Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Socialite Michelle Troconis Struts into Court, 'Was on Phone' as Lover Hid Wife's Bloody Clothes in 30 TRASHCANS

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Socialite Michelle Troconis Struts into Court, 'Was on Phone' as Lover Hid Wife's Bloody Clothes in 30 TRASHCANS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, I knew better up here in my head, but
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: I was one of the few that thought there was
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: a chance, a slim chance, a tiny chance, a sliver
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: of a chance, that missing Connecticut mom of five Jennifer
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  Speaker 2: Dulos could still be alive. And then her conniving husband,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Photus Dulos and his mistress Michelle Chraconis had to just
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  Speaker 2: blow it all up from me. When I found out
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: the things that they were caught on camera disposing of
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: in various locations all over town were bloody clothing, rags, items.
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  Speaker 2: Then I knew. I still did want to know, but
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I knew that this mom is dead. Have you found
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  Speaker 2: your body? H L n O. But nobody no case,
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  Speaker 2: that is absolutely not true. The mistress treconis heading to
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  Speaker 2: trial right now. I mean, I see Greece. This is
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Crime
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Stories and on Serious XM one eleven, just to jog
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: your memory. Not that you legal eagles. You know, Mark
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Sherman joining me, high profile lawyer and don't get mad Mark,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: but I'm going to introduce you as the son of
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Mickey Sherman, another great trial lawyer and friend this is
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  Speaker 2: your jurisdiction in court. We try to put it nicely,
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  Speaker 2: say your honor, may I refreshed the witnesses recollection. That's
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  Speaker 2: a legal term of art, right, Mark Sherman.
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  Speaker 3: Correct, correct, Well, look, I'm here in the courthouse. It's
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: a new here, Nancy. There's fifty cameras and the evidence
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  Speaker 3: is getting started today. They expected to go about seven weeks.
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  Speaker 3: You know, everyone's really anxious to.
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  Speaker 4: Hear how the state's going to start off.
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  Speaker 2: I can't wait, but I can tell how we're going
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: to start off by refreshing everyone's recollection. Take a listen.
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  Speaker 5: Location of your emergency. Yeah, I'm worried about my wife
• 2:27
  Speaker 5: and kids because they they left to go to New
• 2:30
  Speaker 5: York and I haven't been able to get intest with Okay,
• 2:34
  Speaker 5: they were going to New York.
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  Speaker 6: What's the license late on the car?
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  Speaker 5: Excuse me?
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  Speaker 4: What's the license plate on the car?
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  Speaker 5: Uh? I you?
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  Speaker 6: Okay, Well, what's who's the car registered to?
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  Speaker 5: It's registering to my wife's name, Jennifer Dulos. The last
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  Speaker 5: thing for me, Dulos d u l o els. But
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  Speaker 5: long walls not answering. They're not answering their cellphold I've
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: been texting and I see that the takes I've been
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: delivered responding to me.
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  Speaker 7: Okay, so you have like the fine your iPhone app
• 3:12
  Speaker 7: or anything like that.
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  Speaker 8: Thanks?
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  Speaker 2: Okay, what's your name?
• 3:18
  Speaker 8: Thanks?
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  Speaker 5: Photyshon pis doesn't.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Know about find my iPhone? Now? Okay, maybe someone like
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: my mom who lives with us. She has an iPhone.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: She doesn't know about finding an iPhone, but she's ninety two.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: How can you not know about find my iPhone? You
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: know many cases have been solved with find my iPhone? Now,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: what happened that day? It was the Friday before Memorial Day.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Take a listen to this.
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  Speaker 9: The Friday before Memorial Day, Jennifer Dulos dropped her children
• 3:51
  Speaker 9: off at school near her Canon, Connecticut home. She had
• 3:55
  Speaker 9: an eleven am appointment which she missed. No one hears
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  Speaker 9: from her for ten hours. That night, Jennifer Dulo's is
• 4:01
  Speaker 9: reported missing by her family and friends, and the search begins.
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  Speaker 2: With me and All Star panel. You've already met high
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: profile lawyer Mark Sherman joining us from the courthouse. But
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: first of I now want to go to Jen Smith,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: the chief investigative reporter for dailymail dot Com, who has
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: also been covering the case from the get go. It's
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: nw Canaan, Connecticut, and I've driven through New Canaan, Connecticut
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: several many times, and it's about an hour ten hour
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  Speaker 2: fifteen maybe ish from Manhattan. Long story short, I drove
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: through because it was too expensive for me to even
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: breathe the air. There a lot of rich people. You
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: ever seen New Canaan. I mean every house looks like
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  Speaker 2: a mansion. And that is where jen Smith, Jennifer and
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  Speaker 2: Potus Dulos lived with their five children.
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  Speaker 6: Correct, Yeah, pretty much Nancia. As you see, this is
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  Speaker 6: where the wealthy families of Manhattan go when they want
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  Speaker 6: to get a bit of fresh air, very expensive fresh air.
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  Speaker 6: And I send their kids to these prestigious schools up
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  Speaker 6: in the Connecticut suburbs. So Jennifer and photiuse Doulos really
• 5:12
  Speaker 6: fit the description of an incredibly privileged family. She herself
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  Speaker 6: comes from money. Her own father was a kind of
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  Speaker 6: financial wizard, very well known in Wall Street and Foties
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  Speaker 6: Dolos was a property developer at the time, he got
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  Speaker 6: some help from his wife's generous and wealthy family.
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  Speaker 2: Wait right, right, right, you know that's certainly putting perfume
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  Speaker 2: on the pig jenn Smith. I don't know if they
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: have that phrase over in the UK, but she perfume
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: on the pig. Jennifer Dulos father worked his rearan off
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  Speaker 2: and was brilliant financially. He worked, he made the money,
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  Speaker 2: not photos do listener, you said something about property development.
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  Speaker 2: He ran a construction company. My uncle built houses out
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  Speaker 2: in the mud and the dirt and rain, building houses.
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  Speaker 2: But you said he got help. That's where the perfume
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: on the pig comes in. He got what over a
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  Speaker 2: million dollars He got Jennifer's father to fork over money
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  Speaker 2: to keep his construction business afloat. Isn't that truth?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that is true.
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  Speaker 6: Help is probably an understatement. Jennifer's father really helped them.
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  Speaker 6: I think will her right. He was looking after his daughter,
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  Speaker 6: I suppose, but he really bankrolled this construction company. Photis
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  Speaker 6: described as pulperty development. Obviously trying to put covering on
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  Speaker 6: his own take there. And yeah, Jennifer's father really helped
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  Speaker 6: him stay afload for years while he was building property
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  Speaker 6: completely various projects up in that ukn and the unsurrending areas.
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  Speaker 2: In joining me is behavior expert former FBI Special Agent,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: chief of the FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program and
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  Speaker 2: author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual
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  Speaker 2: for Brek behavior prediction. So, Robin, have you ever heard
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  Speaker 2: of routine evidence?
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  Speaker 10: Yeah, because it really comes into someone's life bark and
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  Speaker 10: their baseline of their normal behavior that they're exhibit every day,
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  Speaker 10: no doubt.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like this to Mark Sherman, joining us, managing
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: partner of the Mark Sherman Law Firm. Mark. For instance,
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  Speaker 2: if Jackie Howard was not in this studio an hour
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  Speaker 2: before I come in here viciously complaining about something but
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  Speaker 2: getting everything ready, that would be completely opposite of her routine.
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  Speaker 2: She's always here and it's always ready. So if I
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: came down here and plopped into the chair and there
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  Speaker 2: was no Jackie right there with me, I would know
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  Speaker 2: she was either dead or in the hospital. Okay, that
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  Speaker 2: is routine evidence. She has a routine. And Jennifer Dulos
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  Speaker 2: had a routine. She's the mother of five. She does
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  Speaker 2: pick up and drop off every day, and so for
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  Speaker 2: her to go missing for ten hours and not pick
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  Speaker 2: up the phone, that's the problem. Mark Sherman.
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  Speaker 3: Sure, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the defendant killed her,
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  Speaker 3: but honestly, but I agree with you, it gets in
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  Speaker 3: as long as the state can get first, firsthand evidence
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  Speaker 3: of that routine, it can't just be speculation. It's got
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  Speaker 3: to be someone with the rest knowledge, firsthand knowledge of
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  Speaker 3: that routine.
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  Speaker 2: You know what you just did, Mark Sherman, and I'm
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  Speaker 2: so happy you did it. Joining me is doctor Jeff Klshewsky,
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  Speaker 2: forensic psychologist, author of Dark Side. Doctor Gilshoefski, thank you
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: for being with us. Did you hear what Sherman just did?
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  Speaker 2: And that's what the jury's going to do? He said, well,
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  Speaker 2: wait a minute, just because she's been gone ten hours,
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  Speaker 2: that doesn't mean the husband did it. See that's the
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  Speaker 2: first thing that went to his mind. Doctor Jeff, Well,
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  Speaker 2: I thank you.
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  Speaker 8: This really speaks to the idea when you talk about
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  Speaker 8: routine evidence and understanding that this routine has been disrupted,
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  Speaker 8: and who would have knowledge of this person's routine and
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  Speaker 8: it could be her ex housband knowing what time the
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  Speaker 8: children will be dropped off at school, what times she
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  Speaker 8: typically will go back. And oftentimes when someone's planning out
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  Speaker 8: of crime, they're obviously going to try to learn the
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  Speaker 8: person's routine, to know when they can sort of deploy
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  Speaker 8: to commit that crime.
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  Speaker 2: You're so right now. I love the way that Mark Sherman's.
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  Speaker 2: My mind immediately went with that doesn't mean the husband
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  Speaker 2: did it. Me thinks that death protests too much. Mark Sherman, Hey,
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  Speaker 2: Mark is joining us at the courthouse. Mark, you said
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  Speaker 2: there's fifty cameras. What does everybody want to get a
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: look at Photosdulos Mistress Michelle Treconis.
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  Speaker 3: You know, Nancy, it's a town of twenty thousand people,
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  Speaker 3: it's a tony town. It's a compelling story that there's
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  Speaker 3: so many moving pieces here that just make this case compelling,
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  Speaker 3: and it's really grabbing the attention of a lot of
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  Speaker 3: people around the country.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I guess so because everybody wants justice. Why are
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  Speaker 2: we so concerned because massive amounts of blood turn up?
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  Speaker 2: And Jennifer Duloss Garage time.
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  Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace.
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  Speaker 2: Jenna Smith's joining me, chief investigative reporter dealilymail dot com.
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  Speaker 2: Jen who exactly I just heard photus Delos blah blah blah.
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  Speaker 2: Is he the first one that called nine one one
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  Speaker 2: about her disappearance?
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  Speaker 6: No, he's not actually so on the day of Jennifer
• 11:00
  Speaker 6: look as appearance. By this time, Jennifer and Sochi's were
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  Speaker 6: not living together. They were in the midst of a
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  Speaker 6: really acrimonious divorce and custody battle. The first people who
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  Speaker 6: alerted the authorities to the fact that she had vanished
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  Speaker 6: were her friends. They were concerned about the fact that
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  Speaker 6: on this date she had missed several appointments that she
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  Speaker 6: was due to a tent after dropping off the kids.
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  Speaker 2: What were the appointments, Jim Smith.
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  Speaker 6: You know, I'm not sure if they were anything super
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  Speaker 6: out of the ordinary. We're talking about routine things. She
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  Speaker 6: wasn't really working at the time, and so it was
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  Speaker 6: things along the lines of like Gener's appointment.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, hold on, hold on, little girl, jenn Smith, do
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  Speaker 2: you have children?
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  Speaker 4: I do not.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, hopefully one day you'll have that joy that
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: I have now. Of course, before I had children, I
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: hate it when people said that. But now that I
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  Speaker 2: have children, I found out I was never happy. I
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  Speaker 2: just thought I was happy. My point, I'm leading up
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  Speaker 2: to jen Smith, two children, I might exulted. By the
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  Speaker 2: end of the day, I fall asleep sitting in a chair,
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  Speaker 2: straight up I'm like, whoa, what happened? This woman is
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  Speaker 2: working trust me in the home. But you're right, it
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  Speaker 2: wasn't like showing up at the office. For all I
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  Speaker 2: note was me, Yeah, it could have been a PTA meeting,
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  Speaker 2: It could have been a cookie se I don't know
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  Speaker 2: what it was. But they were onto it.
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  Speaker 6: She was not. She wasn't due to attend business meeting.
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  Speaker 6: But of course a mother of five is a very
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  Speaker 6: busy woman, working a lot harder than you know many
• 12:30
  Speaker 6: people who are in an office all day. Of course,
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  Speaker 6: that's not what I meant by any stretch of the imagination.
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  Speaker 6: But these were you know, what's relevant here is that
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  Speaker 6: these are a piecemeal little thing.
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  Speaker 2: Oh hey, I know what they are. I've got it
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  Speaker 2: in my notes right here. Jen. And also you know
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  Speaker 2: she was a writer. She did write for Patch dot com. Uh.
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  Speaker 2: And she was seen returning home at eight oh five
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  Speaker 2: am on a neighbor security camera. But it was two
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  Speaker 2: doctor's appointments in New York City, that's what she missed.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: I thought it was doctor's appointments. And in my notes,
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  Speaker 2: I've got that the nanny, Lauren Almeda and another friend,
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  Speaker 2: they were the ones to first report her missing. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: so that's the answer to that. All right, let's get
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  Speaker 2: to the blood. Take a listen to crime Onlines Dave Max.
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  Speaker 7: When investigators arrived at Jennifer Dulo's home, bloodstains are visible
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  Speaker 7: not only on the garage floor, but garbage cans and
• 13:34
  Speaker 7: a car parked in the garage. The car in the
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  Speaker 7: garage was not the Chevy Suburban the mom was known
• 13:39
  Speaker 7: to drive. Police initiate a search for her vehicle. A
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  Speaker 7: little over an hour later, in just three miles from
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  Speaker 7: the home, officers find the abandoned suburban by Waveny Park.
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  Speaker 7: It contains blood evidence too. Back at the home, investigators
• 13:51
  Speaker 7: determined someone had tried to clean the concrete floor.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. I love nothing better than talking about blood evidence
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: and joining me in a dish into A renowned medical examiner,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns is Jeff Gentry. Jeff is a forensic
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: certified Bloodstained Pattern Analyst and an ab MDI what is
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: that American Board of Medico Legal Death Investigators. He's author
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: of A Visual Guide to Bloodstained Pattern Analysis. What could
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: be better than that book? A Visual Guide to Bloodstained
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Pattern Analysis. Bloodstained Pattern Analysis for Death and Crime Scene investigators.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: And that's not all. He couldn't stop himself. He's also
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: the author of death investigation information to obtain during a
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: forensic death investigation. I know what I'm doing tonight, Jeff Gentry,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Then I'm going to
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: follow up and see how what doctor Kendall Crown's what
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: his analysis is as an overlay if he agrees or
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: disagrees with you, Jeff Gentry. So we're having a little
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: pop quiz, Jeff Gentry, So he is going to be
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: your teacher. He's going to grave your answer. They say
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: that that someone had tried to clean up the cement floor,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: how could they tell that?
• 15:22
  Speaker 11: So first what I read was that there was blood spatter.
• 15:26
  Speaker 11: Blood spatter is indicative of trauma or force being applied
• 15:30
  Speaker 11: to blood. So right away that tells you that something
• 15:33
  Speaker 11: really bad happened there, that there was some kind of
• 15:35
  Speaker 11: a violent act. There was also blood transfers, meaning that
• 15:40
  Speaker 11: these bloodstains were transferred to different locations throughout the garage.
• 15:44
  Speaker 11: So that's also indicative of a struggle or somebody was
• 15:48
  Speaker 11: fighting back after they were bleeding. Then on top of
• 15:51
  Speaker 11: all of that, you've got multiple areas of cleanup. So
• 15:54
  Speaker 11: the way that they can tell that blood has been
• 15:56
  Speaker 11: cleaned up is it appears diluted or altered. We all
• 15:59
  Speaker 11: know what normal blood looks like. It's red, it's kind
• 16:03
  Speaker 11: of brownish. But then when you apply either chemicals or
• 16:07
  Speaker 11: water to it, it's going to change the appearance. So
• 16:10
  Speaker 11: that's how you can tell that blood has been cleaned
• 16:12
  Speaker 11: up or altered. So it's actually quite easy if you
• 16:16
  Speaker 11: have experience in seeing blood stains on a regular basis
• 16:19
  Speaker 11: and doing the analysis. But it can really tell you
• 16:22
  Speaker 11: a lot. It can tell you the events that transpired
• 16:25
  Speaker 11: during a violent act or a bloody crime scene, and
• 16:29
  Speaker 11: I use it all the time in my scenes.
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  Speaker 2: Jeff Gentry, another thing that I like about you, and
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: you remind me a great deal of doctor Crown's. You're
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: so humble and modest. No, it's not quote really easy.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Most people would walk in and see absolutely nothing. You, however,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: and expert crime scene investigators would spot spatter. Sometimes it's
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: a mist. Sometimes there's a mist of blood batter is
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: down by the floorboards and they're just tiny specks. Sometimes
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: you have to bring in luminol and look at every
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: inch of the wall and floor. I wonder if they
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: looked at the sides of the car that was still parked.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: There was that car park there when Jennifer Dulo's was murdered.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Was the lover Michelle jare kind of standing by watching,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: but listen to this and correct me if I'm wrong.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Jen Smith Dailymail. Large stains and I'm reading from my notes,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: so I want to make sure this is right. Large
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: stains of Jennifer's blood were discovered in her garage, on
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: trash cans, and in her master bedroom garage master bedroom
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: of her home, the concrete floor, two cat trash cans,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: and the passenger door of a range rover. She impressions,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: according to cops, indicate someone had attempted to clean up
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: the blood, and I'm taking that to mean that there
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: were bloody footprints, much as we saw in the oj
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Simpson double murder debacle. Is that correct, jenn Smith?
• 18:19
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And the most significant area was
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: the area in the garage. There was so much blood
• 18:27
  Speaker 6: or traces of blood there that it led police across
• 18:31
  Speaker 6: the futures to believe that she was injured to the
• 18:34
  Speaker 6: extent that there was no way she could have survived.
• 18:36
  Speaker 6: There was that much blood there that's what they find.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: That's exactly where I was headed. You read my mind,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Jenn Smith again, doctor Kendall Crowns. I mentioned earlier Chief
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Medical Examiner, Tyrant County. That's fort worth. Never a lack
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: of business. Lecturer, University of Texas, Austin and Texas Christian
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: University Medical School, Doctor Kendall Crowns, What does that really
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: mean that there was such a huge quantity of blood
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: in her garage? They knew she's dead. She could not
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: survive this.
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: So anytime you see a lot of blood in a
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: crime scene, in no body, you know that the loss
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: of blood can result in depth. So once you see
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: enough to equal about thirty to forty percent of whatever
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: circulating blood you would have in your body, would would
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: be about close to a gallon. You know someone's died.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Are you saying you would find a gallon of blood
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: on the garage war or there is a gallon of blood?
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Think of a milk jug gallon. That's how much blood
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: is in our body A gallon?
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: No, No, that's about forty percent of the year circulating blood,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: So about roughly two and a half gallons of blood.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Well, where is the rest of the blood? I thought
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: it was all circulating.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Well, if someone stammed that are beaten, it'll come out
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: of their body and be all over the crime scene.
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: So if you see forty what you estimated about forty
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: percent of their circulating blood outside of their body, you
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: know they're dead.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: So you're saying it would take what a gallon of
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: blood close to a gallon garage floor for them to
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: know she's dead?
• 20:14
  Speaker 12: Correct?
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: And Plasan's in multiple locations?
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: He who's this?
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: This is Mark?
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just going to come to you. We're
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: going to hear about it in court. But go ahead,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: what were you saying?
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: I was going to say, I understand all these points
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: and they're valid, but what does this have to do
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: with Michelle Traconas? Are we trying photos Dulos today and
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: in this trial? Are we trying Michelle Traconis? And I
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: don't know if the defence is going to want the
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: jury to think photos did this, but Michelle had nothing
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: to do with.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: It and didn't know anything.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: He don't even gotten the tim Michelle Traconas she was
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: in the car and admits of being in the car
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: while photos of dolost Is throwing out clothing. I think
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: what was it Jackie Sure jenn Smith, wasn't he caught
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: on video going all around town throwing away what a
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: bra shirt? Bloody rags and that blood matches back to
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: his wife, wife Jennifer Dellis Dulos, the mother of his
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: five children. And miss thing is sitting right there in
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: the car while he's going from trash can to trash can.
• 21:20
  Speaker 6: Yes, no, yes, she was in the car when she
• 21:24
  Speaker 6: says they were on their way to get kind of
• 21:26
  Speaker 6: late afternoon evening coffee in town.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: What late afternoon coffee?
• 21:32
  Speaker 6: Yes, no, that's not a bit questionable.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Thirty trash cans? Jin was that on the way?
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Thirty trash cans?
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: That's what he says. He dropped off, drop off the
• 21:44
  Speaker 6: trash and she claims or insists actually multiple times, that
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: she has no idea what was what was in the bag?
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Her, that's what we're talking about, sherman, the one
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: that was having sex with the married man with five children. Her, her,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the one that doesn't.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: Make her a killer, Nancy, that doesn't make her a killer.
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: And I obviously that that's obvious, But.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I don't care who has sex with anybody. Cats and
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: dogs sleeping together. Don't care, couldn't care less. But I
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: do care about is who killed her and who was
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: part of it?
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: But if I expect everyone downstairs in this courthouse that
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: thinks she had something to do with it, But is
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: there enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt? Is
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: there enough of this circumstantial evidence to convict her? I
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: think that's going to be the issue in this trial.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: I don't think anyone's walking out of there thinking she
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: was an innocent bystander here, But is there enough circumstantial
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: evidence to convict her?
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Was I snoring? Oh? Okay, I'm sorry I fell asleep
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: during that, right, Okay? Now back to the blood, doctor
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Kendle Crowns. I'm just imagining if I can refocus, get
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: us out of the weeds where Mark Sherman just led
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: us with just his job. He learned it from his dad,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Mickey Sherman. That's why he won all those cases. Let's
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: get back on the blood and then I'll deal with
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: miss thing Michelle Traconis, who's supposed to go on trial.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: A gallon of blood. If I see a gallon of
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: blood on a cement floor or the garage, I know
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: somebody's dead. Is that right, doctor Crown's.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: It's correct. It's a little less than a gallon, but
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: a gallon you're dead.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Wow. So that tells me that it wasn't an asphyxiation,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: it wasn't a strangulation. It was either blood trauma or
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: stabbing or shooting. That's the only way. Can you think
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: of anything else, doctor.
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: Crowns, No, those would be the main ones. I can't
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: think of one trauma, stabbing, shooting. Yeah, that there wouldn't
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: be anything else. It would create that much blood.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: I'm so tempted to use a curse word. Robin Drake,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: behavior expert, former FBI special agent. Listen to this chief
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: of the FBI count or Intelligence Behavior Analysis Program. Wow,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Robin Drake. I'm just thinking. The word I wanted to
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: say was dumb ass, but I gave up cursing when
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: I had the twins, So I can't say dumb ass.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Because we saw in oj Simpson, Well, you could say
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: from the crime scene photos you don't have to be
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: on the scene to see bloody footprints, and here there
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: are traces of bloody footprints where so much bloody was
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: actually walking through it.
• 24:17
  Speaker 11: So one thing you have to look at too with
• 24:18
  Speaker 11: the blood is not only the volume of blood.
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: But what type of blood stains.
• 24:22
  Speaker 11: So, like I mentioned before, blood spatter is indicative of trauma.
• 24:26
  Speaker 11: So even if you don't have necessarily that entire volume
• 24:29
  Speaker 11: of blood that would indicate death, you have to look
• 24:32
  Speaker 11: at how these bloodstains were created, and if they were
• 24:34
  Speaker 11: created by force, that implies that there was some traumatic event.
• 24:38
  Speaker 11: And then also is I start thinking about how did
• 24:42
  Speaker 11: that bleeding victim leave that crime scene? And if you
• 24:44
  Speaker 11: don't see that bloody victim's footprints or evidence of them
• 24:48
  Speaker 11: crawling or being dragged out of the scene, you know
• 24:50
  Speaker 11: that they did not leave on their own free will.
• 24:53
  Speaker 11: So that is very much consistent with that person being
• 24:57
  Speaker 11: incapacitated and put inside of a vehicle and then driven
• 25:00
  Speaker 11: away from that crime scene. And it's very common in
• 25:03
  Speaker 11: nobody cases where there's blood well put.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: How do you tell the eight old blood mark?
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Sherman, You know what, little boy, I'm.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Fifty, nanty, I'm fifty.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: Why would why would age of the blood matter?
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: Though?
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: I mean, if there's a lot of blood, all of
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: the scene, of all of a similar timeframe, why would
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: it matter age or not?
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: Well, it's my argue would be that it hits from
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: an older date that's not so recent. It does cast
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: some doubt into whether the blood came from this past
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: weekend or a week and a half of Mark Sherman.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you one question. Does two plus two
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: equal four in your world?
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, So she takes the children to school that morning
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: that she disappears, there's a huge pool of blood, her
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: blood in her garage floor, in the master bedroom and elsewhere.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: She was just alive. Ten hours later she's gone and
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: there's a pool of blood. Wow, whose could it be?
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Do you think she bled out a week before and
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: managed to keep walking? I mean, I appreciate what you're
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: trying to do, Mark Sherman, but really, don't make me
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: take you back to law school, Okay, because I will.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: No, I'm just I'm referring to the minor the miner's spattered,
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: not the pool of the blood. Obviously, they know there
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: are different places, in different locations that some blood.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: And there's another issue, Mark Sherman. And yes, I'm pulling
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: your leg, but that's what successful defense attorneys do. That's
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: actually their job to find pot little holes in the
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: state's case until suddenly there's a flood of doubt coming
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: through those holes, and that's what he's doing, and that's
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: what makes them a good defense attorney. But in a yes, no,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: doctor Kendall crowns. If blood had pulled that morning after
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: she came back home from drop off around eight point
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: fifteen eight thirty, in ten hours, the blood would not
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: be comp lately dried up. Would it still be tacky?
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: It can still be tacky. I mean that's a significant
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: amount of blood. It won't be completely dried in that time. Prime.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, as Mark Sherman wants us to, you asked for it,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: and now you're gonna get it. You know what Oscar
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: will said, be careful what you ask my dear for,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: you will surely get it. And now you're getting it.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: What does the mistress have to do with this? Look again,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I don't care his sleep, so see, but when a
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: dead body pops up, uh huh, I'm giving it to you,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: both barrels. Take a listen to our cut. Five.
• 27:32
  Speaker 13: Multiple agencies took part in the search. Officers canvas the park,
• 27:36
  Speaker 13: handed out flyers and use canines and aerial searches, and
• 27:40
  Speaker 13: most dramatically, video searches of local CCTV cameras. Surveillance cameras
• 27:45
  Speaker 13: capture a man appearing to be Fotus Duelists disposing of
• 27:49
  Speaker 13: garbage bags in as many as thirty receptacles in the area.
• 27:53
  Speaker 13: A woman can be seen in the passenger seat of
• 27:55
  Speaker 13: the man's car. Police recover clothes and household items with
• 27:58
  Speaker 13: Jennifer Dulis's blood on it in trash cans around Hartford. Specifically,
• 28:03
  Speaker 13: the bags contained women's clothing, plastic zip ties, and a
• 28:06
  Speaker 13: white T shirt all stained. Police also found a stained
• 28:10
  Speaker 13: utility knife, a bath towel, and cleaning items such as
• 28:14
  Speaker 13: a kitchen sponge.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Oh hes a Nate Nicky's cleaning up blood Now listen
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: to Sidney Sumner Crime Online.
• 28:21
  Speaker 12: The woman in the vehicle with photos Dulos is identified
• 28:24
  Speaker 12: as his living girlfriend, Michelle Traconis. Police search warrants say
• 28:27
  Speaker 12: Michelle Traconis identified photos of the surveillance videos as photos
• 28:31
  Speaker 12: Dulos and admitted that she was the woman pictured. She
• 28:34
  Speaker 12: confirmed multiple stops were made to discard bags, but she
• 28:37
  Speaker 12: denies knowing what was in them. Dulos and Traconis, forty four,
• 28:41
  Speaker 12: are arrested charged with tampering or fabricating physical evidence and
• 28:45
  Speaker 12: hindering prosecution. They both pleaded not guilty.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: And a Jim Smith, Chief investigative reporter dailymail dot com.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Her response is, oh, I was physy on my phone.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know what happened. Be asked gym indeed.
• 29:01
  Speaker 6: I mean it's so suspicious stopping at this many trash cans,
• 29:05
  Speaker 6: this many locations. But she'sing she didn't ask any questions
• 29:11
  Speaker 6: of this man that she was living with, and as
• 29:14
  Speaker 6: you say, was just looking on her phone. Now you
• 29:18
  Speaker 6: have to, of course, wonder whether or not she's completely
• 29:22
  Speaker 6: making all of that up likely, or you have to
• 29:27
  Speaker 6: ask whether or not she really was that naive to
• 29:30
  Speaker 6: just be turning a blind eye not questioning this man
• 29:34
  Speaker 6: who by all kinds.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Of curious that my head is actually hurting and I
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: don't think so. I'm sure Mark Sherman that you don't
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: think so. I'm sure that's no. No, it's Robin okay,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Robin listen, Robin Drake FBI behavior analyst from my husband. Oh,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: this is like eating a dirt sandwich for me. When
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: my husband who dries, I call him Granny Lynch because
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: he drives so slowly. I'm like, can you move this?
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Tabatan for Pete's sake, when we're trying to get somewhere.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: If he's stopped thirty times to throw things in trash,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: you don't think I would be standing on my head
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: and the driver's seat. And not only that, when he
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: takes out a bloody bra or T shirt and throws
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: that away. Yeah, I'm gonna ask a question, Robin Drake.
• 30:21
  Speaker 10: Hundred percent, you know, and at the same time, I
• 30:25
  Speaker 10: acknowledge the fact that it's circumstantial. But what you have
• 30:28
  Speaker 10: here is and we said at the very beginning, you
• 30:30
  Speaker 10: have a life arc and a baseline of her. Michelle Traconiz,
• 30:35
  Speaker 10: her personal professional life, for her entire life has all
• 30:38
  Speaker 10: been about situational awareness because of the.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Job she had.
• 30:42
  Speaker 10: It's incongru with naivete. It's incan grew with lined and
• 30:45
  Speaker 10: deceiving yourself, with the types of jobs and people she's
• 30:48
  Speaker 10: been around her entire life. So for her to all
• 30:50
  Speaker 10: of a sudden say, oh, now I'm oblivious to this
• 30:53
  Speaker 10: new behavior that entered my life, of him throwing out
• 30:56
  Speaker 10: all these bags, it makes no sense. It doesn't hold
• 30:59
  Speaker 10: any water because completely incongruent with how she's lived here
• 31:01
  Speaker 10: life for the time.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: And there is another issue to doctor Jeff Kelshewski, I
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: love security surveillance, and I'm looking right now on my
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: little phone at photusdealos with a bunch of stuff in
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: his hands, going toward a public trash can. And guess
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: who has gotten out of the car. Michelle Treconis. There's
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: no way. I mean, I'm looking at her. She's out
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: of the car. He's out, and she's out of the car,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: and he is like three feet from her, maybe five feet,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: throwing away bloody clothes. So doctor Jeff, how can she
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: say I didn't know what was going on?
• 31:43
  Speaker 8: Well, you know, you see this. We already saw this
• 31:47
  Speaker 8: with Photis this approach to lying by acting naive? Jury's
• 31:54
  Speaker 8: do not they look at what typical people would do
• 31:57
  Speaker 8: in typical situations. Be typical that you would be so
• 32:01
  Speaker 8: naive that when there's multiple dozens of stops with one
• 32:06
  Speaker 8: garbage bag being put into different trash receptacles, are you
• 32:12
  Speaker 8: really that naive that you wouldn't wonder what's going on?
• 32:16
  Speaker 8: So again, you see this a lot where people don't
• 32:20
  Speaker 8: know how to lie after a murder's been committed, and
• 32:23
  Speaker 8: they try to fall into this. I was naive and
• 32:25
  Speaker 8: I didn't know what was going on, but the jury
• 32:28
  Speaker 8: never really buys that very often.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Well, the judge dealt a real blow to the defense
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: by suppressing all of our so called searches, phone calls,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: texts on her phone while she was in the car.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: But let me just explain, actually, I'll let Dave Matt
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: explain it what the state's theory is. And again we
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: are waiting right now for the trial of Mistress Michelle
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Traconis to start.
• 32:59
  Speaker 7: Listen, our investigators believe Dulos took a Toyota Tacoma without permission,
• 33:03
  Speaker 7: driving a new Canaan. In a video caught by a
• 33:06
  Speaker 7: passing school bus, that Tacoma is seen on the side
• 33:09
  Speaker 7: of the road near Waveney Park. There's a bicycle in
• 33:11
  Speaker 7: the back, and it's approximately one hundred feet from where
• 33:14
  Speaker 7: Jennifer Dulo's suburban would be found. Police believed Dulos rode
• 33:18
  Speaker 7: the bicycle to Jennifer Dulo's house, lying in wait until
• 33:21
  Speaker 7: she returned from taking the children to school. Then he
• 33:24
  Speaker 7: assaulted her in the garage. He then drove the suburban
• 33:27
  Speaker 7: with Jennifer Dulo's dead or unconscious inside, to the park
• 33:31
  Speaker 7: and transferred the body into the Tacoma. Just five days later,
• 33:34
  Speaker 7: police find video of photos Dulos again driving the Tacoma
• 33:38
  Speaker 7: without permission, heading to a car wash. Police were able
• 33:41
  Speaker 7: to find traces of Jennifer Dulo's DNA on the vehicle's
• 33:44
  Speaker 7: passenger seat of the Tacoma. The man who owns the truck,
• 33:48
  Speaker 7: Paul wel Jermini, is among the two hundred and fifty
• 33:50
  Speaker 7: people who may be called to testify.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: So let me understand, Jenn Smith puts Dulos barred employees
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: vehicle without their permission, and now Jennifer Dulos's DNA is
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: on the vehicle's passenger seat of that Tacoma. There's no
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: reason her DNA should be on somebody's the back passenger seat.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Is I recall it of the Taco the Toyota Tacoma
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: of a guy she doesn't really even know, and he
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Dulos borrowed the truck and was driving around with Michelle
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Traconis in the front seat.
• 34:44
  Speaker 6: Yes, no, Jenn Smith, Yeah, absolutely, And you know, talk
• 34:47
  Speaker 6: about horrible bosses, right. I just want to point out
• 34:49
  Speaker 6: that this employee has never been a suspect, ever been arrested,
• 34:52
  Speaker 6: has never been accused in any way of having any
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: involvement in this. Like the sound clips you just played
• 34:58
  Speaker 6: point out, he may well be called to to buy.
• 35:00
  Speaker 6: He's been very cooperative with the police. It really speaks
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: to kind of the character of Whoti Dolus, right. If
• 35:08
  Speaker 6: he's willing to involve very innocent people, including his employees,
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: in this, it kind of shows you what type of
• 35:17
  Speaker 6: money was and when.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: It comes to murder, there's no defense. I would just
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: quote along for the ride, I want you to listen
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: to police interviewing Michelle Traconis in our cut twenty one oh.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: By the way, she's worried during the interview, not about
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Jennifer Dulos being murdered. She's worried that photos Doulos, her lover,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: wanted to get back with his wife. Listen to this.
• 35:41
  Speaker 13: If he kills his mother of his five children, also,
• 35:45
  Speaker 13: who appears to have been wanting to get back with
• 35:48
  Speaker 13: that mom?
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: Or do you do his film?
• 35:51
  Speaker 7: Yeah?
• 35:52
  Speaker 13: Sorry, here he kills the mother of his five children,
• 35:56
  Speaker 13: and importing to do is you know, from what we
• 35:58
  Speaker 13: hear from other people and home, you.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Feared to have been wanting to get back to who
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: wanted to get back to her? Yeah, she's not like, Wow,
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Jennifer Delos has been murdered. There's a gallon of her
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: blood on the floor. Now she's like, who wanted to
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: get back with her? That's all she cares about. Is
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: she insane? I don't I don't really get it, Robin Drake.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: The woman has been slaughtered. Her five children are going
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: to grow up without a mom, and she's like he
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: wanted to get back with her.
• 36:39
  Speaker 10: In no way, it just shows that she the behavior
• 36:42
  Speaker 10: is indicative of the fact that the death is not
• 36:45
  Speaker 10: a shock to her and the self centeredness in her statements.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Let's hear more from the mistress. Michelle treconis again not
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: caring at all about the dead mom of five, but
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: all consumed with the fact that photos doss, fotos dulos
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: that lie in pace of crap. She's all concerned he
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: wanted to get back with his wife. Let's not cut
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: twenty three.
• 37:13
  Speaker 14: He was shown you let me tell you something about photos.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: Show what training.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: We want to tell you something that everyone in this
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: room is probably under.
• 37:24
  Speaker 7: Photos lies to everyone.
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: And the reason he lies to everyone he cares.
• 37:28
  Speaker 14: About one person in the world, himself, that's himself.
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: He didn't care about his first wife. He didn't care
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: about his second wife.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: He doesn't care about you.
• 37:36
  Speaker 14: He says all kinds of things to all kinds of
• 37:39
  Speaker 14: people to get what he wants.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: Okay, he manipulates, he controls.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: We have no doubt he did that to you.
• 37:48
  Speaker 14: He lies to you, so I know him.
• 37:52
  Speaker 13: You know what I'm trying to make trying to explain
• 37:54
  Speaker 13: to you.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: So he owes you, he feels he.
• 37:57
  Speaker 13: Owes you, and nothing.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: If he could put this murder on you.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Do you know you could hear her in the back
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: I'm going she only starts crying when they talk about
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: him trying to get back with his wife. That's all
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: this woman cares about. And I want to also play
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: you're hearing Michelle Tracontas herself speaking, and I want to
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: let you hear what who was that talking? Either Robin
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Drake or Jeff Gentry about calling her? It was Robin
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: about calling her the most hated woman in America. She's
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: not crying about the five children now without a mother. Listen,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: have you lived at the news all have you seen
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: your face plaster?
• 38:45
  Speaker 14: Honest with you, you're probably.
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: One of the most hated women in a perple.
• 38:48
  Speaker 14: You know and I'm not being mean.
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: So that's how this is like a golden ticket.
• 38:54
  Speaker 14: If you know where he could have done something and
• 38:58
  Speaker 14: could have where he frequents, if you could tip us off,
• 39:01
  Speaker 14: maybe he said something you ingest, something passing that you
• 39:04
  Speaker 14: can say you don't want that rings about maybe all right.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: But Jess Smith dailymail dot Com she never did. She
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: has to this date never given up where she thinks
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Jennifer Doulos's body is.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:20
  Speaker 6: Correct, She is absolutely maintaining that she knows nothing about
• 39:24
  Speaker 6: what happened to Jennifer Doulos, and I insisting that she
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: was never made part of any form of cover up
• 39:31
  Speaker 6: to assist Hotels Japan.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Mark Sherman, Yeah, I.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: Just I still don't see evidence that she intentionally assisted
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: photos with the actual murder.
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: If you want to.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Talk about covering it up, there's a very strong argument
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: in the state that's what hindering prosecution is the driving around,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: the dumping, the bags, the alibi scripts. But where no
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: one has pointed to anything that said she was aware
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: she was going to be killed and that she participated
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: in that.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: That's actually a really good point at Jeff Kosiski to
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: go back to.
• 40:02
  Speaker 8: An earlier point where the idea when you're trying to
• 40:04
  Speaker 8: get information out of someone during an interview, you know,
• 40:07
  Speaker 8: it's like these detectives tried to put her in a
• 40:10
  Speaker 8: position where she was going to have an emotional reaction
• 40:13
  Speaker 8: towards spite and want to rat out her boyfriend. But
• 40:17
  Speaker 8: to a point that was made earlier, they didn't really
• 40:19
  Speaker 8: give her an opportunity, sort of an off ramp to
• 40:23
  Speaker 8: get out of this. And when the points have been
• 40:26
  Speaker 8: brought up about, Okay, this woman is murdered, she's a
• 40:29
  Speaker 8: mother of five children. In those types of situations, you
• 40:33
  Speaker 8: want to give an off ramp that maybe gives her
• 40:36
  Speaker 8: an opportunity to show if there is any compassion towards
• 40:40
  Speaker 8: the situation, and that you sort of approach it like
• 40:45
  Speaker 8: you feel bad for her that she's caught up in this,
• 40:49
  Speaker 8: so can you provide us more information. They try to
• 40:51
  Speaker 8: put her into a position where she's going to be
• 40:53
  Speaker 8: spiteful towards this man that she apparently loves, and that's
• 40:58
  Speaker 8: a hard cell. But again, they didn't give her an
• 41:00
  Speaker 8: opportunity to provide her an off ramp by showing a
• 41:05
  Speaker 8: little bit of it's even fake compassion towards her. That oh,
• 41:11
  Speaker 8: We're so sorry you're caught up in this situation. Hey,
• 41:14
  Speaker 8: we want to help you get out of this. Tell
• 41:16
  Speaker 8: us what really happened.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, let me throw that to him, Robin jump in.
• 41:20
  Speaker 10: Yeah, So to the point exactly, when you're interviewing someone
• 41:24
  Speaker 10: in trying to inspire confession and offering that off ramp,
• 41:27
  Speaker 10: the off ramp's got to be in terms of what's
• 41:29
  Speaker 10: important to that individual, and a lot of times you
• 41:32
  Speaker 10: guess at it, and they guessed at it and missed
• 41:34
  Speaker 10: the mark. And that's why she never took the golden ticket.
• 41:36
  Speaker 11: She had no idea what that golden ticket was.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: M the channel Crown's way, Well, I would.
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: Just say this is you have a lot of the
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: blood at the scene. You've got multiple trash bags in
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: the back of a truck that isn't his. There's blood
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: in the truck and he's disposing of Bonnie part says.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: He's driving about this affluent suburb with his girlfriend Slash
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: whatever you want to call her, on her phone, not
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: paying attention. Somehow, I find it odd that she had
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: no idea what was going on and what he was
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: up to. But that's, of course my opinion. But it's
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: hard to dispose of a body, and the way that
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: they've not been able to find it, he had to
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: have cut her up into pretty small pieces and somehow
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: disposed of her torso with nobody noticing, including the person
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: in the chair next to him in the vehicle, that
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: he was disposing the.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Body with Jeff Gentry, what about it?
• 42:30
  Speaker 11: I actually have a question related to Michelle's involvement. So
• 42:34
  Speaker 11: this was obviously a planned murder, it was very clear.
• 42:39
  Speaker 5: But with her having.
• 42:41
  Speaker 11: Generated notes with Potus about the alibi, couldn't that be
• 42:46
  Speaker 11: considered involvement in the murder even if she didn't necessarily
• 42:50
  Speaker 11: directly participate in killing her?
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Well, you're absolutely correct, Jeff Gentry. What about it? Jen Smith?
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: And notes? We haven't even gotten to them.
• 42:58
  Speaker 13: Yeah.
• 42:58
  Speaker 6: So, when Sosi do A was trying to establish his
• 43:02
  Speaker 6: alibi for the morning at Jennifer Dulis's disappearance, he enlisted
• 43:05
  Speaker 6: the support of his girlfriend, Michelle Terconez and asked her
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: to walk him through exactly what they had done that morning,
• 43:13
  Speaker 6: where he was when he was their kind of additional
• 43:16
  Speaker 6: time stamp so that they could have it over to
• 43:18
  Speaker 6: the police. They literally concocted the story together of where
• 43:23
  Speaker 6: he was. Now, the question, obviously, is whether or not
• 43:26
  Speaker 6: it was a true story. Michelle insists that she didn't
• 43:30
  Speaker 6: lie and he was everywhere that they claimed he was.
• 43:33
  Speaker 6: But it's fishy to have to sit down together and
• 43:37
  Speaker 6: put together at the timeline on the morning of your
• 43:40
  Speaker 6: wife's murder. You would surely know where you were. You
• 43:42
  Speaker 6: wouldn't need to confer with anybody about it if you
• 43:45
  Speaker 6: have nothing to hide. That is the state's case.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: That's what hidory prosecution is. It's rendering assistance as someone
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: who has committed a murder, and I think that's where
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: she has the exposure.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: The trial set to start, we wait as just a
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: sun false goodbye said
• 44:03
  Speaker 14: Well