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S5 E2 Debt: Burden Or Building Block? · The Swan Effect - Creating and Sustaining Your Financial Wellbeing

• 0:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Your legacy isn't just about numbers.
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• 0:49
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• 0:56
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Hi there, I'm Arthi Rabikrisson.
• 1:04
  Malika Petersen: Hello, I'm Malika Petersen.
• 1:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Welcome to
• 1:07
  Malika Petersen: the Swan Effect Podcast.
• 1:10
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We're your go-to podcast to simplify the complexities of money management, investing, and wealth management.
• 1:17
  Malika Petersen: So that you can gain confidence in your relationship with money and become financially literate, independent, and free.
• 1:26
  Arthi Rabikrisson: That first step towards freedom is knowledge.
• 1:29
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And you can start regaining that right now by listening to this upcoming episode.
• 1:43
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Welcome to March, everyone, and the Swan Effect Podcast.
• 1:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Have you recovered from overextending in December and January?
• 1:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Well, you know what?
• 1:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I know that you, our listeners, are so smart and you've been taking our guidance to heart.
• 1:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So I would wager, yes, absolutely.
• 2:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Hi, Malika.
• 2:02
  Arthi Rabikrisson: What do you think?
• 2:03
  Malika Petersen: Hi, Arthi, and hello listeners.
• 2:05
  Malika Petersen: I agree.
• 2:06
  Malika Petersen: I think our listeners aren't reeling like others, maybe, butt if you are teetering slightly, well, help is on hand from us, as always.
• 2:15
  Malika Petersen: Because today's episode is us pinpointing our love-hate relationship with Debt.
• 2:21
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It literally is that, Malika, a love-hate relationship.
• 2:24
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, everyone, it just makes us uncomfortable, tense most of the time.
• 2:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So yes, it can be seen as difficult.
• 2:31
  Malika Petersen: Yeah.
• 2:31
  Malika Petersen: I mean, a situationship as our Gen Zs call it, right?
• 2:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yes, situationship.
• 2:38
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Or an entanglement, that's the other one.
• 2:40
  Arthi Rabikrisson: The mave have moved on from both of thise phrases, Arthi, I don't know.
• 2:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I can't keep up.
• 2:48
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But in any case, that being said, there are, you know, there may be some of us enjoying the good life, right?
• 2:54
  Arthi Rabikrisson: That that debt can afford us.
• 2:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: If afford us is the right word, right?
• 2:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Who doesn't love getting that notification you've qualified for?
• 3:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Uh yeah.
• 3:07
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, it's quite exciting.
• 3:09
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And many of us might be spending it away while just repaying the bare minimum.
• 3:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah.
• 3:15
  Malika Petersen: If anything at all.
• 3:16
  Malika Petersen: And that is when we can kind of be oblivious to how, you know, the good from debt can quickly go sour and soft.
• 3:24
  Malika Petersen: Right.
• 3:25
  Malika Petersen: And but then it's unfortunately already too late.
• 3:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, you're right.
• 3:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You're right.
• 3:29
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But today we want to help you flip the switch on your narrative by helping you to figure out how to use debt responsibly.
• 3:37
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, debt has crippled so many people financially, breaking families apart, Malika, delaying retirement, causing so much of stress and shame.
• 3:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But it has also empowered others by building businesses, funding education, creating lovely property portfolios, and of course building generational wealth.
• 3:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Now, I mean, doesn't that sound exceptional, Malika?
• 4:01
  Malika Petersen: I mean, it sounds fabulous, right?
• 4:03
  Malika Petersen: Also, I must say, I also love the title of our episode, Everyone, right?
• 4:08
  Malika Petersen: Debt Being a Burden or a Building Block.
• 4:11
  Malika Petersen: Because debt reminds me of Lego, doesn't it?
• 4:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I somehow knew you were gonna go there, actually.
• 4:18
  Malika Petersen: If you hear me outright, a single Lego brick on the floor is annoying because you always step on it and it's a I mean, it's a proper eina, right?
• 4:29
  Malika Petersen: It's really painful.
• 4:30
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, I I cannot disagree with you on that.
• 4:33
  Malika Petersen: It is yeah.
• 4:34
  Malika Petersen: But that exact same brick traced intentionally into a design becomes part of a beautiful structure.
• 4:40
  Malika Petersen: It could be a house, it could be a spaceship, it could be a castle.
• 4:45
  Malika Petersen: I mean, remember all those cool models my team and I built at our LEGO Serious Play facilitation, right?
• 4:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, of course.
• 4:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, they were brilliant, they were fun, they were quirky, but you know what?
• 4:56
  Arthi Rabikrisson: They were all very purposeful in what they were trying to showcase.
• 5:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So Okay, I see where you're going with this, Malika.
• 5:02
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, you're you're basically saying debt is the same.
