Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / "Dangerous" Racehorse to Healing Partner: Liberty, Scent Work & the Sacred | Dr. Amanda Minervini of EGLHE, Colorado Springs | EAW 63

Transcript

"Dangerous" Racehorse to Healing Partner: Liberty, Scent Work & the Sacred | Dr. Amanda Minervini of EGLHE, Colorado Springs | EAW 63 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
0:02
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
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It really helps us get this work done.
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As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
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com.
0:41
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
0:44
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
0:46
I have Amanda, Dr.
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Amanda Minervini here who does many things.
0:53
But she runs, when she's not being a professor at Colorado College, she runs
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something called EAGLE out of Colorado, which I'm gonna let her talk to us
1:04
about, because it's a very interesting mix of, I'd say, the various types
1:10
of best practice for equine-assisted emotional support and equine welfare.
1:20
And I've known Amanda, gosh, since I first talked, was it 2022, at Warwick
1:29
Schiller's Journey On Summit in Texas, and she was there and we chatted.
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And I later went out and saw her work in Colorado, and I've been sort of
1:39
following it for the last few years and thinking, "Oh, this is gonna, this is
1:44
gonna develop into something interesting."
1:46
And then I sort of looked at it this year and realized it had really
1:52
developed into something interesting.
1:54
Because there's all sorts of elements in there like liberty work and
1:59
equine communication, but not in the woo-woo way, and classical work
2:06
and working with vulnerable human populations that just is all coming
2:11
together in a really interesting way here in Colorado Springs, and I
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think Amanda should tell us about it.
2:19
So Amanda, thanks for coming on the show.
2:22
Amanda Minervini: Hi, Rupert.
2:23
Thank you so much for having me.
2:25
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's-
2:26
Amanda Minervini: It's such a pleasure to be exchanging this conversation
2:29
with you and to be here today.
2:31
Yes, EAGLE is Equine Guided Learning And Healing Experience, which I started
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putting together a few years ago now.
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I started thinking about it during the pandemic actually, given the sheer
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mental health crisis that was, I mean, getting even worse with the pandemic.
2:49
Not that before there wasn't.
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And so I had known your work since 2009.
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It was sent to me by a friend, Jane Richardson.
3:00
And so I started thinking about the healing power of horses and all these
3:06
ideas that, you know, horses have a lot to teach us sapien sapiens.
3:10
And then, you know, slowly I also continued my academic career.
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I finished graduate school, got a job, got another job where I stayed.
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And once I was more stable I got a horse, was the first thing I did.
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So I started looking at different approaches and Warwick Schiller's
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consent-based attuned horse-machine approach was one that gave me
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really a lot of ideas and also a lot of materials to work from.
3:40
And then basically through the guidance offered by my off-the-track thoroughbred,
3:45
Jimmy we, Jimmy and I, actually really put together this method and now
3:49
it's evolving to include more horses and more different kinds of people.
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Whereas at the beginning, I intended it primarily for students here at the
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college, but it seems like there is so much need for activities of this kind
4:04
that, you know, it's open to everybody.
4:08
And then the other aspect that I saw that you also talk about is the well-being
4:13
of the horse, a horse who's happy to move that feels good in their bodies,
4:18
and horses that also there can be something fun and rewarding for them as
4:23
well in the relationship with humans.
4:25
So I'm trying to show humans that they don't have to be in charge
4:28
with horses, that it can be a shared enterprise, enterprise, let's say.
4:33
And that horses actually are happy to give their input and share their opinions
4:38
and ideas when they're allowed to.
4:42
Rupert Isaacson: I saw recently a video that you sent me of you
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with some clients in the woods the pinewoods of the foothills of the
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Rockies, and your ex-racehorse, Jimmy, at liberty among them.
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You got â¦ Everyone was walking through the forest, and he was following
5:01
free, and playing and bringing that play to these clients who were there.
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And I thought, "What a breath of fresh air," because I'm used to seeing horses
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at liberty in the equine-assisted thing when it's, say, equine-assisted
5:21
psychotherapy, where let's say it's a very controlled situation.
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Not controlled in that the horses have halters on, but controlled in that
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it's usually taking place, you know, in an arena, and the horses usually are
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not expressing a whole lot of energy.
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And the, nor the people, and there isn't really an element of play.
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It's quite serious.
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It's psychotherapy.
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It's examination.
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It's this, it's that.
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And I'm a great believer in horses playing.
5:52
You know, in our programs we have this thing called crazy time, which
5:57
Amanda Minervini: we- Anarchy phase
5:58
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: anarchy phase, et cetera, where we know that horses, they're so
6:01
playful, you know, if we want them to be, quote-unquote, good and our colleagues,
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it's just very fair and a very practically
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efficacious thing to let them express their playful energy.
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And then of course we realized, oh, we could do this with clients, you know?
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And we, so we do this with children and we work out horsemanship ideas,
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and we measure the speeds and the distances that the horses go,
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and we free jump them and da, da.
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And for a long time it was like, well, I don't see anyone else
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really doing this kind of thing.
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And then you sent me that thing, and what I loved about it was
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here's an ex- ex- racehorse, a Thoroughbred Again, the sort of breed
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that many people rather stigmatize within the equine-assisted world.
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And here he is at liberty- Oh, mm-hmm
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jumping around and in the woods with these people who are jumping
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around with him, and everyone is safe, and everyone is happy.
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And I could just see the sheer joy in the horses and the humans, and I was
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thinking, "Yeah, if I was a student at Colorado College where Amanda's teaching,
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and I was having, you know, anxiety issues or whatever, and I came out
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for a day doing that, I would probably go home feeling an awful lot better.
7:15
Yeah, I probably would."
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And I was thinking, "Oh, we should get her on the show."
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So talk to me about that day, and talk to me about what the evolution has
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been to kind of bring it to that point, 'cause it's an easy thing for me to
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describe, but you and I both know that it's a very difficult thing to pull
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that off with any degree of safety.
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So talk to me about that.
7:37
Yeah.
7:37
Yeah.
7:38
Amanda Minervini: Oh, it's, â¦ Where do I start?
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And please stop me if I go for too long.
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But Jimmy has a bit of a complicated history because, as you were
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saying, as a Thoroughbred, he was stigmatized and defined a, a,
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quote, unquote, "dangerous horse."
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He was a stallion on the track, and he was gelded late, after he was nine years old.
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And so, you know, being physically and mentally fried from the track obviously he
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had some behavioral issues that I thought were perfectly reasonable for what I had
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been able to uncover about his history.
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And basically the whole thing started with me just giving him a voice and some space
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for expression, and really pretty quickly he started trusting me and calmed down.
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People at the barn where we are, you know, I board my horses.
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Unfortunately, I don't own a ranch.
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Maybe one day.
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They actually noticed how much he changed in just the span of a few months.
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In fact, they sort of gave me a little bit of a timeline because
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people there were worried that he could hurt other people and horses.
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He never did.
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He only always hurted himself, hurt himself.
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But then he from being a stallion separated from other horses, I was able
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to socialize him, put him in a herd where he learned just to be a horse with
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other horses on a big pasture with, you know, a good management, free choice
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hay, and, you know, just good care.
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So management was most of the care, and then, you know, just we had these
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interactions where I was just letting him express himself and no judgment.
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Like, you know, for instance, he was a big, big rearer.
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He would rear in hand.
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At the time, I wasn't riding him when I got him because I I just got surgery.
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I was in a cast after a freak accident, so I couldn't physically.
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And so we did a lot of groundwork also because I couldn't ride.
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And, you know, just no judgment, just, you know, "I see you, I understand,"
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and, you know, "It's okay, you be you."
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And I saw him kind of looking at me like, "Whoa, you're different."
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It was really, really interesting, and he's so expressive.
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And then from there, you know, we started your classical dressage
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and all the basic patterns that you taught me once in a while he would-
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which he would do very happily.
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And scent work Raquel Dreissmans' study on olfactory power for horses and the fact
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that if you let them seek, you know, the seeking motivation and use their olfactory
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senses, they actually get more forward and also more confident, and confidence was
10:14
something that Jimmy needed at the time.
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He was very spooky, a little unpredictable.
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So there was one phase.
10:21
And then I also saw that he was very good with people.
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He's not an easy horse to ride, so riding was out of the question for people.
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But around people, he can be very mindful and playful, expressive.
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So I noticed that he had an inclination for being around people, and so I
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created a nonprofit basically around him and his preferences in mind.
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Then what you saw that day is a result of a few years of him knowing
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that he has a voice, he has an expression, and that, you know, there
10:55
are guidelines of safety at the ranch because it's not mine, and obviously
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there are other people, other horses.
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But so as long as he doesn't go, for instance, you know, to too close to
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horses on the pasture or, you know, doesn't do anything kind of, you know,
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mm, unsafe, he knows that he's free and he understands the guidelines very well now.
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So that day, actually, what was pretty extraordinary was that another horse
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who's not technically part of my nonprofit decided to join us spontaneously.
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She saw the group of people, she saw the probably the, you know, mood.
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And she's an older horse, she's a paint horse.
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She's in her late 20s and she just lost her best friend a few days before, so
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I knew that she was sad and mourning.
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And I had never seen that horse canter.
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She was always walking allow- around with her best friend around the property,
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free to do whatever they wanted.
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You know, old wise ladies.
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But that day she saw us and she decided to cross all the ranch and
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come play with us, and it was very touching because Nobody asked her.
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She really didn't have to.
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She didn't have to run around, but she felt like she could canter and play
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and just she follow us the whole time.
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So that was another extraordinary gift that, you know, I see the horses actually
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want to join and do what we're doing.
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Like, like, "Oh, this thing seems fun."
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Rupert Isaacson: You talk about, let's talk about the issue of safety.
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A lot of people who
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Would hear this naturally will think, "Yeah, but how on earth
12:32
could you make that safe?"
12:33
You've got horses leaping about.
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You've got people, trees.
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When horses leap about, they throw their hind legs around.
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Yet I know you and I know your relationship with Jimmy, and I
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know Jimmy a bit, and I could see from the video it's grand.
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However, if you were looking at it from the outside and thinking, "Well,
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I'd like to do something like that, but I'm a bit nervous to do something
13:01
like that," what made you â¦ Y- so you talked to us a little bit
13:07
about the progression with Jimmy.
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So of course, perhaps a year ago you wouldn't have made that decision to
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have that kind of a day with him maybe.
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What point in the development of the training and the relationship with him
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and so on did it become very clear to you, "You know, yeah, this is, this is
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something that we could do, and this is something that we could do safely"?
13:29
I think that's a really interesting horseman's question and not
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something which a lot of people in the equine-assisted world get
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to, get to entertain or play with.
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Amanda Minervini: So I never assume.
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I work with the horse I have that day, so I keep in mind their moods
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and, you know, maybe different states.
13:47
So what you saw in the wood was also the end of a progression.
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It was a two and a half hour long session.
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We started by observing the herd from outside of the fence, and then
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I brought Jimmy in the indoor arena in a very protected environment.
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And also, you know, these people, 99% of the time, have no exposure to horses
14:08
so they're also a little afraid of the big animal, and maybe they've never
14:11
seen a horse close like that in their lives, es- which is extraordinary.
14:15
You know, I actually gave a questionnaire before and after so that's how I know.
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And so, I noticed that after a while you know, we did some
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liberty work in the arena.
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Jimmy was happy to go.
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He actually walked and trotted, following student to liberty and doing
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just little circles and kicking a ball.
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Like, you know, little thingies that we do for fun.
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Working on a tarp.
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And he was in a especially good mood.
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He was focused.
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And also, I checked with the students.
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It was a small group, really easy for me to manage by myself.
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And they were not afraid of him.
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They re- I saw their eyes, you know, kind of becoming shiny.
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And so then we went for a walk together on a rope, on a lead line around the ranch.
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Observed his mood again and what he wanted to do, and then he headed to the woods.
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And, you know, at that point I realized that he was complete-
15:03
w- was gonna be completely safe.
15:05
To just let him loose and do whatever he wanted to do, and also suggest,
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you know, sometimes he just goes and does little jumps because he feels
15:13
like it, and you know, he hears people giggle and say, "Oh, how good you are,"
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and he seems to really enjoy that.
15:20
So, a bit is observation.
15:22
I think a little bit is a gut feeling that you know your horse,
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and these were my students.
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I was teaching my animal class in summer, so I also knew them well enough
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to think that it would have worked.
15:36
And and then, you know, the jolly was the fact that the other,
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the paint horse joined us and actually that was a surprise, but
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it worked very, very well as well.
15:46
Rupert Isaacson: It's a good â¦ I mean, that's a very good explanation.
15:48
I think what's so often missed is that if one wants to go outside the box and
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frankly, if one isn't going outside the box, then it's quite unlikely
16:06
that one is going to be able to serve people that are outside the box.
16:10
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
16:10
Rupert Isaacson: But if one's going to go there with horses, it has
16:13
to be this layered progression of-
16:20
A sort of a brain development of the horse, and an em- Mm-hmm
16:24
â¦ emotional intelligence- Nervous system â¦ development of the horse,
16:28
which I think- Yeah â¦ just isn't talked about in- Mm-hmm â¦ training.
16:31
So what you- Mm-hmm â¦ just described there, you know, I could hear it.
16:37
It's like, yes, he started here with these behaviors from this background.
16:41
Then you expose him to, as you say, the good management, the herd, the
16:47
stuff that horses need just for their nervous systems to be horses.
16:51
Then you expose him to Warwick Schiller's Attuned Horsemanship.
16:54
Then you expose him- Yes â¦ to the classical in-hand stuff through us.
16:57
Then you expose him to, and I want to go back to this and ask you questions-
17:00
Amanda Minervini: Trail rides
17:01
Rupert Isaacson: about this olfactory work, yeah.
17:03
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
17:03
Rupert Isaacson: And the trail- Scent
17:04
Amanda Minervini: work
17:05
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: the scent work that we're gonna get, return to this in a moment.
17:08
I'm making a note.
17:09
All of the trail riding, you also, you know, te- you
17:11
went, you hunter trialed him.
17:12
You, I think, even took him hunting a bit.
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And so,
17:15
Amanda Minervini: Hound exercise
17:16
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: hound exercise, okay.
17:17
Yeah.
17:17
But nonetheless, that's, that's still-
17:19
Amanda Minervini: It was a
17:20
Rupert Isaacson: huge- â¦ there are other creatures around, and
17:21
you gotta not kick the hounds, and-
17:22
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, yeah, yeah â¦ great.
17:23
Kind of- Yeah.
17:24
It was a huge simulation, and he did great.
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Did the- But I also, again, I do slowly.
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I add one thing at a time.
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Rupert Isaacson: And so- And this process over a couple of years or more.
17:35
Amanda Minervini: More.
17:36
And
17:36
Rupert Isaacson: then-
17:36
Amanda Minervini: More like a few
17:37
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: right.
17:38
And then you talk about how on that part- even on that particular day,
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there was a long session with these clients, and it started with observation.
17:47
Then it went to the arena.
17:48
Then it goes to the ramp, and then it goes to liberty work.
17:51
Then it goes to the walk on the, the rope.
17:53
Then it goes to, and then at the end, there's this fruit, which
17:57
is this emotionally mature moment that you can only really pick if
18:07
you've gone through all those layers over the years and over the day.
18:12
This is something which the reason I'm drawing so much attention to it, and the
18:16
reason why that video made me sit up was the layers of horsemanship that have to
18:23
go into it are something that is worth dissecting from a practitioner's- Mm-hmm
18:28
point of view.
18:29
So for those people who are listening and watching, what isn't talked
18:35
about with horse training much is the emotional intelligence side of it
18:41
and the neuroplasticity side of it.
18:43
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
18:43
Rupert Isaacson: We talk a lot about biomechanics, if it's riding
18:46
or sport training and stuff.
18:48
We talk a lot about subtleness.
18:50
We talk a lot about horsemanship and making horses functional.
18:56
But what is often not known, because horse- you know, most,
19:00
with the exception of Dr.
19:01
Steven Peters, most horsemen are not neuroscientists, and perhaps Chantelle
19:05
Pratt at the University of Washington.
19:07
Both have been on this show.
19:08
There is this process called neuroplasticity, and- Mm-hmm
19:14
when any mammal moves in these novel ways that are also semi-pattern
19:21
based with lots of crossing of the midline, their personalities
19:27
change just as human personalities change when they do the same thing.
19:31
When humans do a lot of dance, yoga, martial arts, and they get into this
19:36
sort of ability to marry discipline and self-control with joy and spontaneous
19:43
expression, and for those two things not to be at odds with each other, but
19:47
to become into harmony with each other.
19:49
Well, the same thing happens for horses, and that knowing, having seen,
19:55
I think the last time I saw Jimmy was three years ago or four years ago?
19:59
Amanda Minervini: No.
20:00
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe.
20:00
Amanda Minervini: Two, three.
