Latest / The Nonprofit Podcast / Ep 210| The Board Blind Spot: Assessment Is the Key to Better Governance - with David Rhode

Transcript

Ep 210| The Board Blind Spot: Assessment Is the Key to Better Governance - with David Rhode · The Nonprofit Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's a board member who is passionate, deeply committed.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: And technically, yes, they are a volunteer, but they are also slowly driving your executive director insane.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're checking in with your staff without looping in your executive director.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're stalling board vote decisions for no good reason.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: And when someone finally speaks up, the board shrugs, well, that's just how they are.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: They're well-meaning.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, your best staff are planning their exit because a good board with good intentions but zero boundaries is still a dysfunctional board.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking with David Rhode about board assessments and why skipping a board assessment costs you more than you think.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: The Nonprofit Podcast, powered by DonorBox.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Nonprofit Podcast.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Britt Stalker, your fundraiser coach over here at DonorBox.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Each week we bring you practical information and clear insights to help you raise more, reach further, and take your nonprofit to the next level.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: My guest today has been on our show before, David Rhode.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: He has spent 14 years building pitch in for baseball and softball from the ground up, getting equipment into the hands of children who needed it the most.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now he runs.org.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: He mentors nonprofit CEOs, and he teaches at University of Pennsylvania, where he's also just published a book, Passion Isn't Enough, a practical guide for nonprofit leaders.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: David, hey, it is good to have you back as always.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: It is so good to be here.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited about our conversation today.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, David, the board member that I just described, right?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Most boards, they have one.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're passionate, they're showing up to the board meetings, but they can be extremely disruptive for the entire organization.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, what often happens is boards they go that extra step to protect them.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think this happens?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, well, Brett, I think what tends to go wrong, and this kind of happens all the time, is that we don't do a thorough enough job of explaining what is expected of board members before they join the board.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: We we don't really help them understand where the staff and the board add value.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: We don't help them understand what might be required of them in terms of their time, or if there's a financial component, hopefully there is, in terms of their participation on the board.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: We should have a deep dive at all of these things.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: So when they come on board, they're not making it up as they go along or trusting their instincts.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: They're following a playbook that you've laid out for them.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it gets back to just not having clear expectations.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then things can go sideways from that point.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I bet every ED has a story like this.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: I, in the first few years I was an ED, I look back where we did our first board evaluation, and there was one board member.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: She spent a good part of the meeting talking about how scary it was to hire the organization's first paid staff member, which was me.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so awkward.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Can you define what a board self-assessment is a little bit more for our listeners?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a board self-assessment, it's really a vehicle to help give the board members a voice and an opportunity to express how they feel about being a board member, how they think the board is performing as a whole, and where there might be opportunities to improve.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think there's a definitive perfect board self-assessment.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: However, the ones I have seen and used over the years kind of have a number of different areas.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: The first area is the role as a board member, their level of engagement.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Was the role explained up front?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Were they onboarded properly?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Do they feel comfortable speaking up at board meetings?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: You can frame these questions any number of ways.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: The second area deals with financial oversight.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Do they understand what's happening to the organization?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: And from a financial perspective, and do they feel that the organization's on good financial ground?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Fundraising support.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Do they feel comfortable in this role?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do they feel others and themselves are contributing as expected?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Are the board meetings effective?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: You could have a range of questions dealing with board meetings themselves.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's where a lot of times there's a big missed opportunity in terms of, you know, having of sort of leveraging the wisdom and the experience of your board.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the culture and diversity, you know, does the board reflect the community it serves?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: What is their opinion on that?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Are board members being held accountable for their performance?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: Then there's a leadership sort of partnership component to a self-assessment.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Essentially, is there a good relationship between the staff and the board?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: And is the board getting the kind of information they feel they need to be effective?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then lastly, there's a there's room for open-ended questions.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: How can the board be better?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Where should we be spending more time?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: Things of that nature.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that's sort of the general lay of the land in terms of a board self-assessment.