Latest / Communication Breakdown / Lessons from Beyoncé’s Grammy Wins
Transcript
- 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,560 (upbeat music) 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,040 - Welcome back to Communication Breakdown, 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,680 a new podcast from the Observatory on Corporate Reputation. 4 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:09,760 Thanks for joining us. 5 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,040 I'm Steve Dowling in Silicon Valley. 6 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:13,800 - And I'm Craig Carroll in New York City. 7 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,760 Each week, Steve and I take a look at strategies, 8 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,640 companies are using to shape headlines 9 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,080 and sometimes save their skins. 10 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:22,520 The Post Game Show for PR Pros. 11 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,880 This week, lessons on reinvention and reputation 12 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,400 torn from today's headlines. 13 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,640 And not just the headlines you might expect, 14 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:31,720 and the Grammy goes to... 15 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:37,120 - Cowboy Carter. 16 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,520 (audience cheering) 17 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,840 - Album of the Year, best country album 18 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,440 and best country duo performance. 19 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:47,240 Beyonce was the big story 20 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,400 of this year's Grammy Awards in Los Angeles, 21 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,920 marking her first album of the Year award 22 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,720 after five nominations in that category. 23 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,680 And Beyonce, who grew up in Texas 24 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,680 and has won more Grammys than any artist in history 25 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:01,560 becomes the first black artist 26 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,560 to take home best country album. 27 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,480 - I'd like to thank all of the incredible country artists 28 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,920 that accepted this album. 29 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,840 We worked so hard on it. 30 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,880 I think sometimes, Jarmra is a cold word 31 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,320 to keep us in our place as artists. 32 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:23,680 And I just wanna encourage people to do 33 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,280 what they're passionate about. 34 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,720 When Cal Boy Carter debuted a year ago, 35 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,800 the New York Times called it, quote, 36 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,280 not exactly country, unquote, 37 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,040 the album explicitly challenged musical boundaries 38 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,520 and sparked conversations as well as controversy. 39 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,680 Beyonce and the country music community 40 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:43,520 have had a strained relationship at times, 41 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,120 reaching back to 2016 when her appearance 42 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,200 of the country music awards drew some ugly criticism 43 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,760 from some traditional country music fans. 44 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,000 With this year's Grammys, 45 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,760 she seems to have scored a victory 46 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,160 over racial stereotypes 47 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,040 and earned further recognition for her own career 48 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,800 being recognized as a crossover success 49 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,000 and finally taking home album of the year. 50 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,400 - We like to think there are some lessons 51 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,200 for communicators in this saga. 52 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,640 To start us off, we turned to a Beyonce superfan 53 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:15,160 who just happens to run comms for one of Texas hottest startups. 54 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,980 Here's open AI Chief Communications Officer Hannah Wong. 55 00:02:18,980 --> 00:02:23,120 - Of course now with Cal Boy Carter, 56 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,240 Beyonce isn't just reclaiming space in country music, 57 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:28,760 she's expanding it. 58 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,920 She's collaborated across genres, 59 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:32,560 she's brought in new voices 60 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,120 and she's reshaped the way people think about country. 61 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,520 And I think this is another really good lesson we can all take. 62 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,520 Reinvention is about evolving while staying true 63 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,920 to your core values and identity. 64 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:50,760 - Professor Carol, you're a country music official, 65 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,160 a Nashville native 66 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,240 and you're also no stranger to the B-Hive. 67 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,040 You've spent some time thinking about this story I know. 68 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,000 One of the things I find interesting is that 69 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,600 Cal Boy Carter had a big debut 70 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,360 but it did dominate the charts 71 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,280 or what we would have once called the airwaves 72 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,280 like some of the other nominees did. 73 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,040 The Grammys are perennially not 74 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,000 for too often rewarding commercial success over artistry. 75 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,320 But this is a case where looks like cultural impact 76 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,680 and the reinvention Hannah just mentioned 77 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,080 changed Beyonce's path to victory. 