Latest / The SEANC View / Understaffed and Undervalued: Inside North Carolina's Corrections Crisis

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Understaffed and Undervalued: Inside North Carolina's Corrections Crisis · The SEANC View

0:00
Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the Scenic View podcast.
0:03
I'm your host Jonathan Owens along with Artis Watkins, Suzanne Beasley and Sammy Klein.
0:09
It's board week at Scenic so we don't have much time to waste. Let's get to it.
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All right. As I said, this week we have our quarterly board meetings for the
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Board of Governors, who are the member leaders of Scenic.
0:33
And they come from all over the state, and they converge on Raleigh for three days of fun.
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And by fun, he means meeting and talking policy.
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To be clear, so that nobody thinks everybody's coming and, like,
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snacks and box lunches and playing bingo.
0:50
And lots of speeches and business. But we were able to trick one of our officers
0:57
into coming into the makeshift podcast studio this week.
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Scenic First Vice President Emily Jones is in the house today.
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You, the crowd. We can splice one in there.
1:10
We do want to ask you some questions about, you know, some issues that you really
1:14
care about, you're passionate about.
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But we also just want you to be part of the show and chime in whenever you hear
1:20
something you want to talk about.
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And if you don't, it's fine, too. We're excited to have you.
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And I guess first off, let's just tell a little bit about yourself before we jump in.
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Well, I'm glad to be here. As you stated, my name is Emily Jones,
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and I'm your first vice president of the association.
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I started out as the treasurer and then became the second vice president, so now I'm first vice.
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I'm a 30-year retiree of the state. I started my career at Central Prison back in the 90s.
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I'm not going to say which 90 it was, but I worked there for 10 years as an
1:53
officer and as a sergeant, And then I transferred over to Wake County Probation
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and Parole, where I did the rest of my 30 years,
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first as a surveillance officer, and then as a PPO.
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And I retired as a mental health probation officer, which was very rewarding
2:08
and challenging at the same time.
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And so I was volunteering for Scenic way back then for many years before I retired.
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So when I did retire, it gave me more time to dedicate to Scenic because I do
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believe in the association.
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So I'm glad to be here with you all and do my small part. Awesome.
2:26
Yeah, she always acts like she's nervous at the start of things. I am.
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She's like better than we are. I am. Come on. So nervous. Some of y'all may have met Emily before.
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She literally is from one end of the state to the other with our member reps oftentimes.
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So some of you guys may have met her. Maybe so. If I met you, hey, y'all, hey.
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I'll say when I first started here, I thought you were staff.
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Oh, well, because you were at so many events and I saw you all the time.
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I feel like staff sometimes.
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I just mesh in there. It's all good. Thank you. I take that as a compliment.
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Well, like I said, we'll ask you some pressing questions later.
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But first, I guess we'll just dive into some of our topics. And first off, I want to talk about...
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Our exciting trend, you guys. Tell us, John.
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I've noticed that our views and downloads are going up tremendously,
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it seems like, the last two or three weeks.
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The episode with the Retirement System Executive Director, Sam Watts,
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is our most downloaded show ever.
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I think that our retirees really like that show. It was very informative for them.
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And then last week, we had DAC Secretary, or Department of Adult Correction
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Secretary, Leslie Cooley Dismukes. I always mess that up too, right, Artis?
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You got on to me for saying it. You're saying for a fact.
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This Mux. This Mux. This Mux. This Mux.
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And her episode had really high numbers last week, and it's still going up.
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So we're very excited about that.
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And one thing I would suggest is if you're listening to this,
3:53
please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
3:56
Because that way you're the first person to get our episode when it uploads.
4:00
Yeah, and we hope y'all will listen. We ran into one of our members who's coming
4:04
to town for the meeting just a little while ago, and he and his wife said they
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spent the last three hours listening to podcasts catching up.
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That's, oh my, that poor man.
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Poor woman, I guess. Actually, you know what?
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They had a good couple of podcasts there with Sam Watts and with Secretary Dismukes.
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They had a very information-intensive one to pick as opposed to us babbling
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about what song we like best. So let's talk about the interview with the secretary
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last week. I thought it was really interesting.
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And I mean, sometimes you interview folks who may be like a secretary or something,
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and they hold back their words on some issues.
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But she came out guns blazing on a few things, especially the lapse salary.
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I thought it was interesting that the lapse salary question.
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She pointed out that they pretty much have to use that to supplement their budget
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because they're not given enough money from the state for the budget, right?
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There's two ways state government is underfunded. The agencies themselves are
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clearly under... When you're having to use lapse salary to pay routine bills, you're underfunded.
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And when you have...
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Number of state employees overall, that's the same as it was practically 20
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years ago in state government to serve 2 million more people than 20 years ago,
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you're underfunding that too.
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What do you do? You got to pay the power bill, but you also have to staff to
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where somebody's not going to get killed. Yeah, absolutely.
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And power company ain't going to wait, but, you know.
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I love the part where you were like, you know, legislators ask us all the time,
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what can we do besides money?
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And you're like, well, what would the power company want besides money? You know? Right. Yeah.
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Because I mean, while agencies can do things to show more respect to employees, at the end of the day,
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again, yeah, you can't pay the grocery store with respect or with a bench outside
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or something like that to take your break on.
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You have to have the money And everything's gone up.
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And I don't know why. The legislature seems to understand that about everything
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else except for state employees and retirees.
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Like their stuff didn't go up. Like they're living in some kind of bubble.
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It's ridiculous. And ridiculous is the word I use when I don't want to use a
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word I can't use on this thing.
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I'm kind of curious to know what Suzanne's opinion was on the episode because
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she was at the General Assembly and was not able to attend that recording. I was.
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Auditor Bolick presented his lap salary report to the House Government Efficiency
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Committee. So I was there for that day and didn't get to join you guys for the podcast.
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But good podcast. I was in committee when Secretary Dismukes spoke to the J-LOC,
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the Joint Legislative Oversight Committee on Justice and Public Safety.
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And I mean, the fire that you guys heard in her voice last week,
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she had that same energy when she was speaking to the legislature.
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I mean, these are issues that they've been there. They're not going anywhere.
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And if we don't address them, and she told them this, she said,
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it's not if something happens, it's when something happens.
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We don't want a repeat of 2017. Two years ago, when we were trying to get agency
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heads to agree to do a press conference on the dire amount of staff vacancies
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across state government and how it affects taxpayers and even the public safety.
