Transcript

Tammy Giffen · Called to Serve

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Hello and welcome to Called to Serve.
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Each week on this podcast, we share stories from women who
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have been ordained by the Canadian Baptists of Atlantic
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Canada. We have spoken with almost 100
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pastors, chaplains, missionaries, and community
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leaders as we learn what it's like to be a woman in ministry.
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Today you'll hear from Tammy Giffen.
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Tammy was ordained in 2020. She is the church planter and
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lead pastor of Groundswell Church in Truro, NS.
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Tammy talks about the challenges she has faced navigating her
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denomination in which leaders hold divergent views on women in
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ministry. She emphasizes the importance of
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mentoring upcoming female leaders as well as if not
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placing too much emphasis on one's pastoral identity.
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I was born in Halifax, NS. My parents are not Christians,
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but they kind of grew up in that era of taking your kids to
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church or going to church because it was the right thing
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to do. So when I was younger, we went
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to an Anglican church in my community.
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Looking back, I would say I learned a lot of my moral
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values, I would say from that experience.
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But as I got older, that's when I started to be like, I'm not
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sure about these people. They say one thing, but it's not
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what I see in their life. During that time, I probably
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grew a bit of a disdain for the church and for church people
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just based on what I learned in media or what I saw going on
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around me or whatever. And so I would say I was a
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person who believed in a God, but definitely a God that fit
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very conveniently in my box. You know, probably more like a
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vending machine sort of situation.
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In my late 20s, my husband's father passed away suddenly.
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I have a heart attack and we moved in with his mom and she
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started inviting us to Alpha. I said to my husband, I'm like,
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let's just go to this first dinner thing.
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She'll stop asking us, it'll be fine.
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We went to that first dinner, and I don't remember why this
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happened, but my husband left early for some reason.
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And I was there with the pastor. He asked me what I thought.
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And I was like, do you really want to know what I think?
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He said, yeah, I do. And so I probably railed at him
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for 25 minutes about everything, all my problems with the church
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and church people and all that stuff.
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And he just listened to me. And so I kept going back to
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Alpha. And it was through Alpha that I
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met Jesus. And I always tell people, like,
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I think there's a lot of people who just really never have an
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opportunity to meet the real Jesus.
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Like they based their opinions of Jesus on the things the
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church has done or that their experiences with church people.
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And I think that was definitely me.
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And so, yeah, I, I met the real Jesus and he changed my life.
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I started to go to church there at that little country church.
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I ended up on the worship team pretty quickly.
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I ended up serving in all these different areas.
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And then I was considering taking some classes at Acadia
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just to grow in my knowledge and I was a stay at home mom at the
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time. So I had three kids and when our
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first child was born I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do.
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I had worked a variety of jobs and I just never felt like I
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figured out who I was supposed to be when I grow up.
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When my youngest started school, ADC was doing Mondays in Metro.
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They were coming to Bedford. I live 30 minutes from Bedford.
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I'm like, I could do that. It's that night.
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And then the following year when my daughter started primary, I
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want to see if I could take classes during the day instead
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and actually go to Willfield. So I had to beg my way in with
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Glenn Wooden because I wanted to take classes during the day.
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But I don't have an undergrad, so I'd have to go to like a
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master's level class, but take it for like a BTH credit.
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So I had to beg my way in with the professor.
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That was the only way you could do it.
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So I just pestered him until he agreed.
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That's kind of how I ended up at Acadia that year.
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I took all my classes from Glenn and at the end of that year,
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Glenn called me into his office and I was like, Oh no, what did
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it? Because I spent the year really
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trying to prove myself to Glenn. I went into his office and he's
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like, I think you should be in the M division program.
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I said that's nice, but I don't have an undergrad so it's not
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possible and I'm not really sure I can do it.
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And he said no, I know you can do it.
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And I've already petitioned the Dean and they're going to let
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you in. All right.
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That day when I walked out of the division college, I just
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sensed God saying well done. You didn't know why, but you
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took the steps. So I did my degree.