78 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,720 Is that a good way to look at it? 79 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:21,720 - Okay, yes, I have. 80 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,080 I have been thinking about this a lot 81 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,240 but before I jump into that with a deep dive, 82 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,440 I just wanna say, first of all, 83 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,120 being a Nashville native does not make me 84 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,480 a country music depiction auto. 85 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:33,880 I know that for a lot of people, 86 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,200 they're one in the same, but they're not. 87 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,560 I live in New York for recent, I love Nashville 88 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,040 but country music, 89 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,000 I will say we grew up going there on Christmas Eve 90 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,280 to the rhyme in each year. 91 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:49,400 That was always fun. 92 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,920 But this was almost like a re-exposure in some senses. 93 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:55,480 But look, here's the deal. 94 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:56,640 I know a lot of people, 95 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,640 well, there's a lot of controversy about it 96 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,880 but I was very curious about it. 97 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,480 So I did look at some of the numbers 98 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,680 and that gummits, she deserved it 99 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,320 based on the categories of what you're looking for 100 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:10,960 for the album of the year, 101 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,920 like in terms of all the categories, 102 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,320 songwriting complexity, narrative cohesion, conceptual depth, 103 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:18,720 production techniques, 104 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,680 emotional delivery, risk taking and experimentation 105 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,120 but there's so much that was done, 106 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,920 use of literary and historical references. 107 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,960 There were so much that was done in the album, 108 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,440 I could say, yes, she checked all the boxes for this one. 109 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,280 - Craig, let's look at it through the lens of reputation 110 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:37,120 and it's hard to find a reputation better than Beyonce's. 111 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,400 Oh, what can we take away from this particular episode? 112 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,040 - There is a lesson here about being very clear 113 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,360 about what you want, 114 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,960 what it is that you are trying to accomplish 115 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:49,840 and that is your driver 116 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:53,600 and not letting other people, other things distract you 117 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,100 from your goal in life. 118 00:04:55,100 --> 00:04:57,520 I think there's an important lesson there. 119 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,240 I think there's another one for resilience and tenacity 120 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:02,880 and not giving up. 121 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,760 I think there's a lesson here for controlling your own story. 122 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,960 They get about what you want to be known for 123 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,320 and being very clear and not letting somebody else 124 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,720 be the final storyteller, 125 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,840 the final say on your own story. 126 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:22,160 So I think that sets the path for another reputation 127 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:23,480 lesson that we can think of. 128 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,520 And the term that I'm using is insight, 129 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,360 not or site, not insight with INSIGHT, 130 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,720 but INSIGD, as IGHT, your ability to begin 131 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,360 with the end and mind. 132 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,760 So for site is predictive, right? 133 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,040 It's like spotting trends, anticipating disruptions 134 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,600 and understanding what's on the horizon. 135 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,680 And certainly that's a critical skill, 136 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,000 but it's not enough. 137 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,160 Insight goes further. 138 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:49,960 It's not just about seeing the future. 139 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,680 It's about engineering it. 140 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,640 It's blattering every move into long term impact, 141 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,800 aligning your networks, timing and resources 142 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,080 so that when the future arrives, 143 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,200 you're not just prepared for your position of win. 144 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,040 I'd say if you're looking for a prime example 145 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,800 of what insight is an action, that's Beyonce. 146 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,560 She's not just the dropping music, 147 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,160 she's building a movement, a cultural movement. 148 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,600 This was also a good example of reputation renting 149 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:14,920 is what we call it. 150 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:16,560 I know that that sounds awful, 151 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,520 but the reality is that's what we do, 152 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,360 that this is one of the ways that we engage 153 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,000 people from other categories. 154 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,560 This is how partnerships and alliances work. 155 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,720 And so it's not a statement of judgment, 156 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,760 it's not a statement that anything's wrong, 157 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,560 but that is one of the lessons there. 158 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,440 I mean, she, first of all, it's a pretty big deal 159 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,720 that you've got Beyonce and Dallet Parton 160 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:37,920 singing together, right? 161 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Or Dallet Parton and Willie, right? 162 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,320 They're both legends in the field coming together. 