Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 325 -If You See The Police

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 325 -If You See The Police · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know what he's up to.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: It's picking me like chicken, shocking me like corns, throwing
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: me like an ice.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: I don't I don't do sit ups, I don't do
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: chill ups.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I don't do.
• 0:19
  Speaker 4: Nothing but get up through them guts with my jawns on.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Bro, the hell did you talking about it?
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Then?
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Anybody?
• 0:29
  Speaker 5: I'm letting all y'all know my exercise is ving thighs.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Bro believe that.
• 0:35
  Speaker 5: Bro years up, Ben, your bees show beets and it's
• 0:45
  Speaker 5: Timer be Man and timer means and your beck. Then
• 0:49
  Speaker 5: you'll ride. I'm gonna mean, shr be.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Show bets and then Ben.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: And I'm mean and show be me showing a ride.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Fellow Joe kill.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: We and here we go.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: What's up everybody? Hopefully neither one of us commuted this week?
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: As we start off the show, Welcome to episode number
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: three hundred and twenty five. If you see the police
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Joe Warner brother, Okay, yeah, my brother's got a note.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: You know for sure? This week we're gonna be talking
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: about the three black gentlemen that we're on the fifth
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: floor at the time of the assassination, and twisting tale
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: of different stories and various other things. That I promise
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: we're gonna get into. But before we do, let's welcome
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: everybody in here. Joe. They started early, the line formed early,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: but we love to see it. We love to see
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: it for sure. Seen some familiar names. We haven't seen
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: it in a while. Welcome Paul, mister Paul. Vine's in
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: the house. Howdy Howdie. Zendar is up in the house.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: He's chicken up in Michigan. Apparently that's the thing. Claude,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Aunt you Dene are in the house. Jack is in
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: the house? Was up Jack Bungold? Hello, Scott. Scott is
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: in the house. Hello Scott, out for sixty six big mic,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: and also our condolence is out the big mic on
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: the passing of his uncle. Prayers are with you. My
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: friend Barton is in the house. It's a new one, Chris,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: you know, sleep to it last week. Well that's that's
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: not really a compliment, Chris. You know, I'd like to
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: think that our voices are a little bit more brisk
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: and brash than like Jim D. Eugenius, Like I used
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: to fall asleep listening to him talk. But I feel you.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's a bad thing, actually, and uh,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: I think Chris is from the United Kingdom, if I
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: remember correctly. And uh, sometimes I need to like listen
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: to things, whether it's true crime or JFK things, So
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: my mind moves so I get more tired and I
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: can go to bed like I always off.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: It's my all. I hear. His excuse is Joe, excuse
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: this excuse. I'm just saying I do it myself. So
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: I think it was across the pond. Sally is up
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: in the house. Was up?
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: Sally?
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Think so called it? Sally. I'm joking, Sally. Don't get
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: all pissy with me, Irish Sally. Uh, James is in
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: the house.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: What's up?
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: James? Trey of course is in the house, picking him
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: like chicken. South and West is in the house.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Hey, it's hot the West.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Colleen, our rocket queen, our resident rocket queen is in
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: the house. Joe, Welcome back, Colleen, Colleen, buddy, Greg Stewart,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: what's up?
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Greg, Cat, Doddy Steve in the house?
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I love this.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Ashley, what we got a full house?
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Oh? Tiny dancer slide And then the last minute, bueno
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: setta Joe, what is that little thing? I don't know
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: what that means? Is that a pie symbol. The hell
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: is that.
• 4:53
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: She'll have to explain it.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you need to explain yourself. A tiny dancer. Paul's
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: in the house. What's up, Paul? Hey man, I'm in
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: trouble keeping up with everybody here. Joe, I keep sliding
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: in on me.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: It's the place to be on a Friday night if
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: you want to talk.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: JFK, that is for sure.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: I see Sally Gregory Stewart, I think if you haven't
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: seen him.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Yes, I did see Greg, I said, what's up? See
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: my brother Greg Stewart, the world traveler. He's always all
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: over the damn place, going to many many shows that
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: we probably wish we were at, Joe, But that's all right.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: I'm glad Greg gets to experience it. Whoa good life.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: We have a new Spook level member. Oh, Zendar sixty one? Well,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: thank you, Zendar.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: That's awesome. Appreciate it.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, share your support. I would say appreciated, brother, but
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: I'm not. I don't. I'm not going to assume your
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: gender identity. Yes, you don't want to miss gender. I'm
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: guessing you know. Let's see, do we miss Garden and
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Gun somewhere? Are they here?
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: I saw her?
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: Earlier in the.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: The live comments. I actually think she was the first comment,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: but I'm sure she will pop in. If not, maybe
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: I missed her or someone said guard of the Guns Alot.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Well, welcome in. We may have missed you and anybody
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: else that we missed. We apologize. Keep flying in here
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: like like doves on the white snow.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, we appreciate your timing, strategic timing.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, for sure. All right, Joe, let's quit wasting
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: everybody's time and get right into the meat of the show, sir.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, before we do. Trey had a comment earlier, I know.
• 7:10
  Speaker 7: Uh.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: He said, we got into a great discussion on chicken
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: wings on our members only, and we did. We were
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: debating the different uh chicken wing ah kind of fast
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: food places in relation to.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Like Wingstop or Buffalo Wild Wings or churches, which I
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: had no idea what they were.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: And you were like, oh my.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: God, well that's not wings, that's fried chicken. Bro Okay,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: fried chicken. I'm sorry. They might have wings too, but
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: obviously they got that whole gamut of the chicken, you know, yes,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: the breasts.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: On the on the chicken juice. Yes, if you are
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: a remember you will definitely be able to or cover
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Operator super Spy. You'll be able to listen back on that.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: It was a spicy conversation pun intended.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Even more spicy. If you throw a little Silk City
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: up on that shit, you know what I'm saying.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: I set you up for that.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: You know you want to be like your boys, Go
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: get some Silk City in your life. You won't regret it,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: all right. So we're gonna be talking about pardon why
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Harold Norman, Charles Gibbons, Junior Jarman, and Bonnie Ray Williams
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: mainly this evening. Now you may ask why I include
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Charles Gibbons is because while not in this picture Joe
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: of folks on the fifth floor, you can see there's
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: one of these the open windows below the sixth floor
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: sniper alleged sniper window. There's one brother in each window
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: that's open, okay, And these are Harold Norman, Junior Jarman,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: and Bonnie Ray Williams. I believe Bonnie Ruy Williams is
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: in the second from the right, and I'm not sure
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: which is which on the either end, but.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: I think the left is uh Norman, the left might
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: actually be Bonnie Ray.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Hold No, he's in the second one. I know that
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: for sure.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Anyway, Oh yeah, he's in the second.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: They look very similar, but.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: You're trying to say, Joe all black guys.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Come on, man, I know I set myself off for that.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: When you see damn when you see both of them.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Here's here's a little bit more close up of the
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: three fellas we're going to be talking about here. This
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: is Bonnie, Ray, Harold in the middle, and Junior on
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the right.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, yep, yep, and at a big age discrepancy of
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: those folks that we'll be into.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, all right, So I'm gonna kick it off with
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Harold Norman okay, and then we'll bounce into Joe and
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: he's gonna bounce the ball back to me, and the
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna bounce it back to Joe, and then we're
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: gonna cap off this fantastic show that I already know
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: is gonna be with a little surprise for you folks. Really, Yeah,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: you remember what I what I played you at the
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: end of the last show. I do. Yeah, We're gonna
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: get into that a little bit because it pertains to
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: these guys HSDA testimony. But we'll get there, I promise. Okay.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: The interesting thing about Harold Norman Okay, and I'm sure
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Joe will get into this, But for whatever reason, Bonnie
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Ray Williams was arrested, Okay, on November twenty second, nineteen
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: sixty three. We have pictures of him getting put in
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: the back of the cop car right alongside Danny Arsay.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: We saw this, you know, the lad on the r
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: A episode. So for whatever reason, after the assassination, Bonnie
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Ray Williams was arrested, but not Norman, not Jarman. Okay,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Givens never reported back for roll call after the assassination.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: He just said, you know, fuck it, I'm not going
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: back to work, you know what I mean.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: And he arrest too.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Huh.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: He got arrested two as we'll get into.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, but I'm saying he wasn't the only one
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: missing from the alleged roll call, right. He said, you know,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: well Oswalden is the only guy missing. I'm missing a man, remember,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: truly said that. But uh, back to Harold Dean Norman. Okay, Now,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: what's interesting because I couldn't find any documents, Joe. I
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: couldn't find like any same day affidavits for the DPD
