Latest / Agentic Conversations (formally mlops.community) / From A Coding Startup to AI Development in the Enterprise // Ryan Carson // #231

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From A Coding Startup to AI Development in the Enterprise // Ryan Carson // #231 · Agentic Conversations (formally mlops.community)

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All right, I am Ryan Carson and I am helping Intel build a
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global community of AI developers.
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And I love coffee Black as often as I can drink it, which is at
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least like 6 times a day. Welcome back to another MLBS
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Community podcast. I'm your host, Dimitrios, and
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this episode was very special for me.
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I got to interview someone who made an impact on my life so
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long ago, and it turns out they are a listener of the show.
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And because of Twitter Slash X, we got in touch and we are here
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talking with Ryan Carson, the one and only Ryan Carson who
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created Treehouse, which is how I started Dibble dabbling in the
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tech world. I saw him on the Interview
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Series Foundation with Kevin Rose and I was literally just
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scrolling through all the different interviews that Kevin
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Rose did back in the day on his Foundation series.
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It is incredible. He was talking with Ben
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Horowitz. He also talked with Biz Stone
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and there was another one so wild how early he was in
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everything. He was talking with the Coinbase
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CEO, Brian Armstrong, Ohh Malik, and each one of these different
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episodes that I would watch and I would see when they come out,
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I would go down the rabbit hole of the person because I felt
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like ohh well, if Kevin's interviewing them then there's
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probably something worthwhile there and I should check out
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what these people are doing. So Ohh Malik comes on and I
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started reading Giga Ohm, you were the first one ever was with
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Jack Dorsey and then they did another one with Chad Hurley,
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the YouTube founder. So I would just go down the
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rabbit holes like who are these guys?
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What do they do? Because I would listen to them
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for an hour or half hour. This was the first time that I
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saw an interview with Elon Musk. They're on the factory floor of
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Tesla back in like 20/12/2011 and Kevin's asking him about the
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Hyperloop that he put out drawings for.
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So Needless to say, this had a big impact on my life,
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especially when I was in my 20s, living in Spain playing a lot of
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guitar. And I got to talk with Ryan who
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was on there and he talked about what he did with Treehouse and
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in that time he was in the thick of it, creating Treehouse.
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He ended up staying with Tree House until, as he says in this
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episode, until 20/21. He sold it, and he's since
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recently joined Intel because he's so passionate about AI
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development and empowering people to leverage AI.
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This conversation took all kinds of fun and quirky turns and
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twists, but I will say there were two pieces that I took away
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from it. One being that he gave a lot of
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sound advice on If you're just playing with stuff, if you have
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these skills, there's never been a better time to ship something.
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The speed at which you can ship a product and a company has
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never been easier. And that is very cool to see how
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he has that entrepreneur in his DNA and it was almost
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contagious. And the second thing was now
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he's at this big company, he is living the life of an Intel
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employee and he just said something that is said in many
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ways. The the truth is 1 expressed in
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many ways, the wise know it in different words.
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Perfect that proverb and it's Tie yourself to the top level
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Okr's that the company has and figure out how your Okr's can
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affect those. So we've heard it said a million
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different times. It is.
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Find a number that the company cares about and see if you can
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move the needle on that number. Let's get into it with Ryan
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Carson again. This is very special for me and
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as always, if you enjoyed it, you like it.
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Give us a like, give us a share, subscribe or just give us some
4:21
feedback on Spotify because I've been reading all the feedback
4:24
that comes through. See you on the other side.
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I have to come out the gates and come clean with everyone and say
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that this is a bit of a I had to pinch myself being on here
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talking to you because 12 years ago I was really into this
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podcast. I was one of those weird ones
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that liked podcast 12 years ago. I still.
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Absolutely. Devour Podcast early as always.
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I was very early and you were even earlier because you were
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the guest on the podcast that I was listening to.
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Yes. And so it was.
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It was the Foundation series by Kevin Rose and you had been
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running Treehouse. The.
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It's like a website or a coding learning institution.
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I watched that episode and I went and I immediately was like,
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I think I should learn how to code.
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It seems like, you know Ryan's making it sound like it's
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possible to think you know, all the mental blocks in my head
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have like, ohh yeah, that's for really smart people and I don't
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know if I could do it. Then I saw some of the preview
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stuff that you had on Treehouse and I just dove in.
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And now I get to actually talk with you.
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So it's full circle. Man, this is amazing to metros
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like and it's so you are the reason why I started the
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company. Folks like you to open that door
5:54
to say maybe I could do this. Like maybe I don't need to be a
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super computer nerd or a super, you know, electrical engineering
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guy or or or really good at math.
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Like my whole goal is say, you know what, Anybody can do this.
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And so I got goosebumps. You told me that.
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And it's it's so fun to be on the show.
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I listen to it all the time while I'm working out and
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sweating. Your guests are strong, are way
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smarter than me. So I'm a little nervous, but
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I'll try to offer value. Exactly.
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Exactly. I will tell you what the I
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remember the thoughts that were going through my head like that
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were impeding me from thinking that I could code.
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And it was almost like this idea because I had, when I was in
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middle school, some friends that would, they knew how to build
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websites and so I would watch them.
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Yeah, exactly. The middle school kids there.
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And this was like, I remember in middle school we were using like
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Ask Jeeves, That was the coolest thing that was going on.
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And we thought it was amazing with the little logo, the Jeeves
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guy. That was the first so much tea.
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That was the original, you know. Ask GG BD.
7:03
Somebody should bring that. Back actually that would be.
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Classic. So, so I saw them doing that and
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I was like, well, I guess I missed the boat.
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I can't code. I don't know how to put together
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websites since middle school, Like I'm not going to be able to
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do it. And it just so happened I was in
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Spain and I had a lot to do. I my fingers were sore from
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playing too much guitar and I was like, well, let's see if I
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can actually do this coding stuff I love.
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It and ironically because you are musical, it probably was
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actually easier than you thought.
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There's a lot. Yeah, beautiful connections
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between math and coding and and I actually think it bleeds into
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like the beauty of the universe that there is like this
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universal universal language of of math that connects you know
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everything and it ends up you know and then This is why I love
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like I like I just can't believe you can teach machines to to
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think with math. Like it's just ohh it gives me
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good sounds. It's super.
