Latest / New Worlder / Episode #119: Shava Cueva

Transcript

Episode #119: Shava Cueva · New Worlder

• 0:44
  This is the New Worlder Podcast,
• 0:46
  and I am one of your hosts,
• 0:47
  Nicholas Gill.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: Today we are speaking with Chava Cueva,
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: the Baja California,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: Mexico-born photographer who created the book and platform,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Bebitas de Oaxaca.
• 1:04
  The self-published book,
• 1:05
  now in its second edition,
• 1:07
  and available in English and Spanish,
• 1:10
  documents an incredible 87 traditional drinks from the eight
• 1:15
  regions of the state of Oaxaca.
• 1:17
  They are drinks made from fruits,
• 1:20
  seeds,
• 1:21
  rinds,
• 1:21
  leaves,
• 1:22
  sap,
• 1:22
  flowers,
• 1:23
  crust,
• 1:24
  and stems.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: And they're prepared,
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: raw,
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: roasted,
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: cooked,
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: fermented,
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: distilled,
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: boiled,
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: ground,
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: mixed by mortar and pestle,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: foamed,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: cold,
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: or hot.
• 1:35
  The book is filled with beautiful imagery that show the time
• 1:39
  and care Shava takes
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: when visiting these often remote rural communities,
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: and it shows the richness of these drinks,
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: which are often left out of conversations around the Oaxacan food,
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: and they are gradually disappearing.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: What's especially fascinating is that Shava has no culinary background.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: In the interview,
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: we discuss how the photographer,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: who now lives in Australia,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: first became intrigued by Oaxaca's traditional beverages.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: He had this vague idea of a project during the pandemic,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: but once he arrived in the state and started shooting,
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: he realized how substantial it could become.
• 2:20
  There were so many drinks that weren't archived anywhere,
• 2:23
  and he continues to document them.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: His website and YouTube channel continue where the books leave off,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: and the material just keeps coming.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's an endless source of inspiration for him.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: I hope more people follow his lead.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: If you haven't subscribed to my newsletter,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: just go to newworlder.com or search for New Worlder on Substack.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's free to subscribe,
• 2:46
  though paid subscribers get access to all of the content and
• 2:49
  back archives.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: Again, that's newworlder.com.
• 2:53
  Also,
• 2:54
  look for my books,
• 2:55
  such as the Latin American Cookbook,
• 2:57
  at small bookstores everywhere.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: And check out our YouTube channel.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: We have full episodes there, as well as some clips and other content.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: Just go to youtube.com slash newworlder.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: And please subscribe, like us, and share us.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: It helps us get this podcast to listen to.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: Enjoy the show.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, Shava.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: How's it going?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, good.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's a day ahead there, right?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: What's the future like?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: Good morning.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: Is the world still a mess?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in Melbourne, Australia.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Here's Friday morning.
• 3:39
  It's so sunny and it's getting hotter here because we are in
• 3:43
  the middle of spring,
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: the opposite of you.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: Compared to Latin America, what is Melbourne equal to?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: What...
• 3:52
  latitude line or longitude line would Melbourne be equal to is
• 3:58
  it like Peru yeah
• 4:01
  kind of Peru Chile maybe Argentina yeah the South America yeah
• 4:09
  alright so no I've
• 4:12
  never been to Australia how did you because you're Mexican
• 4:14
  right like how did you
• 4:15
  wind up in Australia yeah Mexican I born in Ensenada Baja
• 4:19
  California California
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: the north side of Mexico.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I got here because my wife, she's Australian.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Then we met in, yeah, we met in Oaxaca, Mexico.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: How did you meet in Oaxaca?
• 4:35
  I went to Oaxaca because I started a book about traditional
• 4:39
  beverage and she was
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: there traveling,
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: but because she loved Mexico so much,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: she decided to move there for five years.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we met in COVID.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: So you met during the research of this book that we're talking about.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty amazing.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: After I published, I published the book February 29 of the 2020.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: So two weeks before everything hit in COVID.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I published the book and she,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: my wife,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: she went to the presentation of the book to the launch of
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And she knew about me, but I didn't know about her.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, in COVID, we met through a dating app.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: But you stayed in Oaxaca through COVID?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I stayed in Oaxaca because I didn't know what to do after.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just published a book and everything got close.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a lot of time to think about it.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I just focus on
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: the advertising of the book and packaging the book.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: I did everything by myself, like all the logistic.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: I stay in Oaxaca because everyone,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: we kind of knew that it was going to be just for a few months,
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: but it took us more than a few months.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: No, like it's a beautiful book.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: I know I told you this by DM or email like a few months ago, but
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know where I first learned about it.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think it was in Oaxaca.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: I went there.
• 6:23
  Maybe it was in Oaxaca because I was there right kind of when
• 6:27
  things opened up.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: So we may have even met somehow.
• 6:33
  But yeah,
• 6:35
  I saw it and then I started following you on social media and
• 6:39
  it's really beautiful.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's really such a beautiful piece of work.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: But
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: You have no culinary background or anything like that, right?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not at all.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I am a photographer,
• 6:55
  but I was focused on advertising and taking photos of almost
• 7:02
  everything because I
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: used to work in an agency in Monterrey in Mexico.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 7:11
  I started this project because I just wanted to travel and take
• 7:14
  photos around the
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: whole country.
• 7:17
  And I was looking for a topic that can be replicated in each
• 7:24
  state of Mexico.
• 7:26
  And at first,
• 7:27
  I thought maybe tacos,
• 7:28
  because there is tacos in every state of Mexico.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: But there is so many projects about tacos.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Then I thought maybe tamales, same.