• 5:05
  Arthi Rabikrisson: One isolated, unplanned, emotionally driven borrowing decision can really hurt you, you know, financially, psychologically, emotionally, so many ways.
• 5:16
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But structured, intentional debt, if that's aligned with a bigger design, that becomes part of the architecture of your future.
• 5:25
  Malika Petersen: You see, that's why we are co-host.
• 5:27
  Malika Petersen: We are on the same way, Lake.
• 5:30
  Malika Petersen: But that's exactly it, right?
• 5:33
  Malika Petersen: Yeah.
• 5:33
  Malika Petersen: And let's kind of unpack this for our listeners even further.
• 5:38
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, cool.
• 5:38
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So perhaps the best place is actually to start by reiterating what you've just heard, listeners, that debt is actually emotional before it's mathematical.
• 5:48
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, that is so valid, everyone.
• 5:49
  Malika Petersen: Remember uh what we shared in episode one this season, that we inherit beliefs and rules and and you know, particularly around debt.
• 5:58
  Malika Petersen: These beliefs could sound like debt is bad.
• 6:01
  Malika Petersen: Owing money means that I failed.
• 6:03
  Malika Petersen: If I can't pay cash, don't buy it.
• 6:06
  Malika Petersen: But the reality of the situation is that every major corporation uses debt, right?
• 6:10
  Malika Petersen: That it is what it is.
• 6:12
  Malika Petersen: Every investor uses leverage, specifically property investors, but every investor, in fact, uses leverage.
• 6:19
  Malika Petersen: And every expanding business, moving from being a small business to a medium business or medium business to a to a larger business, uses capital.
• 6:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah.
• 6:29
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, what's coming to my mind as you're talking, Malika, is the question isn't whether debt is good or bad.
• 6:34
  Arthi Rabikrisson: The question actually needs to be: how can I use debt as a tool?
• 6:38
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Because, like any tool, it can build something powerful or it can cause damage.
• 6:44
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I grew up in a very cash-only mentality, right?
• 6:48
  Arthi Rabikrisson: My dad had a credit card.
• 6:49
  Arthi Rabikrisson: He would only use it as an emergency or for a really big purchase.
• 6:53
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And then he would be very deliberate to work through it to ensure it was paid all within the time frame as well.
• 7:00
  Malika Petersen: Yeah.
• 7:00
  Malika Petersen: I mean, I remember thinking credit cards were dangerous, full stop, right?
• 7:04
  Malika Petersen: But I think what I eventually realized is that it's not the card, it's it's uh the behavior.
• 7:11
  Malika Petersen: Two people can both have 30,000 Rands worth of debt.
• 7:16
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah.
• 7:17
  Malika Petersen: One uses it to qualify for a job that increases their income by 4,000 Rand a month, and the other uses it, you know, for for lifestyle spending, like a handbag, right?
• 7:30
  Malika Petersen: And pay the minimum payment for five years.
• 7:32
  Malika Petersen: So it's the same debt, but a completely different outcome.
• 7:36
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I guess what we're trying to say, listeners, is that debt is actually neutral, but it's our behavior behind it that determines the outcome.
• 7:45
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay.
• 7:45
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Let's define this a bit more clearly then in terms of these outcomes that we're talking about.
• 7:50
  Arthi Rabikrisson: For example, when we're looking at good debt outcomes, and by that I mean using debt to fund something that grows in value, something that you acquire that appreciates, or perhaps even increases your income potential.
• 8:04
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And plus, of course, like we said, supporting asset ownership too.
• 8:07
  Arthi Rabikrisson: These types of good debt outcomes would look like maybe a mortgage, a business loan, a strategic student loan, even.
• 8:15
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But again, even with this, remember, Malika, there's that nuance that we've mentioned before.
• 8:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Because, for example, a bond can be good debt initially, but then not if it makes you actually become house poor, you can't save, you panic every time interest rates move.
• 8:31
  Arthi Rabikrisson: That's not a good situation to be in.
• 8:33
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, exactly.
• 8:34
  Malika Petersen: I'm actually so glad that you shared that, Ati, because you know that that can then lead us to distinguish what are real bad debt outcomes, right?
• 8:44
  Malika Petersen: Which can look like increasing consumption, depreciation almost immediately on your purchase, and being tracked in the highest interest with no term gain or return.
• 8:55
  Malika Petersen: Okay, so let's let's look at some of the examples.
• 8:58
  Malika Petersen: The rule of thumb always is to be don't buy something on credit that is gonna last less time than it's gonna take you to pay that off.
• 9:08
  Malika Petersen: So all my South Africans out there that like to go to sportsing and buy sneakers, you're paying that off potentially longer than your kids are gonna be wearing those sneakers.
• 9:20
  Malika Petersen: But that's that, you know, just me again, would Woolies is another example that comes up for me, right?
