Latest / 52 Cues - A Production Music and Sync Podcast / Let's Talk Sync Agents (with Chuck Milan)

Transcript

Let's Talk Sync Agents (with Chuck Milan) · 52 Cues - A Production Music and Sync Podcast

0:30
Chuck Milan: Five tracks to one library, five tracks to another agent.
0:33
Chuck Milan: Don't give them the same tracks.
0:35
Chuck Milan: If you're going to split it up, just give them a few tracks.
0:39
Chuck Milan: Give them five here and five there and split up your songs, but don't let them do the same tracks.
0:44
Chuck Milan: So that's what I'm doing with my library now, and when I renew my clients, I'm asking for that exclusivity and telling them they can pitch their other stuff anywhere and also it's.
0:59
Dave Kropf: you know, it's also a team effort what is happening everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the 52Q's podcast, your weekly insight into all things production and library music.
1:19
Dave Kropf: Whether you are just curious about the sync industry, or maybe you are ready to pitch to publishers, I promise you you're in the right place.
1:26
Dave Kropf: My name is Dave Kroff and it is so good to be with you today.
1:29
Dave Kropf: And if you're watching this on YouTube, then why don't you give it a thumbs up?
1:33
Dave Kropf: Or if you're listening to the audio on the go, then how about a five-star review?
1:36
Dave Kropf: Either way, be sure to subscribe, because I talk about production and library music every single week.
1:42
Dave Kropf: Today's episode wouldn't be possible without the incredible support of our family, friends and neighbor subscribers of 52Qs, who not only keep the community alive and thriving, but as member subscribers they also get access to extra features like workshops, live streams, cue breakdowns, weekly feedback sessions and hundreds of hours of video archives and the opportunity to submit to real music publishers.
2:07
Dave Kropf: So maybe you're ready to get started and push into a career in production music?
2:12
Dave Kropf: Then why don't you head over to 52Qscom and join us?
2:15
Dave Kropf: It's free to sign up and memberships start around $4 a month.
2:20
Dave Kropf: So we are wrapping up week 13 of 2024.
2:25
Dave Kropf: And how has your week been going?
2:26
Dave Kropf: My week has been really busy.
2:28
Dave Kropf: Next week, here at 52Qs and also at Full Sail, it is our spring break Now.
2:35
Dave Kropf: Typically I could take off during spring break, christmas break and fall break or, I guess, summer break.
2:44
Dave Kropf: I will take the week off, which means no live streams.
2:46
Dave Kropf: Next week, no Q breakdowns.
2:48
Dave Kropf: We will be having a podcast episode, because I am going to be producing it ahead of time.
2:54
Dave Kropf: And isn't that the way it's like?
2:56
Dave Kropf: In order to not have to work during a vacation, you have to work twice as hard before you leave, or if you don't, then it's gonna be a pile of work waiting for you, and I think the lesson there is is that if you do the work ahead of time, then you can really unplug and you can spend the time during your vacation or during whatever time you set aside.
3:21
Dave Kropf: It could just be a weekend, right, or it could just be going out to the movies one night.
3:27
Dave Kropf: If you budget your time appropriately, then you can really spend that time free of any sense of obligation.
3:37
Dave Kropf: And so, as a chronic procrastinator, this has been one of the things that I've worked on a lot in my all life, and especially in my professional life, not putting something off that I don't necessarily have to do right now because future Dave can do it, but what ends up happening almost without fail is future Dave gets robbed of the peace that comes from taking care of your business ahead of time.
4:06
Dave Kropf: You know we talked about in one of the past episodes about you know, eat your frogs.
4:12
Dave Kropf: You know that Mark Twain quote that says if it's your job to eat a frog, then eat it first thing in the morning, and if your job is to eat two frogs, eat the biggest one first, or something like that.
4:23
Dave Kropf: And that kind of applies that if you do the work ahead of time, if you budget your time, budget your money, whatever, then when it comes time to spend that time or money, then you can do it freely.
4:39
Dave Kropf: And so that's been my week so far Planning ahead of time, producing extra podcast episodes, trying to get ahead of the writing, and we are preparing the house.
4:52
Dave Kropf: We have a bunch of 52 Keys family folks coming to Orlando.
4:57
Dave Kropf: We're calling it the family reunion that is next week, really looking forward to that, and so we are preparing the house for that.
5:05
Dave Kropf: But I am working hard ahead of time so that I have time to spend and not have to work, and I think that's the life lesson.
5:15
Dave Kropf: It's not all that fun when you're in the middle of it, but here we are as far as the cue.
5:22
Dave Kropf: The cue that I wrote which would be last week for my week 12 on Expedition 52, is a new type of cue.
5:30
Dave Kropf: It is a cue which I am calling a European dramedy cue, which means, if you remember, a while back I did cues which were cinematic world cues and I'm working on multiple albums specifically for Discovery Channel that are world flavors, and so the cinematic world was kind of world music fused with tension music.
5:57
Dave Kropf: Well, this album is dramedy cues fused with Italian, french and Greek traditional instrumentation.
6:08
Dave Kropf: This cue that we're about to listen to is called Escargot to be Kidding, which, admittedly, is much more of a visual pun than a pun.
6:18
Dave Kropf: Sound Escargot, it looks like the word got and so it looks like Escargot to be Kidding.