• 7:40
  I was living in Canada by then when I had the idea to focus on
• 7:45
  beverage and aguas
• 7:47
  frescas because I was living with my brother and he was
• 7:51
  preparing this agua de
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: mango.
• 7:55
  And I said,
• 7:55
  of course,
• 7:56
  there is so many aguas frescas in Mexico that I can take photos
• 8:01
  of it.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that was my first approach, like how aguas frescas or beverage can
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: be in every town or every state of Mexico.
• 8:14
  That's why I started with the project,
• 8:15
  but I don't have a culinary background at all.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was my first approach in Oaxaca.
• 8:27
  It's interesting because I don't feel you approach it like
• 8:31
  someone who comes from
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: commercial photography at all.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like, the work definitely is the complete opposite of that.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the posed, you know, kind of manufactured way of shooting food.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's very much documenting.
• 8:52
  It's very much,
• 8:54
  you know,
• 8:55
  this kind of authentic style that you don't see enough of,
• 8:59
  I think.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it's really...
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: How did it come to that?
• 9:03
  Was there a point to where you started this work shooting aguas
• 9:09
  frescas and something changed?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: it's a good question because before I started the project,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: my idea was taking photos of traditional beverage of the whole country.
• 9:25
  I thought I'm going to stay in Oaxaca for a few months,
• 9:28
  then Chiapas,
• 9:29
  Tabasco,
• 9:30
  Guerrero,
• 9:30
  and
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: and the rest of the south of Mexico.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And my idea was taking photos of the final beverage,
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: like product photography,
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  SPEAKER_01: like a final beverage in a cup,
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: in a mug,
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  SPEAKER_01: or in a jicara in a girt.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: That was my first idea,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to take photos of that,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: talking with the people who prepare the beverage,
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: having this interview.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: But the first thing
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: beverage that I take photos of, it was Tejate.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if you know about Tejate, but this is a beverage.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: In general, it's a beverage with corn, cacao, flour, and mamey seed.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to the house of the lady.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Her name is Lucrecia Ruiz.
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  SPEAKER_01: I went to her house and my mind was like, what is this?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because she had all the ingredients in the kitchen tools on the ground.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: over petates, this Mexican rug made of palm tree.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And she had all the ingredients in jicaras.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Jicaras is, in English, I think is a gourd.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a type of gourd, yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the comal was there, the metate was there, everything.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, what is this?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So many, so many
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: textures, so much color.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, okay, I didn't expect this.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I start taking photos of everything because that was a new for me.
• 11:08
  And at that moment I thought,
• 11:11
  okay,
• 11:12
  this is not gonna be a product photography book.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is gonna be about the process of the preparation of the beverage,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: the process and the ingredients and the cooking techniques.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: all the behind the bebers.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: The bebers at the end was like an excuse,
• 11:33
  but that first bebers that I take photos of it changed my whole
• 11:40
  idea of this book.
• 11:42
  So because everything was new for me,
• 11:44
  I decided to take photos of everything.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And because I didn't have a culinary background,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: I never was in front of a kitchen,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: traditional kitchen like
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: like her kitchen, that was maybe the thing that changed the project.
• 12:04
  And I started paying attention to everything,
• 12:07
  to things that people maybe take it for granted.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: For me,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: it was a completely different idea,
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: because in Ensenada,
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: in Baja California,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: in the north side of Mexico,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: we don't have that traditional techniques.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: now that you mentioned that difference between,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: seeing at your work from the photographing a product versus the process,
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I saw something you said in your webpage about visuals.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a statement.
• 12:46
  You have like four or five statements,
• 12:48
  and I want to talk about at least a couple of them.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: One is visuals should...
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: feel as real as the story behind them.
• 12:55
  And I'm wondering if that's how you approach everything now and
• 13:00
  how you manage to do that.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: maybe registering the process helps,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: but if you can explain us more what you mean,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: because I think it's a powerful statement,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: meaningful,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: but also it's a commitment,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's ambitious.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I was curious about that.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 13:25
  thank you for that question because it's the thing that changed
• 13:29
  how I see the
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: photography now.
• 13:33
  The project changed my mind in the way that when you know the
• 13:39
  process of something,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: you can value more that product or service.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know how a meal is preparing,
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: how the beverage is preparing,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know the full process,
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: where the ingredients came from,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: who is
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: making that beverage, what is the story behind?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: At least for me, I value more of that beverage.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to show that part.
• 14:04
  Like we know what the coffee tastes,
• 14:09
  but we don't know sometimes where the coffee came from.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: What is it?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: What is it behind?
• 14:16
  There is so many people in the world that they don't know that
• 14:19
  coffee came from a fruit.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: They just know that,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: we have coffee and that's it,
• 14:24
  but they don't know nothing about the coffee farms or the
• 14:28
  coffee fields and what
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: are the requirements to have a good coffee quality beans.
• 14:37
  So this project changed my mind in the way that I was going to
• 14:42
  these cacao fields,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: corn fields to see what is behind the beverage.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the beverage, it's all the ingredients that
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: the beverage required to have this quality of beverage.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: So because of that,
• 14:56
  I decide that I want to take photos of the process of the
• 15:01
  things that I'm working
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: with.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Could be a product or could be a service.
• 15:06
  I understand and I'm aware that sometimes it's hard to take
• 15:10
  photos of the process.
• 15:11
  But like you say,
• 15:13
  it's something ambitious that I wish I could do with any photo
• 15:16
  that I take.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: How did you get the list together?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: Which traditional drinks you were going to shoot?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: there's some standard ones that kind of,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: the tapaches and tehates that are kind of widely known.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: But there's so many,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: especially in Oaxaca,
• 15:40
  there's really very little written reference whatsoever about a
• 15:46
  lot of them.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: Some of them, I'm sure, are just limited to certain villages.