• 9:25
  Malika Petersen: Because there's so many people I see buying food on a Woolies card.
• 9:29
  Malika Petersen: And I'm like, you're gonna be paying this thing off long after bad food has been eaten.
• 9:34
  Malika Petersen: So so yeah, so I think you know, let's consider some of those examples credit card balances or any kind of store or store cards for lifestyle spending.
• 9:42
  Malika Petersen: I mean, if you want to go on holiday, save towards the holiday, right?
• 9:45
  Malika Petersen: It should your credit card should not be used for you to go on holiday.
• 9:49
  Malika Petersen: Financing of luxury goods that you can't afford, that Hermes, the Birkin, or the Kelly or the Louis Vuitton.
• 9:57
  Malika Petersen: You know, I was I was in my economics class the other day, and we were talking about the father of capitalism.
• 10:05
  Malika Petersen: And he had a saying that you you you you make the goods for who?
• 10:09
  Malika Petersen: And his answer was for those who can afford it.
• 10:12
  Malika Petersen: And I always think about that when we consider luxury goods, because you know, at the end of the day, don't buy it if you're not in a position to buy it.
• 10:20
  Malika Petersen: That's the bottom line.
• 10:21
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, right.
• 10:22
  Malika Petersen: And it's personal loans for status purchases, right?
• 10:26
  Malika Petersen: Like the nice Rolex or jewelry from Cartier or auction items from Sotheby's.
• 10:32
  Malika Petersen: This, you know, some of the things that that we're thinking about.
• 10:36
  Malika Petersen: The reality is that if you need to take a loan to buy some of those items, and I mean, look, we all love beautiful things.
• 10:43
  Malika Petersen: Don't get us wrong, but we will teach you the tools and tricks to be able to save and invest so that you can afford those beautiful things.
• 10:50
  Malika Petersen: Just don't use creative to do it.
• 10:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 10:54
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Here's the filter we want you all to apply, everybody.
• 10:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, think about it in this way.
• 10:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Does this debt that you're using, does it create future income or opportunity?
• 11:04
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Or actually, is it just creating those monthly payments?
• 11:08
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, that's that's actually a question that changes everything in my mind, Malika.
• 11:13
  Malika Petersen: In fact, right, in a perfect world, you will use debt only to invest in income generating assets.
• 11:21
  Malika Petersen: And that income that you generate from those assets should then fund your lifestyle.
• 11:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 11:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: For sure.
• 11:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, let's, for example, talk about credit cards.
• 11:31
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, credit cards themselves are not evil.
• 11:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, they are short-term lending tools.
• 11:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Used correctly, you can use that to help you build a credit profile.
• 11:40
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We've got so many rewards systems in place with credit cards as well.
• 11:44
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yes, there is that flexibility to also, I mean, of course, there's so much of fraud that can happen as well, right?
• 11:50
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So sometimes that offers you a really good protection from that too.
• 11:54
  Arthi Rabikrisson: However, there's also that flip side that Malika you were talking about, right?
• 11:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Because when you're using it incorrectly, you could then be facing 18 to 20% of interest repayments.
• 12:05
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You're then trapped into these payment cycles.
• 12:08
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And most of the time people are paying just the minimum, right?
• 12:12
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Which means you're now having to pay over longer term, like you said, that Wooly's food on the credit card, thing that off well after you've eaten it.
• 12:21
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And of course, you're also just compounding your debt stress.
• 12:24
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's not something I'd want to be at, to be honest.
• 12:27
  Malika Petersen: Yeah.
• 12:27
  Malika Petersen: I mean, also, you know, what you mentioned earlier, Arthi, about about your dad, right?
• 12:31
  Malika Petersen: He's what I would call a transactor of credit cards, right?
• 12:36
  Malika Petersen: Using it for convenience or rewards, paying off the balance, you know, within the time limit provided, or even sooner sometime, right?
• 12:44
  Malika Petersen: And then you get the revolvers, right?
• 12:47
  Malika Petersen: They carry the balance, they pay the interest, they are using, you know, their credit cards to make ends meet for things like groceries, petrol, or just monthly living.
• 12:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I hear you.
• 12:59
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So actually, if you're paying interest on groceries every month, I mean, actually, you're not using a card.
• 13:04
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You're financing your life at a premium rate.
• 13:07
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh my god, yes.
• 13:07
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, remember everyone, credit cards amplify habits, right?
• 13:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Disciplined habits will help you build credit.
• 13:16
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But if it's undisciplined habits, it's only a one-way road to anxiety, actually.
• 13:21
  Malika Petersen: Absolutely.
• 13:22
  Malika Petersen: I mean, let's think about how in South Africa there are literally clothing accounts everywhere, right?
• 13:28
  Malika Petersen: The psychology is so powerful.