6:24
Dave Kropf: But I can't bring myself to say Escargot to be Kidding.
6:27
Dave Kropf: But it creates a visual pun and this features plucky, dramedy, pizzicato strings, some clarinet from Vienna Symphonic and me on melodica, trying to do my best impression of an accordion.
7:58
Chuck Milan: Thank you.
7:59
Dave Kropf: So so that was Escargot To Be Kidding.
8:21
Dave Kropf: I had a lot of fun writing that and I'm really looking forward to writing the rest of this album.
8:28
Dave Kropf: And I've got so many tortured title puns in store.
8:35
Dave Kropf: I can't wait to share them with you.
8:36
Dave Kropf: And for folks who are family and friends subscribers, they can see a complete queue breakdown of this queue over at 52Qs.
8:45
Dave Kropf: And for our neighbor subscribers, this was a queue that I wrote during the live stream and so you can watch this queue be created from scratch.
8:54
Dave Kropf: I am so happy to be joined on the podcast today by Chuck Milan of Milan Marketing and Chuck among the many hats that he wears, and one of the reasons I really wanted to bring him on the podcast today is he is a sync agent, and I've got lots of questions as far as what's a sync agent.
9:15
Dave Kropf: But before we get into all of that, chuck, welcome to the podcast.
9:19
Dave Kropf: It is so good to have you.
9:20
Dave Kropf: Have you with us today thank you, david.
9:23
Chuck Milan: it's great to be here too and admire your success, and I've been going on your website and, my god, you've had a very, very successful career.
9:32
Chuck Milan: I started off as a drummer vocalist myself and went to music school too, and you went way beyond everything that I tried or attempted to do.
9:44
Dave Kropf: Well, I appreciate that.
9:46
Dave Kropf: Thank you so much, sir.
9:48
Dave Kropf: I really do appreciate that.
9:50
Dave Kropf: Yeah, I don't know man Drummers first of all.
9:52
Dave Kropf: We're everywhere.
9:53
Dave Kropf: Yeah, I don't know man Drummers first of all.
9:54
Dave Kropf: We're everywhere.
9:55
Dave Kropf: And so many drummers and percussionists make their way into composing and music production and I'm not exactly sure why that is.
10:02
Dave Kropf: I don't know if it's just the use of rhythm or we're used to playing kind of a supportive role and that just makes us predisposed to making film music or TV music.
10:15
Dave Kropf: Perhaps I'm not sure, but, like I said, it's really good to have you with us.
10:20
Dave Kropf: And before we start and we were chatting a little bit before we started rolling that Chuck is not a lawyer and these are Chuck's opinions and Chuck, I'll let you say a little bit more about that.
10:34
Dave Kropf: Just wanted to make sure that we're offering up Chuck's opinions and Chuck's I'll.
10:36
Dave Kropf: Chuck, I'll let you say a little bit more about that.
10:37
Dave Kropf: Just just wanted to make sure that we're we're offering up kind of suggestions and opinions.
10:45
Chuck Milan: But you know you're not a lawyer.
10:46
Chuck Milan: Yeah, I just.
10:46
Chuck Milan: Anything I say is, yeah, just being facetious about the lawyer thing.
10:50
Chuck Milan: I mean sometimes, sometimes when I got out of college, someone said sometimes I sound like a lawyer.
10:55
Chuck Milan: I'm really good with language Thanks to my mom who used to read to me when I was a boy growing up, and I'm really good with language and I am a little bit perfectionistic.
11:05
Chuck Milan: I did work in finance for 10 years for companies like Warner Brothers and Panasonic, so I'm like, anyway, a little bit perfectionistic that way.
11:14
Chuck Milan: But anyway, anything I say is just my own opinion and my own take on it.
11:19
Chuck Milan: Dave, you're certainly probably a better expert on production libraries since you have worked in that.
11:25
Chuck Milan: You know in that, in that field, with that, with with those people.
11:29
Chuck Milan: But this is so well.
11:30
Chuck Milan: What I would do is share my take on it and you're welcome to jump in and share your experience as well.
11:35
Chuck Milan: As far as music libraries go, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
11:40
Dave Kropf: I think it's important any time, whether you're watching a podcast like this or enrolling in a class or going to a seminar or workshop or something like that.
11:49
Dave Kropf: I think it's just important to keep what you're hearing in context.
11:53
Dave Kropf: Important to keep what you're hearing in context because anytime you're looking to, you know, make a living or make money off of creative endeavors, there's an element of risk involved, you know, and so all we can do is communicate our own journey and where we've been, and and we can try to read the tea leaves as as far as where the industry might be going.
12:11
Dave Kropf: But but yeah, your mileage may vary.
12:15
Dave Kropf: So we just wanted to say that on the front end, for sure, you know, just so we manage expectations, and if anybody is promising you success, my advice would be to run away from them.
12:28
Dave Kropf: To turn away, because nobody can promise success in this kind of industry just because there are so many variables.
12:36
Dave Kropf: All we can do is, like I said, point you in the right direction and equip you with the tools you need.
12:41
Dave Kropf: So, chuck, we met during one of the Production Music Association's Zoom sessions and we were in a breakout room.
12:52
Dave Kropf: Absolutely wanted to have you on, and you just recently, as of this recording came back from the 2023 PMC.
13:00
Dave Kropf: How did that go?