• 15:52
  So how did that,
• 15:53
  like,
• 15:54
  what kind of list did you go into this with and how did it
• 15:58
  change?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, before I traveled to Oaxaca, because Oaxaca was my first state
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I made a digital research just online,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: checking books,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: magazines,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: articles,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: anything related with traditional beverage around the whole country.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: So focusing on Oaxaca, I found that it was just 13 beverage by then.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I made a deep research about deep research in quotes of three months
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: searching daily.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I just found 13 beverage.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And those beverage were the most popular,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: like you said,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: like Tejate,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Fiute Pache,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Mezcal,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Pulque,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: and Chocolate de Agua,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Chocolate Atole,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Atole de Maíz,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Atole de Panela.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, 13 beverage.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I thought in a
• 17:09
  I think in a naive way saying like,
• 17:12
  okay,
• 17:13
  just Oaxaca just has 13 beverage.
• 17:16
  That's why I'm going to stay just- Start here and then move on
• 17:19
  to the rest of Mexico.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: But when I start traveling and asking for beverage to the people,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: to the locals,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: they said,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: we have these beverage in my hometown,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: which is five hours from the city.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: There is another-
• 17:38
  that they prepare just in this festivity,
• 17:42
  which is 8.5 hours from the city.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, oh my God.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And those beverages,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of them,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: they had never been registered or,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: registered or taking photos of.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: There is no approach to them because those are just in those communities.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So at first,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was hard,
• 18:08
  but then when I started sharing the photos and the articles in
• 18:11
  my blog about the
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: beverage that I had been taking photos of it,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: people started sending me a message through Facebook.
• 18:21
  And because of that,
• 18:22
  they invite me to their hometowns and I start traveling.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And as much as travel,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: as much as I know that there is more beverage,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: more than in the digital world,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if this makes sense.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's fascinating.
• 18:45
  Were there any kind of beverages you learned about but you
• 18:51
  weren't able to take a photo of?
• 18:53
  Like they just weren't accessible or the communities didn't
• 18:56
  want to share kind of the process?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: At first, no.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think I have been taking photos of
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: almost every beverage that people have been telling me about it.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because at first I didn't have like a time.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to take photos and travel.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have like, okay, I need to finish this by this time.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I didn't have a timeline.
• 19:24
  So every people who sent me a message like,
• 19:27
  hey,
• 19:27
  my grandma prepared these beverage.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: We want to be part of your project.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Would you be able to travel?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, yes, of course.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just
• 19:36
  organize my schedule and at first I was saying yes to
• 19:40
  everything but there was a
• 19:43
  point at the end of the project in the middle of 2019 I was
• 19:50
  thinking okay I have
• 19:51
  enough if I continue this I will never finish so at first I
• 19:59
  didn't have a timeline
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: but at the end of the project I needed to have a timeline so
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: I took photos of the first edition of the book has 77 beverage.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, okay, it's going to be a first edition.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know when I'm going to make another edition,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: but every beverage after this month,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: it will come to the second edition.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: So now I have two editions.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: The second edition has 87 beverage.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I just went to Oaxaca last month
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I took photos of around another 10 beverage.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So every time that people reach me out,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: we have this beverage,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: I make a list and I try to organize when to take photos of.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't registered all of them.
• 20:49
  I have on my,
• 20:52
  how do you say,
• 20:53
  like a waiting list,
• 20:54
  maybe around 15 beverage.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just Oaxaca.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Just in Oaxaca.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's insane.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's insane.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: It still blows my mind every time that I go to Oaxaca.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm surprised about a new beverage.
• 21:13
  This time I traveled to a region in the north close to Veracruz
• 21:18
  called Papaluapan
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: or La Chinantla.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually in the book.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a less...
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have less beverage from that region in compared to the others.
• 21:35
  But this time I took photos of around 10 beverage just from
• 21:39
  that area because it's
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: kind of,
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: the towns are kind of eight hours from there and are eight hours,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: but the road is not straight road.
• 21:49
  If the road is in the mountains,
• 21:51
  you need to take like two different public transfer.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to go there.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: You're going by public transport, like when you're going around?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, mostly.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Mostly.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it's because,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 22:07
  this time I traveled with public transport because these
• 22:13
  beverages are just
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: beverages focused on cacao.
• 22:17
  And these beverages are part of another book that I'm working
• 22:23
  with research.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: OK, a book on cacao.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: Can you talk?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, cacao and chocolate.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: a friend,
• 22:30
  he made all the research about cacao and chocolate origins in
• 22:34
  Mexico and South
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: America.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he invited me to take photos to his book.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a collaboration project.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: because a few of the beverage are in Oaxaca,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to use those beverage to another edition of Bebidas de Oaxaca.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And because you mentioned edition of the book,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: a new edition,
• 23:00
  have you thought about transforming the book in a digital
• 23:04
  content that you can
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: update and...
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: working in new editions of the book,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: but at the same time updating the digital content.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's kind of a headache,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 23:18
  but because you keep finding and this is my become an
• 23:24
  encyclopedia of things in
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Mexico.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: You could like have a paywall and do like a...
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: access to it.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just out there.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: If you keep updating it.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Updating it.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it could be useful in that way.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: actually,
• 23:43
  it is the best way to start sharing this information before
• 23:51
  making a new edition.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because we just launched the second edition.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: December 2023.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's hard to publish a new edition every year.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, it's not possible.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: It requires a lot of investment, a lot of money to print it.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the publisher, yeah, they aren't going to do it.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: The third edition,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I have been thinking to publish in 2028 because 2028,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: it will be the 10 years since I started the project.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: But we are in 2025.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Before 2028, the best way to share is, like you said, digital way.
