Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 144. Back to Basics: Nonprofit Marketing and Branding - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE

Transcript

144. Back to Basics: Nonprofit Marketing and Branding - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, I'm john.
• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: And I'm Becky. And this is the we are for good podcast.
• 0:06
  Becky Endicott: nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:15
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:24
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started. Hey, Becky, its favorite topic day. And it's Friday, I my two favorite things colliding here. We're talking all things nonprofit marketing today. And can we go ahead and define this moment that we don't like calling it nonprofit marketing, we don't know why.
• 0:55
  Becky Endicott: It's because we're going to try to convince you today, if you are not already convinced, you know, we're marketers disguised as fundraisers. But you need to invest in your marketing, you need to take a hard look at your brand. And if you don't know what that is, if you don't know how to define it, don't you worry, we got you, we're going to help you. And
• 1:14
  Jonathan McCoy: we really want you to profit off of your marketing
• 1:17
  Becky Endicott: that says nonprofit marketing, but we really do want you to profit off your marketing and it's worthy, your mission is worthy. Your brand is an asset. And it actually does sell the thing that you are a mission that you are perpetuating. And we're saying, why not give it a platform, a stage a microphone, and ask people to come on over?
• 1:40
  Becky Endicott: Because they're going to get excited about who you are. And we're going to help you position it.
• 1:44
  Jonathan McCoy: I'm getting excited hearing you talk about it for sure. So okay, we're in the back to basics series. This is unpacking all these kind of kind of hygiene type things.
• 1:53
  Jonathan McCoy: That's one of Becky's favorite words that need to be core in your development shop. And so we need to do some tone setting to begin these conversations. And then we're going to walk you through some different steps that you can implement. But one of these is we had a great conversation with Eric wrestler, who I
• 2:08
  Becky Endicott: think one of the great marketers
• 2:11
  Jonathan McCoy: of this moment in time. He's at cosmic, and so you can find them over at design by cosmic calm. But he says the new scarcity is people's attention. And really leans into this idea of this attention economy is we're fighting for the minds of people in the hearts of people. And it's a busy crazy world out there.
• 2:28
  Jonathan McCoy: Maybe it's a little slower in 2020. But in general, there's so many messages coming. There's so many competing factors. There's so many notifications. So we want to talk today about how do you play in that sandbox, because the way that we played 20 years ago definitely does not work today. And we have to just get really centered on how to get people's attention.
• 2:48
  Becky Endicott: I agree. And I just think this concept of scrolling is a really important strategy that you need to be thinking about, because we need to find a way to have scrolls scroll stopping content, which is what Eric talks about. And if you can just picture people around the world. I mean, whether it's on the subway, whether it's in line somewhere, they're on their phone, and that thumb is yes, flick, flick, flick, flick flick. What are you doing, to make them stop to make them read to make them click to make them lean in to make them had some comment some color to what you're doing? And we think it starts with building
• 3:30
  Jonathan McCoy: your ethos. You we love ethos around here. And what the word we use ethos is really to define this culture of the organization. What's that unique? What's that special sauce that makes you who you are as an organization. And we use ethos, because we feel like it should drive everything that you do, like it should embody who you are. And if you've heard us talk about branding before, which will be part of the conversation today. You can't think of it as a logo, like that's what you know, our parents generation talked about is branding. Oh, thinking a brand is really all of it. It's how people perceive you. It's how people interact with you.
• 4:06
  Jonathan McCoy: It's the feelings that come about it is the colors, it's all of it. But you want to think about how is the ethos infiltrating every part of your nonprofit mission and every, you know, opportunity to touch point with your audiences as well. And so I think that's a great place to start some of the ethos that we love to bake in, is some of our values like everyone matters. That's why when we're talking about content, we're going to make sure we're writing in a way that communicates that we see people and that we understand that the people that we're trying to attract also see people Yeah, and that's just a very simple way. But what are your values that you want to communicate, bake that into your ethos and make that the core of what you're talking about?
• 4:44
  Becky Endicott: I love this conversation around ethos and values and all of that converges to build a culture and I think that we don't think about the culture of philanthropy that we're perpetuating. It's not just within your organization.
