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Why Women Undermine Other Women at Work · Loud & Lifted

0:00
We talk a lot about the boys club. And yes, the
0:02
boys club is real. But I have said many times
0:05
on this podcast, the bigger problem may be that
0:08
women haven't built a supportive community. And
0:10
while we love to say women supporting women,
0:13
many women have experienced something very different.
0:16
Being excluded, undermined, talked about, having
0:18
their credibility questioned, watching another
0:21
woman intentionally make their job or their life
0:24
more difficult. And we usually don't talk about
0:27
it. Partly because we don't want to reinforce
0:30
the stereotype that women are jealous or dramatic
0:32
or we can't work together, but staying quiet
0:35
does not make the problem go away. My guest today,
0:39
Vanessa Vershaw, is an organizational psychologist,
0:42
leadership expert, and the author of The Sisterhood
0:44
Paradox. Her research explores why women undermine
0:48
other women, what real workplace bullying looks
0:51
like, why these experiences can be so damaging,
0:54
and what it will take to create a different kind
0:57
of sisterhood. This conversation is honest at
1:00
times, it's uncomfortable, and it's exactly the
1:03
conversation we need to be having. Building a
1:06
stronger community does not mean pretending women
1:08
always support one another. It means being willing
1:11
to talk honestly about why we sometimes don't
1:15
and choosing to do better. Welcome to Loud and
1:19
Lifted. Vanessa, thank you so much for being
1:21
here. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure, Betsy. I've
1:24
been so excited to get on your podcast and have
1:27
this conversation about such an important topic.
1:31
Yes, and you, first of all, win the award of
1:33
being the furthest away guests we've ever had
1:35
on this podcast. You were literally around the
1:37
globe. And despite the fact, everybody will know
1:41
when you talk right where you're from, but despite
1:42
the fact that you are around the globe from us.
1:45
You have the same issues in Australia as we do
1:49
in the United States and so much that you have
1:51
written a book about it. And I love this. This
1:54
talks to my core of what our podcast is about.
1:57
So you call it the sisterhood paradox. So let's
2:00
get into it. What is the sisterhood paradox?
2:03
Yeah. So it's this notion, the paradox of female
2:07
relationships and specifically focusing at work
2:11
where You know, the expectation is that because
2:14
we're female, we're sisters and we look after
2:17
one another, you know, we help each other in
2:19
the workplace, you know, because there are so
2:21
few of us represented at the top and it's quite
2:24
hard to get there. But no, there is this huge
2:29
piece of work and research and statistics that
2:33
actually showcase something very alarming and
2:35
that is that of all the bullying cases. 80 %
2:40
of a bullying at work incidences of a woman are
2:44
by another woman, not by a man. And so as an
2:51
organizational psychologist and social scientist,
2:54
I decided to go a little bit deeper into understanding
2:57
what is going on in the world. It's not just
3:01
in Australia and New Zealand, in America as well.
3:04
What is going on and what do we do about it?
3:08
And Is it actually affecting our ability as a
3:13
society to progress in terms of gender equality?
3:16
So these are some of the questions I went out
3:20
to answer through writing this book. So when
3:25
you started talking about this, were people surprised?
3:29
Absolutely. Well, well, well, okay. I think the
3:34
first response was absolutely because that was
3:36
PC. But when I actually broke through the surface
3:40
and said, really? You've never had an experience
3:44
like this? Nine out of ten of the women that
3:47
I spoke to said, well, actually, let's meet one
3:51
on one and I'll talk to you about it. And it
3:54
was really, really powerful because I interviewed
3:57
a lot of very powerful women. I mean, we had
4:00
one Australia's foreign minister in there. And
4:02
if you read the book, some very high profile
4:04
women in Australia and indeed globally. And most
4:09
of them, when they're in meeting with me, after
4:12
about 20 minutes were just absolute puddles.
4:16
They broke down. Showcasing the far -reaching
4:19
impact of when women mistreat other women, it
4:22
actually hurts us more. And so much so that many
4:27
of these women are being treated for post -traumatic
4:29
stress disorder as a result. So it's a huge impact.
4:34
Why do you think we're afraid to talk about it?