• 24:35
  That's why I start sharing every beverage in the blog of Bebida
• 24:42
  de Oaxaca,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: the website,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: but it's in Spanish.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: So every second week, we publish a new beverage.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: I start publishing every week.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: It was a new beverage.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: But now, because...
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I have more things to do.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is not my main job.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: I decide,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: every two weeks,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to publish one blog with all the information,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of photos of the beverage,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: and that is free.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's in the blog.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you're keeping the blog,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: the Substack,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: and the YouTube,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: because you said you're going to get a...
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to cancel all your social media except from what?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that we know.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you said reach out to me to email or you're keeping your blog.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: YouTube is not working anymore.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 25:43
  Sometimes I start sharing more content because this cacao and
• 25:51
  chocolate book,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: they reached me out a few months ago.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I traveled last month to six different state of Mexico,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: but this project was sponsored by a few brands.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: They asked me, can you please start sharing the social media?
• 26:11
  it's so hard to get away from like I so wish I could just cut
• 26:16
  Instagram the fuck
• 26:17
  out of my life in all of these things but it's like then
• 26:21
  somehow somebody like
• 26:23
  pulls you in somewhere exactly and I was like oh man like at
• 26:30
  least yeah but at
• 26:33
  least that was my I quit social media because it was
• 26:36
  overwhelming and all this bad
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: stuff that came with it but
• 26:40
  When they said,
• 26:41
  OK,
• 26:42
  we're going to sponsor you,
• 26:44
  they traveled me to Mexico.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: They pay for everything.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: I said, OK, this makes sense.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm working.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: They are paying me to publish this.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's something.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I quit social media for almost nine months until this came.
• 27:03
  But now,
• 27:03
  because I have nine months of detox,
• 27:06
  I'm not craving to be in social media.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I share.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: because a lot of people are in Facebook and Instagram focus, no focus.
• 27:17
  Yeah,
• 27:18
  the community of Bebidas de Oaxaca is big in Facebook and now
• 27:20
  is big in Instagram.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I looking at like a tool, like it is, it's just a tool.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not spending time there.
• 27:32
  I sharing sometimes,
• 27:34
  I stopped sharing from the last Monday in Bebidas de Oaxaca.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: often.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to share maybe once a week or maybe once every two weeks.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: But my focus now is the blog and in SoftStack.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: SoftStack is more personal,
• 27:52
  but I want to make a channel just focus on Beverage of Oaxaca
• 27:58
  in English because
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: there is not information of Bebidas of Oaxaca in English.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: All the website is in Spanish.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end, I
• 28:08
  realize I'm going to use social media as a tool and putting
• 28:14
  more effort in the deep
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: content,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: which is.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: I've tried to do that too.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it's,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 28:21
  I think it's very easy to fall in the trap of putting all of
• 28:24
  your content on
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: Instagram or something.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's a lot of mistake of a lot of people.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: They just give it away to these tech companies.
• 28:32
  And then it's like,
• 28:32
  nobody ends up going to,
• 28:35
  to the deeper stuff,
• 28:36
  you know,
• 28:36
  it's just all there.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, we have to break out of that.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's awful.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: But it's possible.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think it is possible.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's becoming easier and easier to break away.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, at least less in the amount of, yeah.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you said this is a collaborative project, the one with cacao.
• 29:01
  And the other thing that I was curious about one of your
• 29:05
  statements is how
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: creativity might be a tool for care,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: connection and resistance.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell us more about that?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, creativity can be a connection with the resistance.
• 29:21
  Depends how you use it and you share your knowledge about in my
• 29:27
  case is photography.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think if I show this part of the process of the beverage,
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: how people work,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: how people live,
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: how people prepare all of this part of their ancestors,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think if I am interested,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would think if I am interested in this,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: more people can be interested.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily pushing people,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: you should change your dietary to instead of drinking Coke,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: drinking just
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: traditional beverage.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's just if I'm interested,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think sharing through my...
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if you widen the amount of information you share and the format,
• 30:13
  then you open new channels of communication and connection with
• 30:18
  what you are
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: representing or portraying.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally true.
• 30:24
  And some people are more attractive to see videos,
• 30:27
  some photos,
• 30:28
  some readings,
• 30:30
  some articles.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what
• 30:33
  yeah so that's why in the creative way it's good if you share
• 30:38
  one project to all of
• 30:40
  these uh type of formats you actually have a good mix of and
• 30:45
  and yeah that's why i
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: mean that that's creative in itself and some people do it in instagram uh
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Some are videos,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: some are pictures,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: some are,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: a little story with one picture,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: then maybe.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: So you have a mix of things and they are all intending to do the same,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: but to different,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: slightly different formats.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And they share a piece of information that it's a bit different.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this might be an example of that.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And some people might click on one because they want to see a video.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Some might read.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's the other thing.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do you,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Spanish and English,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: how do you,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: what have you thought about sharing all this precious information in,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: you're a Spanish speaker,
• 31:35
  but then you have an audience in English and alive in an
• 31:39
  English-speaking country.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do you go about that?
• 31:44
  Yeah,
• 31:44
  that's why I decide to,
• 31:47
  it's hard if I want to translate the website.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's possible.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: But because there is so many articles now and so much information,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: the translation,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: it will cost me a lot.
• 32:03
  Paying a service like Weglot or another type of translation
• 32:10
  service,
• 32:11
  it will cost me a lot.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I decided to start a blog on Substack,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: just focus on Beresha Oaxaca,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: the same information.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: that we have on the website,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: but in English,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: because more people are reaching me out in this language.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And of course it's the language that I live here in Australia.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And at first I was also doing,
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: at first,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: four years ago,
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: I started sharing the content in the two language,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: one video in English,
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: one video in Spanish,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: but that took me a while,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a lot of production.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's not the way, or at least it's not possible to do it now.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I already have all the content of the book in English.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just going to transform in Substack format.
