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The Digital Paradox: Why More Connection Is Making Us More Alone (Benjamin Matthew) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the
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  Speaker 1: That's CiU dot edu. Hey everyone, welcome back to this
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  Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: joined again by doctor med Matthew. He is a professor
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: of counselor education at Columbia International University, and we're going
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: to be talking continuing our conversation about faith and mental help,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about going to introduce the
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  Speaker 1: idea of a stool here, a three legged stool, and
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  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the social leg today. There's
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  Speaker 1: two other legs, the existential leg and the embodied leg.
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  Speaker 1: So the social leg really refers to what's going on
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  Speaker 1: around us. The existential leg is more like what do
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  Speaker 1: we how do we understand what's going on around us
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  Speaker 1: sort of this world of symbolic meaning. And then the
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  Speaker 1: embodied leg is how how are we actually physically present
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  Speaker 1: within the realm of reality in which we exist. So
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  Speaker 1: those are the three legs in the stool, and we're
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  Speaker 1: going to focus in on the social leg this time.
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  Speaker 1: We got into this a little bit in the previous episode,
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  Speaker 1: but I think there's definitely more to be said. So
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  Speaker 1: when we think about society, we've come out of some
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  Speaker 1: really challenging social spaces at this point, and I, well,
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  Speaker 1: it's simple to start with COVID. I'll go back one
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  Speaker 1: more step. Uh, maybe three or four more steps I remember, uh.
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  Speaker 1: And this will be an odd reference. But the first
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  Speaker 1: time I ever watched Born on the fourth of July,
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  Speaker 1: Tom Cruise, you're movie, yeah, Oliver.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So he's a Vietnam vet that comes back from Vietnam,
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  Speaker 1: and you just watch how he's this you know, sort
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  Speaker 1: of happy go lucky high school kid who joins the military,
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  Speaker 1: ends up getting his legs blown off in Vietnam War,
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  Speaker 1: and then comes back and has just a host of
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  Speaker 1: problems coming back into society, and you watch how the
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  Speaker 1: various people within the society sort of shun him. It's
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  Speaker 1: not just about his legs, it's about how society is
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  Speaker 1: viewing the people who are coming back from the war.
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  Speaker 1: And he has this terrible time just coming back having
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  Speaker 1: seen what he's seen and then experiencing what he's experiencing,
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  Speaker 1: and it creates this like Vortex that he has a
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  Speaker 1: lot of trouble getting out of right. It's I just
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  Speaker 1: remember visibly watching that movie and going, wow, that's really difficult.
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  Speaker 1: Like what else was this guy supposed to do? Is
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  Speaker 1: almost what I left the movie with. And then as
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  Speaker 1: you watch some of these other social things going on,
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  Speaker 1: we could look at nine to eleven, we could look
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  Speaker 1: at COVID, we could look, you know, some of the
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  Speaker 1: bigger catastrophes within our society, as well as just some
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  Speaker 1: of the technological changes, which I'm sure we'll get into.
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  Speaker 1: We can begin to understand and get a picture. Sure,
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  Speaker 1: I think through some of those movies right when you
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  Speaker 1: sit back and you're like, oh, I get it, society
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  Speaker 1: actually does have an effect on our mental sciety and
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  Speaker 1: where we are, how we see the world, because it
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  Speaker 1: can start to feel like it's all against you. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: so I'll leave it there and let you comment.
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  Speaker 2: Then yeah, yeah, I'll take your bar on the furth
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  Speaker 2: of July and I'll raise you a Truman Show, because
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  Speaker 2: that's whats go through my head as you were saying that,
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  Speaker 2: as another movie that I think exemplified exactly what you
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  Speaker 2: were talking about, Like and in that context, he has
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  Speaker 2: a society, right. He has neighbors, Hey, good morning, good
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  Speaker 2: to see. He has a job place, he has family
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  Speaker 2: as a wife, he has coworkers, he has all of
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  Speaker 2: these things that you would say are needed for human flourishing.
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  Speaker 3: And yet something's about, right.
