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Should Christians Fight in War? Mennonites, Catholics & What the Bible Says · Relish: a Christian podcast

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  Relish pleasing or zestful flavor a quantity just sufficient to flavor to be
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  pleased or gratified by enjoy we are hoping that what we bring to your table
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  today might add some spice to your life,
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  welcome back to another episode of relish i am your host roan miller don patterson
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  and then if you remember grant bender from the last episode he is with us again,
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  and I believe we'll be covering some more Catholicism in this episode.
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  Oh, not until after I get done with this question. All right.
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  As a Christian, how should you respond to poverty?
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  I mean, I think we're called to give to the needy. And I remember in,
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  was it Sunday school? We were talking about how you should treat your neighbor
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  and who your neighbor is, if it's like actually somebody that physically lives
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  next to you or just the definition of neighbor.
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  And I think our Sunday school teacher said that it's anybody around you with
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  a need, any need of any kind. And so then, yeah, calling to just serve our neighbors and,
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  take care of our neighbors. So, yeah, in a sense, then everybody around you
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  is, neighbor and everybody around you has a need of some kind, but that's true.
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  Yeah, I'd agree with that. If you're, you know, the story of the Good Samaritan,
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  it's like, love your enemy, you know, there's not a limit.
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  But then there also seems to be, when I read scripture, even a further extension
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  of that love among the Christians in need.
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  Um specifically in first john i talked about this the other week but,
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  you know it says if anyone sees his brother in need you know for john three
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  yeah first john three and when jesus talks about feeding the sick he's like,
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  if you what you've done to the least of these my brothers you've done to me
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  so it's like there is we should be loving everyone but also the love in like
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  this christian community even goes beyond that kind of innocence i don't know
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  how you think about that but when i read it it's like,
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  that's what it says you know that's why they instituted people to take care
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  of the poor in act seven right that in the church the poor in the church specifically
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  so that's why they collect alms for the poor here right yeah i was gonna bring
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  that up but yeah yeah good job,
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  you guys are thinking the same line of thought that's good stuff okay i'll turn
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  it over to you and your question and,
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  uh getting on things i haven't thought about for a,
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  This is an interesting question to me, and we covered it some in school,
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  but what is just war theory?
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  And why don't we believe just war theory?
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  So just war theory would tote, and you can correct me on this.
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  That there are certain wars that need to be fought for justice sake.
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  In other words, the foe, if you would, if the foe would win,
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  justice would be cast awry.
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  And so we have to win this war. We must fight this war for the just cause of humanity.
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  And so we justify it.
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  Basically, just war is some justifying that this war is all right to fight.
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  Fighting a moral war. Fighting a moral war. Then a lot of times,
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  we as Anabaptists say, is there such a thing?
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  Because, and I think we've seen this and time and time again,
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  that as the dust of the war settles, people keep thinking, well,
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  maybe there was another way to do this, that we wouldn't have had war.
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  Yeah. And I think that's all well and good.
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  To have those active mental exercises.
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  I would like to see us maybe have them more proficiently before the war instead of after the war.
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  And if it's after the war, I just have this aversion to,
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  pardon me, of talking ill of the dead.
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  There's so many, and especially young people, get caught up in our wars,
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  and sometimes used in our wars.
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  And I have a hard time speaking ill of their investment.
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  So, yeah, war is war.
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  I don't know if there's one you can justify that much more than another.
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  But I think we should probably put that thought ahead of time rather than to the end.
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  But it's my thought. Yeah. And I think even saying like, it's not that Mennonites
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  are like, let anything happen, but it's more like, what are the means that we use to stop this?
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  You know, kind of like Don said, being proactive. And it's like one time,
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  you know, I had a question like World War II.
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  Mennonites would not say we stand back and do nothing. They're like,
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  be proactive with the church in Germany.
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  This is what the man said. talk to them so that they,
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  stop Hitler's... The churches in Germany were helping Hitler, I'm pretty sure.
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  Well, they weren't talking against him, except Bonhoeffer. Bonhoeffer was very
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  active. Yeah, and so then it's like, okay, if we partner with the churches in
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  Germany, how can we stop Hitler from doing what he's doing?
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  And I do agree, when you start justifying wars, it's a slippery slope to go down.
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  I've heard the arguments like, But does the lesser evil justify the greater evil? I don't know.
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  But I don't think Mennonites believe in joining war. Don, maybe what do you think?
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  And I think, well, we don't agree in engaging in war. Yeah.
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  I don't know that we always measure well what will happen if something doesn't
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  happen. Okay. Okay, so Bonhoeffer, World War II.
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  If Bonhoeffer could have activated his brother and clergy in Germany and spoke
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  out into what was going on,
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  could that have changed the course of history in Germany if he would have been listened to?
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  And he gave his life in that effort. He actually got to the United States and
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  could have saved his own neck.
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  He went back to Germany. Wow.
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  And invested in making sure that the church would speak into what was going
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  on and get away from what was happening, or not get away from it, but speak against it.
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  And he actually did a pretty good job to the point that he got Hitler all upset.
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  Hitler arrested him and, of course, then hung him just before.