• 13:31
  Malika Petersen: You know, this idea that small monthly instalments feel manageable.
• 13:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yes, I mean I can attest to that, Malika.
• 13:38
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, when I first started working, I opened up my first store account, as one does when you're very excited with your first initial paychecks.
• 13:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I opened up a Truworths account.
• 13:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, and and and I was offered what seemed like an obscene amount of credit at the time.
• 13:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: To just for me, of course.
• 13:54
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And and you know, as is was the norm, I think I don't know if it still is, you would get, you know, a six-month interest-free option or 12 months with low interest.
• 14:03
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So I was on the six months interest free.
• 14:05
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So woo-hoo.
• 14:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I felt like, okay, I had enough time.
• 14:08
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I could spend that amount, I would pay off bits and pieces.
• 14:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But eventually, what I came to realize was that externally I was living this very fast-fashioned, fast-forward type of situation.
• 14:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But internally, I was a slave to store credit.
• 14:23
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh my God, it was quite a habit.
• 14:25
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But I'm glad I was able to break it.
• 14:27
  Malika Petersen: Well, wow guy.
• 14:28
  Malika Petersen: I mean, I've had similar experiences also that I could share too, especially when it comes to sneakers and cars, and of course, Manchester United!
• 14:39
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, okay.
• 14:40
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We won't go down that road.
• 14:42
  Arthi Rabikrisson: All right, cool.
• 14:43
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But but okay, let's turn our attention to student loans.
• 14:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay.
• 14:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Good debt or bad debt outcome?
• 14:49
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Is it an investment or is it a burden?
• 14:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: What would you say, Malika?
• 14:53
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, so this is an interesting one because education can be powerful levy.
• 14:58
  Malika Petersen: I mean, I should know.
• 14:59
  Malika Petersen: As you know, I am a lifelong learner with a healthy appetite for gaining knowledge.
• 15:05
  Malika Petersen: So the psychologically is unstable one.
• 15:08
  Malika Petersen: In fact, it can be about the studying that I do.
• 15:10
  Malika Petersen: But I think a key lesson that I've kind of learned is that it must have a return on investment.
• 15:17
  Malika Petersen: All right.
• 15:17
  Malika Petersen: Okay.
• 15:18
  Malika Petersen: Yeah.
• 15:18
  Malika Petersen: And I always check in with myself, right?
• 15:21
  Malika Petersen: What will this qualification realistically earn for me, my family, my organization, and my community?
• 15:29
  Malika Petersen: Now, I want to be clear.
• 15:31
  Malika Petersen: Obviously, where I am in my life, I'm studying kind of second, third, whatever, you know, qualifications, fourth, and so on.
• 15:40
  Malika Petersen: What I want out of qualification is very different to someone who's starting fish out of school and needs a qualification, right?
• 15:48
  Malika Petersen: So for me and that individual, both of us need to ask, what is this qualification going to give me?
• 15:53
  Malika Petersen: If you're just starting out of school, you need to really understand, you know, how much you're gonna earn once you're done with the qualification.
• 16:01
  Malika Petersen: What's that debt-to-income ratio, right?
• 16:04
  Malika Petersen: What is understand if I take out that or take on a debt to be able to cover my study?
• 16:10
  Malika Petersen: What is that debt to income ratio?
• 16:12
  Malika Petersen: Will I be able to pay it back with the increased amount that I'm earning post-qualification?
• 16:19
  Malika Petersen: And also, will I, you know, kind of make sure that I'll still have something left after that?
• 16:25
  Malika Petersen: And then lastly, how long will the repayment take?
• 16:28
  Malika Petersen: You know, is it a short term, is it a medium term, or is it a longer term debt?
• 16:32
  Malika Petersen: That is very important because you don't want to be paying bad debts um after you've finished your study into forever, right?
• 16:42
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Which can very easily happen depending on the nature of the courses that you're undertaking.
• 16:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I I I hear you.
• 16:48
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I really do hear you on this one, Malika.
• 16:50
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, uh it's so easy to undertake paid for courses nowadays given there's so many different platforms, you know, that are offering them.
• 16:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: They're so appealing, especially a lot of the international schools are are now more available post-COVID than they were pre-COVID, right?
• 17:07
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And there's such interesting topics.
• 17:08
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And I think what you're suggesting to all of us is that we just need to ensure that whatever education or skill uplift that we're hoping to achieve, and if that's funded by debt particularly, we need to be strategic about it.
• 17:21
  Arthi Rabikrisson: No matter where we are, whether we're just starting off in terms of getting our first job or upskilling in terms of having a few years' worth of experience, or whether we're later on, you know, looking for different outcomes from that.
• 17:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I guess the idea is that without any clarity on where this is going to take us, that potential payback period that you're talking about there is actually potentially risky as well.
• 17:46
  Malika Petersen: Yeah.