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It took me 10 years total. I did it part time because I was
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working part time at the church. I had three kids.
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Like part of it was Stuyak Baptist Church.
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They didn't have a pastor. And I was filling in in all
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these different areas, and it just got to a point where I was
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like, oh, I'm maybe I'm supposed to be the pastor.
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And they were like, maybe Tammy's supposed to be the
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pastor. And so it's a really cool story.
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Like the church I got saved in, I ended up pastoring in.
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There were actually people at that church who didn't want a
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female pastor, but they kind of grew over time too, because I
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was there and I was serving and they were like watching my gifts
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develop. And so the church asked me if I
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would be an interim pastor all together.
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I did interim and then I was the solo pastor there for like 3 1/2
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years. My husband came to faith a
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couple years after me. And then our kids grew up in the
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church and they're all musical. So we were often like the Von
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Trapp family of Sunday morning, which was fun.
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So we didn't. We just really did ministry
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together. I think balance is an illusion.
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There's so much pressure to balance your life and you feel
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guilty when you can't. I try not to even use the word
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balance anymore because different seasons require
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different amounts of attention for certain things, right?
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And I think it's harder for women.
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I I think we'd be lying to say that it's not.
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And my husband is great and there's still these sort of
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underlying, these are women's responsibilities.
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It's just a real thing. So, you know, he's not thinking
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about whether or not we have food to feed these kids and make
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their lunches tomorrow. You know, like, that's not at
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the top of his mind. And only your mom can be your
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mom. So I think there's always going
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to be a challenge in balancing that.
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And so some seasons were really pushing at the church and I, my
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focus needed to be there. Or sometimes my kids were
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competitive dancers to my kids. So like that was super busy and
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I wanted to be really involved in it.
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I saw it like a bit of a mission field because I got to hang out
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with all these parents all the time.
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So for me, I let go of balance long ago and really kind of
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leaned more into priority, like what's a priority right now?
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Who who's my priority right now? Where do I have to focus my
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attention? And that doesn't mean that you
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just drop everything else. But yeah, there just are times
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where your priorities have to shift for a little bit.
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I left STIAC and went to Emmanuel and Churro for a while.
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It was tough. That was a hard transition.
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I was hired on for basically sort of like community
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development, so outreach, trying to get the church into the
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community more. So that was a multi staff
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church. I ended up doing that and
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worship and then Emmanuel went through really challenging
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season. They lost their lead pastor.
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There's a lot of struggle. So I ended up kind of moving
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into a little more of AI don't even I didn't have a title, but
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leading the board through a really challenging time.
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And then when we planted grass, all that was a whole other ball
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game. I would never have thought I'd
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church plant. It was pretty daunting because I
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still don't know of any like female pastors who church plant
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like who are solo church planting.
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So like my husband, he has his own career.
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He serves at the church, but we don't pastor together.
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And so I, you know, started to stick my nose into some of these
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church planting networks and they're all like husband, wife
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teams and I went to a church planting training thing.
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Like we were just sort of checking out this one network.
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And I definitely got passed over multiple times for the, the guys
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in the room. So it became very obvious to me
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pretty quickly that, oh, this isn't normal, But I feel like
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that's just me. Not very normal.
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I do everything backwards. If I had not been called to it,
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there's no way I could have done it because it was, it was hard.
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Grant Swell has been an absolute joy.
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We have seen so many people come to know Jesus, which is why we
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exist. We started Portable.
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We launched a second location, Portable right before COVID.
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Like we had nowhere. Like for five months we did
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everything out of my living room.
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I mean, fortunately my husband's a video editor, so that was
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really helpful. And that season and then we
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inherited First Baptist Church. They're building downtown during
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COVID, which was wild. Like we said no for a long time
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because we never wanted an old church building downtown.
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But then God used that to shape us into a different kind of
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community that cared for another demographic of people that we
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didn't know we would end up being right in the middle of,
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which has been beautiful too. And yeah, we, we really open
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handed, honestly. Like we really try to go where
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God tells us to go. And if he doesn't, we try not to
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go there. The great thing about planting a
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church is like everybody knows what they're getting when they
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come. They know that if they're coming
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here, there's a lead female pastor.
