Latest / The You Project / #1826 Perfectionism - Dr. Lillian Nejad

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#1826 Perfectionism - Dr. Lillian Nejad · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: Doctor Lilly and welcome back to the Youth Project.
0:03
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Craig.
0:05
Speaker 1: As your day going. It's Friday? Are you stumbling towards
0:08
Speaker 1: the end of the week.
0:09
Speaker 2: Oh, it's actually been a really hectic day, more than usual.
0:14
Speaker 2: Normally my Fridays are less hectic, but my husband's been
0:19
Speaker 2: out of town for like a week and a half,
0:21
Speaker 2: so I've been taxiing constantly and just had more things
0:27
Speaker 2: on over the last week and a half than I
0:29
Speaker 2: normally would. So yeah, I'm looking forward to the end
0:32
Speaker 2: of today, except for this part, because this part's fun.
0:36
Speaker 1: Well that's good. That's good. Thanks for coming to have
0:39
Speaker 1: a chat with us. What before we get onto our
0:41
Speaker 1: topic at hand, what stresses you like in the middle
0:47
Speaker 1: of the business in Mayhem? Does that produce anxiety and
0:49
Speaker 1: stress or is it just like just it's I'm just
0:53
Speaker 1: busy and I don't hate it, but it's just boxes
0:56
Speaker 1: that's got to be ticked.
0:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that completely on my attitude on that day.
1:02
Speaker 2: Like sometimes I can, just like everybody, get overly stressed
1:08
Speaker 2: about the reality that I'm in and that just makes
1:11
Speaker 2: everything worse and that causes all kinds of other problems
1:16
Speaker 2: that really aren't necessary, like being touchy or short with
1:20
Speaker 2: my kids or like stuff like that, or like really
1:25
Speaker 2: like road rage. Ye wo wow, I'm very impatient on
1:30
Speaker 2: the road. That's probably the place that I have the most.
1:33
Speaker 2: I don't know, like I'm I'm the least regulated, I
1:37
Speaker 2: think when I'm driving, probably yeah, And my kids make
1:42
Speaker 2: fun of me as well, which I'm glad they make
1:44
Speaker 2: fun of me, and they hopefully won't follow on my example,
1:46
Speaker 2: and I try to work on it. But it's like
1:49
Speaker 2: my safe place to express an anger and annoyance. But
1:54
Speaker 2: like if I have a if I have a better attitude,
1:57
Speaker 2: which is like this is just the way it is,
1:59
Speaker 2: and you know, like I'm like, for instance, for the
2:03
Speaker 2: last week and a half, i know that it's up
2:05
Speaker 2: to me to kind of be in charge of everything,
2:08
Speaker 2: and then I'm going to need to work out dinner
2:11
Speaker 2: every night, and I'm going to have to pick up
2:12
Speaker 2: the kids from wherever they need to be picked up
2:14
Speaker 2: from and drop them off and that's all on me.
2:17
Speaker 2: And if I have an acceptance about that, I don't
2:21
Speaker 2: feel as stressed. I feel like now I'm just doing
2:24
Speaker 2: what I need to do. So I think it just
2:26
Speaker 2: comes down to attitude, doesn't it.
2:28
Speaker 1: Do you ever feel like a little bit Do you
2:30
Speaker 1: ever feel like people analyze you more closely because you're
2:37
Speaker 1: a psychologist and they expect that, rightly or wrongly, that
2:43
Speaker 1: you'd have less issues and you'd be more in control
2:46
Speaker 1: and more evolved, Like I'm not even you. And I
2:51
Speaker 1: feel like people pay a lot of attention to shit
2:54
Speaker 1: with me, especially if I'm out and I'm eeting and
2:58
Speaker 1: someone comes in. People are very interested in what I
3:01
Speaker 1: put in my math, which is hilarious.
3:04
Speaker 2: That is interesting. Yeah, Oh, for sure. There are assumptions made.
3:09
Speaker 2: I think about me, and I think maybe anyone in
3:12
Speaker 2: mental health profession a lot. A lot of the common
3:18
Speaker 2: assumptions are, yeah, that you know, I'm in control and
3:21
Speaker 2: calm all the time. I get that a lot. Oh,
3:25
Speaker 2: you're so calm and you must be like that all
3:28
Speaker 2: and your children must really appreciate that about you, And
3:30
Speaker 2: I'm like, you don't meet my kids. You know, I'm
3:35
Speaker 2: not always calm. I'm like a human and I experienced
3:38
Speaker 2: a whole range of emotions just like everybody else. I
3:42
Speaker 2: think the difference is that I'm less judgmental of myself.
3:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I.
3:49
Speaker 2: Think that that's The other thing that people often assume
3:52
Speaker 2: is that I'm constantly analyzing and judging them because that's
3:56
Speaker 2: their perception of what I do for a living. But
3:59
Speaker 2: that's not That's not what I do for a living. Yes,
4:02
Speaker 2: I actually judge people. I don't judge people like that's
4:06
Speaker 2: the whole point of being a psychologist is to understand people.
4:09
Speaker 2: So if anything, I'm less judgmental, not more. But I'm
4:14
Speaker 2: also again a human, So I have moments where I'm judgy,
4:18
Speaker 2: but no more or less I think than any other
4:20
Speaker 2: person would be. But I have like maybe that extra
4:23
Speaker 2: layer of awareness and insight when I'm doing it. Mm
4:27
Speaker 2: So that I.
4:29
Speaker 1: Used to have this conversation with with my trainers, and
4:33
Speaker 1: I know, well, it's not a very different job. It's
4:36
Speaker 1: not that different. So when you're a trainer, you know,
4:40
Speaker 1: like especially my guys and girls that the men and
4:43
Speaker 1: women that worked for me and I had over the years,
4:46
Speaker 1: I had five hundred of them, so a lot of trainers.