4:37
Well, there are a few reasons. I mean, I think
4:39
one and the most obvious is that, you know, because
4:43
we've got the huge gender equality abyss, let's
4:47
just say women who talk about this stuff are
4:50
seen as creating an even bigger divide and not
4:53
helping the sisterhood. That's kind of the one
4:56
thing. The other thing is that there are some
4:59
women who haven't been affected by it and so
5:01
therefore it must not happen. you know it's I
5:04
call it the pink elephant right it's it didn't
5:07
happen to me therefore it's not happening so
5:11
that's the other thing and I think the third
5:13
thing is it can be a career delimiter right I
5:17
mean as a female if you start talking about this
5:20
in the workplace it's not very kosher we've got
5:23
typically reporting into male leaders and they
5:26
just see us as involving in bitch slapping behavior
5:30
complaining and being all there's that woman
5:32
there she is being emotional there's nothing
5:36
to it it's absolute rubbish and in fact that's
5:39
not the case it's actually quite prolific happens
5:43
frequently and definitely Australia and New Zealand
5:47
are leading the charge Not necessarily from a
5:51
female at work bullying perspective, because
5:53
we don't have enough stats to back that up. Actually,
5:56
it's more in your country. The Institute of Bullying
5:58
in the US has the stats on that. But we are definitely
6:02
leading the charge in terms of bullying in the
6:05
playground. And we've had quite a number of incidences
6:09
in Australia where little girls have been bullied
6:13
by other girls at school and leading to disastrous
6:17
consequences. I do believe as a psychologist
6:21
if we look at cause and effect, it's starting
6:24
early and it's being dragged into the workplace
6:28
because we're not effectively neutralizing it
6:31
when it happens at a much younger age and so
6:35
it's just getting pulled in. And that's a very
6:38
simplistic view. I mean there are a few reasons
6:40
why it happens. The other thing is when we go
6:42
into organisational life, you know, cultures
6:45
are still dominated by men and so you know, naturally
6:50
we're going to try and survive in cultures where
6:52
we aren't the dominant species. And a lot of
6:56
women that I've spoken to, some of them have
7:00
ended up actually being the bullies without realising
7:02
it, which is really interesting. Yes, it's not
7:05
always obvious. Either the act of being bullied
7:10
by a woman because it's indirect and perhaps
7:12
we'll get into that, or identifying that actually
7:15
you're a bully. Yes, let's talk about that. Yeah,
7:22
let's talk about that. What does that look like?
7:24
What does that bully, aggressive behavior look
7:26
like just in case? Well, let's just level set
7:28
just so everybody understands what this actually
7:31
translates to. Yeah. So look, the most traditional
7:34
form with women is indirect. So we tend to play
7:36
quite dirty. as women, we do, we play it quite
7:40
dirty. So some of the tactics are quite indirect.
7:42
So they might be things like gaslighting the
7:45
woman or white hunting or spreading rumors about
7:49
promiscuity. That's a big one. It's called slut
7:52
shaming, actually. Sorry for your listeners.
7:55
No, love it. I mean, I don't love it, but yes,
7:57
call it what it is. we actually reduce the value
8:02
of the violence we say in psychology of that
8:05
woman in the workplace by saying she got the
8:07
job because she slept with so -and -so. Oh, that's
8:10
funny. That was my post on Instagram last week
8:13
was about that somebody started a rumor that
8:16
I became the CEO of my past company because I
8:18
slept with the founder. And people literally
8:20
were texting me, my friends are like, is this
8:22
true? Did you just make this up? I'm like, No,
8:24
I did not make this up. I would never make this
8:27
up. But that was their way of trying to ruin
8:29
my credibility within a company. Absolutely.
8:32
And we go low and we go dirty, right? Right.
8:35
And the other one is fat shaming. That's actually
8:38
on the wire. So fat shaming is a big one in the
8:40
workplace. But unfortunately, bullying tactics
8:44
have become quite sophisticated as well. So with
8:47
the advent of technology and cyber, of course,
8:50
we've got trolling. We've now got mobbing. So,
8:54
mobbing is where a woman will recruit other members
9:00
of her organization to go and target and bully
9:04
an individual, another woman, but they're like
9:07
Teflon, so they send other people to go and do
9:09
dirty work and they walk away. And another one
9:13
that happened recently, and I talked about it
9:15
in my book, I was sitting at a golf... course
9:19
with a group of guys that I've been working with.