• 4:56
  Becky Endicott: It's not just with your donors, the brand In the way that you can bake in values, your tone, your word choice, how you pull in visuals, all of it is creating a culture of philanthropy. And we want it to be exciting. We want it to be compelling and meaningful. And the way that you can do that is not difficult. You do not have to have a marketing degree to be able to do this. You have to be human. You've got to show up authentically, you got to bake in storytelling, and you got to put people at the center of it.
• 5:28
  Becky Endicott: So we need to start breaking it down. But I know you want to talk about Seth Godin.
• 5:34
  Jonathan McCoy: Seth is one of my peeps, I just love everything that he says about marketing.
• 5:37
  Jonathan McCoy: But his tone setting about brand is that your brand is the sum of expectations and feelings perceived by people. Again, it's your brand isn't what you say about you. It's what others say about you what they say about you at the watercooler when you ain't Hang in there, it's the feelings that they're going to have at a table across them, their friends and family. So that's why it's so important that we thread just what you said Becky authenticity into it, because that's gonna seep through whether you're authentic or not. And so it's got to be baked into how you create this entire pie
• 6:09
  Becky Endicott: 100%. And I'm just giddy about it, because it is putting this buttoned up corporate robotic style of interacting to bed, I hope forever. I mean, it is begging us to show up and show all our vulnerability, talk about the needs that we have talked about the fears that we have the troubles that we're experiencing, and allowing people to come in, and fill in those gaps, with their skills, with their donations with their volunteer time, whatever it is, it's not about showing, or being fearful of someone seeing what you're not doing. It's about allowing them to come into the vision. So I'm going to give you a couple of marketing truths that I don't think most people in nonprofit are absorbing and pouring into their brand and into their ethos. And there's six quick things that we have just seen that have resonance over time. And so as you're starting to look at your brand, and you're starting to dive into this process of how do we become our true selves, in person in our communications, and digitally, think about these things. Number one, people matter.
• 7:23
  Jonathan McCoy: It's kindergarten folks.
• 7:24
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, it is.
• 7:24
  Becky Endicott: Number two, optics matter. You cannot put together something that is half aid. Sorry, I didn't say it, john, you cannot do something that is watered down and isn't compelling. We just think that the graphic and the visual presentation of who you are truly matters and it engages. Number three, story matters. And if you're not finding a way to tell your story to pull in how others are viewing your brand through their story, you're missing out, because that is what's going to be scroll, stopping content, resonance matters. So things that you can plant the things that you say, are things that people remember, for a long, long time, how many times have we gone into a luncheon, and somebody put up a testimonial, and someone talked about how an organization or a situation change their life, forever, we connect that story with that mission before we think of anything else. Number five, authenticity matters. I think we've beat that drum enough. But please show up as yourself. And the last thing is your brand matters. It truly does. Even if you are the tiniest nonprofit staff of one, you feel like you have a very modest budget, how you're showing up in this world.
• 8:38
  Becky Endicott: What you are perpetuating is good. If you're a nonprofit you are for good. Don't water down your brand, put it out there. Be proud because it matters. I love
• 8:49
  Jonathan McCoy: that because I've just recently been kind of enlightened to this idea of personal branding is really just reputation. At the end of the day. It's kind of present day reputation as think the same thing like you would invest in a positive reputation for your organization. So why would you not invest in your brand in this whole conversation? So you know, we're beating the same drum.
• 9:07
  Jonathan McCoy: We've already dropped it all.
• 9:10
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, I wanted to go through something. Sorry. If you're drinking after every time I say Seth Godin, just get ready for the marketing King,
• 9:17
  Becky Endicott: we'd love him.
• 9:18
  Jonathan McCoy: He really is.
• 9:18
  Jonathan McCoy: But he wrote the tiniest little book, it's this little orange book that you need to buy called This is marketing. Becky gave it to me Actually, last year. But I promise it would change the way that you think about marketing because at least if you are a few years out of school, what you probably learned in college about marketing, a lot of it, you know, maybe some of the core truths are the same. But really the tactics have completely shifted and just wanted to kind of run through some of this because I think it's so powerful if you step into this new way of thinking, but the old ways we all know it was mass media, right? If you wanted to make a message, everybody wanted to get a TV ad during a primetime spot.