13:01
Dave Kropf: How was that this year?
13:04
Chuck Milan: Oh, it was fabulous and I was amazed at the growth and the number of attendees they had.
13:13
Chuck Milan: They broke records.
13:14
Chuck Milan: It was a record attendance 900 attendees.
13:18
Chuck Milan: Oh my gosh, I was amazed.
13:23
Chuck Milan: I said to myself, my God, I've seen so many bald headed older men in there, like us.
13:31
Dave Kropf: It's the 21st century comb over man.
13:34
Chuck Milan: Yeah, it was.
13:34
Chuck Milan: Yeah, um, uh, you know all composers and uh, so many from all over the world.
13:41
Chuck Milan: There was that for germany, uh, england, uh, not only composers, but I mean attendees came from england, uh, germany, um, uh, I saw some in australia, um, I, I think there was some others from you know, mexico, of course, and uh, I say of course because it's so close, but uh, there was others from other, uh, there was uh some from asia that were there, um, but anyway, it was, uh, it was fabulous and um, they had some really great panels and I was blown away by some of the.
14:15
Chuck Milan: There was a lot of data.
14:16
Chuck Milan: I said the other day that it seemed like in the whole conference, the 12 hours, 36 hours or so that I spent there, I probably heard like 30 minutes of music.
14:36
Chuck Milan: Unfortunately, uh, that was the award show, um, so it was not, you know, it was not about.
14:38
Chuck Milan: It was all about production and and statistics and numbers and um, another um, uh, one of our um, a library owner said uh, who was also a drummer, um, um, he started off as a drummer and uh successful guy.
14:53
Chuck Milan: That was umandy um walkler, randy walkler.
14:57
Chuck Milan: You might know randy um, but he, uh, he, uh, he uh.
15:01
Chuck Milan: He said that, yeah, the uh, the uh, it's becoming more of a computer science.
15:06
Chuck Milan: Yeah, years ago it was less technical, but but now it's even even more and more technical, all the time.
15:16
Dave Kropf: Do you think?
15:16
Dave Kropf: Do you think that's because the just the tools have become increasingly more sophisticated and we're doing so much kind of in the DAW and in the box?
15:28
Chuck Milan: Yeah, it's not only people.
15:29
Chuck Milan: No, I'm not a.
15:30
Chuck Milan: I'm not a music producer you are, but I work on computers and they're talking about the libraries are so sophisticated now they have these.
15:40
Chuck Milan: They're huge.
15:41
Chuck Milan: There's like APM is the probably biggest and maybe most well-known library.
15:48
Chuck Milan: They were formed by Universal.
15:51
Chuck Milan: They're associated by Universal.
15:54
Chuck Milan: They're associated.
15:54
Chuck Milan: They're a joint venture of Universal Music and Sony Music.
16:01
Chuck Milan: They've been around quite a while and I'm not promoting them, it's just they're the ones I'm most familiar with.
16:09
Chuck Milan: They have over a million tracks and yeah, over a million tracks.
16:16
Chuck Milan: And I asked myself how do they do it?
16:19
Chuck Milan: You know, how do they know what to pitch and what not to pitch?
16:22
Chuck Milan: But I guess they have sophisticated search engines.
16:25
Chuck Milan: I think they use.
16:27
Chuck Milan: I'm not promoting them either.
16:29
Chuck Milan: I think they use source audio or audio network apps to as a search to help them search and organize their files.
16:36
Chuck Milan: Then you think that's mind blowing.
16:39
Chuck Milan: The BBC, british Broadcasting Company, sent a couple of representatives from England and they said this is mind boggling too.
16:51
Chuck Milan: It's like thinking about the universe and the number of stars that are available.
16:54
Chuck Milan: They said they have 36 million tracks.
16:59
Chuck Milan: Now I don't recall how they say they use them, but they have 36 million tracks.
17:08
Dave Kropf: It's a wonder anything ever gets found.
17:11
Dave Kropf: I'm in Discovery's catalog, which has 700,000 tracks, and I am impressed when something of mine gets placed, knowing how many tracks there are but 36 million.
17:25
Dave Kropf: I, I, I.
17:27
Dave Kropf: My heart breaks for the music supervisor who has to open that up and start kind of crate diving for for music.
17:36
Dave Kropf: That's no data, man, that's what it.
17:38
Dave Kropf: That's what.
17:39
Dave Kropf: That's what's got to be so important they must have an incredible search engine.
17:44
Chuck Milan: Yeah, so, anyway, uh, or in gens, um, so, with that said, um, yeah, so anyway, it was a great conference and they had a nice award show and um, there is um, uh also.
17:59
Chuck Milan: Uh, one of the trends is the.
18:00
Chuck Milan: Uh, music libraries used to be um.
18:01
Chuck Milan: The trends is the music libraries used to be instrumental only or primary, primarily instrumental, and now they are also taking on like band type tracks with vocal, which is used to be the has been primarily where sync agencies fall in.
18:21
Chuck Milan: Sync music publishers cover now traditional music publishers, uh, cover now um, traditional music publishers, um, uh, they also.
18:31
Chuck Milan: But or record companies, uh, pitch masters.
18:34
Chuck Milan: So, uh, what is the?
18:37
Chuck Milan: The basic difference, was it between a sync agent and a music publisher and a music library?
