Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / HUBBY BEHEADED IN GARAGE, WIFE IN LAKE TIED TO CEMENT: Who Killed the Dermonds? Best of Crime Stories

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HUBBY BEHEADED IN GARAGE, WIFE IN LAKE TIED TO CEMENT: Who Killed the Dermonds? Best of Crime Stories · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Neighbors in fear a beloved
0:09
Speaker 1: couple found the hubby beheaded in the garage. Yes, you
0:15
Speaker 1: heard me, the husband found decapitated in the garage. The
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Speaker 1: wife nobody could find for the longest time, and then
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Speaker 1: she was found by fishermen in the lake, tied to
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Speaker 1: a cement chunk. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
0:37
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: Russell and Shirley Durmond are happily married and living in
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Speaker 2: a beautiful lakefront property Lake of Coney, Georgia. The couple
0:46
Speaker 2: is expected at a Kentucky Derby watch party with neighbors,
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Speaker 2: but don't show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone,
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Speaker 2: the Dermins don't pick up. Days later, however, arriving at
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Speaker 2: the Dermoin's home, the neighbor's surprised to find the front
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Speaker 2: door unlocked. Calling out their names, Nobody replies with.
1:01
Speaker 1: Me in allstar pound to make since we says of
1:03
Speaker 1: what we know right now about the Dorman's disappearance, and
1:07
Speaker 1: I want to go first to a special guest joining
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Speaker 1: us from Putnham County. The elected sheriff Sheriff Howard Seals,
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Speaker 1: Sheriff Seals, thank you for being with us. Isn't it
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Speaker 1: odd that the smallest in detail can raise the red alarm? Right,
1:24
Speaker 1: the flag of alarm. When this neighbor realized that the
1:29
Speaker 1: door was not secure, that it was unlocked, right then
1:34
Speaker 1: the neighbor knew something was terribly wrong.
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Speaker 3: A lot of suspects, but a lot of people here
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Speaker 3: in this community still do a lot of the doors.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, I'm very familiar with Putnham County.
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Speaker 1: I was a camp counselor there at a national forest,
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Speaker 1: the four h Rock Eagle Camp, and it is beautiful,
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Speaker 1: but it's also very densely forested with a lot of lakes.
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Speaker 1: And this home was on the beautiful Lake Otony. Those
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Speaker 1: are beautiful homes right there on the lake right, this.
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Speaker 3: Very well, this was part of Rentolds at Lake o'cony,
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Speaker 3: so very exclusive neighborhood of very expensive homes.
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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan is joining me, Professor of forensics at
2:23
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, death
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Speaker 1: investigator and host of a hit series Body Bags of
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you and I have been
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Speaker 1: to the scene and a very very extensively walked the area.
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Speaker 1: Not only is the dense forest an issue, but the
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Speaker 1: fact that this is such a high end property a
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Speaker 1: gated community where crime is very, very low. That's the
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Speaker 1: first oddity.
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Speaker 4: In this, you know, sheriff. The sheriff had mentioned this
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Speaker 4: being rentals rentals plantation for those of us from anywhere
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Speaker 4: around South approximate in this area, we're very familiar with
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Speaker 4: this location. You're talking about very high end living, and
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Speaker 4: you have an expectation of safety in these particular parts
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Speaker 4: where you know something this horrible and this is at
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Speaker 4: the top of the scale, Nancy, as far as cases
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Speaker 4: go that we've been covering Loath these many years, you
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Speaker 4: don't expect something this horrific to have occurred in this Rather,
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Speaker 4: I don't know how to say it other than just
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Speaker 4: kind of safe and bucolic location here on this beautiful
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Speaker 4: lake Ocone, And you begin to think about points of access.
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Speaker 4: How in the world would somebody be brave enough to
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Speaker 4: go into this location and how did they access this
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Speaker 4: home in this gated community, And it smacks a level
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Speaker 4: of familiarity with the area. To me, It always has,
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Speaker 4: at least, I mean, yeah, hold.
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Speaker 1: On right there, Joe Scott. Everything you're saying is absolutely correct,
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Speaker 1: but I want to hone in on it before I
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Speaker 1: miss a point. You know, I feel like an English teacher,
4:10
Speaker 1: you know how they dissect the sentences on the blackboard.
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Speaker 4: Yes, and don't ask me what a jarin is because
4:17
Speaker 4: I still have to figure that out.
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Speaker 1: But you just gave me so much information and everybody
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Speaker 1: on the panel, do I have to remind you we're
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Speaker 1: not having high tea at Buckingham Palace. Jump in if
4:28
Speaker 1: you have a thought, because although the sheriff has been
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Speaker 1: working this case, I'm sure he's open to any new ideas.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you mentioned the level of familiarity as you said, Okay,
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Speaker 1: if somebody said to me, okay, I want you to
4:43
Speaker 1: fly over to Oregon and I want you to find
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Speaker 1: Oregon Forest Tree neighborhood and go to this certain house,
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Speaker 1: I would not have any idea what they were talking about. Right,
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Speaker 1: We're in Oregon. You know how wooded Oregon is. So
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Speaker 1: where is this neighborhood? It's gated? How am I going
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Speaker 1: to get in unless I climb over a fence? And
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Speaker 1: do I have access to get in? And then you
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Speaker 1: go back through all these windy roads. How are you
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Speaker 1: going to find the place? How are you going to
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Speaker 1: find the victims? How are you going to dispose of
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Speaker 1: the wife with nobody seeing or hearing a thing? And
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Speaker 1: I grew up on a red dirt road, Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: as you know. So when you refer to quote high
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Speaker 1: end living, what exactly do you mean by that?