4:49
Speaker 1: And my biggest center, which was up on the Highway
4:51
Speaker 1: in Brighton, I would have on the floor in a
4:54
Speaker 1: busy period we would have thirty trainers on the floor right,
4:58
Speaker 1: So thirty trainers each with A or two, and some
5:01
Speaker 1: of my busy trainers would do regularly fifty sessions a week,
5:06
Speaker 1: which is a lot of PT.
5:07
Speaker 2: That's a lot.
5:08
Speaker 1: And with the PT, apart from you know, lift this,
5:11
Speaker 1: run there, skip that, whatever stretch that there's all the
5:15
Speaker 1: physiology that's going on, but there's the psychology. And even
5:20
Speaker 1: though you know the trainers on the floor are not
5:23
Speaker 1: psychologists or counselors for the most part, they are kind
5:27
Speaker 1: of and not trying to play the role of one either.
5:30
Speaker 1: But the reality is that when you've been like I
5:33
Speaker 1: trained one lady five days a week for sixteen years, right,
5:38
Speaker 1: shout out to Pauline. Now, we had tens of thousands
5:42
Speaker 1: of conversations. I don't know it's tens, but thousands of
5:45
Speaker 1: conversations because you can't only talk about dumb bells, barbells
5:49
Speaker 1: and biceps, right, So of course she'd talk about how
5:52
Speaker 1: she's feeling or how that thing went on the weekend,
5:55
Speaker 1: or her kid or her husband, or her sore back
5:58
Speaker 1: or her menopause or perimen pause or all. So you
6:01
Speaker 1: have a multitude of conversations. And this is true for
6:04
Speaker 1: most personal trainers. And I used to have this conversation
6:09
Speaker 1: with them and I called it their shit threshold. You
6:14
Speaker 1: would probably call it the excellent threshold or performance threshold.
6:19
Speaker 1: But I basically ask them to think about and pay
6:23
Speaker 1: attention to how many sessions they could do per day
6:26
Speaker 1: with a client before it went to shit. In other words,
6:32
Speaker 1: how many sessions can you show up for a client
6:35
Speaker 1: or in your case, a patient and be fully present
6:39
Speaker 1: and be the absolute best version of you for that hour?
6:44
Speaker 1: How many times can you repeat that through the day,
6:47
Speaker 1: Because if you're doing twelve sessions a day, you can't say,
6:52
Speaker 1: to number twelve, listen, I'm exhausted and tired and hungry,
6:55
Speaker 1: and you're my twelfth person. So you're going to get
6:58
Speaker 1: a three out of ten even paying ten out of
7:02
Speaker 1: ten fees.
7:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely agree with you. I feel like it's an
7:06
Speaker 2: ethical issue, yes, and I do limit my sessions to
7:12
Speaker 2: an absolute maximum of six per day. Probably five would
7:20
Speaker 2: be maybe the best number, but six. I feel like
7:27
Speaker 2: I'm still doing good work if I do six. But
7:31
Speaker 2: if I was to do beyond that, I don't think
7:33
Speaker 2: that anyone's going to benefit as much, you know, and
7:40
Speaker 2: yeah I do. I do know other people in my
7:44
Speaker 2: field who see more people than that, and that's often
7:50
Speaker 2: financially motivated. But I don't think it's particularly ethical. And
7:57
Speaker 2: if I was seeing someone I would I would, you know,
8:01
Speaker 2: if I'm the second or the one hundred percent?
8:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I think I think that just having that
8:06
Speaker 1: awareness around how much of whatever it is, by the
8:10
Speaker 1: way it like with me, it could be study like,
8:13
Speaker 1: how long can I read this paper? And I'm reading
8:15
Speaker 1: this paper and I'm absorbing as much as I can. Well,
8:19
Speaker 1: the answer is not two hours. Yeah, the answer for
8:23
Speaker 1: me used to be three minutes, and then it prepped
8:26
Speaker 1: up to five, and then it crept up, you know,
8:29
Speaker 1: and now it's I don't know, five years down the track.
8:32
Speaker 1: It's probably if I'm being honest, it's probably twenty minutes,
8:35
Speaker 1: maybe thirty on a good day, you know, brand new
8:38
Speaker 1: brain in the morning. But I think knowing that what
8:42
Speaker 1: is your threshold for anything, how much of a particular
8:45
Speaker 1: thing can you do really well before you might need
8:49
Speaker 1: a break, or you might need to do something else
8:52
Speaker 1: for a little while, or you might need to change
8:55
Speaker 1: the way that you're doing it so that the people
8:58
Speaker 1: that you're doing it for or with, if they're not
9:01
Speaker 1: being disadvantaged because your focus or your skill or your
9:05
Speaker 1: attention or whatever has dropped.
9:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do think you bring up a good
9:10
Speaker 2: point that there are it's about knowing your personal limits,
9:13
Speaker 2: and your personal limits might be different to somebody else's,
9:17
Speaker 2: so yes, maybe you know, some other people might have
9:19
Speaker 2: more stamina and be able to see eight people effectively,
9:23
Speaker 2: whereas I don't think that I could, or you know,
9:25
Speaker 2: even from a day to day perspective, like if you're
9:28
Speaker 2: going through something, you know, like I don't know, something
9:33
Speaker 2: significant in your life, you're not maybe going to be
9:36
Speaker 2: as effective at work, and so maybe then it's up
9:39
Speaker 2: to you to reschedule or you know, like think about
9:42
Speaker 2: reducing the load that day because you know that you're
9:45
Speaker 2: not going to be able to do you know, the
9:48
Speaker 2: work that is expected of you, or that you know
9:50
Speaker 2: the person deserves. So really understanding what your personal limits
9:54
Speaker 2: are and then I think, you know, like putting ethics first,
9:59
Speaker 2: I think is so important. No, I don't think a
10:00
Speaker 2: lot of people think about ethics.
10:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think if you go.
10:05
Speaker 2: From that framework, then you know, then you're going to
10:08
Speaker 2: put yourself in good stay.