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: or the sheriff. The earliest document that I can find
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: for Harold Norman is from November twenty sixth and an
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: FBI interview. So why they didn't they you know, why
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: they didn't take this guy down to the station to
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: get a statement. I don't know. Maybe he dipped out
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: on him and they had to track him down. But
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: this is the first contact report that I have, and
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: it's an FBI report from like I said, November twenty sixth. So,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Harold Dean Norman employed as a shipping clerk at the
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: school Book Depository blah blah blah, blah blah. He and
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: fellow employees Junior Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams were watching
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: the presidential motorcade from the windows on the fifth floor
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: of the school Book Depository building. He stated that about
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: the time the car in which the president was riding
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: turned onto the Elm Street, he heard a shot. He
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: said he thought the shot had been fired from the
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: floor directly above him. No. He further stated, at that
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: time he stuck his head from the window and looked
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: up toward the roof, but could see nothing because small
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: particles of dirt were falling from above him. Into his eyes.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: He stated two additional shots were fired after he pulled
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: his head back in from the window, So there must
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: have been a pretty good pause between the first and
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: second shot. If you hear a first shot and you
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: reach your head out to try to look, and you
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: get a bunch of dirt shit in your eyes and
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: you pull back in, then the second shot rips off.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Either that or he's very a very quick head mover,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. He stated he could see
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: people walking toward the other end of the building. He
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: arm and Williams ran to the other end of the
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: room and looked out the windows there. He stated he
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: saw nothing, and then returned to the window from which
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: he had previously been looking. Now they all say some
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: form of this, right that after the shots they ran
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: to the west end of the building, the noll side,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: the nole side of the building, where there's windows there
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: that the look out into the railroad yard, because he
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: said that's where everybody was going. Now, why would you
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: do that if you distinctly heard a rifle shot and
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: then two more directly above your head. Does that make
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: any sense to anybody?
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: No, if you had some pebbles or whatever cement little
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: pieces fall on you. You'd be looking up, you wouldn't
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: be following the crowd. And I think that's what they said,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: the commotion on the Knowle side, which is why they
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: went over there.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but he said he distinctly heard a shot coming
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: from above.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: No, I know, I'm agreeing.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: It makes no sense.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and just want to say high Roger Rogers in
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: the house.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, Lee Harold Oswald in the house. Yes, our resident
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: music man. Yes.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Norman stated that he knew Lee Harvey Oswald as a
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: fellow employee and only talked to him when work required
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: him to. He stated he does not recall Oswald ever
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: having visitors at the school book Depository or ever associating
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: with anyone employed there.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: And that's going to be consistent, at least with the
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: two guys I'm covering. Uh, they said pretty much the
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: same thing. Kept to himself. And yeah, it's consistent with
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Oswald's character as we've been studying it over there.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: But as we'll also get into when we get to
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: jarm and Ah. When Oswald was in custody, he claimed
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: that he ate lunch in the Domino room with two
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: black guys. One of them was named junior. Okay, but
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: we'll get there, I promise, yeh. He further stated he
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: cannot recall whether he saw Oswald at the school Book
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Depository at all on Friday November twenty two, nineteen sixty three,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: which is funny. I mean, come on, bro seriously. But okay.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: So the next contact report we have is from the
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Secret Service, and this is from December fourth, okay, I
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Harold Norman wished to make the following statement to Special
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Agent William Carter and Arthur Blaine Blair, United States Secret Service.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: I am twenty five and I live at Bulah Street, Dallas, Texas.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: I do not have a telephone at my residence. I
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: have been employed as an order filler at the school
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Book Depository for three years at this point. I was
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: acquainted with Lee Oswald during the time that he was
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: employed at this company, but I never did get to
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: know him well. I have spoken to him briefly, just
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: to say hello or in connection with my work, but
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I never carried on any conversations with him. He did
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: not mix with the employees and did not appear to
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: want to make friends with me or any of the others.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I never saw him at any time other than in
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: the building at work on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: To the best of my memory, the last time I
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: saw him was about ten am when we were working
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: on the first floor of the building. I did not
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: speak to him at that time. Now, two weeks prior
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: to this, when he talked to the FBI, he said
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: he didn't see Oswald anywhere that day on November twenty second,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three. Now suddenly he's remembering that it was
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: about ten o'clock that he saw him on the first
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: floor very specific, Okay, around twelve fifteen pm on I'm sorry,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: it's very faded on this goddamn paper. On this same day,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: twelve fifteen, after I had eaten my lunch, I went
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: to the fifth floor of the building. Now that's implying
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: that he did not eat his lunch on the fifth floor,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: that he was elsewhere, like maybe in the Domino room. Yeah,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: with his buddy Junior and another guy that he probably
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: doesn't want to say that he was eating lunch with.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: But we'll get there. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: who also worked at this building, went with me. Okay,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Now this is important because this is where their statements
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: kind of don't match up, at least with Bonnie Ray.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: But Joe can get more into that. We took a
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: position in the south east corner of the building, on
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: the fifth floor, and I was looking out the window,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: which is closest to the east end of the building,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: overlooking Elma Street. Okay, so Norman was in the window
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: all the way on the right, right under Oswald allegedly right, Yeah, Okay,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: just after the President passed by, I heard a shot,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: knew that the shots had come from directly above me,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: and I could hear the expended cartridges falling to the floor. Now,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: there's some details that he's leaving out here, or that
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: he left out of his initial FBI report, and that's
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: the fact that he heard cartridges right hitting the floor,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: and he also doesn't mention sticking his head out the
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: window in this report. Yeah. I could also hear the
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: bolt action of the rifle, which he did not mention
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: in the FBI report. All right, so we're picking up
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: more details here, Okay, two weeks later.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's going to be a pattern as we
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: go through these.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Gentlemen here yeah, he said. I also saw some dust
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor, and I
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: above me. I saw all the people down the street
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: turn toward the west side of the building, so I
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: went to that side with Williams and Jarman and looked
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: out the west side windows. We discussed the shots and
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: where they had come from, and decided to go downstairs. Okay,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: you know, fuck going upstairs and seeing who's up there shooting, right,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: They're gonna go downstairs. We walked down the stairs to
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: the first floor. Apparently they did not take an elevator
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: to the first floor, did not see anyone else on
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: the stairway when we went down. From the time of
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: the shots until we started down, it was about five minutes.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: So they started going down the steps five minutes after
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: the shots, according to their rough time estimate, right twelve
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: thirty five ish, right, And they saw nobody on the
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: stairs at all at that time, not a surprise. But
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: apparently Doherty, Jack Doherty, was on the fifth floor, right,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: but he didn't see these three guys despite this, which
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: cracks me up. Hold on, let's see, yeah, okay, so
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: this is a picture of the fifth floor. All right,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot of shit on the floors, right,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: See how you couldn't see anybody else on the fifth
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: floor is insane to me because it's a lot of
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: empty space. I mean, look at this one. This is
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: how they were sitting, kneeling down on their knees looking
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: out the window. Okay, yeah, and this one this is
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: not their position nicely, but uh, you know, I think
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: it shows kind of the boxes and if there was
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: another person on this floor, I mean, you had to
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: see these three guys. I mean, they're all spread out.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: But Jack already says he didn't see anybody, and they
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: said that they never saw him or heard the elevator.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: So I don't know what the hell is going on
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: with that. But then the next time we hear from Norman,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: it is let's see a Secret Service report of the
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: investigation of employees of the Texas School Depository, And mysteriously,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, this is from February twenty fourth, sixty four.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: They're discussing the fact that Harold Norman left his job
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: his place of employment at the school Book Depository, effective
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: January first, nineteen sixty four. So despite having been employed
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: there for three years. Joe, suddenly there's all this shit
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: going on, so he quits. I did not know that. Yeah,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: let me get to the juicy bit. If there is
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: one here, it is.