• 17:47
  Malika Petersen: So I mean, debt without ROI becomes a burden to bear.
• 17:51
  Malika Petersen: And debt with ROI becomes like jet fuel.
• 17:54
  Malika Petersen: It propels you forward, right?
• 17:56
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, that is actually visualizing that.
• 17:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I love that visual actually, because I mean that it's it's making me think of a jetpack, uh, you know, and and with that, you know, it's it's something like you said, it just takes us and guides us forward at a much faster pace.
• 18:10
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, cool.
• 18:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I like that.
• 18:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, with that then, let's perhaps land with that jetpack on the next form of debt usage, which, you know, is owning a home.
• 18:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay.
• 18:20
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Traditionally, everyone, we've been taught, both at home and in life, that property can build wealth across generations.
• 18:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay.
• 18:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And that's because we know that a mortgage can help us build equity, it'll help us replace renting, it appreciates, typically would appreciate over time.
• 18:38
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And at some point, might even create rental income for us too.
• 18:42
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, but like we've discussed before, there is a trap, right?
• 18:46
  Malika Petersen: I mean, we've had this conversation about whether your whether your home is really an asset or is it a liability, right?
• 18:51
  Malika Petersen: And I think people forget that when you buy at the absolute maximum that the bank approves, that's not necessarily why.
• 19:01
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah.
• 19:02
  Malika Petersen: There's a big difference between owning a home and being owned by your bond.
• 19:09
  Malika Petersen: Right.
• 19:10
  Malika Petersen: Oh yes, okay.
• 19:11
  Malika Petersen: I mean, that is, yeah, that hits deep.
• 19:14
  Malika Petersen: But if your mortgage is consuming your peace of mind, your flexibility in being able to enjoy certain experiences that you may want to uh enjoy, your ability to save and invest, then that's not leverage.
• 19:28
  Malika Petersen: That is stress.
• 19:30
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, I I hear you as well on this one, Malik.
• 19:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, I I guess I would also just encourage our listeners to ask themselves, firstly, with that level of debt or the bond that you've got, can you handle a rate increase when that happens?
• 19:44
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Right?
• 19:45
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Does it allow you to still save monthly?
• 19:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Or actually, no, you've got nothing left?
• 19:49
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Does it even allow you to have create or build your emergency fund?
• 19:54
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay.
• 19:55
  Arthi Rabikrisson: If that mortgage repayment is actually eating away, particularly on those last two, then you know, as Malika said, that you're being owned by your bond.
• 20:03
  Malika Petersen: Yeah.
• 20:04
  Malika Petersen: And I mean, this can also be true for business owners, right?
• 20:07
  Malika Petersen: Because businesses need capital to grow.
• 20:10
  Malika Petersen: We know this.
• 20:11
  Malika Petersen: And loans offer expansion, right?
• 20:14
  Malika Petersen: You have the ability to buy equipment, to bolster marketing campaigns, to boost inventory, right?
• 20:22
  Malika Petersen: All of those things.
• 20:22
  Malika Petersen: So equipment, marketing, or inventory.
• 20:26
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And I guess if your business is borrowing to survive month to month, right, to cover things like payroll, for example, I mean, of course, that's a red flag, everyone.
• 20:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But if you're borrowing to scale a proven system, right, then that's what we're gonna call strategy.
• 20:42
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And actually, when you think about it again, if debt doesn't increase your revenue, everybody, you need to then reassess how and where you're using debt and actually just take remedial action as soon as you can.
• 20:56
  Malika Petersen: Okay, so I wanna I wanna get practical quickly because I think you and I most enjoy the practical tide of our segment, right?
• 21:03
  Malika Petersen: And I want to say to all of our listeners, we absolutely understand that the things we are sharing today is, you know, it's the perfect or when we say try not to do this or try to do that, it's in a perfect scenario, right?
• 21:17
  Malika Petersen: Some of us are currently in debt and we find, we find that it is difficult.
• 21:22
  Malika Petersen: So this is kind of the action segment.
• 21:25
  Malika Petersen: We're gonna lay out some strategies for you.
• 21:27
  Malika Petersen: Before we talk about these strategies, I just do want to point out one thing.
• 21:31
  Malika Petersen: It is always important to try and save an emergency fund first.
• 21:35
  Malika Petersen: And the reason that we say that before you embark on these strategies, and the reason that we say that is because if anything should come up or happen, any kind of emergency, I've I'm driving into potholes all the time.
• 21:48
  Malika Petersen: I think you know I need to replace tires all the time, right?
• 21:50
  Malika Petersen: So if an emergency comes up, I want to know that I have a place to go to that is not debt or not a credit card or not an overdraft where I can access money to.
• 21:59
  Malika Petersen: Would take care of that emergency.
• 22:01
  Malika Petersen: So that's your first spot of gold.