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We had a hard time getting some to come forward, even though they would talk
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about it privately. They wouldn't come forward.
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What I'm seeing now is agency head after eight.
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We finally crossed that threshold to where it is so far beyond doable for these agencies. They know it.
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They know they've got a mess with trying to serve the public,
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that they can't serve them the right way, and that somebody's going to get hurt,
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whether it's an employee or the public. Yeah.
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Look, I'm still so disturbed over our interview with Billy Lasseter,
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Deputy Secretary Billy Lasseter.
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And he was talking about having to use LAP salaries to hire temporary people
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to meet federal and state mandates.
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So they've given him things. In juvenile justice facilities.
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In juvenile justice, yeah. They've given him things he has to do, but no money. Right.
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Yeah. And then positions in his facilities require a four-year degree starting salary is $37,000.
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I mean. And the juvenile. Wow. Yeah, children. So, Emily, you're out in the field.
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What are you hearing in terms of from employees about the fact that we still
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don't have a budget and the fact that their agencies don't have what they need to offer?
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Well, of course, they're frustrated because there has not been a budget passed.
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They're looking for back the blue to get an increase. And even that is troublesome
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because the newer supervisory staff are going to get more than the existing tenured.
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Supervisors are going to get. So that's been chatter. But it's very hard for
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them to do the work that they need to do because of morale, mostly.
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Because they want the additional pay.
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They're being stretched thin, especially in the prison system.
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Someone was speaking yesterday saying that they were running the prison,
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even though it's a small prison with like four people.
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And that is horrendous. But what do you do? You have,
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People that don't want to come to work or you have positions that you need to fill.
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So to hear that they want to take these positions to balance their budget,
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that puts them in an even worse spot.
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So morale right now is it's pretty bad within the prison system and somewhat
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with probation and parole also because their caseloads are so high.
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Some of them are. And stress level is high. These people need some relief.
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And it's so dangerous. You've done both jobs. Yes.
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It's potentially very dangerous, especially whenever you're so understaffed,
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because at any given time, those inmates or the juveniles inside the facilities,
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they could take over the place.
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And so you're there and you're trying to be vigilant about doing your checks,
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about how you handle yourself in difficult situations. You have to always be
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aware of your surroundings so that you can diffuse situations.
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Before they get out of hand. And that's just for in and of itself.
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And then you're doing it by yourself and you don't know if your relief is coming in.
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So I'm just hearing that people are frustrated, but they do want to do the work
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that they're paid to do, but they want to get paid at a better rate.
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And they want to be respected more as well so that they're not at work for the
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majority of their day and then go home and they can't give their families what
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they need when they get there and take care of themselves too.
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Yeah, it's not physically sustainable. I mean, it's affecting people's health.
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Not over a long period of time. No.
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In a profession where, I mean, correctional officers, the average lifespan is 59. Yes, 59.
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59, y'all. So this may be a personal question.
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You can say no, but you did mention that you had worked at Central Prison before
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moving on, moving to probation and parole.
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Was that part of the reason why you made the change? I mean,
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was vacancy a problem back then?
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No, not necessarily. We had plenty of staff. You could go into our lineup and the room was full.
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And people's mindsets were very different back then.
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You had camaraderie. You depended on your fellow officers and you could depend
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on your supervisory staff.
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Everybody worked together so that you could get the common goal done.
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So everybody that came to work that day went home that day. And,
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of course, at Central Prison, because it's a maximum security prison,
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you had the worst of the worst there.
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And so it was very important to have a cohesive staff so that everybody was protected.
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So it was not like it is now. We have plenty of staff.
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But the reason that I left Central Prison was just to broaden my career.
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So, yeah, nothing to do with staff. And I loved my time there,
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but I knew it was time to do something different.
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So when you left and you took on probation, parole responsibilities,
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I mean, how scary is it to pull up somebody's hat?
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I would think that would be so scary because shaking in my boots.
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No, you don't know. I can remember whenever I left in 2005 and I went in to talk to the warden.
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He was saying, are you sure that's
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what you want to do? Because I was a sergeant on the death row unit.
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And he says, well, you know, you got to be going to people's houses and you're
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going to you don't know what's in there and you got to go out at night.
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And I said, I know. And you know, I'm a little person, so I'm saying I'm just—
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That's what I was going to say. If you saw Emily—,
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I mean, she's tiny, but my money's on her. Hey, I got a good talk game.
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That's what I was told by my sergeant. She said, you might not be able to fight,
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but you got a good talk game.
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But I was just needing that change. And so it is dangerous. You don't know what you're walking into.
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Whereas different in the prison, you can kind of control what people have, kind of control.
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But inside of their homes or their workplaces, the different places we have
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to go, yeah, it can be quite difficult and it can be very dangerous.
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I could not do that. That's intense. Well, it is intense.
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But if you have a good circle of co-workers that can teach you and that you
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are willing to listen to and learn from, it can be a very rewarding situation also.
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And I had that. I had some excellent co-workers that helped me along.
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So then I, of course, in return, helped the ones that came in after me.
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So you said when you left the prison, the warden was like, are you sure you
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want to do that? But do you think it's changed now to where if someone went
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from probation and parole to prisons, their supervisor would be like,
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are you sure you want to go into that?
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If I had to guess, I would say that going from probation over to the prison,
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they definitely, definitely would say, are you sure you want to do that?
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Really? Yes, because even though we're dealing with the same types of people,
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and in a lot of instances, these same people, with probation,
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you have the freedom to adjust your schedule.
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You're out in the community. You're driving to people's homes.
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You're going to check on them.
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You're wearing a bunch of different hats and services for your offenders.
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But when you're at the prison, you're locked in.
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Now it's 12 hours. When I was there, it was eight.
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12 hours, you're locked in. You don't have contact with anyone unless you're
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calling them on the landline phone.
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So you're kind of going backwards if you go from the probation office into the prison system.
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And you have a lot less support than you did when you were there,
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right? A lot less co-workers.
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At the prison? Yeah. Yes, a whole lot less co-workers because the staffing is
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so short. And you got a gun if you're probation parole.
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Yes, ma'am. Well, you have one too at the prison if you're on the tower.
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Right, but if you're just in there. Right. You don't. You do not have a gun.
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You may have a baton, if they still call it that. I don't know.
