at Fort Benning in Georgia,
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  just outside of Savannah, um, where they teach you land navigation so you can
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  navigate with a map and a compass and know how to get to a certain location.
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  Uh, we had a, a. Week spent on weapons training specifically for
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  the, the M four assault rifle.
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  Um, so we had to qualify and make sure we could shoot sufficiently
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  enough to be out in the field.
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  Did you ever kill a guy?
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  I have not killed anybody.
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  Okay.
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  I haven't shot, uh, haven't shot a live round at anything but a
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  piece of paper out in the field.
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  Um.
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  But it is really interesting 'cause it's not just, you know, like a
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  firing range that you would see.
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  It's, um, for that qualification specifically, it's you have targets
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  anywhere from 25 meters to 300 meters out.
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  You have.
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  I think it's approximately four minutes to go through 40
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  targets in different positions.
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  You start standing unsupported, you go into a laying down prone position,
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  fired a number of targets, transition to a prone, supported on a sandbag,
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  transition up into a kneeling position, and then up into a standing position.
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  And so you're constantly moving, changing magazines.
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  Um, but it was, you know, you get to play soldier.
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  Yeah.
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  For people that
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  are watching or listening, you know, if you are coming in.
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  You went to law school, you're not in active military at that time.
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  You then turn that switch and I assume you're treated a little bit differently.
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  Not only going to an officer school, but also like psychologically with all
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  the other people that are, that have gone through the process of being in
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  the military and all of a sudden you're popping up, oh, I'm, I'm an officer.
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  Like, how's that go down?
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  So absolutely.
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  And there's two major components to that.
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  One being an officer already.
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  Um, there's the dichotomy between enlisted soldiers and officers.
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  Officers are, are by the customs and courtesies of the military
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  provided a certain level of respect.
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  And so you add onto that, that when you're.
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  An attorney who, so there's multiple ways to enter the military as a, as an
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  attorney or become a judge advocate.
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  But the most common is direct commissioning, which is what I did.
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  I've completed law school, I got myself licensed, and then I was brought into
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  the military immediately to be a a judge advocate, they accredit you
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  with the time that you had in law school towards your time and service.
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  Oh, wow.
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  So I was credited for three years.
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  Um, towards my rank.
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  So instead of starting the first officer rank in the military, at
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  least for the Army as a second lieutenant, um, I jumped that rank,
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  was a first lieutenant in training.
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  And six, roughly six months after completing my training,
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  I was promoted to captain.
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  Wow.
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  So very quickly you're in a position of a captain.
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  It, most other officers have, um, four to six years service time.
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  They're already leading soldiers that are in positions where they have.
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  Uh, thousands, if not millions of dollars of property that they're responsible for.
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  Hundreds of soldiers they're leading and dictating.
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  And so people see your rank.
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  They don't know your, your job or your branch specifically, and they
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  assume that you are in a position of high power for other officers.
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  Judge advocates are constantly a point of, of counsel.
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  They're just, they're some that rely on terrible, you know, considerably.
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  Um, one of the things I enjoyed about it is that.
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  For all of the special officers of special branches that exist to help
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  leaders, help commanders make decisions.
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  Um, my experience was, or at least it's taught within the judge advocate branch,
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  we are the people at the table that will say no, when you're surrounded by yes men.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Um, and so I always appreciated having that opportunity to say, look, I, it's
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  not my decision to make, it's not my call.
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  This is your decision.
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  I'm just trying to inform your decision to the best I can.
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  And if you can't do it.
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  I can't say, oh, stop.
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  You just can't.
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  I'm gonna tell you all the reasons it's a bad idea and I'm gonna
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  come to you with an alternative.
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  And so that was constantly the position I found myself in that I enjoyed.
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  Yes.
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  But what was, I mean, I assume there was some str, I mean, some
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  frustration that you probably had, for lack of a better term, you know,
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  representing, I mean, I'm sure you've seen things that you thought were just.
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  Horribly inappropriate.
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  Probably some things that were very good, like, can you just walk?
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  Because some people have no idea.
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  They're just civilians like I am.
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  Like, what?
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  What is that like, dude?
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  Absolutely.
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  So, um, and I, for a portion of of my time in service, I
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  actually taught a class, um, to.
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  Soldiers about understanding the military structure.