20:01
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
20:02
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
20:02
You were here at Korodo College, invited to give a talk.
20:05
Rupert Isaacson: Right, but it wasn't, it wasn't, let's say it's
20:08
between two and three years ago.
20:10
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
20:10
Rupert Isaacson: The horse that I saw in the video had gone through that change.
20:14
I could see it.
20:15
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
20:16
Rupert Isaacson: And I thought, "Oh, that's good horsemanship on Amanda's part.
20:19
She's, she's brought him there.
20:21
She's, now she's recognized that this emotional intelligence has kicked
20:26
in with him, and now she can really- Do, you know, g- go o- to sort of
20:33
unlimited places with this horse.
20:36
When, you know, you and I both know that the average equine establishment, whether
20:42
it's therapeutic-based or sport-based or whatever, doesn't allow for this at all.
20:48
There are some- Mm-hmm â¦ who do, of course, but the vast majority, it's
20:51
about staying within a very preexisting structure that you do not deviate from.
20:57
And- Mm-hmm â¦ it's always said, "Well, if you deviate from that, it's not safe."
21:02
And it is true that there is a risk to deviating from it, but there's
21:06
a risk of staying within it because horses get sour, and break down,
21:10
and shut down, or explode, or bite their handler- Yeah â¦ or whatever.
21:15
And if you do go outside it, you have to go through the exact kind
21:18
of dedicated obsessive sort of horse voyage that you've done- Mm
21:26
with, with Jimmy.
21:28
But the fruit of it means that you actually do really deliver
21:33
wellbeing, and I could see this loud and clear in that video.
21:37
Amanda Minervini: Thank you.
21:38
Well, I do think that some horses do better with a routine but Jimmy doesn't.
21:43
He's a very inventive horse and, you know, he just gets things immediately,
21:47
and then he wants to do new things.
21:48
So he kept me really on my toes to always find something that would engage his
21:53
brain and his body in a, in a way that would feel good for him, considering
21:58
his injuries, his limitations, you know.
22:01
So what you said about the martial arts, for instance, you know, I really
22:04
think that harmonious movement and a sort of a willing- happiness and
22:08
willingness to learn go together, like in your movement method and all
22:12
the research that's coming from it.
22:14
It worked for me because when I started doing martial arts, I practiced kung
22:18
fu for 17 years at, pretty intensely.
22:22
That's when I became a better student and I could go to graduate school.
22:26
Because the way I was in high school, I couldn't really sit, you know.
22:30
If I didn't have my dog with me I couldn't focus.
22:33
And you know, at the time I never thought about those things.
22:35
I'm only thinking about it now.
22:37
So when I actually gave my body a way to express itself and
22:43
you know, I felt really good.
22:44
Then also mentally I was focused and ready to learn, you know, brain-derived
22:48
neurotrophic factor that you talk about.
22:50
And so for Jimmy this applies also very much as a horse who was used to, you know,
22:57
exercising very heavily, very intensely.
23:00
But his mental health and his nervous system was never
23:03
consid- considered before.
23:05
So, yeah, I do think that putting together his energy with the maturity of a nervous
23:11
system development was the- golden thing, you know, the sweet spot that
23:18
helped him become the horse he is today.
23:20
And you know, he's just mellow and happy, and doesn't even need to work that much
23:25
anymore, even mentally or physically.
23:27
He's just very stable
23:31
Rupert Isaacson: You, thanks for bringing up brain derived
23:34
neurotrophic factor, which is-
23:36
Amanda Minervini: Yes
23:37
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: what neuroplasticity actually is, for those
23:39
listeners who are not familiar.
23:41
This is the protein that your brain produces, an amino acid, a
23:45
protein, when you move and problem solve and do novel movement.
23:49
And this is, if you like, the raw material that becomes the stem cell, that becomes
23:54
the neuron, the brain cell, that billions of them, that is the neuroplasticity.
23:58
So if you don't do these types of movement, you don't get this brain derived
24:03
neurotrophic factor amino acid protein that then becomes all these things.
24:07
So that's why you gotta move your ass, and horses do too.
24:11
But not just in a, in a, in a routine way.
24:14
And you're, you're right, some horses do like routines.
24:16
I mean, my horses have routines, but they- the routines are not set in stone.
24:19
No.
24:20
And the routines are endlessly tweakable, and the routines areâ¦
24:24
You know, it- it's a, they're like us.
24:26
They love- Variety, but they don't like surprises.
24:31
They love change, but they hate change.
24:34
Mm.
24:34
It's all about how it's presented.
24:35
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm, how it's presented
24:37
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but the more of this BDNF they have in their brain,
24:41
just like people, the greater their comfort zone can expand and the more
24:44
they can actually deal with change.
24:46
So that when you are in some situation with a horse, if you think about
24:51
ancestrally, historically, the sort of situations we would end up with
24:54
it on horses, where the cannons are firing at you or the Mongol hordes are
24:59
coming down on you, or you've got to go catch that cow that's standing on
25:03
the edge of the cliff, or the things that people have done w- on horses.
25:07
This can only happen with this kind of BDNF where the horse and
25:10
the human really come together.
25:13
But to see it in the therapeutic context like that was very beautiful.
25:16
So I'm taking off my hat.
25:18
There it is.
25:19
Well done.
25:20
Amanda Minervini: Thank you.
25:21
Can you- Much appreciated.
25:22
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it, it's so my pleasure.
25:24
I mean, you, you've, you've really put in the work, Amanda.
25:26
It's impressive.
25:29
Can you talk to us about the scent work?
25:31
This is something which I think is new for a lot of people,
25:34
and it's, it's new for me.
25:35
I think we're all aware that horses obviously have this great olfactory life.
25:41
Amanda Minervini: Sense.
25:42
Yes.
25:42
So they have the nasal and the vomeronasal.
25:45
So even as a forest organ, they have an immense potential.
25:49
And it's dependent on how you judge it, it can even be more developed than dogs.
25:56
So yes, there is this Dutch lady, Raquel Draaisma, who
26:00
has, Raquel Draais- She comeâ¦
26:01
Rupert Isaacson: Draaisma.
26:03
Amanda Minervini: Ra- Is it- Yeah, I was able to meet her.
26:03
Is that with a D, Draaisma, Draaisma?
26:03
Yes.
26:03
Yeah.
26:03
D-R-E-I-S-S-M-A.
26:03
D-R, D-R-A-A-I-S-M-A.
26:03
Okay.
26:03
So she, D-R-A-A-I-S- A-A-I-S-M-A, Draaisma â¦ Draaisma.
26:03
Okay.
26:03
Raquel Draaisma.
26:03
The- Okay.
26:03
Raquel, yeah.
26:03
Talk, talk to us about her.
26:30
So she actually started from dog training and she's done some research on, you
26:35
know, learning and, and behavior.
26:38
I met her, she was invited at last year's edition of the International Society
26:43
for Equitation Science conference that happened in Colorado, so I was able to go.
26:47
It's happening in Denmark next week and I don't have funding
26:50
to go, but, It- So she was there
26:51
Rupert Isaacson: sorry, what, what, what was the name of the conference?
26:53
Amanda Minervini: International Society of Equitation Science,
26:56
of which I am an academic member.
26:58
Rupert Isaacson: International
26:58
Amanda Minervini: Society- and they have this wonderful conference
27:00
every year and it's it's great.
27:02
It's all, you know, obviously based on science, but then, you know, we were
27:05
at CSU, Colorado State University, at the Temple Grandin Center with
27:09
Temple Grandin, and there were some demos as well with horses therein.
27:14
And Rachel did a demo with a beautiful pony who did amazingly well.
27:18
So, basically in, â¦ Sh- she has a book that's called Scent Work
27:22
for Horses, which I recommend.
27:24
So I, I don't have my copy with me right now, but I do own my copy.
27:28
Rupert Isaacson: Scent Work for-
27:28
Amanda Minervini: For Horses.
27:30
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
27:31
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
27:32
And so, basically according to her studies the olfactory stimulation
27:37
develops and simulates some areas of the brain that then will also act
27:42
on seeking behavior, motivation and mm- make horses a little bit more
27:50
confident and exploratory, you know?
27:52
They're not afraid of something, they want to explore, even with,
27:56
with, with caution sometimes.
27:58
And this is something that my, actually my other horse, Haka, my therapy
28:01
horse, is doing also very well.
28:05
So for instance, in the demo that I saw and a little bit how it's explained in
28:09
the book, you can hide little treats or pads that have been maybe treated
28:16
with some aromatherapy or essential oils and different herbs in an arena.
28:21
Like, you know, she has these little pockets where you can put things and
28:25
seal and hide them, and then, you know, you teach a horse that they
28:28
can look for them, like a dog really, and then get a reward, and they get
28:33
so happy to do this kind of work.
28:35
And now, you know, they're also training horses for search and rescue.
28:38
Like, they're actually smelling, they're not just carrying people
28:41
in you know, impervious locations.
28:44
So yeah, I thought it was a great book, and then I was so happy to
28:46
meet her and see her work, and I I try to tell people about her work.
28:50
It needs more attention.
28:52
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm busy researching it, that's why my
28:54
eyes are down here while you talk.
28:55
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
28:56
Yeah, yeah.
28:56
You're good.
28:57
Rupert Isaacson: So I've got here j- j- j- j- I'm, I'm reading the blurb on the book.
29:02
It's, it's, it's pretty fascinating.
29:05
But what I'm- Mm-hmm â¦ looking for is what are the essential oils â¦ is
29:10
there, like, a go-to set of eight essential oils that are, like-
29:15
Amanda Minervini: I think lavender is used â¦ the
29:17
Rupert Isaacson: starter pack for any horse or whatever?
29:18
Like, what did she show you?
29:20
Amanda Minervini: So I don't remember what she used that day.
29:22
I think it was different kind of treats, pieces of carrots, alfalfa.
29:25
I do use lavender because it's something that, you know, Jimmy happens to like,
29:29
and I know that it's safe with horses.
29:31
Just, you know, maybe like a micro drop on a, on a pad.
29:35
And yeah also like the lemongrass- So you
29:37
Rupert Isaacson: hide that in the arena?
29:38
You, you would, you would scent something with lavender and then
29:40
hide it somewhere and have him- You
29:41
Amanda Minervini: can hi- if you only have an arena, yes â¦ seek it out?
29:43
Or how do you- But, yeah, you excavate a little.
29:46
You try to remember where you put things so that in case the horse doesn't find
29:50
them, they don't stay there forever.
29:52
And then, you know, the horses will dig them up.
29:55
But also you can, I also have, for instance in liberty I have spread
30:00
alfalfa pellets on a rock or by a post and, you know, so they know that
30:05
they have to look and they will find a reward, but they have to smell.
30:10
They will smell.
30:12
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, what you're talking about there, of course,
30:14
sounds an awful lot like enrichment.
30:16
You know, what people in, in zoos would call en- enrichment and so on.
30:19
But it sounds like you're- Sure â¦ doing something beyond that, and that's,
30:22
I guess, what I'm trying to dig for.
30:24
Amanda Minervini: Well, it's because it's not just playful.
30:26
Mm-hmm.
30:26
It builds horses confi- confidence and inquisitiveness,
30:30
so they know that they're safe.
30:33
And then if they explore there is a positive reward.
30:36
So this also happens in the situations of anxiety.
30:40
If they see something that is a little worrisome, instead ofâ¦
30:43
You know, Jimmy used to run backwards, which wasn't a
30:45
great behavior to deal with.
30:47
Now he will freeze for a little bit and then think about it.
30:51
I don't push him.
30:52
Look at me.
30:53
If I say it's okay, he will go and touch the thing with his nose.
30:59
Rupert Isaacson: Ifâ¦
31:00
Let me just dissect this a bit, because people- Mm-hmm â¦ will be
31:03
saying, "Well, you know, what, what's the practical one, two, three?"
31:05
So is the practical one, two, three that you first test out certain,
31:10
apart from the treats that you know that they like, but itâ¦
31:12
let's say you're working with essential oils.
31:14
Do you test out certain essential oils, or did Raquel say, "Look, there are
31:20
these ones that are sort of known for most horses to have a good reaction to?"
31:27
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
31:27
She she has a set of recommended things, smells.
31:30
Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember any of them, Sam?
31:32
Amanda Minervini: I, I do remember that probably lavender is one.
31:34
I don't remember if it's in, in the book or in some other thing on the website,
31:39
but I think maybe you should talk to her.
31:42
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
31:43
We should get her on the show.
31:44
I'm justâ¦
31:45
Okay,
31:45
Amanda Minervini: and- She will be happy to, I'm sure
31:47
Rupert Isaacson: And then is the second phase then, I'm just
31:51
typing recommended essential oils and see what comes up from her.
31:56
Is it then, is the next stage that you h- you let them smell, say, a cloth
32:03
with one of those scents on, and then you hide that cloth under the sand
32:06
in a round pen where there's not too much area for the horse to explore?
32:10
N- no.
32:10
Amanda Minervini: What I've done and what I've seen her do is not,
32:13
the horses have not smelled before.
32:15
They don't need that.
32:16
You just hide things, and they will go and research the things
32:19
that are interesting to them.
32:22
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
32:22
But for example, are we talking a 100-acre field?
32:27
Are we talking a 20-meter round pen?
32:30
Are we talk- what, what, what are we talking here?
32:33
Amanda Minervini: So, she was working in the Temple Grandin Center's
32:37
arena, which is a fairly big arena.
32:39
And I've done it in bigger spaces on a, on a field.
32:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
32:43
Amanda Minervini: So it works, and it also depends on how much
32:46
the horse has been understanding.
32:48
So if you start in an arena, you have a little bit more
32:51
control, but then you can extend.
32:53
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
32:54
Amanda Minervini: And I think there is no limit to the distance.
32:56
You can even probably think of a longer trail ride, one, two-hour
33:00
long, and if you have time to disseminate things along the way.
33:06
It will work
33:07
Rupert Isaacson: But what, how would you, how would you incorporate
33:09
that into your trail ride?
33:10
You would, you have, you would, you have pre â¦ You would
33:12
have put things out first?
33:14
Amanda Minervini: I have not had time to do that, but like in the
33:17
little woods where we s- you, you saw us working, you can do that.
33:20
Mm-hmm Because it's you know, it's not a huge amount of land.
33:24
And if you had time you could I don't know, bike through a trail and
33:29
put the treats and smells and then ride and see what your horses do.
33:34
And, you know, for sure let always horses smell the text
33:38
messages from the other horses.
33:41
So manure that's on the way, I always let my horses smell it and engage.
33:47
Rupert Isaacson: I'm yeah, I'm just thinking this is, this is, this is
33:52
huge because let's say, for example we, you're working a sensory trail.
33:57
I'm just thinking- Mm-hmm â¦ of, of, of one of our projects which is Child Vision
34:03
in Ireland which is an- Mm-hmm â¦ urban horseboy a movement method practice at St.
34:09
Joseph's School for the Blind in the middle of Dublin.
34:12
And they have a-
34:13
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
34:13
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: sensory trail that they take the horses on which is
34:16
largely tactile because a lot of the kids are vision impaired or blind.
34:20
And I could totally see-
34:23
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, why not smell for
34:24
Rupert Isaacson: people and horses?
34:25
Why not smell for, for both the people and the horses through that?
34:28
But I'm, what I'm looking for is the structure of, or at
34:31
least a structure to begin with.
34:33
So I'm also familiar, for example, with bloodhound hunting.
34:37
So-
34:38
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
34:38
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: with that, you know, we'll sometimes we hunt a
34:42
person, sometimes we hunt a horse.
34:44
So let's say I'm the quarry on the hunting day.
34:46
Mm-hmm.
34:47
I will ru- take a handkerchief, rub my horse's legs down, and
34:51
then give that to the huntsman.
34:54
And then I'll go ride what's gonna be the trail, and then at a certain point
34:59
he will take that out of his pocket, let the hounds smell it, and let them go.
35:04
And I think we're all familiar with that kind of process, but
35:09
at least theoretically, right?
35:10
But you're talking about something a little bit different, and I- Mm-hmm,
35:14
Amanda Minervini: yeah â¦ think
35:14
Rupert Isaacson: I'd like to try it, and I think other people
35:16
listening would like to try it.
35:18
So forgive me for being pedantic.
35:19
I'm just gonna try to dissect it a little bit more.
35:22
Amanda Minervini: Yeah,
35:22
Rupert Isaacson: no, it's fine.
35:23
Let's, let's say I want to, I want to bring this into a trail ride.
35:27
Let's say I discover that my horse likes lavender, my horse likes
35:32
Amanda Minervini: oregano.
35:33
Lemongrass.
35:34
Rupert Isaacson: Lemongrass.
35:34
Oregano.
35:35
Yeah.
35:36
And so then I've discovered this because the horse has kind of gone, "Hmm, hmm,"
35:41
you know, somehow- Mm-hmm â¦ when I've given that to him to smell, and
35:45
has maybe rooted up some things in a small area which have that smell.