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Tough. Abstracted from math to
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language. Yeah.
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Wow, that was very special. Yeah, that.
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Well, another thing that I loved about Treehouse.
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And then we can, we can move on. And I can ask you what you've
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been up to since then, but the the thing about it was that I
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was always appreciative at how highly produced and like how
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serious you took the online course because this was, I don't
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know, this was probably like 20-12, yeah, around that time.
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Around 2011. 2011 And there were people that were like, I'm going
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to put a lot of time and effort into these videos that I'm
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putting on the Internet. Yeah, yeah, we.
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So I wanna give massive credit to Nick and Jim, who are our
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first teachers. I've fundamentally believed in
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video as a way to learn. I I just love watching video.
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It helps me connect all the dots and I and I struggle with
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reading, you know just walls of text.
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And I thought I video would be wonderful but it needs to be
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taught by really engaging teachers and it we really wanted
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to hold our students and and say we're going to walk you from
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video to video so that you have a coherent experience.
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And I tweeted out, hey is anybody out there that loves
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front end and back end and is really good on camera.
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And Nick and Jim are like us and they literally have like a a
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show that they ran and they were just wonderful and they they
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wrote the content, they shot the content, they edited the
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content. That's really how we booted up
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Treehouse, and I just want it to be a source of education that
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you could trust, that you felt was friendly and welcoming.
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And that was really the way we approached the product for a
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decade. O you know, And you could always
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go to YouTube and get videos for free, you could dig around, but
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everything was kind of disconnected and there was
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different qualities. So we wanted just one great
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place to learn how to cope. Exactly.
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So that value prop still is very strong.
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Like, can I go to someone who I trust and I know it's going to
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be quality every time? Or am I going to spend the time
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to dig through the Internet and try and find something that is
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going to take me down the path that I need to go down?
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Yeah. And the reason why I ended up
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there was actually I'll tell you the quick story that leads to
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it. So it was 1987 and my dad. 1987,
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it's going to be quick story. Yes, it's like a medium story.
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OK, I'm scared of me. Real.
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Tough. So the year I was born?
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Exactly. Let's keep going.
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So I was 10 at that point and my dad brought home an Apple 2E and
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I was like, what is that? And and sort of messed around
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with it and fell in love with it.
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And then I went into high school and my calculus teacher grabbed
10:53
me in the hallway and said, Ryan, you should take our
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computer programming class. And I I was like, I don't even
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know what programming is. What is that?
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Miss Bruce, She said. It's whether you tell the
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computer what to do and it does it.
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And I was like, what I want to do that O learn Pascal and and
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then I ended U in computer science.
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Right. And I was very privileged like
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very like at the top of the privileged chain right.
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Had a dad who brought home a computer.
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I had a teacher who said I should learn how to code.
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You know my parents could afford college.
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I chose computer science like and then but I didn't get all
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that like at the time. And then I walked into my first
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job interview as a for a web developer job and they said, do
11:40
you know Cold Fusion? And I was like, what do you,
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what do you mean? And they said it's a programming
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language and I was like ohh like I know C and and they said, ohh
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it doesn't matter. We're we're gonna hire you just
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read a book. And I'm like, what?
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I thought I got this job because you know I could code for you.
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And it turns out that computer science degree was the thing
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that got me the job. Ohh and it.
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It really threw me because I thought, wait a minute, the
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world isn't working like I thought it should work.
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Like I thought you get a job because you earned the skills to
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do the job and you worked hard. But it turns out I'm in this
12:19
secret little club called Computer science, and you assume
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I can do the job and you let me in.
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And I thought the world's like, shouldn't work like that.
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And I feel like there's millions of people that are never going
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to figure out what computer science is and get this job.
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And this is this job is where you make all the money and you
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create all the value and and so that moment was when that seed
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was planted and that was in 2110 years later grew into Treehouse.
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Wow. And I realised everybody should
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learn how to code at a fraction of the cost of a computer
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science degree so they can get a job that then will change their
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life and change their family's life.
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But it took me 10 years to get get from there to starting the
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company. So.
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Well, and more topical the stuff I still remember you saying on
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that interview. Like we can have a React
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component of video up. Like a day after a new release
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of React, Tell me a computer science course or degree that
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does that. It just doesn't happen, right?
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And so that is it. I think you can, you can look at
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it in many different ways like you can go the full, you don't
13:33
actually need any formal education.
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You can just get everything you need from the Internet these
13:38
days, which is great. Or you can kind of do hybrid and
13:41
you can supplement it and still have those experiences of the
13:45
university or whatever and and get that because it is good.
13:49
Some people still value it when they're looking at a resume or
13:55
just, yeah, I I think those are the two.
13:57
I was gonna say just do nothing, but I don't think you're getting
14:00
many jobs. That's probably not gonna work.
14:02
I mean I would say to everybody now if you're gonna go to
14:05
university, you know just go all in and try to get at the the
14:10
huge brands like a Stanford or Harvard or Carnegie Mellon, like
14:15
just go for that because that is truly valuable.
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That's only because it's a brand like the computer science.
14:21
You learn that is probably no better, but then you get
14:24
connected to the community there, like, so that great.
14:26
If you can do that, awesome. But I went to Colorado State
14:29
University and Owen cares about that, Like, you know, so you
14:32
might as well avoid all that and just go straight into building,
14:37
ship something real, impress people with something that you
14:40
built with your creativity, and work your way into a job that
14:43
way. But you know, everything's
14:45
changed since Trias acquired in 2021, though.
14:48
I mean, you know, large language models just mean education now
14:53
will forever be different and so that's a whole bag of cats that
14:58
we could open U at some point if you want, alright?
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Let's get back into this podcast.
16:08
And are you thinking about getting back into the education
16:12
space? Like, where's your head at right
16:14
now? I spent a number of months
16:19
relearning how to code. OI essentially missed it.
16:22
I missed building like from the ground U, you know, because I
16:27
was fortunate to hire engineers and then hire you know
16:30
engineering managers and then VP of engineers and CTO's and and I
16:34
got abstracted away from, you know the coalface of actually
16:38
writing code and I missed it badly.
16:40
So I you know after trial's acquired and and I had some time
16:44
to think LM's appeared and I just thought what like and and
16:49
then when I started to you know ask I basically paid for chat GT
16:54
Plus and then I started asking questions like well how would I
16:59
write a Python A that could use the Open AI.
