Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Raising Kids Who Don’t Need to Win to Feel Worthy

Transcript

Raising Kids Who Don’t Need to Win to Feel Worthy · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, Mike drop moment. I'm going to say it and
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: people are gonna hate me for it, but here we go, Kylie.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Competition and kids, they don't mix. Little kids don't do
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: well with competition. It's provocative, it's sensationalistic. But kids don't
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: love competition. I've said it.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: What do you mean they don't love it? We're going
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: every child who ever existed this competitive.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Just because they're competitive doesn't mean it's good for them,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and it certainly doesn't mean that they like it.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hello.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Families podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every day.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. And after the
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: break we answer one of your tricky questions. This one
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: comes from Emma in New South Wales who wants to
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: know what to do about a five year old who
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: has to win everything. If you have competitive kids, you
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: don't want to miss this. Stay with us. Hello, Welcome
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: to the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions, every single
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: day on Australia's most downloaded any podcasts. We are Justin
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: and Kylie Coulson. We're the parents of six daughters.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Are you being competitive?
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Well, it's pretty rare that I get beaten on that one.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: I have to say, although I was in Perth couple
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: of weeks ago and somebody had eight kids and I
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: just I stood there and bowed down to the moment.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: What else could I do?
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would bow down.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: That's pretty impressive today a conversation that I think is
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: really important. Oh, by the way, I should finish the
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: intro and get through the formalities. If you would like
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: to submit a tricky question every Tuesday, we answer them
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: on the podcast about anything that you want to talk about. Like,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: we mainly focus on parenting stuff, but we will literally
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: answer any question about anything. Happy families dot com dot au.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Just scroll down to the super simple system where it
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: says podcasts, you click the record button, you start talking.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Just like Emma from New South Wales, I have.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: A five year old girl. She's my oldest and she's
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: currently in kindergarten. She is currently obsessed with coming first.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: We've tried to speak with her about how you can't
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: always come first and you need to share things and
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: all that sort of stuff, but it doesn't seem to
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: be working. It happens quite often, even just going up
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: the stairs to go to bed, she has to be
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: first up the stairs. If she isn't, she'll start to
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: cry and eventually tantrum. Any suggestions on how we can
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: help her process this.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Okay, Kylie, I got to go first on this one.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious because I'm trying to work out what
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: advice you're going to give.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I thought you were going to fight with me and
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: say non, no, no, because you are the competitive one
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: in our hunt.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Well, there's nothing better than making it up the hill
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: on my bike as I fly past you and leave
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: you lagging.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: You had to bring that up, didn't you.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels really good. So, Emma, I'm with your daughter.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: There is something joyful about that moment.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: We've lived this with six daughters. Before we answer the
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: question about just a moment of empathy for you and
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: any other parent who's children have insisted on being the
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: first one to.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Push and the lights off.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, push the button, but I want to push the button.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I'm having the first shower. No, I'm having the first shower.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Brutal. Yeah, card games never ever, we play games and
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: the cheating the things.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: What about the pedestrian crossing? I got to push the
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: button so I can cross at the crossing when the
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: kids be younger. I mean, it's just I want to
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: be the first one down the slide. I want to
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: be the first one on the swing. This is this
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: is kids, all right. There's a couple of things that
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: we need to talk about here. I want to talk
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: about why in the first part of this podcast. Well,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: I guess the.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: First thing to tell Emma is the acknowledgment that her
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: daughter is exactly where she's supposed to be.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is normal.
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: This is so normal. You've got siblings, she does the eldest.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, how's my listening skills. See, I'm getting excited
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: about what I want to talk about. So there's a
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: couple of developmental realities here that we should discuss. The
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: first one has to do with the Swiss psychologist Jean
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: Pierging and some of his brilliant, brilliant insights. So he
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: developed this four stage developmental model, Kylie, and what we're
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: talking about at the age of five is a child
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  Speaker 4: transitioning from what's known as pre operational thinking to concrete
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  Speaker 4: operational thinking. And this is really at the crux of
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: what we're discussing.