9:22
And one of them was telling me about the organization
9:24
that he works in, where the managing director
9:27
asked his female office manager to recruit for
9:31
a new PA for the firm. It was an engineering
9:34
firm. It is an engineering firm. And he said,
9:37
but here's what I want you to do. I want you
9:39
to run it like a hung game scenario. where you
9:42
put the women through the most heinous trials
9:45
and tribulations, where you try to break them,
9:49
so that only the woman that survives gets the
9:53
job. What? And yeah, it's all in my book. And
9:58
the office manager, a female, did it. Oh my gosh.
10:03
Honestly, Betsy, I don't know what to do with
10:06
that one. Right. Right? But this is... what's
10:11
happening. And of course the other issue is,
10:13
and I'll probably get voted off the island, a
10:15
lot of these women led organisations that are
10:20
big in name and very high society and high propriety
10:24
are often run by women who are taking other women
10:28
down. And I've got countless examples, as I said,
10:32
of very high profile women here in Australia
10:34
and beyond who won't join these organisations.
10:39
even though they know it's career suicide, because
10:41
you've got to be part of it, right? Because it's
10:45
run by these Miranda type characters, you know,
10:51
thick devil wears Prada. So it is extremely common.
10:55
And the other side to this is, as part of my
10:59
research, I interviewed men and I asked them,
11:01
what do you think about all of this? You know,
11:03
very high up in organizations as well, because
11:05
I tend to work with more men than women in my
11:07
line of work. And there were a couple of responses.
11:11
One was, oh, that's not really happening, is
11:13
it? So that was just, you know, honestly, don't
11:18
get me started on that one. I just felt like
11:19
clobbering them. And then the second one said,
11:24
oh, I actually like it when that happens because...
11:27
Stuff it. Yeah. And particularly, I like it when
11:30
they do that because with all these women getting
11:33
jobs that they don't really deserve to fit a
11:36
quota, it means that I've... I can actually get
11:39
a Guernsey now and they can't use the token female
11:43
card. So when women fight and tear each other
11:46
down, it's really good for my career. I say,
11:49
see, they shouldn't be in leadership roles. So,
11:53
you know, yeah. So, you know, this is all happening.
11:58
It's prolific. Nobody really talks about it all
12:02
that much, although it has become a little more
12:04
frequent. But part of the reason why I wrote
12:07
the book is personal. You know, not only my own
12:11
experiences being bullied for many, many years
12:13
and throughout my career, I was a very young
12:15
executive, blah, blah, blah. But I had two of
12:19
my clients take their own lives as a result of
12:22
being bullied by other women. And when I found
12:27
out that I was pregnant with a little girl, I
12:30
just said, you know what, enough. enough, I've
12:32
got to write the guidebook for her to navigate
12:34
this crazy world of work that we're in. And so
12:37
I've dedicated the book to my daughter and to
12:40
all our daughters to say, Hey, I know you might
12:43
not want to hear this, but should I go, here
12:48
is my legacy. And this is what I want you to
12:50
know. And in the book, it's full of how do you
12:53
actually rise above it? How do you deal with
12:55
it? you know, how do you get through it? How
12:57
do you recognize it even? Something that's this,
13:00
you know, this pink elephant that is so invisible
13:03
because of the way it's played these days that
13:06
often we don't even know it's happening. And
13:08
if we do, we're discounted, you know. And so
13:12
that's why I wrote the book. But I will tell
13:15
you a very inspiring experience. As a result
13:19
of writing the book, I was asked to speak at
13:22
the World Women Foundation as part of the World
13:24
Economic Forum in Davos in January in Switzerland.
13:29
And I was asked to talk about, uh, represent
13:32
Australia on advancing gender equality. And look,
13:35
I was absolutely terrified because we're not
13:37
doing well, right? So I was thinking, oh my,
13:39
oh my Lord. Livestream to millions around the
13:44
world. We've got a full packed room, standing
13:47
room only. I'm competing with Donald Trump and
13:50
Zuckerberg. There's little old me on the stage
13:53
with all these diplomats and I'm thinking, holy
13:56
moly, I've got nothing good to say. How do I
13:59
talk about this? And the moderator, who's a bit
14:03
cheeky, Dr. Sandy Chong, decides that she's gonna
14:07
tell them I'm writing this. I'm going to get
14:12
voted off this stage. I'm going to get the boos
14:15
and the hisses. And she says, as she said to
14:18
Sandy Chong with the UAE, she says, so Vanessa,
14:23
you can actually look at this. I understand you're
14:26
writing a book on women, female aggression at
14:29
work. Do you want to tell us about that? And
14:32
after I'd spoken to the crowd and my knees are
14:36
knocking, not really, but I was petrified. My
14:39
best friend is in the front door going, oh my
14:41
God, because she knew I hadn't prepared for it.