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Speaker 3: Let me just say this. We've got a link that
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Speaker 3: spans five counties, and the opportunity to get there by
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Speaker 3: water is infinitesible. Okay. Likewise, and when you talk about
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Speaker 3: where do you go if you're looking for Russell Durman,
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Speaker 3: you can go on the website of the Puttnam County
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Speaker 3: Taxis Sisters website and find out exactly We won't click.
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Speaker 1: But that would. And you're right, you're totally right about
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Speaker 1: all of what you just said, Sheriff. But that takes
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Speaker 1: me to someone with a boat, Okay, that means money.
6:06
Speaker 1: Somebody with a boat on Lake Oconey, which narrows my
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Speaker 1: suspect pool. Somebody that would take a boat to their home, docket,
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Speaker 1: commit the murders, and then take the wife's body tied
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Speaker 1: to a cement rock, chuck out into the water. Who
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Speaker 1: would approach this by boat. And as far as the
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Speaker 1: tax assessment, you're right again share sales, But that tells
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Speaker 1: me a lot about the purp. Somebody that's familiar with
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Speaker 1: the computer, somebody would think, hey, if I go to
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Speaker 1: the tax assessor's website, I can find this guy that's
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Speaker 1: very targeted. So Scott, when you refer to high end living,
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Speaker 1: what's that.
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Speaker 4: Well, you think you have access to all of these
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Speaker 4: amenities around there, not just the lake, but very high
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Speaker 4: end golfing. If anyone's ever heard of rental plantation, this
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Speaker 4: is not something just somebody off the street can walk
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Speaker 4: in and afford to do. And that tells you a
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Speaker 4: lot about the Germans, I think relative to the life
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Speaker 4: that they had chosen to live in this supposedly secure
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Speaker 4: location where they could live out their golden years in
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Speaker 4: this particular spot. And back to the lake, just one
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Speaker 4: more second here, going to familiarity, I think that it's
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Speaker 4: key because unless it was perhaps a neighbor that had
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Speaker 4: access to a boat that could do this sort of thing,
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Speaker 4: we have to think about, well, how familiar are they
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Speaker 4: with local boat ramps where you can launch a boat
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Speaker 4: to get into this location and you begin to think
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Speaker 4: about nighttime and being able to kind of navigate your
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Speaker 4: way through this environment, and the placement of the remains
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Speaker 4: is certainly key here as well.
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Speaker 1: So bottom line, let me understand this, Dave mag joining
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Speaker 1: me Crime online dot com investigat every porter, the cheapest
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Speaker 1: house you can get and when you your Joe Scott
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Speaker 1: Morgan referring to high end living his words, not mine.
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Speaker 1: I'm trying to get my head wrapped around that because
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Speaker 1: we thought we were living high end when we finally
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Speaker 1: got a washer and a dryer. Yeah, washer and dryer.
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Speaker 1: That was the big time for us, and we would
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Speaker 1: all just go look at it. We were not allowed
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Speaker 1: to touch it, of course, until we want to kind
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Speaker 1: of use it. But that said, did you know, Dave
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Speaker 1: Matt that the cheapest place, the cheapest house you can
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Speaker 1: get at this RENTLDS plantation on this lake is in
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Speaker 1: the over five hundred thousand dollars approaching six hundred thousand.
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Speaker 1: That's the cheapest.
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Speaker 2: It's an amazing, beautiful place.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, Dave Matt, as you and I
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Speaker 1: have discussed many many times off camera, I don't care
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Speaker 1: if the victims are rich, poor, middle class, if they
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Speaker 1: got a PhD or they dropped out in third grade,
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Speaker 1: don't care. My point is the level of crime in
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Speaker 1: this gated community with multimillion dollar dollar homes on the
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Speaker 1: lake front is zero. I mean, nobody is getting murdered,
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Speaker 1: much less beheaded in this area. That's where I'm headed,
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Speaker 1: Dave Matt.
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Speaker 2: Nancy, when you really look at this, okay, and no,
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Speaker 2: nobody's getting beheaded, nobody's getting kidnapped, nobody's getting murdered in
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Speaker 2: this beautiful place. But Nancy, this wasn't even a robbery. Okay,
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Speaker 2: the limit of the level of crime here is very,
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Speaker 2: very low. But again, remember here we have two people
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Speaker 2: dead in the most heinous way you can imagine, and
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Speaker 2: yet there wasn't It wasn't like there was a robbery
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Speaker 2: going on and they surprised the burglars and it blew up.
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Speaker 2: There was no robbery, There was nothing taken. And by
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Speaker 2: the way, doesn't even look like there's any evidence inside
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Speaker 2: the house that they were killed inside the house.
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Speaker 1: Who would be had the dad and tie this grandma
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Speaker 1: to a cement chunk and throw her to the bottom
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Speaker 1: of the lake. Who this is not your ordinary barbral
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor forensics. So we're looking at an
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Speaker 1: entirely different suspect pool.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, you certainly are. You're looking at somebody that has
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Speaker 4: that has a certain level of planning. You know, this
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Speaker 4: is not obviously some kind of spontaneous event where one
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Speaker 4: person says something it makes somebody angry and they just
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Speaker 4: fly off the handle and you've got an assault at least,
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Speaker 4: so homicide nothing like that. This takes preparation, It takes
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Speaker 4: tom and again I come back to this benchmark throughout
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Speaker 4: this entire case. It involves familiarity with the location, you know,
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Speaker 4: access and opportunity. How could you know this? How could
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Speaker 4: you be aware of tomlines? How could you be aware
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Speaker 4: of where to deposit a body and to do it
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Speaker 4: in a stealthy manner?