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  The end of the war.
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  So that takes me back, just war, any war.
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  How are we speaking into the political realm, the social realm,
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  our faith in such a way that we could work at these conflicts more effectively?
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  Appropriately, more effectively. I guess right now I see the church's state
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  is separated for a reason,
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  but are we going to be able to effectively speak into the skirmishes in our
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  world from the church's standpoint?
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  And I'm starting as an old fogey to get a little frustrated that But with all
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  the knowledge base that we have and all the effective communications we have,
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  just the opposite is happening.
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  In other words, instead of creating a collaboration where we're trying to do
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  better for everybody, we're dividing
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  everybody through the very means of communication that are out there.
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  And so just war? I'm not sure there's going to be such a thing the next time around.
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  In one way or another, if we're not speaking towards remediating what's going
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  on, we're going to be speaking into the conflict.
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  And so, oh boy, I got on my soapbox on that one, didn't I? Yeah.
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  I'm just saying, with all that we have and the means that we have,
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  and I think of that situation, World War II, which needed to happen.
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  I mean, if we'd allowed that skirmish to go on, I mean, who knows?
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  We might be speaking German today.
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  That being said, is there another way we could have done it? Yeah.
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  And that seems to be the question. Yeah, yeah. What's interesting is there are circles that are,
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  getting back to Bonhoeffer again, because he spoke into that situation from
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  his church background, from his active faith, and saying, so,
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  okay, Christians, today, how come we aren't doing that? Yeah.
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  And I think some groups are calling it, what is it, Christian nationalism? Oh, yeah.
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  You mentioned that in a previous episode. Yeah. Because we were talking about...
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  We did, didn't we? ...nationalism.
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  I'm still trying to think, is that a term of endearment?
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  Maybe I should accept that as a term.
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  I think we've lived in the United States with our faith so long,
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  we've become fairly relaxed at the points at which our faith should be impacting the world around us.
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  Yeah. And I'm not sure other faiths look at it that way. And I think of.
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  The Muslim community and their Islamic faith, they intend for it to affect community.
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  And they're electing officials so that their agenda can be furthered.
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  And are we doing that? Are we thinking about that aspect as Christians when we go to the polls?
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  Well, and here's the thing is Mennonites are very strong belief in separation
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  of church and state, and that's good.
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  But the reason wasn't so that they couldn't influence the state.
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  It was so that the state wouldn't influence them.
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  And when we flip those around, we actually, I think, almost create an idol in,
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  what we want Christianity to look like.
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  No, it's God's kingdom come as will be done here and now, like everywhere.
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  I don't know. Maybe I overspoke with that, but you know what I mean?
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  There's a good point in there, Grant, because, yeah, it was to protect us.
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  It was to protect the Christianity.
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  Not to stop the Christian influence in our government or anything like that.
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  And I'm not saying go join the government or don't go join the government,
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  but I'm saying the reason for the separation of church and state was ties in
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  with the Catholicism, protect the church. Protect the church, yeah. Right.
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  Wow. Did you know you were going to get quite that much out of that question? I did not.
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  Is that another spicy one in there? Please. I do, actually, yeah.
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  How do Catholics approach baptism? With water.
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  I could have told you that.
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  They're at a little different spot because they're going with original sin.
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  And so they feel like a baby, as soon as possible, should be baptized to take
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  care of that original sin.
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  The sin is taken care of with the water at baptism, and then they're part of
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  the church. And it really worked good for governments that were together with
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  the Catholic Church because then that baby becomes part of the tax roll.
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  They know, like a registration, if you will, of that child on the tax roll at
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  that time. So it really worked good back then.
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  And they were really diligent about it because if a child was about to die,
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  they made sure it got those rights as soon as possible.
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  And even today, I find that is part of what they do.
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  Yeah. Something I find interesting is after the child is baptized,
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  the Catholic church, I think they believe in this thing where the church protects
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  the soul of the child until this age of accountability.
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  So it's like the church is responsible for the soul of the child,
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  which is really interesting.
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  But yeah, I think one of the main reasons they get this is in John 3 with the Nicodemus.
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  But also 1 Peter 3, which is actually one of the greatest arguments for,
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  I think, baptism being like a symbol.
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  But they take it to mean literal because it says, baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you.
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  And it's talking to Noah and the ark. But the thing is, Peter here is connecting
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  baptism with the water that Noah went through on the ark.
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  And so the question I have after reading this, and I got this from Adam Clark's
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  commentary, is, is the water the thing that saved Noah or is the ark?
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  And it's the ark, right? And so baptism, which corresponds to this story of
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  Noah and the ark, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body,
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  but as an appeal to God for good conscience.
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  It's like, what is the ark in our baptism? And the answer is the Holy Spirit,
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  right? That's the thing that carries us through the water as this symbolic representation.
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  Because the water isn't what saved Noah, and it's the ark, right?
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  And God is our ark. He's the thing that carries us through that cleansing,
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  that washing, you know? And so it literally says in that following verse,
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  not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for good conscience
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  through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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  Maybe I said that wrong or confusing. You got it. You got it.
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  And I was trying to connect to the argument.