14:43
My best friend, Sarah. Oh my God. And what happened?
14:49
They stood up and they just started crying. And
14:54
they said, oh my God, someone is talking about
14:59
this. Thank you. It was. Just incredible the
15:06
lift talk about the lift effect of women supporting
15:09
women in the room and there were many in there
15:11
as well some great some crazy dudes But it was
15:15
extraordinary response and so I think at those
15:18
levels We understand world leaders understand.
15:22
We need to be thinking about this But you know,
15:26
that's why what you're doing today is so important
15:28
Betsy because you're raising the conversation
15:30
and consciousness around those invisible threats,
15:34
those silent, lesser known things that are happening
15:37
that can actually affect our ability for all
15:41
of us to thrive, you know, in life and at work.
15:45
And the book is about allyship, actually. It's
15:48
about what if we didn't do this? And we actually
15:51
tried something else. We tried collaboration
15:53
over competition. We actually recognized that
15:55
by behaving in this way, We're actually punching
15:59
ourselves in the face Don't you think like we're
16:07
actually hurting ourselves like some form of
16:09
self torture, you know and and Destruction and
16:15
we don't even realize it. So I gosh I agree with
16:20
everything that you said and especially, you
16:22
know, you're right, experiencing so much of that
16:24
firsthand through my career. Nobody talking about
16:26
it, right? We get so fixated on the boys club
16:28
and that's what we want to blame is the men.
16:31
And as I always say, the boys club exists. Great.
16:34
I'm glad that they support each other. The problem
16:36
is that we as women don't have a club or community
16:39
or anything where we're supportive. And that's
16:41
the imbalance. And again, I have two teen daughters,
16:44
too. So that was part of my why of even talking
16:48
about it. And now they're 18 and 15. They're
16:50
very aware. They'll call people out. And again,
16:53
they're not perfect. I'm not claiming that. But
16:55
they're just aware of the way girls at their
16:58
ages treat each other or what they see on a TV
17:00
show or whatever. with being aware of this is
17:04
happening and then having the opportunities to
17:07
be able to fix it, support it, not do it to other
17:10
people, right? Be aware of that. I guess, why
17:13
does this happen when you research so much with
17:16
women? Like, what's the cause or the drive of
17:18
these behaviors? I mean, there's a couple of
17:21
things. The most simply put is that we are animals,
17:27
right? And at the end of the day, when we're
17:30
in cultures and environments, where, you know,
17:33
there's a struggle for resources, there's limited
17:36
resources, it's, you know, survival of the fittest.
17:39
You know, survival instinct kicks in sometimes
17:41
without us even realising, you know, and does
17:45
that mean, much like Cesar Milan, the dog whisperer
17:49
talks about, you know, well, this is just, you
17:51
know, bitch behaviour, and if you look at his
17:54
theory, it would suggest that we don't have a
17:57
choice. Well, we're not animals, we're not chimps,
18:01
we're not dogs. So I would suggest that the intelligence
18:05
that we've been given from God or whoever, supreme
18:07
creator, means that we can be smarter, we can
18:11
be more clever, and we do have a choice. But
18:14
it starts with the awareness to making choices
18:16
about how we're gonna behave. Now, I'm gonna
18:18
put myself on the line and say, when I started
18:21
researching this and also through my own... awful
18:25
experiences, you know, at school and then later
18:28
in the workplace. Have I had moments where I've
18:31
been an absolute bitch? Absolutely. I'm not guilt
18:35
free. However, there is a difference between
18:39
being a bitch and being a bully. This book is
18:43
about bullying. So what is bullying? and what
18:46
is the difference? Because we tend to just throw
18:48
around the world bullying, like garden variety.
18:50
Bullying is not if some woman eye rolls you once.