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Still call it a baton. Probably. It is in TV shows.
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Yeah. But there's so many things that could go wrong if correctional officers
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were carrying weapons like that. Oh, definitely.
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Absolutely. Because it can get in the hands of the wrong folks.
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Well, we know firsthand from what happened in 2017, 16, 17, that it was they
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can use anything for a weapon.
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Anything. We don't want to give them anything. To make it easier.
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That's not to discredit anybody from going from probation to the prison.
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Because like I said, my prison time was good. And it was a great learning experience
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for me being a young adult. I grew up at the prison for those 10 years.
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But just thinking about the mindset, that mindset would still be the same.
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Are you sure that that's what you want to do?
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You mentioned that the mindset was more cohesive in working as a team back then.
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Has the mindset with that shifted because it's about the money,
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but you said that it was more cohesive and,
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team oriented. Right. It was more cohesive and team oriented back then because
16:05
you had the number of staff that you needed.
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And they were, how can I put this?
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Generational changes have made a difference.
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Because speaking for myself, I was the young person back then.
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When I went into the prison system, I was ready to listen and I was ready to learn.
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But a lot of times now, nothing against the younger folks, sometimes you can't tell them nothing.
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And so they want to go in already knowing the process. Or they want to know,
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well, why is it done this way?
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Well, it's done this way because historically it has worked inside the prison system.
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Historically it has worked for DHHS or for probation and parole.
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This is the way we do it. But sometimes they think that they know the better
16:45
way or it could be done in a different way.
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I mean, I definitely thought when I went into the workforce that I knew better than everybody else.
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But I wasn't at a prison where something really bad could happen because of that.
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And I kind of think the reason money has become more of the issue,
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because people weren't paid enough back in the day either, but they had less
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danger than it is now because of the staffing and because of the equipment. Yes, that's a big part.
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And because, like you said, yeah, the folks you're dealing with have changed, too. Oh, definitely.
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Definitely. So I would hope that now I don't work at the prison anymore,
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of course, but I would hope that they are becoming more cohesive.
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You know, whenever you are dealing with the question, OK, if I take this action
17:31
against this prisoner, what's going to be the repercussion?
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So you're thinking about, OK, I think this is what I should do,
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but it may be wrong. And what if I'm sued?
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What if I'm? And so while you're thinking this, instead of taking your action,
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you're worried about the backlash of what you do because of different standards,
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which we held to those standards back then as well.
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But because we were able to collectively lean on each other,
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we knew that the decisions that we made were sound decisions.
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But now you have younger folks working in the system.
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You have less experienced people. So they're having to think about those things.
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Those two seconds that you use to think about what if, what if,
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that could mean life or death.
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Yeah, the pressure is different. The pressure is different. And the experience is not there.
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And because some people don't want to listen and learn.
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They're doubtful about their own decisions within the prison system and probation, wherever.
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So you got to be confident in the decisions that you make whenever you're in
18:30
those types of situations.
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So let's talk about community supervision, because I don't think we've talked
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a lot about it on this podcast. We've talked about prisons quite a bit,
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but I want to learn a little more about that job.
18:42
When did you retire? I retired in 2022.
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Okay, so you're not far removed from it. No, but it's flown by. Time is flown.
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Time flies when you're having fun, right? It does. So, Secretary Dismukes said
18:56
that the vacancy crisis hasn't hit that department as bad as prisons.
19:01
Was that your experience, too?
19:02
Well, just from going into the different probation offices across the state,
19:06
it has not hit them as bad. It's hit them, but not as bad. Okay.
19:11
So, they're able to function and get things done. And she pointed to,
19:16
I guess, the, was it law enforcement benefits?
19:19
Well, yeah. And Emily, you know, you were a big part of the grassroots lobbying
19:24
to get those full law enforcement benefits for folks in community corrections.
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We're still struggling to get them.
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I think mainly because of the numbers of people we're talking about who work in prisons.
19:35
But I think that probably did help all your efforts and the efforts of other
19:40
people that helped. I think that hopefully made a difference.
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But that's exactly the kind of thing you have to do. If the danger is higher,
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you have to have something to make people want to do it.
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You really do, because people don't want to work in their prisons because it's so stringent.
19:54
The money could be nice and the overtime is pitiful, but people are scared to go in there and work.
20:01
Well, we talk about the correctional officers who have said...
20:04
You know, the offenders will tell us, you're only going home today because we're
20:10
letting you go. Oh, we hear that all the time.
20:14
Not a little bit. We shared it with the secretary.
20:17
That's apparently not uncommon. Yeah. And they could, honestly.
20:20
Well, I was going to say, it's true.
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And I feel like it's kind of been true for a long time. I can't remember years
20:26
ago when I was a baby lobbyist.
20:29
But we went toward Central Prison. So what year was it? It was around 2008.
20:35
Okay. All right. Yeah. So that was an experience for sure.
20:40
I'm sure it was. And whenever I started and I did, I had to go through the tunnel
20:44
to get to wherefore I was doing my interview or whatever.
20:48
Inmates were lined up both sides of the tunnel. And so I was thinking by 2008, maybe that had ended.
20:54
Nope. Because they locked it down after a while.
20:57
They had a new rule that they had to be locked down during certain hours.
21:00
But yeah, that was scary. But I was like, I got to do it. It was a very thorough tour.
21:06
I remember visiting the gym and they were playing basketball.
21:12
But there was that feeling there that, you know, there's one officer and then
21:17
there's the officer with us. Yeah.
21:19
And it was definitely that feeling of what would happen. I mean,
21:22
it just takes someone with some special grit to be able to do that.
21:25
It really does. You have to respect the officers, the correctional officers
21:29
and the sergeants and lieutenants and the captains and the wardens for doing it and anybody else.
21:35
You got program staff, chaplains, people that work in the kitchen,
21:39
kitchen staff, they have mad respect because everybody can't do that.
21:44
So, Secretary Dismukes talked about the safety package that they had recently
21:50
finished implementing.
21:52
Are things like that important for probation and parole officers?
21:56
I mean, because I think this included body cams, too, now that y'all didn't have.
22:01
No, we didn't have body cams back then, back in the day.
22:06
Well, of course, yeah, all of that's very important because you just never know
22:11
what you're walking into.
22:12
No matter how many people you have with you, you just don't know.
22:15
You're just glad to have a little bit of backup.