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So generally speaking, I, we don't have any problems that the
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first challenge I've had came just recently with someone who
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came into the church and then they kicked up a little bit of a
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stink, but everyone was like, just go somewhere else.
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So like, if you don't like it, just go somewhere else.
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Most of my challenges honestly come in the denomination, trying
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to work on committees with men who are pastors who don't agree
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with women in ministry. I literally had somebody in a
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meeting say to me, because I was supposed to chair this
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committee, and I literally had another pastor say with all
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these other men that he couldn't take directions from a woman.
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And they all laughed about it. They just all laughed.
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That's the most stark one. But I've had a couple instances
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like that where it was very clear that me being a part of
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that group was not help in their mind, it was a hindrance.
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The other thing that I find super challenging is I struggle
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to understand how the denomination ordains and
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celebrates women, but to just have autonomy in that particular
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area and it comes up all the time.
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Like I'm so tired of honestly. My question was who decides what
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fits under the category of autonomy and what doesn't fit
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under the category of autonomy? How did that end up there?
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Can we just pick what we are and be done with it?
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Like if we're going to be egalitarian and let's be
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egalitarian across the board. If we're going to be
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complimentary and let's be complimentary and across the
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board. But what's really hard is like
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the men who talk about it, they don't understand what it's like.
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They think it's OK that we can just allow everybody to do their
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own thing and that's OK. Like it's OK that we have some
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things that are, you know, we don't agree on.
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It's it's, that's a great thing about autonomy.
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OK, But if you're a me and you're in an environment where
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the expectation from the denomination is that I'm going
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to work with these pastors to build the denomination to be
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part of the family, but I am actually not welcomed into some
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parts of the family. I don't know how to work in that
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environment. I don't know how to contribute.
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And it, I know that these guys, like, they're awesome and I
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loved most of them, but they just can't get it because
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they'll never have to. They will never get passed over
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for somebody because of their gender, ever.
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They'll walk into a room and they will be the first ones
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that, you know, other male leaders approach like they will
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never experience it. And so I used to jump in on any
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committee that anybody asks me to be on.
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I just don't do it anymore. I don't need that.
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I don't want to be a token. And I also don't need to try to
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figure out who's with me and who's against me so that I can
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figure out how to navigate and make everybody feel OK.
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I've often had people who want me to kind of get on the rah rah
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women in ministry bandwagon. I have always just decided it's
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not going to be me standing on a soapbox yelling at everybody
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that women should have rights and women should have wait.
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That's not it's not going to work that way.
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I think the real change will come as people like me just go
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do what God called us to do and do it well and with integrity
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and let that be a witness and see if I can pave some more Rd.
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for the women coming behind me. My role is to snow plow, like
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make a little more room for them.
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There are so many females out there who probably are called to
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ministry, but just don't get that opportunity to actually
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figure out who they are as a leader.
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One of the things that that's holding back women leaders in
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the church is that most churches are led by men and they struggle
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to figure out how to mentor these young females coming up in
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their midst, which is fair. But don't just not do it because
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you can't figure it out. And I have these conversations
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all the time with my male friends who are lead pastors
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because they say they support women, but practically speaking,
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they don't always. They take the guys out fishing
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and mentor them that way. But they're like, well, I can't
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do that with a female. I'm like, we'll do something
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different. Find a different way to mentor
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these because you see their gifts.
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So find different ways. Pour into them.
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Figure out how to do it. I figured out how to work with
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men. You can figure out how to work
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with women. Go get somebody to help you.
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That's and that's what I push them on.
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I'm like, if you need help figuring this out, I will help
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you. So I'm a little hardcore with my
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friends, but the denomination haven't had great experiences
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there and so I don't contribute as much as I probably could
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because of it. I don't find that I have
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challenges outside of the denomination because I've built
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this really incredible network of leaders across Atlanta,
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Canada, across Canada. Like I don't know many women who
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have those kinds of networks because they're all men and
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they're awesome. And I have met other female
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pastors now across Canada because I network with Alpha and
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I also network with the Canadian Church Leaders Network.