• 22:03
  Malika Petersen: Create that emergency fund.
• 22:05
  Malika Petersen: Right.
• 22:06
  Malika Petersen: Now, our first strategy to take care of your debt is called the debt snowball method.
• 22:11
  Malika Petersen: And that was made popular by Dave Ramsey.
• 22:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And everyone, you know, what I'm loving about what we're going to share with you now is we're going to actually take you through this in terms of how you're going to do it.
• 22:21
  Arthi Rabikrisson: The snowball method is something I've used before, Malika.
• 22:24
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I don't know about you as well.
• 22:25
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But here's how it works, everybody.
• 22:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's quite simple.
• 22:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Firstly, list your debts from the smallest balance to the largest.
• 22:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Then, secondly, pay your minimums on all of them.
• 22:36
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay.
• 22:37
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Thirdly, when you have that extra money, whatever it may be in the form of a bonus or a gift, whatever it is, throw every extra cent at the smallest debt amount.
• 22:50
  Arthi Rabikrisson: What you want to do is obviously you want to clear that out.
• 22:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So once that is cleared, then roll to the next biggest, I suppose, from that, in terms of making sure that that payment gets sorted out as well.
• 23:02
  Malika Petersen: I think it's powerful, firstly, because it builds momentum, guys.
• 23:06
  Malika Petersen: I mean, you know, those quick wins when you actually see the smallest one being paid off, and then you start to look at the next one, that builds confidence.
• 23:13
  Malika Petersen: And the confidence will build discipline over time.
• 23:16
  Arthi Rabikrisson: That's the mindset piece that we've always been saying about.
• 23:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And we obviously spoke about in our last episode as well.
• 23:23
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So to illustrate with some numbers, everybody, okay, let's say you've got three levels of debt, right?
• 23:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Debt A, 2,000 Rand that you need to pay off at 21%.
• 23:32
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ouch.
• 23:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: The minimum repayment being around, let's say, 200 Rand.
• 23:36
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Maybe debt B is a bigger amount of 10,000 Rand at say 15% that you have to repay on interest.
• 23:43
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And the minimum repayment amount is 400 Rand.
• 23:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And let's say the final one is 45,000 Rand with an interest rate of 12%.
• 23:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And that minimum repayment looks at about maybe 1,200 Rand.
• 23:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And now you've got about 500 Rand extra per month, whichever source that comes from.
• 24:02
  Arthi Rabikrisson: With that snowball effect that would be a snowball payment method that we're talking about, you can actually wipe out your debt A, that 2000 Rand, pretty quickly.
• 24:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And then what you would do for debt B now is you would, because that's 400 Rand a month that you're repaying as a minimum repayment, you take that 200 Rand that you were originally paying, plus now let's say that 500 that's coming in extra every month, and you would put it towards paying off debt B and then in a similar fashion move on to debt C.
• 24:33
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, I love that.
• 24:34
  Malika Petersen: I think that's just, yeah, it helps with quick wins, which is awesome.
• 24:37
  Malika Petersen: All right.
• 24:38
  Malika Petersen: So the next idea.
• 24:39
  Malika Petersen: If that doesn't work for you, we'd like to tell you about the debt avalanche method, which, you know, that's where instead of paying off your smallest balance first, you target your highest interest rate first.
• 24:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, I think this one actually saves more money mathematically, if I think about it.
• 24:55
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But it does require a bit more patience, everyone.
• 24:59
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So I guess if you're motivated by logic, maybe the avalanche one is gonna offer you something a little bit, it's gonna feel like a quicker win for you.
• 25:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But of course, if you're motivated by the quick wins, like Malika was saying, the snowball is probably the one that's gonna help you build that confidence quickly.
• 25:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Both work.
• 25:15
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It doesn't matter which one you choose, it's really is a preference.
• 25:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: The idea behind this is you select the one that you know you can be consistent with, because that's what's actually gonna matter at the end of the day.
• 25:26
  Malika Petersen: Yeah.
• 25:26
  Malika Petersen: I think what's important, like you said, Ati, is that consistency matters.
• 25:31
  Malika Petersen: Guys, to be honest with you, even if you're flip-flopping between the debt avalanche and the debt snowball at different times, that's even that's okay.
• 25:39
  Malika Petersen: Right.
• 25:40
  Malika Petersen: As long as you are applying some kind of strategy, right?
• 25:44
  Malika Petersen: Then the next important thing.
• 25:46
  Malika Petersen: So our first important thing was make sure you create an emergency fund.
• 25:50
  Malika Petersen: The next important thing was choose one of the strategies that we spoke about, right?
• 25:54
  Malika Petersen: Then the no debt rule, no new debt rule comes into play, right?
• 25:58
  Malika Petersen: You can't dig out of a hole, you know, when you're just piling on consistently, right?