17:02
And it was like, ohh, my goodness this is this is
17:05
amazing. You know this is like better
17:09
than anything. We could have built a treehouse
17:11
and and so then I retaught myself and you know front to
17:15
back engineering and I taught myself TypeScript and I taught
17:18
myself next to S and how to deploy and Russell and I shipped
17:22
an app built on open AI API's and I was like what happens I
17:27
did that in like a month And so I think once I I realised that
17:31
wow this is everything we hoped and dreamed for a treehouse
17:35
times 10 and it's 20 bucks a month you know for a ChatGPT
17:39
plus account. Wow.
17:40
It's all different. So I constantly think about
17:42
education. It's like in my blood but I
17:46
ended U realising you know what compute is going to be the
17:51
world's most valuable resource ohh interest.
17:54
And there's really only a couple companies that actually can
17:57
create compute which will create telligence and I realise Intel's
18:02
one of them. OI was at a point where I was
18:04
like, you know what, I wanna join the company that I think is
18:08
going to be creating intelligence in the future and
18:10
be inside of that. And and inside of that I want to
18:14
empower developers to use AI to build the world's most amazing
18:19
thing. So I'd chose to join Intel and
18:22
sort of I'm doing educational on Dev Rel and all sorts of
18:26
exciting things in inside of that framework.
18:30
So it's just what a time to be alive.
18:34
Can you believe it? Like we're we're the ones that
18:37
are going through this should have been born it you know
18:41
hundreds of thousands of different point in history,
18:43
right. But here we are.
18:45
Yep. Or not made it with you at all.
18:48
Yeah. Yeah, That's another little bit
18:52
more pessimistic or different spin on it and I was going to
18:57
take, but it is good to think about and be appreciative.
19:00
It brings that gratitude towards it 100%.
19:04
And we get to see, you know, like I, yeah, I often think
19:08
about how my daughters, like I have two daughters right now and
19:13
how their world will look. And especially now you've
19:16
probably seen just as much as I have on the Internet and out
19:21
there, how there's a lot of companies making plays towards
19:23
wearables. Yeah, right now.
19:26
It seems like not going so well right now though, is it?
19:29
Maybe, you know, flopped poor folks out there, but they're
19:34
taking some swings, which is cool.
19:35
It's V1. Give me a break like that, V10.
19:38
It'll be in your Bibles or in your brain, so yeah.
19:42
Yeah, so, so it it is fascinating to think about that.
19:46
And that brings me back to this other piece that I was really
19:51
reflecting on today about me feeling like we're in the AI
19:57
phase of like the Field of Dreams.
20:00
And I say it's like the Field of Dreams because anybody that's
20:03
seen that movie knows probably the most famous quote from that
20:06
movie is that if you build it, they will come.
20:10
And so it kind of feels like a lot of the stuff that we're
20:14
doing with models, whether that is talking about, oh, well, we
20:19
we're going to make like this big model, but smaller.
20:22
And then you can put it on the phone and it's like, great, but
20:26
what am I going to do with it on the phone?
20:28
And it's like, well, then you've got agents that are gonna be
20:30
able to book out a flight for you.
20:33
And I'm like, but I have Google Flights, So what do I need these
20:37
agents for? Like, please, I'm really
20:39
struggling. I'm trying.
20:40
And and there's probably somebody out there that's just
20:42
like, this dude has no vision. What is going on with this guy?
20:45
He cannot see the future at all. And I I like to think that like
20:50
I do. But maybe I'm about to get.
20:52
I'm so deep in it, and I might just get like, you know,
20:56
blindsided by the whole revolution of agents coming and
21:01
what they're able to do, and I hope so.
21:04
But a part of me is a little bit like, are we over engineering a
21:09
problem that nobody has? Right.
21:11
Are we trying to hammer everything because we think it's
21:15
all nail? Yeah.
21:17
But first of all, let's go back to that movie and you have to
21:19
whisper it. If you build it, they will come.
21:24
By the way, if anybody doesn't seem field dreams, like please
21:26
watch it. It's like watching Kevin
21:27
Costner. Yeah.
21:28
So I I think I think you're absolutely right and absolutely
21:34
wrong at the same time. So absolutely right.
21:36
You know, there's just a bunch of of solutions that everyone is
21:40
building, including me with Maple, which was just my, you
21:45
know, stab at a fun quick AI app.
21:48
You know is a solution to not really a problem.
21:51
And you know a lot of, a lot of we're all seeing are that, but
21:55
but I want to back up and say that is part of the startup
21:57
journey. I mean it is trying to figure
22:00
out what is the problem that people really have and that's
22:04
just the nature of of startups. So I think it's natural and good
22:08
for everybody to be going through that process.
22:12
That's thing one. And thing two is it's never been
22:17
so unbelievably cheap to ship something.
22:21
I mean it's mind boggling like you can do it yourself like this
22:27
is a whole another category of excitement, right.
22:29
And and obviously, you know, we, we all heard Sam Altman say,
22:32
Yep, we're going to see the rise of the billion dollar one person
22:35
company and we all believe it. But you know once you experience
22:39
the fact you can ship a company by yourself, it it's mind
22:43
blowing, right? So and I want that's kind of why
22:45
I built Maple. I was like, I want like proof of
22:47
concept. I'm going to start an LLC and
22:49
I'm going to write the code from front to back and I'm going to
22:52
ship it and I'm going to maintain it and I'm going to
22:54
market it, right. And you know, I am a a basically
22:59
a beginner def. Let's just be blunt.
23:01
Like, yeah, you know, when you look at my skill set and I and I
23:03
did it. So there's that.
23:05
Now where is this all going? I think the thing I'm most
23:11
excited about is, is is a pretty practical use case that I think
23:16
we're getting close to. So if you look at a limitless
23:20
AI, which is a pendant, I think this genre is going to change
23:25
the world. So think about, you know, the,
23:26
the, you know the iPhone, what are we on now?
23:29
Is it the 16? That's next.
23:30
Yeah, like 15 or 16? Something like that.
23:33
Fancy pants I found that's coming out, you know, it looks
23:37
like it's going to have a local model that's really good, right?
23:40
You know, I find it fascinating as well that Apple is now open
23:43
sourcing some of the stuff. Yeah, what?