• 33:10
  And I think this Substack community is a community who care
• 33:16
  about this type of
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: information more deeply.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's worth doing, yeah.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, yeah.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good way to connect.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we've talked about this a bit, I think.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: We've had other sub-stack writers, I guess, on here, inside of myself.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: But it's...
• 33:40
  When stories are just going to someone's inbox and they don't
• 33:46
  unsubscribe,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: they're invested in a different way than they are...
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: with a follower on Instagram.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: Even if they don't read every post, they're committed to your stories.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe not all of them, but at least some of them.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: And when they open the ones that they like, they usually read them.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: They'll read that 1,000,
• 34:17
  3,000-word story and see those photos in a way that they can't
• 34:25
  just flick up with
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Instagram or whatever.
• 34:31
  I think it changes your relationship to the reader in a way
• 34:37
  that's closer to a book.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's not exactly the same, but it's still...
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: if someone's going to buy a book or check it out from a library,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: they're,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're committed in a different way.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: And like social media,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: it's just like,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: we pick up our phone and it's just like,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: you see 5,000 stories in five minutes and you don't even realize,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:01
  five minutes later what you just looked at and just like enters
• 35:04
  your brain and it's
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: gone.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: But, but yeah, Substack or whatever else newsletter platform or,
• 35:13
  think it's it's good i'm glad it's it's it's happening and i
• 35:16
  hope it you know it
• 35:18
  finds a way to stay and expand in a way because i think people
• 35:21
  are sick of it
• 35:23
  requires a different mindset because whoever is posting on
• 35:26
  substack there is some
• 35:28
  work they have to prepare to that and a content and then as a
• 35:31
  reader or a consumer
• 35:33
  you know that you have to do the same and respond in the same
• 35:36
  way so it's a
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: different mindset yeah yeah totally fair is
• 35:42
  you mentioned is the reader is different and they have a
• 35:47
  different mindset.
• 35:49
  And this project,
• 35:52
  I have so much information like in photo,
• 35:55
  video,
• 35:56
  audio,
• 35:57
  everything.
• 35:58
  And I don't want to share in the way that people just scroll
• 36:01
  and don't care about information.
• 36:03
  That's why I want to share it more deep because these people
• 36:08
  matter and their stories matter.
• 36:12
  And I think Substack is one of,
• 36:14
  more than the book,
• 36:15
  is one platform that can bring me that.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end,
• 36:21
  it's like doing the thing that you want and you do not because
• 36:25
  you are not going to
• 36:25
  do things just following trends that in long term is going to
• 36:30
  be exhausting.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to train you because that happened to me before.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Social media trained me.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Bebidas the Oaxaca, the project, trained me just...
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was creating content just because I needed to post something.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And because of that, I lose my desire to keep with the project.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I stopped using them as well.
• 37:00
  And now in another format and in the format of the blog and the
• 37:05
  website makes me
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: happy every time that I start writing and I start sharing.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: no,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: it's like the amount of engagement,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: even though it's,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 37:17
  of course you can share a post on Instagram and a million
• 37:20
  people can see it,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: and sure that's,
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: that happens sometimes not to me,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: but some people,
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: I guess,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: but,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: but if,
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: if 500 people read a 2000 word story on Substack or a thousand words,
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: those people are really engaged.
• 37:42
  You know,
• 37:42
  they're not just clicking on it with their eyeballs for three
• 37:45
  seconds.
• 37:45
  They're spending,
• 37:46
  you know,
• 37:47
  a half hour of their life invested in these stories.
• 37:50
  And I think,
• 37:52
  you know,
• 37:52
  the people in your books,
• 37:53
  you know,
• 37:54
  they deserve that.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think you think they deserve that.
• 37:59
  How do you interact with this approach and more profound way of
• 38:07
  looking at food photography?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: What is your conversation with colleagues?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Have you found a community to discuss this or you feel by yourself?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: What is your ecosystem in that regard as a photographer?
• 38:26
  Yeah,
• 38:27
  as a photographer,
• 38:30
  I don't have so many photographers,
• 38:34
  friends who focus on
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: this type of documentary, I can mention Juan.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's an amazing photographer and he is living in Oaxaca.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we were talking last month about this also.
• 38:54
  There is so much to show and to share and to care about the
• 39:01
  people behind it.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we were talking why there is no more photographers doing this.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't know.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have the idea.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the answers,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: one of the answers that we were talking about,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: it was like,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: because people want us to earn money.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: The needs are different.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I assure you that's part of it.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:25
  So this type of cultural projects,
• 39:30
  I'm not earning money with this project.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I'm doing this because I love Oaxaca.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love the people and I love to share.