22:17
Emily, sometimes, you know, I know President Powell came in here and gave us,
22:20
we asked him what are the craziest stories out of prisons that you've got.
22:24
So we'll ask you on the probation parole side, what's the craziest thing that
22:28
ever happened to you? Give us a good story. The craziest thing?
22:31
Or scariest story. The scariest thing that just really stands out to you.
22:35
Well, I'll just mention this one because a lot of times whenever I'm talking
22:38
to people, well, my kids, for one, when I told them about something that happened
22:41
to me, I really didn't have a lot of harmful or potentially harmful things happen
22:47
to me. I was blessed in that way. Lord, thank you.
22:49
But there was a particular inmate that I had words with one day.
22:55
And I was just telling him something that he needed to be doing or somewhere
22:58
he needed to be. I don't remember. He was a really high gang member.
23:02
And so, but I always tell people whenever you're working in the prison,
23:08
say what you mean and mean what you say.
23:11
And if you always carry yourself in the same manner, inmates will never have
23:17
a reason to think that you're favoring anybody over another.
23:20
So you always need to carry yourself in the right manner. So he was upset with
23:25
me that day that I had to say something to him.
23:27
So the next day, I popped his door where we feed them because it was in lockup.
23:32
So we pop the doors and we go back and we give them their drinks and we give
23:36
them their food and then we lock the door back up.
23:38
And this particular day, he decided he wanted to throw something on me.
23:42
Yeah. So he threw substance on me. And I'm like, oh, my God, let me get out of here.
23:48
Because they have thrown feces. They've thrown urine. They've thrown blood.
23:53
Every kind of thing and other things that I will not mention.
23:56
But this inmate. They throw biohazards. All kinds of nasty driblets.
24:02
But he threw cold coffee on me. And so I was like, you know,
24:08
even though he threw something on me, I'm grateful it was cold coffee, you know.
24:13
And I said, OK, because of his position, he had to do something because it was
24:17
on the block and everybody else heard what I said.
24:20
So that was his, you know, his kind of get back. So I was like,
24:23
OK, I hate it happened, but I'm grateful it was just cold coffee.
24:26
And then he apologized a few days later. I wasn't Jones back then.
24:29
I don't know what her name is.
24:30
Mr. Elliott was my name back then. Officer Elliott, you know,
24:33
I just want to say, you know, I apologize. because of the way that I carried myself at that prison.
24:39
He knew that he was wrong for what he did that caused my reprimand.
24:43
He knew that he was wrong for throwing anything on me or anybody else.
24:46
But he had to take action to save his face.
24:49
Well, you know, I remember one of the first times I toured a prison when I came
24:53
to work at Scenic being so surprised that the correctional personnel and the
25:01
inmates were not, it just wasn't adversarial.
25:04
And some of the correctional officers looked at me and said.
25:07
No, we show respect because we want respect back, and there's just no reason
25:14
for it to have to be adversarial, and it's certainly not to anybody's benefit.
25:19
And I don't know, TV makes you think sometimes that it's a certain way,
25:24
but it was very interesting to find out.
25:26
And your story kind of backs that up. Right. You know, it's human beings.
25:31
Exactly. In confined spaces together, and sometimes there's going to be moments,
25:35
but usually people are going to think about it. And most of the time they do,
25:39
especially when they know that you have been nothing but respectful.
25:43
And they remember that you don't show the favoritism. And they always told us
25:48
also don't read their jackets because they're here.
25:51
They're already here for their punishment. It's not your job to punish.
25:54
So you do what you have to do and you follow your rules and your standards and
25:59
you just let them know up front what you expect and don't deviate from that.
26:04
And you should you should not have a problem. Things do happen now.
26:07
Things do happen even if you are respectful and you're respected.
26:12
But we always hope that everyone is safe while they're working inside the prison
26:17
system or when they go there.
26:19
And you carried that through probation and parole as well, right? Yes, even more so.
26:25
But in that job, you have to do a lot of different things, though,
26:27
right? You have to kind of be a social worker, right? All of that.
26:31
Social worker. You have to be a counselor.
26:34
You have to be the probation officer. Help them with housing.
26:37
Yes. All kinds of things. Housing, mental health treatment.
26:40
Sometimes you play Uber, too. Is that rewarding when you see someone,
26:44
you know, thrive, actually get through it?
26:47
It is very rewarding. It is.
26:50
Do you have any success stories that you can think of? Or I don't know if you can even talk about it.
26:54
Well, I saw one lady today, as
26:56
a matter of fact. I was in the bank and she walked in and I said, hello.
27:01
And she looked over. She said, hey, Ms. Jones, you were my probation officer.
27:07
I guess it's a good thing when they remember you and are happy. Uh-huh. Yeah.
27:11
And she walked out. She had somebody with her outside the door.
27:14
She walked out and I heard her say, that was my old probation officer.
27:18
So, yeah, I just hope that I was impactful with the caseload that I had before.
27:24
I had the mental health probation position and after because all of that is
27:29
challenging because if you already have mental health challenges and then you
27:34
combine that with homelessness and then you combine that with substance abuse
27:38
or the lack of resources,
27:40
the lack of support, it could be very heavy.
27:43
And so trying to give them the support that they needed, sometimes as an officer,
27:48
it can really put a hamper on you if you don't know how to separate the two.
27:53
Right. So a lot of times you have to compartmentalize a lot of things that happen
27:58
to you or with you, with your offenders while you're working.
28:01
But when you go home, you need to be able to relax and enjoy your family and
28:06
do your self-care and exercise and try to stay fit to keep your own mental health
28:11
intact. But yeah, of course it's rewarding.
28:13
I've seen people throughout my time as a retiree and reflect on the things that
28:20
they had struggled with and to see how they are now.
28:23
Not to say they don't have any more troubles, but at least I was able to get
28:26
them through their period of probation
28:28
and also to be impactful to them is important and it is rewarding.
28:34
Not everybody can do this kind of work. No, they can't. And some sort of shouldn't
28:38
be. That hard service is so important.
28:40
Some shouldn't be, but, yeah, it takes it a fair way. Well, that's the problem.
28:43
If you get to the point where fast food restaurants that offer benefits are
28:46
competitive with the state, it is dangerous for everybody.
28:51
And, like you said, some people who shouldn't be will end up in the jobs.