23:45
Yeah, Apple, of all people, that's enough, because they're
23:48
very known for how they love open source and letting other
23:52
people tamper with what they've created.
23:55
Are are you are you being, are you being honest?
23:58
No, It's just shocking, right? So they really said, so we're
24:02
going to see an amazing model on your iPhone, right?
24:06
And now that thing will be able to listen to you if you let it,
24:09
and it will either fine tune or use rag on everything you say
24:16
all the time. And then you actually can start
24:19
to live this augmented life. You're like, hey, you know what?
24:21
I was talking to my kids today. I feel like they didn't go very
24:24
well because I have a 16 year old and a 13 year old, two boys.
24:27
So you have two girls, you said, yeah, yeah.
24:30
So let's sometimes you should compare notes.
24:32
Yeah. Well, you know, I'm I sometimes
24:34
many days I'm like, I wish I did that better.
24:36
You know, I had a conversation that I lost my temper or I feel
24:41
like I wasn't kind enough or I feel like I wasn't firm enough.
24:44
So I'd love to say it to my phone.
24:45
You know, just give me some coaching on on how I could have
24:48
done that differently today. Because the amount of tokens
24:51
that I say today or that I listen to are probably pretty
24:54
small per day, very ingestible for for rag or fine tuning.
24:58
So I think that, wow, that's a really long answer.
25:01
I think that's a cool idea. I want to see that is a very.
25:04
Cool idea. Well, especially if it's funny
25:07
because last week we had one of the founders of Fed ML on here
25:11
and he was talking about how we're not there yet for
25:14
Federated Learning on your phones and that type of thing
25:18
that still needs, we still need like a few iteration cycles.
25:21
But we are what you're talking about.
25:22
Feels like, yeah, then that's when we're coming of age and
25:26
we're getting into that phase where I say, yeah, I I love
25:30
Doctor Becky and I want you to coach me in the style of Doctor
25:35
Becky. You know, like, give me that.
25:38
That be great. Yeah, yeah.
25:40
Tell me how I could be better in that regard.
25:43
And then we're talking. Yeah, but then we're living.
25:48
And then it's it's becoming dangerously close to an episode
25:50
of Black Mirror. Yeah, but that's just like what
25:53
we all like to say is it freaks us out like.
25:55
Yeah, I you. I'm a technological optimist.
25:59
So like, I tend to think, yeah, of course this would go really
26:01
sideways, but I can't really control that like and what is is
26:05
going to be what it is. So I choose to believe that, you
26:09
know, everybody could benefit from, you know, their own health
26:14
professional that's customised to you and everything you say
26:17
and think and do is recorded. And that's just kind of where
26:20
we're going, you know? And so why not see how that
26:23
could be great instead of terrible?
26:26
Yeah, I appreciate that viewpoint too.
26:30
Like, let's explore the potential for upside, if not
26:37
this potential. For that, it needs to be bad all
26:40
the time. Right.
26:41
This is the power of everybody listening to this show.
26:45
You can create like. You can change the future like,
26:51
that's amazing, right? And now you can change it for
26:54
less capital than has ever been possible in human history.
26:58
And you're alive right now listening to this.
27:00
That means you have the opportunity.
27:03
And I'm just so excited about that.
27:06
Like when, when have we ever had a being by our side that was
27:12
available 100% that was wanted us to win, that had more IQ than
27:18
the average person and more knowledge than than 85 of us for
27:23
$20 like so I just can't wait to see what gets built.
27:30
You know, I am nervous. You hear again all men say
27:33
things like you know, if if if you're trying to build, you
27:37
know, rappers, you know, around an LM, we're going to steamroll
27:41
you. Nobody wants to hear that.
27:43
And you know maybe that's why the, the Dev Rel team and things
27:47
seem to be weird around Open AI right now.
27:49
It's yeah, because I was a part of we actually produced
27:52
Twitter's one and only dev conference.
27:55
It's called CHIRP and everyone was like, yeah, we're gonna
27:58
build on Twitter's API's and then like at the show, they're
28:01
like, never mind, we're actually, we're gonna like cut
28:04
off all the monetization and you know, we're gonna we're gonna
28:08
win and everyone's like, ohh that that's a bummer.
28:12
Yeah. Like, thanks for getting us here
28:14
and making us pay for that news. Yeah.
28:16
And this kind of goes into this whole fun conversation around
28:19
open source, closed source and and why I think all of us are so
28:23
bullish on what's happening with open source models and and meta
28:28
basically, you know, just like putting billions of dollars
28:33
into, you know, giving us all access to really good
28:36
foundational models. Yeah, and setting the tone
28:39
right, because then you've got Microsoft saying, alright, well
28:42
these small models will open source those and like you said,
28:45
even Apple if they're coming out of the woodwork and open source
28:48
and models right something and just feels weird.
28:51
About that, yeah. It feels weird to get, I'd say,
28:54
yeah. I like it the way I'm confused.
29:01
I love that. Yeah, very true.
29:03
But, and you said something earlier where you were like,
29:05
yeah, I'm a junior dev at best. I'm paraphrasing here.
29:10
Yeah, but do you feel like your developer skills are one thing?
29:15
But then as you mentioned you, you basically took everything,
29:19
you packaged it up and you were able to ship something.
29:23
You're a seasoned entrepreneur, so all of that those other
29:28
pieces that aren't the code really were playing into like
29:33
your ease at being able to shit. Absolutely, Yeah.
29:37
I I'm not afraid, right to try and be wrong.
29:42
You know, I have enough you know fun financial sort of
29:46
understanding and and capital understanding to you know kind
29:51
of move these needles around. I I don't think it's as hard as
29:56
folks think. Like, if there's gonna be this
29:58
show that hasn't, you know, shipped a company, just try it.
30:02
Like, use Stripes Product Atlas, create an LLC with a couple of
30:08
clicks and ship something real. You know, it sounds like I'm
30:12
being paid by Stripe. I'm not, but I then Stripe does
30:15
all the billing and all the all the reporting on churn and
30:19
retention. Like there's all these things
30:20
that just didn't exist when we we built Treehouse.
30:22
That is like literally one click.
30:24
Just try it and it'll probably be dumb and it probably won't
30:28
work for your first thing, but you got your Rep in and then
30:31
you're like, OK, now I'm in the ring.