18:54
Bullying is not if someone calls you a, you know,
18:57
a hoe bag once. That's not bullying, okay? Bullying
19:01
is repeated attempts to take you down. So it's
19:05
the intent to maim and destroy on a repetitious
19:09
basis. It's not just once, it's not just twice,
19:13
it's continuous. and it's calculated, much like
19:17
intent in any legal case for murder. Can you
19:22
establish mens rea? Can you establish that there
19:24
was intent to kill? It's the same thing with
19:27
bullying. It's got to be repetitive. So I do
19:32
think that we've got a problem with the term
19:35
bullying. I think we've weaponized it in the
19:37
workplace. I think it's overused. And so the
19:40
power of it and really understanding what it
19:42
is has been diluted. This book is really those
19:45
women who try to take down other women. That's
19:48
what I'm talking about, right? That's a great
19:51
distinction. Yeah, I love that. And you're right.
19:54
I think we're all guilty of being a bitch at
19:56
times. I certainly could raise my hand on that.
19:58
Who isn't, right? Yeah, the the intention and
20:03
and being malicious about taking someone down
20:05
is is very different and and you're right here
20:07
in the states We have been throwing the word
20:09
around bullying a lot and a lot of times it's
20:11
in school and you know high school kids It's
20:13
it's the younger kids that then when people use
20:15
it in a workplace. I think you get that eye roll,
20:18
right? Like, oh, bullying, you're just being
20:19
dramatic. Like, it's just gotten this negative
20:22
connotation, unfortunately, and it's, and it's
20:24
so true. But I love that definition, because
20:26
it goes back to like, it's being intentional,
20:28
trying to hurt someone and take someone down.
20:30
And that's a great distinction. Very much so.
20:33
And it's interesting on that note, you know,
20:34
you talked about boys clubs and girls clubs or
20:37
women's clubs. So a couple of things, one of
20:39
the tactics for women who are bullies is social
20:41
ostracism. So exclusion. Exclusion is one of
20:46
the most powerful and well -used forms of bullying
20:50
by women, which is, again, why it's so hard to
20:53
see, because it could be even, you know, using
20:56
the dreaded VCC function on an email, which is
20:59
probably, right? That's bullying. That can be
21:01
bullying, repeated, where you just don't include
21:04
someone. They're left out of the loop continuously
21:06
and intentionally. The other thing around boys
21:08
and women's clubs is the problem that you've
21:11
got is a couple of things. One, a lot of women's
21:13
clubs have become actual, you know, hotbeds for
21:17
bullying. So that's what we talked about before.
21:22
The other issue we've got is that because a lot
21:24
of women are so sick of these boys clubs, they
21:27
choose to go to these women only things, which
21:30
means we are not represented where we need to
21:34
be. And I would say to any of your audience,
21:37
don't do it. Don't opt out of going to networking
21:41
events and just go to check events. You are actually
21:45
doing your career a disservice. You must go to
21:50
both. One is for moral support. It's a different
21:53
kind of support. The other is you must be visible.
21:57
If you're an ambitious woman and you want to
21:59
do well, you've got to be seen, you've got to
22:02
be at these things, you know. I find with my
22:05
line of work, I do some crazy stuff. I really
22:07
push myself out there. So I will go to events
22:10
where I know no women will be. The most random,
22:15
like last week I went to Innovation in Shark
22:18
Nets, you know, swimming in the ocean. And I
22:21
met all these crazy male innovators about shark
22:24
neck technology. I know nothing about it, but
22:27
you know what? For me, it's part of building
22:30
those skills as well. Being in those environments,
22:34
which are male dominated, where I have got no
22:37
right to be. And yes, I was the only woman in
22:41
the room, Betsy. It was awesome. All of the guys
22:47
coming after me, talking to me. You feel welcome.
22:52
I'm working with this institute, this Ocean's
22:55
Place as a result. Absolutely fantastic. So we
22:59
have to take a few risks. And that means not
23:02
just going back to the chicks, because that's
23:06
not going to help us either. We can't go the
23:09
other way. We have to be in both places. And
23:12
that's really important. But make sure if we
23:15
are going to the chick events or the women's
23:17
only things, that the sisters that are running
23:20
those events actually stand for what you believe
23:23
in. And they're not part of that, you know, the
23:27
other side because they will take you down. Make
23:30
no mistake about it. And I see it all the time.
23:33
And you're so right. Those are the worst ones
23:35
because on the surface you think they are women
23:38
supporting women and they're there and this is
23:41
a group. And I mean, I've been part of them,
23:42
right? And all this, it's our tribe and we're
23:45
so supportive. And all of a sudden you're like,
23:47
Holy cow, what just happened? Like the bottom
23:49
just falls out because you are discluded, you're
23:51
bullied, and you're like, shit, I thought this
23:53
was a tribe, right? Like what's going on? And
23:56
it's some of those women or those groups that
23:58
do, they surprise you that they have this front,
24:02
that they're, you know, this great supportive
24:04
group. So if a woman's listening to this and
24:06
they're like, oh shit, I am definitely being
24:09
bullied, whether it's at work or in one of these
24:11
groups, like how do we handle this when it's
24:13
happening to us? It's so hard, right? When we're
24:15
so caught up in it. Yeah, look, there's a there's
24:18
a lot of different steps. The first thing I'd
24:20
say is are you actually being bullied? You know,
24:24
like what is going on and I think that would
24:28
be the first place I would go is try to understand
24:30
like what's this? What is this bullying situation
24:33
that I'm having and I'd go and seek counsel on
24:36
that to just either speak to somebody who you
24:39
can trust that's quite well versed in these things
24:42
or you could go and see even somebody in HR if
24:46
you trust them, you know, to find out whether
24:49
it really is that kind of a scenario, because
24:53
I think that's the first thing. And then really
24:57
it depends on who it is as well, you know, if
25:00
it's a superior it's going to be very hard to
25:03
address, okay, and if the culture of your organization
25:06
doesn't support action around these things, I'm
25:11
going to be honest with you, there's not really
25:13
that much you can do. You know, you kind of have
25:16
to go up. You've got to move out. And what I'd
25:19
say is you've got to move out before your confidence
25:22
is so low that you actually leave the organization
25:26
in a puddle and you don't have strength to fight
25:28
or look for another opportunity. The problem
25:30
with women is we soldier on. And we stay and
25:35
we say, it's not that bad. We minimize it. I've
25:38
been through worse. got this. The stats also
25:42
show something interesting globally that women
25:44
don't tend to use the EAP service, the Employment
25:48
Assistance Program. They don't seek out support
25:51
at work at all because they're worried about
25:55
how it looks and we don't get help either. So
25:58
you can see where I'm going with, you know, if
26:02
something's really going on, you need to get
26:04
support before it ruins your prospects for the
26:07
next role. Because that's what we tend to do
26:10
and I will I will often meet up with women on
26:13
that I'll end up coaching them and they're absolute
26:15
post -traumatic stress situation and They're
26:19
they're just a shadow of their former selves
26:22
How can I possibly coach them to go back out
26:24
in the world when they're like that? It's gonna
26:26
take me six months So don't let it get there.
26:30
Yeah figure out what you're dealing with Get
26:32
some advice get some legal counsel if you need
26:35
to and then make a decision If you are dreading
26:40
going to work every day and it's been going on
26:42
for a while, then it's probably time to rethink
26:46
whether you want to be part of that organization
26:48
or not, and whether there are other prospects.
26:52
Now, I understand what I'm saying. For some women,
26:54
that's really tricky too, because jobs are hard
26:57
to find, finding the right job. But at least
27:01
you've got to start preparing for that next one.
27:03
And that's what I always say, start looking.
27:06
start looking, get on the horse and really reframe
27:10
the work experience that you're having as, I'm
27:13
just here until I find my next one. I'm actively
27:15
seeking help. I'm making it work for me for now.
27:19
And I'm just going to, I know this person's doing
27:21
what they're doing, but I'm just going to deal
27:23
with it until I get out, but have an exit strategy.
27:25
That's what I would say, have an exit strategy.
27:28
The other thing of course, is if you can speak
27:30
to the person, then that would be the best situation.
27:34
But you have to determine whether that person's
27:37
safe or not. Because again, if they're in a power
27:39
position and it's a bully in a power position,
27:43
you're going to end up probably being the one
27:45
that takes it. That's the reality because, and
27:50
here's another thing, real female bullies usually
27:55
have some form of psychopathology. Give us a
27:59
little bit more about that. So you may have heard
28:02
of narcissism, things like this, you know, bipolar
28:08
personality disorders, you know, all histrionic
28:12
personality disorders, sociopathology, you know,
28:15
all these different beautiful minglings of ingredients
28:19
that create someone whose neurochemistry is off.
28:22
And that's typically what we see a very high
28:26
proportion of true female bullies are actually
28:30
unwell. That unfortunately makes sense. You know,
28:34
so what are you going to do? Are you going to
28:35
try and reason with someone like that? Do you,
28:38
would you reason with Dexter? No. I mean, you
28:43
know, like, but we do, we do Betsy as well. Oh,
28:48
she's not that bad. She's just having a bad day.
28:52
Well, you know what? Have you documented what's
28:56
happened? Have you figured out? Whether you're
28:59
being bullied, have you actually written all
29:00
the things that have happened? Have you built
29:02
a bit of a case to figure out what's happening?
29:05
Have you gone and got some external advice to
29:08
figure out the true nature or extended this scenario?
29:11
Because you do need an objective viewpoint. And
29:14
on the basis of all that homework, do you still
29:17
want to be there? You know, can you really turn
29:20
around Dexter? Probably not. Probably not. And
29:25
you're right. And that's the harsh reality is
29:28
it's not going to change. And a lot of times
29:30
this is happening from women in leadership to
29:32
someone at a lower position. And that's an uphill
29:34
battle that you're going to be. having to prove
29:37
your point and sound like you're whining. If
29:39
you didn't get a promotion, it's because of that.
29:41
You know, it's just a very hard situation to
29:44
get out of professionally. And because again,
29:47
a lot of other bosses aren't going to want to
29:49
take that on or they're going to be like, oh,
29:50
you're being a baby, you're being whatever. Like
29:52
it's just, it's a very hard thing to fight. Yeah.
29:56
And I love that we're keeping it real here because
29:58
I could feed your audience lines and tell you
30:00
all this, give you all this Mary Poppins. But
30:03
the reality is quite different. You know, you
30:05
have to find out what's really going on. You
30:07
have to get external advice. Sometimes though,
30:11
as to what we've been talking about, we can overreact
30:14
to scenarios. That's why I said, are you really
30:16
being bullied? Or are you, you know, is someone
30:22
just being a bit of a nasty pasty in the workplace?
30:25
You know, and be really clear on it. And if it's
30:27
a nasty pasty, then that's a whole other strategy,
30:30
isn't it? And you can look up, I've done quite
30:33
a few TV interviews on toxic relationships at
30:36
work and women and stuff. But that's a different
30:40
strategy, isn't it? Which is not what we're talking
30:43
about tonight. But figure out what it is first.
30:46
That's kind of what I'm saying. And if it is
30:49
true bullying, then the likelihood of you turning
30:51
it around is quite slim. However, if it is simply
30:55
a woman behaving badly, you can probably do something
30:59
about it. So just figure out which one it is.
31:02
Makes sense. So what if this is with friends
31:05
or somebody in our circle? How do we handle that
31:07
if we have somebody that we thought we were friends
31:10
with that has that kind of behavior? Well, you
31:14
know, I'm always a big believer in backing yourself.
31:17
I don't believe in ghosting. I think, you know,
31:20
I have these psychologist friends and I'm a corporate,
31:22
not a therapist, but it's interesting. I've spoken
31:26
to a lot of them and they say, oh, we'll just
31:28
walk away, cut the relationship off and don't
31:30
ever talk to them again. And ghosting is actually
31:32
also a form of bullying. Okay. Because think
31:36
about what you're doing. What are you actually
31:39
doing? It's quite a toxic, toxic way of not handling
31:44
a situation maturely, particularly in someone
31:47
you've been friends with. If you've decided that
31:49
this person fills you with dread and they are
31:52
not behaving in a way that is aligned with your
31:54
values, then have a conversation with them. Let
31:57
them know, hey, Mary, here's how I've been feeling.
32:01
I want to understand what's going on for you
32:03
and have the courageous conversation. And if
32:07
you don't get the answer that suits you, make
32:09
the decision to leave the friendship, but let
32:11
her know. Do the right thing. Say, hey, Mary.
32:14
I don't feel that you and I are aligned anymore.