10:10
Speaker 1: And I think over the long term, like if you're
10:13
Speaker 1: doing I don't know, twelve shitty sessions a day, or
10:17
Speaker 1: you know, three good sessions, three okay sessions, and then
10:21
Speaker 1: you know you actually do yourself a disadvantage over time,
10:25
Speaker 1: and because that's going to impact on the quality of
10:28
Speaker 1: your work and what people say about you. And you know,
10:32
Speaker 1: it's just that I've got a gig not next week,
10:35
Speaker 1: the week after, and the company that I'm doing it
10:39
Speaker 1: for wanted me to do four hours. Well I'm doing
10:42
Speaker 1: four hours, and I said, because they want to essentially
10:48
Speaker 1: nine to one, you know, with a little break, but
10:53
Speaker 1: nine to one. And I said, how about this, how
10:56
Speaker 1: about we do two hours before lunch and two hours
10:59
Speaker 1: after lunch. And they're like, oh, okay, I go. Can
11:04
Speaker 1: we just because you'll get a better me Like I
11:06
Speaker 1: can do four hours straight, but the last hour you
11:10
Speaker 1: might get seven out of ten me or six out
11:13
Speaker 1: of ten me. But if I can do two hours,
11:16
Speaker 1: I can. I can be flying for two hours and
11:20
Speaker 1: then I don't eat lunch, So I won't eat lunch
11:22
Speaker 1: with them, but I'll go somewhere, chill out, put my
11:24
Speaker 1: feet up, put my head down, listen to some music,
11:27
Speaker 1: relax a bit, go for a walk, suck in some air, recalibrate, regroup,
11:32
Speaker 1: and then start an hour later and I can hit
11:35
Speaker 1: my stride for another two hours, and I just know that.
11:39
Speaker 1: I said to them, look, I can do either, but
11:41
Speaker 1: if you want the best value for your money and
11:44
Speaker 1: the best me, this would be the way to do it.
11:46
Speaker 1: And they're like, great, let's do that. So I think
11:49
Speaker 1: knowing things like that, you know, yeah, and.
11:52
Speaker 2: Then you know they get to make an informed choice.
11:54
Speaker 2: You're managing their expectations. You're being honest, and if they
11:58
Speaker 2: had chosen were actually, we don't have time for that
12:01
Speaker 2: extra hour between. Then you know you've managed their expectations.
12:04
Speaker 2: So they already now help you know what to expect.
12:07
Speaker 2: I'm sure you like seven out of ten still pretty good,
12:10
Speaker 2: So they might have decided like that's good enough. Yeah,
12:13
Speaker 2: but you've been honest. I think that's really important.
12:17
Speaker 1: So I wanted to chat to you today about something
12:19
Speaker 1: that I realized. I deal with with people a fair bit,
12:23
Speaker 1: and I'm going to be honest and go, maybe I
12:26
Speaker 1: understand it slightly better than the average person, maybe not,
12:29
Speaker 1: but I definitely don't understand it as well as you.
12:32
Speaker 1: So I'm being a little bit cheeky and selfish because
12:35
Speaker 1: I need you to help me, to help others help me,
12:39
Speaker 1: but I think it's really Yeah. Yeah, well it's you know,
12:42
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about perfectionism. Yeah, so
12:47
Speaker 1: firstly in your terms, in Layman's terms, not necessarily in
12:52
Speaker 1: clinical terms, but can you just explain to us what
12:56
Speaker 1: it is.
12:58
Speaker 2: I think it's a really subject and I don't think
13:01
Speaker 2: it's super straightforward. I think it's actually complicated to explain
13:04
Speaker 2: because I think it's like a mindset or a world
13:07
Speaker 2: view that influences how we think, yep, and behave, and
13:17
Speaker 2: it kind of involves a few kind of different aspects.
13:20
Speaker 2: I think one is just having unrealistic expectations. Yeah, and
13:29
Speaker 2: that might be like for yourself or for others. But
13:32
Speaker 2: you're if we're talking about perfectionism, well, we can talk
13:35
Speaker 2: about it as high personal standards.
13:39
Speaker 1: Yes, but as you said, maybe hardh but.
13:44
Speaker 2: Realistic, right, So like unnecessary or unattainable standards for like
13:50
Speaker 2: rigid rules of life that involve you, like having to
13:53
Speaker 2: do things that actually aren't particularly realistic, and.
13:57
Speaker 1: If they're unrealistic and unuttinable, then yousoltely as setting yourself
14:01
Speaker 1: up with disappointment and failure.
14:03
Speaker 2: Well exactly, so, I mean one of you know, perfectionism
14:07
Speaker 2: has a lot of negative consequences because, yes, because of
14:12
Speaker 2: that aspect, because standards won't be met. They might be
14:17
Speaker 2: met sometimes, but most of the time they won't because
14:20
Speaker 2: they're unrealistic in the first place. And so that leads
14:24
Speaker 2: to a lot of harsh, you know, self criticism, and
14:32
Speaker 2: it can have an impact on your mental health and
14:37
Speaker 2: your sense of self worth and how you relate to
14:40
Speaker 2: other people and you know, the work that you do,
14:44
Speaker 2: and it can like alter your behavior quite a bit.
14:50
Speaker 2: Like if you're afraid of making mistakes or see success
14:58
Speaker 2: and failure as kind of this binary, dichotomous concept, then
15:04
Speaker 2: you're probably not going to do a lot of things
15:08
Speaker 2: that could lead to potential failure or mistakes.
15:12
Speaker 1: So why do you think, why do you start to interrupt?
15:16
Speaker 1: Why do you think that some of us? I don't
15:19
Speaker 1: think I'm a perfectionist, but I'm pretty hard on myself,
15:23
Speaker 1: and I you know, I can when I have this
15:29
Speaker 1: dumb habit. I think men definitely do this more than
15:33
Speaker 1: women do. But I could be wrong, but I quantify things.