• 26:06
  Malika Petersen: You need to pause any new debt unless, and this is very important back to what Arthi said earlier on, it's something strategic or something that's going to create income for you going forward.
• 26:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I think what's coming to my mind about this particular one, Malika, is that idea of stabilizing yourself before you accelerate even further.
• 26:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Unless you have lots of, you know, your own cash available.
• 26:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, don't suddenly now go out and buy that beautiful home and then at the same time undertake a whole host of renovations.
• 26:40
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And then on top of that, you purchase a car at the same time.
• 26:43
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But then again, you're mostly using debt financing to do that.
• 26:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, it really is quite a cocktail that presents a lot of issues down the line.
• 26:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And okay, so so let's let's then talk about something else that comes in line.
• 26:56
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Now, if you are doing a lot of you know these types of debt, one after the other, okay.
• 27:01
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Here's an additional idea that I want you to think about, which is what we're gonna call the debt clarity, or some may want to call it the debt reset.
• 27:10
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's a little bit of an exercise, okay.
• 27:12
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's something that you can use even if you've traditionally been avoiding looking at your debt.
• 27:17
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's an ability for you to just reset.
• 27:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I was actually talking to a client this morning, Malika, believe it or not, who was kind of avoiding her own financial management and her and looking at her finances.
• 27:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And I offered this to her as well.
• 27:29
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And she was like, Well, that actually just gets me going.
• 27:32
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So that's what this is designed to do, just to get you going.
• 27:34
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Grab your phone, grab a notebook, whatever your preference is, and literally, similar to what we were saying earlier, make a note of every debt that you have.
• 27:44
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, short-term, medium-term, long-term, list all of them.
• 27:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Part of that is also then writing what is the balance on that debt?
• 27:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: What is the interest rate you're currently paying?
• 27:53
  Arthi Rabikrisson: What are those minimum payment amounts looking like?
• 27:56
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And by when is this meant to be completely paid off, that due date?
• 28:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Then take your pen, your notepad, whatever it is, circle the smallest balance.
• 28:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Then looking at that list, also circle which is the highest interest that you're paying.
• 28:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And then, just as we've said before, and as Malika said, choose your strategy.
• 28:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Which one am I using?
• 28:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Snowball or Avalanche?
• 28:22
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And just doing that, I think, is going to give you that kind of perspective of where you're sitting at holistically in terms of your debt.
• 28:31
  Malika Petersen: This is such a simple yet powerful way to almost demystify debt, right?
• 28:37
  Malika Petersen: Which we know the not knowing is what drives the fear.
• 28:41
  Malika Petersen: You know, it's the less you know, the scarier things get.
• 28:44
  Malika Petersen: So, so just claim clarity means that you can create control.
• 28:49
  Malika Petersen: It reduces debt's power over you, which is very important.
• 28:53
  Malika Petersen: And then taking action like this means that you're not afraid to move forward.
• 28:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, I I love transparency personally, and and actually just taking back control of things that I can.
• 29:03
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So I think, you know, actually, this next strategy I'm going to talk about is aligned exactly to that.
• 29:08
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And we're calling it the automate and accelerate.
• 29:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay.
• 29:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So this is where you can take those actions, automate your minimum payments.
• 29:17
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Make sure that even the smallest of amounts of money that you're either saving because you've changed your spending patterns or if it's coming, like we said, as a gift, put that towards paying your interest or paying your capital as well.
• 29:30
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Use your bonuses or any side income deliberately to reduce the principal payments as well.
• 29:36
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And of course, even call up your different debt providers and negotiate your premiums.
• 29:42
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Talk to them about how you can restructure your debt.
• 29:45
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Even look at some of the fees you might be paying.
• 29:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Could those be reversed?
• 29:49
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Could those be reduced?
• 29:50
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You never know what they could offer you as well, just because you took that action.
• 29:54
  Malika Petersen: Absolutely.
• 29:55
  Malika Petersen: And remember, being consistent and on top of things means that they don't get on top of you, right?
• 30:00
  Malika Petersen: And I especially love the extra amounts that you mentioned, Aati, because small consistent payments compound, just like interest does, and each and every penny count.
• 30:12
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It really, really does, everyone.
• 30:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We've said it before, previous episodes.
• 30:17
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, debt affects more than your bank account.
• 30:21
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It affects our stress levels, our relationships, our career choices, retirement, even if you're thinking a little bit further ahead, as well as even the opportunities that we can offer to our children and the younger generation in our family as well.
• 30:36
  Malika Petersen: Absolutely.
• 30:37
  Malika Petersen: And I mean, we've spoken about modeling to our kids before, right?
• 30:40
  Malika Petersen: How we handle debt is another form of role modeling.
• 30:43
  Malika Petersen: Your kids, your nieces, your nephew, they're all looking up to you, they're all watching you, they're friends as well, right?
