Latest / The Masonic Journey / Episode 1: Hiding in Plain Sight — What Is Esoteric Freemasonry?
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome to Down the Rabbit Hole with ⁓ Josh and David. ⁓ David and I have had a lot of conversations and versions of this conversation, probably ⁓ about a hundred times after lodge and in between different ⁓ places we've been. And ⁓ you know, it's we we started talking about one symbol, one degree, one book, and an hour later we're somewhere completely different. And ⁓ I figure why not turn microphones on, right? speaker-1: That's a great idea. Yeah, let's do it. speaker-0: Well, David, tell us a little bit about yourself before our listeners here. speaker-1: So I'm a veteran, US Army. right out of college, went to a military school in New England and from there went off to the Army for eight year term. And upon getting out, I really try to find myself by traveling to a bunch of different states, try and living in all parts of the country, been to all fifty states, all fifty state capitals, did all kinds of things from real estate to geology and ⁓ everything in between. So ⁓ From going from that, I've always been searching for something and the metaphysics have always been interesting to me. It's always something I gravitated towards even as a young person. ⁓ anything had some kind of mystical or supernatural element to it, or even I would say metaphysical is probably a better word. It always captured my interest. It intrigued me and I always wanted to find out more. So I was naturally drawn, not quickly, but over many years, slowly pushed toward Freemasonry, even though I didn't really know much about it and I was really searching for something that I didn't really have all the answers to or I couldn't put into words. So that's where it leaves us. So I've been a seeker all my life and I seek out other seekers who are on the same journey and basically want to better themselves and look for try to get their hands on whatever they can to integrate it into their persona and deep down inside so that they can better themselves and help people around them. If those people are so inclined to also better themselves. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I you know, I was I I was definitely have been drawn to kind of the the meaning behind the meaning, you know? So what's ⁓ what's what's the meaning behind what we say and what we do? And in Freemasonry we have a lot of symbols, man, don't we? What do we actually mean when we're talking about esoteric Freemasonry? So it's ⁓ it seems like a broad subject, kinda like a buzzword everywhere we go. And ⁓ David, ⁓ st tell me about that. What do you think ⁓ what do you think ⁓ esoteric Freemasonry is? speaker-1: So it's the philosophy of inner wisdom acquired By concepts and spiritual ideas that can only be grasped, unfortunately, by a few, either because people don't want to take the time to understand it or they don't feel it's necessary or they don't have time for it, they think. And they're I believe they're really missing out. ⁓ esoteric is that which can be understood by only a few. However, it can be shared and there are seekers along the path that may not even know yet that they're fully seekers and ⁓ We run across these people all the time in Freemasonry. When we find those people who are like minded, we're more inclined, I think, to share that with them because we feel that they would be more receptive. A Freemason above all should be teachable. He should be willing to learn. Basically an open container, and he's receiving n instruction or knowledge. And he can turn that by applying those lessons into wisdom. So that inner wisdom that, ⁓ secret wisdom that's is known only to a few or only able to be comprehended by a few. It doesn't have to be that way. That's unfortunately how it ends out because not everybody is in the same spot or same position along their journey as we might be. And even Freemasons, we're all over the map too. Some people may not be re very receptive to this at all. Some are extremely receptive. And some are somewhere in between. Well, I would say most of them would be in between. speaker-0: Yeah, I think a lot of people just aren't interested because they haven't really been exposed to it. And what they've been exposed to, they're kind of afraid of almost a little bit. But to me, it's kind of goes back to this ⁓ inner knowledge versus outer tea outer teaching versus inner understanding. So is ⁓ so esotericism, I think, is something that's is it deliberately concealed? I ask myself, but because it's not really And sealed, you know. You said that not everybody can grasp it and I agree with that. Not everybody can be I think it's because they're not trying or not they they're they haven't been told to look. speaker-1: Or they haven't had good mentors. speaker-0: Right. Right. speaker-1: The mentors they may have had, if they did have ⁓ probably didn't even know themselves. And that was not satisfactory for me. When I was in Maine and I was coming across all this information, I kind of did my homework ahead of time. So I kind of knew what to expect, but not exactly. And I said, ⁓ once I get in, I mean, guys like Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Mozart, you know, all these guys, right? Harry Truman, we had pr Fourteen presidents who were Freemasons. They must be honest something. They must know something the rest of us don't. What is it? Whoever's a Freemason must have access to this information if they try. But once you're initiated in, you find that that's not always the case with everybody or most people. And therefore, they give perfunctory or superficial answers because they don't know. They never bothered to seek it out themselves, even though they took the obligations and they said, Hey, you know what? I'm receptive to this information, but as soon as they get their mastermason degree, some of them just cut off. And some of that's the fault of the lodges, too. It's not just the individual, because you don't know what you don't know. Unless you have that drive to seek it out even before you knock on the door, how how would you know the right questions to ask to get those kinds of answers? So a very superficial level is what the lectures. The lectures, I think, deliberately hide the information, and you have to go down deep and seek it out for yourself. So just because you've experienced it. And you have the clues doesn't mean you have the knowledge to decipher those clues. You don't have the cipher wheel to figure out how to dissect those symbols and what those words are really telling you. speaker-0: Right, right. You know, I noticed a few times