15:37
Speaker 1: And so Melissa will go, I'll do a gig and
15:40
Speaker 1: on the way home, Melissa, who runs my life, everybody
15:43
Speaker 1: who's my business partner. She'll bring me and she go,
15:46
Speaker 1: how did it go? And she'd been asked me that
15:49
Speaker 1: for fifteen year, fourteen years? Right, So if I go
15:52
Speaker 1: it was a seven, it was a nine, it was
15:53
Speaker 1: a six, she knows what it means, right, And I
15:59
Speaker 1: I don't like to give myself kind of too much
16:04
Speaker 1: of a pump up or too many platitudes because I
16:08
Speaker 1: don't know. I think subconsciously, maybe I'll drop my if
16:11
Speaker 1: I go, oh, yeah, that was a nine and a half,
16:13
Speaker 1: then I'm like, oh, I can't get any better. Well
16:15
Speaker 1: I just peaked, so it's all down ill. I don't know.
16:17
Speaker 1: But I'm a hard task master on me, but not
16:21
Speaker 1: so much on others. I mean, if that makes.
16:25
Speaker 2: Sense, Yeah it does. I think I might be similar.
16:29
Speaker 2: I think my expectations for myself are more than what
16:34
Speaker 2: they are of other people. I think sometimes, like if you,
16:39
Speaker 2: I mean, there are probably lots of reasons for that.
16:43
Speaker 2: One aspect of perfectionism is this kind of over reliance
16:47
Speaker 2: on achievement for self worth.
16:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yes, that is so good. Yes yeah. So
16:55
Speaker 1: then we get our sense of value and self worth
16:57
Speaker 1: and identity from what we do and create.
17:01
Speaker 2: Exactly, and if we're not achieving to the standard that
17:06
Speaker 2: we are expecting of ourselves. Yes, then we feel unworthy
17:13
Speaker 2: and we feel not good enough. We start fearing other
17:19
Speaker 2: people's judgment as well. And this is the interesting thing
17:23
Speaker 2: about perfectionism is that it's it's perpetuated. It's not just
17:29
Speaker 2: perpetuated by the person like we're a perfectionist will perpetuate
17:33
Speaker 2: it by their own kind of unhealthy mind habits and
17:36
Speaker 2: beliefs and rigid rules for life that come from you
17:40
Speaker 2: know what, you know so many different places, but you know,
17:43
Speaker 2: often they're significant caregivers and experiences in life and all
17:48
Speaker 2: and models and all of that sort of stuff. But
17:51
Speaker 2: it's also often reinforced in society. Right, So if you
17:56
Speaker 2: are achieving, yeah it, and you do well, you're going
18:02
Speaker 2: to get a lot of reinforcement for that, a lot
18:04
Speaker 2: of praise, and that's going to make you feel more
18:08
Speaker 2: worthy as a person. When what we really want, as
18:12
Speaker 2: like a person or a human on this earth is
18:16
Speaker 2: to not view achievement or productivity as your metric for worthiness.
18:27
Speaker 1: It's so hard, though, right, because what you say is true,
18:34
Speaker 1: I agree, But also we are unintentionally taught that, you know,
18:42
Speaker 1: success is about all those external things, what you look like,
18:46
Speaker 1: what you have earn owned do, what people think you
18:48
Speaker 1: your brand, your likes, your comments. How many listeners have
18:52
Speaker 1: you got to your show, Craig, How many people listen
18:55
Speaker 1: to your show? Not like, oh what have you learned
18:59
Speaker 1: doing a podcast? Still it's like how many people listen?
19:02
Speaker 1: How manys do you have? How much money do you make?
19:04
Speaker 1: Like everyone cares about all the fucking metrics. I'm like,
19:08
Speaker 1: including you. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, that is true. But
19:13
Speaker 1: I mean, like when I'm doing it, like right now,
19:16
Speaker 1: I'm just having a conversation. I'm not at all thinking
19:19
Speaker 1: about any of that stuff. I'm like just in the present,
19:23
Speaker 1: having an interesting conversation. But yeah, but we do, we
19:27
Speaker 1: do kind of, I guess, get our sense of self
19:31
Speaker 1: worth and me included, especially when I was younger, from
19:35
Speaker 1: all the stuff that people can see and judge. Yeah.
19:39
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think like one of the helpful things
19:43
Speaker 2: to do is to understand what your rules for life are,
19:54
Speaker 2: what your thoughts and beliefs are and where they come from, yeah,
20:02
Speaker 2: and how they're actually manifesting now, Like, what are the
20:07
Speaker 2: thoughts and thought patterns that you kind of live your
20:09
Speaker 2: life by? What are the underlying beliefs that you have
20:13
Speaker 2: about yourself and other people in the world, and then
20:18
Speaker 2: be open to challenging all of that. Like you just said,
20:23
Speaker 2: like society has this definition of success. It's based on
20:27
Speaker 2: external factors like achievement and money and all of that
20:31
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And it's like, well, that might be true,
20:35
Speaker 2: but that doesn't have to be your truth. What's your
20:39
Speaker 2: definition of success? Like what is the consequence of buying
20:43
Speaker 2: into this other definition? You know, the definition of your
20:47
Speaker 2: mother and father are the definition of you know, your teacher,
20:52
Speaker 2: or the definition of society in general. Like it, these
20:57
Speaker 2: are all just constructs and they don't don't need to
21:00
Speaker 2: be believed. They can be challenged and you can have
21:05
Speaker 2: your own personal you know, beliefs and thoughts and ideas
21:12
Speaker 2: about what success is. And I think what's important to you?
21:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's like putting putting things under
21:21
Speaker 1: the microscope, like these accepted kind of paradigms and ideas
21:26
Speaker 1: where we go our success is and then go, who
21:30
Speaker 1: do I know that successful in inverted commas and also miserable?
21:34
Speaker 2: Go, well, then they're not right exactly.
21:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, or successful in inverted commas by whatever standards. But
21:41
Speaker 1: also and I don't mean there's no judgment, but just
21:45
Speaker 1: as an observation, also medicative for anxiety or depression of sleeplessness.
21:48
Speaker 1: But great house, great car, lots of money. And then
21:51
Speaker 1: you go, so maybe, you know, if we're generally I
21:56
Speaker 1: think we would correlate you know, happiness and content and
22:00
Speaker 1: enjoy with success. Then you go, well, maybe on a
22:04
Speaker 1: level they've got it, but as an experience, like from
22:07
Speaker 1: the outside looking insuccessful, but the inside out experience not
22:12
Speaker 1: so much, you know, And yeah.