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's really meant to give people a chance.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they're not comfortable doing it.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: These should be done anonymously, by the way.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's you know, having board members to express these things one-on-one might be uncomfortable.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: They might have things to say about you as the executive director.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's important to gather this information and unearth it because if you don't know what's going on, there's no way you can address any considerations or problems.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm hearing, David, in this is it's not necessarily about board members trying to be difficult or anything about, you know, board members as having difficult personalities.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's just literally a lack of a framework or or training.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that kind of what you're expressing here?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yes.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Do we all have stories of people going a little rogue in an individual board meeting?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: People are people, people are messy, that's fine.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, over the long haul, when boards are or aren't effective, then there's just a misalignment in terms of what board meetings are intending to accomplish, what board members feel that their roles are, uh, things of that nature.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, there's always going to be some personality conflicts or some approaches that maybe need a one-on-one conversation to encourage people to be a little bit more self-aware about how their comments might be impacting other people.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: But uh, for the most part, this is just broad brush board member stuff that, you know, board members are smart.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: You want their opinion.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: And if you if you can ask thoughtful questions, you might get some valuable information.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I imagine there has to be like a cost on the lack of having an assessment or even like a tax on the organization.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think is actually costing the organization when boards skip those assessments?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very important question.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: To me, what the board is losing is this vital information.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Without the feedback, we as leaders and the board as a whole, we're just making assumptions on key points.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, without this data, we just don't know what we don't know.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: And we risk not uncovering problems that may exist.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it could be a disgruntled board member.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they really just don't feel valued.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, maybe we have situations that if we're not listening carefully, we might, we might lose some of our biggest potential funders and brand ambassadors.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the end result is simply that we can't fix what we don't understand.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: And are we seeing any patterns to these answers?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: If one board member says something, that's one thing.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: If two or three of them say a similar thing, then we should, you know, we should pay very close attention and try to figure out how to correct that kind of a problem.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel if we're just in an information deficit, then we're not going to be able to function at our highest level.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it goes back to that, like, this is not necessarily a boundary violation or some icky power dynamic between the board and ED.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: The real problem is, again, just lack of this evaluation process.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any invisible signs that the staff should be looking out for to kind of nudge the board chair of like, hey, you know, it's time to do a board assessment.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any signs that you've seen which would kind of signal a good time to do that?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't, I don't know that you need to have, first of all, I think it's a good best practice to do regardless, even for the best functioning boards.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't need a flashing red light or some kind of a meltdown moment to do a self-assessment.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: That being said, I think some of the telltale signs that an assessment can be valuable is what's the sense of level of engagement from the board, sort of generally or individually?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: What's happening?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: What's the dynamic in your board meetings?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Are people comfortable speaking up?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when the topic of fundraising comes up, are people all looking at their feet or are they creatively trying to problem solve and and get engaged?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, what when board members are not engaged, either individually or as a whole, um, there's a there's something missing.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe this is the best time to begin to let them express their opinions.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: People like to speak.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think if we let them speak and then listen to what they have to say, even the act of doing that will be valuable.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: What's even more valuable is when we take uh meaningful action and try to correct some of the problems that they identify.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I want to kind of delve into just the cost a little bit more.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily like a moral cost.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: The lack of an assessment has financial implications on the nonprofit.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think about just, and we we probably don't have the numbers to throw out, but what it costs to replace an executive director, right?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's the recruiting, the onboarding, all of that institutional knowledge, the cost to hire and bring in an interim executive director, that's huge, right?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I see the value of this.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if most of our listeners, right, they're nonprofit leaders, we might have consultants tuning in.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: If we have board members, they realize that they've become a bottleneck, not on purpose, but they need some help.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: What is step one?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: If they've never done an assessment, what's step one?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then is this something, David, that they can do DIY?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or is this something that they have to bring in someone like you to kind of navigate it?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so let's let's pull that apart.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think step one involves making this a discussion point at the next board meeting and letting them know that a best practice for any board is a self-assessment.