• 30:49
  Malika Petersen: And it's far more beneficial to help them learn how to take ownership of debt rather than to avoid it.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Ah, yes.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, imagine you're teaching the children, you know, in your family, in your community, how interest works, how to be able to evaluate and discern its return on investment, knowing how to use credit responsibly.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Also, how to go about eliminating that debt methodically.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, this, everyone, this is generational wealth thinking.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's exciting.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: It's really exciting, you know, to be able to do that.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: I do, I'm doing that with my son now, Malika.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: And I know that that's something he can then take and you know, he'll talk to his friends about it, like you said, to other members of the family as well.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: It just creates this beautiful cascade effect.
• 31:37
  Malika Petersen: That's so brilliant, Arthi.
• 31:38
  Malika Petersen: It's like this big web of learning, right?
• 31:41
  Malika Petersen: So, listeners, if today's conversation spark questions about your broader financial plan, please remember you need to speak to a professional financial advisor.
• 31:50
  Malika Petersen: We've spoken about the importance of a financial advisor quite a bit uh on previous episodes.
• 31:54
  Malika Petersen: Who can help you to align your drext strategy with your investment strategy to be able to achieve your work goal?
• 32:02
  Arthi Rabikrisson: No, absolutely.
• 32:04
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, I we we've covered so many different elements in our in our chat today, Malika.
• 32:10
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And I know we're coming to the end now.
• 32:12
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So I think let's wrap up with some parting shots, everybody.
• 32:15
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So I think my parting shot for today would be that debt isn't a burden unless your behavior and your actions make it so.
• 32:23
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay.
• 32:24
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And what we need to think about is that good and those bad sort of debt outcomes.
• 32:30
  Arthi Rabikrisson: When you're thinking about those bad debt outcomes, it means we're actually starting to pass down limitations to the next generation.
• 32:38
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But if we're looking at it from a good debt outcome, you want to think about it as a more strategic intervention.
• 32:45
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So strategic debt and how that can actually pass down leverage and ownership.
• 32:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So everyone, choose enlightenment over ignorance when it comes to acquiring and managing debt.
• 32:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay.
• 32:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: How about you, Malika?
• 32:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: What's your parting shot for today?
• 33:00
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, look, I think for me, the parting shot is definitely that avoiding debt blindly, as we may have been taught to do, doesn't build well, right?
• 33:11
  Malika Petersen: But understanding it and understanding how to leave with your fit does build well.
• 33:16
  Malika Petersen: Because at the end of the day, debt is a tool.
• 33:19
  Malika Petersen: And tools can build legacies, or they can destroy women.
• 33:23
  Malika Petersen: The difference is really how you decide to use those tools.
• 33:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, definitely.
• 33:29
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So this week, everyone, just ask yourself is my debt building my future or is it borrowing from it or even breaking something in terms of my future?
• 33:38
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, do I want to feel the eina of those single Lego bricks on the floor?
• 33:43
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, no one wants that.
• 33:44
  Malika Petersen: No one.
• 33:45
  Malika Petersen: Do I want to fit it to a beautiful structure, you know, that you're kind of creating for yourself and your loved one?
• 33:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, okay, cool.
• 33:53
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So so let's do this then.
• 33:54
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Here's our 48-hour challenge for all of you.
• 33:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, in the next 48 hours, three things.
• 34:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Do the 10-minute debt reset that we spoke about just now.
• 34:04
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Secondly, choose the strategy.
• 34:05
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Snowball, have a launch.
• 34:07
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Just pick one and go with it, and you can change it later, as Maliko is saying.
• 34:10
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And thirdly, automate one extra payment.
• 34:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Do you think you can do it, everyone?
• 34:15
  Arthi Rabikrisson: 48 hours, okay, to make a small shift, but that small shift is going to create that big momentum.
• 34:22
  Arthi Rabikrisson: All right, until the next episode, everyone.
• 34:25
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ciao for now.
• 34:26
  Malika Petersen: Ciao.
• 34:27
  Malika Petersen: Thanks for joining us.
• 34:33
  Malika Petersen: We hope you found these ideas and guidance useful.
• 34:37
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We're both seasoned in the investments industry.
• 34:40
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Malika is at the cold phase of how, where, and why people invest the way they do.
• 34:47
  Malika Petersen: I certainly am.
• 34:48
  Malika Petersen: And you, Arthi, you've witnessed different types of investment behaviors around money too.
• 34:55
  Malika Petersen: And now we'll have the global award winning coach to free us from the mindsets that stop us from becoming financially free.
• 35:03
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Do subscribe, share, and write a review or send us comments.
• 35:07
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We would love to hear from you.
• 35:09
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Catch you on the next episode of the Swan Effect Podcast.
• 35:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Bye for now.
• 35:15
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ciao.