in the ⁓ in the lectures where it talks about something there's y also other meetings and it just kinda leaves it at that. You know, it doesn't really kinda go into it. It just kinda says, Well, this is this is this, this this alludes to this. And the word elude is very important word because it alludes to this, but that means there's more to it than just that. That's one of the possibilities, one of the thoughts, one of the things. So do you So can you practice Freemasonry completely serious without ever approaching it esoterically? speaker-1: I think if you're one of those special and rare kinds of people that can actually practice what we conceive of as the actual fundamental raison d'eff for the working tools and apply it in your everyday life, sort of a practical Freemasonry like what you wrote about. If they are naturally a person that does these things and has picked up on it and it's kind of encouraged them to do so once they've gone through the degrees and they have brothers supporting them, cheering them on, I think that you can. ⁓ I think that's most of the battle right there. But you won't have all of the understanding behind what you're doing. You're kind of you're being a good person, you're doing good things to help other people, you're helping raise other people. But that doesn't mean you necessarily understand the bigger picture of what goes on behind the scenes. But you are doing the correct work just because you're you treat everybody the same, no matter where they come from, whatever their background is, and then you You lead a moral and upright life and you always say what you mean and basically you walk the walk and talk the talk. If you're doing those things, then yes, I think that you can be a totally active Freemason and not have that esoteric understanding and still be a proactive force for good as what is being encouraged. Absolutely. speaker-0: Yeah, and I I think ⁓ a lot of times, you know, when guys are going through those ⁓ just just just doing the things and changing their lives, that is esotericism. That is de applying it to yourself, to your heart, to your soul, to who you are, but ⁓ they just don't have a name for it, you know. And ⁓ we talked about this ⁓ the symbols a lot in Freemasonry. So if we strip the symbols, the allegory, the contemplation, the inner work out of masonry, I mean, what's left at that point? And I think the answer is it's a social club. Because speaker-1: Yeah, what's the point? Really, what makes us different than a thousand other fraternal, social, and charitable organizations out there? It's our ritual. And what is the ritual telling us behind the scenes? Don't just memorize the words to give a recital, like you guys have said before. Make it a performance, make it memorable so that the candidate, even though he doesn't understand a lot of what's going on, he can integrate that into his own person and internalize it in such a way that over time 'cause through constant repetition and hard work for on himself, he can be better than he was every single day the day before, and he can move forward with that. speaker-0: Yeah. So I think it's an important distinction, though, because ⁓ a lot of people think Freemasonry is a system of belief and a system of religion, and it's not. ⁓ so I think we can distinguish here between Freemasonry having an esoteric dimension and claiming that Freemasonry secretly teaches one particular occult system or something. You know, it's it's it doesn't. ⁓ what it does is it opens it ⁓ in my opinion is opens up your mind a little bit to see things that are out there and you and if you step back and you look, you end up seeing a common thread throughout all history. So I know we've talked a lot about that, like a common thread throughout history and how like all mystery schools essentially, you know, a lot of them just have the same moral teachings. Is that is that something that's universal, you think? What what do you think about that? speaker-1: I think that there has to be a death to one's old self, whether that's acted out, ⁓ an allegory and a story, or and there has to be a rebirth or a resurrection. You have to break apart the old self in order for the new one to sprout. And that's the same no matter what time era you're talking about on the planet Earth, or where what continent these ancient mystery schools are occurring on. Whether it's in Greece, Rome, Persia, China, Egypt, you name it. So is that a coincidence? Or is that just ingrains are these like archetypes that are ingrained in the human psyche, even at the collective unconscious level, that they just come out no matter where you are, you could just leave somebody to their own devices. Never knew society, can live in the modern days out in the middle of the jungle or on a desert island or something. I guarantee, I ⁓ pretty much guarantee that this is something that they will come across without even trying very hard. It's almost like that that faith that all men can believe in, that Prisca theologica. And basically that's all religions come from the same source and root ultimately. See a lot of the solar allegory in a lot of them too. And it carries through, whether you people like it or not, into Christianity. I was raised Catholic, so Roman Catholic. We had a lot of ritual and a lot of symbolism speaker-0: Would that say? speaker-1: And I think the Catholics on on that front are onto something that a lot of the other Christian faiths are not. However, their interpretation of it may be considered a little skewed. They like they take it just so far, but they don't go all the way with it. Maybe they don't trust people to have this kind of knowledge. It's considered dangerous. And maybe that's why the ancient mystery schools had it hidden as well. So that if in the wrong hands, a lot of this information, if it got out, it could be misused. 'Cause it's a tool and tools can be used or misused no matter what they are. Or what form they take, I should say. speaker-0: Yeah, and and and none of the concepts are new concepts at all. I mean, if you look, I mean, the the sun, the moon, the stars, the movement of the planets, the movement of the universe, it's always been there, right? So it's been there since the beginning of the time as we know it. And when you look at that, all that stuff's been there and as and people have looked at it from all sides of the earth, then it's no wonder they've come up with some similar conclusions. So I believe in a ⁓ I believe in a physical world, but I and I believe in a spiritual world. Like to believe, and it's all kind of it, it's together. It's one thing. You know, there's no there's no separation between the physical and the spiritual. It's all spiritual. It's everything has to do with but when we deny that spiritual side, the spiritual dimension, the spiritual world that's that's here, that's when we lose kind of that. connection we have with all human beings. So but all this stuff's been there from the beginning of time. So I kinda think of it a lot as ⁓ two as different people looking at it from different perspectives, coming to similar conclusions, but not always the same conclusion. speaker-1: Correct, not always the same. No, because it's it's tainted by culture and your the time era that you live in, ⁓ where you're at essentially physically. but other than that, if you go down to the basics and you strip all that away, you're gonna find a lot more commonality than you are otherwise. And you're right, these things are not. They we we we always want to think of things in a dichotomy that they're always opposites fighting with each other. Well, these opposites were separated from a single source, ultimately, if you trace it back far enough. So It's really the same thing. There's just two sides of the same coin. Why do they always have to fight each other? Why are they not just multilayered aspects of the same thing? You're just looking at it from a different angle than somebody else. But when you bring ⁓ all together, you have the whole. And that's what none of us have a hundred percent access to 'cause we can't. Not until we pass away or we However you want to term it, we have maybe we have to come back and learn it a again and get it right the next time if we don't get it right this time. There's a lot of theories on that too that ⁓ are alluded to, although it's not specifically stated. ⁓ just what works for you, what will get you to the top faster, and what do you find at the top you and deity are one. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. True. And so and that and talk it's talked about in the Bible, it's talked about in the Quran, it's talked about in well the Torah is the Old Testament and ⁓ the the other the other writing, spiritual writings that are out there, they all talk about a similar thing that that coming into oneness with God, coming into oneness with the spiritual and and and finding that peace inside yourself and that peace that that that you can experience. you know, I think it's it's important though for us to pause for a second and kind of ⁓ define a few terms here. Because ⁓ people think esoteric means a cult. What is the definition of a cult? An occult is anything outside of dogma. Would you agree with that or with that that that definition or not? speaker-1: It can develop its own dogma itself as an antithesis to whatever somebody uses it as a rebelling tool against. speaker-0: Well that's true. Yeah. I think they use that term that way, but I don't think that was the original meaning of it. speaker-1: No, just means hidden in Latin. Occultus that which is hidden. And not everything that's hidden is bad. ⁓ a lot of things that are hidden are hiding in plain sight. But we're too blind to see it a lot of the time. speaker-0: Yeah. N not everything that's hidden is meant to be hidden. It's it's there. It's knowledge. It's open. There's a difference between getting your own system and be that you have found things that are you are for and developing a system of everything you're against. You know, I think a lot of times people shift, you know, they start off really, you know, hey, this is what we're for, this is what we want to live for, but then they kind of really start defining themselves by what they're not. ⁓ we're not this way, we're not that way. Well, we don't believe in this part. Well, this little section, we we believe this is different and we believe everything who doesn't believe that is wrong. But when you start saying somebody else is wrong or some other viewpoint is wrong, that's when I think you kind of delve right into dogmatism. You get start telling this is my way, my way's the right way. But how dare we be so arrogant with all the wealth of knowledge that's in the universe? How could we be so arrogant to say that, you know, someone else or some other viewpoint is wrong? speaker-1: Yeah, why can't it mean both things? Like the symbols. So if I see the circumpunct and it means one thing to me or multiple levels of meaning to me, and then another brother sees it and it means something different to him that's not included in that list that I came up with. Uh-huh. How do I know that it's not that also? It may very well be. If that speaks to him in that way, then I it should be included in that that total numeration of everything. As it says in Shakespeare's Hamlet as there's more to heaven and earth than is dreamt of in our philosophy. So I think we should start believing that more and applying it. We wouldn't be s such jerks to people who don't think exactly how we do, ⁓ because a lot of stuff cannot be taken literally. It's meant, not to say it's any less true, but it's an allegory. What does it do to speak to you on an inner level? You know, people who take things literally, and I used to do this too. This is what children do because they don't have another frame of reference. Once you start thinking on a better, higher, stronger level, which adults should do. You don't like think everything's literal anymore. You see the gray. Not everything is always black and white. And once you at ascend to that level inside, you start seeing things in a different way. You can accept other viewpoints and you say, ⁓ I wish I thought of that. That brother's probably right. Why didn't I think of that? Now I've taken what he said, which is great, and I've integrated it into my own repertoire. So I become even better than myself the day before. speaker-0: Does it take to ascend to that next level in your opinion? Because I have my feelings on that, but I want to hear your opinion real quick. What does it take to ascend? speaker-1: So ascending is a constant upward circular battle with yourself. You have a shadow work that we all must do. And usually when we see somebody we don't like instinctively, especially if they're the same sex as us, if we see another male who's not we don't we so she just knows to g I don't like that guy. Basically what that's telling us, and we're projecting, we all do it, some more than others, some we catch ourselves because we know better. That's a reflection of myself that I choose not to face. And I recognize it in that other person. So I don't like him, but what I really don't like is that part of myself that I'm seeing in what that other person's doing. So once you figure that out and do that shadow work, you basically dissect the psyche with through meditation, study, can't all be intellectual. It has to be spiritual, meditative as well, or emotional also. It has to be a balance. It can't be just intellectualization. And I that's my fault I'm working on. I it tend to over intellectualize things. Just so I can make sense out of it, I dissect it and then put it back together as a synthesis. But with that, that constant battle, that dark night of the soul, the negred of spiritual alchemy, you're it's that dissection. Some people call it the midlife crisis. Doesn't happen just one time. If we want to really be honest and realistic with each other, it happens over and over and over again. So you're constantly going through that that circular staircase. Yeah. And then you get to the point where, speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Now it's 10 years later. Now I have to reassess again. Breaks it down, builds it back up. You ascend even more. Maybe five to ten years another later, it breaks down. Have to put it back together again. So that's how you're constantly growing. You have to go through these phases. And it's not just one and done. We gotta do it constantly, over and over and over again. And understand that that dissociation, that order disorder paradox, if you will. And I have the book on that too. I met the author in Maine and he he was a Jungian depth psychology. And I read a lot of that stuff and he's talking about the alchemy. And I'm like, this is Freemasonry. Well, he's not a Freemason. He probably didn't know anything about Freemasonry, but it spoke to me as such because I understood that from the degrees and what the the esoteric meaning of them is. And so I understand that this process is not is something that once you complete something, you reach that level, now you have to. start back up again so you can work yourself up to the higher level for the next goal or the next phase. It's not one and done. It's like, ⁓ I already had my midlife crisis when I was thirty five or forty or whatever. Nope. It happens and it's okay. It's part of the process. And as long as you're resilient, each time you go through it, you become more resilient and you can keep building. speaker-0: And we're ascending through layers of ourself and our own self-doubt and trying to to break away. I I'd like to think of it as you're you're chipping away in Freemasonry, it talks about removing all the vices and superfluities of life there by fitting our minds as a living stone, that ⁓ our mind and conscious is a living stone fit for the builder's use. So ⁓ when you got when you're doing that, you're you're you're taking away all these things that are kind of keeping you away and and and really chipping away. the ⁓ you know at the at the intellect that they the things that are holding you back. ⁓ you know, I've heard masonry described as, you know, ⁓ as mysticism, as hermeticism, as alchemy, as n as Kabbalah, as Gnosticism, and but I always wonder, you know, are are these things part of Masonry, or are they just lenses through which some Masons have interpreted Freemasonry? Because if we all take our lenses, you know, I know Christians who look at Freemasonry and the lessons of Freemasons say, hey, this is this is Christian. Hey, you're Jewish people, this is this is Jewish. This is cababalist. This is you know, hey, if I look at this, this is this is pagan. You know, this is what we think in the pa but wouldn't that just go right back to that idea where there's this truth? The truth is is is out the truth is out there. There we ⁓ Files music should be ⁓ the X Files we playing right now. Slightly different there. So but yeah, you kind of feel like S should be playing right now because it the truth is out there. And if the truth is out there, are we the arbiters of truth? Or has is if truth is out there and truth is open to every single human being by the very nature that they are, they have a divine spark within each and every human being, then Can't we all find it different ways? And when we do, when we're looking at these this teaching, this and Manley P. Hall calls it the secret teaching of all the ages, it kind of really does we all believe the same thing in the end. It just all comes from a different angle and different sources. But I know that's can be a little controversial sometimes though. speaker-1: Agreed, unfortunately. But if we're nothing's gonna change unless we work on ourselves first. I wish more people felt like that. You want to change the world? Don't try to protest and riot and all this stuff. Work on yourself. Because the boogeyman is not out there. You're just projecting. The boogeyman is in here for all of us until we rectify those opposites. speaker-0: Right, right. And I talk about that in the my book, The Path of Light. ⁓ it's it's the inner alchemy of the soul. Yeah. When they talk about alchemy, what people don't realize is these these people were learning about themselves. Yeah, they were trying to have turned lead into gold and things like that. But ⁓ they were, you know, but they were really what they found is this is these are all teachings and these are all different ways to be looking as an each geologist, ⁓ you know, from by trade. You know, there's there's so much symbolism in geology and alchemy That ⁓ which geology is alchemy, really. And speaker-1: And it's natural alchemy that the earth does itself automatically. Yes. And those alchemic alchemical elements, they are showing up esoterically in our degrees. And it comes in, especially in the obligations. When we talk about the penal signs and the penalties, they are referring to specific alchemical processes related to specific elements, whether the water, air, or fire. And you have to ascend and go through all of those. And I believe this was alluded to, there's that word again, in Mozart's magic flute in his opera. For those of you who know Mozart, Brother Mozart, ⁓ Amadeus, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, he put that in his opera. It was specifically a Masonic opera, essentially. And those who are in there know who've done the work and have studied and integrated some of these lessons would be like, ⁓ yeah, I I totally get it. This isn't weird. I this is normal. Why doesn't anybody why doesn't everybody get those? speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ you know, I I kinda ask myself a lot of times, you know, how far is too far though? You know, am I just seeing how do we know when we discover something in a simple or we're just putting something there ourselves? speaker-1: So if our studies are encouraging us to actually take real living practical application of the work and