18:44
Chuck Milan: According to my best take on it, my opinion is that libraries have been primarily instrumental music.
18:54
Chuck Milan: They work with a lot of cues, they are very much immersed in the trailers, trailer and advertising world and promo world for television and films, trailers, promos.
19:14
Chuck Milan: That's mostly television, but there's also now we have all these other media, forms of media.
19:23
Chuck Milan: You've got TikTok, you've've got youtube, and those are other worlds in themselves, um, but but uh, then you have the publishers which are uh, publisher is also a legal type type entity.
19:39
Chuck Milan: Uh, being a publisher is a uh, what do you call it?
19:42
Chuck Milan: A is is a business in itself which is part of you know a lot of writers and have their own publishing.
19:52
Chuck Milan: So they writers, writers are commonly their own publisher or what as well, or they're, at least they're a half a publisher, that's.
20:00
Chuck Milan: That's sort of a piece of the ownership of the copyright.
20:03
Chuck Milan: So, anyway, that's publishers.
20:08
Chuck Milan: It can be huge.
20:09
Chuck Milan: I mean, you got who's a publisher?
20:11
Chuck Milan: Dave, you're probably a publisher.
20:14
Dave Kropf: Yeah, it's really interesting kind of getting into that side of things.
20:16
Dave Kropf: Yeah, for sure.
20:18
Chuck Milan: And then Sony Music and Universal Music are publishers and we know there's sort of a world of difference.
20:26
Chuck Milan: I hate you know.
20:26
Chuck Milan: I'm like you're both successful, but I talk about as scale wise.
20:30
Dave Kropf: Oh my gosh yeah.
20:32
Chuck Milan: You know they're making.
20:33
Chuck Milan: They're bringing in millions or billions of dollars and have hundreds of employees and and uh uh uh uh, artists, composers like yourself, and uh, you know a music uh, music publisher entity right, so so, just so I understand.
20:53
Dave Kropf: So sync and a sync agent, somebody who is like like yourself, you're not necessarily working with composers, necessarily, are you you more work with music, with lyrics?
21:06
Dave Kropf: Do you find that that's what quote-unquote syncs more, or is that kind of your main thing?
21:13
Chuck Milan: Yeah, sync agents including myself as a sync agent, what we work with and publishers and music libraries typically also get a back-end royalty.
21:27
Chuck Milan: They may typically take a percentage of your publishing right, dave.
21:30
Chuck Milan: That's pretty common.
21:34
Dave Kropf: And they get all the publishing, and then we get all the writers.
21:37
Chuck Milan: yeah, Some are all the yeah, you still get your writer's share, so they get the publishing and publishing share of the copyright and sync fees.
21:48
Chuck Milan: I guess sometimes you get a sync fee and sometimes you don't, right.
21:51
Dave Kropf: Yep.
21:51
Dave Kropf: And often that is also split with the publisher as well.
21:55
Chuck Milan: Split with the publisher, but I mean you yourself sometimes get get sync fees, but not always Right.
22:00
Dave Kropf: Not not all.
22:01
Dave Kropf: Yeah, a lot of times like I, I do a stuff, a bunch of stuff for sports broadcasting and so much of that.
22:06
Dave Kropf: There's no up front.
22:07
Dave Kropf: You know it's all on spec and you get.
22:09
Dave Kropf: You know, if you hit, you know a prime time play, you know on network tv, then that can be somewhat lucrative but very little upfront money for that stuff very little upfront.
22:20
Chuck Milan: Yeah, um, so anyway.
22:22
Chuck Milan: Uh then, then I'll go into the sync agencies.
22:28
Chuck Milan: Sync agents, like myself, we usually work with vocal music and usually a band's pre-recorded music, like albums of bands or singers that hire a band or producers that you know have a band project, but they're completed, already completed, what we call in this industry commercial music versus production music.
22:57
Chuck Milan: It's made to be sold to the public, you know, cds or whatever music.
23:03
Dave Kropf: Sure Spotify streaming.
23:05
Dave Kropf: Yeah, it's whatever music.
23:07
Chuck Milan: Sure Spotify streaming.
23:07
Chuck Milan: It's not music.
23:09
Dave Kropf: It's music that's released as an artist, being an artist, doing their art.
23:12
Chuck Milan: Right and trying to promote their art to public, public and sell albums Taylor Swift and not Travis Kelsey, but but anyway, close.
23:28
Chuck Milan: But anyway, artists like that and also sync agents, many of them do not take a part of the publishing, do not take a piece of the publishing.
23:42
Chuck Milan: We only split the upfront sink fee.
23:45
Chuck Milan: Now, there are some that do, there are some that do, and so it's.
23:51
Chuck Milan: And the percentage sink fee they can.
23:53
Chuck Milan: The percentage of the sink fee, which is the upfront money that you get for a placement, can be anywhere from that they charge is from anywhere from, like, I think, 25% up to 50% of the upfront money.
24:12
Chuck Milan: And then many of them, or most of them, do not, or many of them do not take a part of the copyright or the publishing.
24:23
Chuck Milan: They're not taking the publishing, um, so they don't get any royalties.
24:29
Chuck Milan: Now some do and the way they do that, but they don't.
24:32
Chuck Milan: They don't take a your the copyright on your song.