35:50
So now I want to go to do it with a trail ride.
35:54
Talk about the preparation of that.
35:56
Amanda Minervini: I was starting in arena.
35:59
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
35:59
Amanda Minervini: Controlled environment.
36:00
And I started putting treats onâ¦
36:04
We had some barrels from the barrel racers, so they were not hidden under.
36:09
They were visible but smellable on top of a blue barrel.
36:15
And so the horses got the sense there were things to find.
36:19
And then, you know, from visible you go to invisible in a controlled
36:22
environment, and then progressively you can extend the area.
36:26
You could teach the horse a command or a request.
36:30
Sorry, not a command, but, like, you know, go seek or search.
36:34
And the thing, yeah, that is different from you know, the bloodhound is that
36:37
they are searching for one thing, which I think is the same thing
36:40
they d- they do with horses who are doing search and rescue of people.
36:44
They're looking for the one person, whereas this one is very horizontal
36:49
and open, so which I think is also part of the playfulness.
36:54
And then you can expand on a trail ride.
36:57
Rupert Isaacson: So-
36:57
Amanda Minervini: I think
36:58
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: when you're, when you're, the horse is in this arena doing this,
37:02
is it at liberty, or have you gotâ¦
37:03
are you riding- Yeah
37:04
on top of the horse?
37:05
Amanda Minervini: Liberty you can ride if you want.
37:08
Yeah, we've done both, but, Yeah â¦ I've seen the demos at liberty.
37:12
Rupert Isaacson: I could see that being quite fun to s- to sit on the horse
37:16
and- Yeah â¦ drop the rein, perhaps after they've done it at liberty
37:20
to sort of introduce the idea that this is what we're doing right now.
37:23
And then-
37:24
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
37:24
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: get up, and then ex- experience where the horse
37:28
takes me from his sense of smell.
37:31
I could see-
37:32
Amanda Minervini: Yes, and you know that I, yeah, I like
37:34
doing that with Jimmy a lot.
37:35
You know, I have a rein keeper.
37:36
I don't touch the rein.
37:37
He can go wherever he wants.
37:38
So he will find treats, and then in the meantime he will go on poles, drop
37:43
poles just because they're there and he wants to do them, and I don't ask him.
37:47
So, you know, these are, this is the fun part of doing this kind of work with
37:51
a ridden horse, that then, you know, there is this motivation for movements.
37:54
You're not even using your calves in the least.
37:58
They offer, and, you know, obviously you have to be comfortable, that there can be
38:02
some mm, mm, change in balance for you.
38:06
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
38:06
Amanda Minervini: But also, you know, Jimmy knows that I'm okay, and he do- he
38:09
doesn't do anything too sudden or quickly
38:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
38:14
I'm, I'm thinking in a therapeutic environment, you know, you could even
38:17
do this if, if the horses and the handlers knew each other very, very well
38:23
with certain clients where you could perhaps have people walking alongside
38:30
but not side-walkers, but ready to, I don't know, bring you down if- Catch
38:35
necessary or, or whatever.
38:36
Mm-hmm.
38:37
There is a sort of a ground crew, but one would have to train oneself
38:40
to be really discreet to not distract the horse from its search.
38:48
Mm-hmm.
38:49
But I could see that being really fascinating as a
38:51
perspective-taking exercise too.
38:54
Like, if you're trying to establish things like theory of mind, you know?
38:59
Mm-hmm.
39:00
That other people think different things to you or-
39:02
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
39:03
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: that, that a horse carrying you along while kind of looking
39:10
after your weight, but while actually doing this job of trying to locate these
39:13
things, I think would serve as a very good metaphor, while at the same time
39:20
delivering a lot of neuroplasticity to the person sitting on top.
39:24
Mm-hmm â¦ also perhaps one could do that on foot, right?
39:27
You could try to follow the horse at a distance not trying to-
39:30
Mm-hmm â¦ predict where he goes.
39:33
Now, if you take it to the trail ride, again, are you creating
39:38
scent stations that you see if the horse wants to go between?
39:41
Or are you carrying scents in your pocket to calm the horse should there be an
39:47
issue, or is it both, or what is it?
39:50
Amanda Minervini: What am I carrying in my pockets?
39:51
Rupert Isaacson: Well, so are you â¦ If you do it on a
39:55
trail ride- Mm-hmm â¦ have you
39:56
Amanda Minervini: created
39:57
Rupert Isaacson: scent stations?
39:58
So the scents are, I don't know, on the ground by this tree, and
40:02
then perhaps 100 yards over there there's another one by that tree
40:06
or, or by that boulder or something.
40:08
Or- But
40:08
Amanda Minervini: it's always different.
40:10
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
40:10
T- talk to us how you'd structure that.
40:13
Amanda Minervini: It would be, like, I know where things are, and the horse
40:16
and the other students do not know, so they're involved in the search with the
40:20
horse, and they see that the horse can smell things that they have no idea.
40:25
They, you know, because, you know, humans cannot smell at that level.
40:29
So I think it's interesting also to have students follow the horse,
40:33
because the horse knows a lot more than you in that circumstance.
40:37
So on a trail ride, it was just scatter things in a always different.
40:42
No, I don't create a reliable station.
40:44
Maybe at the beginning just to say, "Okay.
40:47
Just to be clear, this is, we're gonna look for things.
40:50
You're gonna smell."
40:53
And then simply I try to count how many and more or less remember where,
41:00
so that we don't leave stuff out.
41:02
But that's all.
41:03
And then it's pretty spontaneous and it's not linear, you know?
41:06
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
41:06
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:08
And then,
41:08
Amanda Minervini: You may go for- forward, you ca- maybe the horse decides, "Oh,
41:11
no, now I smell something here, but that's more interesting, so I'm gonna go
41:14
further then and then come back here."
41:16
You know, they don't think like we do.
41:17
Right.
41:18
We would probably do a bit more linear, but also that's interesting
41:20
to move like a horse would move Hmm.
41:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
41:26
Okay, and then you said a few minutes ago that if a horse was perhaps
41:30
nervous about something you could- Yes â¦ use this olfactory thing
41:34
to help them build confidence, so-
41:36
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, for sure
41:37
Rupert Isaacson: Let me ask you how that would play out.
41:39
So, for example, would that look like the horse is afraid
41:43
of the, of the rubbish bins.
41:45
I'm riding up the road, there's my neighbor's rubbish bin,
41:47
and the horse says, "There's, you know, I'm afraid of Mr.
41:51
Rubbish Bin."
41:52
What I tend to do when it's that situation is I have a pre choreography in my head.
42:00
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
42:01
Rupert Isaacson: So I've picked that battle that day.
42:03
So I'm not surprised by it, and what I will not do is sit up there and try
42:06
and kick and make the horse go past it.
42:09
I will automatically dismount, and I'll start- Mm-hmm â¦ my hand work as if I
42:12
was in the arena, like, "Oh, okay, fine.
42:14
You don't wanna go forward here, so let's have- Yeah
42:16
some shoulder in and the eh, and let's have some counter shoulder in."
42:18
Sure.
42:19
Eh.
42:20
And we just find ourselves moving closer to Mr.
42:23
Rubbish Bin, and then I'll beâ¦
42:25
And then he'll be like, "Oh."
42:26
And I'll be like, "Oh, yeah, look, this is my friend Mr.
42:28
Rubbish Bin.
42:29
This is my friend Pony.
42:30
Pony, this is my friend Mr.
42:31
Rubbish Bin.
42:32
Tell you what, Mr.
42:33
Rubbish Bin actually quite likes shoulders in, you know, I've found.
42:36
So let's do some shoulders in around the rubbish bin," and da, da, da, da, da.
42:39
And but I will, of course, also use treats in that.
42:43
Mm-hmm.
42:44
And it, I- Yeah â¦ I'm always astonished when people say, "Don't use treats."
42:47
It's like but," like-
42:49
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, I'm Italian, you know, we're all based on food
42:52
in my culture, so I don't get it.
42:54
Yeah, I don't get it.
42:54
I also treat my friends, and I think my friends like me, that I give
42:57
them treats- Indeed, indeed â¦ or bring snacks to students, you know?
43:00
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed.
43:01
So, We all like to be paid for our work, you know what I mean?
43:04
So- â¦ without having to wait for the invoice to be, you know, a year old.
43:09
So, and you know, David Lichman, who Iâ¦
43:12
There was aâ¦
43:13
We did a really great interview with him over on Live Free
43:15
Ride Free not so long ago.
43:16
He uses treats a lot.
43:18
He's one of the best liberty trainers out there, and he says, "Rupert,
43:20
just come bearing gifts," you know?
43:22
If, if you show up at somebody's house to stay, come bearing gifts.
43:26
If you show up to your horses, come bearing gifts.
43:28
If you show up to your dog, come bearing gifts.
43:30
You show up for a date- Yes
43:30
â¦ Amanda Minervini: just bring flowers.
43:31
I call them offerings
43:32
Rupert Isaacson: You know, this is just basically-
43:34
But so I could see how when I pull out the treat-
43:39
Amanda Minervini: Mm
43:39
Rupert Isaacson: I'm getting into the olfactory seeking thing.
43:44
When I'm in- As
43:45
Amanda Minervini: well
43:46
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: shoulders in-y things, I'm in the brain change-y thing.
43:50
And so I'm trying to marry brain change-y thing with seeking thing, and you know,
43:55
next week the horse is like, "Yeah garbage bin, shmarbage bin, it's fine."
43:59
But you're talking about doing something slightly different, I think.
44:02
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, yeah
44:03
Rupert Isaacson: So can you explain-
44:04
Amanda Minervini: So basically, with a garbage bin, at that point,
44:08
hopefully you have a horse who, by having practiced spontaneously the
44:13
scent work, will have developed a curiosity even through some fear.
44:19
So if the fear is too big, I don't ask the horse anything at all,
44:23
and actually I turn them around.
44:25
Yes, I dismount, I turn them around.
44:27
They don't have to go close.
44:28
I just don't want to put-
44:29
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure â¦ too much pressure.
44:31
And you, and you must understand that in the situation I'm describing,
44:33
if I feel the horse is genuinely really afraid, we're not doing it.
44:38
Amanda Minervini: Right.
44:38
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
44:39
Amanda Minervini: There is, there is no learning in that situation.
44:41
Yeah.
44:41
The horse has to be- Yeah â¦ regulated enough- Yeah â¦ for learning, so that's
44:45
a- Mm-hmm â¦ also golden principle.
44:47
I never break this rule.
44:49
It doesn't matter, you know, what's happening.
44:51
Sure.
44:52
Well, even if they- So because also I-
44:53
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
44:53
â¦ Amanda Minervini: promised my horses I will never put them in a freak-out
44:56
situation, so they keep trusting me.
44:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
44:59
Amanda Minervini: So it also depends a little bit on the horse, because they
45:01
have different characters, and maybe that day they're feeling a little different,
45:04
so I try to gauge how they're feeling.
45:06
So if they're feeling, you know, the hue stress, so the positive stress of this
45:11
thing I'm not sure about- Mm â¦ but they check with you and they feel willing, then
45:16
I will take a step forward and name the thing They know we're verbal creatures, so
45:24
actually they do rely on listening to us.
45:26
So when I say the thing, I have in- I have this relationship with my horses,
45:31
"Okay, you know what it is and you're going forward, so I can follow you."
45:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
45:36
Amanda Minervini: And then when, whatever time it takes, when, if they touch it with
45:41
their nose, I do give a treat, but again, I want them in a state that it's like,
45:45
you know, just enough stimulation, but not too much, and certainly not pure fear.
45:51
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
45:51
Amanda Minervini: So in that case, the sand work would have given
45:54
you the foundations to have a horse who's already pretty well
45:58
self-regulated and trusting you.
46:01
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
46:02
Amanda Minervini: And then at some point- Yeah â¦ the horse
46:04
will don't even trust you.
46:04
So now I have a little bit of the opposite problem with my Korab, because
46:09
he's actually way too forward to go- Mm
46:12
towards things he, that scare him, and I have to kind of slow him down and say,
46:16
"Just take some time and think about it.
46:18
You don't have to go-
46:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
46:19
â¦ Amanda Minervini: so fast."
46:21
'Cause he's- Okay â¦ you know, he's young and, you know, he wants to perform.
46:24
But I'm like, "No, take it easy."
46:28
Rupert Isaacson: This makes perfect sense.
46:29
And yes, it's a good- Thank
46:30
Amanda Minervini: you
46:30
Rupert Isaacson: it's good that you make the distinction of-
46:33
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
46:33
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: if a horse is in-
46:34
Amanda Minervini: Adjustments for personality
46:36
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: total fear, because I would, I was sort of
46:40
taking that as read, you know?
46:43
But it's good that you point it out, because, yes, there are people, of
46:48
course, who will force the horse to go towards the thing that isâ¦
46:53
You know, so if I'm doing the garbage can thing, I'm certainly not doing that
46:57
with any horse that I think is genuinely- Mm-hmm â¦ genuinely, genuinely afraid.
47:00
Right.
47:00
Then I've got- Yeah â¦ a whole other bunch of strategies where it'll
47:04
be some time before we get there.
47:07
I'm just talking about a horse that's-
47:09
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
47:09
Rupert Isaacson: minorly spooky.
47:11
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47:14
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48:37
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48:55
Amanda Minervini: So people who will do that-
48:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
48:57
â¦ Amanda Minervini: force a horse too quick, too fast, will just destroy the
49:00
connection and the trust with their horse.
49:02
Exactly.
49:02
And you know, I just was in South Dakota at a Lakota sun dance, and I saw, I was
49:08
there because I wanted to see how they use the s- the horses, paint medicine
49:13
horses in the ceremony, and so you see what these horses are able to do, which is
49:18
an, a- any horse person will understand, it's an extreme feat, because it's an
49:24
extremely chao- chaotic situation with more than 250 people dancing barefoot,
49:30
and people being pierced, and ch- ropes hanging from the trees with the
49:34
eagle dancers connected to the tree.
49:37
And so these horses have to go in, and there are drums being played incessantly.
49:43
So you know, it's not just the noise, it's also the vibrations.
49:45
And these horses are- Scared, but they understand they're pretty balanced.
49:52
They're like, "Okay, this is what we do.
49:53
It's a very short time.
49:55
We know these people," because it's always the same people riding the same horses.
49:59
They travel through different ceremonies where there are horses.
50:02
And they do it, you know?
50:03
They pull the rope and they pierce people who chose to be pierced by a horse.
50:10
And what I've seen, I could have never imagined.
50:12
Rupert Isaacson: Pierced by a horse?
50:14
Amanda Minervini: By.
50:14
So the horse is pulling the rope that's piercing them.
50:18
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
50:18
So yeah, okay.
50:20
So let's, well, I think- People are still probably thinking
50:26
in the scent thing, and we've-
50:28
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
50:28
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: I did want to go to your recent experience at the
50:31
Sundance, the Lakota Sundance.
50:33
But remember, a lot of people don't know what that is.
50:36
So just pause quickly-
50:39
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
50:40
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and then we, we're gonna go there.
50:41
Let's just wrap up the scent thing, because I, I'm, I think
50:44
this is really useful information for any of us that are in this-
50:47
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
50:47
Rupert Isaacson: in this business.
50:49
So what you are talking about is in that situation where you're trying to
50:54
build confidence towards scary object or scary stuff, you're saying that
51:00
it's a bit more like the BDNF process, the, the, the neuroplasticity process
51:04
that we were talking about earlier.
51:06
That by having the horse in a habitude of this sort of seeking work, it just
51:14
generally builds a sort of confidence that the, "I'm scared of a rubbish
51:19
bin," becomes less and less of a thing because they, the horse's personality
51:24
and brain has kind of evolved away from that type of eh, emotionally
51:31
juvenile response, let's say.
51:33
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, that's my interpretation of Rachel Dreissman's
51:37
theory by having, you know, read the book, see her working and
51:41
discussed her, with her a little.
51:43
So but I do think that she would be the perfect person for you to talk to about
51:47
more details, because I would beâ¦
51:49
Like, I haven't reread the book in the last year because I just
51:51
started using it, and it works great, and it makes perfect sense to me.
51:55
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
51:55
Amanda Minervini: I wouldn't want to be, like, you know,
51:57
maybe misinterpreting things.
51:59
Also, yeah, I, I, I don't have the copy with me, otherwise I would have,
52:03
you know, read quickly a few things.
52:04
But so her theory is that it stimulates parts of the brain that
52:08
then now make horses more confident.
52:11
Yeah, it makes- And she has, you know, ran some
52:12
Rupert Isaacson: studies
52:13
it makes perfect sense.
52:13
Be- it makes perfect sense, 'cause I, I also use a lot of trick training
52:17
with my horses for exactly that, exactly that- Mm-hmm â¦ thing.
52:21
So generally, any horse that, say, is going to be introduced to Mr.
