Latest / Veteran Wellness Podcast / The Delta Force Legend Who Helped Build the Unit | Mike Vining

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The Delta Force Legend Who Helped Build the Unit | Mike Vining · Veteran Wellness Podcast

• ERIK LAWRENCE: Sergeant Major, how are you this morning? Mike Vining: Thanks, Eric. I'm doing good. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I you know, the the meme from hell, you know, you're all over the place on that. We'll get into that later, but you became one of the most famous guys in the military, just from a meme. Mike Vining: I know I I don't understand it. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I'm sure it's a lot to take in, but and you're constantly amused, you know. You're you're up there at the Chuck Norris level for for memes, I think. Mike Vining: Yeah, it it's to me it's it's actually p what would you call it? You know, it it endu endearment, you know. you know it's just I think it's gives people joy to do it. I and the memes are really creative. they're not meant to be harmful. and they just get pleasure out of it and I think some of are pretty funny. ERIK LAWRENCE: I remember when I was young I was watching this documentary, it was it was called Delta Force, it had Chuck Norris in there. Was he in the same class you were? Was he first class or second class? Mike Vining: Chuck Norris. Chuck Chuck Norris actually contacted the unit and wanted to be like the star that's associated with the unit, just like you know, we had John Wayne and Martha Ray you know, that associated with the the Special Forces Green Beret. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: and Beckwith flat just ignored him. ERIK LAWRENCE: that's criminal. But Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah, he had his ways, I guess, from what I hear, so you you weren't second guessing him. Mike Vining: Yeah, yeah. He was Colonel Beckwith was a unique person. yeah, I always tell people, actually he was the best person for the right at the right moment to start up such a unit as Delta. I mean he ruffled a lot of people's feathers. but you know, he had a lot of supporters. and so, yeah, he was the right person at the right time. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, that's amazing, amazing history to lived through and be able to to ponder and and put out the truth 'cause there's so many rumors about everything out there. So but your military s service started in Vietnam. You know, I was Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: born when your picture was taken of you in Vietnam. Mike Vining: Yeah. yeah, that would have been nineteen seventy. yeah, it was that's what I wanted to do, you know. I just found paperwork the other day where my parents actually signed for me to join the military. I was seventeen years old when I joined the military, two weeks out of high school. And and my goal was that eventually I'd go over to Vietnam. and see what everything was all about because, you know, it was on the news every night. and there was lots of protests, you know, people supporting the war, people against the war. It was very divisive. things haven't changed today. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: but yeah, so I wanted to go to see it and so But I volunteered for EOD, explosive ordnance disposal, but I couldn't enlist for it. It wasn't an enlistment option. So I went my recruiter told me to go into ammunition renovation and the maintenance of ammunition. that's not a military specialty anymore. Civilians do that. And then ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm. Mike Vining: from there volunteer for EOD, which I did. And then you then we had an unwritten rule in EOD that you couldn't go right from EOD. School to Vietnam. You needed at least a year doing stateside EOD work before you went to Vietnam. And so I went to tech escort, Edgewood Arsenal. And at tech escort, I put my paperwork in three times for Vietnam. My commander, Colonel Dickey, disapproved him, except for the third time. He said he gave me he actually gave me a choice, my commander, Colonel Dickey. He says, you can go to Rocky Mountain Arsenal. I'll PCS you to Rocky Mountain Arsenal, the chemical detachment that's out there in Denver, which I had done two trips out there already, or it y I can, you know, sign this paper to go to Vietnam. I had a choice between Denver, Colorado, and Vietnam, and I took Vietnam. ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha Curiosity killed the cat, you know, so Mike Vining: Yeah. Well here I am today in Colorado. ERIK LAWRENCE: see you got there. It's just the PCS took a while, you know. Mike Vining: Yeah. Yeah. so yeah, the the tour in Vietnam was a a growth period for me. You know, I was nineteen years old by this time and turned twenty in Vietnam. And I I just I learned so much in one year in ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Mike Vining: Vietnam You know, basically I was where I grew up was that year in Vietnam. I had some great leaders, some great senior NCOs, that were like mentors to me. had one in particular, Master Sergeant Mike Land. He later made s sergeant major. And I went on a lot of EOD incidents with him. He t he taught me a lot about EOD. just also a lot about leadership too. so I had other good senior NCOs that I I learned from. And ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, of the EOD guys I know, it's just they've been able to compartmentalize that where you should be scared to do your job, but that is your job. And it's a technical Mike Vining: Yeah, that is it. ERIK LAWRENCE: function. Mike Vining: Right. I think though the school gives us a l you know, we have a lot of knowledge on the different things that we're dealing with. The school is very good at that. today, EOD school, basically it's almost a year long school when you do everything you have to do, you know. You have the you know the basic EOD s school, which is at Eglin. I forget how many months that is, but it's almost half of a year. and then you have you know your s different service connected EOD training too. things that you deal with more than maybe the Navy deals with. They get more you know into underwater ordinance like torpedoes and stuff. sea mines and stuff like that. So it's a you know it's a big learning curve. Still a high washout rate today. yeah, ERIK LAWRENCE: bad. Yeah, stress too. Yeah. Mike Vining: I think EOD School is one of the hardest academic schools in the military. and I always believed that it was the hardest academic school. It's not hard physically and stuff like that, but you know, it's you they do put you under a lot of stress in the school, you know, with the tet the all the different exercise and testing that you have to do, and the things that you gotta learn, you know. We learn everything from from a Civil War cannonball up to nuclear weapons, you know, and we learn ERIK LAWRENCE: Wow. Mike Vining: about chemical and biological warfare. it's it's a lot to learn. And it starts out with basic science, you know. first class is applied physical principles and you just b you know, you learn the science. You learn about explosives and sp explosive fillers and disposal of different explosives and yeah it's it's it's a r but that helps you in the field. You know, ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Mike Vining: when you when you look at a fuse, you know, a bomb fuse, you can actually in your mind see it internally. You know, the mechanism ERIK LAWRENCE: Wow. Mike Vining: internally and the condition. S and because you can take it apart in your mind. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I've I've had to do it a couple of times, very uneducated, but as a breacher, I'm reversing it. I had an interpreter one day bring a suicide vest in in an aphys bag. And I'm like, there's nine volts, you know, so I'm licking the nine volts to get them out of the bag and ask him to leave the office with all the principals in the in the base. Mike Vining: yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: And one day I walked up to My house was next to the embassy in Kabul there and there's a there's a chunk of Symtex with a US time pencil stuck in it. Once again in an aphys bag. So I'm like, pull time pencil out, set down, call embassy. You know, it's just like I I think we should have had a little bit of reverse engineering in group as as as a breacher or something to where you could a rudimentary go, Yeah, I there's no one to call. There's no EOD team to call and I've gotta deal with this. So, Mike Vining: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: you know. Not like I I ever wanted to be an A D tech, but situations seem to put you where you need to be sometimes. But I Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: wouldn't wanna do it as a job, so I'm I'm glad you and and the rest do. The attention to detail is massive and Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: it Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, you know, as we were talking pre, I know a a lot of your old friends there from back when you started the unit. Mike Vining: Yes. ERIK LAWRENCE: just from the cast of characters I know, it would have had to have been amazing to be there and forming it, you know, from scratch, essentially. I mean Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: that just had to be exciting. Mike Vining: It it I think it was. i it was very exciting, forming up a new unit, with a with special purposes, special missions, And the biggest thing, you know, was training for POW rescue type missions or hostage rescue type missions. there was a lot of hijacking, aircraft hijacking going on. all different kinds of things were going on. So, there was a need for a specialized unit to to do that, so we the at the unit we were allowed to, really spend most of our time training, And half a day would be out at the firing range shooting and then the other half of the day would be doing something else. and so yeah, it was yeah, it was exciting. Th then we got our first call. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah, it's that one obviously that transformed special operations. That Mike Vining: It did. ERIK LAWRENCE: that mission. It you know, it it was obviously bad at the time, as you can tell, but in the long run it it's really helped if you could go into how that was instrumental. Mike Vining: Yeah, it w it was a difficult mission. Operation Eagle Call, the Iran hostage rescue mission. on four November nineteen seventy-nine, the for the second time the American Embassy in Tehran was taken over, but this time it was taken over permanently. And And initially they had sixty-six Americans held hostage. They let some of them go. when we got ready to do our mission on April twenty fourth, nineteen eighty, there were fifty three hostages remaining. there that we were going to rescue. Now if you see a lot of things that are written saying they say there's fifty-two hostages. We we're gonna rescue fifty-two hostages. Wikipedia says fifty-two hostages. there was a s a a documentary on Eagle Claw saying that we had fifty two hostages. When I was at Softweek in Tampa, Florida last year, they had a big poster i in there, Soft Week, saying that we were going to rescue fifty two hosta we were to rescue 53. We weren't going to leave anybody behind. how everything got mixed up on that is that about two months after the Iran hostage rescue mission, a guy named last name is Queen really got sick. he was a and the Iranians were afraid that he might die in his care. So he he they released him. They did not want ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm. Mike Vining: him to die under h the their care and he had MS. So at ERIK LAWRENCE: that'd be terrible. Mike Vining: the end there were fifty two hostages but and that's where everybody gets confused. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, there's yeah, there's always the retelling of a story and how far you get from the original, depending on how many people tell it. So Mike Vining: Yeah. Well I always like to make a point. We're gonna rescue fifty three. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, but that created SOCOM and JSOC and you know the the way we're joint operations cur conducted. Mike Vining: Yeah, after Eagle Claw they they had the Holloway Commission. Admiral Holloway was in charge of it. And one of the things that came out of the Holloway Commission was Joint Special Operations Command, JSOC. A joint command that was responsible for training all special special operations of all four services. And you know, JSOC would run joint quarterly exercises. I was the JSOC exercise sergeant major from 92 to 96, running joint ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: readiness. exercises, emergency deployment exercises. So that was created following Eagle Claw. Also we needed Army needed our own special operation aviation element. So the 160th Special Operation Aviation Regiment was created, the Night Stalkers. And we had a serious problem with Intel. during the operation ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm. Mike Vining: trying to get intel what was going on inside the embassy. So we also created our own intel organization. And so those three things were created US SOCOM was after Operation Urgent Fury, Grenada, nineteen October twenty fifth, ERIK LAWRENCE: you're right. Mike Vining: nineteen eighty three, Grenada was a total mess. it It looked good on paper, you know what the public was seeing and everything. On the ground, it was chaos on the ground. So that's when US SOCOM, US Special Operations Command was formed after Grenada. ERIK LAWRENCE: Got it. Yeah, that there was some crazy stories that came out of there, especially with the the blue elements, the seals. yeah, it was very Mike Vining: Yeah, they we lost four seals on that boat drop. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: and and and t in and I knew one of the seals. I had actually worked with a guy named Kodiak that was on that boat drop that lost his life. There was also two SEAL EOD techs that lost their lives too that that's of the four ERIK LAWRENCE: wow. Yeah, no. Mike Vining: guys. That that if I may go into a little bit of what happened there. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, was it weather or what was it? Mike Vining: It was a combination of everything. so they the they had never done a nighttime boat drop. And the aircraft crew that did the boat drop had never done a boat drop before. And the sea state was really high. And so the plan was that they we dropped two they dropped two boats, then they would get on the boats and they would go to a ship for a planning meeting. And that's yeah, so ERIK LAWRENCE: my lord Mike Vining: that's what that was all about. And of course the four seals, you know, were lost at sea. I think their ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: boat overturned or whatever. And anyway they we never recovered them. Yeah, that was a messed up. Our target was messed up. We were supposed to go in my target B squadron was the Richmond Hill Prison to free the political prisoners that were being held in the prison. And we were supposed to go in at first, you know, just before First Light and then we got we got h pulled off you know, our time on target, we were told s ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: to wait. And because the Marines were doing an amphibious assault on the north side of the island and they were going to take Pearl Field. And they didn't want us to let the Grenadians and the Cubans on the island know that we were going to invade them. I don't understand that logic because we would have actually been the perfect diversion ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, exactly. Mike Vining: for the Marines where they would then be focusing on us and then so w so it was daylight, we're over the water, we hear Radio Grenada that the invasion of Grenada has been begun. So we're not even on the island. and ERIK LAWRENCE: jeez. Mike Vining: they said go to the beaches and meet the Americans on the beaches. And so when we flew over the beaches, there were people on the beaches all waving and everything. And and and then we go to the prison. we're in Blackhawks. We have six of them. We have fast ropes. I was on the fifth Blackhawk. we were to fast rope outside the prison and and prevent the there's a guard barracks there and prevent the guards from reinforcing the prison. That was our mission. But as soon as we got over the prison, Fort Frederick, which is on a ridge that's higher than us, they had two twins. ZSU 23s and they had some had 12.7 guns and and they just was shooting us up. You know, we were like those ducks in a carnival and we were ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: just getting pounded. Our my our door gunner got hit right off on the left side, got hit right off the the beginning, so that put his M60 out of action. And then we pulled off. And then we went around the second time and and came in the second time. And again it was it was intense. They were just sh I just wanted to be able to drop the fast ropes and get out of the ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: aircraft so we could fight. You can't fight inside of a air helicopter and helicopter four the pilot was mortally wounded and helicopter four crashed in front of us and then we pulled we we flew off and landed and we only had one helicopter that was flyable so Our team, my team, I was on another team got in the flyable helicopter. We went to the crash site, secured the crash site until the Medivac helicopter. Now we were supposed to have an AC one thirty gunship for support. Well, we did. The AC one hundred thirty gunship was on target when we were supposed to be on target. Nobody told the gunship that ERIK LAWRENCE: my gosh. Mike Vining: that there was a change in time. And so the then the gunship had to leave to get refueled and so we were without any support to suppress those guns on Fort Frederick. It was just and there was ERIK LAWRENCE: Could could the Mike Vining: a lot of other stuff that was just all messed up. ERIK LAWRENCE: Could the ACs fly in daylight back then? 'Cause we don't do that anymore. Mike Vining: Well, he the he was supposed to be there when we were supposed to be there before first light. And and ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Got it. Okay. Mike Vining: and but nobody told him there was a change. And anyway, we did not have any airs to s any support to suppress any of the guns and yeah, it was just it was messed up. I think about nineteen of our guys were wounded. ERIK LAWRENCE: Wow. Mike Vining: Four or five of the one sixtieth crew were wounded. and then of course the pilot, Lucas' name, he he was killed. He died from his wounds. ERIK LAWRENCE: What's what's you know, the the series of of missions you partake in, what's the units of a row after that? Mike Vining: Well d it's really disappointed. in the Iran hostage rescue mission, we had been training at this point for a little over two years since the unit formed and we had two years of training together under our belt. But the joint task force only had five months of training. under their belt, that we pulled together. and so that was the you know, of course the reason why J Soc was was formed. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: we were just going along for the ride. We you know, we just practiced our missions, you know, we practiced, you know, what would take place at Desert One, the refilling of the hell helicopters and everything, the transloading onto the helicopters, going to Desert Two, waiting, you know, spending then the day at Desert Two, then the that following night. we would go to the embassy and that's when our mission would start when we got to the embassy and we figured that we could ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: you know we were confident that we could do our job, rescue the hostages, and then make our way over to the soccer stadium in Xville. We actually fell that everything was gonna fall apart at the soccer stadium. That's when we thought that we would things would ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm. Mike Vining: start going bad. But but yeah, so you know we we felt confident in what our training and and what we would be able to do. My team was the s second story of the ambassador's residence. So once we went over the wall, we had a four-man team. Eric Haney, you probably heard me that name. He was our ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Mike Vining: assistant team leader. I was the breacher EOD guy. And anyway, we would go up through the kitchen to the second floor of the ambassador's residence, supposed to be hostages there on the second floor. And then I would go with a team leader, Bill Zumont and I. We would go to the roof of the ambassador's residence and then throw down a rope and then Bucky. Burris, Lieutenant Colonel Burris, was ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: there and everybody who carried the law dropped a law off, we would pull the law up, and then my team leader and I would be on the roof and we if at the entrance to the ambassador's residence, anybody tried to go through that, then we would hold them off with the laws. it was really a complex operation, you know. Some people try to con tear it compare it to the Israeli in Tebe operation, but it it was a lot more long endurance type thing than in Tebbe, you know. And we were going ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: the Iranian forces that were equipped with US weapons, US aircraft, US you know, everything. We we provided a lot of military support prior, you know, when the Shah was in power. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, understood. But that was ten years after Sante. Mike Vining: Yes it was. Nov I think it was November of nineteen seventy. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. And that was incredibly complex. Correct. Yeah, I had a team sergeant that was on Sante. He was on Blue Boy that crashed in there. So he was always like, I don't know if any of the Sante guys, you know, were there to to help or talk about it. I I don't know. Maybe Dick Meadows or or some of them guys. Mike Vining: We Yeah, Dick Meadows was there. He Dick Meadows was part of our group. He was in Iran, you know, he was the one that with a team in Iran. He ERIK LAWRENCE: that's right. Mike Vining: was the one that Yeah. So and we had the medic, our medic Jack Joplin was on Sante. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: so yeah. So yeah. I also found out new information on Sante too, why the host why the American POWs were moved. Because about twelve kilom twelve fifteen kilometers from Santay, the North Vietnamese were building a underground command and control complex. The Soviet engineers were the were were digging it. It's it's called K-9. If you Google the K9 no yeah Vietnam K-9 bunker and stuff like that. So they were digging this not very far from Sante and the Russians were monitoring ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: all the air traffic and they picked up U-2s and SR-71s and they realized that Sante was getting ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: a lot of attention, the prison. And they were worried that we would discover this bunker complex that they were building. And so that's why they ERIK LAWRENCE: Okay. Mike Vining: moved him. And and Ho Chi Minh laid ERIK LAWRENCE: Wow. Yeah, that word hasn't been put out. Mike Vining: No it isn't. Ho Chi Minh laid in state in K9 bunker when he died. And so I know this. I have a Vietnam I have a Vietnamese ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, well that'd be a good reason to move the prisoners. Mike Vining: contact. I have a Vietnamese contact that I learned all this from. ERIK LAWRENCE: well there's the intel. Yeah, I mean that's the site we're always missing is the enemy site. yeah, 'cause I've heard every s I've gone to some of the Sante reunions Mike Vining: We do we got a lot of books on Sante and a lot been told but But nobody is it got the Vietnamese the other side. You had there's always two sides to a story. So it wasn't the monsoons that they removed. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: It it you know, it was or anything else. th they didn't want us to discover K nine. ERIK LAWRENCE: Wow, that's disappointing. But 'cause that 'cause I've Mike Vining: And in your ERIK LAWRENCE: I've many of those stories on how well that went. Mike Vining: Yeah. But you know, it's like any with the ERIK LAWRENCE: What? Mike Vining: the guts to try, you know, to rescue Americans ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, of course. Mike Vining: being held against their will and and stuff. And that was one of the reasons that Delta was formed, so we would have in case of a POW type situation like that, that we would have a force that's ready trained and Can we be basically w you know, grab the intel and wheels up in four hours? ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's brilliant to have it ready 'cause the spin up was, you know, too much for things that is a a constant contingency. You know, you you gotta have that element ready to go. So what about what about Panama? What did you do during Panama? Mike Vining: during J Operation Just Cause Panama, I I was at that time I was working in TEOR. that was nineteen eighty nine. I was the I was the R and D breaching sergeant major for the unit. I d so from nineteen eighty six to nineteen ninety two I was the breaching R and D. Sergeant Major. So I was in TEOR training operation evaluation research part of the unit. And so my job I was tasked with doing next of kin notification. there were several of us that were picked for next of kin notification. So we go through a a class, a training class on how to do next of kin notification. So that's what our in a That to me, next to kin notification is the hardest ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Mike Vining: job in the military. to go to a family and v let them know that they lost husband, father, you know, and so ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I know. Mike Vining: yeah. Luckily we had no deaths during Panama. J we had one of the Helicopters went down. We had several people that were badly injured. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: but we did not have to do any mixed of kin notification, but that's what I did for that operation. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, that's that can be incredibly stressful because you're on pins and needles, you're not there. There's nothing you can do but sit and wait. yeah, I don't wish that upon anybody. Mike Vining: You're not there. And just and ERIK LAWRENCE: That Mike Vining: you just hear the news, you know, hear what's going on, you know. yeah. our main mission was to rescue ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, there's there's a lot of good stories out of that too, so Mike Vining: Yeah, the main mission was to rescue Kurt Meuse, who was being held in the prison there. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I know most of those guys that was on that assault and they they've always got spectacular stories from that. You know, Ed Ed Certon and you know, Sergeant Major and Commander getting left on the roof. He always Mike Vining: Mm-hmm. ERIK LAWRENCE: told that story. He's like, Yeah, it's you know, they'll come back for you if you have the commander with you. So Mike Vining: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was left a couple of times in Vietnam too. So it's kind of a lonely feeling when you're out there. yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: really? Mike Vining: So you're out there by yourself, you know radio, and you're just like, well, they're gonna end up missing me, so they'll eventually come back. Yeah, we it was a fire support base, it was a special yeah, we had a special forces camp. And and first calve, first cavalry division wanted to occupy it. And so we combat assaulted into the camp and I was with the first of the ninth blues first calves. So it was just the Master Sergeant Mike Land and myself that went into the special forces camp that the Special Forces had abandoned. And the other the the The first cab guys did patrols in the perimeter. It was a also this used to be an old French camp. There was a fr runway that the French had ERIK LAWRENCE: makes sense. Mike Vining: built. And so we were looking for booby traps and in the camp that might be there. There was a lot of, you know, the when the special forces left the camp, they blew up all the bunkers, but some of the ex C4 charges didn't go off. And so we were picking all that stuff ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah. Mike Vining: up and so we were clearing the camp of unexploded ordnance and anything that we could find. Next thing we know, down at the other end of the runway at the thing, all these helicopters coming in and then they leave. So ERIK LAWRENCE: Huh. Mike Vining: the first of the ninth blues, and so there's two EOD