28:55
In the jobs, right, because they need the help. It changes the pool of candidates
28:58
that are going to apply for this work.
29:00
Absolutely. I mean, at some point it's like, are you breathing?
29:04
Yeah, are you breathing? Come on in here. Because you could be 18 now and work
29:07
at the prison. That scared me.
29:09
Me stunning oh yeah you're still a child oh
29:12
yes you have no life experiences you are still learning yourself and i know
29:18
that they need yeah i know they have parameters and and places where they cannot
29:22
work within the prison but i was amazed i'm not sure that 44 year old me could
29:27
do it 44 year old you put your big boy pants on you're good,
29:34
Can we talk a minute about how community corrections, how probation and parole,
29:40
how you guys work with local police departments?
29:43
Because I know I read an article just a few days ago in Charlotte that special
29:49
ops had worked with CMPD, Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department,
29:53
and apprehended an offender who had not only a gun, but he had drugs.
29:59
You had fentanyl and maybe some weed.
30:02
But, you know, that was some marijuana.
30:07
But that was such a danger. I mean, so where does the connection happen with
30:12
state law enforcement and local law enforcement?
30:17
Particularly probation and parole.
30:19
Well, in my experience, you know, just to be...
30:22
Completely honest, sometimes the county sheriff's department or the police department
30:29
would depend on probation and parole office to get inside the house because
30:33
according to the conditions of the order,
30:37
we can go and search the house at any time because they're on probation.
30:40
But they can't. But they can't. But they can't. Gotcha.
30:44
So that was a helpful way sometimes if they needed to gain access.
30:48
And if they're on probation and they have that standard listed and conditioned.
30:53
Well, it's always listed, but that was helpful for us to be able to go in and
30:57
have them along with us for extra backup.
31:01
And of course, there's strength in numbers. So if you have a good relationship
31:05
with the department, which you should always have a good relationship with the
31:09
local law enforcement at any capacity.
31:13
Then strength in numbers, go in there and do what you need to do and everybody
31:17
hopefully will come out safely.
31:19
I'm not a guy. You said he had the fentanyl and the marijuana and the firearms. Yeah.
31:26
And they probably felt like he had it because sometimes they have tips and they
31:30
know that they have things of that sort inside of their homes.
31:33
And so you go in knowing, OK, this this is what we're looking for.
31:37
It's what we got. But it's very helpful to have that backup. Yeah.
31:41
You know, you have we talked about this briefly the last time you were on here.
31:44
You have such a unique perspective, having worked both roles,
31:49
and probation parole, like you just so eloquently stated, you've got to deal
31:55
with so many mental health issues sometimes,
31:57
criminal justice issues, and how they mix and mingle and how one causes the other sometimes.
32:04
You are so uniquely suited to...
32:06
To talk about this. And I know one thing we wanted to do as Scenic is have a
32:11
committee to look at this.
32:13
There's so many out there right now. After the Charlotte light rail killing.
32:17
There are so many committees and round tables and so forth.
32:22
You know, I know people, some people from the legislature listen to this,
32:25
people in the administration,
32:27
whoever, somebody needs to get Emily Jones on one of these bodies that's looking
32:32
at this because you need that perspective from somebody who has worked with local law enforcement,
32:39
with mental health social workers and people like that to help people and who
32:43
understands that nexus between that and crimes.
32:47
I would love to do something like that. All right, y'all heard it here first.
32:51
Yes, you heard it here on the podcast, we're seeing it.
32:54
Yeah, it's very important. And because of the lack of resources for the homeless
32:58
and people that struggle with mental health issues.
33:02
It's a dire, dire need for us as a community as legislators,
33:07
as an association, as moms and dads and uncles.
33:11
We have to do something to help these people because it's not going to make
33:16
it good for the state because they're on the streets and they're not being provided for.
33:21
And to make the connection in which those things are happening,
33:25
but I think the more voices we have and the more people that we have on these
33:30
committees and at these roundtables,
33:33
that's going to help shine the light that needs to be shined so that they can
33:38
get the funding that they need and we can get the public outcry to open up some
33:42
doors for folks that may not otherwise have the door open.
33:46
And sometimes people in public life are thinking that looking at people with
33:51
mental health issues in a special way in terms of criminal justice is somehow being soft.
33:57
I've known you forever. The last thing you are is soft on crime.
34:01
You're pretty tough. And yet to hear you say that, what would you say to somebody
34:06
who just thinks if you take into account that,
34:10
someone's mental health issues, and you don't just keep running them through
34:13
the criminal justice system without doing something.
34:17
Other than that, why is that not working for us?
34:20
This is just my personal opinion. I think the worst thing that we ever could
34:25
have done was close Dorothea Dix.
34:28
Now, somebody might not like it, but that place was massive,
34:32
and it gave so much support to people that had mental health issues,
34:36
or they were in some way or another disabled or challenged.
34:42
So whenever they closed it and we started leaning on Central Regional Hospital,
34:47
it was very hard to get people placed in Central Regional Hospital.
34:50
It was almost like a act of Congress.
34:53
So where did that leave people to be on the streets?
34:57
And it's very hard to get them into any other facilities or it was whenever
35:00
I was doing that type of work.
35:02
It's very hard to get them housed, to get them meals in the homeless shelter.
35:07
They had to tighten up on their rules as well.
35:10
So it was hard to get them in there sometimes too, because if their mental state,
35:14
was not to a point where they could sit on a phone for 20 minutes and answer
35:18
questions, they forfeited their right to go into the shelter.
35:21
I've sat there with some of my offenders to try to get them into the shelter,
35:25
and they became so frustrated with the questions that they were having to ask.
35:30
While they were needed, the offender didn't have the mental capacity to continue
35:35
to answer these questions. Why are we going to answer that question one time? Why ask it again?
35:38
But what I tell a person, I would ask them what kind of bubble have they been
35:42
in, and they need to take a walk down Wilmington Street at the men's shelter,
35:46
look through the woods, and see the people that have tent cities back there.
35:50
And then go back there and talk to those people to see why they're there,
35:54
to see what they might need. Go back there and feed them every now and then.
35:58
Nobody's going to do that. They're not going to do it. But until you do it,
36:01
until you see it, we really don't want to hear what your criticisms are.
36:05
Is it a large percentage of folks who come out of prison that wind up homeless and have mental?
36:12
I don't think there's a large percentage. It's significant. Yeah.