52:25
Rubbish Bin by me, has also gone through quite a lot of targeting training.
52:30
Like, we get them to pick up- Yes
52:32
socks with a treat in them and then hand you, hand you the sock,
52:35
'cause it's fun with the kids.
52:36
But we've noticed that when the horses are in that seeking mode,
52:41
they're very, very far from any kind of panic, and just like us.
52:45
So- We, we use that.
52:47
And then of course I wouldn't be above taking a pair of socks and putting it
52:50
on one of those rubbish bins and da, da, da, you know, maybe doing that-
52:54
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
52:54
Rupert Isaacson: in a controlled environment, and then doing
52:55
it on the street, and then the horse goes, "Ooh, well maybe
52:57
there's something there for me."
52:59
So all of that makes perfect sense to me, and I could totally see how one
53:03
could bring that into therapeutic work also with certain types of client.
53:07
Yeah.
53:07
With certain types of horse.
53:09
And while you were talking, I was thinking, "How much of a thing is this?"
53:12
So I started looking up while you were talking you know, the, the search and
53:15
rescue stuff that you alluded to, and it's definitely a thing, and there's people
53:20
out there certifying horses and people.
53:22
And there's something called the Novaki- Yeah
53:24
train- Novaki training method.
53:25
Mm-hmm.
53:26
So this all bears further inquiry from us, I think.
53:29
Mm-hmm.
53:29
Amanda Minervini: And
53:29
Rupert Isaacson: so I'm grateful that you brought it to my attention.
53:32
Thank you.
53:33
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, me too.
53:33
Because I mean, for Jimmy, being a massively spooky horse-
53:37
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
53:37
â¦ Amanda Minervini: it did great.
53:38
It really, really helped.
53:40
And, you know, I started playing with those things just to play.
53:44
I wasn't, like, going with the agenda, "Oh, I need you to be more confident,"
53:48
but it happened, and it's a little bit like students doing the ego sessions.
53:52
I wasn't expecting them to repeat over and over in the post-session questionnaires
53:57
that they felt more balanced, more focused, more even willing to do homework.
54:01
I wasn't doing it for that reason, but I'm happy that it's, you
54:04
know, very pleasant side effect.
54:08
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
54:08
You know our mutual friend, I think you know our mutual friend Kez Kez
54:12
Sullivan, University of Bournemouth, who does a lot of research.
54:15
She's now become Dr.
54:16
Kez Sullivan as of last week.
54:18
Who
54:19
Amanda Minervini: has- Congratulations
54:20
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: done extensive work into equine-assisted stuff.
54:25
And she â¦ Oh, where do-
54:30
Where's my brain going with this?
54:31
Why did I bring that up suddenly?
54:34
Oh, yes, because she has found in all of the studies that they've done,
54:39
mostly through the University of Bournemouth in the UK, that the side
54:43
effect that pretty much all of the equine-assisted things have, and she,
54:48
she studied a wide variety of them.
54:50
Mm-hmm.
54:51
That it â¦ That, that people are never going out specifically for this,
54:55
but it's massive, massive increase of confidence and self-belief in the people
55:00
that engage in these equine activities.
55:03
And I think we know this from ourselves, right?
55:05
That we've all been scared little bunnies, and that horses made us braver.
55:11
But it's very
55:12
Amanda Minervini: interesting, you know.
55:12
I've seen, I've seen bunnies fight hard, having had bunnies in my life, but yeah.
55:17
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, and just- Just- â¦ 'cause you're scared
55:18
doesn't mean you don't fight.
55:19
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
55:20
Rupert Isaacson: Sometimes you fight because you're scared.
55:22
You-
55:22
Amanda Minervini: With those big feet.
55:24
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
55:24
But it's, it's interesting that that is, seems to be always a
55:28
really consistent side effect.
55:30
And if you- Yeah â¦ are in fact deliberately building confidence in
55:33
horses through the therapeutic thing that you're doing, you know, h- this
55:39
olfactory work is definitely building confidence in the horse, w- how could
55:44
that not be transferred to the human?
55:46
To
55:46
Amanda Minervini: people.
55:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
55:48
So I think that's a fascinating insight.
55:50
So Dr.
55:50
Minervini, we are grateful for your insight.
55:53
Now, now I want to move to where you've just come back from.
55:56
So I know that you have just been attending â¦ You live in the
56:00
western States even though you're from Ba- Bari in in beautiful-
56:04
Amanda Minervini: Southern Italy
56:05
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: southern Italy where I've been with you to run a retreat.
56:09
Mm-hmm.
56:09
And it was amazing.
56:10
Mm-hmm.
56:13
You are there in the western states and you have just come back from
56:17
attending one of the most iconic spiritual expressions that horse
56:24
cultures on the planet have, and that horse culture is the Lakota who areâ¦
56:30
people know them also as the Sioux.
56:32
Which are a great confederation of tribes in the Northern Plains area of the USA.
56:40
And when peopleâ¦
56:40
if you're not American, if you think General Custer's Last Stand, well, the
56:45
last stand was against the Sioux, the Lakota, and they were the ones who oft-
56:52
Amanda Minervini: Little Bighorn.
56:53
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, Battle of the Little Bighorn.
56:55
They and the Comanches down in Texas and the Nez Perce in what is now
56:59
Yellowstone National Park, were sort of the three big horse cultures of
57:04
Native America that managed to keep the whites out for quite a long time.
57:10
And only when the whites really kind of industrialized the warfare did it shift.
57:18
And theâ¦
57:20
I know because I've, I've worked in Native America a fair degree.
57:23
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
57:23
Rupert Isaacson: I know that because of that the reservations that the Lakota
57:29
sit on, particularly the Rosebud, where I think you've just come back from-
57:34
Amanda Minervini: Yes
57:34
Rupert Isaacson: Are the most poor and deprived areas of the United States.
57:40
Wow.
57:40
That poverty is on a level there that one would normally associate
57:46
with very, very underserved areas of India or that sort of thing.
57:52
And most Americans don't see it because it's remote.
57:56
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, you don't go there
57:57
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and there are native
57:59
there are Amer- you know, Indian reservations which
58:02
are not like that at all.
58:03
Obviously, there's always poverty and so, but there are some that are, you knowâ¦
58:07
For example, like, you know, spent a lot of time on the Navajo reservation.
58:10
Very different story down there.
58:11
Very organized, very progressive, and so on and so on.
58:14
And very culturally intact.
58:16
The Pueblos, you know, the, in New Mexico, et cetera.
58:20
But be- partâ¦
58:22
You know, what happened to all of those groups that stood up really, really,
58:26
really hard to the to the whites, well, some of them barely exist anymore.
58:33
The Comanches, I used to-
58:34
Amanda Minervini: Vanished, yeah
58:35
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you will not find a Comanche in Texas.
58:37
They don't exist in Texas anymore.
58:39
You when you â¦ the Nez Perce have a, their foothold in Idaho, butâ¦
58:45
and they've got a casino now, but they were pretty much almost erased.
58:50
And then the Lakota.
58:52
And the Lakota, the history of the sort of deliberate creation of-
59:00
them as an underclass to basically make sure that they just didn't do
59:04
it again, they didn't organize again has- was really effectively done.
59:08
So it's one of the most troubled areas of America.
59:11
So what â¦ But they do have this thing called the s- Their warrior tradition,
59:16
their- their mounted tradition has never died, and the Sun Dance- Yeah â¦ is
59:21
known by a lot of people, and they know it because it's a ordeal that people
59:26
put themselves through physically where they allow themselves- Mm-hmm
59:29
pierced and dragged or drag themselves or drag things
59:35
Amanda Minervini: Or drag, Up a hill â¦ many, many buffalo skulls.
59:37
I've seen up to 21, multiples of seven.
59:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
59:41
Amanda Minervini: And it's a four days of 16 hour a day from sunrise to sunset
59:46
of dancing, singing, playing the drums, depending on which role you're on.
59:51
No drinking, no food.
59:54
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
59:54
Amanda Minervini: Men and women.
59:56
Rupert Isaacson: So-
59:57
Amanda Minervini: So medically impossible, but I can guarantee you
1:00:00
most of these people do not touch any water or food for the whole time Right.
1:00:04
Rupert Isaacson: So I believe this-
1:00:05
Amanda Minervini: You know, they do collapse and- â¦ because
1:00:07
Rupert Isaacson: they go into an altered state of consciousness, yeah.
1:00:08
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, and it's a group thing that wouldn't be possible alone.
1:00:11
You know, there are all these other- Indeed â¦ states there.
1:00:14
Indeed.
1:00:14
It's it just should not be possible.
1:00:16
Rupert Isaacson: So, so here's the questions.
1:00:16
Why are, were you there, and what
1:00:19
Amanda Minervini: was your role?
1:00:19
I know, good question.
1:00:21
What
1:00:21
Rupert Isaacson: was I
1:00:21
Amanda Minervini: doing there?
1:00:22
What
1:00:22
Rupert Isaacson: were you, what was Dr.
1:00:22
Minervini from Bari doing at the Sun Dance?
1:00:26
Amanda Minervini: E- excellent question.
1:00:27
There was a, a Sun Dancer from Puglia as well.
1:00:29
I was never able to talk to him because, you know, they cannot talk.
1:00:32
Puglia
1:00:32
Rupert Isaacson: being the area of Italy where-
1:00:34
Amanda Minervini: My region â¦ Bari
1:00:35
Rupert Isaacson: is, yeah.
1:00:35
Amanda Minervini: So I know that this guy was there, so I need to
1:00:38
investigate how in the world you end up dancing, because I wasn't dancing.
1:00:42
I was just a supporter.
1:00:44
But so basically, so there are a few things that coincided.
1:00:48
One is that at the moment I am working, because academically I also
1:00:51
work on human-animal relationship and, you know, representations.
1:00:55
So I a call for paper, by the way, dear colleagues representations and uses
1:00:59
of equines in sacre- sacred ceremonies and, you know, sacred circumstances.
1:01:05
So at one of the summits I met Misty Dawn, who is the daughter of Chief Marvin
1:01:13
Swallow, who's the guy who breeds and keeps the genealog- the genealogies and
1:01:19
rides the horses in these ceremonies
1:01:23
so completely by chance we started talking and she mentioned the horses,
1:01:27
that her father was the person.
1:01:29
Like, you know, what are the odds?
1:01:31
But it happened, and so we stayed in touch.
1:01:33
And then she said, "Hey, by the way, there is a sun dance in Colorado, but I'm gonna
1:01:37
go and dance at the one in South Dakota."
1:01:40
And then I had other friends who wanted to go, so we ended up meeting
1:01:44
in Colorado Springs, and I drove everybody up, and we went together.
1:01:48
And I just, you know, basically by chance I was invited and this is a very inclusive
1:01:55
Rupert Isaacson: sun dance.
1:01:55
It was- But getting invited to a sun dance is not something that normally happens.
1:01:58
People are notâ¦
1:01:59
outsiders are not often invited to sun
1:02:01
Amanda Minervini: dances.
1:02:01
Exactly.
1:02:02
It's usually very strict because in the 1800s in the effort from
1:02:06
the White colonizers to completely crack all the indigenous cultures,
1:02:10
the sun dances were very forbidden and there were serious consequences
1:02:15
if they were caught practicing.
1:02:17
So they became extremely secretive, and they don't even tell you exactly
1:02:22
where they would happen until the '70s when Leonard Crow Dog, Lakota
1:02:28
medicine man decided that in order to, you know, react against the
1:02:31
government the different tribes had to unite, and so be more inclusive.
1:02:37
So first of all, he created a dance that was open to other
1:02:40
tribes, not ex- exclusively Lakota, because it was so exclusive.
1:02:45
And then he created this place Crow Dog's Paradise in Rosebud, South Dakota,
1:02:50
where the dance happens every year.
1:02:52
And White people are allowed.
1:02:55
There were White people dancing, and it was his decision to make it inclusive
1:02:59
with you know, lots of resistance.
1:03:01
And I do understand if they want to do dances that are not open at all, I think
1:03:05
it's completely their right and they should be doing it, but there is value
1:03:09
in at least having one where people who are interested can collaborate and
1:03:14
support and, you know, make donations.
1:03:15
And also you support emotionally the dancers.
1:03:19
There are the cedar women who you know, burn cedar to support emotionally
1:03:24
and spiritually the dancers.
1:03:26
The dancers are men and women.
1:03:28
Misty was dancing for four days and, you know, it's, it's incredibly exhausting in
1:03:34
a marvelous way, even just being there.
1:03:36
And I didn't dance more than eight hours a day, and I was like so done.
1:03:42
But, The people do it, and there are so many people who are willing to
1:03:45
sacrifice so much including white people.
1:03:48
And so I think if more people were able and willing to make some
1:03:51
sacrifices, even less than this one, we would have a better world
1:03:57
Rupert Isaacson: What is the point of the self-torture that goes with it?
1:04:03
Because there are so many expressions of the shamanic-
1:04:07
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
1:04:08
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: in the world.
1:04:09
Of course one can understand a test of endurance, particularly if you're a
1:04:14
Amanda Minervini: No, but it's the offering.
1:04:15
Yeah.
1:04:16
But- So have you read Rene Girard, The Sacred, Violence and The Sacred?
1:04:20
It's a great book that I studied
1:04:23
Rupert Isaacson: in
1:04:23
Amanda Minervini: my- I
1:04:23
Rupert Isaacson: haven't, but I've, I'm asking this question
1:04:25
rhetorically because I haveâ¦
1:04:27
I know many Lakota and I-
1:04:30
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
1:04:31
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: do understand it.
1:04:32
However, I want to hear it from you.
1:04:34
What do you- Oh â¦ what is the point of sticking stuff into your back and
1:04:40
your chest, and hanging back from a tree, or dragging buffalo skulls, or
1:04:45
letting yourself be dragged by a horse?
1:04:47
Why?
1:04:50
Amanda Minervini: It's the sacrifice with blood that's described in in
1:04:53
a lot of literature about religion.
1:04:55
So it's this controlled violence that's an offering, which is a prayer.
1:04:59
It's an offering to the gods, 'cause you're praying for something.
1:05:03
So in one way it's a, a level of exchange there.
1:05:07
But I also think there is an aspect of endurance of pain that
1:05:12
has to do with some societies.
1:05:14
But, you know, like when I was at the Sun Dance, I am culturally Catholic.
1:05:18
I was raised in Italy for 25 years.
1:05:20
My family is Catholic and they practice.
1:05:23
You know, they-
1:05:24
Rupert Isaacson: So you all used to flagellate yourselves regularly
1:05:25
up the street on a Sunday.
1:05:26
Amanda Minervini: Basically.
1:05:27
Yes.
1:05:27
But then we have a big meal and everything is okay.
1:05:30
'Cause you know, it's actually, there are some structural
1:05:33
components that are very similar.
1:05:34
Yeah.
1:05:34
For instance, they go out and cut a tree, a sacred tree, and
1:05:38
they dress it with cloths with tobacco, then that's the prayer.
1:05:40
So we're dressing a tree that looks like a Christmas tree for Catholics.
1:05:45
And they carry this tree, you know, men do, and it looks
1:05:48
like they're carrying a cross.
1:05:50
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:05:51
Amanda Minervini: And then the kids have gifts during the ceremony on the last day.
1:05:56
So just like Christmas trees for us.
1:05:59
And the sacrifice of Christ is always the flesh and the blood.
1:06:03
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:06:04
Amanda Minervini: So it's minchah and sebak as described in the Old Bible,
1:06:08
where one is a off- dry offering, like you have something that doesn't in-
1:06:15
involve spilling blood, and the other one is more powerful because it is blood.
1:06:20
They're typically in Christian ceremonies is blood from animals, which, you
1:06:27
know, obviously still happens in various ways, the lamb and so on.
1:06:32
But for them, you know, it's their own.
1:06:36
So, which is probably the strongest, most powerful offering you can make.
1:06:41
Rupert Isaacson: And for the people who don't understand the Sun Dance, the
1:06:45
Let's just-
1:06:46
Amanda Minervini: I don't know that I do, but this is the
1:06:48
Rupert Isaacson: idea.
1:06:48
You understand it a little bit more than they do 'cause you've been there.
1:06:51
So, when the person is dancing and they're offering their blood and their
1:06:56
flesh and their pain, are they doing that as an act of penitence, "I wish
1:07:06
to be redeemed from bad thing that I did or thought," or are they saying,
1:07:15
"I offer my, the energy, the emotional energy of my pain to the general good.
1:07:25
I suffer like Christab- you know, Christ-like for
1:07:29
those who are not dancing"?
1:07:32
Or are they saying, It's really just who's going to be the most kickass warrior,
1:07:40
or is it a little bit all of the above?
1:07:44
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:07:44
So I read in an article on the Sun Dance, on the history of the Sun Dance,
1:07:49
that originally there was no penance.