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Speaker 1: Guys, I want to go back to the scene. What
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Speaker 1: can we learn?
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Speaker 2: Listen, The same neighbor decides to look in the garage
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Speaker 2: to see if the Drmoan's car is there. It's there.
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Speaker 2: In the garage. The neighbor discovers Russell Durmont laying on
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Speaker 2: the garage floor, decapitated.
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Speaker 1: So the neighbor realizes that something is very wrong. To
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Speaker 1: doctor John Delatory, psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic
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Speaker 1: psychology and you can find him at resolution fcs dot com.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Delatory, thank you for being with us. If there's
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Speaker 1: no sex attack and there's no robbery, who would go
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Speaker 1: to the effort. I'm not just killing this beloved couple,
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Speaker 1: not just killing them, but decapitating the father and tying
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Speaker 1: the mom to a cement chunk and throwing her in
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Speaker 1: the water. Why.
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Speaker 5: I think this is someone who feels offended somehow. The
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Speaker 5: Dermoins offended this individual. The Dermans may not even know
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Speaker 5: what they did, or they might not even know who
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Speaker 5: this perpetrator actually was. But this person felt offended by
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Speaker 5: what was going on. And I think he was offended.
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Speaker 5: I say he because more likely he is the offender,
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Speaker 5: is that he But I think he was offended by
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Speaker 5: mister Dermott. I think a lot of it is probably
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Speaker 5: targeted because of whatever it was that that.
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Speaker 4: He was doing.
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Speaker 5: I think this is I think he wanted mister Dermot
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Speaker 5: to watch what the offender was going to do to
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Speaker 5: missus Dermott. I think that there's a lot more sort
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Speaker 5: of internal struggle strive for that. There's a lot of
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Speaker 5: anger that is associated with this that I'm not even
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Speaker 5: sure this family even knew existed or even knew that
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Speaker 5: this person existed before it all happened.
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Speaker 1: Okay to Sheriff Howard Seals joining us Cela does Sheriff
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Speaker 1: they're in Putnam County, Sheriff Sales. We hear doctor Delatre,
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Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that he's wrong. I said, let's
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Speaker 1: follow it through to its logical conclusion. Someone angry with
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Speaker 1: mister dermotd angry about what, angry about what he was doing?
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Speaker 1: What was he doing?
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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know that, but I agree with his
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Speaker 3: assessment of that because the assault of missus Dermot was
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Speaker 3: quite violent. She was struck multiple times through the skull
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Speaker 3: with something like a hammer. I don't know if it
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Speaker 3: was a hammer, but something like that. And that's particularly violent.
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Speaker 3: And there's some evidence that we have that I don't
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Speaker 3: want to go into great detail, that mister Durman was
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Speaker 3: present when that occurred. We do not believe she was
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Speaker 3: killed at the house, and we believe he was shot
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Speaker 3: only because there was some gunshot residue on his shirt.
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Speaker 3: So it's very much a violent crime, very much pointed
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Speaker 3: toward them. We've never thought otherwise, and it's but through
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Speaker 3: you cannot imagine what we've done from the standpoint of
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Speaker 3: technology MinC records. I mean, you just can't imagine. But
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Speaker 3: we just simply have not been able to find that
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Speaker 3: individual that would have had that type of animosity so far.
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Speaker 2: Russell Durman's body is found lying between the two cars
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Speaker 2: in the garage. He's wearing a short sleeved shirt and
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Speaker 2: a pair of boxers, and he's found lying on top
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Speaker 2: of a robe while his slippers are tossed to the side.
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Speaker 2: Russell Durman's bear feet are stained with blood and there's
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Speaker 2: a faint red trail smeared from the door all the
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Speaker 2: way to his body. Towels have been placed around impresumably
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Speaker 2: to prevent blood from leaking under the garage door. His
14:39
Speaker 2: hands are bruised and bloody, with a severe gash on
14:42
Speaker 2: the left index. Finger. Strands of Shirley Derman's hairtangle within
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Speaker 2: Russell Durmant's fingers, suggesting a struggle between de Durman's and
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Speaker 2: their attacker.
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Speaker 1: Boy, do I need a professor of forensics right now?
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, do you hear all that that's a
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Speaker 1: lot of forensic evidence to wade through it?
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Speaker 4: Certainly is, and you begin to think about the dynamics
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Speaker 4: of the attack, as Sheriff had mentioned earlier on Missus Dermot,
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Speaker 4: which is quite intriguing from a forensic standpoint when you
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Speaker 4: talk about what type of weapon this individual showed up
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Speaker 4: with or perhaps access from the home in order to
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Speaker 4: commit such an attack like this. It's very upclose, personal,
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Speaker 4: very bloody affair, you would think. And then you have
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Speaker 4: this contact trace evidence that goes over to mister Dermott.
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Speaker 4: It gives you an idea of the intimacy the proximity
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Speaker 4: of these two individuals is there as the attack is
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Speaker 4: going on, and you know, for me, I'm thinking what
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Speaker 4: would be what would be the end game here relative
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Speaker 4: to one of these individuals who have been married for
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Speaker 4: years and years and years Nancy for the perp to
15:53
Speaker 4: have terrorized them in front of one another. And so
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Speaker 4: that again goes to the dynamic of what the individual
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Speaker 4: that is that they're looking for the perp has against
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Speaker 4: these individuals. Because the level of violence we're talking about.
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Speaker 1: What do you make of the fact that Russell had
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Speaker 1: his wife's hair intertwined in his fingers.
