Latest / Edan Haddock - Total Talent / Can You Boycott AI and Still Have a Career?

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Can You Boycott AI and Still Have a Career? · Edan Haddock - Total Talent

• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Eden Haddock Total Talent.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Eden Haddock, Head of Talent and People Experience at Movember.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: No guests, no sponsors, just one practitioner still on the tools, talking about talent, people, technology, and where this profession is heading.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we are talking about AI again.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Another bloody AI episode.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: But this one is different.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking about whether AI is going to replace recruiters.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking about which tools you should be using.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking about agents, automation, or whether Chat GPT can write your job ads.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about something I've experienced twice over the past couple of weeks.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've had two candidates withdraw from recruitment processes because they were uncomfortable with the use of AI.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, not simply AI being used in the recruitment process, no.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: AI being used within the organization more broadly.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I found that fascinating.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because both decisions there, whether it's recruitment process or organization more broadly, they raise a much bigger question.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you fundamentally refuse to work for an organization that uses AI, then where exactly are you going to work?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps the harder question, could we eventually create a cohort of people who aren't displaced by AI, but effectively exclude themselves from parts of the labor market because they refuse to work alongside it?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to discuss today.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And before I go any further, I want to make something really clear.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I respect the decision that those candidates made completely.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: People should make decisions about employment based on their values.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: We talk constantly about values alignment from the employer's perspective.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Does this person align with our purpose?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Our culture?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: How we operate?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, honestly, candidates get to make exactly the same assessment of us.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if somebody decides that our approach to technology doesn't align with their values, they're entitled to walk away.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'd actually prefer that conversation happens during recruitment rather than six months after somebody joins.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So this isn't an episode having a crack at two candidates.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: The decision simply made me realize there is a conversation emerging that I don't think we're having seriously enough.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because resistance to AI isn't necessarily coming from ignorance.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: There are people with deeply held objections to this technology.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those objections deserve serious consideration.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So why some people are saying no, let's start there.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's sometimes a tendency within the AI conversation to divide everybody into two camps.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: The enlightened early adopters and the dinosaurs.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're either embracing the future or desperately clinging to the past.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's helpful.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are legitimate reasons why somebody might be uncomfortable with AI.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: There are environmental concerns around the energy, water, and infrastructure required to support AI at scale.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: There are huge questions around creativity and intellectual property.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Writers, designers, photographers, illustrators, musicians, and actors are understandably asking what this technology means for their craft and their livelihoods.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: There are concerns around privacy, bias, misinformation, and surveillance.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: There are concerns about jobs.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there are broader questions about what happens when we increasingly outsource thinking, communication, and decision making to machines.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Those aren't ridiculous concerns.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're important ones.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think people like me who advocate for responsible AI adoption should pretend otherwise.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: But and this is the massive but in today's episode: being concerned about AI and refusing to participate in any organization that uses AI are two very different positions.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because one allows you to influence how the technology develops, the other potentially removes you from an increasingly large part of the modern economy.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: What does using AI actually mean?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is where it gets messy.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say you decide I won't work for a company that uses AI.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well what counts?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Chat GPT?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Copilot?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: An AI recruitment tool?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Probably.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: But what about your CRM?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Your ATS?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Your HRIS?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Your cybersecurity software?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Your analytics tooling?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Your search engine.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Your phone.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when AI stops being a standalone product and simply becomes a layer underneath the technology we already use?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I really think that's where we're heading.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, in many cases, we really are already there.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually, you won't necessarily consciously choose to use AI.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: You'll use software.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that software will use AI.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's an important distinction.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because boycotting a particular AI product is one thing.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Boycotting every organization whose technology stack contains some form of artificial intelligence could eventually become impossible.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't say that as a gotcha.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think people who hold this position are genuinely going to have to work out where their line sits.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: The human bit still matters.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: For me, this is where philosophy matters.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe AI should replace human connection, particularly in talent.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want technology removing humanity from recruitment.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: I want technology removing the crap that prevents us from being human.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a huge difference, right?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: If I can automate repetitive administration and get an hour back, what am I doing with that hour?