• 24:43
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Investigation was conducted on February twenty fifth at Norman's present
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: place of employment, which was the Foxborough Company on Northwest
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Highway in Dallas. Investigation indicated that Norman started working at
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: the Foxborough Company on January second, for wade of two
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: hundred and sixty a month, which ain't too shabby.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: I think now times that by ten, I mean at least, uh,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: that's it's close to three grand a month.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let me do a little quick math. How much.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: You said two hundred and sixty dollars a month? I
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: want to pay that by ten and added a little
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Why would you want to play it by ten because
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: that's what the inflation rate conversion that we've the easy
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Oh oh, I got you.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sorry.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: I think in finance terms in my head, so I'm
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: trying to like.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: New Oswa was making a book twenty five an hour
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: times eight hours in a day, that's ten dollars a day.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: That's fifty bucks a week. Because that's two hundred bucks
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: a month. Yeah, and it's just got hired.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like twelve to fifty an hour today. Easy math,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of like minimum wage.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: I know, I'm just trying to compare it to a
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: monthly deal. So sorry, So that's ten ten dollars a
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: day fifty. Yeah, he's making two hundred a month. And
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Norman left his job that he'd been there for three years,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: he's gonna be two hundred and sixty a month. Okay, yeah,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: that's the ticket.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Wait, he left the TSBD January first, sixty four to
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: make sixty more dollars a month. That's compared to.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: What I'm saying is they hired Oswald as a temporary
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: worker in a buck twenty five. This dude had been
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: there three years. I'm sure he was making more than
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: a buck twenty five an hour, you would think so.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: But Norman was hired to replace a previous porter who
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: had died of a heart attack on December twenty seventh,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three. Further investigation that Norman does not own
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: an ultimobile, that he is, that he lives in a
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: negro housing project, and would not be commensurate with any
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: sudden affluence on the part of Norman. Since Norman left
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: the employee the school book Depository prior to January sixty four,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: and also due to the fact there's no indication that
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: he has shown evidence of undue affluence, he has not
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: been interviewed. An interview of Norman will be conducted if
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: requested by the Chief's office. This phase of the investigation
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: is closed, a tickler system will be set up relative
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: to periodic checks. Are the employees leaving their positions of
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: the school book Depository or coming into any undue affluence
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: as part of them that any employment at the school
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: book Depository? Okay, so they were checking to make sure
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: this dude didn't suddenly come into a bunch of money
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: because for whatever reason, despite the fact that Oswald was
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: already arrested for the crime and killed already, why are
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: they worried about anybody else in February of sixty four.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Leverage is my only guess, Leverage for what? For their
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: testimonies to the Wark Commission.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: No, I don't think.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: I'm saying it. You know, the as we'll get into, uh,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: these four African American gentlemen might have been easily uh
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: pressured to change their statements. So any part of that
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: could have been related to that pressure. I'm not saying
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: that that specifically is.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I do. Next we hear from this is
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: another looks like FBI document from March eighteenth, nineteen sixty four,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: where he's making another statement to the FBI. I, Harold
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Dean Norman, make the following, sorry, free involuntary statement to
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Raymond Fox and Jay Hale mcmanimon, who have identified themselves
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: to me as special agents of the FBI. I'm a
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: male Negro born July sixth, nineteen and thirty eight at Clarksville, Texas.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: I currently reside at four eight five eight Buleas Street
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: in Dallas, Texas. On November twenty second, nineteen sixty three,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: I was on the fifth floor the school Bok Depository building,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: where I was employed at that time. At about twelve
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: ten or twelve twenty, I was with James Jarman and
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Bonnie Ray Williams watching the motorcade burying President John F.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Kennedy past the school book Depository when I heard three
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: shots fired from I believe now it's a I think
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: the floor directly above me. At this time, I did
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: not see Lee Harvey Oswald and during the morning of
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, I didn't see no
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: strangers in the building. I left the building on November
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: twenty second at about two pm. With regard to James
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Jarmin and Bonnie Ray, I knew them to be employees
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: at the school Book Depository, but do not know their
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: residents addresses. I've read this statement off this in one
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: other page and it is true and correct. Signed Harold
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Dean Norman blobbedy blobbedy blah. Right now, this is interesting.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: So this is for the Warrant Commission. And this is
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: too Jay Lee Rankin from David Belin concerns Harold Norman.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: This is September nineteenth sixty four, so you've jumped significantly
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: more in time. And I believe at this point the
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Warrant Commission had already, if not already very closely released
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: their findings, right.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I think they were in April sixty four, so like
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: six months.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: And it says subject empty cartridge case experiments at the
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: school Book Depository building. Harold Norman, a TFBD employee who
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: was watching the motorcade, in an early FBI interview, claimed
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: that on November twenty second, he heard the sound of
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: bolt action rifle and the sound of the empty cartridge
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: dropping on the floor above him. And this is a
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: wrong statement. That was from a Secret Service document, not
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: an FBI document. The FBI document didn't say anything about
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: either one of those things unless they purposely out. I
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: don't know AnyWho to test the credibility of this witness.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: An experiment was conducted on March twentieth, nineteen sixty four,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: at the building. I was stationed by the windows at
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: the southeast corner of the fifth floor, where Norman Williams
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: and Jarman were. Mister Ball was at the assassination window
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: with Secret Service agent John Howlett, whom we requested to
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: provide a bolt action rifle and a cartridge case from
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: which to conduct the experiment. I distinctly heard the operation
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: of the boat as well as the sound from the
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: dropping of the cartridge cases. The floor seemed to act
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: as a sounding board for the cartridge cases as they hit.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: After the experiment, I went up to the sixth floor
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: and discovered that the cases used were not empty shells,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: but were rather live ammunition. So, of course, a whole
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: ass bullet is going to make a way different noise
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: is then an empty shell yep. On May ninth, nineteen
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: sixty four, I accompanied Senator Cooper, mister Dulles, and mister
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: McCloy to Dallas and noted or acted as a guide
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: so that they might view the scene of the assassination
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: and other relevant sites. At the time, another experiment was
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: conducted using a bolt action rifle and cartridge cases. The
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: only difference was that at this time actual empty cartridges
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: cases were used. The sound of each of the three
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: cases hitting the floor could be clearly heard and was
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: very familiar to the sound made by the cartridge shells
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: using this experiment conducted on March twentieth. These experiments were
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: referred to in Chapter three, page seven, along with the
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: experiments conducted on June seventh and September sixth. I do
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: not have any personal knowledge of what kind of shells
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: were used in the experiments conducted on June seventh and
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: September sixth, for I was not present. I am satisfied
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: in my own mind that the sound of empty cartridge
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: cases could be readily heard, and that because of the
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: similarity and sound between the falling of the empty cartridges
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: and the live ammunition the experiment on March twentieth was
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: a valid one. This is particularly true since at the
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: time of the March twentieth experiment there was a train
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: going over the Triple Overpass, and also the trucks in
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: the street, which Norman advised us, created greater noise than
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: existed on November twenty second. However, I think that the
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: record should somewhere show that the empty shells were not
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: used in the March twentieth experiment, and accordingly, I make
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: this statement for the record. So we don't know what
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: kind of shells they are, bullets they used, just random ones.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Does it make a difference, I don't know. Does a
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: man liquor carcano shells sound different than a thirty out
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: six shell or a fifty cows shell hitting the floor?