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: How are we doing?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: So let's normalize this.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Let's not treat this as we are sick and we need a fix and we're we're some kind of an outlier.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: The best boards get feedback on how they're doing, just like any employee has a performance review.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: So this is sort of a performance review for the board, and you're the board, you should have a vote in how you think it's going or how you think it could get better.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we first bring it up for conversation and normalize it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: The second thing is you you create which you can do on your own or do with a consultant, and we'll talk a little bit about why.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: But let's say you get to the point we have a draft of what those questions might be.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you could use the internet to your benefit to come up with one, but whatever initial draft you get of a board of self-assessment, then you share it with the board members and ask them, what did they think about these questions?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything that we've missed?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: And give them a chance to sort of buy into the structure of it.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then from that point, it's really creating a simple Google form and sending a link around with a completion date and say, please get this in by this date so we can have time to analyze and assess it before we get together the next time as a board and talk about how we're going to address some of these challenges.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's opening up for debate and normalizing the challenge.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you do it yourself or or bring in a consultant, you know, this is a little bit like having a board retreat.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Can you facilitate your own retreat?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is it better sometimes to have a third party who's doesn't own or feel as maybe personal about the information that's being presented to them?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is value to having an outside voice, share this stuff because they can put it in context of how this is a common challenge in other organizations.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: And these are proven strategies to help correct it versus the executive director having all the weight on their shoulders saying, this is what I would like to do to fix it.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then it becomes a us them thing.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think a consultant can facilitate the conversation and maybe make it a little bit more, hey, this is fine.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is normal.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is the kind of stuff I see all the time.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: It does need to be addressed, but here's how we've done that in the past.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that would be uh comforting for boards to have and the executive director to have that kind of perspective and not feel, whoa is me, when they see the responses.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love the idea of having board buy-in when it comes to creating the list of assessment questions.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I imagine there's every board out there terrified.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's an elephant in the room.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a question that they're just terrified to ask.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And this is kind of where a good consultant, a neutral, independent party can come in to encourage them to ask that question and to have a candid discussion about it.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: In all of your work working with a lot of nonprofit boards, have you seen one question that every board is just absolutely mortified to ask?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it's mortified.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think I see certain questions as having particular value.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, in a in a board assessment, there is different types of questions.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: There are more closed-end questions where you would have a scale of strongly disagree to strongly agree.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: And when you ask questions like that, you can not only get more of an objective response, but you can actually set a benchmark to compare future assessments against.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And some of the questions that I see in those more discreet questions are things like I have a clear understanding of my roles and responsibilities of board member.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: I feel comfortable and supported in contributing to fundraising.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Board members have the appropriate messaging data and tools to represent the organization effectively.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Questions like that, I think, do well in those kind of strongly agree to strongly disagree type of metrics.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of the open-ended questions, that's the ones where we might have to just like white knuckle it a little bit when we don't know what we're going to get.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that's where a lot of the real value always comes from.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to ask the questions like, what is the one area where our board could improve to be more effective?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: I also like to ask things, where do you think the board should be spending more time and attention?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: So we, as the executive director, sometimes are fully setting the agenda for board meetings and running them.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: In other situations, more traditionally, the board president is setting the agenda and running the board meetings.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: And in many situations, it's a shared responsibility.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: But that doesn't mean that we don't have blind spots and we don't need to open up our minds as to things that we're not we're not covering.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we're not discussing succession planning.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we're not discussing, you know, data breaches.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we're not discussing the use of AI within our within our community, whatever the things may be.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um I think that combination of closed-ed and open-ended questions are important.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that there's one magic question.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: I wish there was.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um they're all valuable.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we we we've defined board assessments, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've we've we've given them a framework.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the thing I see in coaching is it's one thing to teach a theory, but how do we move as a board from, okay, we did the assessment, we had a very productive, proactive conversation.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: How do we move to making those changes, to implementing those changes?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Any guidance you can offer up there, David?