1:07:53
It was a act of valor for the community, for, you know, also
1:07:58
to show how strong you can be.
1:08:00
But then with the contamination of Christian thought, which, you know,
1:08:04
obviously entered those worlds as well, the penance became a component.
1:08:10
So I think that nowadays all of the above, and people may have-
1:08:14
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:08:14
Amanda Minervini: slightly different motivations and also maybe a mix of many.
1:08:18
What I heard from some people, and remember, you know, the dancers cannot
1:08:22
talk during the four days, so you can talk before or after with some of them
1:08:27
for some of them it's for the community.
1:08:30
But also for a better world in general for everybody.
1:08:36
So it's not personal.
1:08:38
I, I see a lot of collective.
1:08:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:08:42
Amanda Minervini: Which is beautiful, and we do, do, we do really need a lot
1:08:45
more of collective things, especially in the so- in the US society right now.
1:08:50
But I'm not- Yeah â¦ saying that people should go and, you know,
1:08:52
necessarily spill blood, but, you know, there are o- other ways.
1:08:55
Yeah.
1:08:57
Rupert Isaacson: Let's not go there.
1:08:58
And-
1:09:00
Amanda Minervini: Just to be clear, you know?
1:09:01
Rupert Isaacson: When I've been at the trance fires of the Bushmen- Mm-hmm
1:09:06
â¦ the Khoisan in, down in Southern Africa in the Kalahari, the healer will
1:09:13
often bleed- Mm-hmm â¦ when they're spontaneously from the mouth, from the
1:09:18
nose, I've seen it from the eyes when they take on the pain of somebody that they
1:09:25
It is not â¦ It doesn't happen every single time, but it can happen.
1:09:28
But basically the, the healer suffers on your behalf if you â¦ And for you, the
1:09:35
supplicant, if you like, the patient the, the experience is, is, is very peaceful
1:09:40
because y- you have a sense of â¦ You feel a great sense of calm come over you.
1:09:45
You're being sort of loved and taken care of, and this thing's being taken- Mm-hmm
1:09:48
out of you, and you sort of see it pass dramatically through this other person.
1:09:52
You've spent time in the Amazon and explored the ayahuasca tradition, which
1:09:59
can be quite violent for the person doing it, but that person is hopefully,
1:10:04
if it's done well, you know, guided and taken care of and so forth by the
1:10:09
trained shaman who, you know, does it.
1:10:11
And then all these different traditions have their different ways.
1:10:14
And when I was with the h- sort of original horse shamans in Mongolia-
1:10:19
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
1:10:19
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: with my son looking for healing- Mm â¦ it was a mixture.
1:10:23
It was a mixture of them suffering a bit on your behalf, but also you had to
1:10:30
suffer too to let â¦ as a catharsis.
1:10:33
So I got whipped.
1:10:35
Mm-hmm â¦ and I remember seeing this guy coming towards me with the horse
1:10:39
whip the, you know, the raw hide thing.
1:10:42
And he's in trance and so on, and I'm like, "He's gonna whip me, isn't he?"
1:10:45
And my guide is like maybe a little bit.
1:10:48
It's important not cry out."
1:10:50
I'm like, "Oh, God.
1:10:51
All right.
1:10:52
Here we go."
1:10:52
And my God, did it hurt.
1:10:54
I got one, like, right across-
1:10:56
Amanda Minervini: Oh â¦ the
1:10:57
Rupert Isaacson: groin, and left my body for a second and then came back.
1:11:01
But what was interesting just they certainly didn't do that to, to Rowan.
1:11:05
It was, it was to me, the parent, and my â¦ To, the catharsis
1:11:09
of whatever negative energy.
1:11:11
And- There was no sense at any point that there was anything abusive going on
1:11:18
towards me or that i- I was absolutely
1:11:20
It, it was clear, clear that these people were just doing what they could to help.
1:11:24
And what was very interesting too was that immediately through and after that
1:11:27
ceremony, Rowan made his first friend during that ceremony that he ever made,
1:11:31
that he ever reached out to another child.
1:11:33
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:11:33
Rupert Isaacson: And I could feel this catharsis.
1:11:36
Then when we went up to the reindeer people, different again.
1:11:40
Much more like the bushmen, much more the shaman taking it on for you.
1:11:44
So it's just interesting to me that we have all of these different traditions,
1:11:47
but the ones that come out of the horse tribes often seem to have some element
1:11:53
of endurance and test and suffering- Mm
1:11:58
for the person engaged in the ceremony, and I wonder why that is.
1:12:04
You know, because horses do challenge us.
1:12:06
Or, you know, you've got to take a lot of risk to get on a horse.
1:12:09
You've got to be prepared with the fact that you might die every time you get on a
1:12:13
horse or every time you're around horses.
1:12:15
Uh-huh.
1:12:16
What, do â¦ I just want to speculate a little bit here.
1:12:18
Yeah.
1:12:19
What, what do you think is going on with this, that, that, that
1:12:22
it's so good for us as humans?
1:12:24
It does seem to bring out, as you said, valor.
1:12:26
That's a good word.
1:12:28
But that we do, just as we ask the horses to go past the rubbish bins or
1:12:34
accept us on their back or go into battle or whatever, we have to accept that
1:12:38
we're terrified when we're up there.
1:12:40
Anyone who's taken enough injuries on a horse-
1:12:43
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
1:12:43
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: knows what can happen.
1:12:45
Yet we, we do it.
1:12:47
We, we continue to do it a- as a sort of act of love.
1:12:51
What are your th- th- â¦ Talk to me about this, Dr.,
1:12:54
Dr.
1:12:54
Minari.
1:12:54
Amanda Minervini: Well, it's, I am slightly outside of my
1:12:58
field of specialization, so this is more speculation.
1:13:03
But I think there is a level of expenditure and gift that we as
1:13:08
humans have been doing to keep going as a community of people.
1:13:13
Because we realized pretty early on that despite the fact that some of us may
1:13:17
be on the spectrum and interested in different things, if we want to survive
1:13:21
as a species, we have to collaborate.
1:13:24
So the blood, the suffering is also an exasperation of, you know, many acts
1:13:30
of self-sacrifice that we have to do on a daily basis for our children, for
1:13:35
our partners, for our animals, at work.
1:13:38
And so it just ma- maybe, maybe a paroxystic manifestation of something and
1:13:44
then, you know, everything else compared in everyday life seems so easy and tame.
1:13:52
With horses specifically, I, I don't know.
1:13:56
I think that the horses have-
1:14:00
A really central role in the Sundance, but it's also good
1:14:03
for them that it's very short.
1:14:06
They only go in and out for a few minutes.
1:14:08
So when you compare with what the humans are going through, you know,
1:14:10
for the first time you want to think, "Oh, well, the horses have
1:14:15
a better deal in this ceremony."
1:14:19
What do you think?
1:14:21
Rupert Isaacson: Me?
1:14:22
Well, we don't ask the horses to go through the suffering unless we're-
1:14:27
Amanda Minervini: No, only to go through the- Only when we're-
1:14:29
extreme chaos, which-
1:14:30
Rupert Isaacson: If we're ri- if we're riding them badly.
1:14:32
But horses- One of the things I find so interesting about horses is horses are
1:14:38
really okay with that kind of chaos, and I think â¦ I've often asked myself why.
1:14:45
I mean, not, not the first time they encounter it, but it really doesn't
1:14:48
take a horse long to accept, "Yeah, I can take explosions going off.
1:14:53
Iâ¦"
1:14:53
And, you know, I used to â¦ I grew up in the hunting field, where you're just
1:14:58
encountering funky stuff all the time.
1:15:00
You know, you might have to- Mm â¦ ride through the McDonald's
1:15:03
parking lot and jump onto the freeway and then jump out, and the horse is
1:15:07
like, "Yeah, yeah, I can do that."
1:15:09
And then I also, through, through university, worked a lot on movies
1:15:14
with horses, and it wasn't- Mm-hmm
1:15:16
that difficult to get horses used to battles, explosions, fire.
1:15:20
You know- Mm-hmm â¦ it, it was just a habituation process, and then
1:15:23
they'd stand there calmly eating, you know, while stuff was going
1:15:25
on, and they'd actually enjoy it.
1:15:26
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
1:15:27
Rupert Isaacson: They'd, they'd, they'd be like, "Ooh," when they came
1:15:28
off their water, watering trough.
1:15:29
Amanda Minervini: And now, now we go.
1:15:30
Rupert Isaacson: But they're, they're â¦ You know, so- Yeah â¦ and I've often
1:15:33
asked myself, "Well, you know, why are horses kind of okay with this?"
1:15:35
And I suppose maybe they're that interesting â¦ They, they are a prey
1:15:42
species, and they will run away from danger, but they also will fight, and they
1:15:47
also will stand and investigate, and they are curious and playful in a way that- Mm
1:15:53
like, say, deer are not.
1:15:54
Like, you know, even domesticated deer, like reindeer, which I've been around
1:16:00
quite a lot of domesticated reindeer.
1:16:02
They're â¦ I mean, they're cool when there's stuff going on, but they're not
1:16:06
gonna, like, actively go seek it out and want to kind of- Mm â¦ mess with it.
1:16:09
You wouldn't go bull fighting on the back of a deer, right?
1:16:12
No.
1:16:12
But a bull-fighting horse wants to mess with that bull.
1:16:17
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, and we selected them, right?
1:16:20
Rupert Isaacson: They, they have this sense of mischief, and
1:16:22
they can be quite aggressive.
1:16:24
And they're highly intelligent.
1:16:27
So there's something in those chaotic situations that's fulfilling
1:16:32
for a horse, or those horse-human situations could never have evolved.
1:16:37
Mm-hmm â¦ it just wouldn't have happened.
1:16:38
So-
1:16:41
Well, I think horses enjoy the challenge.
1:16:44
Provided things are made gradually safe for them, they
1:16:47
can actually take lack of safety.
1:16:49
So if you think about war horses in previous generations, they would
1:16:54
take injuries, and they wouldn't have to be forced- Yeah â¦ to
1:16:59
go back into that situation.
1:17:01
They'd go back with enthusiasm.
1:17:03
You cannot force a horse to go against fear because he's just stronger than you.
1:17:08
So,
1:17:11
they bring out valor perhaps because they have valor.
1:17:15
And I think anyone who watches a horse go through that process of
1:17:21
being afraid and getting over its fear, given that the horse really
1:17:25
doesn't understand that that rubbish bin might not contain a lion, or the-
1:17:32
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
1:17:33
Rupert Isaacson: plastic bag, you know, blowing across the street might
1:17:35
not be some sort of predator, and truly they don't, and if, if they
1:17:39
didn't react to it that way, their species wouldn't survive, right?
1:17:42
They need to keep that fear response.
1:17:45
So to, to watch them get over that through some sort of neuroplasticity and innate-
1:17:53
I, I can't use these bad words on YouTube because they'll demonetize me.
1:17:58
But- Mm â¦ m and effery, let's say.
1:18:01
The first word begins with mother, and the second part of it, b- rhyme-
1:18:05
Amanda Minervini: Okay, I got it
1:18:06
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: duck.
1:18:06
Amanda Minervini: With me.
1:18:07
Just a- And
1:18:07
Rupert Isaacson: then you add a ry onto the end of it.
1:18:09
It's definitely there.
1:18:11
And so, you know, even, like, the concept of chivalry in humans, l- it's
1:18:17
all to do with the mounted person.
1:18:19
Largely, I think comes from emulating horses.
1:18:22
Mm-hmm.
1:18:24
Be as brave as your horse.
1:18:26
So- Yeah.
1:18:29
I th- th- that is perhaps why equine therapy, one of the reasons why it's so
1:18:34
effective for people, because people, I think, do learn courage, and they learn
1:18:44
how even when you have a pretty rigid fear-based, amygdala-based,
1:18:51
cortisol-based- Yeah â¦ way of interacting with things that
1:18:54
are new- Yeah â¦ yet you can.
1:18:58
And more than that, you have to.
1:18:59
Because if you can't do that, you'll never, if you're a
1:19:02
horse, go and get new grazing.
1:19:03
And if you're a human, you just cannot survive on planet Earth
1:19:06
unless you can cope with new stuff.
1:19:09
So I, I wonder w- i- if, if, if the, the sort of endurance type, almost
1:19:16
pain type rituals that test courage, they test to the limit of endurance
1:19:22
that you see in these shamanic ceremonies of horse tribes- Mm-hmm
1:19:27
a- a- have all evolved a- across the horse cultures of the world a
1:19:31
bit because, because of this maybe.
1:19:34
And does this- Well- â¦ pop off in a small way, in an
1:19:37
indirect way in the therapy work?
1:19:40
Amanda Minervini: Probably.
1:19:40
You know, I was very honored to spend two days with these
1:19:44
ceremony horses at the Sundance.
1:19:47
They show up two days out of four.
1:19:50
And I can confirm, I noticed, you know, what you said, that there
1:19:53
is a great connection with the humans who then take them out,
1:19:57
take care of them the whole year.
1:20:00
And they're very chill, they eat, they're fine.
1:20:02
And then when they know that it's time to go, they get heightened.
1:20:05
Like, they want to go, and they know that the task is coming, and they feel- Yeah
1:20:08
probably proud- Yeah â¦ about it.
1:20:10
And, and they are also bred and selected for this purpose.
1:20:15
So you know that not any horse could do it, but they, medicine
1:20:18
paint horses, they will do it.
1:20:20
And then also, you know, horses are fantastic herd animals.
1:20:25
We should always consider that they are herd animals
1:20:27
like we are also herd animals.
1:20:30
Mm-hmm.
1:20:30
And so the fact that we're both functioning in a herd, that we have to
1:20:34
give and show in order to be part of the herd- Mm-hmm â¦ means that we will
1:20:39
go for expenditures and sacrifices- Mm â¦ because we want to stay in the herd.
1:20:45
And- Mm â¦ so I think they're so collaborative also because of that.
1:20:48
And,
1:20:49
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:20:49
â¦ Amanda Minervini: they are, they, they are teaching us lessons in, you
1:20:52
know, being good members of a herd.
1:20:56
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
1:20:59
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
1:21:04
bit about the old master system.
1:21:07
of dressage training.
1:21:08
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:21:17
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:21:23
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:21:30
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:21:33
Intrigued?
1:21:34
Like to know more?
1:21:35
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:21:40
Check out the free introduction course.
1:21:42
Take it from there.
1:21:43
Mm.
1:21:44
Mm, mm.
1:21:45
Amanda Minervini: Or tribe, as you would say.
1:21:47
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:21:47
Yeah.
1:21:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:21:48
No, I think, I think you've â¦ I think you've, you, you've nailed it.
1:21:52
And this brings us to the whole idea of the sacred, you know,
1:21:57
within the work that we do.
1:21:59
I think everyone who-
1:22:03
is involved in the equine-assisted thing knows that it is a sacred thing.
1:22:09
There is no doubt that all of us, I think, routinely experience frankly miraculous
1:22:19
seeming transformations in humans, in horses, in interactions in nature when
1:22:25
you're out doing this kind of work.
1:22:27
Like, I've had encounters with nature while, say, riding with autistic children-
1:22:34
Mm â¦ that I haven't had when I haven't.
1:22:37
I'm thinking about, like, times I've surprised whole packs of coyotes lying
1:22:44
down in the grass in Texas who I've never encountered that ever riding by myself.
1:22:53
I've been riding with autistic kids, and quite a few times they've let
1:22:56
me ride right up on them before they get up and, and go away.
1:23:00
Mm-hmm.
1:23:00
Something else is going on, you know?
1:23:02
Let alone the interactions that happen with the horses, let alone the reactions
1:23:06
that happen with owls and birds.
1:23:07
You know, our great friend, our mutual friend, Lianna Tank, you know,
1:23:11
who does that amazing work up in Michigan- Yeah â¦ she does with it.
1:23:14
Amanda Minervini: She really does.
1:23:14
Rupert Isaacson: She's always getting visited by these huge barred owls
1:23:18
that you- Ah â¦ almost never see in daylight, and she's like, "There's
1:23:20
another one," and she's just sending me, you know, pictures of them all the time.
1:23:23
Mm-hmm.
1:23:24
You know, it, the miraculous shows up, and then, you know, horses do these
1:23:31
things that we normally don't see them do unless they're in that situation.
1:23:37
I, you know, I can think of the, you know, the extreme modifications of
1:23:40
behavior that they will spontaneously do.
1:23:43
I remember my horse Clue with this child that had drowned- Mm-hmm â¦ and
1:23:47
who seemed to be vegetal, and Clue saw this child in the wheelchair, left
1:23:55
the herd, came all the way across the field to this child, sniffed him all
1:23:58
over, and then licked him all over.
1:24:01
Amanda Minervini: Wow.
1:24:02
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
1:24:04
We don't know, and the, and the child- Mm â¦ did become responsive.
1:24:08
What was going on in Clue's brain?
1:24:09
We don't know.