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Speaker 4: I'd be interested to know how was it intertwined? Is
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Speaker 4: this something that had occurred as a result of hair
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Speaker 4: being pulled from her head by him? You have to
16:29
Speaker 4: consider that, and then you also have to think about, well,
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Speaker 4: if there's like a copious amount of blood. Sometimes, you know,
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Speaker 4: we slough hair, and many times if you have this
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Speaker 4: tackiness on the surface of the of the hand and
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Speaker 4: you're in proximity to loose hair, that can transfer onto
16:46
Speaker 4: the hand. So I'd have to know about the placement
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Speaker 4: of the hair. I'd like to know what his fingernails
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Speaker 4: look like if they and I'm sure that they probably did.
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Speaker 4: The State Medical Examiner's office did nail trimmings and scrapings
16:57
Speaker 4: on both of these. Well, probably not dermin, that wouldn't
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Speaker 4: have offered much information, but certainly mister Dermot because he
17:05
Speaker 4: was found in a dry environment.
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Speaker 1: I'm very curious because this reminds me of the Scott
17:11
Speaker 1: Peterson case where he murdered Lacey and his unborn child Connor.
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Speaker 1: Looking at these two in their youth so in love,
17:20
Speaker 1: remember Joe Scott that Lacy's hair wasn't just sitting on
17:25
Speaker 1: Scott Peterson's toolbox. It wasn't just sitting on a pair
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Speaker 1: of long nosed pliers. It was intertwined in the pliers. Now,
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Speaker 1: how did that happen? Same thing here, we've got to
17:42
Speaker 1: find out. How was her hair on his hand? Was
17:48
Speaker 1: it in between his fingers? Was it stuck on his
17:51
Speaker 1: wedding band? Was it stuck in blood that had dried?
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Speaker 1: Did it come from her head? In other words, was
17:59
Speaker 1: the root attached, the nucleus still attached to the hair.
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Speaker 1: Was it a transfer from dragging his body across the
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Speaker 1: floor and he got a hair on his hands. We
18:08
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to that, and that's very important.
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Speaker 1: Would you agree, yes.
18:12
Speaker 4: I would the dynamic that you're thinking about relative to
18:16
Speaker 4: two bodies, after when you have a multiple homicide, for instance,
18:22
Speaker 4: what's the perpetrator going to do with the bodies? And
18:24
Speaker 4: let's just say, for instance, you have a circumstance where
18:29
Speaker 4: you have two bodies that are essentially contacting one of
18:32
Speaker 4: one another at least for a period of time. Any
18:35
Speaker 4: number of things can transfer from one body to the other.
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Speaker 4: And I think probably the sheriff is certainly considering this
18:41
Speaker 4: and this ongoing investigation. He has to it to think about,
18:44
Speaker 4: you know, those points of contact along the way, both
18:48
Speaker 4: inside the house, in the garage and this mysterious vessel
18:53
Speaker 4: that we might be talking about as well as here,
18:55
Speaker 4: because you know, literally with that, with that boat, you've
18:58
Speaker 4: got a floating crime. I'm seen as well, you really do.
19:01
Speaker 1: Sheriff Howard steals with us. He elected sheriff in Putnam County.
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Speaker 1: What about the hair? I've heard the description that it
19:09
Speaker 1: was intertwined in his fingers. Is that correct?
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Speaker 3: We believe, and I believe what happened is mister Durman
19:17
Speaker 3: reached out to block the blow against his wife's head
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Speaker 3: when they enter, and that caused the laceration. This and
19:28
Speaker 3: also it was a compound fracture and the finger and
19:31
Speaker 3: that's where the hair was. So I think that he
19:34
Speaker 3: was actually attempting to defend the blow against his wife
19:38
Speaker 3: and that's how it got in there. It's pretty clear.
19:41
Speaker 3: That's what it is to me.
19:49
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now. Is an
19:53
Speaker 1: esteemed scientist. It is doctor Kristen Middleman, the chief de
20:00
Speaker 1: development Officer at Authram Labs. You can find her at
20:04
Speaker 1: DNA solves dot com. A renowned scientist. And when I
20:10
Speaker 1: say she is a chief development officer, she is a scientist,
20:17
Speaker 1: an expert in cutting edge DNA technology. Doctor Medlman, thank
20:23
Speaker 1: you for being with us. This has got to be
20:26
Speaker 1: a scientist like you, a dream, a cornucopia of DNA evidence.
20:33
Speaker 6: Actually it's a nightmare DNA evidence because there is so
20:38
Speaker 6: much blood, there is so much gruesomeness that belongs to
20:41
Speaker 6: the victims in this crime scene that it overshadows and
20:46
Speaker 6: overtakes the DNA evidence left by perpetrators. But yes, there
20:51
Speaker 6: is definitely a lot of DNA evidence here, and that's
20:56
Speaker 6: part of what makes this crime scene where you have
21:00
Speaker 6: to figure out multiple different types of evidence to test
21:08
Speaker 6: to try to figure out who might have committed this
21:10
Speaker 6: crime and if it was only one person that committed
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Speaker 6: this crime or multiple.
21:14
Speaker 2: Investigators began a neighborhood search and beyond for Shirley Dermot
21:17
Speaker 2: without success. The decapitated body of her husband, Russell Dermott,
21:21
Speaker 2: was placed in the garage with towels placed around the body.
21:24
Speaker 2: Early on, investigators believed Russell was killed elsewhere in his
21:28
Speaker 2: body brought to the garage because the towels appeared to
21:31
Speaker 2: be placed around his body to prevent blood from seeping
21:33
Speaker 2: out under the garage door. But there doesn't appear to
21:36
Speaker 2: be as much blood in the towels as would be
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Speaker 2: expected had he been decapitated while still alive. Where his
21:41
Speaker 2: body is found?