guys in this camp. We'd have no radio, I have I have an sixteen. Mass Talent Land has a forty five. we got a lot of C four. and that's it. So we was like, Well we're gonna have to spend the night here and it was sometime later that they actually come they came back and picked us up. When they got back to Fuqvin They ri somebody might have asked about us and said, Where's the EOD people? ERIK LAWRENCE: I'll bet, yeah. Mike Vining: And Yeah. The other time I was left on the ground ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, as an attachment you always worry about that 'cause you're Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: not part of their head count, typically. Mike Vining: No, no, no. And the other time was Rock Island East, you know, and the helicopters, the two helicopters we had, Rock Island East was the largest enemy weapons ammunition cache destroyed in Vietnam. So I was part of a seven man team, but at this point there was only two of us on the ground, EOD. Again it was Master Sergeant Land and myself. I went on a lot of missions with the Master Sergeant Mike Land. And then we had a squad from Echorecon second of the twelfth on for security. And when we pulled the shot, got on the helicopter. Well there's a whole I I've talked about this before, but anyway, this captain on the helicopter says cut the fuse, cut the fuse. So we had ten priming systems and fifteen minutes, so we went out there and we just cut fuses. Then we go back to the helicopter and he says, light it, light it. We don't have any more M60 fuse igniters, so we're using C ration matches, splitting time fuse, putting the heads in the slit, and lighting it. And and and we've ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Yeah. Mike Vining: cut the fuses basically in half. And then we get to the helicopter. Well, our pr we had eight perimeter charges too around this two-ship HLZ. Now those C4 blocks are going off. This was to keep the enemy from r you know, t retaking the site, you know, and pulling the fuses. And then ERIK LAWRENCE: Cutting the fuses, yeah. Mike Vining: they think that we're getting mortared, I believe. I that's what I only think. And they were wanting to leave. We get in the helicopter and then we can't lift off. We're too overloaded. So Door Gunner taps me on the shoulder and and says, You're gonna have to get off and get in the helicopter behind. He tapped an infantry guy, so we get off. They can't lift off behind, so they drop off two people. There's four of us on the ground. The helicopters are leaving. The time fuse is burning. And I don't want to be there when when it goes off. So I was gonna I'm gonna cut fuses again. And then another helicopter that was empty in orbit came down and swooped us up. So I didn't have to cut fuses. So that was that was about seventy four tons of that went off. At Rock Island East. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, no stress there, huh? Mike Vining: Yeah. Yeah. The official report, I got a copy of it, said there was a little confusion on X Fil. So the person that wrote it wasn't on the ground. ERIK LAWRENCE: He's a comedian. Mike Vining: Yeah. Yeah. So ERIK LAWRENCE: So, you know, a lot of what you've done is pioneered a lot of the the bomb tech EOD breaching for the entire community. I mean, a lot of what you were doing, you know, along with you know, Desert Storm and when you're on the investigations for Cobar Towers, I mean they w because you're, you know, the national mission unit, they can pull you and you know, you're you're the subject matter expert, literally. I mean, how much pressure is there in that? Mike Vining: Yeah. Yeah, well it's good to be recognized. General Downing was picked to do the Downing assessment for Cobar Towers. And I know I know all the you know, generals General Steiner, General Downing, General Luck, you know, all those guys I know quite well because I a lot of times have to brief him. and ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: like I had to brief General Steiner during Desert Storm on Taji number two, the Iraqi command and control bunker that we dropped sixty blue t 109s on and didn't even do any damage to it. and so that was going to be my target during Desert Storm to d to breach it with the Rangers and destroy it. So I had to brief him on that. so I so General Downing was picked to do the Kobar Towers investigation. And he picked me to be his explosive investigator for that. So I worked during Cobar Towers, the 1996 truck bombing that killed 19 airmen and wounded over 300 there in Saudi Arabia. I worked jointly with the FBI on the ground there. The FBI ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Mike Vining: was doing the criminal investigation because, you know, the crime against the United States. So and I worked several times with the FBI and so yeah we we're trying to figure out what the the bomb what they used to the truck bomb and how it was set off w the what type of explosives it was and how much explosive it was and then also the security failures at Cobar Towers. So yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: And as far as the breach ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, it's instrumental in, you know, writing up the new force protection procedures. Mike Vining: Yeah, and that was a the force protection this they yeah, they they weren't there was Air Force teams that had gone into Cobar Towers and made and recommended a lot of different security upgrades, but they weren't implemented. They were you know, like putting mylar on the windows to you know, the mylar coats sheets that go on the windows. That was put in a budget and that was put set for the maybe the next commander. Thing you know, it wasn't a priority. several months earlier in Riyadh, a pickup truck loaded with 220 pounds of explosives and acetylene tanks. Drove into the Sang building, the Saudi Arabian National Guard building, killed several people, wounded several people, Americans there at the Saudi Arabian National in Riyadh. And that had occurred earlier. Somehow their threat was just focused on 200 pounds. But still, even with 200 pounds ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: of explosive threat, the two buildings, 131 and 133. They're eight story buildings with a lot of glass in them. The fence was only fifty-four feet from those buildings. So even two hundred pounds would have been devastating. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: Now there's a parking lot out there, empty parking lot. Now the Air Force said they asked the Saudis to extend the perimeters, and the Saudis said that denied. We talked to the Saudis and they said no, nobody asked us to extend the perimeter. If they did, we would have said no, it's okay. You could extend the perimeter. It's there was no there was no documentation to what took place. It was one person ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: said this, one person said that. And the buildings were not really suitable yet, you know. They they There had to be upgrades to those buildings besides the mylar sheeting that would help protect the glass fragments. The nineteen deaths were had th they all suffered mortal injury from glass. Now some people when the f the facade of the the building collapsed, some people were they were crushed, but they had already s received mortal injuries from the glass. And ERIK LAWRENCE: Got it. Mike Vining: and and it it was regular glass. It wasn't tempered glass, you know, like we have the codes that we have in our buildings. There were no emergency lighting. You know, as soon ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, it's just sheet glass. Mike Vining: as the blast went off, the power went out, everything went black, no emergency lighting in the buildings. there was even not even any smoke detectors in the building. There was nobody, there was no Where do you go if there was an alert, where do you go? Well, the best place to go is to consolidate into the stairwell in the stairwell of the buildings. You know, there's no windows and that would be and then you would move to assembly area when you were told to move, but there was no way to notify anybody that you needed to take cover. so there was two policemen on top of the building. They saw what was Air Force policemen, saw what was going on, they went to the eighth floor, knocked on all the doors on the eighth floor, knocking on doors, telling people to evacuate. They went to the seventh floor when the when the truck detonated. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, that's that's Mike Vining: Now ERIK LAWRENCE: incredibly poor force protection. Mike Vining: Yeah, the FBI and I of trying to fig calculate and figure out how much explosive force took place there. We both kind of we ranged from three thousand to five thousand pounds equivalent of T and T. ERIK LAWRENCE: Wow. Mike Vining: but but the which is a lot. But the S special weapons defence agency came in They calculated twenty to thirty thousand pounds of explosive. So in Wikipedia, it's ERIK LAWRENCE: What? Mike Vining: they they s yes, yes, it's it's and I can tell you how they miscalculated. I mean there might be you know they're great they were great in nuclear weapons, they're not very great in conventional explosives and stuff like that. ERIK LAWRENCE: Obviously. Mike Vining: so yeah, how th and and I pointed out the errors and how they calculate. But in Wikipedia it says that I think it says that we agreed on the d the Downian Assessment Task Force agreed that it was 20,000 pounds equivalent of explosive TNT. And I wrote the Annex and I don't agree. And my an the an you know the Downian ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: Assessment Task Force has been published, but the annexes haven't been published. My Annex has not been published. So the then they go through pub, you know, stuff. So it it was really I would really today looking at it, I would say it's closer to five thousand pounds, which is a lot. And it was five thousand pounds of composition ERIK LAWRENCE: That's serious. Mike Vining: C four. It was C four. And it was it was and and it was our ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, that's that's a lot. wow. Yeah. Mike Vining: C four. It was American made C four that was in that truck. And you can tell different yeah, ERIK LAWRENCE: Stolen. Mike Vining: you can tell different other countries make composition C4, but how it's manufactured and there's impurities in it. You know, C4 has 91% r dx explosive, and the other stuff is plasticizers and stuff. But there when in the process of making C four or making RDX, one of the byproducts is another explosive called HMX, and you can figure out how much percentage of HMX and stuff. So you with the residue you can figure calculate you could you can actually tell w where an explosive was manufactured. ERIK LAWRENCE: It's a fingerprint. Yeah, it's a fingerprint. Mike Vining: It's like a fingerprint. And and so and also that tanker truck was a sewage truck and it was filled with sewage to conceal the explosives. So ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: when it detonated, people, eyewitnesses said it stunk. It smelt like a barnyard and stuff like that. So we know that it they had s it was filled with sewage and it was a sewage truck and The other thing is what happened is so the sewage act as a as a tamper. So when the truck detonated, yeah, ERIK LAWRENCE: Tamper, yeah. Mike Vining: forced the all the blast pressure downward. And so and ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: the other thing is the water table was six foot. So that's a boundary layer. So when the explosive force was directed ERIK LAWRENCE: good. Yeah. Mike Vining: down, it hit it it hit the water table. boundary layer and stuff. So it was a giant crater. It was a huge crater. And that's ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: what they were kept going by. First Defense Special Weapons Agency told me and I went to a briefing that the that the sewage on top was an in insignificant factor in directing the force downward. I'm like we we use we yeah we ERIK LAWRENCE: No. No. Hy hydrodynamics. Come on. Mike Vining: Yeah, we use water as a as a you know as a tamper and the directional thing all the time and and then they never calculated the the water table, you know, the bound six foot layer of w the and and of course I went ERIK LAWRENCE: Water table. Yeah. Yeah, they don't understand the density of water and how that move in the wave. Yeah, I mean that's basic stuff. Mike Vining: by different things. You know, I looked at trees, how the leaves were taken off, the stripped trees were stripped, there was a Humvee that was flipped over. And you and of course in a This is like an urban setting where you have these eight story buildings, you're gonna have a lot of reflective blast pressure. So, you know, it as the blast wave goes out, it's gonna reflect off buildings and s sometimes it actually strengthens, you know, just like two rivers joining ERIK LAWRENCE: Correct. Focuses it. Yeah. Mike Vining: together. And the so when they did some testing. I think down in I don't know in Shelby, Mississippi, or anyway, they got quiet, but never did that it was retracted. And of course the Air Force ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: jumped on 20 to 30,000 pounds. The Air Force actually liked ERIK LAWRENCE: Of course, covered their ass. Mike Vining: that figure. Yes, it did. And and saying how can you protect from twenty to thirty thousand pounds? so Yeah, so yeah, force protection is one of my big area I have four areas that you know I that I harp on and you know and of course mentorship is an area that I think is very important. I also speak about moral injury and then I do force protection, base defense force protection. I I b view those as two different things, but they're t they work together ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: based defense and force protection. And and the other thing is I'm big on risk assessments, whether it's in training or in operations, to analyze all the risk and look at factors to mitigate the risk. So those are safety and that kind of stuff. So those are my four pillars that I speak about a lot of times. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well and y and yeah, well that's where, you know, I kinda you and I were speaking previously about the moral injury and how it's being now delineated from other issues. You know, everybody used to pilot into PTSD or battle fatigue or this or that, but it's a much later onset, per se. 'Cause you know, it really didn't Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: hit me on some points until I read some of the documents you sent me and I was like, I totally understand now what I was thinking about years ago and I had no idea what to call it. So let let's go into moral injury. Mike Vining: Yeah, I I didn't when it was first brought yeah, when it was first brought to my attention about moral injury, I really didn't know what the person was the definition or what the person was talking about. It was about four years ago, a a research psychologist from that was Brigham Young University contacted me. He saw me on the internet and reached out to me and wanted to talk to me. He wanted to bring moral injury to special operations, to highlight moral injury, moral and explain what it is and it could be a factor in a lot of suicides that we're having. And so I had to so ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes. Mike Vining: he explained to me what moral and then I started learning more and more about moral injury. So he was teaching me about at the time about moral injury And then I was teaching him about special operations. But then I said to him, he ERIK LAWRENCE: Got it. Mike Vining: wanted to bring it to moral injury to make it a point in special operations, something to look at. And I said, Well, let's take it to the EOD community first. I'm I'm a honorary board member of the EOD Warrior Foundation. I said, let's take it to the EOD community, because we have a need in the EOD community. We have a high rate of suicide in the EOD community. Let's present it there and then work on it. And then you know we can fine-tune it and then we can present it to the special operations people. And so now we there's even a document, USOCOM has a document on the invisible injury, moral injury. so there's more awareness now, but you know, I have I have a Bachelor of Science in Sociology and I had no idea. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, and that's where I'm gonna link a lot of those documents you provided because they're very clear and concise and they're actually they're authoritative, you know, they're not there's no made up stuff. This is like a legitimate issue that's come to the forefront that we have to deal with. Mike Vining: Yeah, yeah. It it has moral injury has several names. soul wound, soldier's heart, it you know, I looked ERIK LAWRENCE: Soldier's Heart. Mike Vining: at, you know, a soldier's heart, you know, it has different labels, different n but it's all the same. So, you know, and it's a it's a guilt, you know, and to the person that that's dealing with it, you know, it's it's a fact, it's a hard fact to the person that's dealing with it. you know, and it's so individualized. So other people, you know, might not even think that it might be a moral injury. But to this person and and of course, you know, as you grow, as you develop from a child up to an adult, you get you learn your different ethical, moral standards that you you in embody. you know, you learn more morals and ethics from your parents, your family your your family, from your clo your school, your teachers, your classmates, from your church, you know. And these are who makes up what you are and your standards. And when you violate your standards of conduct, that's a moral injury. And And it can be survivor's guilt is one form and one person on ERIK LAWRENCE: Okay. Mike Vining: didn't understand how survivor's guilt is a moral injury. But to the person, you know, it's it's real. and ERIK LAWRENCE: very. Mike Vining: yeah, so you know if And and then there's guilt that you there's guilt that you failed to do your job to the standard that you expect yourself to hold, I give a story that, That as an EOD tech, you were to go into a building and clear it from IEDs to make it safe. So an Intel team can go in and you know search for Intel, and then when they're in there, they trip an IED that you didn't discover. And you so now you have you the I failed to do my job, you know, as a EO trained EOD tech, I should have discovered that IED. So you f you think you fail. And people got killed or injured because your failure. But then you also can explain, sit down and talk to the EOD tech that the enemy is good at what they do. The enemy is good at equally ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Vining: as good as concealing their IEDs. And so, you know, it's just it just one of those things. And a lot of people feel guilty over things that really weren't in their control, but somehow they were. responsi they feel that they had some responsibility in them. there's the the guilt of failure to report something. If you see something that was totally ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: wrong, criminal, illegal, or anything, but you kept quiet on that, it maybe that was a one-time incident, but because you kept