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  Speaker 2: Like there's a knowledge that there's this is not the
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  Speaker 2: way it's supposed to be. And it was such a
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  Speaker 2: powerful film to highlight that we can we can create
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  Speaker 2: all the models but not have all the essentials of
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  Speaker 2: what we need for human flourishing, right, And there's something
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  Speaker 2: about that that I think. I mean, that movie was
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  Speaker 2: in itself, both those movies around decades ago, and you
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  Speaker 2: look at them now in light of the current contexts
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  Speaker 2: that we're in. Yeah, wow, there are somewhat prophetic in
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  Speaker 2: terms of some of the things that they were talking
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  Speaker 2: about then. And what we're experiencing now is continued isolation
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  Speaker 2: in the midst of all of this technology, in the
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  Speaker 2: midst of all this community. We're not isolated in that sense,
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  Speaker 2: but we're more isolated than we ever have been. And
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  Speaker 2: how we've really distorted the ideas of what community means
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  Speaker 2: and the implications of that are coming to bear, right.
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  Speaker 2: The reaping is coming to bear in light of, at
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  Speaker 2: least within my area of mental health, what we're seeing
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  Speaker 2: in terms of the rise of anxiety and depression, and
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  Speaker 2: I think what we're seeing societ idoly as well, and
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  Speaker 2: just the loss of meaning and hope. What we were
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  Speaker 2: talking about about in our last episode is that it's
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  Speaker 2: not just affecting individual flourishing, it's it's affecting societal flourishing
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  Speaker 2: as well.
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  Speaker 1: So what is you know? I read Bowling Alone here recently,
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  Speaker 1: kind of as we were prepping for these episodes. I've
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  Speaker 1: I've always found a book compelling, so I went back
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  Speaker 1: to it and just reread it. I reread some of
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  Speaker 1: Stanley Hauerwaff's stuff, which he does sort of a narrative
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  Speaker 1: based ethic kind of idea, And what what I got
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  Speaker 1: out of both of those was just being social, right,
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  Speaker 1: having a narrative with other people, a shared understanding of
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  Speaker 1: how the world works in a sense that you're in
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  Speaker 1: it together. Whatever that together means. It mayn't even have
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  Speaker 1: to mean, like, you know, in the same way that
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  Speaker 1: I'm in life together with my wife, right, it doesn't
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  Speaker 1: have to mean that, right, but it means, you know,
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  Speaker 1: maybe we're going to decompress over, you know, you know,
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  Speaker 1: go out and golf and we're going to decompress together, right,
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  Speaker 1: Like it can be that sort of in it together
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  Speaker 1: kind of feel. But it just seems like what you
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  Speaker 1: see in the social realm is that you have to
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  Speaker 1: have pockets of people who are resonating with you about
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  Speaker 1: what's wrong in the world and willing to sort of
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  Speaker 1: have a little bit of a gripe session with you.
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  Speaker 1: You've also got to have people who are challenging your
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  Speaker 1: perspective of the world and saying it's not as bad
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  Speaker 1: as you're making it out to be, or it's bad
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  Speaker 1: in a different way than you're making it out to be, right,
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  Speaker 1: sort of shift your perspective. And then you have to
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  Speaker 1: have these folks who are just sort of there, not
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  Speaker 1: necessarily providing you with answers, but there to get you
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  Speaker 1: through whatever problem comes, whether that's just through being with
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  Speaker 1: you or silent or what have you. And so, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: as I was reading through that literature and some of
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  Speaker 1: the other things, those are the three big categories I
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: came up with sort of the buddy right, yeah, just
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  Speaker 1: agree with almost everything you say. It's going to be
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  Speaker 1: the perception challenger. And then it's going to be just
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  Speaker 1: that sort of central comfort.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And and interestingly enough, what we do really well in
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  Speaker 2: our especially in our technological constructs, because we do the
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  Speaker 2: buddy really well, Buddy really well. The buddy is there
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  Speaker 2: for you in a heartbeat, right, I mean, the algorithms
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  Speaker 2: they know how to work well, and they find us
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  Speaker 2: the communities that validate our gripes give us more of
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  Speaker 2: a platform to then talk about.