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Maybe you know what I.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Mean, Yeah, it's it's hard to tell the difference. And
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: you know, you could drop it from different heights. I mean,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: there's all a bunch of factors you could do to
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: kind of mess with the experiment.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah. So here's Harold Norman in an interview from
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: I believe it's nineteen sixty four talking to CBS News.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Here we go, We spoke first to this man, Harold Norman.
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: That particular morning three or four, was standing by the window,
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: and Ozma came over and he said, what's everybody looking at?
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: And what's everybody excited about?
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: It?
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: So we totally waiting on the president.
• 36:00
  Speaker 7: Snururged up and walked away.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: You know, well, how many shots did you hear?
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Three?
• 36:06
  Speaker 6: In how long a period of time?
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: Oh, I'd say this by like that, you know, and.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: And whom something similar to that.
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: And I think about that time, Well, German said, uh,
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: somebody shooting at the president. And I told German to
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: say I. I said, I know it is, I said,
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: because I can hear 'em. They are above me, and
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: I can hear the shots and everything. And uh I
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: could even not hear the after cartridges hitting the floor,
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: I mean after the shots have been fired. And uh
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: so uh after the shots were five? Well, uh, all
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: the officers and everyone else seemed to think that came
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: from by the track of about down the path, because
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: that's where everyone.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Ran over that a way.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: But uh, just like I said, I've been hunting enough
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: to know the sign of a rye from from a backfire,
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: firecracker anything like this.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Where am I here, So he doesn't mention at all
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: that he.
• 37:13
  Speaker 8: Along with Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams, ran to the
• 37:20
  Speaker 8: Noll's side of the fifth floor to kind of see
• 37:24
  Speaker 8: what the commotion was about.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Well, well, that's not the interesting part to me. The
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: interesting part is that he says that Oswald came up
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: to them and asked them what they were doing, and
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: they said they were waiting for the President to come
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: by in a parade. Now, I didn't say where this occurred.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming it was on the fifth floor. Could have
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: been on the first floor. I don't know, makes sense
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: if it was on the first floor, And I believe
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: some might say that as we get a little bit
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: more into this. But I'm going to hold off on
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Norman's HSCA testimony until the end because part of it
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: pertains to something else I want to talk about. But
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: we'll get there. I promise, nothing really crazy, too much
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: crazy in there about the going is on of that day.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: It's just there's something else in his HSCA testimony that
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: I want to address. But that's it for mister Norman. Joe,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: if you want to go ahead with whoever you're going
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: to talk about now.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, that would be mister Gibbons.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Mister Gibbons, mister.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Charles Douglas Gibbons. I know you love when I give the.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Charles, I got a twenty in my pocket givens, Yes, sir,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: all right.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: And this is actually before I start. This is part
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: of the same interview of the fifth floor guys that
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: you played with.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Norman is going to eat some nuts, man, I said,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: I have it here. You know what I'm saying.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Man, Yeah, all right.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Think even saw Oswald here on the sixth floor. But
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: he's standing about the middle way of the building.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: Uh, sixth floor.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Now what was he doing there?
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: While he was just standing there looking with his allers in.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: His hand, and what did you say?
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: Things? I have a same fella at lunchtime. He's going
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: downstairs and he said, now says, uh, close the gates
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: on the elevator when you get out, Well I will,
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: you know, connexcited won't to see the parade. So I
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: when I got outstairs, I really forgot it. I was
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: resting office went on out to life.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: This would be about what time, well, about one or
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: two minutes after twelve.
• 39:51
  Speaker 7: So the testimony from those who saw Oswald inside the
• 39:54
  Speaker 7: book depository is consistent.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: Uh not, so.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it's consistent. Ah oh man, but
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: of course that is what it would say.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: So let me bring up the and look, has anybody
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: ever ejected a shell out of a manly carcano? I'm
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: asking for a friend, because every every shell that I've
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: ever seen ejected out of a gun. Okay, if he's
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: crouched at the window, Okay, most of these shells were
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: found right under the fucking window sill. Okay, that shell
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: would have shot out of that gun, that rifle, you
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: know what I mean, and like at least you know,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: ten feet. I don't know. I've never ejected a cartridge
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: from a carcano, but every other shell that I've ever seen,
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: and I've gotten rid of it. You go flying and
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: on a wooden floor, it's going to be bouncing all
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: over the place, ping, ping, ping ping. You know. Yeah,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: you don't just fall out of the rifle and go
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: immediately straight down to the floor. You know what I'm saying.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: M hm. I'm guessing I've never shot a carcando, but
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing that there's some mechanism when you pull the
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: boat back and he ejects the shell like kicks it
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: out of there. You know what I mean, I could
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: be wrong if anybody's ever shot one. In the comments
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: let me know gardening guns yep.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: And I think I have a slide on Bonnie Ray
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: talking about that and Jarman's comment on hearing the shells
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: hit and the concrete or whatever fell on him. But yeah,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: I think so too, Jack. But I have a couple
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: comments before I start art Scott Edwards. Did anyone else
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: corroborate the debris and the hair claim? We will get
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: to that soon, like Rob says, we promise.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: Uh get Eddy. Steve said he shat one before and
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: they jump out far away. That's what I thought. I
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: figured that would kick them sons of bitches right out
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: of thing, like ten feet.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, thank you kat Eddy Steve. Chris said several witnesses
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: saw two people in the sixth floor window. Yes, when
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: we did whatever episode that was when we went over
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: some of the witnesses on.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: The west side of the building. Yeah, the rolands, Yeah yeah,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: And also I think we covered this last episode. The
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: window is so low down it's bullshit for a sniper.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: The boxes were too high. Yeah, you would have to
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: be in like a prone kind of laying down position
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: to really get a good shot.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: I think it was.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Like twelve to twenty four inches above the floor, a
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: one to two feet, that's what i've read today. I
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: know we talked about one feet.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Well, here's a real good where's my man kneeling at
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: the window? You see how far up the window is
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: off the floor. Yeah, so either you're on your knees,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: which is a very goddamn uncomfortable place to be for
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: extended period of time, right, or you're gonna sell in
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: your ass, right. Yeah, you can't stand and do this, right,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: So you either got to be on your belly, on
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: your butt, or on your knees. Belly's out because then
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: you be too low.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: I was about to say, I don't think belly would
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: even work.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: Unless you're laying on boxes or whatever. But you know that,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that didn't happen. But yeah, I mean to
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: be on your knees for that long shot, brutal. Yeah,
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: but that's how low the windows were. It's a good point.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: It's a good point. And those fifth floor windows were
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: wide open. If you look at this picture, yeah, yeah,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: look at the difference between the fifth floor windows that
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: are wide open and the sixth floor window above them
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: half open and the bottom pain yeah yeah, all right, sorry,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: go ahead.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And we talked about this on members only and
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: was the fifth or sixth floor a kind of misdirection?
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: And I think there was common earlier the seventh floor
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: was not accounted for. And that's I think what we
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: were kind of mentioning is, you know, all the attention
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: being on maybe the sixth floor and maybe part of
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: the fifth floor, But it makes a lot of sense
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: if you're talking about an intelligence operation that it would
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: be happening happening on a completely different floor, right.
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: And uh, Linda came in high Linda absolutely Why would
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: they run to the west end when they allegedly heard
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: shots directly above them, got dust in their hair, et cetera.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: I think it was an evolving story that was concocted.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: We concur yes, yeah, uh, and oh this is what
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Kata Deceive said, seventh floor and roof are mystery to
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: this day. That was what I was referring to, the
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: kind of misdirection.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Well, when when we like we covered in the truly episode,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: supposedly him and Marion Baker went straight to the straight
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: to the roof right which you could only access through
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: the seventh floor. There was no like direct elevator to
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: the roof. So they went up to the seventh floor
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: and the roof and looked upon the hurt sign, looked,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: you know, and didn't really see any good place for
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: a guman to be or be hiding, or any evidence
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: there was anybody shooting up there.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: And then.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: They went back down to the to the first floor
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: like so supposedly there wasn't anybody up there. But that's
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: if you believe truly in Baker, right. Uh, all right, so.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: We'll get into a little bit of Charles Givens. We
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: just heard a little bit from him. Uh and uh
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: I got five on it.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: H h.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: And of course, as is our process, rob oh, we
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: start at first day testimony.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: As early as possible.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is Charles Givens statement to the DPD on
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: November twenty second in the I think it was like
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: mid afternoon. They don't have a time.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Here, but well, now, hold on, Gibbons never came back
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: to work, so how did they get him wrapped up
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: and giving a twenty second statement?