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  Speaker 2: That's some big words.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Okay, pre operational thinking, so pre operational. This
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  Speaker 1: is typically ages. I'm going to say two or three
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: through to six or seven, okay thereabouts, So coming to
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  Speaker 1: the end of this stage. Now with a five year old,
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  Speaker 1: there's something called conservation. So I can have five M
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: and ms all bundled up in my hand really tight,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: or I can spread them out on the counter and
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  Speaker 1: they're still five. But you know, like kids, they'll see
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: a small bundle of things, I'll see things spread out.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: They don't understand that it's the same thing. One thing
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: looks bigger, so therefore it is bigger, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. That just reminded me of how many times there's
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: been fights over who gets the biggest piece of cake
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: or slice.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: The way that I've always resolved that is you cut it,
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: the other person chooses, yeah, which piece.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I understand what you're saying, unless they look
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: exactly the same, ye to a child, Like we've got
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: two different sized glasses in our house.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, and they hold the same amount.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Of exactly the same amount.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: But one's short and one's tall and skinny.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but they will pick the big glass every
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: time because.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: They're convinced they're getting more.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So that's conservation of matter, and in
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: pre operational thinking. Another thing in pre operational thinking is
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: the understanding, well, as you move out of pre operational thinking,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: you begin to understand that more than one think can
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: be true at once. And with younger kids, they really
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: struggle with that. So first is binary, First is concrete.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: First is absolute, And at the age of five, it's
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: really hard to hold onto this nuanced idea that I
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: don't win the race up the stairs, or I don't
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: get to turn the light off, and I'm still a
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: capable person, or I'm still a good person, or I'm
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: still competent.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that that's true for so many
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: of us. We tie our worth up in results.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah to her performance exactly. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. There's also
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: something else going on developmentally here. She's still pretty egocentric.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Egocentrism sort of peaks that around about somewhere around that
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: pre operational stage, somewhere between two three four, But there's
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: still a bit of it at five. I mean, I
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: know plenty of adults and a lot of teenagers that
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: are pretty egocentric as well, but this is when it
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: really peaks, which means that she's going to struggle to
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: take other people's perspectives. She doesn't have this concept of
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: why they might also want to be first, because it's
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: all about her, and at this age they're just so
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: black and white. Now as they move into concrete, operational thinking,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: the other big word that I used this is where
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: they start to become a bit more capable. They're still
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: super inflexible, super super rigid, but they start to just
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: relax a little bit more into some of these ideas
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: and they become a little bit more cognitively flexible. The
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: other thing that I really wanted to highlight Kylie is
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: we talk about all the time basic psychological needs. Competence
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  Speaker 1: is a basic psychological need, and kids just want to
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  Speaker 1: look competent, and the best way to look competent is
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  Speaker 1: to win. Come first. If I can, Oh my goodness,
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  Speaker 1: If I can win, then I am competent, and kids
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  Speaker 1: just they look for observable evidence of competence all the time.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: If she doesn't come first, it's not just disappointment. It
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: feels like it's a need threat and she doesn't know
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: if she can be capable and effective, and it triggers
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: that distress response, which for her is really genuine. Probably
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: also worth just highlighting emotion regulation still pretty low at
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: this point. It develops across time, and kids don't get
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: good at emotional regulation in most circumstances most of the
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: time until about the age of eight, nine, maybe even ten.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Nine did you say eight?
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Maybe even ten? So they're the three main reasons, Emma,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: that this is occurring why kids are so competitive at
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: this age. And it does get better, but it doesn't
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: get a lot better for the next few years. Kylie,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: what age would you say our children stop being competitive?
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: They've got you for a dad.
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  Speaker 2: There's no.
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  Speaker 1: Says the mum who just relishes beating me up right
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: on the bike, getting up the hill fast. Hey, after
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: the break, let's talk about what to do. You're back.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast. What do you do
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: when you've got a super competitive child? Kylie? I've got
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: a handful of ideas, But before we jump into my ideas,
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  Speaker 1: do you have anything that really stands out to you
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  Speaker 1: with something that we have done so effectively to curtailing
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: and effectiveness of our children.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm laughing, So you don't have.
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  Speaker 1: Any good ideas. I guess my ideas are better. I'm
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: going to go first, again, you're gonna tell me to
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: go or have you got something for us?
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: You win?