163 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:44,160 That's huge. 164 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:45,840 - Yeah, I wouldn't call it reputation renting. 165 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:48,680 I would call those-- - That's because you're not a vassar. 166 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,360 - Rough, fair. 167 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:51,360 I'm okay with that. 168 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,320 That I would call it validation. 169 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,120 I would call those validators for her artistry 170 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:02,120 and that helped, I hope, helped people take notice 171 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:07,000 because she had music, country music superstars 172 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,080 in that album as you pointed out, Dallet Parton, 173 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:09,920 Willie Nelson. 174 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:11,960 She also had Miley Cyrus and Post Malone. 175 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:12,960 - Yep. 176 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,480 - So she had all of these validators 177 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,600 and I think what is interesting about that is it gave her 178 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,960 a way to, I think, of course, as you said, 179 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,080 she had to earn it through the work, 180 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,080 but it gave her an opening to an incredibly wide audience. 181 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:29,920 - Right. 182 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,640 - So that's exactly what we're referring to 183 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,160 when we say reputation renting. 184 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:35,720 I know it sounds reputation renting. 185 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,080 I know it sounds cynical, 186 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,360 but that's kind of the term that we used to describe 187 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:41,200 that phenomenon. 188 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,400 Now, having said that, she had had a lot of clout 189 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,280 in and of herself and a lot of history 190 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,280 and performance to get to that moment 191 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,040 for them to even say yes, right? 192 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,160 So that cannot be lost, right? 193 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,720 It's not like she spent a year or two during prep work 194 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,840 in order to, you know, 195 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,120 - This is why I think the term reaching is problematic, right? 196 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,120 - Sure. 197 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,920 - That is hard validation. 198 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,760 - Well, okay, but the renting part is that 199 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,280 she's renting their audience. 200 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,720 Those are not audiences that she has on her own, 201 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,400 but the goal here is to tap into audiences 202 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,080 that are not on her radar. 203 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,080 People who don't know her, 204 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,400 but they know Willie Nelson, they know Dolly Parton, 205 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,200 they know Miley Cyrus, they was it Post Malone, I think? 206 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,160 And they know those artists, they hear the song, 207 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,240 they learn the song, they like the song. 208 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:28,840 Oh, who's the co-singer here? 209 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:29,960 It's Beyonce. 210 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,880 What else does Beyonce sing? 211 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:33,760 I might be right looking these other areas. 212 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,600 So that's the idea is that these are not her audiences 213 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,480 rather the song and she's using, 214 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,280 she's tapping into another one. 215 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,760 I know it's a crash wave of describing it, 216 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,680 but it's simply that and they may be your audience now, 217 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:51,440 but prior to the engagement, right? 218 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:52,760 That's, I think that's easy. 219 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,720 - I think of it as kicking open the door 220 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,440 or maybe having a foot in the door 221 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,960 and then bursting through if Dolly Parton 222 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:02,400 or Willie Nelson gets you a foot in the door with that audience. 223 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,000 And then what's up to you is moving through 224 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,520 with something that is really compelling 225 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,080 to hold that audience. 226 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,240 - Well, she still has to turn their attention. 227 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:12,240 - That's true. 228 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,880 Okay, well, so that certainly has to occur, 229 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,200 but the act itself and the reason for engaging it 230 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,400 is because they have access to audiences 231 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:21,680 that she doesn't have. 232 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:23,960 Okay, I wanna move on to another one here, right? 233 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:25,800 - Well, before we leave that, let's just, 234 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,120 there's a statistic about that that really jumped out at me. 235 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,080 And that was spotify at the end of every calendar year, 236 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,520 puts out Spotify, wrapped up your Spotify customer. 237 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:35,360 It's very cool. 238 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,360 It talks to you about your listening habits, 239 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,680 but they also have some aggregate statistics. 240 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:40,880 And this was an amazing one. 241 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,160 Spotify said cowboy Carter was streamed 242 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,280 by 36 million listeners who had never streamed 243 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,480 country music before. 244 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,520 - Yeah, look, that number is staggering. 