30:33
Like it's not so scary here. That's all you got to do is just
30:37
get over that first one, start trying.
30:40
And being out there and putting a price on a product that you
30:45
create is so valuable to having to go and and sell something.
30:50
Maybe it's not necessarily like you get people on the phone and
30:53
you're selling, but saying, hey, this thing has value and let's
30:56
see if other people feel that same way.
30:59
Absolutely. And one thing is, well, you
31:01
know, folks listening probably have wildly different skill sets
31:04
or specialties. I I think there is a tendency to
31:09
think everybody now needs to be an ML engineer to to win and
31:15
that's absolutely not the case I believe.
31:17
I think no. You can take your domain
31:19
expertise, you can teach yourself to be a junior dev and
31:23
then you build on amazing infrastructure like Vercell
31:27
right? Like an API from either a closed
31:31
or open source or use Grock like you can now take your domain
31:35
expertise and use very beginner skills to then build a solution
31:40
on top of that. So I, you know, I was just
31:43
talking to my friend was this amazing musician and he
31:46
understands the science of music and he can take that deep, deep,
31:51
deep, deep knowledge and then think about, OK, how could I use
31:54
AI to solve problems I have or offer solutions.
31:58
And and I think that's where that kind of thought process
32:00
should work. It goes back to your question of
32:02
like, are people just building a bunch of stuff that's kind of
32:04
dumb? Yeah, I think they might be, if
32:06
they're not building on their own domain expertise.
32:09
Yeah, some of the coolest stuff that I've seen is not
32:14
complicated at all and it's just it's exactly what you're talking
32:18
about. It's scratching the edge of
32:20
recognising someone has a lot of pain when they do this.
32:24
And for example, I was talking to this guy who started this at,
32:28
well, company I would say called Sedbury.
32:31
I don't know if you've seen that, but they help people fill
32:36
out forms. It's like TypeScript but with
32:41
like on steroids, right? And so you as a company you can
32:44
create a form, but then they have these capabilities where
32:49
and it's a lot of these really in-depth forms.
32:51
Let's imagine you have a gigantic tax document and you're
32:55
going to do your taxes. But then there's one form that
32:58
you need to fill out and you need to add like 3 different tax
33:03
documents to that form and all of the information that you need
33:08
to fill out in the new form is actually contained in the old
33:11
form. So they just grab everything,
33:13
they fill it out for you, they like pre populate it and then
33:16
you get to say yeah that looks good.
33:19
That's great. See that.
33:20
I think that's a good product. Like I don't know how they're
33:23
doing financially or or but that is a pain point O why not try to
33:28
solve it and see if you build a little business out of it Or
33:30
maybe it's a huge business. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think
33:33
they're doing really well, right from when I talked to other.
33:35
So yeah, shout out to them, that's awesome what they're
33:40
doing. And they came from, you know,
33:41
the complicated, like financial institutions.
33:43
Just imagine the last time that you had to like do stuff with
33:46
your bank, fill out those kind of forms.
33:48
Or if you're a professional investor and you need to do all
33:53
those types of forms. I think we also had someone on
33:55
here from Angel List a while back and it was similar type of
33:58
thing where they were. They were kind of bringing up
34:04
these resources that you would need and helping you fill in the
34:09
gaps of OK, I'm going to make this investment, but pretty much
34:13
everything in the investment is already buttoned up.
34:18
You don't have to have questions about it.
34:20
Love it. Feathery sponsors the show if
34:22
you're listening. Yeah, this is not sponsored by
34:27
them but I would love it. Yeah they were they were
34:29
awesome. So but but you know like one
34:32
thing I wanna talk. I wanna continue along this road
34:35
of starting stuff and you being someone who has started multiple
34:42
different projects and ventures and companies all different
34:46
stages of life, how do you feel like people out there can learn
34:55
from what you've learned? I would say you have a unique
35:00
advantage in large language models and I would, I would use
35:03
it. So you know the mental battle I
35:08
think is the hardest part to solve on all this and and I
35:12
think just having a being that you can bounce things off of as
35:17
you're thinking about startup starting something is a huge
35:21
unlock. So I would say just, you know,
35:25
grab your favourite model and start talking to it about what
35:28
you're thinking, what you're afraid of, what you're not sure
35:31
about and it will progress you, right.
35:35
So I would say that's the number one thing because I didn't have
35:38
that and so I was, I tended to be a solo founder or a solo
35:43
founder plus my wife. And you know I'm super fortunate
35:48
to have an amazing wife who been married 20 years now and and she
35:54
has really like Ben the the supporting through everything
35:58
I've done. But I was always out in front
36:02
kind of alone and you know at some point you just can't talk
36:05
to your friends anymore about your idea or your your your
36:08
parents or you know your your kids or your partner.
36:12
They just, I don't know at some point they're like get tired of
36:15
it or they don't have expertise in it and so you need that.
36:18
So I would say that's thing one which you have access to now
36:21
which is a major, major unlock and of course the line is going
36:25
to not be the perfect thought partner on that.
36:27
But I think it gets you, you know a long way through that's
36:31
thing one. I think thing two now that you
36:33
can ship companies so much faster and cheaper you know
36:36
building on things like Stripe on things like Vercell it's it's
36:41
good to get it out see what happens.
36:44
You know if you work for a company you do it on your own
36:48
laptop they'll do in your work laptop everybody you know
36:51
there's these lines you gotta draw in your life.
36:53
You know there's tip, you should talk to your your company if you
36:56
work for them and let them know you've got a side project like
36:59
it'll be terrible if you don't because then they'll just say we
37:02
own that. Thank you very much.
37:04
It's things to know about that. So couple couple things like
37:07
that. I think the other thing is this,
37:09
and I think you've done a very good job of this, so I'll give
37:11
you credit, build a community and and and and a non
37:16
egotistical way put yourself in the middle of that community.
37:18
Here's why. O and this is I didn't know I
37:22
was executing this playbook, but it turned out to work very well
37:24
for Treehouse. So I started off by doing these
37:28
fun meetups that was called by designers for designers.
37:31
We would meet at a bar, we would talk about web design and this
37:35
is like 2000. I mean this is early and pretty
37:38
social networks and so people would show up.
37:39
We had fun and like we should do another one.