• 39:38
  And I think it's worth it to share because even if we were a
• 39:43
  few people who care
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: about this,
• 39:45
  maybe they're going to spread the word and more people is going
• 39:48
  to know about it.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: But that was our conclusion, I can say.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, because if you need to eat, you need to pay the bills.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: You focus on the things that give you more money.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, that's why.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I was talking about
• 40:08
  this kind of project with other two people they are focused on
• 40:11
  ferments so ferments
• 40:13
  is is kind of a trend but they are making a ferments in not
• 40:20
  kombucha not nothing
• 40:21
  commercial ferments like a asian ferments and mexican ferments
• 40:28
  and this guy said we
• 40:30
  are just a few he said this in in spanish freakies freakies is
• 40:36
  freak i'm not sure
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: if you
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: if the translation is correct in English.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: But he said, we are just a few freaks who focus on this niche.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to be OK with it.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we don't need thousands of people reach out for this.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe just the people who care about this is OK.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when you have that mindset,
• 40:57
  like sharing the things because you love it instead of sharing
• 41:00
  because you want to
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: people pay you or
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: going to a different mindset as you, I think that can block us.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: But there has to be,
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with the two of you and I mean,
• 41:23
  that happens to me with my work too as a freelancer and
• 41:28
  everything that you have to
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: do to make it work.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: But somehow, I'm sure some photographers enjoy
• 41:37
  this commercial photography and that happily pays the bills but
• 41:41
  at the same time I
• 41:43
  can't see many people that haven't found that strong connection
• 41:48
  with something that
• 41:50
  once you find it you cannot help not doing it and you find the
• 41:55
  ways as you did and
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: as Nick does and as I do so
• 42:01
  There is something missing that it's not only,
• 42:03
  you know,
• 42:04
  oh,
• 42:04
  they have to pay the bills.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow that passion or that something that is just like this bug,
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: it's not there for whatever the reason,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, but no.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, yeah, totally understand.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: When the passion is there,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to do everything possible to keep doing,
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: like no matter what.
• 42:31
  And that's,
• 42:32
  yeah,
• 42:33
  I think that is the reason that I'm looking at this project
• 42:37
  like long-term.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:40
  Like be trying to find a way to make it profitable because- So
• 42:47
  that you can spend
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: more and more time.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: of course you have the passion and you have the love,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: but at the same time,
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: the project is not profitable if no one pay or buy the book
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Even the website, like we need to pay the website and everything.
• 43:06
  So I think I'm on the way,
• 43:10
  on the path to find this long-term key,
• 43:18
  maybe,
• 43:20
  to make it possible.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, it's a challenge with any passion project, I think.
• 43:31
  It's like how much do you need to sacrifice to get to the point
• 43:35
  to make it profitable?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: like I think years,
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: but if we focus on how long it will take us,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think that could be an obstacle to stop doing it.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had that mindset before and now my mindset is like,
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: and just sharing and more people is gonna see the project.
• 44:06
  And that happened with you,
• 44:08
  with your project,
• 44:09
  with New World,
• 44:10
  that happened.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know how we connect.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember how we connect.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think I sent you a message or email.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but I may have posted something somewhere about your...
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the key is being consistent, no matter what.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not talking from a privileged state.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just working part-time, and I'm trying to have more work every day.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: I dedicate 90 minutes every day,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: no matter what,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: 90 minutes to this project.
• 44:56
  that's in long term 90 minutes every day long term is a lot
• 45:00
  that's why you start
• 45:02
  building something like of course the idea is having more job
• 45:08
  having more income
• 45:09
  but that is not an obstacle to work 90 minutes per day in
• 45:15
  something that you're
• 45:15
  passionate about it that doesn't give you any money I read
• 45:22
  somewhere or maybe it
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: was another interview that I heard you on
• 45:26
  that Rafa Meyer from Fundación Tortilla was an influence on how
• 45:33
  you shared what you
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_03: were documenting.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: How exactly was that?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: I know Rafa and he's a brilliant guy.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm super curious because I think he's really co-found.
• 45:47
  Yeah,
• 45:47
  Rafa,
• 45:48
  he actually,
• 45:49
  he made a prologue of the second edition of my book.
• 45:55
  and he's an amazing guy I met Rafa 2018 so the first during the
• 46:04
  six first months
• 46:06
  that I have been in Oaxaca and I met Rafa in one corn activity
• 46:15
  of course in Oaxaca
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: He started talking about corn and how corn is important and about beans.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, of course, this is the way to share.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: He shared with me what is Fundación de Tortilla de Maíz Mexicana.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know about it by then.
• 46:40
  And I started looking at his blog,
• 46:43
  his website,
• 46:43
  and I was,
• 46:44
  I want that for Bebidas de Oaxaca.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I wasn't aware, I mean, I wasn't sure what I want.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: I just saw the website and I thought,
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want that,
• 46:54
  but I wasn't sure what because they have so much information
• 46:57
  about everything.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just one topic.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's beans,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: legumes,
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: corn,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: different projects,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: now books,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: articles,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: so much information,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: important.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I just have that on my mind.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a talk actually with him one year ago
• 47:21
  december no it was december 2024 yeah less than a year before i
• 47:28
  i took baby as a
• 47:30
  oaxaca project again because i paused it i paused for a few
• 47:34
  months and i was
• 47:36
  talking with him like i'm tired i'm burned out i don't want to
• 47:39
  do anything related
• 47:40
  with bebidas and he started sharing with me like how hard is
• 47:45
  having a non-profit
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: organization and how hard is
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: doing this for years.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, but we are doing this because we love it no matter what.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we start sharing, and more people is taking care about this.
• 48:00
  And I see him like a mentor when I want to burn this project,
• 48:12
  when I want to pause this project.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: I see him like a mentor because he has been doing this for so many years.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: And in the way that he shared,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: he obviously has a team,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: but he said,
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have a team at the beginning.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: I started doing this by myself.
• 48:33
  And at the beginning,
• 48:36
  Fundación de Tortilla,
• 48:38
  it wasn't a non-profit organization.
• 48:40
  Now they have sponsors,
• 48:42
  now they have an income who paid for the team,
• 48:47
  but
• 48:48
  Having this on my mind,
• 48:49
  it was like,
• 48:49
  yeah,
• 48:50
  of course,
• 48:50
  he has more years than me doing this.