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  So there's the common ones that those that are connected to the military world
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  or the the legal world are familiar with are trial courts or appellate courts
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  that structure the elements of a crime.
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  But there are unique military components that if you're in the military,
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  you absolutely have to be aware of.
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  And that's, you know, offenses like, uh, malingering.
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  If you fake an injury or an illness to not go to work, you
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  can be charged with a crime.
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  Wow.
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  Um, there's failure to report.
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  If you don't show up at the time we told you to in the uniform, we told you to,
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  we can charge you with a crime if you don't go to your doctor's appointment,
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  which was your ascribed place of duty.
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  I can be charged as a crime under the UCMJ.
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  So common things that, that civilians or, or you know, that those living
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  a normal life, you're like, dude, I missed a doctor's appointment.
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  Shucks.
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  It is what it is.
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  In the military, you'd see commanders that understood.
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  Why did you miss I, my car broke down.
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  I couldn't get there.
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  I was calling, you know, my supervisor.
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  I was calling my my leader for help and they know what was going on.
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  Okay.
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  You let us know.
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  We get it.
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  Stuff happens.
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  That's fine.
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  I saw other leaders.
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  Look, you missed two doctor's appointments.
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  That means that we are putting you in for punishment.
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  And the, the wow, the means by which they could issue punishment, especially
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  when you're talking about lower enlisted soldiers, you never see that be abused.
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  I assume you could, you
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  could, almost anything could be a crime, right?
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  That's, so that's the point is, um, or, and this is me as a defense
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  counsel, this is the mentality that I had that that really started to
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  take over my latter time of services.
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  I watched Commanders say, oh, you know what I'm gonna issue?
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  It's called Article 15 Punishment.
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  So under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, article 15 provides
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  commanders can issue a type of punishment depending on how superior
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  the officer is, the higher punishment they can impose at the lowest level.
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  A company commander, um, if you are of a very low rank, they can take your rank.
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  They can take a certain amount of your pay for the, uh, for the month.
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  They can force you to do extra duty or work extra hours, or
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  they can put you on restriction.
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  They can tell you you can't go off post, you can't go anywhere after work hours.
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  Um, so the authority that they have and the means by which they owe to impose it,
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  somebody missed two doctor's appointments or they showed up late for PT at six 30
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  in the morning, two days this week, and they want to take a week of their pay.
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  Wow.
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  And have these soldiers come to me and I say, look, help me understand
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  what is your financial situation.
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  Do you have a car payment?
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  Do you have a phone payment?
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  Do you have an insurance payment?
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  If your commander doesn't know what's going outta your bank every month, and
• 13:25
  that if they take this pay, you've, you failed to pay your bills, you, you,
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  you're now gonna lose your cell phone.
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  You're gonna lose your car.
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  That should matter to them, and that's, you try to make that, that persuasive
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  story of at least, look, if you think I need to be punished, great.
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  Please don't tip punish me in this way because it's gonna hurt
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  me so bad that I can't recover.
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  I had many, many commanders that we pitched that story to and they understood
• 13:49
  and they would, they would match.
• 13:50
  Sounds like you're
• 13:51
  just doing a lot of like mediation, like it sounds like the commanders or
• 13:55
  people higher rank could abuse their power, so they wanted to, but if you
• 13:59
  made them understand the other stuff that's going on, you could change it.
• 14:03
  I mean, ideally that's would be the
• 14:05
  Sure.
• 14:05
  I, I think.
• 14:07
  I think my experience has been, and I, I, I would tend to
• 14:10
  believe that you agree with me.
• 14:11
  If I'm not standing in a courtroom, most of what I'm doing is mediating.
• 14:14
  Yeah.
• 14:14
  And, and it's mediating the, you know, expectations of my client
• 14:18
  or mediating the, the authority of why for a lot of people.
• 14:23
  And so, yes, these commanders, I could see them just firing things away and,
• 14:27
  and taking action towards people.
• 14:29
  Even when I was the one advising commanders, I had ones that wanted to.
• 14:33
  Throw the book at people and I'd sit there and say, can we
• 14:35
  have a conversation about this?
• 14:36
  I don't.
• 14:37
  I don't love actioning this.
• 14:38
  I don't think it's good for the people that you're leading.
• 14:41
  It is, again, it's your call, but I'm gonna have a conversation with you
• 14:45
  because I feel like it's my obligation and I feel like it's my job to try
• 14:48
  and help put you in a better position.