37:42
So we did one London and we did in Manchester and then well that
37:44
was cool. A bunch of people came and then
37:47
and then let's make a website and and and a community and and
37:51
do news. Wow.
37:52
OK. Well, let's do a conference and
37:54
I'll be on stage being the MC and and what happens is you end
37:58
up being the connector, right. And and you get to know
38:02
everybody and then you can eventually leverage that you
38:08
know as needed to tell people what you're doing or ask for
38:11
help or get connections. And so that that's so you you
38:14
saw me and Kevin show. The reason why I know Kevin is
38:18
because I invited him to speak at my conference in in San
38:23
Francisco and we became friends. And then he was like, well,
38:28
what's this thing you're you're doing?
38:30
And I was like it's called Treehouse and it's working.
38:32
It's like I wanna invest. I'm like you do, you know?
38:34
And then he's like, I'll pull my friends to invest.
38:36
And and it all came about because I had started this
38:40
little community in a bar called by designers for designers in
38:43
2000. And you know, so build a
38:46
community and and offer value and grind at that and don't
38:52
expect to return but you, but you will get a wild return on it
38:56
eventually if you put in the time and you're doing a fabulous
38:59
job of this and everybody you need to go to the AI quality
39:03
conference for real like it's going to be a good show.
39:06
I'm not being paid to say that, but community Irel and then
39:11
wrapping it, you know, with an online community, a podcast,
39:14
like it's a genius playbook. And if you if you can, you
39:17
should. Yeah, and it is.
39:20
It's funny you mentioned that. First of all, thank you for
39:23
saying that, because it makes me feel good about where we're at
39:26
and what I'm doing with my life. Smart.
39:29
Need doing it. Well that like you're like you
39:31
were saying sometimes you're out and being the person who is at
39:37
in the company or the founder of the company like my wife has
39:41
heard too much of it. My daughter just goes Oh my God
39:43
well if you don't have money just like go get more.
39:47
I'm like brilliant advice I love that you are hitting.
39:51
Yeah, like exactly. Hired and helped me hire more
39:55
people like you. So.
39:58
But the the thing that I was going to say is starting a
40:02
community is incredibly hard, right?
40:05
And you have to really focus a lot of time and attention and
40:09
effort into it, and even then. I kind of liken it to catching
40:14
lightning in a bottle because you can do everything the exact
40:18
same way that I did it, or you can do everything like follow
40:22
the playbook on how to do it. But sometimes it just doesn't
40:27
catch. Yeah.
40:28
And I know because I've told people that I'm gonna help them
40:31
start their communities and it's a lot of effort and a lot of
40:35
time. And you need, yeah, you got to
40:37
put that work in. And what I was thinking is that
40:43
if you are someone who already has the idea and the product and
40:49
you're already like, well, I've got this code and I've got this
40:54
piece of whatever shipped. You can also go into existing
40:59
communities or go into existing like I I recommend quite a bit.
41:04
If there are influencers in the space that you're trying to get
41:07
into, just go hang out in their comments section or in their
41:11
replies section. 100% they put in the time we're in connect.
41:16
Yeah, exactly. Because that's where it's all
41:18
happening, and that's where you're gonna hear if there are
41:22
these problems that you're you think people have.
41:26
You get to see what language people are using.
41:28
You get to actually, like, be empathetic to other people.
41:33
Not just like if you're building to scratch your own itch, that's
41:35
one thing. But then when you want to bring
41:36
it on to the market, then you, if you are out there adding
41:40
value, people notice that. Yeah, that's great advice.
41:44
Gosh, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna 2X that and say, yeah, just do
41:48
it, Demetrio says. Everybody, Mark.
41:52
Especially especially the air quality conference that we you
41:56
know. I mean like we we just got back
42:00
from an off site with our team at Intel and and the the the
42:04
value you get from IRL connection, you just can never,
42:07
you can never replace that with online connection.
42:10
Online cash is important and good, but yeah, the quality
42:14
relationships you build is just next level IRL.
42:19
And you know, Speaking of Intel, I think that's a perfect segue
42:23
into like you being an Intel. First of all, can you explain a
42:28
little bit about, I know they they launched some CPUs and what
42:32
is it? It's sure.
42:34
Gaudy three. Yeah.
42:36
Is that what it is? Can you break that down?
42:37
Because I I saw that and it looked super fast.
42:41
It looked really cool. I wanna know more.
42:43
Thank you. This again.
42:44
Like. No, I did not expect to talk to
42:48
you about this on here. There's no, you did not pay me
42:50
to have you talk about this. I think it's just perfect timing
42:54
that it came out like a week ago.
42:56
Yeah. So I we we talked a little bit
42:59
about this. You know, why did I join Intel?
43:02
It's a, you know, we have 125,000 employees.
43:05
It's a huge, huge company, right?
43:08
And the reason why is because I believe that Compute is going to
43:13
be the most valuable resource if if if it isn't already.
43:18
And there's very few companies that actually create compute
43:22
that actually know how to make the semiconductors, right?
43:27
Because it is wildly hard to do. Like, I just don't think anybody
43:31
understands how actually hard it is to to make chips.
43:35
And so there's only a few. And I wanted to join a company
43:41
that was going to create compute because I believe it, it's going
43:44
to literally create intelligence in the future.
43:47
So it's like, all right, I want to be in the middle of and then
43:50
the thing that I'm deeply passionate about is community
43:53
and and and empowering people to become developers and become
43:58
better developers. Because I I believe that
44:01
developers are going to continue to change the world.
44:04
I know everyone's afraid that devs are going to be replaced by
44:06
Devon or INSERT. Another one that didn't age
44:10
well. Coding your agent, you know,
44:13
source. But but I absolutely don't think
44:14
that's true. I think using it like knowing
44:17
how to use tools is going to mean you can make better things
44:19
like not you should not learn how to use the tool and then
44:22
pretend you don't need to build anything.
44:24
So, but that's my rant for the day.
44:25
So I was like gosh, if I could be it Intel, which is literally
44:29
creating compute, which is creating intelligence and I can
44:33
empower people globally to either become AI Davis or become
44:37
better at Daves like what a dream job.
44:39
And so I joined them like let's go, I want to help you create a
44:42
global AI developer community and I want to empower them.