• 48:53
  And compared with him or compared with another nonprofit,
• 49:00
  it wasn't making me any good.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I started looking at the project in a different way,
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: like just sharing step by step.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, just 90 minutes per day until the project could be bigger.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if this makes
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: sense and answer your questions.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I see Rafa project like inspiration for Bebidas of Oaxaca.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, it's amazing what he's accomplished.
• 49:34
  I think he's changed the conversation about land-raised corn in
• 49:39
  Mexico and around the world.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't imagine it was easy.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: He said something to me once that I think about all the time.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: that,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: preserving corn or whatever heirloom ingredient or,
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: thing,
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_03: it's expensive.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: And like,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of people don't understand that,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: that it requires so,
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: it's not just leave it alone in these things,
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: these ancestral,
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_03: whether it's drinks or ingredients are just gonna survive.
• 50:16
  but there's so much work that needs to be done and it takes a
• 50:20
  lot of money to keep
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: them alive,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 50:24
  because there's so many outside forces that are there to just
• 50:29
  wipe them out.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: But, but it takes a lot of work.
• 50:33
  It takes a lot of people and a lot of people to come together
• 50:36
  to keep these things going.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think, uh,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: hard work requires time.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said,
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: outsource forces is going to push you to go to the easy way,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: like drinking a soda instead of drinking a beverage.
• 51:03
  Because there is no comparison between going to the store and
• 51:08
  buying a soda and
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: drink it and prepare all of these beverages,
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: all the things behind
• 51:13
  preparation and the knowledge that you need to make them there
• 51:16
  is no comparison of
• 51:19
  course we we want to go to the easy way but what is the main
• 51:22
  purpose of sharing
• 51:23
  this and what is the positive and negative impact that has
• 51:33
  drink this or the other
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: drink and eat this or eat the other thing or having um
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: the original corn or having the corn that has been genetically modified.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: What is the positive and the negative impact?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: And even the positive and the negative impact,
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: we are not going to be able to see it in this life,
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: but maybe in the life that came after us.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: And at least for me is the way that I'm looking
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: at this.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want that this disappears.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: But also, it's not on me to decide that.
• 52:20
  It's only on me to share the thing that I'm looking at and
• 52:24
  share the things that I
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: already take photos of.
• 52:27
  And if that helps,
• 52:28
  and our people are focused on this type of project,
• 52:33
  that is a win.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Same with Rafa.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: He's doing this not for
• 52:41
  him because he is not going to be able to see the positive
• 52:45
  impact of his project
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: until the generations after.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: no,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's easy to kind of lose hope,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: especially with a project like his where you see,
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: most of the tortillas in Mexico now made from,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: not being from non-nixtamolized corn,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_03: from corn that's,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: very commercial.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: But then you also see all this.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: Then you see all these really bright spots of hope,
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_03: all this resurgence of Erlen Korn also happening,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_03: which I think he is seeing in his lifetime now.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's happening in a big way.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so many things.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I don't know.
• 53:33
  I think that's kind of what we all in this little room here are
• 53:38
  aspiring to in one
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: way or another.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's a slow process, like decades process.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: That might take away some of the anxiety or frustration.
• 53:57
  Yeah,
• 54:00
  because we live in a time that we want everything faster and we
• 54:09
  want
• 54:11
  immediately reactions yeah but good things takes time same as a
• 54:18
  tree we are getting
• 54:21
  old too that means we are getting old too hopefully wiser yeah
• 54:27
  yeah I think like
• 54:28
  every day is a lesson so we learn something new every day no
• 54:32
  matter what it could
• 54:33
  be something through a bad experience but at the end everything
• 54:38
  is a lesson and
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes,
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: I started changing my mindset a few months ago because I was like,
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: what is the point of doing this if no one cares?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm not receiving money and I'm putting time and I'm losing money,
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: actually,
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: what is the point?
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at the negative, of course, you're going to find it.
• 55:04
  But if you look at the positive,
• 55:05
  at the same time,
• 55:06
  you're going to find it.
• 55:09
  Do you have similar projects in Australia or in Europe or
• 55:13
  somewhere else that is,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: that maybe don't require so much traveling or logistics?
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, I wish I have, but no.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm working just on Bebidas of Oaxaca.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just on.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's...
• 55:39
  long distance,
• 55:40
  because I go there,
• 55:42
  take photos,
• 55:43
  and I come back and I process all the content.
• 55:47
  But I wish I could be taking photos of more projects like that,
• 55:54
  at least here in Australia.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: And very interesting now in tea and coffee,
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: because tea culture here in Australia is growing,
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: especially because we have a big
• 56:09
  Asian influence from China and also coffee culture here is
• 56:15
  insane,
• 56:16
  especially in Melbourne.
• 56:18
  So I wish I could have more projects related with drinks here
• 56:24
  because now I have a
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: part-time job that I'm going now and that is not related.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not related at all about the things that I care and my passion
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: And like we said, something has to pay the bills.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: Do you find being away from Mexico,
• 56:47
  being away from Oaxaca useful at all when you're putting this
• 56:55
  project together in
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: the sense that you can step away a little bit of it?
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I know, I'm sure when you're there, it's probably like when
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_03: the same way that I travel at this point that it's,
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: it's on your last trip,
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure it was just like nonstop research,
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: like not,
• 57:16
  not even breathing and just like nonstop traveling around and
• 57:20
  like exhaustion and
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: in,
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: and researching as much as you can,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_03: but is it good in a way,
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_03: whether,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: whether it's from Ensenada or Melbourne or,
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_03: to kind of be separated from that at all.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, totally it is.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can,
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: when we live in a place for a long period of time,
• 57:51
  we take it for granted so many things because we can see those
• 57:56
  things daily.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: And when you have,
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: when you don't have those things daily,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: you can see,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: they don't know about this here.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure what is the saying,
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: but it's something like this,
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: the saying,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: you can't see the label if you are inside of the bottle or in the jar,
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: something like that.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: So when you are away from that, you can have a different perspective.