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  Speaker 3: Our own gripes.
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  Speaker 2: And it just it's the feedback loop, right, And we
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  Speaker 2: know that's that's exactly why it works, is because the
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: it's not a free service, that the commodity of our
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: attention is what they're seeking to engage with, right, And
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  Speaker 2: it works, and we get that little dopamine hit when
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: we see that little rage bait cantinued to move. The
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: buddy is there, present and all so supportive. It's the
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  Speaker 2: others that critique that comforter that I don't have space for.
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  Speaker 2: I don't have room for. I don't really want to
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  Speaker 2: hear their voice because it just feels good just to
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: be enraged over the ills of society. And we know
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: that's on every side of the political social spectrum, whatever
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  Speaker 2: the issue is, and that that's part of I mean,
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  Speaker 2: we've talked about this before with someone like Jonathan Height's research.
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  Speaker 2: We have essentially raised a whole generation in doing this right.
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  Speaker 2: When the rise of both smartphones and social media came,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: we did two things to our kids. We said, one,
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  Speaker 2: we need to keep you safe from the outside. You know,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: stranger danger, White vans and are looking to give candy
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  Speaker 2: to kids like we got to keep you. Even though
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: the research is very clear there's no such thing as
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: stranger danger.
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  Speaker 3: The idea of.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Kids being kidnapped was more of a publicity on milk
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: cartons than anything else. Say what didn't happen? It did,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: but the actuality of it happening statistically was so so
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: much less than the reality. So we took kids away
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  Speaker 2: from outside, from free play, from engagement with others, those
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: other critiques, those other comforters that are so needed, And
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  Speaker 2: we gave them this device and said you have no
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  Speaker 2: limits on this. So we're gonna limit you from the
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  Speaker 2: outside and we're not gonna give you any limits on
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  Speaker 2: this device. And I love your analogia because it removed
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: those critiques, those friends of mine that said, Ben, that's dumb,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: what are you doing it idiot. Don't don't do that. Like,
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  Speaker 2: those are good buddies, friends that I need in my life.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: And I just kind of developed a whole system, and
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: we've raised the generation that is, as Jonathan hed set,
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: is now the most anxious generation ever. And as we
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: know in research, he's not just making correlational arguments, he's
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: making causal links. Yes, that the decrease of outside engagement
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  Speaker 2: and community engagement and the increase of utilization of social
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: media through smartphones has only had a causal effect in
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  Speaker 2: terms of the most anxious generation we've ever seen in
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  Speaker 2: our society today.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen a ton of research on this, but
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: I would say two things. Number One, I like Jonathan
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: HiT's research. I think he's really right about something, or
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: at least onto something when it comes to those things.