• 9:56
  Jonathan McCoy: Let's be honest, who's watching all the same show at this point, right? We're all watching the things that we're passionate about, we're not all congregating around one certain place, because it's the market is so neat niche at this point, right, we all have these areas.
• 10:07
  Jonathan McCoy: So you know the age that we're in this digital revolution that we talked about leading into this conversation, there's ways to go after specific groups of people with paid ads. And you can do that. But truly, everybody's doing that, you know, you could target on Facebook, every 20 year old in Oklahoma City, and put an ad in front of it, but so Can everybody else. But what you can't do, and this is where the secret sauce is, is really connect with people's human desires or their needs, through the values of your organization.
• 10:37
  Jonathan McCoy: So Seth uses this hilarious example. And I love that I'm on a first name basis with this, I'm just gonna act like real casual
• 10:45
  Becky Endicott: podcast and teach us more seriously.
• 10:48
  Jonathan McCoy: But he uses this example that a Harvard professor came up with that, you know, let's say you want to hang something on the wall, you're like, Oh, I need to drill a hole in my wall. So you go to the hardware store, you get the drill bit, you drill the hole, but it's really not the hole that they want, you know, they really want to hang the shelf.
• 11:03
  Jonathan McCoy: Because I want to Why do I want to hang a shelf because I want to get my house like more tidy, why don't want my house to look more tidy? Because I want to feel control of my environment, right? I want it to look a certain way. Or I want my friends to admire my beautiful house when they come over. And so at the end of the day, he says, you don't really just want this hole in the wall, you really want safety and respect.
• 11:23
  Becky Endicott: Oh my gosh, you want to drill bit to safety and respect what
• 11:26
  Jonathan McCoy: I've, I love that example. Because truly there is if you kind of follow the cheese, like at the end of the day, but follow the stream, you know, it is yeah, you get to the end, and we sell our marketing short if we just tell these like one sided stories.
• 11:38
  Jonathan McCoy: But if we can get to the underlying core of what is Becky really care about, and I know you really well, you care about justice, right? And you care about equity. And so if I could connect with you at that level of marketing, so if I can appeal to Becky at her chorus value of fighting for justice, for the underserved or not seeing people group Becky's gonna be a fan for life, and she's gonna be so endeared to the stories, to the marketing, to the messaging to the fundraising, and everything.
• 12:09
  Jonathan McCoy: And everything else kind of fades away, right?
• 12:47
  Becky Endicott: This is such a brilliant example. And all of a sudden, the drillbit is just a tool totally just about message and connection. And I we did not discuss this analogy before we started this and I positively love it. Because I'm thinking now everyone's going to come and target me for justice. And you should because that is what makes me stop my finger flicking because I want to click on that.
• 13:12
  Becky Endicott: I want to know more about it. I want to know how I can pour into it. In my friend and my community. Why can't How can I make a difference in tiny little Oklahoma somewhere else in the world. I do want to know that.
• 13:25
  Becky Endicott: So brilliant. I just feel like
• 13:26
  Jonathan McCoy: it all connects to because the back to basics.
• 13:28
  Jonathan McCoy: We've been talking about these different fundraising strategies and major gifts and corporations were always saying at the end of the day, go have coffee, like get to know someone, because if you understand them, you understand their values. And at that level, I would know how to appeal to you. Right and, and not in a shoe army way. But like, look for alignment of you've got the same values here.
• 13:49
  Jonathan McCoy: Of course, I would want to invite them in it takes the creepiness out of it.
• 13:54
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, it's it goes back to authenticity.
• 13:57
  Becky Endicott: You're not you're not smarmy if you show up as your authentic self. And again, what is the worst thing people in our business could ever say to us?
• 14:03
  Becky Endicott: No thanks. And I'm like, cool, peace out, you know, I'm gonna go over here and talk to this person, because they may have alignment, but I wish you well.