36:16
But I really can't give you a number. Or just with my experience,
36:21
and let me also add, just because a person is not on a mental health probation
36:26
case or caseload doesn't mean that they're not homeless.
36:30
Because regular probation officers
36:31
also have people that are mentally challenged and that are homeless.
36:36
But I may have carried a caseload of maybe 40, and maybe a quarter of those would be homeless.
36:44
Those are just the ones that are on probation or parole.
36:47
It's still a lot of people Crankly hard to,
36:51
Keep track of someone who's homeless, right? It is. It is hard.
36:55
Sometimes we had to go into the woods, like I was just mentioning.
36:57
And I had a co-worker of mine. She was smaller than me, and she was not from this area.
37:02
And she would literally go back there deep in the woods. And I would say,
37:06
Callie, you have got to stop doing that.
37:09
But she cared about these people so much that she would not think twice about it.
37:15
She would go back there, grab them, and make them get in the car with her and
37:18
take them to their appointments. and she's moved to Florida now,
37:22
but she was about her business.
37:24
And sometimes it's what you got to do. Where are our probation and parole TV
37:28
shows? That would be a good TV show. Oh, yeah.
37:30
They tried that, I think, in Minnesota or somewhere. You know,
37:34
like 911, we could do that.
37:36
We're going to write that. We're going to write it, yeah, yeah.
37:39
Make that happen. We'll make the show. Uh-huh, that'd be great.
37:42
Well, this has been awesome.
37:44
I knew you would knock it out of the park. I had no doubt. You had doubt.
37:48
Thank you, but I did have doubt. Thank you for your faith.
37:51
Interesting. You're such an interesting person. In good ways. Thank you.
37:55
In disturbing ways. Y'all have any other hard-hitting questions before we move
37:58
on to the fun part of the podcast?
38:02
I don't have any fun things to say, but I just want to say this.
38:06
But I think one thing that would help, at least the people in Wake County,
38:10
because that's where I'm from and that's where, that's my base,
38:14
probation officers in Wake County.
38:17
Parking is a really bad issue.
38:19
I know I was paying $105 a month to park my state car in the deck.
38:27
We had Ramona on about last year who talked about how they don't get to park.
38:34
And they have to pay to park and then walk distance to the Wake County Courthouse.
38:39
And they could see people who know them and recognize them and are like,
38:42
oh, no, I'm going to hurt them because
38:44
I know who that is. It could put potentially it could be dangerous.
38:47
And I think something has happened. Legislative folks who hear it, let's handle that.
38:53
Yes. But that feels like something that could be handled pretty easily.
38:56
Well, we have been trying to get that changed for a long time. And they do have.
39:02
Parking lots for a lot less than that, but you're walking three or four blocks
39:07
with your vests and your safety package.
39:10
We're taking you down to Jones Street when they come back.
39:14
You'll get it sorted. All righty. But, you know, I bet your real estate is so
39:19
expensive there. You can't just build a parking deck, you know.
39:22
It is. I'm quite sure it's very expensive. Ramona talked about how she had known
39:27
people who had gotten tickets on their state vehicles for not paying to park
39:31
when they I didn't want to walk five, six blocks just to get to the courthouse.
39:36
Well, you had to pay parking for your state vehicle?
39:39
Yes, I paid to park my state vehicle.
39:42
And then I had to pay to park if I wanted to park close, like if I wanted to
39:46
run in or park on the side, pay to park.
39:49
And if you forget or if you're in court and your time runs over or if you're
39:52
doing an arrest and you overstay your park, you're going to get a ticket and
39:57
you better pay it. Out of your pocket.
39:59
Out of your pocket. And that's crazy to me that they are.
40:02
You're going to pay that or it's going to double in about 10 days.
40:05
Crazy. You should be able to write that off your taxes.
40:08
I don't think that's a thing, John.
40:12
But physical fitness is so important and mental health. I don't care where you work.
40:16
If you're stressed, if you think you need to talk to somebody,
40:19
we have ways that you can get some counseling.
40:22
If you need to go to the gym, walk around in a park, go somewhere and get yourself
40:27
some air. I think if officers were able to drive their state vehicles to a gym
40:33
to work out during their lunch break, that would be great.
40:36
That's something that other organizations have been trying to work on as well,
40:39
just to help with your mental health and get the help you need.
40:42
So I would hope that you would do that.
40:44
I feel like Emily's Law is coming. Is there already an Emily's Law?
40:48
I don't think so. I don't think so. And another thing. No, I'm just playing. I'm just playing.
40:54
No, you're not. I'm really not. I'm all good. Let's go.
40:58
It feels like you're running for office, Emily. Oh, well, maybe.
41:02
No, no. Just this office. President is next.
41:06
Well, it's awesome to hear you. So passionate as a lot of our leaders are,
41:11
all of our youth leaders. And we'll switch gears a little bit this month.
41:14
February is Black History Month. We've been trying to highlight state employees
41:18
and state sites where employees work that, you know, are prominent.
41:24
And I just wanted to ask you, as a state employee and a retiree,
41:28
do you have a mentor or a prominent person that you look up to and maybe led
41:34
you to a career in public service?
41:36
Well, I don't have anybody that led me to a career in public service.
41:40
I think I've always kind of been that way growing up. But Carly Yarbrough is
41:45
an old supervisor of mine.
41:47
Okay. Yeah. She's not with us anymore.
41:50
Wonderful lady. Was she in central prison or? Probation and parole.
41:53
Oh, okay. She was a chief.
41:55
Okay. And two things she would say to me. She would say, well,
41:58
she said this to everybody. Give the people what they want.
42:01
Because if you went in her office complaining about something that you had to
42:05
do that you didn't understand, give the people what they want.
42:08
Just do your work and get it done.
42:11
Another thing that she would say to me specifically is,
42:16
you can't be ghetto all your life.
42:19
I would try to take a shortcut. Well, this is what she meant.
42:22
I would try to take a shortcut and she would tell me I can't be ghetto all my life.
42:26
And I was, I had a different position in a different organization.
42:29
And so I think I was trying to write a letter or I was a recommendation or something.
42:33
So she was reading over it for me and she, her voice is a little bit deep.
42:38
Emily, you can't be ghetto all your life. And so she would help me with sharpening
42:43
up my skills. Well, so I've always loved Carla and I always do. So I still do.