the words with the ri the symbolism of the ritual, we're living it, then I don't think it's too far. If we just take it to the natural extreme and we're the same old person we were the day before, we let's say we have some bad habits, we're still doing those habits. I don't know what it is. It could be anything. And I don't wanna alienate some brothers by mentioning them. on the air. However, of course, if we do work on ourselves and we apply them practically, I don't think it's taken it too far because that's what it's designed for. We're not supposed to be the same as we were the day before. But if all we do is study, study, study, study, study and we net we're the same person we were the day before or the year before or five years before, I would say that's when you're taking it too far. Time to scale back on the studying a little bit. And start redirecting that energy and sublimating it to more productive measures for yourself and the people around you. speaker-0: Yeah, because knowledge without application is worthless. There's no you know, there's no point. You what what are you learning it for if you're not gonna use it to change your life? And ⁓ that's like it reminds me of some somebody I know who's gone back to college multiple times and learned a whole bunch more stuff, you know, and they've got so much knowledge, but they don't apply any of it. They don't they don't do anything. It's like they're habitual learners, which ⁓ and and that's okay, but W what does it matter if you're not gonna use it to further, you know, better your life, better your career? It's just wasting in my opinion. speaker-1: Yeah, there's no wisdom acquired because you're not applying what you learned or yeah, you're not applying that knowledge to productive measures for yourself. speaker-0: No, go ahead. speaker-1: I'm sorry, go ahead. ⁓ well, there's a reason why we wear the apron and why it specifically covers a certain part of the body. That those base desires need to be lifted. And if they get dissipated all the time in non-productive measures, all that energy we have is not being raised up the spinal column, but is being wasted. And instead of being sublimated and used for more productive measures, not just for yourself and your own betterment, but to help. your community and the people around you as well. And it doesn't have to be knowledge necessarily all the time or wisdom. It could be there you're physically helping the other people. You're visiting brothers who are elderly or sick. You're helping mentor young brothers or brothers who are rather, I should say, newer in the craft. Because they're not all young guys. Some of them are coming in at their in their forties and fifties and they're looking for something. And there is no real male initiation in this country, unfortunately. It has gone aside. If it does exist, I would argue that if the Native Americans are the ones best lined up to do it. In sweat lodges or what have you, the older men of the community, d not necessarily the fathers, but the older men of the community are training that young man so he can basically leave the mother's world, which he lived in as a child, and move forward into the man's world. And I'm sorry, but driving a car and smoking your first cigarette and getting your fat first tattoo. And how many girls can you go out with? These are not true initiations in life. ⁓ even joining the military, yes, can be a form of initiation, but it's geared toward war, right? speaker-0: Right. ⁓ speaker-1: Or the inner temple building. So there is no real initiation. So these men are hungry. They're searching for something. They they have me never been learned they have maybe never learned anything remotely from any other older male figure in their entire life, whether it's their fathers, family members, people they work with, mentors at you know, church or work. It's missing. So there's this void and they're looking for something to replace that. And they don't aren't just satisfied with superficial explanations. Or guys who say, ⁓ that's just the way we've done it, or it's just there. I don't know why that symbol's there, but you know, w we like it. We don't know what it means. Those answers were not good enough for me in Maine. That's why I had to seek out probably sixty to a hundred different books in various libraries, including our Grand Launch library up there. And that's how my presentations for the esoteric means of all the degrees came about, because I was not satisfied with the answers I was being given. I'm like, I just came in. How do I Have access to this information and I'm asking guys who've been in for 20 years and they don't they have no clue what I'm talking about. I didn't make it up. Really smart Masons from the 1800s, early 1900s. Even now, they're writing books and they've shared their knowledge. It's there for the taking, but nobody's checking out these books, even in our own Grand Lodge libraries, most of the time, unless they're doing a research paper, and Lodge Research is excellent in all the states, I think. speaker-0: So speaker-1: It's it's there for the taking, but nobody's ⁓ not I shouldn't say nobody, but most people aren't willing to seek it out. They say, ⁓ I don't have the time or I don't I say I see if you're gonna do masonry, do masonry. Otherwise, why are you here? There's plenty of other social clubs. You can just you don't have to worry about this stuff at all. speaker-0: Yeah. And it isn't seeking the beginning of knowledge. I mean, you a beginning of understanding, the beginning of wisdom, the starting to look. And ⁓ I remember when I started to look. ⁓ you know, I was ⁓ I started to look for meaning and purpose and things. and it was started back when I was a kid, just going to church and like it's gotta be more than this in what they're saying, you know. And I I feel like there's more, you know, I have a strong pull inside of me to learn more. And then I was I was the kid in Kid in Sunday school nobody wanted to have in Sunday school with speaker-1: I would have hung out with you, brother Josh. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And the teacher the teachers are that's probably true. That's probably true. speaker-1: What it kicked us both out and expelled us. Questions are asking, nobody should be asking it. I don't have answers for these. I say go go seek ⁓ out yourself then. speaker-0: Go go go find the answers and come back and tell me. That's always in my that's always been my answer to people like, Well ⁓ if they ask b I don't know is a perfectly acceptable answer. And it's okay. speaker-1: That you don't know. And you'll hey, I'll try to find out and get back with you. speaker-0: Yeah, maybe let's work together and find this out together. You know, you tell you tell me what you find and I'll tell you what I found. ⁓ one of my favorite ⁓ is a couple of things. I I saw a trestle board. There was some some ⁓ some stuff on a trestle board in our lodge. That's that's like a picture a poster. It was a poster in the lodge and they had a couple of symbols on it s on on s somewhere I didn't recognize. I'm like, Well, what does that mean? There were some pretty knowledgeable Masons in the hallway with me when I pointed out. So what does that mean? I'm just curious. I just noticed those. It's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Man, it took me about a I went down a yeah, well, yeah. But I went down a I went down a rabbit hole, you know, for that. That sent me down a rabbit hole understanding a little bit more about Masonry. And another another time in Lodge, we're talking about the position of the body at the altar, and that sent me down a a rabbit hole as well. Just let's search. Nobody knew. I'm like, okay, well, let's find out. It's knowledge. It's out there. And I found information about it, but in unlikely sources, but and was able to write a paper on it. But you know, that's the thing. You know, people don't ⁓ you know, we don't think it sometimes there are things that we just do so much that we don't stop to think about it. So blowing down and thinking about it is super important. One of one of the things that I was told when I first became a Freemason, when I first got raised to a master mason. brother named Lane Ruckle, who passed away ⁓ not long after he told me that. ⁓ he was one of one of my first mentors. He just took time to talk to me and just ⁓ and and man, it was it was okay. He's he's a guy who used to say, I don't know, but let's find out together, you know? And ⁓ well well, he told me one thing. He said, now hey, you've been raised to master Mason. Now you gotta take the rest of your life to figure out what that means. And ⁓ okay, well you can become a master mason pretty quick, you know, just three degrees, three, four, five months, you're done. And then you but then you got the rest of your life. I learn things new every day. speaker-1: Agreed. Yeah, I I don't I think that there's been a disconnect between the older members of even Masonic Lodges, not just in society, and the younger guys or the newer masons coming in. And that mentorship has been sorely lacking for years prior, but I think it's making a renaissance coming back now. ⁓ especially with Masonic education, which was never done back in the day, but now ⁓ you know well, I should say for decades, but now it's coming making a resurgence, which is wonderful. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I'd be interested to sit in one of those old lodges from the in the Renaissance era, yeah era, you know, and just kind of see what those guys would talk about. 'Cause you know, ⁓ although, you know, I'd probably be a little disappointed in some things, you know, because I'm sure they're dudes just like we're dudes and they're just gonna, you know, doke around a lot. But man, some of the thinking and some of the writing they did was just phenomenal. ⁓ and ⁓ so let me let me ask you this and it it's probably good for the end of the episode, but I'm gonna ask it now. If you could build a basic esoteric Masonic library, what books have to be in it? speaker-1: I would say anything by Manley P. Hall, Albert Pike, Wilmshurst, George Steinmetz. And some ⁓ I would s there are some ones by some younger brothers now that are being published that I would definitely add as well. ⁓ I even think some of the older books ⁓ Timothy Hogan wrote about the alchemical keys to Masonic ritual and so forth and th the thirty two paths of wisdom and the tree of life and how it relates from k Kabbalah or Kabbalah to the ⁓ Masonic degrees is very enlightening, especially when you take and integrate the Hebrew alphabet. into different paths of wisdom on the tree of life, which is ⁓ schematic of the emanations of the divine ⁓ to the physical in Jewish mysticism. And for that, I would Sefer Yetzerah comes out of that. The Zohar, I would include all of that. So you mentioned a lot of influences, the Hermetic books, ⁓ the Kabalion was is excellent and very simple to understand, seven principles, universal principles that apply to just a speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Well, to everything, essentially. ⁓ I would include that one. So anything that has to do with Hermeticism, spiritual alchemy, and the Kabbalah and Gnosticism, I would definitely start in those places and add those definitely to it. speaker-0: Right, right. Yeah, we've got kind of a ⁓ like a like a secret ⁓ cipher there for Kabbalah 'cause we have a brother Aaron Jones. Yes. Which who we'll have to get on the sh on this ⁓ on this as well one time one point here. But ⁓ Aaron talks Aaron's a ⁓ he's a Kabbalist. He teaches Kabbalah. ⁓ so it's ⁓ very cool. We're actually taking done a couple of sessions. We need to do a few more I for sure soon. But ⁓ now that he's back from the trip. But ⁓ Yeah. So let's take ⁓ let's let's go down let's take a symbol, for instance. Let's kind of start breaking down a symbol here. Okay. ⁓ so let's take well let's take the first symbol you're really talk that the tree that's talked about in the in the lodge. Let's take the symbol of the point in a circle. The circumpunct. speaker-1: I was thinking the same thing. That's a great one to start off with. speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. It's a great one to start off with because it's the very first thing they talk about in the lecture. This is the symbol, boom. Yes. All right. So what what's what is it about the circumpunk that ⁓ that would be particularly good here? So I think where does your mind go? speaker-1: I think a I bel I go toward mathematics and a circle encompasses the in the whole, we'll say the universe and what can be large enough to encompass the universe, the grand architect himself. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And what's at the center of that? Could it be us or are we the circle and that divine spark is the point within us, within our sphere of influence and our circle. And then I look at Masonic stellar theology or astrology or astronomy. And basically what it is is the symbol in astronomy for the sun. Now, what are my what are the solar references we have now tied in through all three degrees of Blue Lodge or Ancient Craft Freemasonry and into the York Rite and Scottish Rite degrees as well, where you have solar allusions or allegory tied in with that? Even the way the candidate moves around the lodge. And even in the location on some brothers' aprons, the officers of the lodge, some of have a son. Some past masters have it. Some the deacons have one the senior deacon has it in his rod. This is not a coincidence. The three burning tapers. One of them represents the sun. Well why is that? I would have thrown all those ideas in. And then now you have The alchemical symbol for gold. So if the candidate is moving about the lodge as the sun would apparently travel through the celestial hemisphere in the sky, and he's become that, what is he working towards? Turning his base lead, base matter, lower passions down below and sublimating it into true light, Masonic light, which is the sun. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: He's becoming that as he moves through those degrees. That is not a coincidence. This is not made up. There's too many correspondences and synchronicities. You could never convince me in a hundred million years. I try to keep an open mind nowadays. I didn't always. But I'm almost fifty, so I'm gonna try to go into the next fifty. Where can you not see that there is some connection? And this keeps coming up and showing up over and over and over. It keeps hitting you over the head. It's hiding in plain sight until you find like, ⁓ my gosh, one day you I got it. I see it now. How did I miss it all these years? speaker-0: It was right there. It was right there in front of us. speaker-1: Literally the two extremes. You have the balance between the the sun and the moon. Okay. One creates light, one reflects the other's light. So you have to meet in the middle. Equilibrium. Balance. The column of wisdom. And the worshipful master is supposed to in the east is supposed to represent that. And what happens in the east? There we have the sun again. We're light. The sun rises on the equinoxes, right? The vernal equinox on March twentieth or twenty-first, depending on where you are. And also ⁓ September twenty third, which is coming up. The autumnal equinox always rises directly in the east, in the northern hemisphere. I have to research. I'm not so sure about southern. I wanted to focus we focus more on the northern even King Solomon's Temple is technically in the northern hemisphere. So we always focus on that. Now I hear other lodges down south of the equator. They still emulate what we do. Even for them, it would be the opposite. Our summer's their winter where the candidate stands in the lodge. He's in the northeast corner. Well what happens on the summer solstice? speaker-0: Right, right. There's free. speaker-1: The sun rises in the northeast, not due east. So I mean like it's almost a no brainer at this point, but we've been through this and we've talked with other like minded brethren and they get it. There's like, ⁓ I see it now. Now I take this, how do I apply it to my life so that I can move and act in a certain way, and then I can turn that lead into gold as well. And I can raise those base passions. Some call it kundalini, some call it up rising up through the chakras and yep ⁓ the crown of light. eventually opens, we all hope to get there and we just have to keep working on ourselves and going through that process over and over and over again until we get there. But it's not a straight journey, straight shot. You're not like illumined, ⁓ I got it I understand everything now in a second. Doesn't work like that. Not for ninety nine point nine nine percent of people on this planet, I would s I should say. speaker-0: Yeah. And I think that's why mis Masonry teaches in it teaches through ritual instead of just a book. You actually it's something you walk through and you experience it. ⁓ that's that's ⁓ makes it very important because it makes it personal. And ⁓ you know, when you're ⁓ i if it doesn't actually change you, it it's what's what is the point, you know? 'Cause you can start with something like the circumpunk like you just did here and and and you go You get geometry, you know, the traditional Masonic explanations, geometry, the center, their circumference. From the center to the circumference, ⁓ from heaven to earth, you know, self, boundaries, you know. You got ⁓ d the divine center and you've got whatever organically emerges from that, it kinda leaves it open for you. And so when you look at that symbol, and there's so many other symbols, ⁓ in fact this year at our lodge we're gonna be doing ⁓ talking about the symbols of Freemasonry and have different people ⁓ from our lodger and officer line to come talk about a specific symbol that means the most to them. And that's, you know, that's important because, you know, we why why like I I always I asked a question in one of my books, well, why do we why does Masonry speak in symbols? And the answer is ⁓ the same reason Jesus spoke in parables. So that seeing they may see and not understand. Spoken them in par when when they figure it out They're enlightened they know it. And ⁓ so symbols, you know, you're seeing it and it means something different to you as you move through life. I know that as I've moved through my Masonic career and as I move through life, I look back at certain symbols and it does mean something different to me. It means something, and it because at that stage of my life, it I I might need something different from Freemasonry. I might need something different from that symbol. I might be looking for something, and I see that and like, you know what? I never saw it. Now I get I get this part of it. ⁓ but ⁓ it's there's some crazy ⁓ stuff out there that you know you see but in the end it's all coming to search for the same knowledge. ⁓ I know there's one guy on Facebook. It's ⁓ it's obviously AI generated, but you know, they they constantly gets getting posted about all these things, numbers and everything else, numerology, and he's like saying, I I have the explanation of all the symbols information. He starts talking about this is this and this is that and this is that and this is that. And the whole time thinking, like, dude, you are totally missing the whole point. speaker-1: Yeah, if he hasn't jump if he hasn't experienced it personally. Do you really know everything? Because you're gonna learn stuff after you experience it that you never even thought of yet. speaker-0: Yeah. No. Walking through it walking through it is very different than looking at it from the outside. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah, because you have to experience it as well. Internalize it. It's not just knowledge that's out there that I've I've read and I've actually lived it. speaker-0: That's what Yeah. And it teaches, you know, i everything everything teaches in life. You know, there's always there's always a lesson to learn in everything. And that's the biggest thing that I've learned out of Freemasonry is there's always a lesson in everything. So let's go back to that the Mason here. And I think this is the question that matters the most. What is this all supposed to actually do to us? Because if esoteric Freemasonry is only collecting increasing increasingly obscure information, what's the point? Like you said And ⁓ i in a lot of my work I I talk about these three things, you know, awaken, refine and become, you know. And but I think even the becoming is is a remembering of who we actually are and should be should have been the whole time. What do you that's a spot I've talked to a whole lot there, but speaker-1: I have an easy solution for that. I don't know if it's gonna work for everybody, but you you pick your symbols, you focus on your favorite ones. There's a reason why they're your favorite. You may not understand it entirely. Yeah. Contemplate them to the nth degree in your mind and in your heart because you will find answers there. And then once you've realize what you have to do and what it's telling you to do, you go out and act it out in a positive way to assist. Not just your own growth, but you help others. Absolutely. That's as simple as I can make it. Your st your growth is not stunted by yourself or ourselves. We have moved past that. And it's taken years to get to that point, but eventually it gets to our thick skulls. ⁓ okay, I get it now. This is what I gotta do. It's not all about me anymore. speaker-0: Yeah. Yep, yep. That's that's true, a hundred percent. So all right, well close to here. We probably should end this up or wrap this up pretty quick here. So let me just go ahead and and and talk a little bit. So ⁓ No, I kinda say that I don't think we've answered the question completely because I don't think the answer what is esoteric Freemasonry really has a good answer. speaker-1: Words can only take you so far and that's why symbols pick you up and carry you the rest of the way. A lot of the secrecy we have is because we can't speak about it. Why? 'Cause how can you put such a profound experience, especially even with the divine or even something in your daily life, that you just cannot put into words. It does not do it justice. The words in your head do not live up to the words that are coming out of your mouth. And so it's I use this well worn example, like your child, the first your first child or your any of your children. You in the hospital when they were born, that feeling you had when you saw them for the first time when they were born, can you put that into words? Can you limit it as such? That's a wonderfully profound experience. And yet it's not like communion with the divine necessarily. So can you imagine how hard that would be? Yeah. We can't even put something like a baby being born in a hospital into words. speaker-0: ⁓ How do we put God into words? speaker-1: We don't you're limit you would limit it that spirit. speaker-0: No matter what you put what box you try to fit God into and or the creator or the the great architect of the universe in, whatever whatever you put box you try to put ⁓ in, it is just can't contain ⁓ That's why the word that's why they invented the word holy. speaker-1: Yes. That's why they advanced the word holy, yeah. Or means other, essentially. speaker-0: Yeah. It means I don't understand this. This is too big for me to comprehend, you know. And it seems like every time God showed up this, you know, i i in in in the in the old testament and people do people in visions, they all just drop to their knees. That was like their natural position. This is so much bigger than I ever thought it could possibly be. This is so much and and and and their life changed as a result of it. And ⁓ You know, I I know every religion teaches about different people who've had visions and they've had this connection and then we try to we try to emulate those people to try to get that same connection they have and we fail. But we fail because well, that wasn't our connection, was their connection. All right. Well, we got a lot of rabbit holes we can go down to. So so let's just let's start that's this. So after an hour of talking about what Freemasonry is, ⁓ You know, we managed to define as clearly as we're able to, but we opened about fifteen more doors probably. So at least the answer the answer is I guess that's another rabbit hole to go down. So speaker-1: What's your plan for the the next episode? Episode two. What speaker-0: That's a great question. ⁓ next episode, I want to talk a little bit more about symbols. Just symbols. Just talk about symbols, what they are, what we're gonna learn from them, ⁓ what we can learn from them, and and really how to interpret them properly. Cause I think a lot of people just say, Yeah, I know the two I know the symbols, but I never seen it that way. Well, how how do you interpret that symbol? ⁓ and that's an important question to have. And I think a lot of it is what you said there. Con find that one symbol and contemplate it. Mm-hmm. Meditate on it. Think about that symbol. Bring it up in your mind when you're set there quietly on your own. When you're sitting by a stream, just kind of think about that symbol. And what does it bring? What images does it bring up to your mind? What is it? But ⁓ we'll talk about symbols next time. How's that sound? speaker-1: That sounds great. And a point where we have to stop speculating and start applying and basically interpret it from the data that we've received, which is our studies, how can we integrate it and internalize it so we can apply it? speaker-0: Absolutely. All right. Well, until next time, you have gone down the rabbit hole a little bit here with Josh and Dave. We appreciate you joining us and ⁓ in our little conversation here. If you have questions or if you have thoughts, ⁓ go ahead and put those down in the comments sections below, whatever ⁓ thing you're talking about. Or you can also email us at ⁓ the Masonic Journey at gmail.com. And ⁓ David and I'll be glad to talk ⁓ to to contemplate that a little bit, talk with you about it. So ⁓ if you're interested in becoming a Freemason, then check out your local lodge. ⁓ you know, if you need help finding one, let us know. We'll help you find one. Until so until next time, thank you so much. And David, thank you so much for joining me again today and appreciate it so much. And we'll ⁓ we'll continue this conversation. Well, we'll jump into a different rabbit hole next time. All right. Well, thanks. Thanks. speaker-1: Thank you. You're welcome.