• 58:21
  And living here in Australia gave me this perspective in a way
• 58:25
  that I want to have
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: a project that connect Oaxaca with Australia that I,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: this time that I travel,
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: focus on cacao and chocolate.
• 58:38
  I brought so many of those products here to make something new
• 58:44
  related with
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: beverage,
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: because there is nothing like that here.
• 58:49
  And at the same time,
• 58:50
  there is nothing about that in the north side of Mexico.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's on the south side, but in the north side, there is nothing.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, it gave me another perspective to share
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: and to not take it for granted because people who lives in Oaxaca,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: they of course know about Tejate.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: And when you live there,
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know about Tejate,
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: but outside of Oaxaca,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: no one knows about Tejate unless that you are making a research.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's,
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: at the same time,
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: gave me the,
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: I can say the,
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: not inspiration,
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: maybe the fuel to keep sharing,
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: to be aware like,
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: There is not many people who know about this.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: And because of that, I will share more and more and more.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I changed the perspective totally.
• 59:43
  Now living here in Australia after being for one month in
• 59:49
  Mexico,
• 59:50
  it's totally different worlds.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that happens to any other countries.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: Totally different worlds.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, in a way, give me a purpose to keep sharing.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_03: Julie, same question for you.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_03: Does living in the U.S.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_03: affect how you think about Colombia?
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I am originally from Colombia, so I think so.
• 1:00:19
  I have thought about it,
• 1:00:21
  and I think there was a point in my career in which
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: personally,
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was satisfied enough,
• 1:00:28
  but also I think I did everything I could from my niche work
• 1:00:33
  and career in
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: Colombia.
• 1:00:35
  So I went to different stages and spaces to work,
• 1:00:40
  and I felt satisfied with that.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point,
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: when I got my work visa and all that,
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: and my son got a scholarship here,
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: all that happened.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: I realized that I was more helpful from here too,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: because first I can bring knowledge here that might be useful to share,
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: but also whatever I see happening in Colombia and South America,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: I look at it with a different perspective.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I know there are valuable people working on that there.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just diverse the way in which we work on these things.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: And this might be my way of contributing.
• 1:01:31
  So yeah,
• 1:01:32
  I definitely,
• 1:01:33
  and you know,
• 1:01:35
  at some point I thought I was repeating myself.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I already said this.
• 1:01:43
  I need to just either say it in a different way or say it in a
• 1:01:47
  different place or
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: say a different thing.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: So all the three of those things.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yes,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: every time that I go is very,
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: very interesting because I listen to people,
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: I get information,
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: I get updates,
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: and it's fascinating just how,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: from outside and then,
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: what can I do with this or not?
• 1:02:10
  Apart from same,
• 1:02:11
  you know,
• 1:02:12
  how do I pay the bills,
• 1:02:13
  all these things that keep me busy too.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: personally,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: it's also important to educate yourself in new ways and learn new skills.
• 1:02:25
  I think if you stay in the same place for too long,
• 1:02:28
  you tend to not do that.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: So for me,
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: that was important too,
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: as we have discussed,
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_00: Nick,
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: when I have my existential questions,
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: you remind me of that.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think we...
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think if we had,
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: if we haven't moved here to Australia,
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: maybe we wouldn't be talking now,
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: like in another language.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that,
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: that I think is important to mention also,
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: even if it's the same information in a different language,
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: we can reach more people and that is useful.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_03: I agree.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this sounds very important and existential.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like we could go down a rabbit hole here.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's no getting out of.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, it's Shava or Shava?
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do you pronounce it?
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: Shava.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: Shava, yeah.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: Shava, like Shaggy.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Shava.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where is your name coming from?
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: My original name is Salvadora.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, is Shava a nickname for Salvador?
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: Shava is a nickname for Salvador in Mexico,
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: but with C.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: But because I am from Ensenada,
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: people pronounce the C-H with like S-H.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is Shava because the pronunciation changed.
• 1:04:06
  yeah that's that's why it's interesting okay i had no idea well
• 1:04:11
  it sounds even
• 1:04:12
  indian or yeah someone in the middle east so yeah yeah yeah all
• 1:04:18
  right man it was it
• 1:04:19
  was a real pleasure yeah likewise keep doing what you're doing
• 1:04:24
  i like i'll keep
• 1:04:25
  sharing it when i can because it's like i'm a fan so yeah no
• 1:04:29
  same same same i
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: really like the thing that you are posting a new worlder i
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: want to have more time to read all of them.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: So many interesting topics.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly,
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: it's an honor to be here with you,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: talking with you,
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: with people who care about this food industry in a different way.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you so much for this.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, everyone, for listening.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_03: That was Chava Cueva.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_03: Check out his platform, Bebitas de Oaxaca, at bebitasdeoaxaca.com.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: You can order the book there.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's beautiful.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: There's other editions.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_03: There's also a digital edition.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's in English.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's also in Spanish.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's a really beautiful book about the traditional drinks of Oaxaca.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a big fan of his work, so I'm glad he was able to come on.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks everyone for listening.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_03: Check us out on Substack.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_03: Just go to newworlder.com and please subscribe.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_03: And please, if you like this episode, just share it.
• 1:05:37
  It's so fucking easy just to share something or like something
• 1:05:42
  and it makes such a
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_03: big difference.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_03: So please, do it.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks to my friend Pat Buzzard for providing the music to the show.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_03: See everyone in a couple of weeks.