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I'm on the board there and, and I also do work with training up
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women leaders through Alpha. So Shayla Visser, who is the
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national director, a couple years ago she did a cohort, like
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a trial cohort, trying to find high capacity female leaders
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across the country and then having other female pastors kind
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of speak into that cohort. So I, I actually ended up
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mentoring 5 female pastors in that.
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But through that I've met some other lead female pastors, which
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has been great. But honestly, like across
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Canada, there aren't a lot there.
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There are some who like Co pastor, which is awesome, but
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it's it's different when you're the lead and you're not Co
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pastoring with somebody else. I think there's another part of
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leading as a female that you have to become OK with.
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And don't take this the wrong way because I'm not saying we
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need to just be second to every male because I don't think that.
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But I think it needs to become more important to you to to be
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serving the Lord than serving man.
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Men will always get more recognition than you will, even
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if you did it all. You have to become OK with
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honoring God and knowing that I did what He asked me to and just
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serving Him. Am I OK with that?
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Is that enough? This is really going to sound
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terrible, and I know it sounds terrible, but I really didn't
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care about ordination all that much.
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Part of it is I didn't grow up in that church, so I don't have
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this like, deep sense of tradition.
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Ordination sort of seemed irrelevant in some ways.
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And I understand like as a denomination we need, but just
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me personally, like it didn't matter to me very much.
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I didn't I didn't get ordained and be like, this is like the
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greatest accomplishment ever. It was just like, OK, what's
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like, what are we doing tomorrow?
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Like we did it and it was nice. But I just try to not think of
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myself as a woman in ministry. You know, as I help other young
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leaders, I try to help them not think of themselves that way
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either, because you will be looked at that way enough from
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other people. I am part of the body.
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I have certain gifts that God's given to me and I need to use
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them. And so let's try to lean into
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the gifts that God's given me and use them where He asks me to
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when He does and not make as much of a big deal out of it as
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I think sometimes we do and can. There are things about me not
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growing up in the church that I think actually helped me because
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I meet young female leaders who have a lot of baggage.
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They feel called, but they just believe that because of their
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church experiences that I'm not supposed to feel called.
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Like I'm not supposed to do this.
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And it holds them back. But for me, like I had none at
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every step of the way, it was just really me following God.
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And when people ask me about that, I often just because
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they're like, you have this big plan and you're well, I still
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don't. I still really just try to
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follow where the Spirit is leading.
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And just like if God is opening a door, then I'm going to walk
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through. It's just what I've done from
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the very beginning from, oh, I'll go take some courses out of
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Katie because I feel like that's where God's leading me to, oh, I
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guess he's like asking me to take on like some sort of
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pastoral duty here at this church.
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OK, I'll do that. Oh, he's like sending me
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somewhere else. Took him nine months to convince
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me of that one. And then Groundswell is just
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like, OK, like if this is what you're saying, I'm just going to
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trust that you're going to work this out.
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And so that's just been my whole life with Jesus.
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Essentially, if you put your head down and you do what God
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has called you to do, he'll use you to to do incredible things,
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There'll be people who will end up in eternity because of you
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that this doesn't get better than that.
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I think there are some women who end up off the bench because
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they had a disillusioned idea of what it was going to be like.
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And we don't need people coming out of the game.
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We need more people coming into the game.
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But if we can build them out to be resilient, then they have a
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chance. No, then they have a real
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chance. And so I think there has to be
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like this deep sense within you that no, I just, I served one, I
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served one person like I served Jesus.
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If I've served him well, that's all that matters.
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At the end of the day, Jesus is going to be the one who's going
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to say well done, good and faithful servant, not anybody
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else. Thank you, Tammy for sharing
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your story with us Called to Serve.
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We'll be back on the 23rd after a short break for Thanksgiving.
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Make sure you're here for our next episode as we have a big
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announcement to share. In the meantime, our project can
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to date with our latest research and events at Called to
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serve.ca.