1:24:11
But we know sure as hell that if that kid hadn't been there, he
1:24:13
wouldn't have shown that behavior.
1:24:15
So we all see the sacred all the time, and yet we don't pay much attention to it.
1:24:21
And I know that there's quite a lot of, you know, Christian therapeutic
1:24:25
riding organizations in, in the USA.
1:24:27
Amanda Minervini: Wow.
1:24:30
Rupert Isaacson: In a more generally sacred way, I wonder if we should
1:24:34
be paying more attention to this.
1:24:37
I know I certainly pray a lot when I'm in the course of my sessions because
1:24:42
I'm looking for guidance, right?
1:24:44
I'm dealing with people that are- Mm-hmm â¦ not verbal.
1:24:46
I- please guide me some, you know.
1:24:48
So I pray.
1:24:49
Yeah.
1:24:49
I pray for guidance.
1:24:50
But the more we look at these things, the more I wonder if
1:24:53
we should be really much more
1:24:58
mu- much more deliberate about it.
1:25:00
You know, obviously I was when I went on those journeys on horseback with
1:25:03
my son, you know, that are the books The Horse Boy and The Long Ride Home.
1:25:07
But do we bring it into our daily practice enough?
1:25:12
And if we don't, how might we?
1:25:16
What do you think?
1:25:17
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
1:25:18
Well, you made me think of me being culturally Catholic and not being
1:25:22
somebody who prays, but I did write a book about Saint Francis of Assisi,
1:25:26
the patron saint of Italy, who's also recognized for his incredible connection
1:25:32
with animals and all things created.
1:25:34
Also, the first recognized text in Italian literature, The Canticle of
1:25:39
Creatures where Saint Francis said that we are connected to everything created
1:25:45
because everything is a brother or sister because we come from the same creator.
1:25:49
So, that could be religious, but it can also be a cultural way of
1:25:53
considering that without these connections we really wouldn't be alive.
1:25:58
And it's not exactly that everything is connected to everything else, but it's
1:26:02
true that we live in ecosystems that are connected and chained to each other.
1:26:07
So one thing that I like to discuss with my students is that, so without
1:26:12
all the microbiome that we carry around all over our bodies and the gut
1:26:17
microbiome, we wouldn't even be alive.
1:26:20
So we're working, we're walking around on this earth thinking we're individuals,
1:26:25
and in some cultures individuality is stronger, but we aren't at all.
1:26:30
We are like walking holobiomes that then connect
1:26:36
Rupert Isaacson: and- Yeah, we're like walk, walking beehives.
1:26:37
Yeah.
1:26:39
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
1:26:39
So you know, this is an illusion of individuality, but there is no such thing.
1:26:43
And actually swarmy, swarmy beings are a lot more aware that they are together
1:26:49
connected and, you know, they wo- they are able to fly around harmoniously.
1:26:52
How do we- they even coordinate at that level so that, you know, you have
1:26:56
a swarm of bees or a swarm of birds.
1:26:59
They're so intelligent, and really we do need to look more at nature and
1:27:05
different creatures as an example of becoming how to be better humans and
1:27:10
better humans in this world right now
1:27:14
Rupert Isaacson: I, I wonder for me it's, it's more paradoxical or
1:27:17
more ambivalent in that I think that we are individuals and we are
1:27:21
also collections of individuals.
1:27:23
I think both of those things can exist simultaneously.
1:27:26
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:27:27
Rupert Isaacson: That, that we can be a collection of bazillions of individual
1:27:32
gut bacteria perhaps each one's called Bill and one's called Bob, and then
1:27:36
there's Dave, and then there's Tracy, and then there's Amanda, and then
1:27:39
there's Rue, and they're all, we're all living down there in Amanda's
1:27:43
gut.
1:27:44
And perhaps we all have a personality and we meet down the pub in her duodenum, you
1:27:48
know, every Friday and play cards, butâ¦
1:27:50
And we don't l- and we play football against the ones in
1:27:53
her large intestine, you know.
1:27:56
That could be true, and at the same time I don't see how that wouldn't
1:28:01
also there couldn't be a parallel truth that Amanda is still Amanda,
1:28:04
even if I'm an individual that lives in Amanda's gut with other, you know.
1:28:08
And that, A- Amanda could be a, an expression of all of us, you know?
1:28:14
I'm just-
1:28:14
Amanda Minervini: But in a, in a porous way because, you know, in one
1:28:18
way we are very relational, so as human beings we can appear to have
1:28:24
different personalities in different circumstances with different people.
1:28:26
This is something that Italian culture has very strongly also because one of the
1:28:30
Italian authors called Pirandello wrote a novel called Uno Nessuno Centomila,
1:28:35
One Nobody 100,000, meaning that people wear all these masks, but it's also
1:28:40
like the reality that it's projected upon us by people and circumstances.
1:28:45
And also there are new studies on the mind-brain axis.
1:28:49
It started because patients who underwent an intestinal resection
1:28:54
changed their character completely.
1:28:57
And so basically when you say we are what we eat, it's actually profoundly
1:29:02
medically true- Yeah â¦ and we're only starting now to understand that.
1:29:06
So if I change my diet entirely or if, yeah, my ma- gut microbiome should
1:29:12
have a, you know, revolution and, you know, become suddenly very weak or very
1:29:17
different, I think I may also maybe my moods or my personality may be affected.
1:29:24
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, without a doubt.
1:29:24
So, yeah.
1:29:25
I mean, I, I think we see, we see this in ourselves all the time.
1:29:27
Like for example when I go off the beer, which I usually do
1:29:31
for- Mm â¦ a few months a year.
1:29:33
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:29:34
Rupert Isaacson: What I do is I effectively reduce the inflammation
1:29:37
in my system, and I notice that my thoughts are less inflamed.
1:29:43
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:29:44
Rupert Isaacson: I love beer.
1:29:44
And
1:29:45
Amanda Minervini: probably your behavior and your reactions.
1:29:46
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and it, and it reflects in my personality and
1:29:48
I'm probably nicer to be around.
1:29:50
But-
1:29:53
The core of me
1:30:01
is still there even if I change with the seasons.
1:30:05
Like, you know, if a tree is full of its summer foliage, or it stands bare for the
1:30:10
winter, or it's budding, or it's autumnal, those are radically different moods
1:30:20
But it's still the same tree.
1:30:22
And the tree is also composed of many things.
1:30:26
But I guess now we're sort of s- straying into that area of consciousness then.
1:30:32
So if all of those little â¦ If, if Dave, and Gianni, and Amanda, and Kim,
1:30:40
and all the other gut bacteria that are living inside the bigger Amanda, are
1:30:45
playing football against each other every Saturday that's when you have diarrhea.
1:30:50
Are being affected, becoming better Giannis, and better Dorises, and better
1:30:57
Daves when Amanda drinks less beer, and become m- more mischievous when she
1:31:06
does or whatever, but they're still who they are and you're still who you are,
1:31:10
rather like the tree going â¦ now but, but I think what's interesting with
1:31:15
that, and this brings us down to say what was going on with my horse Clue
1:31:20
when he came over to lick that kid- Mm.
1:31:22
Mm â¦ or what was going on with that kid
1:31:26
Back then when that happened, that was about 16 years ago
1:31:30
Amanda Minervini: Mm.
1:31:30
Rupert Isaacson: My thought I think would've been that child
1:31:34
was perhaps not so conscious.
1:31:37
Now I think completely differently, and I think that that child is completely
1:31:42
conscious because consciousness is â¦ I no longer believe that
1:31:46
consciousness is something that is formulated by the human brain.
1:31:51
I, I now very strongly believe that
1:31:54
Amanda Minervini: That there is a consciousness.
1:31:56
Rupert Isaacson: That there is consciousness, and that we are all
1:31:58
expressions- Mm-hmm â¦ of consciousness.
1:32:00
And I actually find that-
1:32:01
Amanda Minervini: Well, which- â¦ thought very- â¦ doesn't regard only humans,
1:32:03
but lots of other creatures too
1:32:05
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
1:32:06
Although Dave, and Gianni, and all those little creatures down in your
1:32:10
gut biome, if they're conscious or-
1:32:12
Amanda Minervini: And, and Clu who performed a medical procedure on that boy
1:32:17
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
1:32:17
Exactly.
1:32:18
Yeah.
1:32:18
And that boy who somehow reached out to Clu
1:32:23
To what degree of consciousness, I don't know.
1:32:26
But the, there was an interaction.
1:32:29
It wasn't just one way.
1:32:31
Amanda Minervini: Was the Libra, yeah.
1:32:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:32:32
You're familiar, I'm presuming, with the work of Rupert Sheldrake, Dr.
1:32:35
Rupert Sheldrake?
1:32:37
Amanda Minervini: Somewhat, yes.
1:32:37
I read some parts.
1:32:40
Rupert Isaacson: So for those who aren't familiar, he was an eminent
1:32:45
physicist who had his career destroyed pretty much for coming up with
1:32:50
this idea of morphic re-resonance.
1:32:52
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:32:53
Rupert Isaacson: That there seems to be a field in which, say for example,
1:32:58
and they did this with rats initially.
1:33:00
You could have a number of rats having to get their way through a maze, and
1:33:05
each generation of rats got better.
1:33:09
So that was seemed to be genetic memory, but then what surprised them was that rats
1:33:14
in labs in other countries at the same time unrelated started getting better.
1:33:19
Mm-hmm.
1:33:19
And so we talk about things like zeitgeists and ideas of the time, and
1:33:23
so it seems that there's a mor- that there's a morphic resonance in the field
1:33:26
where things can change and shift if enough people begin to have the same
1:33:30
ideas or enough animals begin to have the same ideas or enough trees begin toâ¦
1:33:34
And it can be positive or negative.
1:33:36
It can be susceptibilities to things or it can be skillsets and whatever.
1:33:41
And that does make sense to me.
1:33:43
And so when, when you'reâ¦
1:33:46
Let's assume that there's a, a general conscious field.
1:33:49
So you're there with your two horses and your minis, which we haven't
1:33:53
talked about, and you're there with your students and your clients-
1:34:00
How do you feel that this general consciousness
1:34:06
affects the work
1:34:11
Amanda Minervini: Wow, what a question.
1:34:13
So I am an academic, so I'm trained to be very analytical.
1:34:20
Rupert Isaacson: So
1:34:20
Amanda Minervini: it's- But then-
1:34:21
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: children.
1:34:23
Amanda Minervini: E- exactly, and actually we're seeing more and more
1:34:26
today that the so-called Western science is one mode of investigating the world.
1:34:31
It's not the only, and that more and more scientists such as Monica Gagliano,
1:34:37
formidable Italian botanist biologist, who wrote Thus Spoke the Plant, who
1:34:43
became an international bestseller.
1:34:45
Rupert Isaacson: Monica Gagliano.
1:34:47
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, G-A-
1:34:48
Rupert Isaacson: Thus Spake the Plant.
1:34:50
Amanda Minervini: Actually Thus Spoke.
1:34:51
It's, Thus
1:34:51
Rupert Isaacson: Spoke the Plant.
1:34:52
I'm writing it
1:34:53
Amanda Minervini: down.
1:34:54
Yeah.
1:34:54
Thus Spoke- I know there is the Nietzsche translation thing going on
1:34:57
there, but the, she didn't go for it.
1:35:00
So she's talking about plant intelligence and she also did various
1:35:04
discoveries thanks to the fact that she was working in Australia and she w-
1:35:09
learned from indigenous people there.
1:35:12
And you know, my yachka in the Amazon, he's a trained pharmacist, but he's also
1:35:17
the yachka, what people call shaman.
1:35:21
Say what a
1:35:21
Rupert Isaacson: yachka is.
1:35:21
People don't know these terminologies.
1:35:22
Amanda Minervini: What people would call a shaman, quote-unquote, but it's the
1:35:26
local definition that they have for their healers who know plant medicine- Got it
1:35:30
and they know everything about the plants.
1:35:34
So everybody there can have a PhD in botany.
1:35:37
But so what I'm saying is that we are seeing Western science more and more
1:35:40
becoming better as they approach the fact that indigenous knowledge has a
1:35:45
lot to teach Western science, and vice versa, that it could be a very fruitful
1:35:50
contamination and collaboration.
1:35:52
So I would put myself in this field of, you know, inquiry that's
1:35:57
academically trained, but I am open to other ideas because I don't think
1:36:01
I have to judge everything and I don't think I can understand everything,
1:36:04
and there is a benefit of the doubt.
1:36:06
So is there a collective consciousness?
1:36:09
I don't know, but it's possible, and many people believe it, so who
1:36:13
am I to say that it's not true?
1:36:16
And when I'm working, for sure I study, I work hard.
1:36:20
I don't, I didn't grow up being very self-confident and not very nurtured,
1:36:28
so I have this amount of self-doubt that's been devouring me for years,
1:36:32
but that may became my superpower because I really learn and I learn from
1:36:36
everyone, and I ask questions all the time to the point of being annoying.
1:36:40
But then, you know, when I'm doing things, it's like everything congeals,
1:36:44
but there is also a gut feeling of the moment, like when you're working with
1:36:48
animals, it's the only way that it can be.
1:36:50
You cannot sit down and run the data.
1:36:54
But I sort of run the data in my mind and I ha- I know that I have
1:36:58
a connection with this horse that's very strong, and he has it with me.
1:37:03
There have been moments And I have shocked friends who have seen this, where he was
1:37:09
communicating with me from a distance
1:37:15
And people say all the time, "Oh, I was just thinking about you.
1:37:18
I was about to call you."
1:37:19
So these things happen maybe coincidentally or maybe there is, there
1:37:23
are ways in which people were making phone calls before the phone was invented.
1:37:28
I don't know.
1:37:29
Rupert Sheldrake says it's possible.
1:37:33
The sense of being stared at that he discusses in his book,
1:37:37
we still don't understand exactly how it can be, but it happens.
1:37:40
Almost everybody has had an experience where you feel like you're being stared.
1:37:44
You turn around and somebody stare- staring at you.
1:37:46
So it cannot be a coincidence only.
1:37:49
And well, I don't know, maybe when people didn't know what electricity was, they
1:37:53
thought it was some magic weird thing, and now we, we have electric engineers.
1:37:58
Maybe one day we'll have consciousness engineers.
1:38:03
Rupert Isaacson: Or perhaps we've always had consciousness engine-
1:38:05
engineers, but unfortunately the church put most of them to death in,
1:38:10
Amanda Minervini: Yes
1:38:10
Rupert Isaacson: culture over about- Yes â¦ a thousand years.
1:38:13
So when we go out to places like the Kalahari or the Amazon and we
1:38:17
observe people behaving in this way, we have, we are either skeptical
1:38:21
or, or we consider it a miracle.
1:38:23
And they say, "Well, this is kind of what we do."
1:38:25
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
1:38:26
Yes, and I agree that the church has like, you know, tried to eradicate
1:38:29
Because Italy also, and Southern Italy especially, had a huge, very deep
1:38:34
tradition of so-called magic and rituals.
1:38:37
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:38:37
Amanda Minervini: Look at Ernesto de Martino, Lettere dei Morti
1:38:40
is one of the, you know, most famous anthropological books.
1:38:43
And people still practice magic, but it has to be very secret because the
1:38:47
church doesn't want that to happen.
1:38:49
So we just have to be rediscovering things and understanding how people
1:38:53
were going about certain problems.
1:38:58
Rupert Isaacson: When w- The Horse Boy movie was first out, I gave a, a
1:39:05
little private showing to my family.
1:39:08
And that included my uncle Peter- Yes â¦ Isaacson, right, who-
1:39:13
Amanda Minervini: The doctor
1:39:15
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: Dr.
1:39:15
Peter Isaacson, eminent, what's Rupert your brain?
1:39:20
Amanda Minervini: Was he a cardiologist, pneumologist?
1:39:22
Rupert Isaacson: No, no, no, he, â¦ Oh, gosh.
1:39:24
When you open dead people up, come on.
1:39:26
Amanda Minervini: Autopsy, so a forensic doctor?
1:39:29
Rupert Isaacson: Not forensic research.
1:39:31
Amanda Minervini: Oh legal medicine.
1:39:34
Rupert Isaacson: No, it's, it- How come- â¦ re- re- research
1:39:36
into cancers and so forth.
1:39:37
But it, but it can be- Okay
1:39:38
also be forensic, and I can't believe that my brain has just shut down.
1:39:42
And it's, it's â¦ Anyway
1:39:44
Amanda Minervini: so- We'll be on for a few hours.
1:39:45
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:39:46
Anyway, he's one of them.
1:39:48
And, he isn't always a particularly nice man, and if, if he feels that
1:39:53
you're full of it, he'll tell you.
1:39:57
Mm-hmm.
1:39:57
And with some enthusiasm.
1:39:58
As he should.