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go. First of all, relax, it's normal, it's appropriate,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: it's developmentally standard. Relax. If you fight against nature, you
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: are going to lose. Nature wins all the time. Nature wins.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: So when I think about what she's shared, she has
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: suggested that this is her oldest daughter. So there are
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: other children. We're not sure how many, but there are
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: other children. And at this point I would say that
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: it's probably not having a huge impact on them.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Too young.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: They're too young, So life is going to teach her
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: this lesson.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't say they're too you know, and they don't care.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: They probably do care. But at this point she's going
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: to win and make the most noise about it.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and life will teach.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Them, and so it might not be something that you
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: have to stress about so much at the moment.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that it is. In fact, My
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: last point is I'm going to wrap up with a
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: little bit more on that. My second point is this
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: play games, play games regularly, and let her lose and
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: win in low stakes environments.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: So for me, I think one of the things that
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: would help as well is if you're going to bed
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: and you know that getting to the top of the
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: stairs and winning is the most important thing. Changing it
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: up and saying I'm wondering how slow you can go,
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: like can you be as slow as a snail as
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: you go up the stairs, and just giving her different
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: actions to do the different tasks that require her to
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: actually slow down.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: The third thing that I was going to suggest is
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: to model losing well, so if you lose something, you
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: don't have a dumby spit. Make sure that she's got
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: good models of losing, but also model winning well. And
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: this is probably antithetical to what most people would think. Again,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I started the podcast with the microp moment, I'm going
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: to kind of move towards a wrap up with the
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: same thing. I'm pretty anti competitive. I don't really love competition,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: and the main reason is that for me to feel good,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: I have to make you feel bad. So young kids
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: they don't get when like Kylie, I don't care. I
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: love seeing you beat me up the hill. I get
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: so much joy from it when I see that you've
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: gone from not wanting to ride a bike at all
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: to writing with so much confidence and so much power
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: and so much panache that you can raise me up
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: the hill and beat me like. It makes me happy
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: to see you win. I don't feel like I'm less
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: of a person for losing. And I think that when
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: kids can see that model his stories like that, We've
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: got this crazy idea in our society that competition is
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: always good. That's in that positive But for the competition
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: is based on the premise that for me to feel
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: good about myself, you have to feel bad about yourself,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: that I have to make you lose. I have to
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: make you suffer, I have to grind you into the ground.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I have to win. You have to lose. Someone's going
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: to be sad here. It's not going to be me.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: That's probably an overstated and maybe even caricaturistic view of competition,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: but in many ways that's what happens even in the
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: adult world. That is the world we live in.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: And if our worth is tied up in our performance space,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: then we are always going to be feeling.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Like we're intacting.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because there is always there's always someone better.
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: I'd start to teach her the value of serving rather
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: than winning. You can feel better about yourself helping other
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: people to shine, you can feel better about yourself.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Help you two year old walk up the stairs? Yeah?
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Can you help them to beat you? What kind of
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: a head start do they need? What kind of things
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: can you do to support them to become more confident themselves?
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: And the last thing that I was going to say
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: is just let her win. Let her win as much
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: as she wants. Who cares the playground and the horribleness
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: of life will teach her one way or another. But
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: the stakes are low at home, and she can have
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: a sough place to land at home, and you can
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: have lots of really good chats at home when all
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: this stuff happens. I think there's more value in letting
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: her learn to lose on purpose and letting her learn
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: to lose with a big heart and a desire to
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: serve and support and help others. I like to subvert
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: the idea that competition is going to be of benefit
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: to kids. But it's really hard to teach them that.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: It takes years and lots and lots of chats. But
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: hopefully this has been helpful. Now do you want the
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: last word or should I have it?
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: What have you got for me?
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: I can't believe you called my bluff. I've got nothing.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I've said everything I had to say. You in you
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: keep on doing it to me, and now I feel bad,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: But you feel good. Elition right there.
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: Good for you.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad I get to help you shine. If
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: you've got a tricky question, get in touch with us.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you. Just go to
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Happy families dot com dot au and press the record
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: button start talking. It's our super simple system. Alternatively, you
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: can send us a voice note to podcasts at happy
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: families dot com dot Au. Another tricky question coming up
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: next week tomorrow. Oh my goodness, an interview tomorrow that
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I am so pumped for Professor Gene Twangy, one of
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: the world's leading experts on everything to do with kids
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: and tech and screens. And she's talking to me for
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: as much time as I could get out of her
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: to talk about her brand new book. Oh my goodness,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be such a good one. Join us tomorrow
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: for that. Please, this will be one you do not
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: want to miss. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by
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  Speaker 1: Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. Nim Hammonds provides research, admin
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• 14:14
  Speaker 1: make your family happier and to help with the kind
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: of challenges that we discussed for Emma today. Please check
• 14:19
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• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Ten Things Every Parent Needs to Know. Both of those
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: will help you enormously with these kinds of challenges. You
• 14:30
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• 14:32
  Speaker 1: families dot com dot a