245 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:53,920 I mean, because it's very clear, 246 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,160 it's not just about Beyonce winning an award, 247 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,640 it's about who she brought to the genre. 248 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,520 That's not crossover, that's an expansion. 249 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,640 - I think one of the most powerful things that you can do 250 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,280 when the spotlight is on you is to share it 251 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,600 or shine it on someone else. 252 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,360 And so much of the album is dedicated to acknowledging 253 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,640 overlooked, if not forgotten, 254 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,840 black pioneers in country music like Linda Martel. 255 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,280 You have these country legends who are on the album. 256 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,680 Beyonce does her own updated version of JoLine 257 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:28,760 with Dolly Parton on the record. 258 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,640 I thought it's really, really powerful 259 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,160 that she's able to educate her audience 260 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,320 at the same time as entertaining them. 261 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,880 - I think it was in the top 10 for nine weeks, 262 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,680 even Taylor Swift's album was only in the top 10 for four weeks. 263 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:48,160 Now, the difference is, is that Taylor Swift's album 264 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,320 stayed in the top 40 much longer, 265 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,760 and Beyonce's album dropped off, 266 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,160 but this is the point about resilience, right? 267 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,160 It twofold, number one, here we are, 268 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,800 we're talking about it again after her winning the Grammy. 269 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,880 Okay, so it certainly said she stuck it out, right? 270 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:09,040 And she did not die, but there, 271 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,240 there was that moment there, I kind of questioned it. 272 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,400 It's like it died out and it's like, 273 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,280 I'm seeing more on it on social media 274 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,160 than I am on iTunes or Spotify, 275 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,680 and it's more paid influencers than it is. 276 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:29,480 People really engaging with the music, 277 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,080 but I wanna hit on the other things 278 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,320 that you're talking about about authenticity, right? 279 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,240 'Cause I think, number one, it's such a buzzword. 280 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,160 And I'm like, I'm almost, I don't wanna say, 281 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:39,760 but I'm close. 282 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:40,600 (laughing) 283 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,640 It's real though, I mean, it literally is real authenticity. 284 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:44,840 Yeah, yeah, okay, so-- 285 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:45,840 It's a thing. 286 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,040 Yeah, it is a thing. 287 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,040 And actually, I wish we spent more time 288 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,120 talking about authenticity as a thing 289 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,360 rather than authenticity is something that people claim 290 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,200 or authenticity that people feel, right? 291 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,520 I do think that there should be something here 292 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:01,840 that we can define, and agree. 293 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,040 If you're authentic, then you're not able 294 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:05,160 to just make a claim, right? 295 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:06,520 That's the whole thing. 296 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:07,440 Yeah, yeah. 297 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,640 But when we look at, I mean, we should be able 298 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,800 to look at the behavior here and see the same thing 299 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,920 and then all have a reasonable discussion 300 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,400 about whether or not it meets the standard of authenticity. 301 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,360 Otherwise, it's just vibes, 302 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,600 or it's just a perception with no foundation. 303 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,360 So when we're talking about Beyonce and authenticity, 304 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,320 the real question isn't just, do people believe she's authentic? 305 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:32,160 Right? 306 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:33,400 And of course, that's part of a brand, right? 307 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,960 Her brand is that she is a woman of authenticity. 308 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,160 She sets the standards and she lives by those standards 309 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,760 and this idea of being record-breaking 310 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,760 and category-breaking is part of her brand. 311 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,400 But here's the thing. 312 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,400 Authenticity is a little bit of a double-edged sword here, right? 313 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,480 Because it's not just about what an artist claims 314 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,680 and it's not just about what an audience feels. 315 00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:00,280 Country music, and I'm not saying this 316 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,040 'cause I'm from Nashville and I'm supposed to be 317 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,520 this country music affictionado here, 318 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,760 but I think it could apply to anything here. 319 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,200 But in this case, country music fans 320 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,120 have their own standards for what's authentic 321 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,440 and they should get us a. 322 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,480 Now, the question is, right? 