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully I'm talking to somebody, coaching a hiring manager, having a better conversation with a candidate, thinking more deeply about workforce planning, helping somebody navigate their career, solving a problem, building relationships, doing the things that humans are actually good at.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: The objective shouldn't be how many humans can we remove.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: It should be how much low-value work can we remove so our humans can spend more time doing high-value human work.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And organizations should absolutely be challenged on that.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're using AI purely because you can reduce headcount, that's worth questioning.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you're using AI without governance, then that's a problem.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you're feeding candidate information into systems without understanding where the data goes, then that's a problem, right?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: If algorithms are making consequential employment decisions without appropriate human oversight, then that's a really serious problem.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Ethical adoption matters.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Governance matters.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Human accountability matters.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: But rejecting AI altogether that's where I struggle.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So where are you going to work?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take the argument to its logical conclusion.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: You decide I will not work for an organization that uses artificial intelligence.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you go?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there are small businesses consciously choosing to remain AI free.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe some organizations will deliberately restrict particular types of AI.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there are businesses built around human craftsmanship that choose to differentiate themselves through minimum adoption.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Those organizations may absolutely exist.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: But across the broader labor market, think banks, retailers, universities, governments, charities, professional services, manufacturing, healthcare, logistics, media, technology.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: You'd need to understand not simply whether the organization has an AI strategy.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: You'd need to understand the technology inside practically every platform it uses.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: An organization might say, we don't use generative AI.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, its cybersecurity provider does.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Its CRM does.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Its recruitment software does.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Its cloud provider does.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: So where do you draw the line?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't use ChatGPT and I refuse to participate in an AI-enabled economy are completely different propositions.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that brings me to what I think is really the really interesting part of this conversation, truly.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: The people who refuse.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: We've spent enormous amounts of time discussing workers who might be displaced by AI.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what about workers who voluntarily remove themselves from AI-enabled work?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: A completely different labor market problem.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because an employer might not discriminate against them, their job might not disappear.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: They might have exactly the skills the organization needs.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: But if the organization's operating model requires humans and AI to work together, and that person refuses to participate, suddenly there's a capability mismatch.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Not because they can't perform the traditional job, because the definition of performing the job has changed.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Think about digital technology.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine someone saying, I'm an accountant, but I refuse to use spreadsheets.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's ridiculous.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a recruiter, but I refuse to use an ATS.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a designer, but I refuse to use digital design software.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I say ridiculous, but you could absolutely hold that position.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the labor market available to you would become dramatically smaller.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder whether AI eventually reaches that point?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe faster than previous technology transitions.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I think the conversation about employability becomes really interesting.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: We keep asking, will AI make people unemployable?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe there's another question.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Can someone's refusal to engage with AI eventually affect their employability?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know the answer yet.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we're going to find out.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: So don't turn this into adapt or die.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be careful here.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't want the conclusion of this episode to be get on board or become unemployable.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's just lazy.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And frankly, it's the sort of rhetoric that makes people distrust AI advocates in the first place, right?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Organizations have responsibilities too.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: You can't completely redesign someone's profession, throw a copilot license at them and say, congratulations, welcome to the future.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: People need education.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: They need training.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: They need psychological safety to experiment.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: They need boundaries.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: They need governance.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps most importantly, they need permission to question the technology.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: AI adoption cannot become ideological.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's dangerous from both directions.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: AI is evil and I will never touch it.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's ideological.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so is AI is inevitable, therefore every applic every application of it must be good, right?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Technology should earn its place.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: If it improves something, then brilliant.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: If it doesn't, don't use it.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: If it creates more work than it removes, then question it.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: If it damages human connection, redesign it.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: If it introduces unacceptable risk, stop.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if a human can do something materially better, and that human contribution actually matters, preserve it.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't about worshiping technology.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's about using the right tool for the right problem.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So interestingly, could AI free become a thing?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's another possibility that I find genuinely interesting.