44:45
And so that's why I'm there now and I'm never going to promote
44:49
our products or other products or or or hyper on stuff.
44:53
I think the most important thing is to tell people what's out
44:56
there. Like, hey, here's the the tools
44:58
available to you, here's what works.
44:59
Here is what doesn't work. Obviously everybody wants H 100
45:04
so they can train their models, right?
45:06
And obviously everybody does not want just one company to create
45:11
compute. You know the more competitors we
45:14
have in this space, the better for AI devs, the better for
45:17
humans, right. So and I'll mention it briefly
45:20
because I really don't want your listeners to think I'm here to
45:22
talk about Intel. But we did release a brand new
45:26
ASIC. Now it's not a GPU which is
45:28
interesting, it's it's designed for one workload which is AI
45:32
workloads and it's called Gowdy and we just released the the
45:36
latest one called Gowdy 3 and it is faster than an H100.
45:40
And I'm just really excited that people have more options now to
45:45
to to train because I think every company, every country,
45:49
eventually every family, every every city, every village is
45:55
going to be either training models, fine tuning models,
46:00
running inference. This is the way that
46:02
intelligence is going to work. And so we need massive access to
46:07
compute and the pricing is to come down and I'm super excited
46:11
that we can be a part of that. So that vision is also really
46:16
compelling. The idea of it is going to be
46:19
just as decentralised as us all having phones, right?
46:24
It's it's all going to be this. Yeah, right.
46:28
And and so we can't have one organisation, you know, creating
46:32
compute and really dominating. We need many and there's a lot
46:36
of it's exciting to see the competition heat up.
46:39
I think it's good for humanity. Yeah, yeah.
46:42
Because as you mentioned, it'll drive the price down.
46:44
Yeah. You've been through the
46:49
startups. You've been on one side of the
46:51
table at startups. You basically like boss man and
46:57
taking that. To.
46:59
To to selling a startup. Yeah, yeah, that's your official
47:04
title, I think, on LinkedIn and everything.
47:07
Yeah. And then you come to a company
47:10
where there's thousands of people.
47:12
How do you think about adding value and bringing your best
47:16
self to that company? Everyone.
47:19
If you're in a startup or in a company, you're probably if
47:22
you're a good one, you have OK cars or you have KPIs.
47:25
If you don't, why Red flag, right.
47:30
OK. So or versus yeah exciting
47:33
opportunity, right. So, so here's the way I I would
47:37
if if you're at a company and you're thinking about advancing
47:41
your career and becoming more valuable and more helpful and
47:44
winning in general, I would the first thing you do should do is
47:47
figure out what is the top level OK R for the entire company or a
47:51
set of Okr's and how does it flow down to me and then how can
47:57
I impact that number, right. Because you need to align
48:02
yourself to the strategy of the CEO and the company, right.
48:07
So that's thing one. If you are trying to work really
48:11
hard and do something but it's not a part of the company's
48:13
core, OK R is like you're never going to really add value.
48:16
You're never going to be appreciated.
48:17
You're never going to get a race like you're never going to get
48:20
more power. So, so, so that should be thing
48:24
one. And if the company doesn't have
48:26
clear OK Rs or KPI's then you should.
48:29
You should be the one to say, I would love to align our work to
48:32
a top level strategy, you know, as a framework called OK R It's
48:36
pretty simple, you know, let's figure that out.
48:39
And it's beautiful because it goes from the top down.
48:41
It's like, OK, what is? If you look 12 months out, what
48:44
is the one thing that we need to say we got done?
48:47
And you can sort of imagine it being announcement.
48:50
Like what if there was a press announcement, What would it say?
48:54
And then you work backwards. OK, well, if if if we say that,
48:57
then what are the five things that need to happen in order to
49:00
do that? OK.
49:01
And then you break each one of those down into one of the five
49:03
things they need to do that. And then it ends up being, oh, I
49:06
need to do XYZ today so that I can move my number.
49:10
And there's a bunch of great tools.
49:11
Like, I love Asana. I'm not being paid to say that,
49:14
but Asana has Okr's that breakdown into tasks and it's
49:17
just your ex is great. Well, I'm just laughing.
49:20
Just we gotta, we gotta count how many times we've said we are
49:25
not getting paid because one of these times we'd better be
49:28
getting paid. I yeah, I've said we're not
49:31
getting paid, so. Much That's right everyone.
49:33
We're trying to offer you value here and tell you about tools
49:36
that actually worked. Affiliate links in the
49:38
description in case anybody is wondering.
49:40
Oh my God, I've never done affiliate links.
49:42
That's one of those things. I'm like that's a line.
49:44
Maybe I should, but it feels bad.
49:46
I don't know. Yeah.
49:47
So that I think that you know I think often technical folks we
49:53
think, you know we just need to ship this thing that we care
49:58
about. But if that thing doesn't align
50:00
to an OK R somehow you just can't really advance and you
50:05
can't really offer value or change the deal.
50:07
So I would say that's thing one. Thing two, this is kind of a a
50:11
very simple thing is buy a good mic and a good camera because
50:16
you're probably remote. And you know, I know we both
50:19
have good mics and good cameras, but I feel like I'm the 1% of
50:24
people in meetings that actually sound good.
50:26
I'm like. Makes such a difference.
50:28
I mean, so this pod mic from Rd, I think it's like 100 bucks,
50:32
right? This stand, what was it maybe
50:35
like 200 bucks? Yeah, I don't know Max.
50:37
And then I've got a Rd Caster Pro, which is I think like maybe
50:41
3-4 hundred bucks. So that kind of you sound
50:44
amazing. Forever packages, maybe 500
50:46
bucks and your work will probably pay for it.
50:48
So just like do that. It's very true that you do get
50:53
respected and I could see how being in a big company you can
50:57
get more respect, especially if all of your car calls are online
51:01
and you're hardly seeing people. I mean off of the Intel, I'm
51:03
I'm, you know often the only person with a good mic in these
51:06
meetings, you know, and that's just because people are kind of
51:08
normal and they don't have this stuff and they're like wow do
51:12
you have a podcast? And I I do actually.
51:14
So, but you don't need a mic like this, you know?
51:18
You don't have to have a podcast have a mic like this, you.
51:21
And we're not being sponsored by Rd either people.