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Speaker 1: Which to you, Sheriff Howard Sills i' ed to Sheriff
21:45
Speaker 1: Putnam County, leads me to the question, if not murdered there,
21:51
Speaker 1: where were they killed and what was the purpose of
21:55
Speaker 1: bringing them back to their own home?
21:57
Speaker 3: Well that's the million dollar and that if I probably
22:01
Speaker 3: knew the answer, there'd be somebody in the back back
22:04
Speaker 3: here today. But we don't believe obviously that she was
22:08
Speaker 3: killed there, and while on earth they would have brought
22:12
Speaker 3: his body back. I do not know. He was certainly
22:17
Speaker 3: deceased at the time of the decapitation, So this was
22:20
Speaker 3: more of a preventive for decop flu and things like
22:26
Speaker 3: that leaking out from under the garage and door. I
22:29
Speaker 3: think that actual blood.
22:31
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining us, explain how a medical examiner can
22:36
Speaker 1: determine if Russell was decapitated prior to his death, or
22:43
Speaker 1: if that was the cause of the cause of death
22:46
Speaker 1: or decapitated post mortem, it was a.
22:49
Speaker 4: Post mortem decapitation or any severance of any appendance of
22:52
Speaker 4: the body. If it's in the post mortem state, you're
22:55
Speaker 4: not going to have what we refer to as this
22:57
Speaker 4: little focal, which means very specific areas of hemorrhage into
23:01
Speaker 4: the soft tissue. And what that means is that as
23:04
Speaker 4: the body is being traumatized in life, the blood will
23:08
Speaker 4: actually leach out into the surrounding tissue where the trauma
23:13
Speaker 4: has occurred. When we're doing an examination of a body
23:17
Speaker 4: and we see, for instance, something as horrific as this,
23:20
Speaker 4: we're going to look for hemorrhage. If you have, say,
23:23
Speaker 4: what remains of the neck, you begin to kind of
23:29
Speaker 4: circumferentially around the area where this has taken place. You're
23:33
Speaker 4: going to look for hemorrhage in there. If you're absent
23:35
Speaker 4: that hemorrhage, you can deduce at that point in time
23:38
Speaker 4: that you're looking at a post mortem or after death injury.
23:42
Speaker 1: And the sheriff seems very convinced. He said it as
23:45
Speaker 1: a matter of fact that Russell was decapitated after he
23:50
Speaker 1: was killed. The theory is that there were at least
23:54
Speaker 1: two perpetrators.
23:56
Speaker 2: Why what's Putnam County Sheriff Howard Zille says the evidence
24:00
Speaker 2: points to at least two people being involved in the
24:02
Speaker 2: murders of Russell and Shirley Durmot. The sheriff says he
24:05
Speaker 2: believes the couple was murdered in a place as yet
24:08
Speaker 2: unknown to investigators, and the double homicide appears to have
24:11
Speaker 2: been personal, not something that happened during the commission of
24:14
Speaker 2: another crime such as a burglary, as nothing appears to
24:17
Speaker 2: have been stolen.
24:18
Speaker 1: Sheriff, why are you convinced or at least two perpetrators
24:21
Speaker 1: that murder these two?
24:22
Speaker 3: Well, missus Derman's body, I mean, we're talking about two
24:26
Speaker 3: bodies here that were moved. She was disposed of by
24:31
Speaker 3: boat five miles down the lake. And I just find
24:35
Speaker 3: it almost impossible that one person could have picked up
24:40
Speaker 3: bodies and things like that and moved them around from
24:43
Speaker 3: one location to another much less six miles down the
24:47
Speaker 3: lake than tied the bag with the box and and
24:50
Speaker 3: all that. I just found that highly unlikely. At least two.
24:55
Speaker 3: It wouldn't surprise me. Quite can't through a more.
24:58
Speaker 1: Doctor Kristen Middleman joining us development officer at off Ram
25:02
Speaker 1: Labs who specialize and degraded or even old DNA really
25:09
Speaker 1: working miracles. Doctor Middleman, thank you for being with us.
25:13
Speaker 1: If you were advising a crew of forensics experts on
25:18
Speaker 1: how and where they should look for DNA at this scene.
25:23
Speaker 1: What would you tell them?
25:24
Speaker 6: I would definitely look at everything that was just like
25:28
Speaker 6: Joe said earlier, underneath fingernails, things that had touched the
25:32
Speaker 6: body that may not have been overcome by all the
25:35
Speaker 6: blood and all of the other fluids that were at
25:38
Speaker 6: the crime scene. Because the victim was decapitated that was
25:43
Speaker 6: found in the garage, you have a lot of DNA
25:48
Speaker 6: that belongs to the victim that may overpower any touch
25:51
Speaker 6: DNA or DNA that was found on the towel or
25:54
Speaker 6: the robe or anything that was around that victim to
25:58
Speaker 6: stop bleeding. So those are things I would say, try
26:02
Speaker 6: to find DNA that would be a higher mixture of
26:06
Speaker 6: the perpetrator than it would be the victim, just like
26:09
Speaker 6: skin cells, under fingernails or something the perpetrator may have
26:14
Speaker 6: touched and not the victim or the victim's fluids. Now,
26:18
Speaker 6: the other thing is you said earlier that maybe her
26:22
Speaker 6: fingernails wouldn't be useful because they were at the bottom
26:25
Speaker 6: of a lake. I still think that DNA could be
26:28
Speaker 6: pulled from something like that. We have identified people that
26:32
Speaker 6: have been chopped to bits and the suitcases at the
26:35
Speaker 6: bottom of a lake for decades bottom of sewage tanks,
26:38
Speaker 6: so we have figured out ways to overcome water and
26:42
Speaker 6: degradation that comes, contamination that comes with being in water
26:45
Speaker 6: for a very long time. So I would still look
26:48
Speaker 6: at that evidence as well. Maybe because her body was
26:52
Speaker 6: discarded before it was manipulated as much as his by
26:55
Speaker 6: the decapitation, maybe there would be more DNA her body
27:01
Speaker 6: that could be found that would be more perpetrator.