22:14
Speaker 2: That might be their metric for success, but it doesn't
22:16
Speaker 2: have to be yours.
22:17
Speaker 1: Correct.
22:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean I think that that's part of
22:20
Speaker 2: the work that I do with a lot of my
22:22
Speaker 2: clients is just helping them understand what their mind habits are,
22:26
Speaker 2: Like what are the thoughts and thought patterns and beliefs
22:29
Speaker 2: that you have that are just automatic, like not even conscious.
22:33
Speaker 2: Sometimes yes, that you just decided to believe, but you
22:39
Speaker 2: didn't decide, actually you just believe. Yeah, and you know,
22:44
Speaker 2: like do you still want to believe those things?
22:47
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah. I've been writing down all these words which
22:50
Speaker 1: I think relate to or can relate to perfectionism. I'm
22:54
Speaker 1: going to throw them all out at once and then
22:56
Speaker 1: you go wherever you want to go. But I've written
22:59
Speaker 1: and you've mentioned mine, but anxiety, So perfectionism and anxiety,
23:04
Speaker 1: self loathing, fear, O c D, question mark, identity, overthinking.
23:13
Speaker 1: I feel like all of those things can intersect and
23:17
Speaker 1: collide a little bit.
23:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, burnout, imposter syndrome. Like there's so many fit
23:22
Speaker 2: eating disorders. Yes, there are a lot of things related
23:27
Speaker 2: to that perfectionistic mindset, and that can be negative consequences.
23:34
Speaker 2: You said OCD as well. It's it's like checking behavior
23:39
Speaker 2: can be a compulsion for people who are perfectionists. Yes,
23:48
Speaker 2: like checking over, Like if you're a perfectionist with school
23:51
Speaker 2: or work, for instance, and you know you like read
23:54
Speaker 2: over and over and over to make sure like every
23:56
Speaker 2: T is crossed, every you know I is dotted, And
24:01
Speaker 2: it can it can be an aspect of OCD or
24:05
Speaker 2: just like a symptom that's related to that disorder. But yes,
24:11
Speaker 2: it absolutely has a number of negative consequences. I think
24:16
Speaker 2: it's also important to not be black and white about
24:19
Speaker 2: perfectionism as well, and to maybe this might be challenging
24:24
Speaker 2: for some people to think about, but what are the
24:29
Speaker 2: functional aspects? For instance, So.
24:35
Speaker 1: Do you mean light the pros.
24:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, okay, so in like the one I'm thinking about, Like,
24:42
Speaker 2: I don't obviously, as a global mindset, I don't think
24:45
Speaker 2: perfectionism is as pros. However, there might be certain jobs,
24:55
Speaker 2: for instance, require a level of perfectionism that are important
25:03
Speaker 2: or positive. For instance, if you're a surgeon, or if you're.
25:12
Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking about that.
25:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so if you're you know, like if you
25:18
Speaker 2: think about being a chef too, like you're cooking and
25:23
Speaker 2: mistakes that you make with food could cause a lot
25:26
Speaker 2: of health problems for people, right or like you don't know,
25:32
Speaker 2: I don't know when this is coming out, but the
25:34
Speaker 2: F one Grand Prix is on right now if you're
25:38
Speaker 2: I've just watched the whole season seven because I'm not
25:41
Speaker 2: even into car racing, but it's on a psychological level,
25:44
Speaker 2: it's really really good. But if you're an F one driver,
25:50
Speaker 2: but you have to have perfectionistic tendencies to be successful, Yes,
25:56
Speaker 2: if you're an elite athlete, you have to have this
25:58
Speaker 2: kind of striving for perfection and this attention to detail
26:03
Speaker 2: and discipline and high quality work and focus, like all
26:07
Speaker 2: of those kinds of positions required that, right.
26:12
Speaker 1: So this is interesting, Yeah, I because you made really
26:17
Speaker 1: higher rousal but low anxiety.
26:20
Speaker 2: Right. So the thing with perfectionism is that normally what
26:23
Speaker 2: happens is you're constantly fearful and anxious of making mistakes
26:30
Speaker 2: and not being perfect, which gets in the way of
26:33
Speaker 2: you doing a good job. So you don't want to
26:36
Speaker 2: be perfectionistic in that sense. You want to strive to
26:42
Speaker 2: be potentially as perfect as possible, but have that balanced
26:48
Speaker 2: out with a reality acceptance and also like self compassion,
26:54
Speaker 2: because we are all human and all we can do
26:57
Speaker 2: is strive for that, but we know that we can't
26:59
Speaker 2: achieve perfection, we can't be perfect all the time. So yeah,
27:03
Speaker 2: you're absolutely right. I think it's it's that's what I'm saying.
27:06
Speaker 2: It's like a complicated concept, I think, more complex complex,
27:11
Speaker 2: And maybe how it's often presented as this like bad thing, Well,
27:15
Speaker 2: there are aspects of it that mostly it is. Mostly
27:18
Speaker 2: it's very unhelpful. But you can take aspects of it
27:23
Speaker 2: and make it functional without taking the whole, you know,
27:28
Speaker 2: the whole shebang where you know it's unrealistic and unhelpful
27:32
Speaker 2: and stressful and anxiety provoking and all of those things.
27:37
Speaker 1: If one is a really interesting sport because it's like
27:43
Speaker 1: you need incredible you know, obviously reaction time, spicial awareness, kadia,
27:51
Speaker 1: vascular fitness, strength, like I need incredibly strong necks because
27:55
Speaker 1: of the j for like mind blowing cognitive skill, focus, attention,
28:02
Speaker 1: and like I said, arousal. But yeah, without without the
28:07
Speaker 1: potentially associated anxiety. But then also it lasts for like
28:12
Speaker 1: forty minutes. It's not like it's a thirty or sixty
28:15
Speaker 1: second thing. Like they've almost got to be at a
28:19
Speaker 1: like a lot of things where you've got to be
28:21
Speaker 1: at one hundred percent very short, you know, like a
28:25
Speaker 1: sprint or something like that. But there's no in F one.