323 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:15,640 I mean, this is part of the rub. 324 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,160 I mean, should she be playing to them? 325 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,480 Does she care about their standards 326 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:22,720 of what country music is? 327 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,400 That's part of what makes us so interesting 328 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,040 and complicated here, right? 329 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,880 But, so a couple of things. 330 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,520 One, the question is, the Beyonce see this 331 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,400 as a long-term commitment to shaping country music? 332 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,040 Okay, or is this just a stop on her journey? 333 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,600 As she moves on to the next thing with her next album 334 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,760 because ironically, moving on as part of her authenticity, 335 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:45,600 I would say, right? 336 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,760 She reinvents, she evolves, she doesn't just stay in one place 337 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,040 and that's, I think Hannah was hitting on. 338 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,400 That's part of what attracts people too, or that's her brand, 339 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,520 her ability to take charge of her life, 340 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,240 to take charge of her narrative, to reinvent herself. 341 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,360 But Donna and Lady Gaga have had their moments 342 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,800 like, I don't know if she's going to be able to do that, 343 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,520 but this is one with real staying power 344 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,200 and it's the one that matters right now. 345 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,680 And I think also the authenticity side is about whether or not 346 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:17,080 she should have attended the CMAs. 347 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,360 Well, I mean, there's a, there's a difficult history there 348 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,760 because she did attend the CMAs in 2016 349 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:27,440 and she, she herself said she did not feel welcome. 350 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,880 And others who were there said that she was not, 351 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,080 she was not treated well. 352 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,160 One of my other frameworks that informed my views on this 353 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,280 is the trace framework that I use. 354 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,400 And the framework is really important for the conversation 355 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,720 that we're having now because we're in a field of communications. 356 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,040 We're dealing with dialogue, misunderstandings, 357 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,000 conflict management, bringing people to the table, 358 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,160 convening, but we're also in an environment 359 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,760 of such intense misinformation right now 360 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,480 where everybody has not only their own opinion, 361 00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:59,880 they have their own facts. 362 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,440 To framework, it's very helpful for bringing people 363 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,160 to the table who have different opinions, 364 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:10,600 different vantage points to say, look, I might not be on your side, 365 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,920 okay, but let's get everything on the table 366 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,120 for us to look at together. 367 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,320 And so the, the trace framework is talk relationships, 368 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,120 action, context and engagement. 369 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,040 Like those are the areas if we look at everything 370 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,360 it's being said through the news media, 371 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,720 through the trade press, through social media, 372 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,920 through podcasts, that looking at those categories, 373 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,480 what she's saying, what her peers are saying, 374 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,880 what listeners are saying, what the judges of the CMAs are saying, 375 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,960 what cultural critics are saying, 376 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,560 some of the things that those framework does 377 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,560 is it allows us to look objectively at what's going on. 378 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:46,640 The unfortunate side. 379 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,800 And I think this would be like one of the last lessons 380 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,000 of reputation kind of tapping into the dark side 381 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,480 of reputation here. 382 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,440 But it's also a little bit about authenticity. 383 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,360 Is that from an engagement perspective, 384 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,120 she spent more time expanding the category into new areas. 385 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,120 I didn't see as much of her engaging her. 386 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,520 Previous audience and bringing them along on the journey, 387 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,280 right, of the educational side of the album 388 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,360 and introducing them to the country music. 389 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,560 And I felt like I saw more on her brand partnership side, right? 390 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,120 So, reputationally speaking, 391 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,720 I'm concerned that one of the lasting impacts of the album is 392 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,160 and the lessons for crossing communications 393 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,880 and those that study reputation is, 394 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,280 how do you build reputation? 395 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,040 Well, it should be about performance. 396 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,720 It should be about the craft, the album itself. 397 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,320 And as I listen to the discourse around it, 398 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,760 I don't hear as much love for the songs. 399 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,040 I don't hear as much love for the fans. 400 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,680 I hear being an innovator, 401 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,480 being a category breaker, being a category expanderer, 402 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,240 creating your own narrative, things around the album, 403 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:58,440 rather than the album. 404 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,640 So, I'm wondering, I'm left wondering, 405 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,000 on the album, are we going to remember more about the discourse 406 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,760 about what it means to be a category breaker? 407 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,480 We're going to have more discussions about the album 408 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,800 being an example of that phenomenon. 409 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,280 Then we are about the album and that's going back 410 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:19,200 and listening to the album for the songs itself. 411 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,520 We need to be careful about our checking the box 412 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,200 and to where we separate ourselves from this desire 413 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,840 for awards, desire for winning, 414 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,800 as being the ultimate validator, 415 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,560 rather than being the product or the experience 416 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,800 that consumers have with the product. 417 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,440 Yeah, I don't think you ever want to lead, 418 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,080 when I don't know that this was the case with Beyonce 419 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,520 or anybody that I've seen in the Grammy's Roundup, 420 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,760 I don't think you should ever lead with an award. 421 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,720 I think that you should be doing things for the right reasons 422 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,000 and you should be seen doing them for the right reasons. 423 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,040 So, I can't validate that observation. 424 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,680 Well, look, the reality is she's doing other things. 425 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,920 She's having cultural impact in other ways. 426 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,320 I mean, there her investment in another artist. 427 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,880 There's a lot of things, philanthropically speaking, 428 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,920 where she is making her impact. 429 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,560 Those are, and I don't want to disregard any of those. 430 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,760 I'm just saying for this moment, to ironic, I would almost say, 431 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,240 it's almost like a paradox of some of our award categories here 432 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,040 that we seem to be more concerned with the category 433 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,000 than the content of the album, right? 434 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,360 I mean, I want to be able to go back and say 435 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:32,440 from an educational perspective, 436 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,200 hey, this is why I need to go back and listen to this album, 437 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,120 right? Here are some stories that inform that. 438 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:40,040 And this song, this is what this song does, right? 439 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,160 So, my concern is that we're going to remember 440 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,720 the discourse around it and her legend. 441 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:47,320 That may be right. 442 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,560 I think that's part of the reason that the conversation goes 443 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,480 to where you're describing is because it's not news 444 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,000 that Beyoncé puts out a great album, or that Beyoncé puts 445 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,520 out an album that is really engaging to people. 446 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,600 She has literally been nominated more than anyone ever. 447 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,520 She has one more awards than anyone ever. 448 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,000 And so, I think that is sort of just not the Newsy part 449 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,680 of the story, but it's not to say that it shouldn't be the focus 450 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,960 of the artist or even the fans, but I think that's probably why 451 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,760 you hear more about that than you would, oh my gosh, 452 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,440 she put out a great album because that part doesn't really 453 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:22,440 surprise anybody. 454 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,040 And set aside your subjective opinion as whether you like it 455 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,600 or not, the fact that people are engaged with it, 456 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,520 interested in it, supporting it, dancing to it. 457 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,720 I'm trying to hit on this from the authenticity side, right? 458 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,040 I look from a resilience perspective, I am a fan. 459 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,800 She is a hero there, somebody that we can all learn. 460 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:41,640 - It's hard not to be. 461 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,040 - Right, absolutely, absolutely. 462 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:48,040 She is the pinnacle for resilience and for redefinition 463 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:53,640 and rebuilding our lives and new ways in taking control 464 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:54,480 over destiny. 465 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:55,920 She's a great example of that. 466 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,880 But the flip side of that is, is that part of that 467 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:00,800 did involve silence here, right? 468 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,800 There was a period of time where the album dipped, 469 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,640 it was no longer relevant, and it's back on a radar 470 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,640 because now she's won the award, right? 471 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,640 And so I would have loved to see from her, her own confidence 472 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,640 in the album to announce the tour before the award ceremony, 473 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:25,400 and until waiting, until after the award. 