24:35
Chuck Milan: What they'll do is they will uh, retitle them, uh, they'll go on the uh when they have the music placed.
24:44
Chuck Milan: When the music is placed, they will retitle your track on bmi s cap or csec.
24:51
Chuck Milan: They will retitle that track wherever you're publishing it.
24:54
Chuck Milan: They will retitle that track and, like, put a little code in front of it, in front of the name of the song, so that and then they will get publishing on that use of the song.
25:05
Chuck Milan: Only, right, the song is used in a TV show.
25:09
Chuck Milan: They may ask for the publishing on that particular song and that particular usage.
25:17
Chuck Milan: So all the other usages in the world for that track belong to you, but that particular usage on that show, uh, would be attributed to, um, you know, the music library and they, they code it somehow.
25:34
Dave Kropf: Yeah, and and, unlike you, know, if I write a cue and and I give it to a publisher, they're going to assume the copyright and I can't go put it out on spotify or anything because the publisher owns the copyright and so if they want to put it on Spotify, that's all well and good.
25:47
Dave Kropf: Somebody who has a sync agent that has written the song that they've released on Spotify, the fact that it gets placed into a film or TV or a game or whatever, that doesn't preclude them from still being able to play that song live or release it on Spotify.
26:04
Dave Kropf: They don't have to pull that down or anything.
26:06
Dave Kropf: Is that right?
26:07
Chuck Milan: No, the sync agent only has a, is only entitled or eligible it is a better, maybe a better word eligible to to pitch the music to her film and television.
26:23
Chuck Milan: And usually, as in some of the agreements, that can be exclusive or non-exclusive, and uh, with the sync agents, um, so either way, they have, um, let's say I'll talk about non-exclusive, the uh, I, I have some clients that are non-exclusive.
26:43
Chuck Milan: I have some that are exclusive.
26:45
Chuck Milan: Non-exclusive means they can have other people pitch their music as well and me, so, anyway, but there's some issues with it.
27:02
Chuck Milan: I have an older client that I, a couple of older clients that when I renew I'm going to renew them as exclusive, because I've heard horror stories about companies being pitched by multiple, the same track, by multiple sync agents because they were non-exclusive, and then people getting hurt and also the supervisors getting angry and uh, upset and confused because they're getting pitched the same song by multiple people and um, so forth.
27:42
Chuck Milan: So, uh, anyway, the the.
27:45
Chuck Milan: But a lot of, especially the newer artists, they, they, oh, they like non-exclusive and they liked it, they think it's cool to have.
27:52
Chuck Milan: Anyway, now I'm like you know, opinion and emotion about it, but they, some think it's, it's wise to have multiple.
28:03
Chuck Milan: Some think it's wise to have multiple companies represent the same track.
28:10
Chuck Milan: However, I was over also at the GMS conference, the Music Supervisors Conference, and there was a guy who was with Saatchiachi and Sachi doing commercials and he also was a pitch guy.
28:27
Chuck Milan: He also was.
28:28
Chuck Milan: I think he might've been an artist.
28:30
Chuck Milan: He was previously a pitch guy.
28:32
Chuck Milan: He pitched his own library.
28:34
Chuck Milan: Now he's on the other side as a music supervisor with Sachi and Sachi and he recommended, he said, that you'd give five tracks to one library, five tracks to another agent.
28:44
Chuck Milan: Don't give them the same tracks.
28:46
Chuck Milan: If you're going to split it up, just give them a few tracks.
28:50
Chuck Milan: Give them five here and five there.
28:51
Chuck Milan: And you know, split up your songs, but don't let them do the same tracks.
28:56
Chuck Milan: So that's what I'm doing with with with my library now and with my the next.
29:02
Chuck Milan: You know, when I renew my clients, I'm asking for that exclusivity and telling them they can pitch their other stuff anywhere.
29:10
Chuck Milan: And also, you know it's also a team effort.
29:12
Chuck Milan: Now, you know, if somebody is out, you know is out playing their music and somebody hears it and says, oh, I really like your music, you know, I'm going to put it in a film or TV show and I'm working as well.
29:30
Chuck Milan: This helps me to get.
29:32
Chuck Milan: I will get.
29:33
Chuck Milan: I'm entitled to represent the track for that song, and so it's a little helpful to me.
29:44
Chuck Milan: I find that I'm working harder for those that I have exclusive with, because I know someone else is not going to be competing against me down the road.
29:54
Dave Kropf: So, so, so, if, if somebody is listening right now, you know, because this is this whole channel is super focused on production music, but we also have, you know, songwriters and folks who you know singer songwriters and release music um, what, what makes an artist a good candidate for sync music is there, is there a certain skill you have to have from lyric perspective?
30:17
Dave Kropf: Is there a certain certain type of song or structure that just you have found in your experience syncs better?
30:24
Dave Kropf: What, what's?
30:25
Dave Kropf: What's the really really the best candidate if we have folks who are listening.
30:30
Chuck Milan: Well, there's a combination of most of my clients I come from and I was previously an artist manager, so I kind of have a I kind of like I, I, I, I go from the I kind of like represent the artist.
30:48
Chuck Milan: You know I, and try to work with the artists I believe in.
30:54
Chuck Milan: You know, believe in the artist and some of the musicians that I've had.
30:58
Chuck Milan: Some of the clients I have have been people I've known.