1:39:59
And,
1:40:00
Amanda Minervini: I love these people
1:40:02
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: so at the end of it, all the shamany stuff, I thought, "Well, he's
1:40:05
gonna take a big old poo all over me."
1:40:08
So I walked up to him, and I opened an imaginary umbrella.
1:40:14
And I said, "Go on.
1:40:15
Surf's up.
1:40:16
Do your worst.
1:40:18
Sitting target.
1:40:19
Come on.
1:40:20
Have a go."
1:40:21
And he said, "Actually, Rupert, today I'm not gonna take a poo."
1:40:24
And I said, "That's unlike you.
1:40:26
You know, why?
1:40:27
It's â¦ This is a God-given opportunity.
1:40:29
I mean, it's like shooting fish in a barrel, you know?
1:40:32
How, how can you resist?"
1:40:34
And he said, "Well, two reasons."
1:40:35
Remember this is almost 20 years ago now, so he said, "You know, where attitudes
1:40:40
around autism were very different."
1:40:41
And he said "The first thing is you're, you, y- you're suggesting that there
1:40:45
could be certain gifts associated with autism, and it's â¦ that
1:40:48
it's not some sort of disaster.
1:40:50
And that I find actually quite interesting."
1:40:52
Pathologist.
1:40:53
Mm.
1:40:53
Thank you.
1:40:54
Amanda Minervini: Pathologist, okay.
1:40:55
Yeah.
1:40:55
Well, a smart man.
1:40:56
Rupert Isaacson: Head of pathology at co- University College Hospital in London.
1:41:00
Okay.
1:41:00
Mm-hmm.
1:41:01
And came up with a rather iconic series of researches into things
1:41:07
that became certain treat- effective treatments for cancers and so on.
1:41:11
And, He s- I, he said, "Well, that's interesting."
1:41:13
He said, "But, but the other thing, Rupert, is that you have
1:41:16
produced a very interesting piece of work about the placebo effect."
1:41:20
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:41:20
Rupert Isaacson: And I said- Mm-hmm â¦ "Oh, what do you mean?"
1:41:22
And he said, "Well, Rupert, most people misunderstand the placebo effect.
1:41:26
They, they, they will dismiss something or relegate something and say, 'Oh,
1:41:32
that's just the placebo effect.'"
1:41:34
And then he says, "Rupert, that means they fundamentally misunderstand
1:41:37
what the placebo effect is."
1:41:39
And I said, "Well-
1:41:39
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
1:41:40
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: what is it then?"
1:41:41
He said, "Well, Rupert, our entire system of modern medicine rests upon
1:41:45
it, and it's completely irrational."
1:41:47
And I said, "Go on."
1:41:48
He said, "Well, Rupe, when you go to the doctor and you get a prescription, you go
1:41:55
to the pharmacy and you get it fulfilled, and you take the drug and hopefully you
1:41:59
feel better, and so therefore you feel this is a completely rational process."
1:42:04
But he said, "Rupert, it's not.
1:42:06
What happens is that drug before you ever bought it went through a series
1:42:11
of trials, and in those series of trials there were people who got the
1:42:15
placebo, who had the thing that the drug is supposed to make better."
1:42:23
And said, "Rupert, to begin with, most people do not get better on the drug.
1:42:29
Most people get better on the placebo."
1:42:32
And he said, "Rupert, they don't just think they get better on
1:42:35
the placebo and then go off and die later 'cause they're stupid.
1:42:38
They actually get better, and we don't know why.
1:42:42
And in almost every case, more people, considerably more people, get better
1:42:47
on the placebo than on the drug.
1:42:49
And it's not until the drug overtakes the placebo by a certain factor that it's
1:42:54
allowed- Hmm â¦ to go on the market.
1:42:56
And this often takes several trials."
1:42:59
And he said, "So the entire system that you're, that you think of as so rational
1:43:03
rests on something very irrational."
1:43:05
And he said, "Is it possible that over millennia indigenous people have learned
1:43:10
a way to activate the immune system through, or activate the placebo effect-
1:43:17
Amanda Minervini: Right
1:43:17
Rupert Isaacson: um, through ritual?"
1:43:18
Amanda Minervini: It's self-healing, right?
1:43:19
Indeed.
1:43:19
People are healing themselves thinking that they can.
1:43:22
Rupert Isaacson: And he said, you know, "It's entirely plausible."
1:43:24
He said, "You know, m- probably one day science will catch up with
1:43:27
it as to what the mechanism is."
1:43:29
But he says, "Until it does, I myself as, you know, eminent-" pathologists
1:43:35
of University College Hospital have no pr- trouble with that as a concept.
1:43:42
And that was enlightening for me, because I think- Mm â¦ until that point I'd
1:43:48
always made a separation in my mind between, say, the indigenous wisdom and
1:43:52
the allopathic medicine or- Mm-hmm â¦ the Western and the Eastern or the, you know,
1:43:56
indigenous and the Western or whatever.
1:43:58
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, we shouldn't.
1:43:58
Yeah.
1:43:59
But also we should give credit to these people because, you know, for instance,
1:44:02
I have been taking my students to the Amazon forest as part of, you know,
1:44:05
my human animal relations class, zoo anthropology class, and what this is
1:44:11
a Quichua family in the Ecuadorian Amazon and, you know, what they teach
1:44:15
my students is that they have everything they need because the plants there have
1:44:19
everything, and they know the plants.
1:44:21
But then pharmaceutical companies go isolate one principle, so
1:44:25
one molecule from one plant-
1:44:28
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely
1:44:28
â¦ Amanda Minervini: and never give them credit whenev- when instead, you
1:44:32
know, they understand a lot better how the whole synergy of different
1:44:35
molecules in the whole plant works.
1:44:38
So there has been a robbing from the pharmaceutical companies of the
1:44:43
traditional knowledge of these people.
1:44:45
And then how long we've had Western medicine?
1:44:47
150 years, 200 years.
1:44:50
For thousands of years we survived with plant knowledge and indigenous
1:44:54
peoples practices and rituals.
1:44:56
So that's-
1:44:58
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
1:44:59
Yeah, and I mean, if there was nothing in it, all these people would
1:45:01
be dead 'cause they, they live a long way from Western medicine and
1:45:04
they get sick and they get better.
1:45:05
Amanda Minervini: We,
1:45:05
Rupert Isaacson: we
1:45:06
Amanda Minervini: have survived as a species, the only species of humans-
1:45:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, exactly â¦ of
1:45:10
Amanda Minervini: the five original ones.
1:45:11
So, you know, I do think of all the people who had to live for me to
1:45:15
be born and be alive today, I think about it often and it's a miracle
1:45:23
Rupert Isaacson: We haven't really talked about your actual work outside
1:45:26
of the, the equine assisted thing.
1:45:27
So we've alluded to the fact that you are a professor, we've alluded to the
1:45:30
fact that you're an academic and that you're at Colorado College, et cetera.
1:45:34
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:45:35
Rupert Isaacson: Talk, talk to us about your actual academic work, and then
1:45:37
maybe we can bring it back to how it ties in with your equine assisted practice.
1:45:44
What do you
1:45:44
Amanda Minervini: do?
1:45:44
Rupert Isaacson: What do
1:45:44
Amanda Minervini: you study?
1:45:44
Yeah, I, I work in the field of zooanthropology, so where
1:45:49
it's human-animal relations, and my specialization is
1:45:52
more on philosophical lenses.
1:45:56
So not really s- I don't do â¦ I don't lead scientific research, but I
1:46:02
do read a lot of scientific research, and I try to th- then translate it
1:46:05
in simpler terms to be something shareable with larger audiences.
1:46:10
And my goal has always been to communicate broadly.
1:46:14
So once I finish with my PhD, basically w- put a PhD here to show that you
1:46:19
can use the lingo, the academic wor- language, and then, you know, once
1:46:22
I did that, I'm like, "I'm done.
1:46:24
I want to talk to everybody in simple ways."
1:46:27
And I am in an Italian program here, which you know, this college has
1:46:31
been a treasure trove of creativity.
1:46:35
And so it's also the block plan, and so where we basically shrink one semester
1:46:40
in three and a half weeks, and students take one block, so one class at a time.
1:46:46
So there is full focus on this one topic, and it's great for people who
1:46:50
really like to go down rabbit holes.
1:46:56
Like me.
1:46:56
So it's perfect for me- Like me
1:46:57
and students tend to be, yes, you self-selected.
1:47:00
You know, we have a small student body, about 2,000 students.
1:47:05
They're very self-selected, and so there is amazing work that
1:47:08
you can do in the classroom.
1:47:10
But then my philosophy is experiential learning and just going away with
1:47:15
students, you know, traveling Italy, Ecuador, Galapagos, Amazon, as much
1:47:20
as I can because there is so much to learn from, you know, being outside
1:47:24
of the classroom, being also immersed in different cultures, especially
1:47:27
for American students right now.
1:47:31
Things were going great until this year, then, you know, there is a bit
1:47:35
of a shrinking in academic funding, and there, there is a lot of fear.
1:47:40
So, I don't know how things are gonna look like in, you know, a
1:47:43
couple of years and, you know, lots of colleagues are being cut.
1:47:46
Their jobs are being cut.
1:47:48
So there is a bit of maybe- Insecurity
1:47:52
insecurity, yes, some worry.
1:47:52
But, you know, I, I try my best.
1:47:56
I do what I can.
1:47:57
But I also work in the Italian field, but the Italian philosophy is very strong
1:48:02
in the field of human-animal relations.
1:48:04
We have many philosophers that are internationally known and
1:48:08
seminal in their research, Roberto Marchesini, Rossi Bradotti.
1:48:13
And also one of the ideas is that Italian culture wasn't influenced that much
1:48:19
by Descartes and the French philosophy and the continental philosophy that
1:48:24
Americans look at, so French, German.
1:48:27
But we had our own field, our own branches that stemmed from Saint Francis
1:48:31
of Assisi, who instead of talking of dualism, mind, body, of separation
1:48:37
in a Descartes way, Cartesian way, talked about unity and connections
1:48:43
and basically equality of creatures.
1:48:44
So even though Italy created fascism, then, you know, at a
1:48:48
basic level culturally, it's it's a culture that thinks a lot
1:48:51
about connections and equality-
1:48:57
Rupert Isaacson: When y- you talk about zoo anthropology and it makes me think,
1:49:01
well, obviously when any of us are out there doing our equine-assisted work,
1:49:05
we must be relatively good s- subjects for study from zoo anthropologists.
1:49:11
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:49:11
Absolutely
1:49:12
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you must have your academic eyes open when you're doing
1:49:17
your work and observing- Mm-hmm
1:49:19
other people doing the work.
1:49:20
Yes.
1:49:20
What insights, what insights do you get?
1:49:28
Amanda Minervini: Have to, would have to think of specific examples, but I, my,
1:49:33
my insight usually is of great openness because I can see the struggles and the
1:49:40
journey in many different methods and the merits of many different approaches.
1:49:45
And then basically what I'm trying to do, I'm a figure who connects
1:49:49
different fields and makes people talk.
1:49:51
Also, I'm a bridge.
1:49:51
That's why, for instance, I curate collections of essays
1:49:54
that are multidisciplinary.
1:49:56
I work a lot with veterinarians, for instance.
1:49:59
So I just don't take anything lightly or for granted.
1:50:05
I try to go really deep at the roots and also ask questions, and I see
1:50:11
that there are a lot of motivations and reasons also for things that
1:50:15
maybe at first seem odd to me.
1:50:18
But then when you talk to people, there are always really good
1:50:21
reasons and really good intentions.
1:50:24
Then maybe everybody can make efforts to do better and, you know, I just try to
1:50:28
learn every day and do better every day.
1:50:30
But then, you know, probably that's what I get.
1:50:33
Trying to be helpful, like if people ask questions.
1:50:36
Like, you know, I had really great conversations with the caregivers
1:50:39
of the horses in the ceremony.
1:50:42
I was invited to care for the horses and spend time with them
1:50:49
So I don't know, I try my best.
1:50:52
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, I think, I think â¦ Let me, let me offer something.
1:50:56
Mm-hmm.
1:50:57
Back to what prompted me to say, "Okay, now I think I want you to come and
1:51:02
talk to us," was that video, right?
1:51:05
Okay.
1:51:05
Amanda Minervini: Well-
1:51:06
Rupert Isaacson: That particular one, right?
1:51:07
Because in that I could see a synthesis of a multiplicity of approaches that
1:51:14
I think very few people in the horse world, certainly very few people
1:51:20
within the therapeutic end of the horse world, many of whom are stuck rather
1:51:25
rigidly with certain ideologies and-
1:51:29
Amanda Minervini: Mm
1:51:29
Rupert Isaacson: regard other approaches as anathema or heresy or whatever.
1:51:35
Mm-hmm.
1:51:35
And
1:51:37
Amanda Minervini: you- That's, that's wrong, because horses don't
1:51:39
respond to one cookie cutter, right?
1:51:41
Rupert Isaacson: You got it.
1:51:42
So- And, and nor do people, right?
1:51:44
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
1:51:44
So Jimmy taught me, and other horses taught me, so I can't be square,
1:51:49
I have to be porous and open.
1:51:53
Rupert Isaacson: So I could see, just when you sent me that short video,
1:51:56
I could see Warrick's work in there.
1:51:59
Mm-hmm.
1:51:59
I could see my work in there.
1:52:01
Amanda Minervini: Yours,
1:52:02
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
1:52:02
I could see-
1:52:03
Amanda Minervini: Absolutely
1:52:03
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: other things in there that I would think
1:52:05
â¦ That's why I wanted to ask.
1:52:06
I was like-
1:52:07
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
1:52:07
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: is â¦ There's something else, there's some
1:52:08
other things going on in there.
1:52:10
I want to find out from Amanda what she's been up to.
1:52:12
And then you sent the video- So Rachel's
1:52:13
this, here's the scent work, and here's this.
1:52:15
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
1:52:16
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, this
1:52:17
Amanda Minervini: all makes sense.
1:52:17
And the latest studies on equine cognition, McLean and all the
1:52:20
other researchers connected.
1:52:22
You know, there is a lot of incredible work going on right now, so I am
1:52:25
connected through the International Society of Equitation Science.
1:52:29
So- So that may change things also from year to year as we make more discoveries.
1:52:36
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:52:37
Let's just return to that in a couple of-
1:52:39
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
1:52:40
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: just hold the thought there.
1:52:41
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:52:45
Rupert Isaacson: It's only the possibility of pulling all those threads together
1:52:49
that could create a session like that one which you showed me, which I went, "Damn-
1:52:54
Mm-hmm â¦ that's cutting edge shit."
1:52:57
And-
1:52:59
Amanda Minervini: Thank you.
1:53:00
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, t- h- I mean, no question But it takes a particularly
1:53:09
discerning inquisi- inquiring, but also, yeah, but discerning.
1:53:17
Being able to say, "Well, I c- I will takeâ¦"
1:53:22
It's not, it's not what people often say is, "I take what I think is good
1:53:25
and leave what I think is bad," because I don't think that you think there's,
1:53:30
like, this good thing in Warwick's work and this bad thing in Warwick's
1:53:33
work, or there's this good thing in my work or this bad thing inâ¦
1:53:35
I don't think you think like that.
1:53:37
Mm-hmm.
1:53:37
I think, I think what it's discerning, that's judgmental.
1:53:40
Discerning is where you say, "In this moment, in this situation-
1:53:44
Amanda Minervini: I need this
1:53:45
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: I need this bit of Warwick and I need this bit of Rue
1:53:48
and I need this bit of, Yeah â¦ of, of Rachel Driessens, and I need
1:53:52
this bit of some of the other people you've been talking about, and I
1:53:55
need this bit of Francis of Assisi.
1:53:57
And I also need this bit of myself and the general- Of
1:53:59
Amanda Minervini: me
1:54:00
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: morphing field, and I need this bit.
1:54:01
Yeah.
1:54:01
And I need a whole lot of, of, of J- Jimmy.
1:54:06
And-
1:54:06
Amanda Minervini: Yes
1:54:07
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: now you- It's
1:54:08
Amanda Minervini: 90% Jimmy
1:54:10
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: the Jimmy pizza.
1:54:11
Which-
1:54:14
Amanda Minervini: Or salad Is, is
1:54:15
Rupert Isaacson: r- You prefer salad â¦ right, exactly.
1:54:16
It's really rare to see that kind of alchemy going on, because usually people
1:54:25
learn a method and then die on that hill.
1:54:27
Mm-hmm.
1:54:27
And that's why when we, for example, train people in our methods, we always
1:54:33
say, "Don't just do our methods."
1:54:35
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
1:54:35
Rupert Isaacson: Don't just learn that.
1:54:36
Amanda Minervini: Right.
1:54:36
You know?
1:54:36
That's the best thing that you can tell people.
1:54:38
Rupert Isaacson: Y- 'cause you're gonna need a whole bunch of spices up
1:54:42
there in your spice rack, you know?