27:05
Speaker 3: That would be my suggestion.
27:07
Speaker 2: There is no evidence to suggest either of the Dermoms
27:10
Speaker 2: were killed inside their house. There is also no evidence
27:13
Speaker 2: of the exact time and date of their death. Sheriff
27:16
Speaker 2: Sills said Shirley Dermot was working on a crossword puzzle
27:19
Speaker 2: out of US eighty day that's left on the kitchen table.
27:22
Speaker 2: The Dermin's bed was unmade, and Russell Dermot was found
27:25
Speaker 2: laying on top of his bathrobe wearing his boxers and
27:28
Speaker 2: a T shirt. Which Sureley Dermom's body is found in
27:30
Speaker 2: Lake Aconi. She is completely dressed.
27:32
Speaker 1: To Sheriff Howard Zills joining us from Putnam County Sheriff,
27:36
Speaker 1: that tells you about what time of the day do
27:40
Speaker 1: you think these two were murdered?
27:42
Speaker 3: Well, again, we don't really know because of talking to
27:46
Speaker 3: the Durmo's children, we learned that when mister Dermot would
27:50
Speaker 3: get up in the morning, if he didn't have anything
27:52
Speaker 3: to do, that he would lounge around for several hours,
27:55
Speaker 3: sometimes with his robe and bedclothes. However, her custom was
28:02
Speaker 3: when she got up, she immediately became dressed. We do
28:07
Speaker 3: know that a man was seen or somebody was seen
28:12
Speaker 3: in the yard on the Saturday before the Kentucky derby,
28:18
Speaker 3: so we actually think, because of all of that together
28:23
Speaker 3: that this probably happened initially sometimes Saturday during the daytime.
28:29
Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious just looking at people's behavior. He still
28:35
Speaker 1: had on his boxers and a T shirt. She was
28:39
Speaker 1: doing the crossword puzzle. Joining me is doctor John Delatory,
28:44
Speaker 1: renowned psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic psychology. Doctor
28:49
Speaker 1: Delatory number one, I need to know the date of
28:54
Speaker 1: the USA today crossroord puzzle. And it's just striking me
28:58
Speaker 1: that this was in the morning, which makes this even
29:01
Speaker 1: more of an aberration, an oddity.
29:04
Speaker 5: Yeah, because they're unprepared, right, there's nothing to suggest that
29:08
Speaker 5: anything is going on in their daily lives that made
29:11
Speaker 5: them afraid of whatever it is that's going on. Even
29:14
Speaker 5: if there was an individual in their yard. It certainly
29:16
Speaker 5: doesn't appear as though that individual shouldn't be there, right,
29:20
Speaker 5: So there's a lot that's sort of just the routine, right,
29:23
Speaker 5: the mundane, the regular things that these two individuals kind
29:26
Speaker 5: of go through. They weren't expecting any of this to happen,
29:30
Speaker 5: so they weren't prepared. This is not so much a
29:33
Speaker 5: blitz attack, because there's nothing to suggest in the home
29:36
Speaker 5: that you know, all of a sudden there was some
29:38
Speaker 5: kind of fight, But there is something in which they
29:40
Speaker 5: were unprepared and they just kind of it was just unexpected,
29:46
Speaker 5: and instead of using force, the individual probably use some
29:49
Speaker 5: kind of coercive technique, whether it was a gun or
29:52
Speaker 5: a weapon or something like that. But there was more coercion,
29:55
Speaker 5: more verbal threats more than there was physical threats.
29:58
Speaker 1: Just Scott Morgan joining US Professor forensics. It's not all
30:01
Speaker 1: about fingerprints and fibers. Let's take a look at it.
30:05
Speaker 1: Joe Scott number one, the date of the USA Today paper.
30:10
Speaker 1: Was it her custom to do the crossword in the mornings?
30:14
Speaker 1: Were coffee cup coffee cups sitting out on the kitchen table?
30:20
Speaker 1: Was there a pot of coffee still in the coffee maker,
30:24
Speaker 1: Was there anything in the crock pot where their dishes
30:27
Speaker 1: out from lunch or did it look more like dinner.
30:30
Speaker 1: We know that they didn't show up for the Kentucky
30:32
Speaker 1: Derby party, so that gives us the clue as to
30:36
Speaker 1: the end. They were dead by that time. What else
30:40
Speaker 1: would you look for? Joe Scott well.
30:42
Speaker 4: Sheriff Sales has done the right thing by going to
30:45
Speaker 4: speak with the family, something we do in investigations to
30:49
Speaker 4: just try to get a take a temperature of what
30:52
Speaker 4: their daily routine looks like. And you have to try
30:55
Speaker 4: to understand that and are there any moments in tom
30:57
Speaker 4: that deviate from that norm those normal behaviors moving forward?