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: He did not come back to work. Technically, he kind
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: of lingered around and then as we'll get to my
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: next slide, there was actually a DPD kind of like
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: IPB put out on him for also being missing from
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: more ap APB. I'm sorry, yes APB, thank you sir,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: and we'll get to that shortly. I appkay, But he says,
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: I work for the Texas school Book Depository ELM Street.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: I worked up on the sixth floor today until about
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: eleven thirty am. Then I went downstairs into the bathroom
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: at twelve o'clock. He took his lunch period, so he
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: was in the bathroom for about half an hour. That
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: chicken must have been really good.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Well, he wasn't the one eating chicken.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: I know, I know.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: I went to the parking lot at Record at ELM Street.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: I have a friend who works at the parking lot.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: We walked up to Maine and Record when the President
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: passed by. We then walked back to the parking lot
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: after the President had passed by. We had just got
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: back to the lot when we heard the shooting. I
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: think I heard three shots. I did not see anyone
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: in the building that was not supposed to be there
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: this morning. So, of course, his first statement says nothing
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: about Oswald says nothing about going back into the building
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: to get his cigarettes that were in his jacket or anything.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Nothing.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: And we won't see We're gonna go through a few
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: his statements. We're not going to see him come up
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: with that story until the warrant commission, right, but.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Hold on.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: So this is a DPD radio transcript log and at
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: one forty six pm dispatch said, we have a man
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: that we would like to have you pass this on
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: to CID Criminal Intelligence Division to see if he can
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: pick this man up. Charles Douglas Gibbons. He is a
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: colored male, thirty seven sixty three, one sixty five. He
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: is a reporter that worked on this floor up here.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: He has a police record, and he left. And the
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: interesting the thing about this rob is if you look
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: under where that dispatch was sent at one forty six
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: and above it, it's the exact time the DPD was
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: talking about someone hiding in the balcony right right, just
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: to give you context of when, uh, you know, this
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: APB kind of went out, which was six you know,
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: hour and fifteen minutes after right.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: So well, what's interesting is that you know they they
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: put out a general description of Oswald the man they're
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: looking for the man that what's his nuts said that
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: he saw up in the window. And they know they're
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: looking for a white guy.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: Brennan.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, a white guy, brown hair, about five nine,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty five pounds. Definitely didn't say it
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: was black. So why are they said, worried about finding
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: this black guy.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it was like
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: due diligence, as like who else is missing? But they,
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: as we discussed last episode, truly was very was much
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: more concerned with Oswalt.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: But they truly told the police there's only one man
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: missing in Lee Oswald.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, and as we covered last episode, he had seen
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Oswalt on the second floor encounter collectively much and he
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: saw Givens when he saw him out on Elm or
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Houston or wherever did he see him outside? Yeah, truly
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: saw Gibvens outside of the building. It I believe, yes, yes, yes, yes,
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: I believe we went.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: How long had Givens worked there?
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: About the same time as Fraser September hmm. And we
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: will get into why they might have had leverage on
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: this fella. So we of course will go to the
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: next day statement or actually so. Charles Gibbons gives a
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: statement to the FBI later that day, so the first
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: statement was to DPD later in the afternoon. He is
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: still in custody. He gives a statement to the FBI.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: It says eleven twenty three, but the date of the
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: interview is twenty two. The report date is twenty three.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: Charles Gibbons advised he was employed at TSBD Houston Elm
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: from October first, sixty three to present time, so a
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: little less than two months. Givens said he had worked
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: at this same position as a rapper on several occasions
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: prior to this employment. I'm sorry, go ahead, a rapper
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: and I have a statement on this because we had
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: talked about and they saw I'd like to smoke we.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: He did.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: He did.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: On November twenty second, sixty three. Givens worked on the
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: sixth floor of the building until about eleven thirty am,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: when he used the elevator to travel to the first floor,
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: where he used the restroom at about eleven Yes and D.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Gibbons then walked around the first floor until twelve o'clock noon,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: at which time he walked onto the sidewalk and stood
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: for several minutes, then walked to the classified parking lot inthroom.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: For thirty minutes. They thought I was pooping, but a pee.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: He's saying twenty five to twenty minutes here, So there's
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: some discrepancy of how long he was.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Playing on his phone. So I leave the man alone.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Hey, that's people like to do that. But I had
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: my cross, were a puzzle man. Maybe he was a
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: time traveler. He had an iPhone back. Never know, anything
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: is possible in this case. Uh. Gibvens then walked to
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Main Street to watch the parade, and after the president
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: and the group had passed, he walked back to the
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: parking lot, at which time he had heard several shots
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: fired from the direction of the building at which he
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: is employed. He attempted to return to work, but was
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: told by a police officer.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: I'm adding that but.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: That he had been released for the balance of the day.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: So that is kind of what Givens is saying, is
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: that he tried to go back in but was not
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: allowed to and that's why he left. Givens advised that
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: a white male known as Lee was employed in the
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: same building and worked as a rapper and an order filler.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: He said he saw the same person's picture on television
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: on the afternoon of November twenty second. He was supposed
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: to be to have been the person being investigated for
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: the shooting of the president. Lee worked on all floors
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: of the build, and on November twenty second, Givens recalled
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: observing Lee working on the fifth floor during the morning
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: filling out orders. Lee was standing by the elevator in
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: the building at eleven thirty am when Gibvens went to
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: the first floor. When he started down in the elevator,
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Lee yelled at him to close the gates on the
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: elevator so that he Lee could have the elevator returned
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: to the sixth floor. Givens said that during the past
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: few days Lee had commented that he rode to work
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: with a boy named Wesley. And we'll get into this,
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: but there was some elevator We got into this a
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: little bit last week with the elevators. But there was
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: an elevator race down after the floor crew was given
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: their lunch break, and Oswald, of course, being the nonconformist,
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: didn't run to the elevators, the Eastern West elevators to
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: participate in this race.