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  Speaker 1: But I wonder if there's a step before it that
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  Speaker 1: we haven't really looked at enough, which is the ability
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: to distance ourselves. So again, you know, I sort of
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: think back to my life in a small town, right,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and maybe growing up in a city this would be
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: totally different. But in a small town, you know, I
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: grew up in the same church and we would never
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: really have thought about switching churches. You just stayed in
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: that church and it didn't matter who you were having
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: problems with, because dang it, you were Lutheran Church Missouri, syented,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: and this is the one in town, and that's the
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: one you're going to. Like, you're not going to drive
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: thirty miles to the next church over in another town.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: You're just not going to do that. And so you
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: you learn to deal with what you have and whatever
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: other problems that emerges. Is not an ideal. I'm not
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: painting in utopia here, right. You know, whatever gossip and
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: backbiting and all that kind of stuff happens, you're ultimately
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: dealing with it. And when someone needs help, you're not
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: celebrating it, right like, oh, finally they got their comeuppins.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Right Like, even if you say that, you also go
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: over to their house and help them.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, right.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: There's a deeper community element, whereas now it feels like
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: we not only have the Internet, which allows us to
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: interact with whoever we want, but we've also decoupled ourselves
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: from who we interact with on a more or less
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: regular basis. It's an effort to stay in one place
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: because if you don't like something, you can just roll.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: And it's very easy for us to you that nobody
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: because in part, I think, because nobody expects you to stay. Yeah.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the commercialization right of our communities, if not church,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: just in general, that works well if I if I
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: go to a restaurant, I get bad service, I get
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: a bad mail, I'm taking my business elsewhere. I think
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: I have every right and responsibility to, as it were,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: support a capitalistic model. I want the I want the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: good businesses to earn my dollars.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: But when we kind of transfer that mindset over into
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: something like church life, I really didn't like that sermon.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: You know music, you know it's not doing it for me,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Or I have an issue with this person, I'll just
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: go to the next church down the street. I'll find
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: a church that kind of just settles with my own
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: commodification of what I want.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: Man. That that works really well with restaurants, not so
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: great with churches.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Well there, it just feels like to me, there's a
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: way we denormalize a lot of these things in our lives.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: So when my wife and I were looking for a house,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: we were moved down to a follon Alois. We're looking
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: for a house. We went to one of these. It's
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: like a subdivision. I don't know what they'd call it,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: you know, but they have like your house, and then
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: there's a community gym and there's usually a church in
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: the subdivision, and there's like a store, and there's a
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: little market area. And the whole time I'm sitting there
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: thinking this is some sort of weird cult, right, like
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: what is happening? I don't understand that's why we have
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: all of this stuff here, like like it feels so insular,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: it feels so you know. I mean, those are the
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: things that were going through my head right now. There
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: were a lot of reasons we didn't move there, none
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: of which had to do with me feeling like it
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: was a cult. And ultimately I was thinking to myself,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: it's probably not a cult, Like it's recapturing something that's
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: been lost, an attempt to recapture something that's been lost,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: And I didn't I feel like it's weird now, yeah, like.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Right, and we've so normalized it in a way that
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: it's have to go back.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: To it is like what are these people doing?
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Right? Like why you want me to interact with my
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: neighbors are supposed to just live in the house, like, right,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: I don't understand what's happening.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: No, I fully.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I mean that the first house my wife and I got,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: our our drive our driveway went to the garage in
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: the back, and none of our neighbors had fences because
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: one of those old neighborhoods old houses, Yeah.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: And none of them had fences.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: And so every time I came home, I I actually
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: had to see my neighbors before I saw my wife
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: and kids. Yeah, And I remember thinking, like, I'll be honest,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: that was not intentional on my part. I'd love to
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: say I was some super spiritual person like, oh well,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: connect with my now, but God impressed upon me, don't
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: waste this opportunity that when I would drive up, I'd
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: see Tom on his back porch, I see, I'd see
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Miss Connelly over on the side.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: I'd see Jamie, mister Jamie.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: And his family over in the other neighborhood, and I'd
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: have to engage with them before I just kind of
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: closed the garage door. I mean it was even a
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: detached garage, so I literally had to like outside, That's
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: just not a reality for most of our neighborhood. It's
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: weird to be able to connect with others. But it's