31:04
Speaker 4: I think that also one of the things. And if
31:08
Speaker 4: we believe that there may have been more than one
31:12
Speaker 4: individual involved in this, I think that it would be
31:15
Speaker 4: very important to try to examine any kind of available
31:18
Speaker 4: digital evidence that might be available from back during that
31:22
Speaker 4: time period, as far as phone records, anything that came
31:25
Speaker 4: off of any of the towers back then. I don't
31:27
Speaker 4: know if that's necessarily possible, but it's certainly something that's intriguing.
31:30
Speaker 4: If you've got one person in the yard, perhaps are
31:33
Speaker 4: they communicating with someone else that could facilitate bringing a
31:37
Speaker 4: boat around, because that's that's the rub, isn't it. You know,
31:41
Speaker 4: how do you get a boat into a location where
31:45
Speaker 4: you're running the risk in broad daylight of people being
31:48
Speaker 4: seen at their dock or their mooring location there? How
31:52
Speaker 4: does this work? So there has to be communication involved
31:55
Speaker 4: in this. I think that's that's certainly something to look at.
31:58
Speaker 1: And of course you know the age on question dot
31:59
Speaker 1: miss on dilatory. You really think too or more people
32:03
Speaker 1: could keep this quiet. No way they had to tell
32:08
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, a wife, a co conspirator. There was a
32:12
Speaker 1: reason for this murder. Somebody has to know why, and
32:16
Speaker 1: that leads you to who.
32:17
Speaker 5: Again, it leads me to someone that felt offended by
32:20
Speaker 5: whatever Russell Dermot was doing, whatever it was that he
32:25
Speaker 5: was involved in. Now, this could have been an ex employee,
32:28
Speaker 5: this could have been this could have been anybody.
32:30
Speaker 1: But when you say involved in, wait a minute, that
32:32
Speaker 1: makes it sounds like it's a victim's fault. How do
32:34
Speaker 1: I know it wasn't somebody that broke in and he
32:36
Speaker 1: wouldn't give up the pen number to his checking account
32:39
Speaker 1: or his saving his account. I mean, we did that
32:42
Speaker 1: cause someone to go into a fury, But would they
32:44
Speaker 1: go through the effort of driving up in a boat
32:47
Speaker 1: and decapitating him over a pin number.
32:50
Speaker 4: No, No, absolutely not.
32:51
Speaker 5: This is why I'm saying that this is about something
32:54
Speaker 5: that was going on within the individual that was specifically
32:57
Speaker 5: targeting Russell Dermott or else none of this other stuff
33:00
Speaker 5: would need to have happened. I mean that these two
33:03
Speaker 5: individuals are killed in very disparate ways, and they're dumped
33:06
Speaker 5: in very disparate ways, But I think it's purposeful. This
33:09
Speaker 5: was planned from the beginning that this was how things
33:12
Speaker 5: were going to play out, and everything is probably geared
33:15
Speaker 5: towards Russell Derman being sort of the ultimate target of
33:19
Speaker 5: whatever this thing was, given the nature of how his
33:23
Speaker 5: wife was beaten to death and how he necessarily wasn't.
33:27
Speaker 1: In the last days a break in the case.
33:31
Speaker 2: Listen, the case of the double homicide of a beloved
33:33
Speaker 2: couple in a gated community on Lake of Cocony goes
33:36
Speaker 2: cold for nearly ten years until Sheriff Howard Siles announces
33:39
Speaker 2: a break in the case. DNA is recovered from Russell
33:42
Speaker 2: Durman's shirt and is sent to a private lab for examination.
33:45
Speaker 2: The private lab confirms the DNA does not belong to
33:48
Speaker 2: Russell or Shirley Durman. Pubman County Sheriff Howard Siles says
33:52
Speaker 2: he believes the DNA is from the person who committed
33:55
Speaker 2: the murder, or at least somebody who is a party
33:57
Speaker 2: to the crime.
34:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, the double homicide of Russell
34:09
Speaker 1: and Shirley Dermott rocks their gaety community.
34:11
Speaker 2: Huddnam County Sheriff Howard Sills says, based on the evidence,
34:15
Speaker 2: Russell Durman was murdered elsewhere, but was beheaded in the
34:18
Speaker 2: garage where his body was found. The shriff says the
34:21
Speaker 2: injuries Shirley Drman sustained would have left physical evidence that
34:25
Speaker 2: was not found in the Drman's.
34:26
Speaker 1: Home, nor evidence at the beheading of Russell Dermott occurred
34:31
Speaker 1: there in the home as well. Where were they killed?
34:34
Speaker 1: What was the purpose of bringing their bodies back to
34:36
Speaker 1: that gated community home right on the waterfront of Lake Oconey.
34:41
Speaker 1: We are now hearing about new DNA straight out to
34:45
Speaker 1: the sheriff. Sheriff Howard sells where did you discover where
34:49
Speaker 1: was the new DNA?
34:50
Speaker 3: We initially took all of our physical evidence out to
34:53
Speaker 3: authoram Authorham did locate and did identified DNA. Some further
35:00
Speaker 3: work that needed to be done, and they have referred
35:03
Speaker 3: me to Sarrensen Labs in out in Utah and they
35:09
Speaker 3: have found DNA that they are still working on trying
35:16
Speaker 3: to isolate that we at least know both Author and
35:22
Speaker 3: Sarnson found DNA that does not belong to Shirley or
35:27
Speaker 3: Russell Derman and Sarnston is still doing whatever they're doing there,
35:35
Speaker 3: trying to narrow that down en up where we can
35:37
Speaker 3: get it into codis. So I reached out to them. Initially,
35:42
Speaker 3: the State Lab said there was no DNA. I'm not
35:45
Speaker 3: being critical of them. I don't know the technology at
35:47
Speaker 3: the time, other than the Dermots themselves. But after learning
35:52
Speaker 3: of the good work of Authorm and sarren Son and
35:56
Speaker 3: consulting with the FBI, that's where I decide to take stuff.