• 56:10
  Speaker 9: I when I say your reindeer gains boys exactly, yeah,
• 56:15
  Speaker 9: and then a couple people testified that he yelled down
• 56:22
  Speaker 9: to say leave the.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: You know, the gate opened or closed so that the
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: elevator can come back up. Given said that all employees
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: enter the back door of the building when Jack Doherty,
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: the foreman, opens the door. At seven pm on the
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: morning of November twenty second, Givens observed Lee reading the
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: newspaper in the Domino room where the employees eight lunch,
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: around eleven fifty a m. So, about twenty fifteen to
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: twenty minutes after they had this race down the elevator
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: where Lee was left up on the six four, but
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: it could have been the fifth two. He's down there
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: a few minutes later eating lunch, and we're gonna see
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: a couple of people who said this actually. So now
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: we're going to jump from the weekend to the assassination
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: to his next statement of mister Charles Gibbons to the
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: FBI on November thirteenth, nineteen sixty four. What is that
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: February that's to thirteen. Yeah, you said nomber, Oh my god, sorry, yes,
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: thank you, February thirteenth.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you have the wrong header up there.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, I do I do have that wrong yet, thank you, sir.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: That is February thirteenth, sixty four, Lieutenant Jack Vell, Special
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: Service Bureau DPD advice he knows of no witness being
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: held in protective custody by any agency with the assassination
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: of the president. So there was some news article that
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: came out that said someone was being held in protective
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: custody custody some negro.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: I don't believe that's the word they used, Joe, but
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: better that one than the one they did use. Yeah,
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: well we are on YouTube here, sir. Yeah, that's the
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: thair Waldo article from Houston. I believe it was and
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: fort Worth Yeah for Start Telegram. If you don't know,
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: now you know, I did not know the name of
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: that the author.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: But Ravel based this opinion on the fact that he
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: saw Charles Gibbons after the assassination and turned him over
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: to Captain wil Fritz on Homicide and Robbery Bureau DPD
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: for an interview. He stated that Givens had been previously
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: handled by the Special Service Bureau on a marijuana charge,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: and he believes that Gibvens would change his story for money.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: So here's revel in mid February sixty four, like three
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: months after or to save his own ass Yeah, yeah,
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: saying that it is in his opinion that Gibvens would
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: change his testimony for money, and this is of course
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: based on a couple of marijuana charges he had before.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: He stated it was since understanding that when Gibbons was
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: interviewed immediately after the assassination, he stated he was not
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: in the building at the time of the assassination.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: We know that, yes, So.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: Now going on to March eighth, sixty four, which is
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: when mister Bielin was in Texas interviewing a bunch of the.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: TSBD workers.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: Like we had talked about last episode, a lot of
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: the people were former World War Two veterans. Mister Gibbons
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: was as well. He was actually thirty eight or thirty seven,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: but thirty eight at the time of the warrant commission.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: At the time of the assassination, Norman you said, was
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: twenty five. We'll get to Bonnie Ray, but he was
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: twenty or nineteen. So they had particular specific kind of leverage.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: On this guy for his past.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: Discretions, indiscretions and going to his warrant commission testimony. One time,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: mister Gibbon says, I got into a little difficulty, got
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: me in a little trouble, and they're talking about his
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: work history here, mister Bilan, you got in a little
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: trouble question mark. Yes, So instead of mister Bulan asking
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: about that trouble, he goes right on, all right, so
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: you were not working for a while, yes, sir? How
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: long was that? Thirteen months?
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: So it would be you know, I mean he had
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: he had.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: A significant job gap before he went to the TSBD,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: which makes you think that he would have been one
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: of those witnesses that could have been leaned on because
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: he was desperate for work, and he did have a
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: criminal history, despite it being from marijuana, which of course
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: today would not be in the sixties in Texas. Yeah,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: how long have you worked there, mister Gibbons on and off?
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: About six years? Was there any period of time where
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: you haven't worked there?
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: What happened then? Well, I just you know, sometimes I
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: had some days off to lay off during the slack
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: season like it is now, and when it is rest season,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: he calls you back. So we were talking about the
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: seasonal aspect of the employees of the TSBD Gibvens was
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: one of those seasonal employees. He was hired when they
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: needed help and did it for six years on and off,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: but was not a permanent employee.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: Right, So interesting in the navy.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And continuing with his warrant commissioned testimony here all right,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: So now they're asking about Oswalt. So you saw Oswalt
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: eight thirty am on the first floor, mister Gibbons, Yes, sir,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: Then what did you do? We went back upstairs and
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: started to work through. You went back up to the
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: sixth floor to continue laying the floor, laying the pipe,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: mister Gibbons. When did you see Lee Harvey Oswalt next?
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: Next?
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, well it was about a quarter till twelve. We
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: were on our way down stairs and we passed him
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: and he was standing at the gate on the fifth floor.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: I came downstairs and I discovered I left my cigarettes
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: and my jacket pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: back upstairs to get my jacket with my cigarettes in it.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: floor in that vicinity, coming from that way. Coming from
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: one way, mister Balen asks Givens towards the window up
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: front where the shots were fired from.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: I think he's got his floors mixed up here. He might.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: He says, just a second, where did you go? Beilan
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: is confused to where were you when the shots when
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: you saw him on the sixth floor. I went and
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: got my jacket and was on my way back to
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: the elevator. So, of course, as we mentioned, Charles Gibbons
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: didn't mention anything in his initial day statement to the DPD.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Nothing about going back up to the sixth floor and
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: seeing Oswald. Nothing hold on.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Was thing here.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: On the next day when he took the when he
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: gave the interview to the FBI, he did not say
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: that either. On December second, sixty three, he was interviewed
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: by the Secret Service, he did not say that as well.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: December ninth, sixty three. Another FBI report February thirteenth ravel
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: talks about him, and still no hint about the cigarettes.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: For twenty fifth Warren Commission, lawyers Ball and Beilan complete
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: a first joint report summarizing the evidence known by that date.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: No descreptioncies as to the time of Givens' departure or
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: cigarettes or going back up to the sixth floor. Were
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: spoken in March eighteenth, sixty four. Affid David Gibbons also
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: did not mention the cigarettes, and it was only until
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: April eighth sixty four. I think that's one for like
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: seven interviews after that is when he first uh talks
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: about the going back up to the sixth floor, seeing
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: Lee so close to Uh yeah, yeah, so and and
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: when you and when you consider all the crazy discrepancies
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: and inconsistencies in the story, uh.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: Give because they said, okay, so they went downstairs, they
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: raced down on the elevators, right, Given says, oh ship,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: I left my cigarettes the back of there. In the meantime,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: Oswald yelled down at him, a send the elevator back
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: up to the fifth floor, right, mm hmmm. So if
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: they did that, how was the elevator still in the
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: first floor. Maybe they didn't send it back up immediately.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know. But so he says, he goes back
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: up to the sixth floor get his cigarettes. At that point, Okay,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: the elevators back up there, and if Oswald's still up
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: there and he think that he would come back down with.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Given, yeah, yeah for sure.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: But but if that happened, I guarantee you one thing,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: given ain't saying.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: That or or the couple people that we will talk
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: about that saw him in the Domino room around noon,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: and I think I have three of those corroborating statements
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: on seeing Oswalt down there at around noon. So he
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: did make it down there, and you could see Oswalt like,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: I'm not taking part in these games, these elevator races games, right,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: and I'm just gonna make my own way down there, right.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: It fits his character what he would do. Yeah, I
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: haven't been checking on the comments, but I'll continue here, but.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, since the answer for the elevator to be
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: sent back up to him and then here comes Gibvens
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: back up to get a cigarettes, you would think Gibvens say, hey, man,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: you know you ready to go back down? You want
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: to come back down with me, But that's never said.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: Yep, yep. So, mister Belan continues, You saw Lee Oswalt
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: on the sixth floor around eleven fifty five, givens, right, Bilan,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: did you see Oswalt anywhere else in the building between
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: eleven fifty five and the time he left? No, sir, No,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: November twenty second, No, sir, did you see Domino room No,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: and kind of Givens kind of continues his uh that
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: was yeah, were is probably a pressured testimony here, I
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: see nothing. Yeah, and uh let's just see.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: So he talks about hearing the shots and going back
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: over to Houston and ELM. Everyone was running. I asked
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: some fellow, white fellow. I asked some white fellow, what happened?