• 14:50
  I may not have as much military experience as these leaders, but as somebody
• 14:54
  who went into law school a little bit later, worked in the real world has has.
• 14:59
  Really tried to develop my, my interpersonal skills or
• 15:03
  soft skills understanding.
• 15:04
  How do you motivate people?
• 15:04
  Well, yeah, I mean,
• 15:05
  let's talk about where you, what you did before you went to law school Sure.
• 15:08
  And working on those inter person skills.
• 15:10
  Like what, what were you doing to work on those inner people
• 15:12
  skills before law school?
• 15:13
  So, um, it was a lot of the restaurant industry.
• 15:16
  Yeah.
• 15:16
  Actually, I, uh, I bartended and I waited tables.
• 15:19
  Um, I got into the restaurant industry at 19, after my freshman
• 15:23
  year of college didn't go so hot.
• 15:24
  I was at community college just trying to, to figure out what the next step was and.
• 15:30
  I, I didn't love public speaking at that stage, but you force yourself
• 15:34
  to walk up to a group of strangers, Hey, how's everybody doing?
• 15:37
  What can I get you started with tonight?
• 15:39
  You do that enough and you start realizing, you know what, it's not so bad.
• 15:42
  We ended up at a, um, a bar one time in Westlake where you used to worky.
• 15:46
  Yeah, yeah.
• 15:47
  Remember that.
• 15:47
  Um, but you, we were talking off air today that I think you drove, you were state.
• 15:51
  Last station was Kansas.
• 15:53
  Yes.
• 15:53
  Sorry, I know you were asking about stations.
• 15:54
  Yeah, we always go
• 15:55
  with because I apologize.
• 15:56
  So, uh, so from Fort Benning, Georgia, I went to Charlottesville, Virginia.
• 16:01
  Um, so it was actually on the UVA campus.
• 16:04
  Um, the Army has the only legal center in school in the military, so they have their
• 16:08
  own permanent residence on the UVA campus.
• 16:10
  I studied there for about three months.
• 16:12
  Um, and then I got my first official duty assignment, and that was to Fort
• 16:15
  Bliss, Texas, uh, located in El Paso.
• 16:18
  So West Texas, which worked out somewhat well for me as
• 16:21
  much as it's a little isolated.
• 16:22
  I had family there, my dad was born there.
• 16:24
  Um, so easy transition.
• 16:27
  Within six months I was asked to go on a rotational deployment to Korea.
• 16:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:32
  Um, so I was stationed in South Korea for nine months by myself.
• 16:34
  My wife was, uh, left behind.
• 16:36
  Um.
• 16:38
  And she actually went back to California and stayed with family.
• 16:40
  I completed that.
• 16:41
  I spent another 15 or so months in El Paso, and then I got my next change
• 16:47
  of duty orders to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, and I spent the last two years
• 16:51
  that I was there at Fort Leavenworth.
• 16:53
  Um, and then with the role that I had, I would bounce around quite a bit.
• 16:56
  So I took cases at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs, um, one at Fort Knox
• 17:02
  in Kentucky, and then representing clients in a couple of different areas.
• 17:06
  I traveled to Illinois once, um, 'cause we just cover a region,
• 17:10
  cover anybody who qualifies.
• 17:11
  Yeah.
• 17:11
  And I
• 17:11
  recall you were, uh, working for, um, a person, well, defending somebody I
• 17:16
  think in Colorado that was kind of there for, they weren't supposed to be there.
• 17:20
  Um.
• 17:22
  Colorado?
• 17:22
  No, he, so his unit was located there, that that individual was correct.
• 17:28
  Um, that was just a, a, a unique, again, experience because I was working
• 17:35
  with a civilian defense attorney.
• 17:36
  The client had hired a civilian defense attorney, but the army still provides.
• 17:41
  Our services if they request it.
• 17:42
  So I was working with a civilian as well as, as you know, having my
• 17:47
  independent attorney responsibilities for a client and navigating developing
• 17:52
  a strategy with somebody that, that wasn't, wasn't a military member.
• 17:56
  Um, super unique experience was week long trial complicated,
• 18:01
  uh, insurance fraud case.
• 18:03
  Um, that was a great experience.
• 18:08
  Very trying.