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  He's put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit.
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  And that's a whole nother debate. That's a whole nother thing. Yeah.
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  I have a whole thing I use this passage on.
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  Yeah. So Catholics think that's literal, literally referring to the water as
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  the thing that saves them.
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  We would say, well, right after that, it says it doesn't literally cleanse you.
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  It's an appeal to God for a good conscience.
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  Yeah. Well, I'm trying to, now that you bring that up, I've always used this
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  passage to talk about, you know, the way the cross separated history. Yes.
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  Because it goes down for this reason, the gospel was preached even to those
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  who are now dead. Yeah. Down in chapter 4, 4, 6.
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  And so that's a salvation issue and that would be. That's a big question. Yeah.
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  Wow. That's a question that is such many, many interpreters differ on that one.
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  Oh, I don't differ with anybody. That's the way it is.
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  I'm just saying the significance of the cross is it separated time. Oh, yeah.
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  So everybody before that couldn't believe in the cross because it hadn't happened
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  yet. And he couldn't believe in the blood of Jesus for saving them from their sins.
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  But at that point at the cross where he died and shed his blood for the sins,
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  and then he goes into Hades and preaches the gospel, which it says here,
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  he preached even to those who are now dead,
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  so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body,
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  but live according to God in regard to the spirit, so that their spirits could be saved. Mm-hmm.
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  Through Christ. So I've actually heard, that's what I thought as well,
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  but I've heard another interpretation.
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  If you've heard this where it says, Christ in the Spirit proclaimed to the spirits
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  in prison from the time of Noah.
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  So it says that Christ through the Holy Spirit went back to preach to those
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  in the time of Noah so that they could put their faith in Christ.
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  So where did he preach that?
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  Like through the Holy Spirit, through the scriptures in the Old Testament.
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  I mean, that's their interpretation. So, jumping back in time rather than their souls being.
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  Yeah. Well, it's kind of like the Holy Spirit really couldn't do its thing until Jesus was glorified.
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  Right. And even though from their perspective, it was there from our perspective,
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  reading the Bible, all of those things of God moving the Old Testament was actually.
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  Like Jesus going back there.
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  That's what they say. Well, and we know God's beyond time and space.
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  My emphasis is the cross has a whole lot more power than we often give it credit, I guess.
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  Because they couldn't do it without the cross. They couldn't do it without the
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  cross, and it's the same cross that saves us.
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  It's the same salvation that we have, and it's like going back in time and rewriting
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  it, if you will, through the Holy Spirit.
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  Yes. And through Jesus. Yes. So I just, yeah.
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  It's interesting that you come to the same passage for this as well, the baptism. Mm-hmm.
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  So I still like the fact that, and I guess I confirm the fact that there's a
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  confirmation baptism in the Catholic faith.
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  So that as the believer grows in time and comes to adulthood,
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  they confirm the baptism that was actually done in their infancy.
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  And so that's good. But we do it different.
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  And instead of baptizing as a child, we do the parent-child dedication.
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  So the parents dedicate their child to the Lord at that point.
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  And then we as a community of faith, sort of like the Catholic Church,
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  want to walk with that family until that child can accept the faith on their own.
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  With their own adult confession. Yes.
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  And part of that is because we only really see people get baptized after they've
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  accepted the Father and Jesus into their heart.
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  In the Bible. In the Bible. Yep. When we read this, the only examples we have
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  are people getting baptized after they believe.
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  So does the Catholic Church have a confirmation time? Yeah. Okay.
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  It's like the age of accountability normally.
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  Yeah. It's usually either early high school, late middle school. Yeah.
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  And they do a good job of getting the kids all together and teaching that as a unit.
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  Our local deacon is often in charge of that. He talks about that. Yeah.
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  Yeah, I don't only live in the Mennonite world. I get around a little bit, you know.
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  Yeah. Very good. That was a saucy question.
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  Yeah, I only got, what, two questions done? I only got two questions done.
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  Sometimes it's like that. Yes. Sometimes it's like that. And sometimes Don just
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  keeps going whether the question meant anything or not, you know.
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  Well, Andrew, you had Grant. You
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  had some help on this one. I enjoyed this help, too. Yeah. It was good.
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  Yeah it's been good grant's an intern he's been here for eight weeks and uh yeah you you,
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  you transitioned out of that here soon and we do appreciate your time as an
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  intern uh it's we have these saucy discussions every once in a while yes because
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  he brings his class notes and uh things going on and,
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  yeah yeah used to that it's good it's well and it helps me maintain an edge
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  because this is not stuff I think about every day.
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  Really, it isn't.
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  Maybe you think I do, but I don't know.
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  And it makes great content for you guys to see also. Figured you might as well
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  put a camera on it. Love you, Alex. Work on this one now.
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  Alrighty, guys. Thank you for joining us. Hope you enjoyed and we'll see you
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  next time. Lord willing.
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  Thank you for joining us for this podcast. Feel free to become part of this
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  ministry by sharing it with others.
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  Our goal is to help each other grow deeper in our understanding of who God is
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  and is calling to us in our daily lives.
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  Thank you again for joining us and may God bless your day.