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: Someone shot the president? Somebody shot the president. So Givens
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: stood there for a while, went over to try to
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: get to the building after they found out the shots
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: came from there.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: And went.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: To try to get back in the building, but the
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: officer at the door of the TSBD would not let
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: him in. Did you tell him you worked there? Feeling,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: asked Gibbons. Yes, but he still wouldn't let me in.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: So I goes back over to the parking lot and
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: I wait and I seen Junia is that jobman? Yes,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: they were on their way home and told me that
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: they let them all go home for the evening, and
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: I said, I'd better go back and get my.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: Hat and coat despite not being let in the building. Yeah,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: so two minutes before that. But I'm gonna go back
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: and get my hat and coat, even though they just
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: wouldn't let me in.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: I think this is them giving an excuse as to
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: why he was missing during the roll call, right when
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: they realized Oswalt was the only one missing, when of
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: course Givens was, and I think there was someone else
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: that was at a dentist appointment.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they didn't lock the building down for like
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: ten or fifteen minutes after the shots. There was all
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: kinds of people going in and out of that building. Yeah,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: And if he was a couple of blocks away he
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: heard the shots and then came on back to the
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: back to work, he probably would have made it in
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: ten or fifteen minutes.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's just a running cover for
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: for why he was absent during the roll call.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they were they supposed to the Victoria Adams
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: and Sanders styles back in the building. You know, they
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: had these reporters that don't even work there going in
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: the building. You have military intelligence, they don't work there,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: going in the building to make phone calls. James Powell. Yeah,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: so you got all these all these people going in
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: and out of the building. They didn't lock it down
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: for like ten or fifteen minutes because they didn't really
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: realize that because apparently after Marion Baker went up to
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: the seventh floor truly and came and came, they came
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: back down to the first floor, he bounced, He went
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: out and got on his motorcycle and headed to Parkland.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the roll call didn't happen. I read to until
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: about one thirty, and that's an hour after the shot,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: right right. And I listen if I was working there
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: and that happened, and people were like, yo, they let
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: us go for the day, like I'd be out screw this.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not staying here, like you couldn't catch me there
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: to like spend hours in the police station or whatever,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like, So, I think that
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: is running cover for his for Oswalt being the only
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: person missing. Right, let me find where I was because
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: I missed my spot. Okay, how many shots did you hear?
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: Givens three? What did you do when you heard them? Well,
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: we broke and ran down that way, and by the
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: time we got to the corner there Houston Elm, everyone
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: was running going towards the underpass over there by the
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: railroad tracks, and.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: We asked.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: Another Oh wait, shit, I read that already somebody shot
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: the president. Yeah, I lost my spot. But so Jarman's
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: testimony was significantly changed from let me bring this up
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: back here from his November twenty second initial.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: Statement to.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: The twenty third to then December ninth, February thirteenth, February
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: twenty fifth, March eighteenth, April eighth warrant commission. And they
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: actually go back and testify him or interview him again
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: on September twenty at sixty four to kind of nail
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: down some inconsistent season the story. And of course the
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: time changes a few minutes towards their narrative right of
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: seeing Oswalt on the sixth floor.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: But uh, you know, I should probably say also, Joe,
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: that they flew these three guys to Washington, d C.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: To take their testimony. They didn't do it in Dallas
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: like the rest of the employees. So for some reason,
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: they flew these guys to d C like first class.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, mhm, yeah, yeah, kind of uh,
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: you know, courage, some favor, Right, this is the life.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: Why why would I go against the narrative when I'm
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: being put up in a hotel? And yeah, if we
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: say what they wanted to ship. Yes, so, uh that
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: is something. Wh that is some of the statements of Givens.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: I don't think he testified to the HCA. I could
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: be wrong about that. I didn't see it in my search.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: If I'm wrong, I'll correct it next episode. But Charles Gibbons,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: and of course he was the elder thirty seven at
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: the time.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, so big fan of the ganjas As are.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: All right, Ball's back in your courts.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: Now we're going to James Earle Magic Jarman throwing in
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: the magic there otherwise known as Junior Okay, and this
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: cat is thirty three years old Okay, lived on Atlanta
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: Street in Dallas, and his first testimony of anything is
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: a city or I'm sorry, is a county of Dallas.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: So this is to the Sheriff's Department on November twenty third. Okay,
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: Junior Jarman, here we go. I worked for the Texas
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: Book Depository blah blah blah, Elm Street as a checker
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: on the first floor for mister broy S. Truly. On Friday,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: November twenty second, I got to work at eighth five am.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday was
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: about eight fifteen am. He was filling orders already on
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: the first floor. A little after nine am, Lee Oswald
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: asked me what all the people were doing standing in
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: the street. I told him that the President was supposed
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me,
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: which way do you think he coming. I told him
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: that the President would probably come down Main Street and
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: turn on Houston and then go down. He said, yes,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: I see. I only talked with him for about three
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: or four minutes, which is a pretty long time for
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: somebody who didn't talk to people. Last time I saw
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: him that day was between eleven thirty and noon, when
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: he was taking the excuse me elevator upstairs to go
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: get some boxes. At about eleven forty five, all the
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: employees who were working on the sixth floor came downstairs
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: and we were all out on the street at about
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: twelve o'clock noon. These employees were Bill Shelley, Charles Givens,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: who actually was not there, Billy Love, Lady, Bonnie Ray.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, Bonnie Ray is all over to goddamn place.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: He's on the fifth floor. He's out front of the
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: school depository. He's up on the sixth floor, and the
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: chicken sandwich and I mean, god damn. Plus he had
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: to leave to get the chicken and a Spanish boy,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: which would be Danny Arsey his name I can't remember.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: To my knowledge, Lee Oswald was not with us while
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: we were watching the parade. Now, he doesn't mention nothing
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: about being on the fifth floor, okay, of the School
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: of Depository at the time of the assassination. He says,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: we were all out on the street at about twelve o'clock.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: Blah blah blah, blah blah. To my knowledge, Lee Oswald
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: was not with us while we were watching the parade.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: How does that work? Thanks, Greg, appreciate it, brother, you
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: are the man. Sorry, thank you, Sean. Maybe we can
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: go get a vape later, Joe and get all given stuff.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: So that's an odd statement to be making the day
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: after the assassination and you don't say you were on
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: the fifth floor or who you were watching it with.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's very weird, very weird. Now, the next
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: time he's interviewed is by the FBI on November the
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: twenty fourth, which is the day after he gave this
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: statement to the sheriff right Sunday. Yeah, uh, James Jarman
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: advised he formerly resided at blah blah blah blah blah,
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: currently employed at blah blah blah. He stated that he
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: knewly Oswald only casually through their mutual employment with the
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: School of Depository Joseph's. From what he could observe, Oswald
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: was not particularly well acquainted with anyone employed as to TSBD.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: He said that no one could seem to get acquainted
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: with Oswald, and that he himself had never talked to
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: Oswald sufficiently to draw any conclusion as to Oswald's thoughts, aspirations,
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: or attitudes. He noted that Oswald worked as an order
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: filler on the first floor of the building occupied by
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: the TSBD, but then he had access to every floor
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: of the building and the course of carrying out his
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: duties as an order filler, He said he observed Oswald
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: reading on a number of occasions, but he did not
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: know the nature of the literature being read by Oswalt.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: He believed it consisted of old newspapers, paperbacks, and possibly
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: other forms of literature, probably Communist literature.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: Joe, it was actually a paper, but a day old.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: Because Oswalt did not want to buy the paper on
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: that day, Yeah, he read the paper the day after, like.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: There's not news at that point, that's history. He stated
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: that on November twenty second, he observed Oswald on the
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: first floor the school book Depository building around eight fifteen.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: He stated Oswald had filled in order for books that
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: was not correct, and that he himself had told Oswald
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: to go back and get the right motherfucking books insomuch
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: as he himself is in order to check her. Okay, now,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: this is totally different than we've heard from truly and
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: Fraser and everybody. They always said that Oswald was damn
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: near one hundred percent, that he called on very quickly.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: It's not rocket science, and he was very good at
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: doing his job right. But on this day, Joe, on
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: this day he fucked up.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: Is that because he had something else on his mind?
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: Is that what they're trying to say? Is that what
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: they're trying to say? I think possibly? Yeah, I think
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: he was so caught up with the motorcade he couldn't
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: build his book orders. Yeah, hard to do with a
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: rifle down in your pants. Let's see where are we here?