• 14:14
  Becky Endicott: So love this conversation. And of course, if you've been in our back to basics series, you know that we have a, we're for good arc, on everything that we talked about. And these are the sort of disruptive mindsets that we have seen work that we don't think nonprofits are really employing. And so we want to give you a couple of suggestions in terms of how to build your ethos, how to engage with your marketing that ties back to those values. And so we're going to run through a couple of these. The first one is seek to disrupt surprise and set your mission apart. There are 1.4 million nonprofits in the US alone, that is going to be a noisy space. And we are all fighting for that one person that we're trying to connect with out of millions and millions of people 350 million people in this country, we need to find a way to speak differently, to connect differently, and to surprise them with something they've never seen before.
• 15:11
  Jonathan McCoy: I just think that's one of the most brilliant marketing hacks is if you're disrupting you're going to stand apart right away. So when they zig zag every single day.
• 15:22
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• 16:25
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, number two is to get a dang plan.
• 16:29
  Becky Endicott: We literally said get
• 16:30
  Jonathan McCoy: a dang plan on this. And this will be in the show notes too. So you can quote us on this. But, you know, strategy without goals is so empty, and it should all connect to your vision, it should all connect to your mission, what are you actually trying to do, and then just build the plan to do it, everything seems a lot less overwhelming when you have a plan to which is kind of the byproduct? Exactly.
• 16:49
  Becky Endicott: So the third one is real people and their stories should be the heart of your brand. So if we're going back to Seth Godin, it's not what you're saying about your brand. It's what other people are saying about your brand. And what an amazing way to show community in in your mission. It just has a different feeling when somebody is saying why your mission is important, rather than Why me the organization is saying that I am important. Give those people a microphone. That's so
• 17:19
  Jonathan McCoy: good. And the words that you use matter. So tell a really great story.
• 17:21
  Jonathan McCoy: You've got these people that are aligned in value that have either been impacted or have chosen to invest philanthropy, tell those stories and do it in a way that makes it easy for other people to share. Just if you think about the example about the drill bet story, we could say, you know, on the surface, that people are actually going to buy things that align with their values, where you could tell them that story and you're like, Oh my gosh, actually get it. It's the difference of using the power of storytelling to explain something that may be complicated or hard to imagine and envision, especially if you're working in a difficult scenario, nonprofit.
• 17:55
  Becky Endicott: I love that.
• 17:55
  Becky Endicott: Okay, we're about to geek out on my new favorite topic here.
• 17:57
  Becky Endicott: Which number five is work toward building brand democracy? What do I mean by that, because that just sounds like a sexy thing to say. Let me tell you what it means this is going to force you to let go of your messaging, you cannot control absolutely everything that is said about you, if you're holding so tightly to your messages. So if you trust your volunteers, and your staff and your donors to communicate their own understanding of your brand's identity, it is going to have a ripple effect. And so we need to stop having these really buttoned up conversations. I can think back john to the days we've heard about organizations who pay a ghostwriter to write their blogs, and then they control the comments on the back end. Yeah, I mean, it makes me feel so crushed. Yes, I hate it.
• 18:44
  Becky Endicott: This is about releasing, and letting people having trust in them and letting them tell the story of your mission. And I love that this brand democracy talks about staff voices, and your employees are one of your number one success factors. Let them have a microphone and let them go.
• 19:05
  Jonathan McCoy: It's like just another way you can show the values that you're trying to perpetuate by actually doing this absolutely. Becky's really strong on this one and so good, but creating a distinct voice and a soul for your organization. I attribute the we're for good soul to Becky. I bring the business she brings a soul. We don't know what that means. But, you know, one of your great hacks I think, too is Becky's developed, like a voice style guide for us. And it helps people that are not native writers like myself, be able to sound like we are for good whenever we're just trying to write something. And I think that's a powerful tool that can be used at any organization, but figure out how you speak the kind of things you say you don't say do you use emojis or not.
• 19:45
  Jonathan McCoy: But getting that kind of documented in one place can truly revolutionize the kind of versatility of your voice so other people can lean in and talk
• 19:54
  Becky Endicott: to I just think everybody needs a voice style guide. And we will have classes coming up on that because I think it's something that's just not utilized enough in our communications in our digital presence. Okay, john bragged on me. So I'm gonna brag on john.