474 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:26,400 - I don't think you need to. 475 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,760 You have all those eyeballs on the Grammys 476 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,560 and you're banking that, you know, your-- 477 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:32,680 - Well, if you're not gonna win, 478 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,040 you're at least gonna be a topic of conversation 479 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,600 and then you'll reach that into a big, so- 480 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,120 - Okay, what I'm saying is, 481 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:42,440 there's a real possibility that she might not have had the tour, 482 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,040 had she not won the award, right? 483 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,360 - No, she wouldn't. 484 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:48,360 - You know, of course she would have. 485 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:49,440 - It's just about the announcement. 486 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,000 It's just about the sequencing of the announcement 487 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,280 that I told you. - She had eight months 488 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:54,120 to make sure-- - Yeah, for sure. 489 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:54,960 - Announcements. 490 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,480 Well, my point being, now I don't have enough time to plan. 491 00:20:58,480 --> 00:20:59,320 (laughing) 492 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,200 Okay, now I can't go, 'cause I need more notice for that 493 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,560 if I'm gonna go to the concert. 494 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,320 So that's really what I'm gonna do. 495 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,360 - That could be a demographic issue too, 496 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:08,720 okay, no offense. 497 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:09,560 - Yeah. 498 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:10,400 - Okay, look. 499 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,600 - I wanna ask my final question here as we wrap up, 500 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,160 'cause we've covered a lot. 501 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,400 And my question is, what was your favorite track on the album? 502 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,560 - Look, it's gotta be, okay, sure, look, 503 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,040 Texas Hold 'em is catchy, I don't know, honestly. 504 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,800 I wanna song that I can listen to in front of my nephews 505 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,320 and nieces, like they're older, 506 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,520 they can handle the language and so on, but still, 507 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,520 I want something that I can listen to 508 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,560 and not like, feel like I have to have my headset on 509 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,400 because of the language. 510 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,920 And look, I grew up in the Land of Dali partin' 511 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,480 and, you know, spent a little time there at her park 512 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,040 and was actually in their, 513 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,320 and the brochure when I was a little kid 514 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,600 for the turtle races there at the Dali Lance park there. 515 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,200 So, I have some ties, I have some other ties there 516 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,920 to, you know, to country music and so on. 517 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,680 But so, all that to say, her take on Jolene was interesting. 518 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,240 And it's more from a, I would say, a trivia or historical 519 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,000 perspective because it's not the same Jolene, right? 520 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,520 - This is not your Jolene. 521 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,320 - This is not your Jolene's man. 522 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:19,400 - It's not your mother's Jolene. 523 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,000 - This is not your mother's Jolene. 524 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,000 That's right, exactly. 525 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,360 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 526 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:25,520 I got this from like, Rich Bullens, 527 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,280 who I think was influenced by Francis of Assisi on this, 528 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,280 but it has really shaped my thinking on reputation, 529 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:34,600 scared me a little bit. 530 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:39,600 You know, a person who has an ambition to leave a legacy, 531 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,240 usually leaves a legacy of ambition. 532 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:44,520 - All good food for Thought Craig 533 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,840 and we appreciate your insights on connecting Beyonce 534 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,760 to reputation lessons we can all learn from. 535 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,080 That is our show for this week. 536 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,200 A special thank you to our friend Hannah Wong 537 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,320 for sharing her thoughts on Beyonce. 538 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,680 As always, we wanna thank Shawn P Neal 539 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,520 and the PeopleForward Network for making our podcast possible. 540 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,800 If you'd like to tell us what you think, 541 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,040 we'd love to hear from you. 542 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,320 Our email address is podcast@ocrnetwork.com. 543 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,240 And if you have your favorite Beyonce song 544 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,240 from the album, send it to us, right? 545 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:14,840 Let us know what you think of the album 546 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,520 and let's get a conversation going about that. 547 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,520 - Mine was Flamenco, by the way, thanks for asking. 548 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,440 Communication breakdown is a production 549 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,960 of the Observatory on corporate reputation. 550 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,120 I'm Steve Dowling. 551 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:25,960 - And I'm Craig Carroll. 552 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:26,800 Thanks for listening. 553 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:27,960 We'll be back next week. 554 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,540 555 00:23:30,540 --> 00:23:35,540 556 00:23:35,540 --> 00:23:40,540 557 00:23:40,540 --> 00:23:45,540 558 00:23:45,540 --> 00:23:50,540