32:17
I've loved the season of our friendship, but
32:19
it's gone to a place that I'm not comfortable
32:21
with anymore. You know, so I wish you all the
32:24
best, but I won't be able to continue this friendship
32:27
the way it is right now. So, you know, good luck.
32:30
Have the conversation, you know, leave the behavior
32:34
you want to see. But we don't do that either.
32:37
We just walk. And most people, even in organizational
32:42
life, they will exit an organization rather than
32:45
have a tough conversation with someone. But let's
32:49
try something different. Let's be brave where
32:51
we can. Let's try and have those conversations.
32:54
Not with an expectation of an outcome, but see
32:58
where it leads. Be curious, be kind, have the
33:01
conversation. It could turn the friendship around.
33:04
It could not. But at least do the right thing.
33:08
You know, you're responsible for the way you
33:10
behave. And so make sure it's in a way that you
33:12
can live with. I love that so much. So what do
33:16
you hope women take from The Sisterhood Paradox
33:19
when they read this book? So I really would love
33:22
women to understand, you know, how when we support
33:26
one another, when we work together, when we lift
33:29
each other up, we've got actually more chance
33:33
of creating a world where everybody gets a Guernsey.
33:38
And that's not happening right now. So let's
33:40
stop complaining about the things that we can't
33:43
control from a gender equality perspective and
33:45
take a good look in the mirror and control what
33:47
we can, which is ourselves. And that's why I
33:51
think the book is so powerful because it's putting
33:53
the power back into the hands of women saying,
33:57
hey girl, what are you doing? Are you behaving
34:01
in a way that is actually promoting women, setting
34:04
a direction, leading the way with courage and
34:07
confidence and creating workplaces where we all
34:10
thrive? Or are you doing something else? And
34:14
if you're doing something else, I'm not judging,
34:17
make a different decision for tomorrow. Because
34:20
when we come together truly and honestly and
34:23
authentically, we can do anything. And I think
34:26
about... this is a large last known if your audience
34:30
don't aren't aware there's this extraordinary
34:32
group of chimps called the bonobo chimps bonobo
34:36
chimps are a chimp tribe the closest in dn80
34:40
humans 98 .5 percent of their dna with humans
34:44
who are run by a matriarchy so it's run by female
34:52
chimps and instead of fighting they make love
34:56
not war And so I leave you with that concept.
35:00
I think what would happen if we made more love
35:02
and not war with each other? What kind of place
35:06
would the world be if we took a leaf out of the
35:08
book of those gorgeous bonobos? Just a thought.
35:12
Love that. That's so great. Vanessa, thank you
35:14
so much for being here. Where can people connect
35:16
with you? And we'll, of course, connect your
35:19
book on our show notes, but where's the best
35:21
place to reach out to you? Thank you. Look, you
35:24
can reach me via my website, VanessaVirshaw .com,
35:28
but you can also pick up your copy of the book
35:30
from Amazon. It is available in America. It says
35:33
that there's no stock, but there is. There's
35:35
loads of it. Don't know why they do that. And
35:37
in any good retailers or bookstores as well.
35:41
So, but you know, all the information is on my
35:43
website. So just reach out if you have any questions
35:46
or you want to connect. I'm also on Instagram
35:48
as well, although a bit more low key there. Nice.
35:50
Thank you, Vanessa. Thanks so much, Bitsy. There's
35:54
so much in this conversation, but one message
35:56
really stayed with me. We cannot control every
35:58
system, every workplace, or every person, but
36:01
we can take a hard look at how we show up for
36:04
other women. Are we opening doors, sharing opportunities,
36:08
giving credit, including women in the room? Or
36:11
are we competing, excluding, staying silent,
36:14
or participating in behavior that makes it harder
36:16
for another woman to succeed? And I also appreciated
36:20
Vanessa's honesty that supporting women does
36:22
not mean tolerating harmful behavior or pretending
36:25
every woman is automatically a safe person simply
36:28
because she's a woman. Real support requires
36:32
awareness, courage, accountability, and sometimes
36:35
hard conversations. The boys club may be real,
36:38
but women have an opportunity and a responsibility
36:41
to build something stronger of our own. You can
36:44
learn more about Vanessa and find her book, The
36:47
Sisterhood Paradox through the link in the show
36:49
notes. And as always, lead louder, grow stronger,
36:53
and don't do it alone.