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: in those communities where and I think this is the myth,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: maybe particularly to this issue we were talking about before.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: My identity is not just individually constructed.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: We'd like to think I'm my own man, I make
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: my own story, and that's a very maybe enlightened way
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: of thinking, right, the individualistic ability to kind of define myself.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: But it's identity is is is not just invented internally.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: It's invented communally and ultimately from God in the context
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: of community, right the imago day. And what that means,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I think is so implicated to the to the triune
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: God himself. A God who is community creates humans who
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: of necessity must be in community. The one thing that's
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: not good that man should be alone before the fall, right,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: And how that then is is a reflection of the
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: communal God is a desire of man that the further
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: we get away from that, actually, I think the further
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: we get away from identity and meaning and purpose, which
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: contributes then to this loss of hope and despair.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: That we were talking about before.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Right. It's it's a good point, I mean, because I
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: think even in an even in a society that highlights
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: self sufficiency, that encourages you to you know, quote unquote
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: be your own man or develop your own personal identity
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: kind of idea. You're always doing that within whether that
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: those structures are more active or more passive, great point,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: you're always doing it within a context. It's never divorced
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: from what's going on around you in society and culture.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: And so if I want to be a you know,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: a hermit and live in my basement and just do
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: zoom meetings and never interact with the outside world, I
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: can do that. But I can only do that because
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: there's somebody out there who's created these platforms that are
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: keeping them up. And so what we tend to forget.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: I think maybe this is maybe this is one of
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: those differences. You know. I always go back to the
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: little House on the Prairie because I just think it
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: illustrates like community really well. You know, like you're you're
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: sort of dependent on your neighbors for help, Like everybody
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: tends to pitch in and you're not going anywhere, right.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Travel is hard, right, so it's not cool, it's not
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: fun to travel. So you're just kind of there with
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: these people, and it doesn't matter whether they're good, bad, ugly,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter. Like, these are your people, right,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: and there's a you know, you know who's milling the wood,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: you know who's selling the goods of the mercantile. You
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: know who's going to come out and deliver your baby.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Like you know these people, they have faces, they have bodies,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: like you interact with them. This is your society. When
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: we move into a technological world, those people don't go away. Yeah,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: they're just distance. They're like a step back mediated and
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: then they become essentially anonymous, Like we're on the riverside
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: right now, you know, unless I trust the website and
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: the wonderful guy that pops up to represent wiver Riverside
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: on the front page. You know, I've never met him.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he's a wonderful guy. Do I know that
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: he's the one who did all the coding? I don't. Yeah, right,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: he's These people are anonymous to us, but they're not gone. Yeah,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: And I think that distance creates a different sort of
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: perception that we can form our identities alone, when the
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: reality is we just simply can't.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's such a good way of saying the perception, right,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: even though we've become and I think we're going to
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: talk more about this disembodied. The actual physicality of community
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: is part of the importance of community. I can't do
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: that with everyone, And again to underground, thankful that I
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: can have connection with people even when the physicality.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: Is not there. Right.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: I remember as a little kid my parents yelling into
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: the phone to make calls to India because they'd have
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: to yell on there and for it to be even
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: hurt as a whisper on their other end. Comparatively to now,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: my mom picked up her phone and with the press
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: of one button gets high definition four K video of
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: her sister in Malaysia right at any time.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: It's incredible. I'm so famble.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: So we're not light heights in thinking that technology is
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: this evil thing that we need to do away with,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: and yet we also I love the way that you
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: said it creates this perception, this mindset that that we
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: we are individualistic, that because I can't interact with that
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: other person in the totality of who they are, I
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: can see, I can hear you, but not having the
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: physical presence that I think is so part again of
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: what it means to be communally engaged with each other.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: It's not only do I derive that meaning, but meaning
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: is also that that that dignity of the amalgamay needs recognition,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: it needs support from the community that is socially affirmed.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: That it's it's useful, it's respected, it's necessary. That's not
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: impossible in a technological construct, but it's done better in
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: a physical, embodied context. And so I don't want to
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: get rid of this, but I that needs to be
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: the This needs to be the norm. The physical needs
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to be the norm, not this.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I also think that you bring up a good
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: point about the dignity. One of the things that I