36:01
Speaker 3: So we're optimistic that that's going to eventually turn up
36:06
Speaker 3: something here, hopefully pretty soon.
36:08
Speaker 1: Doctor Christen Millman, joining US chief development officer at AUTHRAM,
36:12
Speaker 1: tell me about the discovery of the new well, it's
36:15
Speaker 1: not really new DNA, it's newly discovered DNA. Where was
36:19
Speaker 1: it and how did you find it?
36:20
Speaker 6: It was on the clothing, and I guess how we
36:22
Speaker 6: found it is the sheriff sent the evidence here to
36:27
Speaker 6: see if there was any unknown contributor profile that could
36:31
Speaker 6: be detected that wasn't previously detected. Once that was detected
36:35
Speaker 6: at our lab, we had to follow the interim policy
36:40
Speaker 6: for this type of technology, and that means that any
36:43
Speaker 6: DNA that is found needs to be uploaded to COTIS
36:46
Speaker 6: first and see if there is a hit and codis
36:48
Speaker 6: or a match in CODIS. Once there's not a hitt
36:51
Speaker 6: and CODIS, then we can proceed and build a profile.
36:54
Speaker 6: If there is a hitting CODIS, obviously the case can
36:56
Speaker 6: be solved that way. A lot of the times there isn't.
37:00
Speaker 6: If there isn't, then we can proceed and build a
37:02
Speaker 6: profile that has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers
37:05
Speaker 6: rather than twenty, and upload that to genealogical databases consented
37:10
Speaker 6: for law enforcement use, allowing us to infer the identity
37:14
Speaker 6: of the perpetrator. And so Sorensen is a traditional forensic
37:18
Speaker 6: lab that can build these CODIS profiles quickly and get
37:22
Speaker 6: them uploaded. That is what's happening now. And if there
37:25
Speaker 6: is a hit, that case can be solved that way.
37:28
Speaker 6: If there is no hit, then we can take over
37:31
Speaker 6: the DNA sample and build one of these genealogical profiles
37:35
Speaker 6: that will help us infer the identity of the person
37:38
Speaker 6: that left DNA at the crime scene. We can't say
37:41
Speaker 6: it's the perpetrator, but we can say someone that left
37:44
Speaker 6: DNA on their body at the crime scene during that
37:48
Speaker 6: time period.
37:49
Speaker 1: The clothes they were wearing at the time they were murdered. Okay,
37:53
Speaker 1: question Dodger, Crystal middleman joining us, Dodger Middleman, when I say,
37:58
Speaker 1: how do you find the DNA on the clothing? Specifically?
38:04
Speaker 1: What do you put it under a microscope? Do you
38:07
Speaker 1: treat it in some way? How do you see what
38:11
Speaker 1: other scientists could not see?
38:14
Speaker 6: Well, DNA techniques should be much the same and standardized,
38:18
Speaker 6: but maybe we took a section of that clothing that
38:20
Speaker 6: was different and sections that had been tested in the past.
38:23
Speaker 6: How forensic testing works is you section different areas of
38:28
Speaker 6: a bedsheet, clothing, anything that might have been found at
38:31
Speaker 6: the crime scene, and then you extract DNA from all
38:34
Speaker 6: of those cuttings. And sometimes you're lucky and you actually
38:37
Speaker 6: find a profile that doesn't belong to either one of
38:40
Speaker 6: the victims, and that is what the sheriff is alluding
38:44
Speaker 6: to in this case.
38:45
Speaker 1: Doctor Mintlman, it's amazing to me the work that you
38:49
Speaker 1: do at Authram. You've actually found something that other scientists
38:54
Speaker 1: at the time couldn't see, and it may hold the
38:58
Speaker 1: key to not just a double murder, but the double
39:02
Speaker 1: murder of beloved grandparents, a beheading. And I look at
39:08
Speaker 1: missus Derman to imagine someone tying her body to a
39:14
Speaker 1: cement chunk and throwing her into that cold, dark water.
39:21
Speaker 1: These perps have got to be found and your work
39:24
Speaker 1: may make that happen. If you know, or you even
39:30
Speaker 1: think you know anything about the brutal murders of the Dermans,
39:36
Speaker 1: please call seven zero six four eight five eight five
39:41
Speaker 1: five seven seven zero six four eight five eight five
39:45
Speaker 1: five seven. Now we've got up that there is a
39:48
Speaker 1: twenty five thousand dollars reward, but there is also a
39:52
Speaker 1: commitment for Metropolitan Life insurance for thirty grand Let's hope
39:59
Speaker 1: we can use it total of fifty five thousand dollars
40:05
Speaker 1: and promised reward for the discovery of information leading to
40:12
Speaker 1: the resolution of this double murder. We stop now and
40:16
Speaker 1: remember American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby, Huntsville, Alabama. Just
40:22
Speaker 1: thirty six. Officer Crumby shot and killed in the line
40:26
Speaker 1: of duty. Survived by grieving wife Taylor, loving parents William
40:31
Speaker 1: and Janet, two dogs and two cats, four furry children.
40:37
Speaker 1: American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby. Thank you to our
40:42
Speaker 1: guests for being with us, especially to doctor Kristen Middleman
40:46
Speaker 1: from off Raum Labs, and of course to Sheriff Howard Stills,
40:51
Speaker 1: still on the case there in Putnam County. Nancy Grace
40:55
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend.