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Guest: Adaption System · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 0:59
  We are leaving for Africa tomorrow and recorded some podcast episodes ahead of time to air while we're gone. And one of them that we recorded was an email from you that Sasha read and talked about on the podcast. And, also, I don't even know how respond to what she did. Okay. But anyway, we wanted to contact you because you had such a unique perspective and your email was so fascinating.
• 1:32
  And so I thank you for coming on the podcast and talking to us all the way from Germany.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we live in Germany. Our body is in the mid-30s. We studied psychology from 02/2008 to 2014. And we started our training in psychotherapy fifteen. So you have to know that training in psychotherapy is mandatory in Germany if you want to get licensed as a psychological psychotherapist, that's a legal term.
• 2:07
  And if you want to offer insurance covered therapy, you really have to get that training, because there's such a sharp line in Germany between counseling and psychotherapy. There are like two completely different approaches. And if you want to get training in psychotherapy, you have to have a master's degree in psychology. And then, on top of it, you have to do your training. It will take between three and five years.
• 2:40
  And you can choose between four different approaches, which are psychoanalysis, depth psychology, CBT and systemic therapy. When we had to decide which one to take, we just went with CBT because it's the most affordable strain of psychotherapy in Germany. So yeah, we just settled on that. We weren't too fond of it from the beginning. So we also, in addition, started our training in the inactive approach by Aled Nijnhaus.
• 3:24
  Yeah, and we are like on our way becoming licensed and, in addition, becoming officially trained in the approach of Allied Neinhaus. In our private life, we are relationship anarchist. So at the moment, we are in like two relationships. And we share our flat with two rescue ducks. Yeah.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, so sweet. Ehlers Nijnhaus is the name that Sasha butchers and then just takes off with in the podcast. It's ridiculous.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's super hard to say. It's like everyone in Germany struggles so much with it. And luckily our best friend, she studied psychology in The Netherlands. So she is familiar with Dutch and she really taught us how to say it correctly.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: So it's a Dutch name now you have taught all of us to say it correctly. Thank you.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: You're welcome.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Tell me what is the distinction you talked about between counseling and psychotherapy in Germany.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. Counselling isn't covered by any insurance whatsoever. Normally you can get counselling on a private bill or at a counseling center that is like state funded. But if you want to get psychotherapy, which is like a medical or more medical approach, you will have to go to a licensed psychotherapist. And there were some legal changes in the mid-90s.
• 5:15
  Psychologists fought their way through all the instances of our legal system for like thirty years, to get recognized as medical professionals, because before that you were only able to work when referred from a psychiatrist and you weren't able to work in private practice on your own.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Oh wow!
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's a really unique situation. This concept of psychotherapy is like unique to Germany. If you go like to The Netherlands or to Austria or any other country in Europe, it will be completely different.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Wow. What has been good about that and what has been not good about that?
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: What's good about it is that like everyone is able to afford psychotherapy and psychologists are able to diagnose on their own. They are not dependent on the diagnosis of psychiatrists. What's bad about it, it's a lot of bureaucracy, a lot. You have to do so much paperwork. It's hilarious.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: I think that paperwork is probably the hardest part of the job, for sure.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Like, if you want to start long term therapy with someone, you'll have to write a super detailed letter that is proven by the insurance company, where you lay out all the symptoms, you discover it, and you have to lay out your complete plan, what you're doing in your therapy, and it's ridiculous.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. What is your story of getting diagnosed?
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: It was a struggle. It really was. When we got in contact with you, we really thought about, okay, what was actually our way to getting a diagnosis. And it actually started out when we were teenagers. We had our first psychotherapy.
• 7:50
  And we talked to her about our dissociative symptoms. At the time, we weren't aware that these were dissociative symptoms. We thought, okay, they are just people living in our head. And she totally avoided the topic.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Oh no!
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: We really like asked through our whole system if anyone had any memory of her responding to our stories and no one is able to recollect anything about that. So she completely avoided it. That's really good. Yeah, and she was a child therapist. And when we turned 18, she said, Okay, now you're 18, now you have to get out of here.
• 8:49
  Which isn't actually correct. Normally, like if you start psychotherapy in Germany when you're underage, you are able to stay in the therapy minimum until you're 41 21. So she just tried to get us out because I guess she was freaked out by our symptoms.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: So you've had the same common experience that so many people with DID have, of either having bad therapists or therapists who don't understand or therapists who don't listen or respond. You've been through that too.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was actually the same. And when we like first discovered that there was something like dissociation or DID, we found a book on DID at the public library and read it when we were like 17 maybe. We thought, okay, this has to be like a thing in psychotherapy. People have to know about it. It's an official diagnosis.
• 10:00
  People have to have training on it. And we were super shocked that, like, no one actually knew what this was.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: How did you end up getting help then?
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: When we moved to another city for our bachelor's training. We ended up at a women's counseling center that was specialized in sexual violence. And they offered a group therapy actually for OSDD. It was we were super lucky that they offered this group therapy to us and that, like they took our stories for granted and they said, okay, you maybe have this and you can come to our group therapy. And they also referred us to the Medical School of Hanover.
• 10:52
  They have like a research group on dissociative disorders. There we completed the SKID D interview.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: How long did that take?
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Actually, for us it only took ninety minutes. Which is the minimum. You know, I went there as host and no one else showed up. So we went through it super smoothly. And so we ended up with, like, only a diagnosis of complex PTSD and Depersonalization Disorder.
• 11:29
  And the sad news, you don't have any DID. Go away.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Oh no!
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. This, like, led into a massive crisis for us.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: So, in a way, as a system, one of those times where one part is trying to function and get you through something as a system but it backfires because needed others to present.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, correctly. And I guess they even didn't know about OSDD or that it was a thing, so she couldn't comprehend what we told them. Like we said, okay, there are others, but we don't lose that much time. So they maybe thought, okay, they make it up, it's like borderline personality disorder or something like that.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Oh no, that's not the same at all.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: It isn't, but that's what they came up with. Like they wrote, okay, it's complex PTSD and like some traits of borderline.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: So what happened next?
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: We, because of that crisis, we went to a psychiatric hospital for some time, for six weeks. And there we actually received a DID diagnosis, because we really, really helped getting this diagnosis. You know, we knew which buttons to press to get this diagnosis, because we were in bad need of therapy to getting any sort of communication installed. So we thought, okay, only if we like present them as the typical DID case we will get that help.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: So, working together as a system, you were able to present enough to be able to get a diagnosis?
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't that hard. We just told them, yeah, there are people living in our head and we're losing time and they have children and they have toys in the outside world, stuff like that. And they were all like, yeah, check mark, check mark, check mark.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: So they were people who understood already then?
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Kind of, yeah. They gave us the right diagnosis, but actually not the right treatment, so it didn't work out too well.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: So even then, they only got part of it right. You finally got the diagnosis, but not treatment. Yeah. Wow! So then what happened?
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, so after that, we tried two different therapists, and we had to quit the latter because of our master's program starting. We moved to another city, so we had to quit. And then we took off from therapy for, let me think, seven years, actually.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: We did that after graduate school, too.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes it's not the right time to dive into your past. Yeah, so we, like, stayed off the medical system at all. And we only restarted psychotherapy last year with our current therapist. He actually is one of our supervisors. Yeah, and he also got trained by Alert Nijnhaus, so yeah, we started off with him.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: How do you feel that that's working compared to what you've been through? It sounds like you've gotten one piece at a time. The wrong therapist and then the right hospital and diagnosis but the wrong treatment and then now finally some treatment.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Actually, we think it's like our achievement, because we worked so hard into getting to know everything about dissociation, so that we really could make the right decisions. Wow. So we really, really checked if he was like the right therapist for us, if he knew the relevant things about DID.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: So you empowered yourself that way?
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We became like experts on DID over the years.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: And, well, and not just experts, but then even took something where you were sort of being swept along in the current and kind of became proactive about it. You you you were able to intervene in your own behalf and say, this is what we need. Are you a good match to actually help me? Because you knew so much. You became an expert but you also used that knowledge well.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we actually also used this knowledge on ourselves. So, like, self treat our system. We can like do a lot between sessions, because, you know, we all have we have the right tools available for us.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's powerful. So, you've done a lot of your own work.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: We just we had this like this key problem that we couldn't get any inner communication going. Or like there was communication, but not communication between me and the rest of the system. Because I am, as our host, I have aphantasia. I cannot access the inner world and I cannot talk to the others directly, because I don't hear them. So, it was a little bit tricky to get this communication going.
• 17:50
  And one day in therapy, we actually got this communication going by default, as this was like a rocket start. Like, from that day on, we made so much progress. We installed so much in the inner world.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Are some of the things that have been helpful in the inner world for you all?
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, so we installed inner safe place, where, like, the littles can hide, when there's some triggering stuff going on on the outside. We actually, like, also got some magical stuff in the inner world, for example some basing salt for like an inner basing tap, to relieve some pain from flashbacks, stuff like that. Yeah, and we learned from you about this lighting system. Oh, right, right! Yeah.
• 19:00
  And we installed something similar as well. I'm super dependent on our co host, because he's the one who gets all the communication going between me and the others. Like, when the others are co fronting, I can communicate with them directly, but he's the only one I can communicate with, even if he's like further into our mindscape.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, interesting.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: And so I really need him, and sometimes he is on hiatus for like a weekend or so, because he's all worn up. And then it's a struggle to get any communication going, so we installed this lighting system. So, I can, you know, can get the others or I can let the others know that I need their help.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: That's amazing. Yeah. We had a similar experience as far as some being able to communicate internally and others not, but how to get in English they say get the ball rolling, how to get it started to Yeah. Make those connections so that communication was even possible. Like, once you make the connections, then you can practice different ways of what that's like and how it works and what's hard about it and how to smooth things out.
• 20:22
  But just getting started with that that communication to make those first connections is really hard. And those lights helped us so much.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we really we listened to our to your podcast and we thought, wow, that's what we need. That's a good idea.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: I'm glad it helped. Yeah. How have you taken all that you've learned about DID to help some of your clients?
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, so we had our first internship of our psychotherapy training at a trauma hospital and there we saw a lot of clients with dissociative symptoms. And sadly, we were like the only ones at that whole hospital or in this whole ward, who were like in any way informed about dissociation and dissociative disorders.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Why is that? Why do you think that
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: is? Actually, Elad Nijnhaus, he says, okay, there is like some kind of dissociation going on between PTSD and dissociative disorders. So, in the journals, or even in the diagnostic criteria, they really don't talk about dissociation as part of PTSD.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Like, it's a historical thing. Dissociative disorders is like this hysteria line of psychiatric disorders, where like these women in their wombs and they are cuckoo. And on the other side, are PTSD like soldiers, they went to combat and they come back home and they are broken, stuff like that. They really suffered something and like not this weird childhood stuff that these crazy women just made up in their heads.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah. So what happened when you were in your internship and saw these people that no one else understood what was going on?
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Like, I tried to inform my colleagues about the association and it worked out to some degree, especially the colleagues that were like on my level of their training, who were also interns. They really listened to me and made some progress with the therapy they offered. For other colleagues, was like, okay, you are the one that can deal with these crazy clients that dissociate and stuff. So a lot of clients were actually referred to me because they were dissociative. So
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: no one else wanted to deal with them, so they sent them to you?
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, basically.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Wow! Was that difficult when it was one of your own issues?
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's due to my aphantasia, but it's super easy for me to deal, like, with complex trauma and also DID cases. Now, it's super easy for me to navigate in their inside world, without getting stuck in there myself.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, fascinating! Fascinating! How does that work?
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: For me, it's super easy to get creative about interventions for DID clients. Like, okay, there's this problem that there's no communication going and they locked away one of their authors because they are afraid of her. And then I think, okay, what should we do? And then I think, okay, maybe we should install a telephone so they can like get in contact with her without, like, facing her directly. And then we get this communication via telephone going, you know, and then, like, we can progress from that.
• 24:48
  And that's some stuff that, like normal therapists who are not familiar with DID, they wouldn't even think about it. They would like teach some skills or stuff like that to get down some anger or
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: so. Right. Yeah. So they would just, the other therapists would just sort of keep putting band aids on the symptoms rather than helping the system work together.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right. Because, you know, they don't like think in this inner landscape, don't have like this three d model of dissociative symptoms or dissociative systems. For them, it's like just symptoms. It's a list where you can checkmark. But it's not like a whole structure, and it's not like meaningful to them.
• 25:42
  That is what I learned from Elad Neinhaus, that like every symptom is meaningful, that every symptom is a solution to a problem that occurred in the past and that became dysfunctional over time. But it's not just a symptom, it's always a solution for something.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: That's a powerful thing that you've just said. Every symptom is a solution. That came from Nienhuis?
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like You cannot root it to him, but like this is his world view or his like His view he has of humans or human minds. Yeah.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: So every symptom was meaningful and had purpose in the beginning and then over time becomes dysfunctional. In a now time is safe kind of way, like in the current context where the body is, that symptom is now out of context because it belongs in the past. Yeah. Oh, wow.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: That's Because he says, and I guess it's basically true, that dissociation is always like multiple i's, even like in PTSD. There is like minimum two separate eyes. You can like communicate with like the symptoms in quotation marks directly And you can like ask them, okay, what is the meaning? Why do you do it? Nienhaus calls it like the therapeutic internet.
• 27:37
  It's w w w. Who do's what and for what? With what goal?
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Wow. The thing I love about that is not just identifying what the actual need is but also how validating it is of where it came from in the beginning and why it was needed then.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Not just stop acting out because you shouldn't be acting like That's really powerful.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: And I guess a lot of therapists struggle with like destructive or bad or acting out alters because they treat them as bad or acting out. Some behave in that way because they view them that way.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: So they live up to it? Yeah. How would you work with a destructive alter or an alter that was struggling in that way?
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Normally, I do this intervention, it is called multi speak in the approach of L. D. N. House, where you get like inner conference room going, and then you start the communication between the alters. For example, there's this alter that is constantly self harming.
• 29:10
  And then you ask like that alter, kind of in front of the others. Okay, so why do you do it? What is the purpose of hurting yourself? And then they will come up with an answer to it. And then you will say: Okay, so it's necessary that you do it.
• 29:33
  And they will say: Yeah, it's necessary. And you say: Okay, but I guess you don't like it that much. They mostly most of the time they are like: Yeah, I have to do it, but I don't like it, because the others they will avoid me because of my actions. And then you, like, talk to the others and say, okay, have you heard what she or he just said? Most of the time, they are like, yeah, we heard it.
• 30:01
  And you ask them, okay, so do you get why she has to hurt the body? And then they are like they are super often like, not really. Yeah, maybe, but it's also destructive and it makes us anxious and stuff. And then you say, okay, but how much do you get it, like in percent or stuff like that? And they say maybe seventy percent.
• 30:31
  Okay. Then you like talk to the other one and say, okay, they get what you do for seventy percent. So, you know, they they get closer through it and they start to avoiding each other less because they get why the others are acting the way they are acting.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: So increasing communication and cooperation both?
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then you try to find out how the others can help the author that is self harming, to act in a different way, to, for example, release that tension in another way. And normally, there's often an inner self helper, like a part who knows a lot about the system and has a lot of communication going with others, you can find a solution what to do instead of self harming.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: That's amazing. It doesn't just stop the behavior that's hurting the body that they share. It's also empowering the ones who are hurting to get help. Also recognizing the one that's hurting the body as one of the ones who also needs help.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And to really state that they all share the same goal and the same goal or the goal is surviving. Even alters who try to kill, like the whole person or the body or themselves or whatever, they kind of try to survive. Try to get away from the pain. And it's mostly not about killing yourself, but to make the pain stop.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: So it's like a weird idea of, like, surviving.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Well, and there's so often this attempt to build congruence. And so when you can't when the inside and the outside don't feel the same or others don't recognize what you're feeling, doing things or acting out what you're feeling and experiencing so that others do too and hurting the body is one way of doing that.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: So when you're able to talk and communicate and cooperate with understand each other more then that congruence builds up and is more consistent. So the need to act it out is much less.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And normally like humans work in that way, they have an urgent need that really needs to be fulfilled and they try something to get it fulfilled and they are like not seen or their needs are not met and then they like do more of the same behaviour. They do not switch like strategies, but they do more of it. So, if an alter is self harming and is not seen by the others but locked away inside, it will self harm more. Yes.
• 33:52
  Because that's their way of communication, it's their language.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: So, almost like the more isolated they are, the louder they have to be.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And especially child orders, they often don't have words or cannot like elaborately talk about things, but they like have to act out. So, show some, like, social, some physical behavior, some motor action. That's really powerful.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You are helping so many people.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: But it's also a slippery road.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: I'm just thinking with you in just one place there, how many people that you're helping and over time and how many people there are all around that need people like you.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, really try to improve the knowledge on dissociation with the therapists, you know, I'm friends with, I'm working together, being in inter vision with them, because it's super important. Like OSDD, I guess, is or OSDD is the most common dissociative disorder. And I kind of believe it's like the most common psychiatric disorder as well. That's And it's overseen so many times.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: That's amazing. What insights, you talked about the inner world specifically and how you're able to be creative and sort of navigate that. What other insights do you bring being a survivor yourself?
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: I guess to be compassionate, to believe that people had traumatic experiences, that people actually do super cruel stuff, that only because, like, a traumatic story is bizarre, it doesn't mean it's not real. And a lot of my clients, like, feedbacked me that I was the first one they could open up about their trauma, and they really felt our connection. I was the first one actually to ask them specific questions. Because, you know, some day in the past they talked to a psychiatrist and said: Yeah, I hear voices. And then they got locked away or stuff like that.
• 36:40
  So they never brought it up again. And I directly asked them: Do you hear voices? And I said: Okay, I just want to ask you this question, because it's super common to hear voices and it's not about being crazy, it's just like a normal human experience. And sometimes I also said to them: Okay, I asked you this question and you were able to talk with me about it without fearing any consequences, but please, please be super careful in the future with whom you share that information. Don't open up about it to every psychiatrist, because a lot of them will not handle it well.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: So, teaching them some boundaries even.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like it's teaching people to like navigate relationships, to like see red flags and to find good therapeutic relationships.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: What do you think makes it harder to help other survivors when you are one yourself?
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Actually, it's not the clients, it's always the superiors.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, interesting.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I had like a few superiors in a row who were super narcissistic and who really lost their shit a lot of times and that's the hard part.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Was it their response to you or was it the trigger in how they behaved?
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: I guess it's their general behavior because they really struggle with their responsibilities. But for us, every kind of anger or aggression is super triggering, so it's always hard to navigate it.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: How did you find the supervisor that you're comfortable with now?
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: Actually, he teaches at the institute we are getting trained at and he talked about okay, I'm in training with Elle at Nijnhaus and I'm super fond of that approach and it clicked. We just said okay, yeah, that's the right one.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: That's amazing. Yeah. So are you out as someone with DID or not?
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Kind of. So we always super suspicious if we will get called out or something like that, because you are not able to complete your psychotherapy training and get licensed if you suffer from a mental disorder.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: So, like our closest friends know about our OSDD and also some colleagues we are close with know about it to some degree, but we try not to be too open about it, because it's always a little bit dangerous. You never know where this information will spread.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: That's been our story as well, in that people have this community movement at times for people to fight stigma by coming out. And while I appreciate the people who are available and have the courage to do that, I don't know that it applies to everyone. For us, it's in the same sort of category that we would lose our jobs likely. It's very likely we would lose our jobs if we were entirely outed. And that's a scary thing when we're providing for others, not just ourself.
• 40:37
  And so Oh, yeah. I agree with you. That's a hard thing. I think it's an unfortunate thing, and I think it's a bias that our own profession has against the people it's helping. It's a reality.
• 40:55
  Yeah. What else? Is there anything else that you wanna share about dissociative disorders or your experience with them?
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Maybe, like, dive into OSDD Because I feel that there is so much misinformation about OSDD going around and also a lack of information.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, tell me, please.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, because we are trained by Alert, we follow his approach to a certain degree that says OSDD is minor DID. Like, it's like DID, but to a less degree. Yeah. And, as I If I got it right, like in your system there are multiple parts that take on with daily life.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Like, you share different roles in your system for daily life.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, in our system, like, I am the leading host, or like, if you would say it in structural dissociation speak, I'm like the main ANP, apparently normal part.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have, like we have a second ANP, no, we actually have three ANPs, but they only co front and I nearly lose no time in day to day life. You know, sometimes hard to remember, like our days, when there was a lot of co fronting going on, because the others, like, take away the memory with them, when they go back into the mindscape. But I'm nearly always aware what is going on. And it has been that way since we were 11, and I guess it likes the most what's the word? Let me think.
• 43:10
  It's like your hallmark feature of OSDD that you normally have, like, one part who does the day to day life and then a lot of others who like
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: The EPs? The emotional part?
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the EPs. Yeah, actually, yeah, right. They like deal with specific situations, like, for example, one of our protectors, he will only come to the front when he senses we are in danger and then he will retreat back into the mindscape. But everything else is like in DID. You can have like alters who are super developed with their own age, their gender, their hobbies, their own looks, everything.
• 44:12
  They have their own voice. Everything is like in DID, but normally it's like you only have one part doing the daily life.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: The structure is almost the same and functioning is almost the same and the roles are very similar, but primarily just one who's fronting the most.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. My system, they can completely front and sometimes they also knock me out so I lose time but it's super rare.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: That actually helps a lot. My friend Julie was asking about that on a podcast when we were recording while we were driving and I heard that and I didn't understand how to answer what she was asking and I think you just did.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Okay, nice. Yeah, actually, listened to the podcast and, you know, I struggled not to instantly write a message and respond to that.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: No, was good that we need the information. Only even with DID, we only know our own system. And so for you to share your perspective of OSDD and what it's like for you is really really important and I'm so glad you came on the podcast to do that.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but we weren't sure if it would be like in one of the episodes we hadn't listened to at that point, so we just waited till we finished the last episode.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: That's a lot of listening. Yeah. We're still learning and so it's so specific about our stuff as we're trying to apply it. When guests who are we interview, if the guests don't talk about it, then it kind of doesn't come up. But I think it's absolutely an important part of the community.
• 46:06
  And I think that you're absolutely right when you talk about how common it is. And so I think it is important we talk about it more and that people learn about it accurately. And so I really, really appreciate you talking to us about it today. You're welcome. It was very kind, and also we appreciated your email because it was so direct and you did listen to it, And it wasn't just hate mail.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're happy that you don't get hate mail, it's so sad.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: So thank you for stepping up and just being a good person and kind and educating all of us.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: You know, when we first found out that we had something like going on inside, we super quickly came up with the term ego status order, I guess it was coined by Watkins and Watkins back in the 80s, but we couldn't get a hand on anything else. Like, they use this term and then there's nothing more.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Isn't that fascinating? Yeah,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: it's like everything is focused on like major fully blown DID, because it's like so fascinating. And then like everything else, yeah whatever, this other weird dissociative disorder stuff.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Which is so sad because it's not about all the exciting stuff. That's one of the reasons, I mean there are others as well obviously, but that's one of the reasons we don't talk a lot directly about our trauma stuff on the podcast. It's not about the shock value. That's not what we're trying to do. And so this is a good example of we need to talk about this more, especially because it applies to so many people.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: It does. I have a lot of friends who suffer with OSDD and I was the first one like to bring it up to them, hey, maybe you have a dissociative disorder, maybe it's not like normal that there are people living inside your head that rarely come up front. Maybe like this is the solution to your eating disorder, to your addiction, to your self harm, whatever.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to read your research in the future.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm planning on doing my PhD sometime in the future, maybe when I'm a little less struggling with my own trauma history.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Right. You have such a unique perspective and such a clear picture of what's happening inside, whether that's inside yourself or inside others. And I think it's really making a difference, and what you had to say today was very important. Thank you.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: You're welcome. You know, Colin Ross, the guy you interviewed like years ago. He's super proud of himself that he diagnosed
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, keep going.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: That he diagnosed his first DID case back in his residence, I guess?
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: He speaks about it in his autobiography.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: And actually we like diagnosed our first DID when we were 19, because we had a girlfriend and she was losing time and we were like yeah, that's DID.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: There you go. Yeah.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Take this, Polycross.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Set a new record. That's funny. Wow.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: But we were puzzled by it, because, you know, we were like going through the world with not being health professionals at this time at all, And like all around us we were seeing DID cases popping up, but no one recognized them.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: It's a hard thing to watch, isn't it?
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's super hard.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to watch the people struggle and it's hard to not be able to help all of them.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Like in my internship, we had like this counseling session two times a week, where you could just come up and ask if you are likely suffering from PTSD or not. Oh wow, and I saw so much OSDD and so much DID and I knew that people would never get any help, because I cannot like offer treatment to all of them. People who are like in their 50s and are part of the mental health system since they were teenagers and never received a proper diagnosis.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: That's heartbreaking.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: It's super heartbreaking. People who are on like anti psychotics for decades, gaining a lot of weight, feeling shit, feeling super numb for years and not getting any better. I had this one client with like dissociative psychosis And like, if it's hard to get a DID diagnosis or OSDD diagnosis, then it's even harder to get diagnosed as dissociative psychotic.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Wow!
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: She has a clear cut system, like she switches in front of me, I can talk to the others, and when she gets like psychotic, like there are some littles taking over, and they are super convinced that their parents weren't actually their parents, but they came from outer space. Which makes complete sense, if your parents are shit, that you know, hope that your parents are not your parents. Right. I myself hope my whole childhood that I was adopted, so it makes complete sense.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: And when they take over, yeah, tell everyone that they are from a different planet and stuff and then they get referred to hospitals and stuff to the brim with anti psychotics.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's heartbreaking. Yeah.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: And they can clearly state that, like, the aspect that's helping them on this hospital stays is just the time. Because, like, within one or two or three months, they will, the littles will run out of energy and will retreat back into the mindscape. And then the ANPs will come back, yeah, and then their psychotic episode is over. It's not the medication.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: I am so glad you are out there in the world.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hopefully there will be more of that like informed therapist in the future.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: I hope so, I hope so.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: I guess one of my cousins also has a dissociative disorder going on, which would make complete sense, because my aunt, like the sister of my mother, is heavily mentally disturbed as well. And when like I see her posting things on Facebook, I'm often like okay, wow, there's something going on inside you. But I guess she will never like make it to any kind of therapy, because she doesn't have like the cognitive capacity to, you know, figure out what's going on.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Oh wow.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Super sad.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: That's very sad.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And like, even if you have the idea, okay, I need therapy, it's super likely that you will end up with some dupe, who doesn't know anything about trauma or dissociation. You will get treated for anxiety or depression forever.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: That's gonna be a long time of anxiety and depression if you're not treating what's causing it.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: That's depressing and makes me anxious.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: You know, Allard is always like yeah, well, if people come to my treatment constantly, they can be completely healed in five to ten years. And everyone in his seminars is always like: Wow, that's short, that's a short time. And like normally people come to my treatment for years and years on end and they never get like any kind of solution. Yeah, because you're not treating them for what they have, but you treat them for any weird symptoms they are presenting to you. I feel I'm so full of anger today.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: That's messed up. People are people need to help people.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, please.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: Or go home. That's what they say.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Oh, one one last thing.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Okay. Yes.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Like, if you can make the time and maybe afford a copy, please check the Trinity of Trauma by Elad Nijnas.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: It's amazing. It's not like just a treatment approach, but it's like a whole world view, philosophical approach stuff. Like, refers to spinosa and embodied cognition and stuff a lot, and it's groundbreaking.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: Thank you for talking to us.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I really enjoyed it talking to you.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: Oh good, you were very brave. You did a great
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: job. I had a little help from one of our middles, She is relatively fluent in English, so yeah, she helped out a lot.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: Did fantastic, thank you all. Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeakcommunity.com. We'll see you there.