42:49
You just remember her. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
42:52
And so she was a sergeant, you said? She was a chief with probation and parole.
42:56
But actually, Carla made history. I just remembered this.
42:59
She went to NC State and she was, we're going to have to Google her because
43:04
I can't remember the exact accolade.
43:06
But she was one of their star basketball players years and years ago.
43:10
So Carla Hillman was her name then, but she's Carla Hillman Yarborough.
43:15
Okay. That's fantastic.
43:17
Yes. Awesome lady. Awesome, awesome lady. She made you feel,
43:22
even if you were wrong in what you were doing, she did not make you feel dumb
43:27
or stupid or shortcoming in your attempts.
43:30
But she helped to guide you to getting the right way to do things.
43:34
And she made you find what you were looking for. So when you had the same question
43:38
again, you knew how to figure it out.
43:41
And she would listen to you whenever you had personal things going on.
43:45
Wow. You know, so she was just a wonderful lady. She had tons.
43:47
I'm looking up, like you said. She played under Kay Yow.
43:50
She was third in program history and most assists in the NCAA tournament,
43:55
seventh in program history and most NCAA tournament games played,
43:58
and second best in total program history with 12 assists in a single game versus
44:03
Clemson on January 3rd, 1987.
44:07
Wow. That's my Carla. That's awesome. Yeah.
44:11
District 10. Carla Yarborough. Yeah. I think she'd be proud of you. I think she would be.
44:16
Look at you now. You're on the scenic view pod. See?
44:22
Okay. Well, that's a great story, Emily, and thank you for sharing it.
44:26
So let's go to the Gen Z moment.
44:28
You got anything this week, Sammy?
44:31
I don't know how much we're going to want to get into it, but the main thing
44:35
that Gen Zs are focused on right now is the Epstein files.
44:38
The lack of information, the lack of things being released has caused a lot
44:42
of distrust with Gen Zs and political powers that be.
44:47
It doesn't matter who you are. There is a lot of distrust right now And just
44:52
not wanting To hear any of it They just want the facts released And it's been
44:57
I think all generations want that But I understand That this might be like Your
45:01
generation's first Like time seeing this You know what I mean?
45:06
Like I don't know I think this is so much more extensive Than anything we've ever Yeah.
45:11
And y'all have Been through some stuff Yeah As a generation So Definitely went
45:17
through some weird things including just COVID and like during peak growth years
45:23
of like your social development years and doing things like that.
45:28
It's definitely some weird stuff in our lives. But I think that just these files
45:34
and the lack of transparency.
45:37
And to be honest, y'all are the generation that would have been victimized. Yes. Yeah.
45:42
With things like Life Touch, which was who was taking our school yearbook photos,
45:47
whether we wanted them or not.
45:50
They were involved in the files from what we've heard.
45:53
Apps like Kik, which was a text messaging app, have been involved.
45:58
And there are a lot of people who are my age now who are looking back and saying,
46:02
wow, my name very well could be in those files as a victim from the unlimited
46:08
access to the internet that I had as a child.
46:11
So you've talked a bit in the past about Gen Z's disillusionment with both parties, with institutions.
46:18
We're in a primary season right
46:19
now. Anecdotally, are your friends saying they're voting? Are they...
46:23
I don't know how much they're voting in the primaries. I think that they'll
46:28
vote come this fall, but not doing much during the primaries.
46:34
Well, I guess that's, in fairness, that's kind of true.
46:37
They're kind of like, whoever I have is my option in the end,
46:40
unless it's something that they are very passionate about.
46:43
But they don't seem to be just latching on to one party or the other and going for the ride.
46:49
No, they're getting much more frustrated almost in the feeling of burn it all
46:57
to the ground at this point and start from scratch.
47:01
They honestly have no faith. Concerned over what that would look like. Yeah. Yeah.
47:06
But very little faith at this point in either side. Right. I think everybody's
47:12
faith has been challenged at this point. Yeah.
47:14
Everybody's. I think we're going to need lots of reform for this,
47:17
but yeah. We need Dolly. I'm telling you, Dolly Parton needs to be voted.
47:21
But this may be the first time in my life that I don't vote.
47:28
And I say that because I don't think I have a primary. I don't think I have
47:34
anything to vote for. I haven't checked yet.
47:36
Maybe that's, everyone needs to check that. See if you have something to vote
47:40
for. That's a good point. Check it.
47:42
Because I don't think we have any primaries in my district. And I spoke to,
47:45
I had a friend the other day asked me about voting, and I looked it up,
47:50
and she didn't have a primary. She was very confused.
47:52
And just as a reminder, Scenic did no primary. Yeah, no endorsements.
47:56
And early voting is going on now through February 28th, though,
48:01
and March 3rd is the election.
48:03
And please check this State Board of Elections, and I think you can get information
48:08
there on who your races are.
48:13
And who's running, and yeah. I think we have some school board races in Lee
48:17
County, so maybe I'll vote.
48:19
Yeah. Yeah, you still got school-aged kids. So I was going to go with my question
48:25
of the week. Play the music.
48:35
Revisit the Olympics and say what has been your favorite thing,
48:38
your favorite event so far?
48:42
Anyone? The bits and pieces that I've caught, because I fight the system, y'all.
48:46
I am not paying any more money to watch TV. That is the whole thing.
48:51
Speak on it. Where do you watch this at? Like, for real? I don't know. So Paramount.
48:55
It's on Peacock. Was it Paramount? Peacock is who sponsors the Olympics.
48:58
Yeah, but you had to subscribe to it.
49:00
So 30 minutes in, it cuts me off and I'm like, what the heck?
49:04
I was just watching this so now you've got to subscribe to
49:06
and i just refuse i don't watch that much tv irritated about
49:10
yeah how they get money out
49:13
of us every way we turn around and i'm just fighting the system on that i'm
49:16
not paying money to watch it it's just like the so the figure skating is always
49:20
like appointment television yeah it's then like when is that gonna happen is
49:24
it tonight we're recording on thursday but i think it i would like to watch
49:28
it figure skating the whole time different i'll I'll give you my parents' DirecTV account.
49:34
That's what I do. Emily, did you just indicate you haven't been watching at all?
49:39
I have not been watching. What in the actual world? I've seen stuff about the
49:42
quad god. That's about all. He lost.
49:45
Yeah, he had like something happened during one of his things.
49:49
He was very upset about himself.