• 20:06
  Becky Endicott: The next one is design and visuals are key. They are absolutely essential to connection. Would you rather if this was just a poll, would you rather learn about something or someone through text and you're reading a story black and white, very stark, or would you rather see a picture of a puppy who needs some sort of service and there's a short little tagline They're to click to the puppy story. I mean, that is a no brainer. And john does such a beautiful job of lifting that up pulling humanity into the visual, he shaking his head at me awkward that you need to, you need to accept this compliment.
• 20:46
  Becky Endicott: And I want you all out there to fight for this investment, because this is something that you absolutely need within your budget because visuals matter.
• 20:56
  Jonathan McCoy: Well, that's very, very kind. Thanks back,
• 20:58
  Becky Endicott: you're welcome.
• 20:58
  Becky Endicott: You're the best. Okay, so
• 21:00
  Jonathan McCoy: you've got to also invest in a digital presence. So if this is not something that is on the top of your list, start to get it there. Because it's non negotiable. You hear this thread and a lot of our conversations, it's the front door to your organization that never goes to sleep. So you want to have a website that is representative of your values and your mission.
• 21:17
  Jonathan McCoy: And a place where people come and get engaged with this brand that we're spending all this time talking about today of developing that's really engaging.
• 21:26
  Becky Endicott: Okay, so the next one is something that we say all the time, which is try stuff, test, survey, ask, poll, whatever it takes to keep your finger on the pulse of your people. We don't want our communication to be one sided.
• 21:43
  Becky Endicott: How are we ever going to draw those stories out? So constantly be asking, be evaluating and think about how that's going to pivot your strategy data. And feedback really does matter.
• 21:55
  Jonathan McCoy: I love the example you shared of trying to control the blog with the comments like that's hilarious and so true. There's still Corporation was listening today needs to check their blog on that. But you've got to figure out when this world of social media, how to harness it and not control it, how to step into that vulnerable place where you're okay, having these conversations because they're happening at the watercooler anyway. So you much rather be there and be able to speak into it, then just not even being part of the conversation. It's something that I think takes bravery, and takes true leadership to be able to do that. But it's a really powerful tool and where some of the biggest movements happening today are happening on social media, or at least they're being charted alongside social media.
• 22:39
  Jonathan McCoy: So it's like you want to be there, and not trying to just control it. But to harness it.
• 22:43
  Becky Endicott: in me, I'm a harmonizer at heart. And I want to know if there's a problem, right, I don't want to tamp that down, I want to lift it up, I want to resolve it, I want to figure out how we can be better and learn from that. So release, it's really hard. I can be a control freak. But I'm saying we need to just soften our hands on the wheel. And we need to almost allow our donors or rabid fans to come in, take the wheel for us. And we're going to do it in partnership.
• 23:08
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, so do you want to do some rapid fire hacks as we can? Fire? I know, we've thrown a lot at it at you today.
• 23:14
  Jonathan McCoy: But I think these are some places to just get started if you're wanting to implement some ideas. And the first is really use your values as a lens.
• 23:21
  Jonathan McCoy: Because if you go back to the idea of what are your goals, what is your strategy here, you're trying to perpetuate that people want to connect to the values that your organization is trying to uplift, or to fix or whatever it may be. So share content and stories through that lens, just start filtering it that way, or even classifying it that way. If you're doing social media, and you have five values, think about every fifth post is, you know, perpetuating one of those values. And it's a good way to try to make sure that you're keeping the conversation around all these great topics,
• 23:52
  Becky Endicott: awesome suggestion and hacks. The second one is leverage multi channel whenever possible. You've heard us say this many times, we're gonna keep saying it because it's so important. Not all of your audience absorbs content in the exact same way. You should be diversifying where and when you talk to your audiences, you know, are you employing text for your Gen Z? Or are you giving them opportunities to give via mobile? What are you doing to send the annual report to your boomers, you know, or direct mail, you need to diversify and find a way to connect with your audience. So it's really about meeting them in the space that they are
• 24:29
  Jonathan McCoy: so good. And I think pairing that with segmenting your data, understanding what are the breaks that you want to divide?
• 24:34
  Jonathan McCoy: And how can you start with just segmenting around something that makes sense maybe these people all gave to a certain campaign last year, definitely talk with them as if you know that you know or know that they're on the board or know that they're in a volunteer capacity. People will appreciate the little nuance of realizing that you understand who they are.