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: find interesting about the dignity of being made in God's
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: image is that number one, it's it's often referenced, like
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I can remember, just even as far back as Joe
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Biden referenced, you know, people being made in the image
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: of God, right, And so when we but usually when
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: we reference it, what we're really talking about is in
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: a non religious context, politically and socially, when we reference
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: the dignity that is inherent in the image of God,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: what we're really saying most of the time is hey
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: live and let live, right, Like this person is deserving
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: of making their own choices, and you should leave them
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: alone so they can do so. Yeah, we've we've individualized,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: we've adamized of that dignity, right, And I think what
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: we haven't done. The flip side, which I think connects
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: with some of the things that Jonathan Height is talking about,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: is that for Christians, when we read the Bible and
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: we see that we're made in the image of God,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: we're not just seeing dignity. We're also seeing obligation. In
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: other words, there's a way for us to dignify others
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: right or strip them of their dignity, and there's a
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: way for us to dignify ourselves and strip ourselves of
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: that dignity. And so it sort of works in this
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: two way fashion. And so when we think about the
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: identity within society, we're in this constant negotiation of when
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: is society trying to strip me of my dignity by
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: affirming it right and saying do whatever you want to do,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: you be, you go go in your best life whatever
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: it is right and giving no other guidance other than
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: just go live your best life right. Personal office in autonomy,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: yeah exactly, versus you know, sort of what we often
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: think of is this sort of more oppressive, you know,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: authoritarianism that says, in order to live your best life,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: you must boom boom boom boom.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: And it seems to me that it is somewhere here
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: in the middle that we that we come to grips
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: with that that our dignity is expressed best within a
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: set of constraints I believe. I mean, I would say,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: I know those beliefs come out of scripture, right, and
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: so within that set of constraints, that's where our best
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: life is lived, if we want to phrase it that way.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: But those are the constraints that we need. It can't
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: just be this sort of openness to say, James become
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: whoever you would like to become, because that's not gonna
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: go well for me.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: No, And that's such a great point that to the
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: to the has d A. Carson talk about the intolerance
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: of tolerance? Right, The one thing you can't do today
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: is tell anyone that they're wrong.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Tolerance used to mean I disagree with your point, but
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: we're gonna live in harmony with each other. That's not
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: what tolerance means anymore. Tolerance now means you must accept
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: dissenting opinions and to do let's then that labels you
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: as whatever phobia you want to attach to that accordingly,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: and we in a postmodern epistemology, we've so transformed that
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: that sense of dignity of self right individuality becomes the priority.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: And yet the whole whole idea is that again, I
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: have to have a community that helps both affirm the
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: good but also challenges those areas that I need to
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: be challenged, that that my own status recognition in of
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: myselfs is faulty. They're called my blind spots because I'm
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: blind to them, right, which is why I need others.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I was mentioning this to one of my classes. The
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: other we were looking through Ephesians chapter six. This great
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: passion I remember as a kid, right, the the helmet
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: of salvation, the breastplate of righteous.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: As a little kid, we have like all the pieces
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: we'd put on. We're like, yeah, we're gonna fight.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Right exactly exactly, and obviously there's much to be said
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: about that. And I made reference how I tried to
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: remind the students, Okay, now who's this written to? And
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: someone you could see one of my students like, oh,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: it's written to the church at Ephesus. It's not written
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: to Fred or Sally at Ephesus. It's written to the church.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: And the only way that the Armor of God works
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: is if it's done in community. That's not what I
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: grew up with in Sunday school. God blessed my son's
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: school teacher. But I was always told it was such
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: an individualistic fight against the powers of darkness.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: I'm part of it.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: But it only works if I mean, even the imagery
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: that Paul is probably pulling from in the ancient earies,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: the Roman cohorts right of the shields locking together the
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: side and above, it only works when you're with others.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: To see them just happened just last Thursday, to see
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: them go, oh, we fight together, to hear them articulate
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: that that system that is needed for us to engage
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: in the battle, because you're right, we do live within constraints.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: I think that's part of Paul's argument. And Ephesians is
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: what the Gospel then defines, how that implicates itself in
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: these communities coming together, and how the powers of Satan
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: and others are going to fight against that. So we
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: fight together because that's what the Gospel did. It gives
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: us this new identity that is not just individual, it's
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: not apart from me, but it's more than just me.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it And I think that's interesting, especially at the