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's important that, and this applies generally as leaders, that we don't overpromise.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: If we see four or five things that come out of the board assessment, we're not going to be able to tackle all four or five of those things at the same time or maybe thoroughly.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's important to prioritize.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm a big believer in doing fewer things well.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that this is one of those situations.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: If you get the results from the board assessment, then again, it's an opportunity to share the data, first of all, and then say, of all these things on here, what is the thing that you think we need to address first as a group?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then collectively set the agenda and the priority order.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: So then you start working on the first thing.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think where you can run amok is twofold.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: One is you just here's the results, and then you get busy doing everything else and you ignore them, and then people will feel like they wasted their time.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's bad.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: The second thing is to start doing everything and running in a million directions.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Listen, we're we're the executive director, we've got a full plate already.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: So to take on one additional thing at a time, that would be enough.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have to just become the fix-it board person.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna address these systemic issues, we're gonna address them over time, and we're gonna take them one at a time.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's what I would do.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would, I would do fewer things well and do them as the board has identified those priorities.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think the thing I'm taking away from the conversation, thank you so much, David, is this is the assessment process is something ongoing.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: We know that there are term limits, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so would you say with the cadence of assessments, is this something that they obviously should do at least once, but as a regular thing, it's an ongoing type of thing.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: This this again, if we're normalizing our, you know, if we're doing a performance review for an individual once a year, we should be doing a performance review, if you will, for the board once a year.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: People roll off boards, people join boards.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: The board is a living, breathing entity.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: So the board of 2025 and the board of 2026 are likely not the same.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then as you get down the road, there's always this incremental change.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe there's major change.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe a new board president has come in and there's a whole different tenor to the way the board is operating and what's expected of the board.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I just think baking this in on a regular basis is necessary.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then the more data you have, the more that you can compare.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, by the way, you look at how we answered this question three years ago and look at how we're answering it today.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: We've gotten so much better at this.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: You can give yourself credit collectively for having really worked on and resolved some issues.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I think doing it once a year is good business.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Again, you want to make sure you're not asking people to complete a two-hour survey here.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: This should take 15 to 20 minutes if you do it in a smart manner.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: So people are investing a reasonable amount of time.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're not swimming in data, you're getting the right information, and then you can act on it accordingly.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a mind shift, too.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know 10 years later, looking back when I was an ED, the board chair, there there was so much frustration, but she struggled.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: She really advocated for me so many times, right?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: She had a full-time job, family.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: She just didn't have that structure, the framework, the training, like a third party to help with that checklist and that assessment.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this kind of takes kind of ragging on the board from a staff perspective to something that is more productive.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate you bringing that lens.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: David, anything else you want to share with our audience before we log off here?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: I just encourage people to understand the basic notion that knowledge is power.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, sticking your head in the sand and hoping that your board doesn't really have any problems is an unlikely dynamic to have the highest performing board.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I think we have to welcome the knowledge, the best leaders that I've observed, understand there's going to be positive and negative feedback all the time.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And having a growth mindset, I think is is a positive, you know, framework for going through life and for being a leader of a nonprofit organization.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And this kind of a self-assessment, I think is just one of the tools that should be in your toolbox.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Spot on.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, everyone um listening in, we're gonna drop David's website and his book, Passion Isn't Enough, in the show notes.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: If this episode hit home, please do share it with someone in your boardroom, um, someone you know.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: We gotta start this conversation.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: David, thanks again.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we do this same time next year, eh?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Brett, I'm you know where to find me.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks so much.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being part of the nonprofit podcast community.
• 21:01
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• 21:04
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• 21:06
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• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, take that first step and stay inspired.
• 21:14
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• 21:19
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• 21:25
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• 21:28
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• 21:29
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