quiet, that behavior, whatever you failed to report, continues. and so now ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: you feel guilt that you you could have prevented it by reporting it and you didn't report it. Like and so when you have all these different situations, and a lot of times it's called a moral dilemma. You you are put into a situation where you have a moral dilemma. And you gotta make a decision, and you gotta make a decision right then and right now, and whether ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: it's right or wrong. You know, you gotta live with that ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: more whether to pull the trigger or not to pull the trigger. that's a moral dilemma. And y it turns out that you might have ac killed in the heat of combat, killed a person that was actually unarmed, you know. you just you just gotta it's just the you know, the chaos of of those missions and stuff like that. So the solution is to recognize it and people to recognize that, that's what I'm dealing with. I'm dealing with a issue of my conscience, my moral conscience. and how do I solve that? You know, one of the things is Keeping silent is not a way to solve it. To not to to try to ignore it where you can't ig you know you it's like an elephant in a room and you really can't ignore it. And it just stays with you and over time it just seems to be like a cancer or an infection and it just it's just eaten away at you, you know. And so it it becomes a you know un ERIK LAWRENCE: So you have to process it? Mike Vining: Yes, you have to process it. And there's different ways of processing it. You can I think one good thing is to just write it all out. Put it put it down on paper. Write out and then you can put it in an envelope and put it and I I told a soldier, a combat medic to do that this is some of the solutions to his problem. Put it in an envelope and just put it away. Or you put it in the write it all down, put it in the envelope, and then you just burn it, you know. If that might be the answer. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: The other thing is I to asked he says you can do a formal IG complaint. And he ended up choosing the ERIK LAWRENCE: No, yeah. Mike Vining: R an IG an R IG complaint. But a lot of stuff that he was dealing with, I told him, y it was totally out of your control. You know, you were treating those the casualties on the battlefield during a four hour firefight. You were tr you know, your job was to treat them. The other failures that took place around this firefight, you even though it it bothers you that they were these failures, they were out of your control. You had no control over all that. And but anyway he I think that helped him. He did an IG campaign. I was involved in it. And it you know, they interviewed me. And a couple of other people. I even talked to the ground the ground force commander and who was a captain now's a lieutenant national guard lieutenant colonel and I just talked to him, make sure that he was okay. 'Cause he was being blamed for w everything that went wrong on this firefight, this captain was. ERIK LAWRENCE: guy, yeah, he was he was the the token. Mike Vining: Yeah. And and and different other things took place that that w upset this there was some purple hearts given out. There was only one Valor medal given out, it was a silver star. And supposedly th this person did all these these actions at the firefight and it but he didn't he was the first casualty during the firefight. So he was ERIK LAWRENCE: well they try to cover up things with Mike Vining: He took two eight ERIK LAWRENCE: the metal too. Mike Vining: Yes, they did. Just like Pat Tillman, the incident with Pat Tillman. You know, he got the Silver Star in a friendly firefight. Remember. so yeah, it's so he he got so he was the first casualty. He took two AK forty seven rounds to his head. But he was still living, he was still breathing. The combat medic said pro thought he might have been brain dead pretty much, but during the firefight he kept him alive. He he he died on the way back met when he was medevaced out. But anyway he was put in he was the only person put in a silver said that he how he i reorganized the de perimeter, the defense, and did all this kind of stuff. And he wa when the f he was the first in the first fire he was killed. None of that happened. That ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, that's terrible. Mike Vining: bothered him too. But the these are these are medals given out you know, what do they call? Like Pat Tillman. And I you know unfortunately it happens all the time. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, we know. And that's where when you're near it, you can hear the real story from the guys and you kinda know what's bullshit and what's not. But what what do we tell the young guys when they're at that decision point? You know, that's a a lot of people don't have the intestinal fortitude to to buck the system when they see something's wrong. You know. you know, our crews, they're a little Mike Vining: Yeah, that's I ERIK LAWRENCE: more apt to it, but many people will not. Mike Vining: yeah. Hmm. That's a tough one. see something and you're f afraid to report it. Yeah. It takes it takes a lot of courage to to to report it, you know. it's like ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: the massacre in Vietnam, the My Lai Vast massacre, for example. It was the helicopter pilot that reported it, that saw it and reported ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, you stopped it. Yeah. Mike Vining: Yeah. takes a lot of courage to do that. But you know, you gotta tell yourself Yeah, I don't know. It's a tough one. You just gotta have the courage. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. And it may take years for the for it to become, you know, accepted on what you did choose to do. You know, I've seen that on Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: on multiple, you know, instances where years later they're like, yeah, okay, that was correct. it may not be the candor may not have been appreciated at the time. But, we're paid for our judgment at at a lot of these higher end units. And you know, a guy's not doing it out of being scared or something. It's, hey, this is wrong and this is why and that's a very hard Mike Vining: Right. ERIK LAWRENCE: road to take. Mike Vining: Yeah, and that's well, you know, and I know a incident, do not want to go into a lot of detail, but it had to do with falsifying travel vouchers and making claims on travel voucher. ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Mike Vining: And and and it was organized, you know, that people T DY, okay, this is how you when you f get back, this is how you or how you fill out your travel voucher, you can claim this and claim all that stuff like that. Then it was one guy that went to the command and told the command what was going on at this place and what the then these were all ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: so there of course there was a huge investigation. several people were let discharged from the army for the good of the army. There was several Article ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: 15s that were given out that were put in a restricted file. And then then after a period of time the restrict that Article fifteen would be lifted. but ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: yeah it was but that one person knew that that this was wrong and and it took a lot of courage to report it, even though it would be initially vilified by e everybody that was ERIK LAWRENCE: I'm sure. Mike Vining: involved. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, I I heard about that. That was a long time ago, obviously, but that sent a message across to everywhere that, you know, we know better. Th there's no point to that, you know. How you do one thing is how you Mike Vining: Yeah. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: do everything. So Mike Vining: I I've had to, you know, as a sergeant major and like when I was exercise, I had to everybody's travel vouchers, I had to review their travel vouchers and I would look at and say, Now, you claimed two dollars at the Fayetteville airport for a red cap service. We don't there there is no ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, there is. Mike Vining: red cap at the Fayetteville airport, you know? You you wanna you gonna commit a fraud ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yep, I remember that. Mike Vining: on your tech travel vouchers? for two dollars you know or or you're ERIK LAWRENCE: Two dollars. Yeah. No, that's that's Mike Vining: you're you're claiming mileage for this trip and you are not authorized to take your POV on this trip and you're claiming so you know I would stop it right you know I would stop it right ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: there and you don't want to do this so I would review travel vouchers ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, remember selection is ongoing. It never ends. Mike Vining: Yeah. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: So what what about Mike Vining: So ERIK LAWRENCE: your book? Blasting through. Mike Vining: Blasting through. I wish I knew. So June fifteenth, I submitted ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha ha. Mike Vining: my my main script, June fifteenth, to the defense office of Defense Office of Prepublication Security and Review. And that's what you're supposed to do. You know, especially as being in a in the type of units that I was involved in, some of the missions that I was involved in. you know, a lot of people they've wrote and written books like a lot of people that SEALs that have gotten into trouble because they have not done the right process. They've gone to a publisher and now they're being sued by the Department of Defense because they didn't go through the right channels. So it but in their defense, I think a lot of people that write books didn't even know about the Defense Office of Prepublication Security and Review that you had to do that. I I gotta ERIK LAWRENCE: No. Mike Vining: know that publishers know that. and I think that publishers should have been on it before ERIK LAWRENCE: Yes. Of course they do. They don't care though. Mike Vining: you before Before we accept your your mem you know, your book on killing bin Laden or whatever it is, it's gotta go through th they'd rather publish it and get the money. so you can s they can sue you for everything that you make on your book. So mine has been there. I also ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, they did that to Matt Bissinette. Yeah. Mike Vining: Yeah, yes. So mine's been there for review and I keep they keep me posted every so often, you know, where what the process is. I don't know how it's looking, but now it's done with the Defense Office of Prepublication Security Review, but they have then sent it out to four commands that I talk about in the book. So now their ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: their those four commands and I don't know which four they are are reviewing my book. So I have no time frame on the book. I had to send in all the photographs. that I'm gonna use in the books. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: Some I'm not I sent them like sixty-two photographs. Not probably gonna use all of them, but we'll when we get ready to cherry pick which ones we're gonna use. so that's I'm just waiting on this review process. Now I gave a heads up I I pr sent my manuscript to the public affairs office of USOCom a at the same time as I did the Defense Office to USOCOM and USASAC public affairs. So they both have a copy of my manuscript beforehand because I know that's where what the two commands that they probably will send to. ERIK LAWRENCE: Of course. Yeah. Mike Vining: I don't know if they'll send it to the other groups like the agency, the s Department ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, probably. Mike Vining: of State, Homeland Security, things that you know, I don't know how where it'll all go. but it's it's not a fast process. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, you would hope they would have some kind of deadline where they had to act on it, but I guess, you know, they do what they want Mike Vining: No. ERIK LAWRENCE: when they want. Mike Vining: The website says it may take weeks or months. so no no no deadline. the book has about 90,000 words in it. There's thirty chapters. Lieutenant General retired. Reynolds Hoover wrote the forward to my book. And I'm honored to have him write my forward. Today, Lieutenant General Reynolds Hoover, retired, is the chief executive officer of the 2028 LA Olympics. So he's he is running ERIK LAWRENCE: Wow. Mike Vining: he is so that's his job today. I and he's a fr a friend of mine. I'm like, wow, you mean you're retired. Now you're doing the LA Olympics, 2028. Not an easy job. So he wrote the Ford of my book. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, that's not retiring. Mike Vining: That's not retiring. And he he wrote the Ford. And what I'm doing different in my book than I think in a lot of other books is not I don't want this book to be those people interested in reading military history and a story about me and military history. you know, the history basically from the nineteen sixties to the you know, the end of the the twentieth century. a after each basically after each chapter, after I get done with Vietnam, ch a couple chapters on Vietnam, I do a reflections. I do a look back, you ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm. Mike Vining: know. and I talk about leadership, I talk about ethics, I talk about moral injury, mentorship, risk assessment, force protection. I do a reflection. And then I t you know, we go into Eagle Claw and I do a reflection on say Eagle Claw and I do one on Grenada, one on, you know, Desert Storm, the Haiti Operation, Up Uphold Democracy. when I was on I was the senior enlisted advisor for the joint task force on the aircraft carrier US America during the Haiti ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Mike Vining: operation. I do a reflection on so in Cobar Towers and so and and I and I think that the book these reflections and stuff s have messages even in the corporate world, you know, that these lessons can 'cause ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Mike Vining: the same thing goes so, you know, In a corporate and I know that the Joint S Special Operations University is excited ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Mike Vining: to see it out. they're they're wanting to be part of their curriculum or program. The book may be a you know want they they they really are looking forward to it. and I know that Doctor Cardison ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, it'd be a great reference document. Mike Vining: Yeah, J Dr. John Cardison of the Joint Special Operation University has gone to the commander and deputy commander of USOCOM and just talk ta telling about my book. that it's gonna be a very helpful book for the future, you know, special operation leaders and everything. But I think corporate the corporate world can there's lessons to learn in the corporate world on leadership and ethics and moral you know, moral injury. Even in the corporate world there's moral injury going on. ERIK LAWRENCE: yeah. Mike Vining: and there's risk assessments in the corporate world, you know, they may be different than what the risk are in the military world, but they are, I'm I'm hoping for before the holidays ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, they're general principles they can apply to so many different situations. Mike Vining: Yeah, not just military. So I hope it's a helpful book. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, well I hope it's out sooner than later because you know, I history books are great and all, but I'd rather teach lessons, you know, than than just Mike Vining: Thanks. ERIK LAWRENCE: state facts that somebody else has already previously stated. Mike Vining: Yeah, that's what I think is gonna be different about my book. It's there's lessons. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, After you started talking about moral injury, I had to go back into one of my previous books and add that in there because I it was like a whole section Mike Vining: Wow. ERIK LAWRENCE: that I didn't even think about or know about. But when I put it in it kinda completed a lot of the thoughts and gave it more a better categorizing of the of the different issues. So the words getting out and you helped do that. Mike Vining: Yeah, and now I'm involved with different I just I got a meeting today with Matthew Cahill. He he he's the head of the Green Star Family Organization. And so I'm now honorary board member of the Green Star family. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, mention what that is, 'cause that's new Mike Vining: suicides. ERIK LAWRENCE: to a lot of people. Mike Vining: Yeah, the Green Star family is a support family just like the blue star and the gold star, but for for the families of the had veterans or active duty family members that have committed suicide. So it's a support for those families that have lost one to suicide that served in the military, still s are serving or w have served in the military. It's also they want to bring awareness suicide awareness and suicide prevent pre prevention. So they have a there's a bill before Congress, a House resolution, that to make to crush congressionally recognize the Green Star Family Organization, just as they do the Blue Star and ERIK LAWRENCE: Okay. Mike Vining: the Gold Star family. So I have a meeting this afternoon with Matt on the Green Star family. He wants give me more background on the Green Star. Then on one October I'm meeting I'm meeting with the chair with the chairman of the Veterans the the chair the how the the House Chairman of the V Veterans Affairs Committee on one October. I'm I'm doing a Zoom ERIK LAWRENCE: wow. Mike Vining: talk with with them. on moral injury. They 'cause they want to know more about moral injury. So I'm I'm doing that. and I'm also going to be bringing up the Greens to have them support the Green Star family bill. y so ERIK LAWRENCE: Well you're you're you're definitely doing a lot to help the community with with your experience and and knowledge and and you're not sitting in your house telling yourself this. You're getting out there and and putting the word out. That's what a lot of people need to do instead of sitting and complaining by themselves. Mike Vining: Yeah, yeah, with the National U D Association, I'm a director and the historian for the National U D Association. I'm a honorary advisory board member for the EOD Warrior Foundation. Now I'm a honorary board member for the Green Star family. and just recently there's a EOD guy that's promoting type one diabetes Barbie dolls. I don't know if you've heard this story. ERIK LAWRENCE: Hmm. No. Mike Vining: So Mattel has recently made a a Barbie doll that is a diabetic, a type one diabetic Barbie doll. Has a insulin patch ERIK LAWRENCE: Huh. Mike Vining: on and pump and ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: all this kind of stuff. Now I several years ago I had a grandniece that had type one diabetes and sh at the age of thirty she lost her life to diabetes. And so this John Navarre, the EOD tech, John Navarre, retired EOD tech, is promoting these type one diabetes Barbie dolls, raising funds to buy them and to give them to the different c clinics and different other things so that they can then donate to a child like has been recently diagnosed with. type 1 diabetes to give them a type 1 diabetes doll. So he's ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah, wow. That's a great effort. Mike Vining: yeah, so I'm supporting that too. I just recently he sent me a bar what type 1 diabetes doll and I I autographed it and it went on an auction and it sold for twelve hundred and fifty dollars. So he was able now to buy with that donation a hundred and ten new bar hundred type one diabetes dolls. So ERIK LAWRENCE: that's perfect. Mike Vining: so he's it's a charity program giving out those with diabetes. So I'm supporting that. so different other things that I can help out, I I help out. ERIK LAWRENCE: No, that's great. I I mean you're you're making an effect that's that's got, you know, great ramifications with so many different people. You know, and and you know, we know a lot of guys that they're smart guys. I wish there was more this active because we have to help each other and we have to get the word out Mike Vining: We do. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: and if you can lend lend, you know, your your name to it, you can see how how great that helped that effort. Mike Vining: Right. Yeah. So I've got this kind of unwanted fame. I didn't ask for it. Like you said, it all started ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha ha. Mike Vining: with a meme. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: I mean, but you know, I got it now. So my I ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: have an editor. I have an editor for my book. It was her idea to do the reflections. and ERIK LAWRENCE: wow. Smart. Mike Vining: and The editor, I'm not on I wasn't on any social media. And the the editor wanted to put me on X, so I agreed to go in on X as blasting through. I have right now I think two hundred and thirty-nine thousand people that follow me on X, which amazes me. As soon as I went on X, the numbers just started going up. And you know, I talk about different things on X. You know, I talk about moral injury, I I pr I do the type one to promote the type one diabetes, I do the Green Star family, I do do all the different stuff and I also give you know, pictures of you know, I sent I did a thing on X with I won the science fair when I was a senior in high school. I run the grand prize at at at the you know the Grand champion to the science fair. I I built a Wilson cloud chamber that in had radioactive isotopes that I would put in the cloud chamber. And you can see the alpha and beta particles in the cloud chambers. You know, so I had a picture of that with me in the cloud chamber and my partner Chuck Thomas. You know, so you know, I raised a grand champion steer, so I've got myself with my grand champion steer. Yeah. So I Yeah, just and ERIK LAWRENCE: Amazing. Mike Vining: and all the caving and climbing that I've done. I put stuff on there. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: But I also put out messages too. I intermix it with messages on my ex. And you know, it's amazing when when I talked about Eagle Claw, one person wrote I mentioned that eight people died on Eagle Claw, five Air Force crewmen that were trapped in the cockpit, the three Marines that were trapped. crewmen that were trapped in the cargo compartment of the helicopter. And one guy wrote that he didn't know that anybody died on the mission. So it's ERIK LAWRENCE: my goodness. yeah. Mike Vining: it's an education. I I just put posted my time in Sudan when I was in Sudan during the time when a Libya there was a conflict between Libya and Chad and Libyan so you know, Chad was going through a rough time and so they were Chad terrorist sponsored by Libya doing setting off the sophisticated IEDs in Khartoum, Sudan. So I was in Sudan for ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: the security looking at the part of it detail to look to the security of President Numari, the president of Sudan, look at his security detail. So I was working with the military intelligence people that were doing his security and also the EOD, the Sudanese EOD people, and I spent time in and I saw, you know, talked about the you know, what was going on in Sudan during that time. And then which is in my book, the chapter on Sudan is in my book. I went back then and trained trained the with another fellow. He and I went back into Sudan and trained the Sudanese EOD people. Brought him in equipment and trained them trained them. ERIK LAWRENCE: I bet that was yeah. That would modernize them immensely just by you showing up. Mike Vining: Well, they were trained by the British but they they allowed so much on gadgets. you know, they you know, they had explosive sniffers and different they they were they didn't really have the background training and they were l relying on the tools, you know, like the s explosive sniffers and different other things like that. So and then of course I did went in There's a lot of stuff I haven't really talked about that'll be in my book. Like I went th his Royal Highness Prince Adullah. He later became King Adullah, in Saudi Arabia, but ERIK LAWRENCE: Mm-hmm. Mike Vining: I w went in a part of a team that evaluated his security in Saudi Arabia. And that was I think nineteen eighty eighty four. I went and did his security in Su and and so I write about, you know doing all that kind of stuff that things I haven't really talked about. On these podcasts. ERIK LAWRENCE: Well, I hope we can get that book out, you know. You need to be able to to see that. But the the next time I can capture your time I want to talk about traumatic brain injuries. Because Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: that's been a lot of my medical issues and a lot of my friends with all the breaching we used to do and how we did it was pretty rudimentary. that's where I was talking to Mike Vining: Well ERIK LAWRENCE: Joe Vega and he passed me your info. Mike Vining: Yeah, well yeah when I did I was the breach you know, well there was two of us that actually r authored the breaching book for the unit, Bill Wilderman and myself. We sat down and we we we had all these breaching things that we were doing, but we didn't have a book that actually told you step by step on how to do it and all the other kind of stuff. So when I was the breaching sergeant major from eighty six to ninety two I brought in the Army Corps of Engineers t so all my breaching tests were instrumented by the Army Corps of every test I did, I had Army Corps engineers in there and we would do have pressure sensors and we would have high speed cameras and we would you know, so I was trying to capture all this stuff, blast pressure and everything. So ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: you know, I I had I think my budget was like five million dollars. and so, you know, I wanted to do it right and, you know, to capture all the information, the breaching things and to and develop it and and put it in a book. You know, this is y if you got this kind of wall or this kind of door, this is the the different charges that you can use and that kind of stuff. And ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Yeah, I just I mean, back Mike Vining: So that was my after I left the breaches ERIK LAWRENCE: in the day we Mike Vining: broken. Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: We we would just d get too close to the charges, you know. We were just trying to everybody trying to be a superhero, you know, and minimum safe distance wasn't really emphasized, as I remember. Mike Vining: Yeah, I w you know, of course, you know, you do a w a large wall breaching charge, you know, I make sure I sa tell everybody, do not lean against the wall when you know when the charge goes off 'cause that ERIK LAWRENCE: no. Yeah. Mike Vining: that concussion goes right through the wall and if you're leaning through it, it will go into your body. you know, I I o ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: I when I set off a charge, I I kinda open up my my mouth and my, you know, lungs and everything. so that you know I can take the blast. I have not ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Mike Vining: been diagnosed with TBI. I've been exposed to for my time in in EOD in Vietnam I was so close to some of that stuff we'd pull the charge and then you know I'd jump jump behind a giant tree and just sit there and wait for the charge to go off, you know? And and One time I jumped behind this tree and as soon as I got behind the tree I was covered with ants. The ants were all over me, biting me and everything. Now time when you get time seems to stop and and and then it the charge finally goes off. So after that I would really inspect where I'm gonna be when the charge went off. So no that ERIK LAWRENCE: Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah, I've hid Mike Vining: That was a lesson learned. ERIK LAWRENCE: behind a couple of rocks myself. And I'm like I shouldn't do that probably. But Mike Vining: Yeah. ERIK LAWRENCE: I I appreciate your time, Sergeant Major, and you know, we covered a lot of stuff and I I love Mike Vining: Okay. ERIK LAWRENCE: how you put the word out. I mean people know you're coming from experience, you mean well, and that goes a long way for people to actually go, Hey, I need to listen 'cause we're pretty hard headed typically, as you know. Mike Vining: Well, thank you, Eric. It's been a pleasure. ERIK LAWRENCE: Yeah. Well thank you and we'll chat again soon.