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: end of Ephesians, which arguably talks more than any other
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: book about the Jews and the Gentiles coming together and
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: how those different community things should happen. And you know,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: if you think about the flow of that book, chapter
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: five begins with that sort of submit to one another.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Doesn't begin there, but it has that crescendo in the
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: first section where hey submit to one another. And then
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: you are going through these differing relationships that you have
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: in your life. Yeah, that's been a wife, parent child,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: master servant. Yea master servant. And so these are relational dynamics,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: and Paul has things to say to each person within
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: those relationships in order to manage the roles that they're in.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: And so if your a husband, here's how you're supposed
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: to act towards your wife. If your a wife, here's
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: how you're supposed to act towards your husband, father son,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: you know, or parent child, like same with master servant.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: These things happen within a community. Yeah, and I think that,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: you know, if we broaden this out and we say, well,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: what the what does it look like for the church
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: to confer this sort of dignity on the people who
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: are coming to it. I think Number one, a lot
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: of churches focused on community, and I think that's an
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: important aspect of this. But I also think that the
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: community sometimes is lacking in identity.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: In other words, it's just more of a gathering of folk, right,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: almost like what might happen if you went to a
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: rock concert or something thing. Right, you might have a
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: casual conversation with a person next to you, but at
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, you're going home by yourself. Right,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: this is not your new best friend, probably, And so
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: I think there has to be this sort of identity
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: infusion within the community of the church to help members
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: recognize that they are part of the body of Christ.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: They're members of the body of Christ. And I don't
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: know how to exactly get around that, you know how
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: to get to that, but I think that, to me
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: is where the church can best begin to confer that dignity.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: In addition to just I'm big on restoring the teaching office.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, I went through Catechism, and I thought that
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: was really great, And I think there's something to the
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: church providing the constraints for the way that we read
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: the Word of God and the way we understand it
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: and live it out. That's really crucial. And so I
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: think helping us create appropriate boundaries and understand how to
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: navigate within those bounds, which is also a crucial aspect
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: of what the church could do.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: But no, I love that. Yeah, I.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Often wear two hats as an educator and clinician. I
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: try to provide space that kind of unpacks the personal
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: narratives experience that provides them. But I've been in enough
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: pastoral ministry and context within the local church. There needs
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: to be a proclamation as well of truth, not just
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: creating a space, which I think is also needed. We
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: need to have community and provide space and accountability for that.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: There needs to be a as we're thus saith the
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Lord kind of proclamation of truth that needs to be
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: part of that, so that when we're in those community spaces,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: we're articulating that there is a as Jude says, right
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: contend earnestly for the faith once delivered. We need to
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: be willing to say that This is actually what helps
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: give meaning and purpose, especially in the despair of that
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: is just so pressing around individually and systemically all around us.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: We have this, this greater story. This is how Keller
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: talks about it. We need to provide a better story
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: because I mean I talk about my Muslim friends or
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: my Hindu friends. They have community, They have really good communities.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: They have strong marriages, and they're good parents, and they're
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: the contributing citizens within their community. In that sense, they
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: have all the things they need. And yet they don't
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: have a greater story. They don't have a better story.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: They have a story. But I think the way that
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Keller framed it for me that was so helpful. We
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: need to present a better story. It's not just that
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: it helps here, but how does this help holistically those
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: those ways in which we've been disengaged, not just from
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: others in our environment, but ultimately from God. Because my
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Muslim friends are living their best life, my Hindu friends
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: are having a great time. My atheist friends even can
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: find community. Like you said, they go to a lockouts,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: are to have a good old time, right, Yeah, they
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: can have that, and yet there's something bigger, There's something
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: better that I think starts with that proclamation that then
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: is lived out in the context of community.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: We need both those realities to be sure.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I think the last thing I'll just raise and maybe
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: we can talk about it a little more as we
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: get into the next episode, which we'll talk a little
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: bit more about anxiety and then we'll get into the
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: existential leg But there's this interesting theory by a gentleman
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: named Nungian who he talks about value collapse, and it's
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: really pertinent for what we're going through right now. Essentially,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: what value collapse is, It's like, we value connection with