• 24:53
  Becky Endicott: Yeah. Okay. This may be the most powerful one.
• 24:57
  Becky Endicott: syndication mindset is key to this entire marketing revolution. And if you don't, if you do not tune in to our syndication workshop, don't you worry, we're going to hook you up. We have literally built a free workshop. We'll put it in the show notes. You can access it on how to leverage a syndication mindset. And many of you are saying what is that? And it's really about taking one solid piece of content, maybe it's an impact report, maybe it's something that like an event script, it could be anything a story, and it's about parceling it out taking bites of it in dripping that in your communication Why? Would you work so hard on something like an impact report and put it out once there are so many great nuggets there. And it is going to be key to executing this robust communication and engagement strategy? Yes, you
• 25:46
  Jonathan McCoy: got to take that workshop, we put a lot of resources into making that as actionable as possible. So it's really great. And once you've got all these wonderful touch points, you really want to pair them with some compelling calls to action. And we've got a really great list that will sync up in the show notes, too, if you're looking for a call to action, you want to put on either a website, or a piece or wherever you're creating these marketing messages, social media posts, will have a list of things, it's going to always include a call to action, something actionable, oh, I can actually do this, I can actually make this happen.
• 26:15
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, we have a worksheet and it's like, I don't know, how many are on there. I would say 50. And they're super short. Yeah, go use them.
• 26:22
  Jonathan McCoy: So check that out. Okay, we have literally thrown so many things at you.
• 26:24
  Jonathan McCoy: But I hope that you're seeing the undercurrent of this, that we're in this moment of time, when we have this incredible Digital Sandbox play box in front of us all this opportunity for connection, engagement, and ability to tell our story in a really deep way. So just get in there, try stuff and see what happens.
• 26:44
  Becky Endicott: So here's our final challenge to you, if you're not sure where to start, or how to start building this brand. And you're starting to do that sort of self discovery of oh my gosh, who are we? And what are we doing? Here's three questions that you need to answer that I think can help launch this strategy for you.
• 26:59
  Becky Endicott: Number one, have you shared your story yet? Have you thought about your story? What is it?
• 27:07
  Becky Endicott: And how are you connected to your mission? And why are you passionate about it? That's number one. Number two, how have you brought people to love your mission? That's something that requires some analysis and asking, it's simply asking a question, why do you love us?
• 27:20
  Becky Endicott: Why have you been around so long? These are simple questions. And I can assure you the connection that you build will be able to launch some of the strategy. And the last one is Have you listened to someone else's story, some are going to be good, some are going to be bad, we need to hear all of it, because it shapes who we are as a brand, as an organization and as a culture. So if you're looking for a place to start, start with those three. And once you get the answers, the content, the feelings, the vulnerability, find a way to use it to launch.
• 27:55
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, so if you feel like you're doing this alone, stop, don't feel like you're alone, that you you've got alone, that we're for good community where you can be surrounded by, you know, like minded people that want to push their nonprofit missions forward. And you can find community there, find ideas there share questions, absolutely lean into that resource. And then don't forget our syndication workshop, we're gonna link it up in the show notes. It's completely free to take, but it'll set you on this course to really make the most of the content that already exists. And that's where we really encourage people to start. But we just really believe in you. And we're so glad you're here.
• 28:31
  Becky Endicott: I just want to like grab everybody and give him the biggest hug and like pat them on the back and give them a way you can do it. We're your coaches, we're sending you out into the Brave New World, your brand, your mission is worthy of this,
• 28:43
  Jonathan McCoy: and we're fully vaccinated, so don't worry about that. You've got this friends.
• 28:49
  Julie Confer: Thanks for listening to our back to the basics conversation around nonprofit marketing and branding. We hope you feel inspired to find that heartbeat of your organization. You probably hear it in our voices, but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community. It's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. It's our own social network and you can sign up today we are for good calm backslash. Hello. One more thing if you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and Your support helps more people find our community.
• 29:19
  Julie Confer: Thanks, friends. I'm our producer Julie Confer and our theme song is sunray by Rumi boys. Boom thanks for being here.