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe AI free workplaces actually become a niche.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Think about what we've seen in other markets.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Handmade, organic, locally produced, analog, vinyl records, film photography.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: With technology, sometimes people actively will seek the alternative.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll see creative agencies advertising that everything they produce is human-made.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe some professional service businesses promise that every interaction and every deliverable is human-created.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe employers deliberately build an EVP around limited AI adoption.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you'll actually see AI-free workplace.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps talented people who are deeply opposed to AI will deliberately seek those organizations.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's impossible.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I suspect it will be a niche.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because the economic incentives pushing organizations towards automation are enormous.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: If your competitors can remove thousands of hours of administration, improve access to information, move faster, and reduce costs, refusing the technology entirely becomes increasingly difficult.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe AI-free employment becomes a genuine career choice.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: But one that comes with a significantly smaller pool of opportunities.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if that's an informed choice based on somebody's values, then fair enough.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: We need the skeptics.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is probably the most important point I want to make today.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to love AI.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be excited about it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to use every new tool.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: You absolutely should question it.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Question the environmental impact.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Question what it means for creatives.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Question workforce consequences.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Question privacy.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Demand governance.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Demand transparency.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Demand human accountability.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Those conversations will make the technology better.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: We need skeptics in the room.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I'd go further.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: We desperately need skeptics in the room.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because a room full of people saying, This is amazing, let's automate everything, is exactly how organizations make terrible technology decisions.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: But skepticism and abstinence, the same thing.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you leave the room entirely, you lose your ability to influence what happens inside it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what concerns me about complete rejection.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: The future of work is being designed right now.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'd rather the people who are worried about AI help design that future than remove themselves from it.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And this changes recruitment.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: From a talent perspective, I think there's a lesson in those two candidate withdrawals as well.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: We need to get better at explaining the technology environment candidates are actually joining.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe candidates need to understand not simply here's your manager, here's your salary, here's your flexibility, here's the culture, but also how the work gets done.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Here's where we use AI.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Here's why.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Here's where we don't use it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what remains human.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what our ethical position is.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what you're expected to use.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And here's what you absolutely are allowed to challenge.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because technology philosophy is becoming part of the employment proposition.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd much rather somebody withdraw because we've been transparent than join based on an incomplete understanding of how the organization operates.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's not failed recruitment.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's informed choice.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: So those two candidate withdrawals genuinely made me stop and think.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Not because I believe they made the wrong decision, they made the decision that aligned with their values.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I respect that.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the bigger question isn't about two candidates, it's about what happens next.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because AI is moving from being a product we consciously choose to use to infrastructure sitting underneath how organizations operate.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when that happens, complete avoidance becomes increasingly difficult.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: So perhaps the career question of the next decade isn't will AI take my job?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe for some people it becomes: how much AI am I prepared to accept in order to participate in the modern workplace?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And employers need to answer the other side of that question.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: How much AI are we prepared to introduce before we start losing the human things that made our organization worth working for in the first place?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's the balance.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Adoption without ethics isn't progress.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Automation without humanity isn't transformation.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: But refusing to engage with technology that is becoming embedded across the economy comes with consequences too.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to be able to talk about those consequences without ridiculing the people making that choice.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: The future of work shouldn't be humans versus AI.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it shouldn't be AI at all costs.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: The interesting space is somewhere in the middle.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Humans setting the rules, humans challenging the technology, humans deciding where it belongs.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And technology doing what technology does best, so humans can have more capacity to do what we do best.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's the real challenge.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Not choosing between humans and AI, but making damn sure that AI becomes more powerful so we become more intentional about being human.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's it for this week's episode of Eden Haddock Total Talent.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Eden Haddock.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: No guests, no sponsors, just conversations about where talent and the world of work are actually heading.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: If this episode made you uncomfortable, good.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you disagree with me, also good.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think this is a conversation we're going to be having a lot more often.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Please follow Eden Haddock Total Talent on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and I'll catch you on the next one.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Rock and roll.