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: other people, right, and so we say, well, how will
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: we measure our connection with other people? And then you
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: start saying, well, you know what could really, you know,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: measure this this connection I have with other people is
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: the total number of followers I have on my a
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: TikTok account and the number of likes I get, and
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: I'll know that I'm really impacting them when they share
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: my content. And so you pull these simplified metrics away
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: from connection with people, and now all of a sudden,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: all you're really focused on is these three simplified metrics,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: and you forget it becomes the proxy, the representation really,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: I mean this is a Boudaryard simulator or simulacra and simulation. Right.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: He talks about the map becoming the terrain, right, so
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: you forget about the ground and you're just so focused
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: on the map. And that's essentially what this does. This
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: value collapse basically says I do value this connection, but
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I don't really get anything out of this connection. I
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: do get something out of the number of followers I have,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: the number of likes, I get, the number of shares
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I get, and something out of that. But this connection,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: it's too it doesn't pay off as quick yeah, right,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: And so we start to diss ourselves from substance and
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: start to live in this world of just strict representation,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: which becomes relatively empty because a lot of times those
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: representations that the things you're getting in that representational mode
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: aren't actual signs that you have real human connections. And
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: so that again, that distance that's created, I think is
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: really crucial here. And it's not that we are more
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: isolated now than we've ever been in the sense that
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: there are less people around us, or we're able to
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: interact with less people. I actually think that value collapse
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: ideas sort of more what's happening to us. We've lived
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: into these representation, these simplified metrics that point to something
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: we really care about, and we've done it for so
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: long that we can't tell now that these metrics aren't
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: actually the thing.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Wow, we have the representation of it, we don't have
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: the substance of it.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when I can see that little number that
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: that that quantitative you have so many views, you have
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: so many likes that then, like, not only does it
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: give me a little dopamine head at the moment, it
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: presents this validation I am being accepted. I am getting
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: something in contrast to this other thing of human connection,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: where yeah, I might get some of that, but I
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: also got to give into it. Not only do I get,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: but I got to give into it. And that's just
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: that's a little too much effort when I can just
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: get what I want, this very utilitarian interaction comparatively to
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: this bidirectional connection right as we know. I remember working
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: with a couple one time in premarital counseling and they
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: were saying, well, yeah, you know, we need to get
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: fifty to fifty to the marriage relationship. I'm like, now
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: that that percentage is not nearly good enough. You need
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: to give like one hundred percent to each other, Like
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: there's a constant giving of each other that's expected in
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: the biblical narrative as much as what we see clinically.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: The research indicates that if you're only looking to get
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: what you can get based on what you give, that utilitarian,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: pragmatic kind of.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: Construct only works for so long.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: And this is one, I mean, get into some other
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: whole area of Gotman's research when he sees that, when
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: he sees that utilitarian pragmatic construct that's forming the marriage relationship,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: he says, it's only a matter of time before that
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: marriage dissolves. But yet that's the normative construct that we've
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: utilized in almost every other technologically based relationship that we
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: validate as the norm. Like you said before, we've redefined
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: what normal is at that point. And then to go
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: back to what is good, it's is this a cult?
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Like why why is this all here? Like this this
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: looks weird, This doesn't this isn't the norm because it's
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: not the norm anymore.
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: We we kind of shy away from it.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: According, yeah, well this is good. I think this leads
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: us well into the existential leg. We've kind of touched
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: on some of it during this episode, but I think
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: just to recap our society has a deep influence on
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: who we understand ourselves to be and on what we
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: understand dignity to bee and I do think we need
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: the church to I think we need to reroot ourselves
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: in the church. Stop thinking about it as a voluntary society,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: something we can or can't go to on a Sunday,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: something we're willing to sort of set aside. It's actually
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: crucial for us to be there, crucial for us to
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: be participating, and I think that then can become a
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: solution to some of the identity crisis and community issues
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: that we're seeing today. So yeah, that social leg is crucial,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: and next time we'll talk a little bit more about
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: the existential leg. So thanks, Ben, this is.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Great, This is great. Appreciate all these conversations, James.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, everybody else, thanks for listening. We'll catch you
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. I
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: just want to take a second to thank the team
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.