49:51
All I've seen is stuff on the internet because so many people were talking about
49:54
him because he has deemed himself as the quad god.
49:58
And so someone had mentioned he messed up something during his routine.
50:02
He was very beat himself up about it, but he didn't win.
50:05
And so I was like, okay, well, I don't know. Ilya Malin. And he expressed some
50:10
mental health concerns similar to what Simone Biles did. Mm-hmm.
50:15
A few years back, the pressure on these folks, I can't even.
50:18
Oh, my goodness. And I'm not going to throw rocks at these folks because I could
50:22
never handle that kind of pressure.
50:24
It's a lot. But, you know, it's concerning whenever you hear a young person
50:28
expressing that kind of stuff online because they are definitely trying to let people know it's.
50:34
Well, when you're doing skills like in figure skating or even in gymnastics,
50:39
they're very, very dangerous if you even get the slightest bit in your head about it.
50:44
But even if you have done that skill a million times and stuck it a million
50:48
times, it's very, very dangerous to just get in your head.
50:52
It's my understanding about Miles, who had said the thing about gym is at the Olympics, is in Italy.
50:58
Yeah. I've seen several times she's been in the crowd and they say,
51:03
and her husband, Jonathan Owens, because her husband's name. Oh, really?
51:08
So thanks for bringing down the fun part of the show, by the way, y'all. I mean. Aw.
51:13
Can't bring me down. about it i love the winter it's the
51:16
best with his quad god so
51:20
i've been watching the the hockey's been awesome and of
51:24
course curling has been awesome and i watched snowboarding yes women's slope
51:30
style snowboarding which was really cool yeah so those are my three surprised
51:35
you hadn't been watching the speed skating no i can't find that i can't i tried
51:39
to find it see they do this to its own purpose, John.
51:42
I was going to say, I haven't been watching any of it because I'm the same as you.
51:46
Why are they keeping... I'm not
51:46
paying for it. Okay, I need to check that out. I mean, this is my thing.
51:50
We can't keep paying all the money to watch TV and pay the Duke Energy Bill,
51:54
the Progress Energy Bill. Something has to give.
51:56
Yeah. I'm like, my parents, they pay for DirecTV and then they have some of
51:59
the apps and stuff. So I could, in theory, get on my computer and log into their DirecTV and do it.
52:05
But I don't want to. I want to watch stuff on my TV. Don't tell her I'll go into jail.
52:09
I don't think... Yeah, don't tell anyone. I don't know about all that, but...
52:14
I'm with you, John. The curling, unbelievable. I really want to have a scenic
52:18
curling team like you suggested.
52:20
So what about double luge? Have y'all seen that? I saw someone who was doing...
52:25
No, no, no. No, I know. People are... Okay.
52:29
Men are being so immature about the double luge. Why is that a thing?
52:32
There was someone who was doing the luge-ing, and he was going face first.
52:38
Oh, that's called skeleton. Oh, that's skeleton. Yeah.
52:40
Why? Why? 80 miles an hour. He was like the only person who was going face first.
52:45
Everyone else is like on their... No, no, no. There's a whole event.
52:48
Skeleton's a whole event. Oh my goodness.
52:50
Colin Jost going down the bobsled and he was like, it's the most terrifying... I saw that.
52:55
I also saw pictures of like the bobsledding tracks or lugeing tracks, whatever they are.
53:03
When you're watching it on TV, it does not look like it's going sideways.
53:07
Yeah. But you see someone standing next to it. It is a full on the wall,
53:11
like... defying gravity kind of stuff.
53:14
And I'm like... Like a NASCAR track, you know. Yeah.
53:16
It's pretty impressive. Like, it's crazy once you see that. I just love Olympics.
53:20
I love winter. I love summer. I love every event of all of it. I love it.
53:24
I think these people who can do these things are amazing.
53:28
Their dedication I can't even fathom. I did see something, and I want to know
53:34
you guys' opinion on this.
53:35
As a second child, I kind of agree. But people were saying that Summer Olympics is a first-child sport.
53:42
If you were the firstborn, that would be like the summer.
53:46
And then the people who would do the Winter Olympics, those are the second-born
53:50
children energy. That is so wrong.
53:52
That is so wrong. But I see it because I did gymnastics growing up.
53:57
I was never going to be good enough to be an Olympic gymnast.
54:00
Never going to be good enough.
54:02
Well, that's how you have to look at it, Sam. It's just energy,
54:06
because the energy is very different.
54:08
My brother is much more disciplined than I am, and he's the firstborn child,
54:12
and I got the wild child energy.
54:14
Well, I think the Winter Olympics are more deadly overall. Yeah.
54:19
Oh, speaking of which, I did find out the rifle event. It's called biathlon.
54:24
Yes, and it's interesting. Yeah.
54:26
So my thing is, we're terrible at it, though, right?
54:30
USA, sorry, not UNC, USA is like terrible at this sport, and we have so many guns everywhere.
54:36
I know. Why can't we just send like the Green Berets to do that?
54:40
Because after you've cross-country skied and your heart rate is 180,
54:46
and then you have to lay down, and you only have a certain time,
54:49
and you have to not miss one of those five shots.
54:53
Yeah. As a child of a Green Beret, they don't want to.
54:56
It's just like. You got what? People in Vermont that could maybe have enough
55:00
snow. We're not sending our best at this.
55:03
They always say, like, why don't we put LeBron in handball? We need to.
55:07
Yeah, exactly. You know how in Rocky IV Russia created the super athlete?
55:12
Yeah. We need to, like, morph.
55:13
Drago. A Southern good old boy's shooting with Vermont cross-country ability.
55:21
And we'd have, like, a super biathlete. There has to be somebody in Boone that
55:24
could do that. What about people in Alaska?
55:26
Are we forgetting about people in Alaska? We got Alaska. Yeah.
55:30
We digress. Oh, boy. I do want to say that the most impressive Olympic athlete to me was the dog.
55:37
What's the dog? I didn't run. There was a wolf dog. Oh, yeah.
55:41
That got out of his pen, came on to the skiing. Yes.
55:46
Right where they were finishing and came in second. So the dog technically gets
55:51
the silver medal. That's awesome. He just wanted to run.
55:55
Well, go Team USA. I see that our women, spoiler alert, our women did win the gold in ice hockey.
56:01
Woo! And we'll see you next week.