28:32
Speaker 1: Like even a sport like tennis, which requires speed and
28:35
Speaker 1: power and focus, we have you have time off between sets,
28:39
Speaker 1: as you know because you're a tennis fan, or even
28:41
Speaker 1: in Australian rules football. Well, the ball's up the other
28:44
Speaker 1: end of the ground and I'm standing with my hands
28:46
Speaker 1: on my hips. I don't need to do it. But
28:48
Speaker 1: in F one, every second of those forty or so
28:52
Speaker 1: minutes that they're racing, Yes, it's got to be completely
28:57
Speaker 1: somewhere in the ballpark of perfection.
29:01
Speaker 2: Yes, and it's dangerous to not be yes. And also
29:05
Speaker 2: there's so much psychological pressure just based on the fact
29:08
Speaker 2: that there's only twenty people in the world who get
29:11
Speaker 2: to do it, So there's just there's no job security
29:15
Speaker 2: at all. There really isn't. Like literally like if you
29:18
Speaker 2: see I mean, I don't know if you've seen the show,
29:20
Speaker 2: but like if you see them interviewed, you just see
29:23
Speaker 2: like they might not say it out loud, but the
29:25
Speaker 2: stress behind their eyes. Yeah, it's the anxieties that it's real,
29:31
Speaker 2: and it's like they have to deal with that sense
29:33
Speaker 2: of pressure constantly, not just when they're driving all the time.
29:39
Speaker 1: You think Daniel Riccatti is genuinely that lied back. He
29:43
Speaker 1: seems to be.
29:47
Speaker 2: Look, I think there's more to him. There's a lot
29:51
Speaker 2: of complexity. And he said in this most recent series,
29:57
Speaker 2: and I'm sorry this is a spoiler for people, but
30:00
Speaker 2: that you know he got to a stage where he
30:03
Speaker 2: wasn't sure if it was worth taking the risk that
30:08
Speaker 2: you need to take in order to be the best,
30:11
Speaker 2: and you know that's a level of stress and anxiety.
30:15
Speaker 2: Then that's sometimes I think I think potentially is adaptive, right.
30:21
Speaker 2: I think as you get older and you have more experiences,
30:28
Speaker 2: you are more risk averse. Yeah, but I think that
30:34
Speaker 2: might be a natural condition of aging.
30:39
Speaker 1: And then or less testosterone in the case of a blog.
30:43
Speaker 2: Yeah maybe. But also I think that your priorities change,
30:48
Speaker 2: you know, like it's not just about I'll do anything
30:52
Speaker 2: to win and I don't care what I'm risking, and
30:55
Speaker 2: you know how it affects anything else in my life.
30:57
Speaker 2: It's not that, right, which a lot you know, a
31:00
Speaker 2: lot of the young men who start enough one that's
31:02
Speaker 2: that's it, Like, that's the attitude and that's probably what
31:05
Speaker 2: his was too at the beginning. But when you get
31:08
Speaker 2: older and you have a fuller life and you've got
31:09
Speaker 2: other priorities and you might have you know, family and children,
31:13
Speaker 2: and you know, there's other things that come into play,
31:16
Speaker 2: then yeah, you're thinking differently and that's going to impact
31:21
Speaker 2: you know, probably a range of things. It's probably why,
31:24
Speaker 2: you know, one of the reasons why it's more of
31:25
Speaker 2: a young man's.
31:28
Speaker 1: Yes, you know, don't tell Lewis Hamilton that though.
31:33
Speaker 2: There's always exceptions.
31:36
Speaker 1: I feel a little bit sometimes like perfectionism is the
31:41
Speaker 1: symptom and fear is the driver. It's like the reason
31:48
Speaker 1: the manifestation of you know, perfectionism is driven by fear
31:54
Speaker 1: of something, fear of failure, fear of embarrassment, fear of
31:58
Speaker 1: not being accepted, of not being pretty enough, or lean enough,
32:02
Speaker 1: or rich enough, or successful enough. I feel like fear
32:06
Speaker 1: is a big component of it sometimes at least.
32:09
Speaker 2: Oh definitely, I think that if you if you think
32:14
Speaker 2: about family of origin, and I mean it's definitely has
32:19
Speaker 2: a significant impact on whether people develop perfectionistic tendencies. It's
32:24
Speaker 2: like how they've grown up, what they've been around, Like,
32:30
Speaker 2: it's not uncommon if you grow up in are in
32:35
Speaker 2: and around people who are demanding or punitive, and that
32:43
Speaker 2: might not be in every aspect of life, it might
32:45
Speaker 2: be in one, Like we can be perfectionistic about one
32:48
Speaker 2: aspect of our life too. It doesn't have to be
32:50
Speaker 2: every aspect correct so or And then you know, if
32:55
Speaker 2: you grow up in a family who they don't tolerate
33:04
Speaker 2: expressions of vulnerability or disappointment, and mistakes aren't couched as
33:17
Speaker 2: learning experiences, there are things to be ashamed of and
33:21
Speaker 2: punished for, then of course you're going to grow up
33:26
Speaker 2: being afraid of showing any weakness or vulnerability. And that
33:32
Speaker 2: again is like that fear perpetuates the perfectionistic tendencies, and
33:41
Speaker 2: then anytime you're doing well and you get reinforced for that,
33:46
Speaker 2: that reinforces the perfectionistic tendencies as well.
33:49
Speaker 1: So should we treat the fear or should we treat
33:52
Speaker 1: the perfectionism? Or am I thinking about it incorrectly?