1:54:44
Learn to use them all.
1:54:45
But it, as you know, it's not the norm.
1:54:46
And, and perhaps that zoo anthropology lens that you look
1:54:49
through really helps you with that, and I think that helps moveâ¦
1:54:53
It's another reason why I wanted you on- Yeah â¦ with this conversation.
1:54:56
A- it helps move our field forward.
1:54:59
Mm-hmm.
1:55:00
Which means, for me personally, more people like my son get helped.
1:55:04
Now, when I said hold that thought a, a, a mi- a minute ago, so you went
1:55:09
back to the International Society of
1:55:11
Amanda Minervini: Equitation Science.
1:55:12
Society of Equitation Science.
1:55:13
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:55:14
And you said new things about e- communication coming through
1:55:17
them that may change what we do in the next couple years.
1:55:21
Extrapolate please.
1:55:23
Amanda Minervini: And Nina, Nina Ekvall-Fry is also working on this.
1:55:26
So for instance- Great.
1:55:27
Really love Nina Ekvall-Fry, yeah â¦ there is a, yeah, wonderful academic
1:55:30
horse person, farrier, beautiful soul.
1:55:34
She's everything.
1:55:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:55:35
Amanda Minervini: For instance, she has been able to produce and publish
1:55:40
comic book in Swedish and English on equine cognition to basically it's
1:55:45
the problem of the riding school.
1:55:48
And the lack of horsemanship in riding school, so how do you teach
1:55:51
children directly and maybe as a side effect also their so-called
1:55:58
instructors about equine cognition?
1:56:01
So for instance, when we were talking about the garbage bin, how do we explain
1:56:05
the science behind what I am doing to all these people who are involved with horses?
1:56:10
And, you know, there is more and more the young people, they see through the BS.
1:56:14
They don't want the dominance approach.
1:56:16
They don't want coercion.
1:56:18
They're very smart.
1:56:19
And even if they have not been around horses, I've heard a lot of people,
1:56:22
young people come to me and say, "Oh, I've seen this person doing that.
1:56:26
What do you think?
1:56:26
And what should I do?"
1:56:28
Also, you know, basically, I think I'm doing what I was doing spontaneously
1:56:32
as a thir- 12-year-old around horses, happy as a clam, just playing with
1:56:37
horses, having these horses that were of mine, but they were connected to
1:56:41
me because I was doing the 12-year-old girl thing, to the academic I am today.
1:56:47
And also, as an academic, I am a little bit atypical academic because
1:56:51
in our fields we tend to specialize in our two millimeters of knowledge and
1:56:57
not move because we're so afraid of making mistakes, of being criticized.
1:57:01
And I'm like, "No, I am a bridge, bridge."
1:57:06
I put fields together, I make them talk, and maybe I don't know everything
1:57:09
about each field for sure, but I know enough that I can connect.
1:57:14
I'm taking risks also professionally, but I think it's
1:57:16
the only way I want to do things.
1:57:20
And I think it's the best way right now for, you know, we, we
1:57:23
need these connecting figures as we need the ultra specialists
1:57:29
Rupert Isaacson: It's â¦ I had no idea that Nina had produced this comic book.
1:57:32
Thanks for-
1:57:32
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, it was at the, at the conference in Colorado
1:57:35
of the ISES So I'm just, I'm just, International Society of Equitation
1:57:39
Rupert Isaacson: Science.
1:57:39
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
1:57:39
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just looking it up.
1:57:41
Yeah, I think I need her back on the show to talk about this more.
1:57:43
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
1:57:44
She does a lot of marvelous things.
1:57:47
Rupert Isaacson: Although I do see that that's been you.
1:57:48
Amanda Minervini: I, I wish to be Nina when I grow up.
1:57:52
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe she'd like to be you.
1:57:54
You know, in, in, by the way, for the, for the re- for the readers, for the,
1:57:57
for the listeners and the watchers who don't know who Nina Ekholm Fry
1:58:00
is, also in Colorado, not far from from Amanda Mm At Denver University.
1:58:05
It's the- Mm-hmm â¦ I always get the name wrong, but it's, it's effectively
1:58:08
the, the School of Human-Animal I-
1:58:11
Amanda Minervini: Interactions â¦ Interaction.
1:58:13
And then she's the director of the Equine Assisted-
1:58:17
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:58:18
Amanda Minervini: And- â¦ something.
1:58:19
School of Equine Assisted, yeah.
1:58:20
She, she leads the
1:58:21
Rupert Isaacson: program- This is, I think this was- â¦ and she teaches
1:58:22
the first such academic body in the USA to start actually giving out
1:58:29
degrees and graduate degrees in this.
1:58:31
Now there are quite a few.
1:58:33
But Nina really was the pioneer, and I remember meeting her when she was
1:58:38
at Prescott College in in Arizona before she went across to Denver and
1:58:41
she was just beginning with this work.
1:58:43
And then- Prescott College, yeah â¦ w- watching it really
1:58:45
flourish and become mainstream now when everyone, you know, was raising
1:58:50
their eyebrows at her back then.
1:58:52
Do not raise your eyebrows- Mm â¦ at Nina, my friends,
1:58:55
'cause you will be wrong.
1:58:56
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
1:58:57
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: so yeah, it, it's interesting how this whole field
1:59:02
has developed, opened up, and also to the point now where it's like a
1:59:06
credible a career path for people.
1:59:09
You know?
1:59:10
Mm-hmm.
1:59:10
When, when I first began it, you were paying to do it.
1:59:14
And- Mm-hmm â¦ now, you know- And
1:59:16
Amanda Minervini: much needed
1:59:17
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you can-
1:59:18
Amanda Minervini: In certain countries, as you were saying, Ireland-
1:59:20
Ireland â¦ the state will also provide â¦ Yeah, because it's, State,
1:59:23
the state â¦ it's like acupuncture.
1:59:24
At some point, we- Indeed â¦ realize that it works, and oh, okay.
1:59:27
Well, so if it's work.
1:59:28
Rupert Isaacson: We're, we're in August 2026- Yeah â¦ as we record this.
1:59:31
Next week, August the 11th, there's a new Horse Boy place opening in County Cork,
1:59:38
and the prime minister is turning the sod.
1:59:40
Amanda Minervini: Ah, Ireland.
1:59:41
You
1:59:41
Rupert Isaacson: know?
1:59:41
Oof.
1:59:41
When I was standing in a, in an arena- What an
1:59:44
achievement â¦ well, not an arena.
1:59:44
When I was standing in a field in Texas in 2004 wondering what the hell to do,
1:59:49
and Betsy had that amazing relation- you know, connection with my son- Yeah
1:59:53
and things went from there, I couldn't have imagined that
1:59:56
things would go to that degree.
1:59:58
But they honestly wouldn't have happened like that without people like you and
2:00:02
Nina bringing the academic eye on it because government only, and insurance
2:00:09
companies only, fund and support what the academics say is worth supporting.
2:00:17
And so you all have
2:00:23
We have, we, I think all of us Who've been in this role have, have a, have
2:00:27
a bit of a debt of gratitude to your, people like you and people like Nina.
2:00:33
Because if you hadn't done those studies and were not consistently
2:00:38
doing them and consistently bringing that academic focus to what we do we'd
2:00:44
still be floundering around in the mud, paying to do it, and not reaching
2:00:50
the numbers of people that we need to.
2:00:53
Amanda Minervini: I wish I had a more active role in that progression.
2:00:57
I really didn't, but I, I do understand that yeah, it's important
2:01:00
for academics to, you know, embrace certain nuts and- More
2:01:04
Rupert Isaacson: if, as a-
2:01:04
â¦ Amanda Minervini: things and see what's, you know,
2:01:06
Rupert Isaacson: what's there â¦ the, the very fact, the very fact that
2:01:08
you're going around it, having these conversations at the conferences
2:01:11
and publishing around it is- Yeah
2:01:14
part of the solution.
2:01:15
And publishing.
2:01:16
For me, Amanda, it, it's invaluable service.
2:01:19
Everybody must do their part.
2:01:20
And you're not just the wonk doing it in Wonksville in, at Wonk College,
2:01:27
you are also running your own program.
2:01:29
You're running your own equine-assisted program, so you have your own
2:01:32
laboratory in which to test out what is the cutting edge.
2:01:36
Yeah.
2:01:36
And I would say that that thing that I saw you do with Jimmy made
2:01:42
me â¦ And you gotta, you know, I work in 40 countries, Amanda.
2:01:46
I go around, I see good stuff everywhere, thank God, and then occasionally
2:01:50
I see something that goes, "Whoa."
2:01:52
Amanda Minervini: Oh.
2:01:52
Rupert Isaacson: And that was, "Whoa."
2:01:54
Amanda Minervini: Thank you.
2:01:54
I also have to thank the owners of the ranch.
2:01:58
I don't know that they want to be mentioned, but they have been
2:02:00
very gracious and patient to let me run their program there.
2:02:03
They don't ask for any extra money other than the boarding of the horses, and they
2:02:08
see these groups of students coming in and out and they're just excellent people.
2:02:12
So I'm very grateful to them because, you know, without their support, I don't
2:02:16
know that it would've been possible.
2:02:17
It's just a very beautiful place, as you, you know, were lucky to see.
2:02:21
Rupert Isaacson: And a lot of those students that you're bringing in who
2:02:23
are coming in thinking, "Well, I'm, I'm coming in here as a service user.
2:02:28
I have anxiety.
2:02:29
I sign up for Dr.
2:02:31
Amanda's program.
2:02:32
I go out and have a lovely time with her horses," but these, some of them will
2:02:35
go on to be the academics of tomorrow.
2:02:37
Some of them will go on- Mm â¦ to be the decision-makers of tomorrow.
2:02:39
Some of them will end up- Yeah â¦ going and working in insurance companies.
2:02:42
You know, it's really important- Yeah â¦ that they get exposed to this.
2:02:45
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
2:02:45
I that's what I am trying to do.
2:02:47
Yes, and they really see, start seeing things in different ways.
2:02:50
And thanks to the nonprofit, but also it's one of the goals of my animals
2:02:55
class, which is called Voice of the Nonhuman, to just really show the
2:02:59
students that, you know, the human-animal relation can happen on different
2:03:03
levels and in completely different ways, and that also other cultures-
2:03:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
2:03:07
â¦ Amanda Minervini: have been doing it differently for a
2:03:08
long time, and we do have
2:03:10
We as Western people, American-based people, have a lot to learn.
2:03:14
And
2:03:14
I have been receiving a lot of even written feedback from my students
2:03:19
saying that, you know, these learnings, these things that they're exposed to
2:03:23
in these classes are life-changing, will stay with them forever.
2:03:28
They talk to their parents, their friends about them.
2:03:30
So, you know, this kind of keeps me going because there is a lot of effort
2:03:34
and, you know, organization to be able to lead these classes and, you
2:03:38
know, travel abroad with students.
2:03:40
Yeah.
2:03:40
It's, so but it's very rewarding.
2:03:42
And so to hear them constantly, almost every week, even after years,
2:03:48
you know, sending me a message or an email and, you know, it's, it's great
2:03:55
Rupert Isaacson: One of my other cherished memories with you is,
2:03:56
is taking a bunch of mini horses onto the campus at your college.
2:04:00
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
2:04:01
Rupert Isaacson: And just having them- I-
2:04:03
interact with and meet the public.
2:04:06
Yeah.
2:04:06
And bring out joy.
2:04:08
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, and cute.
2:04:10
Overload of cute.
2:04:12
Rupert Isaacson: So listen we've, we've approached the two-hour mark here.
2:04:16
Mm-hmm.
2:04:16
I think people would probably quite like to know how they could contact you.
2:04:19
I'm sure people want to know how they could support your nonprofit.
2:04:22
I'm sure people would like to know- Yeah â¦ how to engage with your work.
2:04:26
So could you just give us the plugs so people know what to do?
2:04:30
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
2:04:30
So I'm an easy Google away.
2:04:32
If you Google my name, I come up.
2:04:34
There is my website.
2:04:35
There is my profile on the Colorado College website, and there is also a
2:04:40
very easy-to-use donate button on my website because, you know, donations
2:04:43
do really help because horses are becoming more and more expensive.
2:04:48
So my website is amanda.minervini@weebly
2:04:52
or sorry, .weebly
2:04:54
something.
2:04:55
And so all the information, also my emails and are, are there.
2:04:59
So very
2:04:59
Rupert Isaacson: easy.
2:04:59
And
2:04:59
Amanda Minervini: Minervini
2:05:00
Rupert Isaacson: is like the goddess Minerva-
2:05:02
Amanda Minervini: Minerva
2:05:04
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: just lots of them.
2:05:04
Amanda Minervini: Lots of little ones.
2:05:05
Lot- yes, lots of little Minervas.
2:05:07
Rupert Isaacson: Which, which I love.
2:05:08
Many little Minervas.
2:05:09
I love the fact that you're all these little wisdom goddesses going
2:05:12
off in lots of different directions.
2:05:13
Amanda Minervini: All the little owls.
2:05:15
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
2:05:16
Little owls flying out from you.
2:05:17
So Amanda Miner- so the website again, just do it slowly this time so for
2:05:23
the people who are grabbing a pen.
2:05:25
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
2:05:26
So let me look it up actually, 'cause I don't remember.
2:05:29
Rupert Isaacson: Fair enough.
2:05:30
Amanda Minervini: So Amanda Minervini, one word.
2:05:33
So Amanda is spelled just like the American Amanda, and then M
2:05:38
as in Milan, I, N as in Naples, E, R, V as in Victor, I, N, I.
2:05:45
So amandaminervini.weebly
2:05:49
which is W-E-E-B-L-Y.com.
2:05:53
But again, it's probably easier to put my first and last
2:05:57
name on your favorite search.
2:05:59
And
2:05:59
Rupert Isaacson: the
2:06:00
Amanda Minervini: name of the nonprofit?
2:06:01
It's EGLE.
2:06:03
E-G-L-H-E, Equine Guided Learning and Healing Experience.
2:06:11
Rupert Isaacson: Very good.
2:06:13
Lads, listeners, watchers, send her a few bucks.
2:06:17
Help her to continue this work.
2:06:19
It is cutting edge stuff.
2:06:21
Also, if you're passing through Colorado, go check her out.
2:06:24
Go out and observe a session and-
2:06:27
Amanda Minervini: Join a session
2:06:28
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you'll have to, you'll have to be, have your arm twisted to
2:06:31
go and spend a, an afternoon in the beautiful foothills of the Rockies, Mm
2:06:36
with ponies.
2:06:37
And, and watch this, its synthesis of, of all this different methodology
2:06:42
seen through this zooanthropic
2:06:46
lens, and sort of offered in a way that I think many of us who've been
2:06:51
in the game for a long time can learn from, if only also to learn to just
2:06:57
open ourselves to each other's methods.
2:07:00
There's a huge need for this.
2:07:03
If we want governments and insurance companies and so forth to take
2:07:10
us seriously, we cannot squabble.
2:07:13
We cannot do the little things that we know can happen.
2:07:19
It's time to go beyond that, and the synthesis of what we all do
2:07:24
is the next generation, I think.
2:07:25
I think Amanda's really doing it, so go check it out.
2:07:28
And for people who are, who are younger, who are just starting in the
2:07:31
field, again, much to learn there.
2:07:33
So Amanda, thank you for coming on.
2:07:37
Thank
2:07:37
Amanda Minervini: you so much.
2:07:40
Rupert Isaacson: Always a pleasure to hang out.
2:07:42
I guess we will do it again.
2:07:44
We will do this again.
2:07:45
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
2:07:47
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: there's, there's stuff we didn't get to cover.
2:07:48
I'd like to get more into Saint Francis of Assisi.
2:07:51
I'd like to-
2:07:52
Amanda Minervini: Oh,
2:07:53
Rupert Isaacson: yeah â¦ I'd like to delve more into nature
2:07:55
and the mind in general.
2:07:57
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
2:07:57
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: so perhaps we can do that.
2:08:01
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
2:08:02
And you know, I've also for work I've been reading a lot and there is
2:08:05
this wonderful book that I'm reading now because it's the common read for
2:08:10
this year, so I'm also grateful that my colleagues are going that way.
2:08:13
It's called Theory of Water- Theory of Water â¦ Anishinaabe
2:08:16
Map- Water: Anishinaabe Maps to the Times Ahead by Anishinaabe
2:08:21
author Leanne Betasamosake Simpson.
2:08:24
So you know, also academia in general is opening up to this kind of, you
2:08:29
know, indigenous knowledge and what we can learn, so I'd be happy to
2:08:31
discuss as much as I can or give suggestion for, for other people.
2:08:36
But thank you so much and I'll send you my aroha.
2:08:39
Aroha is the Maori word for love.
2:08:43
Rupert Isaacson: I send it to you right back.
2:08:45
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
2:08:46
Thank you.
2:08:47
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend.
2:08:48
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2:08:50
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