31:01
Chuck Milan: I've seen them perform live here in the LA area, so that's how I've connected with them that way.
31:09
Chuck Milan: And then you know others.
31:12
Chuck Milan: I found in a search you know music supervisor said they were looking for like Irish music, for instance, and so I did a search and I actually it wasn't much of a search because I thought of one guy I know who did Irish music and then I said, oh, I know another guy who does Scottish music, but that's pretty close.
31:34
Chuck Milan: So I contacted them and brought them on just for that project Gotcha.
31:46
Dave Kropf: So are sync agents.
31:47
Dave Kropf: Are they looking for established artists, you know, with a following and a YouTube presence and maybe Spotify releases and Instagram?
31:55
Dave Kropf: Or or is is that not as important in the sync space as it is necessarily if you're trying to kind of build a career as a performing artist?
32:07
Chuck Milan: I mean, that's all we all want to.
32:09
Chuck Milan: You know, we would all love to have the Beatles or who else, motley Crue or you know any of those icons.
32:20
Chuck Milan: We'd love to have those established artists or even the more current people.
32:25
Chuck Milan: But you know they're likely they're already with a big music publisher and also a record company and the record company is pitching their master side and, knowing that the you know, knowing the master, you know, and they all work together.
32:47
Chuck Milan: So they and the publishers are pitching the song from the so they can get song royalties, they can get publishing money and writers' royalties and sync for the song.
32:57
Chuck Milan: So they're all pitching for the big artists.
33:06
Chuck Milan: And so what I and of course I would like to have someone, even someone I had I was approached by from being on the PMA.
33:17
Chuck Milan: There was some different one artist and then there was one that was like a producer and she was pitching me music from her multiple artists and uh, uh, they, uh, there was, there was one one, one group that was pitching me and, uh, they had, uh, they said they had some success.
33:38
Chuck Milan: You know, they had some successful tracks and it was really good.
33:41
Chuck Milan: It was, uh, you know, upbeat, kind of current pop music kind of like, uh, um, the really trendy type, uh, it was pop and um, well-produced and um.
33:52
Chuck Milan: So yeah, I uh.
33:55
Chuck Milan: But, as I said, I wanted a exclusive on it, cause I don't want you know, I don't want to be competing with two or three or more other entities, you know, for the same tracks.
34:06
Chuck Milan: Sure, so uh, so yeah they.
34:08
Chuck Milan: So if they're more you know, they can be more selective.
34:11
Chuck Milan: Of course, if they have success, we want people with a successful track record, but then again they may be more picky because they've had a successful track record.
34:22
Dave Kropf: Yeah, I can imagine that it's easier to find somebody who has a little bit more exposure, whether it's through the socials or YouTube or Spotify or whatever.
34:32
Dave Kropf: But it's not necessarily a prerequisite, it's just.
34:38
Dave Kropf: It just helps.
34:39
Dave Kropf: It doesn't hurt, it helps things along.
34:42
Chuck Milan: And we also have to be.
34:43
Chuck Milan: It helps yeah, it also helps if they're organized and willing to do the.
34:49
Chuck Milan: As you probably are well aware, if there's so much the metadata that's required now it's becoming more and more metric business.
34:56
Chuck Milan: Like I said with the, you know, the only way, with these millions of tracks that are available now, the only way they can be tracked down is through metadata and embeds all the contact information and legal information in the tracks.
35:13
Chuck Milan: So metadata is really important.
35:16
Chuck Milan: So it has to be people that are willing to, you know, provide I sort of provide a service for the music supervisors beyond what you know that they have.
35:32
Chuck Milan: All the metadata is.
35:33
Chuck Milan: I make sure all the metadata is in on their tracks and the artists I've had to uh, they're newer, the newer artists, if they're new to sync, if they're, if they're new to sync, then they're.
35:46
Chuck Milan: It's more work because we have to educate them on the sync business, including all the metadata and making sure they're.
35:54
Chuck Milan: My last client was she does children's pop music and it's well-produced.
35:59
Chuck Milan: There's a production duo in New York who produced the music for her and they were like three-time Grammy nominees for children's pop and so, anyway, it's well-produced and all that.
36:15
Chuck Milan: But I had to.
36:16
Chuck Milan: You know she had, I said, her producer agreement.
36:21
Chuck Milan: She had an agreement with the producers but it wasn't signed.
36:26
Dave Kropf: That seems like a pretty important part of a contract.
36:29
Chuck Milan: It wasn't signed.
36:30
Chuck Milan: I looked at it and she sent it to me.
36:32
Chuck Milan: They didn't sign it, so I said things like that I had, it was like, it was very it took like to onboard the client, which is you know, to bring all that metadata.
36:43
Chuck Milan: I mean it took months.
36:44
Chuck Milan: There was all over the holidays too, I you know I and then.
36:57
Chuck Milan: So then, to get all the data and I had, I sent her an Excel spreadsheet to fill out and and she did a really good job on it.
37:01
Chuck Milan: It just it.
37:01
Chuck Milan: It took a while.
37:02
Chuck Milan: You know, artists have that information already, like in their iTunes yeah.
37:04
Chuck Milan: That tracks, that makes.
37:06
Chuck Milan: That makes a whole world of difference.
37:09
Dave Kropf: Yeah, and it kind of, and it kind of communicates to the sync agent that you're ready for business.