33:58
Speaker 2: Well, they are very like your thoughts are linked to
34:02
Speaker 2: your feelings and behaviors, so I don't think yes, you
34:05
Speaker 2: can actually target each You know you can target feelings,
34:08
Speaker 2: you can target thoughts, you can target behaviors, but you
34:11
Speaker 2: also recognize that they're all connected. So you target one,
34:14
Speaker 2: it's going to impact the other the other aspects. So yes,
34:19
Speaker 2: I think that help A helpful way of dealing with
34:23
Speaker 2: perfectionism is like a cognitive behavioral therapist would say, yes,
34:29
Speaker 2: most likely target thoughts first. You target the thoughts and
34:32
Speaker 2: the beliefs that will impact feelings and behaviors. But sometimes
34:39
Speaker 2: if distress is too high, then you can't effectively target thoughts.
34:47
Speaker 2: Your brain's not going to be working particularly well enough
34:49
Speaker 2: to do that in an effective efficient way, So you
34:52
Speaker 2: would target feelings. Then how do I reduce the level
34:56
Speaker 2: of fear and anxiety in this person so that they
34:58
Speaker 2: are able to think more clearly and challenge and modify
35:03
Speaker 2: their thoughts more clearly. So, or you could say target
35:09
Speaker 2: behaviors and you know, doing things like exposure therapy or
35:14
Speaker 2: behavioral experiments like for instance, with a perfectionistic person, you
35:19
Speaker 2: might say, go out and make mistakes on purpose, like
35:24
Speaker 2: to choose an activity. You know, we'd be very specific
35:27
Speaker 2: about it, like what are some things that you do.
35:30
Speaker 2: Let's say play tennis, and you know I have to
35:33
Speaker 2: win every point, okay, Well I want you to like
35:36
Speaker 2: make an error on purpose, like I want you to
35:39
Speaker 2: lose on purpose or whatever whatever the experiment is, so
35:43
Speaker 2: that they can learn, yes, to tolerate the distress of that,
35:49
Speaker 2: and that it is possible, and that also it's not
35:52
Speaker 2: really a measure of their self worth, Like people are
35:56
Speaker 2: still going to be accepting of you even if you
35:59
Speaker 2: don't win match, for instance.
36:01
Speaker 1: And also understanding that if if their approval and acceptance
36:07
Speaker 1: and love and whatever is contingent upon me achieving some metric,
36:12
Speaker 1: well that's not anyway.
36:14
Speaker 2: Right exactly. So that's a really good learning thing learning
36:17
Speaker 2: aspect as well. So I think like no matter where
36:19
Speaker 2: you decide to target, yeah, you're going to impact the
36:25
Speaker 2: other areas and I and you know, for me, when
36:28
Speaker 2: I'm seeing someone who who is perfectionistic or has fear
36:33
Speaker 2: and anxiety is like a main component of their issue,
36:38
Speaker 2: then it's really like knowing that person and where they
36:41
Speaker 2: might have the most success to start with, Like where
36:46
Speaker 2: where were we going to have the most impact if we
36:48
Speaker 2: target feelings, thoughts, or behaviors.
36:52
Speaker 1: First, So as we wind up and I know there's
36:55
Speaker 1: no single starting point, like there's no three step plan
36:58
Speaker 1: for virtually anything. But for someone who's listening and going,
37:03
Speaker 1: that all makes sense. But I'm a perfectionist and it's
37:06
Speaker 1: making my life worse, not better. What might what might
37:11
Speaker 1: I say a starting point be not necessarily a particular strategy,
37:16
Speaker 1: but just where would we start to address this?
37:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the first thing, like you said, was
37:23
Speaker 2: just just being aware that it's a problem is really
37:26
Speaker 2: a step in the right direction. So like, well done.
37:31
Speaker 2: If that's where you're at and you're like, this is
37:33
Speaker 2: this is I'm noticing this in myself and I'm seeing
37:35
Speaker 2: the negative consequences and I'm aware of it. Great, that's great.
37:39
Speaker 2: First step. The second thing is understand what the function
37:45
Speaker 2: of it is for you? Like, what is what I
37:52
Speaker 2: mean by that is, like we don't normally do things
37:57
Speaker 2: if there aren't any benefits to it, right, So they
38:00
Speaker 2: might not be healthy benefits, but they're still benefits, right,
38:06
Speaker 2: So what are you getting from thinking and behaving in
38:11
Speaker 2: that way? What are the positive consequences for you? And
38:15
Speaker 2: then what are the negative consequences? That again, that raises
38:21
Speaker 2: your level of awareness of what it is for you personally.
38:28
Speaker 2: And I think the next thing would be to maybe
38:34
Speaker 2: write down some of your perfectionistic thoughts, like what are
38:39
Speaker 2: your rules for life that are you know, influencing your
38:43
Speaker 2: perfection perfectionistic behaviors like that you should be perfect or
38:48
Speaker 2: else or success means a D and C, or you know,
38:54
Speaker 2: whatever they might be, and then have a go. But
39:00
Speaker 2: like understanding where those beliefs came from? Yeah, who you
39:06
Speaker 2: that weren't born with them? We all learned. Yeah, we're
39:09
Speaker 2: all brainwashed right in somewhere, you know, from our experiences
39:13
Speaker 2: and influences. So where do they come from? How is it? Well,
39:18
Speaker 2: we've talked about how is it impacting you the positive
39:20
Speaker 2: and negative consequences? And what can I do to adjust
39:25
Speaker 2: these thoughts and beliefs to make them more reasonable, realistic, flexible, balanced, adaptive,
39:35
Speaker 2: so that I reduce the negative consequences and increase the
39:39
Speaker 2: positive consequences.
39:41
Speaker 1: I think what's interesting too, is like some of us,
39:44
Speaker 1: well I think probably all of us at some stage
39:46
Speaker 1: have maybe it's not absolute perfectionism, but we have these
39:51
Speaker 1: underlying all be happy when stories, and then the when
39:55
Speaker 1: arrives and we're like, oh, I'm not happy, Like if
39:59
Speaker 1: i'd do this or change that or own that or
40:01
Speaker 1: earn that or look like that or achieve that, I'll
40:04
Speaker 1: be happy. And then we get we get to the
40:07
Speaker 1: top of that mountain and we're like, hmm, I don't
40:10
Speaker 1: feel like I thought I would feel whatever I thought
40:13
Speaker 1: was going to happen inside when I did that thing,
40:16
Speaker 1: outside that external thing, I thought there'd be a corresponding
40:19
Speaker 1: internal thing which would be very positive. And so I
40:23
Speaker 1: must be on the wrong mountain or you know. It's like,
40:26
Speaker 1: no matter where we are, it's not where we want
40:30
Speaker 1: to be. We keep shifting the goalposts.
40:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that that's a really good point.
40:36
Speaker 2: I think that because perfectionism is so tied to self worth,
40:41
Speaker 2: and so what you're actually doing is you're setting these
40:44
Speaker 2: goals so that you feel worthy, and then you realize
40:47
Speaker 2: that that isn't making you feel more worthy. So one
40:51
Speaker 2: of the things that you can also do is define
40:55
Speaker 2: what that is, what is self worth to you and
40:59
Speaker 2: challenge that or like even like I've had people do
41:02
Speaker 2: exercises where I say, well, you know, like you're you're
41:09
Speaker 2: wanting to be this whatever self worth worthy successful person.
41:15
Speaker 2: Think about somebody in your life that's like that, or
41:18
Speaker 2: you know, it could be someone who you don't know
41:20
Speaker 2: what are their characteristics.
41:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that can.
41:25
Speaker 2: Be really enlightening for people because I think sometimes you
41:28
Speaker 2: get people will get stuck on a goal, like a
41:30
Speaker 2: weight for instance, a weight goal I have to look
41:32
Speaker 2: a certain way, but when they actually describe somebody they
41:37
Speaker 2: think has a lot of confidence and self worth, there's
41:40
Speaker 2: nothing about weight on that list, Like it's not about that.
41:44
Speaker 2: It's actually about how do I accept myself fully? You know,
41:51
Speaker 2: no matter what. That's a that's confidence.
41:54
Speaker 1: And I think I don't know if it's just because
41:56
Speaker 1: I'm all but like being comfortable going I guess what,
41:59
Speaker 1: I'm not the best to this and that's okay, Yeah
42:02
Speaker 1: I fucked that up. That's okay. I'm not as strong
42:05
Speaker 1: as I used to be, that's okay. I don't look
42:08
Speaker 1: like I used to look that's okay, Like it's all okay.
42:12
Speaker 1: It's it's like I'm not saying we're giving up or
42:15
Speaker 1: we're not trying. But oh I did this thing and
42:19
Speaker 1: I got it wrong. Okay, cool, that's all right. Not
42:22
Speaker 1: like I'm an idiot. I'm a fucking no, I just
42:24
Speaker 1: got it wrong. Did you want to get it wrong? No?
42:26
Speaker 1: I didn't. Did you try to get it wrong? No,
42:27
Speaker 1: but you got it wrong. Yeah. Cool. So that means
42:30
Speaker 1: you're human. That's a pretty big club. You're part of
42:33
Speaker 1: that club. It's okay, like fucking up, okay, not knowing
42:39
Speaker 1: things okay, you know, slipping up and being you know,
42:44
Speaker 1: doctor Lilly and getting shitty in the car okay, you know,
42:48
Speaker 1: snapping at the kids every now and then. Not optimal,
42:51
Speaker 1: but every now and then as long as there's no
42:53
Speaker 1: damage done, okay. You know. It's like, oh, like, we
42:57
Speaker 1: have these ridiculous standards that are essentially unachievable, and in
43:02
Speaker 1: that pursuing the unachievable one, we never get there. So
43:05
Speaker 1: that's frustrating. But two, we literally make an emotional and
43:09
Speaker 1: psychological prison for ourselves because we're perpetually not fulfilled and unhappy.
43:15
Speaker 1: Because the goal that we've set is literally not within
43:18
Speaker 1: our grasp.
43:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's we're very change focused humans, like, yeah,
43:27
Speaker 2: I want to be better, do better, feel better, Like
43:29
Speaker 2: we're always in that. Most of us are always in
43:33
Speaker 2: that mode rather than balancing that. I'm not saying don't
43:39
Speaker 2: do those things, like those are adaptive in their own way,
43:41
Speaker 2: but if you're always there and you're never in. But
43:45
Speaker 2: I'm accepting myself fully also, like I can accept myself
43:48
Speaker 2: fully as I am today, and I can also know
43:53
Speaker 2: that I can do better and feel better and be better.
43:57
Speaker 2: But I can do both at the same time. It
43:59
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be either or Yeah, and it doesn't
44:03
Speaker 2: have to be like punitive. You know, if I don't
44:08
Speaker 2: do my best today, that doesn't mean that I'm bad
44:11
Speaker 2: or wrong or people will hate me or judge me,
44:15
Speaker 2: or or even if they do, that's not necessarily a
44:19
Speaker 2: reflection on you. You know, that's that's something they might
44:24
Speaker 2: need to work on, not not you. So yeah, I
44:29
Speaker 2: think the balance between acceptance and change is.
44:31
Speaker 1: Really important always in lightning, Doc, thank you for packing
44:36
Speaker 1: that with us. We love that you're a regular now
44:40
Speaker 1: and I'm getting you on in between your regular gigs,
44:43
Speaker 1: which is very your, very accommodating, so thank you.
44:47
Speaker 2: You're very welcome.
44:48
Speaker 1: How do people find you and follow you and learn
44:51
Speaker 1: more about you?
44:53
Speaker 2: Websites A good spot doctor lilliananjad dot com. I've got
44:58
Speaker 2: some if you go to stuff you there's a lot
45:00
Speaker 2: of little free resources for you and that will help
45:06
Speaker 2: with stress and anxiety and sleep and yeah.
45:10
Speaker 1: Perfect, perfect, Well, thank you again. We love you being
45:13
Speaker 1: part of you project team. You're great at it. People
45:15
Speaker 1: love you. We get only good feedback.
45:18
Speaker 2: That's nice.
45:19
Speaker 1: We'll say yeah, see ya bye,