51:25
But I I do feel like I I think most of the conversation is
51:29
around like modern cutting edge AI development is happening on
51:34
X. Like I maybe I'm in my own
51:36
bubble, but it feels like it's all happening there and I don't
51:40
know how you know. And this is, yeah, one of the
51:44
things I'm working on is is bringing, you know our
51:47
conversation, you know, to acts. And so, you know, I host a a
51:51
space on X3 times a week, you know, but it's not sponsored by
51:54
Intel. But it's like, hey, yeah, we're
51:55
we want to be here because for sure it's important to cover the
51:58
news and be a part of the conversation, you know, so.
52:01
And exactly there, there was one last thing I wanted to mention
52:04
on the OK R piece, because I really appreciate that view of
52:10
understanding the hop level OKRS and then how you can affect
52:15
that, right? Like how that comes down to me,
52:19
right? What things can I contribute to
52:22
those top level or that are going to help those top level
52:24
Okr's? Do you feel like you're always
52:29
going to be in a position where you understand or you know what
52:32
those top level OK Rs are? Is that another red flag if you
52:35
don't know what those are? It is red flag.
52:37
You you everybody in the whole company should know the top
52:40
level cares. Absolutely.
52:43
And and so that's what I love about Intel is it's very
52:46
transparent. You know, I was literally, we
52:48
were at an event where Pat RCO was speaking and so you know, he
52:53
just pounds his home. Like, these are the top jobs and
52:56
everybody knows it. And then you float out from
52:59
that. Now coordinated that among
53:00
125,000 people is not perfect, right?
53:04
But but it's very clear. So yeah, you should know.
53:06
And the beautiful thing is, gosh, if you go ask your CEO
53:10
Shell and you say, I want to know what the top level.
53:14
OK, is, what is the one thing that you need us to get done
53:17
next 12 months? She'll say, I love that.
53:20
You're asking me that, you know, and let's talk about it.
53:24
And because that's their whole job, is trying to drive the
53:27
entire team, do that thing and as soon as you care about it and
53:31
you work on it, then you #1 make an impact on #2.
53:34
You become more valuable to the company.
53:36
And and the other thing is, you know, it's it's like if you can
53:40
always be the person that's, that's like offering solutions,
53:44
you know, not problems. People just like you better,
53:47
right? You'll you'll be more
53:49
successful. So if you're like, hey, I know
53:51
this is a tough challenge, but here's an idea.
53:53
I have to solve it. You know, I always tell my kids
53:56
this, like people want to work with people they like.
53:59
Yes, just not that you need to be a pushover or be nice all the
54:04
time, but but if you are helpful, have integrity, you're
54:08
you're trying to help other people win.
54:11
Like generally people are going to I don't wanna work, see my
54:14
kids, never listen to me or care what they say.
54:17
But if they did, it could be more successful in life.
54:21
It's exactly. They wouldn't know how good they
54:24
if they could have it. Yeah.
54:26
No, that's like. How old are your girls?
54:29
One's five and the other is 1. Ohh, my gosh.
54:31
OK, good. You have plenty of time for them
54:33
not to listen to yourself. Yeah, right.
54:36
Exactly. Ohh, that's so funny.
54:39
So. But it it's fascinating what
54:42
you're saying about the relationships piece because and
54:45
just like how we like to work with other people that we like.
54:48
I feel that so much and we had so Rashidi on here about a week
54:56
two weeks ago and one of the things that I asked her was
54:59
like, ohh, yeah. So you get the, you can go out
55:03
there and you can be learning about the data foundations, or
55:07
you can be learning about the newest thing with AI.
55:10
Or you can be how do you balance what is more important?
55:13
Because then you can also be doing the, you know, the
55:17
democracy thing or the relationship building thing and
55:21
or diplomacy. I shouldn't say democracy,
55:23
diplomacy. Be democratic if you like I.
55:26
Think so good. Yeah, I think you gotta do both,
55:28
right. So and I think you can be
55:31
disciplined about it, for instance by saying making A to
55:34
do for yourself once a week, reach out, build your
55:37
relationships, right. And then that just reminds you,
55:40
yeah, I should do that one thing this week I'm going to, I'm
55:42
going to reach out to that new person.
55:43
I haven't met the company yet, or I'm going to make time to to
55:47
connect. And then, you know, over 50
55:49
weeks of the working year, you'll have made fifty actions
55:54
that will advance your your networking, your relationship,
55:57
building, your healthfulness. Right.
56:00
And then and it I hope it doesn't sound like cold to say,
56:04
well, I shouldn't make A to do to to build my network.
56:08
But I I do think, you know if you don't make it to do then
56:10
then maybe it doesn't matter to you right.
56:13
Yeah, so that's probably a good thing to do.
56:16
That, yeah. And it's top of mind.
56:18
It reminds you. And so maybe you want to.
56:22
It's just that you forget until you're like lying down in bed at
56:26
night and you're like, oh, I wanted to write that guy I
56:29
forgot. Well, I'll remember tomorrow
56:31
when I wake up. And then you never remember.
56:33
Yeah, I I wish. You know, I feel like I would
56:38
pay for this. So if someone wants to build it
56:39
using I I think the augmenting and the helping of you building
56:46
relationships in a non creepy terrible way.
56:49
This idea of like and this is where I I really do want my
56:52
phone to be able to listen to everything I say.
56:54
Because then as I talked to people, it will have context.
56:57
And then I can say help me remember, you know, to reach
57:00
back out to Dimitrios, you know, every once in a while because I
57:03
care about them. And then, you know, then it
57:07
reminds me, it would remind me we talked about and there's like
57:09
that natural like I want these relationships to be built but
57:13
sometimes I get busy or something happens and I don't.
57:16
I think that I would speak killer for that.
57:20
You know what that makes me think is how special the
57:24
relationships that we actually like have in our lives are and
57:30
the ones that we actually do spend time on, make sure they're
57:33
good. So that's this has been awesome,
57:37
man. I really appreciate this, Ryan,
57:39
and I'm excited for everything that you're doing.
57:43
I'm really hopeful that we get to meet in person and thank you
57:48
for coming on here. It's been an honour and I'm a
57:51
big fan of yours and the podcast and what you're doing and I
57:54
think you're you're both kind and smart and I respect that and
57:59
I appreciate you having me here. So thank you so much.