37:14
Dave Kropf: Right, you at least understand the business.
37:16
Dave Kropf: And if a contract gets put in front of you you're not going to kind of freak out oh, what do you mean?
37:21
Dave Kropf: You want 50% of the sync?
37:23
Dave Kropf: It's like, well, I mean, that's the business.
37:25
Dave Kropf: I remember my first library contract.
37:28
Dave Kropf: I signed, I didn't know anything, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know anything, I didn't know any any better.
37:32
Dave Kropf: And when the library asked for publishing shares, I was like, no, this is my music.
37:38
Dave Kropf: But if you, if you come to the table with things like your metadata, sorted out, things like like understanding the business, then you're telling them that you're ready, you're ready for business.
37:50
Dave Kropf: And so I know I totally get that.
37:52
Dave Kropf: Another question I had for you, for our listeners or viewers who might be interested in this what do you think makes a song sync friendly?
38:05
Chuck Milan: They like songs that kind of get the, let's say, easiest to understand short intros.
38:14
Chuck Milan: You know, I have one, one, one of my clients she has, uh, and she's you know anyway, she has really long intros.
38:24
Chuck Milan: I don't know how many measures two, three, four, five, six measures before she gets into the vocal.
38:29
Chuck Milan: And you know they don't want to.
38:31
Chuck Milan: You know they give, you know they give these, they give a listen to your track, like you know, 10, 15 seconds and you know they want to hear the, they want to hear the vocal, they want to hear the, you know chorus and all that really quickly.
38:45
Dave Kropf: So don't bore us, get to the chorus.
38:49
Chuck Milan: Yeah, doris, right, don't bore us, get to the chorus.
38:51
Chuck Milan: Yeah, doris Right, don't bore us.
38:52
Chuck Milan: First thing I learned when I worked for National Academy of Songwriters was don't bore us, doris, get to the chorus.
38:59
Dave Kropf: That's right.
39:00
Chuck Milan: And so that's really important, that it's kind of tight.
39:07
Chuck Milan: They said the track should be tight, avoid the long intros and keep it moving.
39:16
Chuck Milan: They like upbeat also.
39:19
Chuck Milan: It's good for sync and also for everything really they like upbeat.
39:31
Chuck Milan: There is some drama, but often they'll have composers do the score for you know the dramatic scenes, but sometimes they might want a slow song or singer, songwriter ballad or something like that.
39:44
Chuck Milan: You know, on some of the, some of the, some of the TV shows or films, sure, yeah, okay.
39:54
Dave Kropf: Lyrically.
39:54
Dave Kropf: Are there any lyric taboos or are there any tips you could give from a lyric perspective to make a song sync friendly.
40:04
Chuck Milan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there there is um uh, especially like in the in the hip hop world, especially like in the hip hop world.
40:12
Chuck Milan: You know they don't like.
40:13
Chuck Milan: What do you call it?
40:16
Dave Kropf: Like language and profanity.
40:17
Chuck Milan: Yeah, profanity, yeah, profanity is often a no-no and maybe excessive violence might be a no-no, if you know you don't want to talk about violence like I want to kill that guy or you don't want to mention.
40:31
Chuck Milan: You know sometimes we think those things but they're really.
40:31
Chuck Milan: You know you don't want to talk about violence like I want to kill that guy or you don't want to mention.
40:32
Chuck Milan: You know sometimes we think those things but they're really.
40:35
Chuck Milan: You know I ain't, you know, out of anger, but you don't put it in a, you can't put it you know real kind of explicit content, whether overly violent, overly sexual or overly violent overly sexual, yeah.
40:46
Chuck Milan: And they also say, uh, it's good to um, uh like, if you're creating uh songs for sync, uh, keep them a little more broad uh keep it broad like um, uh, if you know, like, like, don't you know, like, referring to a certain city or something, I mean if uh, or a circumstance, uh or um, or even religious too.
41:11
Chuck Milan: I heard a religious track last week and you know if they would just keep it broad.
41:17
Chuck Milan: You know, I know help will come my way.
41:20
Chuck Milan: Instead of saying I know God will help me, you know, just say I know help will arrive.
41:24
Chuck Milan: You know that sort of thing.
41:25
Chuck Milan: You know you don't want to put anything in there that might turn some people off.
41:33
Dave Kropf: Or even just limit its usage.
41:35
Dave Kropf: You know, because as soon as you mention God, then it can't be you.
41:38
Dave Kropf: You know you could take like a praise and worship song, right, yeah, you take a praise and worship song.
41:45
Chuck Milan: If you get praise and worship, you send it, and I've worked in that community.
41:49
Chuck Milan: You can, you know, send it to a crazier and work worship production yeah but otherwise, if you want a more generic uh, you know, if you want to have it on regular television, you might want to take out the uh, the god and the jesus and all that and um, or whatever uh, any kind of you know you want about it.
42:12
Chuck Milan: Take that out, just make it more.
42:14
Chuck Milan: I hate to say the word, but generic or universal.
42:19
Dave Kropf: Well, no, it makes it more.
42:21
Dave Kropf: I'll use a different word.
42:23
Dave Kropf: It makes it more flexible.
42:24
Dave Kropf: It makes it more flexible for an editor and this is something that production music composers do all the time for an editor, and this is something that production music composers do all the time.
42:32
Dave Kropf: There's a reason we write in largely four and eight bar chunks and then four, four or three, four, safe keys, safe tempos.
42:44
Dave Kropf: There's a reason we do that is because we need to make life easy for the editor.
42:45
Dave Kropf: And so if you have a really great song with good lyrics, that's flexible, that can be used to support somebody else's narrative, you know, in their storytelling, whether it's for commercial or for film or whatever, then that's a win-win.
42:59
Dave Kropf: And if you are a praise and worship songwriter, then, like you said, make an alternate version, you know, with maybe some lyrical tweaks, maybe, say you with a capital Y instead of God, and now suddenly you can interpret it kind of both ways.
43:13
Dave Kropf: But um, and I think it's just being really practical about it, you know, and if that, if that kind of trips your internal kind of oh no, that feels blasphemous or heretical or whatever, then maybe don't sorry, I don't not to put too fine a point on it, don't, don't try to pursue sync placements for your song yeah, the uh exactly, and um, I, that's why the uh one thing they look for lyrics and we embed them in.
43:42
Chuck Milan: Uh, I embed them in all the tracks for my clients if they're not already there.
43:46
Chuck Milan: You know, often the clients will.
43:47
Chuck Milan: Anyway, they're embedded in the metadata, the lyrics, and uh, often they will.
43:55
Chuck Milan: Especially the studios and networks they insist on having the lyrics to see what the song is about.
44:04
Chuck Milan: And because they don't, because they don't want any of that negative stuff that's going to say somebody that that they, that they were triggered and killed somebody because they heard something in a song.
44:15
Chuck Milan: There's been some lawsuits like that uh, somebody committed suicide because they heard some somebody else talking about talking about that in the song, and so you don't, um, so that's what they.
44:28
Chuck Milan: They insist on having lyrics for the songs.
44:31
Chuck Milan: They may look at the lyrics before they even listen to it.
44:33
Chuck Milan: Yeah, with metadata too.
44:35
Chuck Milan: I heard there's music supervisors now, before they even listen to your track, they can go right on whatever you know.
44:44
Chuck Milan: I know I use the disco platform, but there's also even on itunes or even, yeah, you can go on song info and check to see if the metadata is in there.
44:56
Dave Kropf: They'll look for copyright, you know, is there someone I can talk to about this, and they'll look at lyrics and see yeah, because yeah, there's too much heat, yeah, as soon as you start, you know, pushing your art into the intersection of Commerce, then these are all considerations that have to come to the table.
45:17
Dave Kropf: They, they have to.
45:18
Dave Kropf: Uh, and so I imagine you know Ice Cube has some of his music released in, in in video games or or like television commercials, and they're going to give them different versions you know of of his music.
45:32
Dave Kropf: I, the amigos and Cardi B, their music is in the Foot Locker commercial.
45:37
Dave Kropf: All right, they are not going to put the full lyrical content, and that's not a judgment call about that artist or that music by itself.
45:46
Dave Kropf: But as soon as you start saying, you know what, I want to use my thing to help sell shoes, my music to help sell shoes, then it's no longer about you and so all these things kind of come into play, come into play, yeah, so so if folks want to get in touch with you and I'm not sure you know, I don't know if, if, if folks, if you are listening or watching this and you think that maybe this is some space that you want to reach into, how could folks get in touch with you?
46:17
Dave Kropf: Chuck?
46:18
Chuck Milan: Well, they can just visit the website, as you mentioned, or reach out to me on LinkedIn.
46:24
Dave Kropf: Gotcha and we'll have those links in the description.
46:26
Dave Kropf: But if you are driving or listening to this out jogging or something like that, it's milan marketing dot net and we'll have links to that.
46:36
Dave Kropf: But uh, it's, it's a really fascinating space.
46:38
Dave Kropf: I I am eternally grateful to have you on the podcast because I I'm not a songwriter, I'm not a singer and I'm I'm always really, really impressed, like eternally impressed, by folks who can just conjure lyrics out of thin air.
46:54
Dave Kropf: Maybe people feel the same way about me, like playing drums or whatever, but I have so much respect for songwriters and I'm glad that we have folks like you who are helping them navigate this kind of commercial application of their music and helping to hopefully make a living making music.
47:13
Dave Kropf: But, chuck, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
47:16
Chuck Milan: You're welcome, dave.
47:17
Chuck Milan: My pleasure Great being with you, great to be here.
47:20
Dave Kropf: Once again, a huge word of thanks to Chuck for joining me today on the podcast and, as usual, we will have his links in the description below.
47:27
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47:37
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47:45
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48:00
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48:02
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48:08
Dave Kropf: But that is going to do it for us this week.
48:10
Dave Kropf: You definitely want to tune in next week, where I am joined by composer and producer and publisher and all around cool dude, timothy Andrew Edwards, who's going to tell us about balancing creativity and originality with just doing the reps, how do you balance multiple income streams and what about forming your own production music library?
48:34
Dave Kropf: So you definitely want to tune in next week, but I hope that you've had a great week 13, and I'm looking forward to hearing amazing things about your week 14.
48:43
Dave Kropf: How do I know it's going to be amazing?
48:46
Dave Kropf: Because I trust and believe that the universe has amazing plans just for you.
48:51
Dave Kropf: Until next time, peace.
48:55
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49:00
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49:06
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