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: He said he next saw Oswald at nine a m.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: Or possibly a little later. Jarman said Oswald looked out
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: the window and observed that people were gathering outside and
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: asked him why they were there. Jarmon told him the
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: President was supposed to come that way sometime that morning.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: He said that Oswald asked him which way the procession
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: will be going, and Jarmen told him he thought it
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: would probably be going down Main Street, turning on Houston
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: and then on him. He said he next saw Oswald
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: between eleven thirty and noon, when Oswald was taking the
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: elevator to an upper floor, at which time they had
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: no conversation. Oswald had an order filler pad. Jarman said
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: that as the President passed by, he himself was watching
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: the procession from a fifth floor window of the school
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: Book Depository building. That he was in the third window
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: from the east side of the building, which was located
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: in front of the building, overlooking the procession. He stated
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: that two other employees, Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray last
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: name unknown, were in the first window from the east
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: side of the building, two windows away from him, from
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: which vantage point they were viewing the procession. He said
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: that he heard a shot and then he saw President
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: Kennedy move his right hand up to his head, and
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: after in a lapse of three or four seconds, heard
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: a second shot, and then the vehicle bearing Kennedy sped up,
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: speed it up, and he was unable to observe any
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: more about the presidential vehicle. He said a third shot
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: was heard by him closely following the second shot, possibly
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: within a second or two Afterwards. He said these shots
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: sounded to him to be too loud to have been
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: anywhere outside the school book Depository building. Jarmon said that
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: he and Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray went to the
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: west side of the building on the fifth floor, where
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: they discussed the shots. He said they decided the shots
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: had come from inside the building because they were too
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: loud to have come from outside the building. He said
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: that Norman stayed at the time that something had fallen
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: from above him and a piece of debris. In addition,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: it had hit him in the face. That his window
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: was open at the time where he was viewing the
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: procession below, so now it goes from getting dust in
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: his eyes and now he got a piece of debris
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: hit him in the face right. Jarmon said that he
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: did not see Oswald again and had not seen him
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: since the motorcade passed the building. He said also he
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: did not see Oswald at the start of the work
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: day on November twenty second, pointing out that Oswald normally
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: got to work in advance of him, the fact that
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: a day earlier he told the sheriff that he saw
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: Oswald at eight o five in the morning. Okay, so,
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: why oh why is this story changing? Is it because
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: they suddenly have a picture of these three guys hanging
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: out the windows of the fifth floor of the building.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: Because I'm not a rocket scientist and I don't claim
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: to play one on TV or on YouTube. But okay,
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: if if me and my two buddies are hanging out
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: on the fifth floor of the building and the shots
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: allegedly came from the sixth floor of the building right
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: right above them, and they don't catch anybody right away,
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: And I'm a black guy in nineteen sixty three with
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: two other black guys and nobody else around to say that, hey,
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: those guys are cool. They didn't do nothing. You better
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: believe they didn't admit to being on the fifth floor
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: on that first day until they probably figured out that
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: somebody got a picture of them, and they said, well,
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: you know, you weren't out front. Here's a picture of
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: you in the window, you know, from from Tom Dillard here,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: So that story changed very quickly, Joe. Yeah.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: And I don't think any of the.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: I don't think any of the four were talking about.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: Said that they felt any type of debris fall on
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: them first day or second day. I could be wrong.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: I have to go back and look at Norman. When
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: that one went to normal, I think it was. It
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: was definitely after this one, Yeah, because they didn't talk
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: to Norman until the twenty sixth. But I don't think
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: you said that until the December December interview, okay, and
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: the next up December fifth. James Jarman is the FBI
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: now talking to him. Advised that he is currently employed
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: at the School of Depository and then he newly Harvey
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: Oswald only casually now only casually, of course, through their
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: mutual employment. Jarman advised that he could not recall what
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: type of clothing he was wearing, despite having talked to
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: him for three or four minutes and seen him at
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: various points throughout the day, okay, but that Oswald usually
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: worked in a white T shirt. He stated that there
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: was a dressing room on the first floor of the
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: School of Depository, where the employees could change their clothes
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: or leave their shirts when they commenced to work or
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: during working hours. He said that when Oswald worked in
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: a T shirt, Oswald usually had a regular shirt. In
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: the dressing room, Jarman was showing a Russ brown sports
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: shirt with a hole in the right sleeve, which, according
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: to the arresting officers, was being worn by Oswald at
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: the time of his arrest. Drummond stated that the above
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: described shirt was vaguely familiar to him, Joe, vaguely familiar,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: but he could not be one hundred percent certain if
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: this shirt was worn by Oswald or brought with him
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: to work on the twenty second of November. But it
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: looked vaguely familiar, but I can't say for certain. Next
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: up December twenty third, another FBI conversation, he stated that
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: prior to his time, I'm sorry, prior to the time
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: that Jack Ruby shot Oswald on the twenty fourth, he
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: had never known Jack Ruby, and he had no information
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: to reflect that there was any connection between Ruby and Oswald,
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: and that was a great source to ask for that. Yeah,
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: that's the twenty third. Merry Christmas Junior, next time they
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: talk to him another FBI. But there, this guy's asked
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: January fourteenth.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have to ask why so many FBI
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: interviews If everything's going to stay the same.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: Oswald's already dead and they pinned it on him. It's
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: done right, So why are they still talking to these motherbuckers?
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: I think it's because they're trying to move.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 10: The timeline of they're doing something of either the elevator
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 10: race or or when given saw oswalt on the sixth floor,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 10: or when uh like we'll say, like Bonnie Ray Williams finished, see.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: But the FBI come and knocking on your door every
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: two weeks want to ask you more questions like look, man,
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: you know I've done told you everything. I know why
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: you keep coming here. We just have a couple more questions, sir,
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: Look man, what do you want me to say?
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see that out on thee too. James
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: Earl jarmon I said this is from January fourteenth, known
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: as Junior advised that he resigned at blah blah blah.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: He's employed it to blahlah blah blah. He said that
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: he and Hank, which is Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: Williams were all employed at the School of Depository blah
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: blah blah on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three. He
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: said that he and the other two boys eight lunch
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: on the first floor around noon on November twenty second,
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: sixty three, and that shortly afterwards went to the fifth
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: floor at twelve twenty five pm on the west elevator
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: in the building in order to watch the president of parade.
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: He said they stayed there until they heard the sound
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: of shots, then they went downstairs. He said that Ray
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: and Norman were with him all the time he was
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: on the first floor, and they did not see Lee
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald at any time between noon until they returned
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: to the first floor after the shooting. Jarman advised that
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: Norman is no longer employed there, but he thinks he
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: still resides at Buela. Now this is interesting, Joe, because
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: now we suddenly have the revelation. Okay, Jarmon is now
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: stating that Williams, Bonnie Ray, and Norman were with him
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: the entire time that they were on the first floor
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: from twelve noon until shortly afterwards went to the fifth
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: floor about twelve twenty five pm. And we know that's
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: a lie because Bonnie Ray Williams sat upstairs on the
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: sixth floor by himself and ate his chicken sandwich, drank
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: his Doctor pepper and smoked his viceroys and then went
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: down the fifth floor. So why is he lying saying
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: that Williams was with him the entire time. He's giving
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: Williams an alibi, right, And I'm not saying Williams did
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: anything nefarious. I'm just saying he's protecting a brother. Because
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: it don't look good if you're Bonnie Ray Williams and
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: you're on the sixth floor at twelve twenty five, okay,
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: because that's allegedly five minutes before the shots rang out
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: on the sixth floor. So that ain't a good look.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you didn't see anything or you're complicit.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's interesting. And then the next time is
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: March twelfth, and this is for the Warrant Commission. It's
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: to jayly Rankin from Melvin Eisenberg, subject identity of ass Assen.
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: He says, I think a thorough investigations should be run
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: on TSBD employee Jack Doherty. On the morning of November
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: twenty second, Doherty was part of a crew laying a
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: new floor on the sixth floor. This crew consisted of
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: Danny RSA. Doherty, Gibbons Junior Jarman, Billy Lovelady, and Bonnie
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: Ray Williams, all regular employees in the school book Depository,
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: shipping and order filling department. They were apparently working under
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: the direction of William Shelley, the senior employee in that department,
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: and he'd written statement to Dallas police. Doherty gave the
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: following story. On the morning of the twenty second. He
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: had worked with the floor lane crew until twelve o'clock,
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: when he went down to the first floor to eat
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: his lunch. After lunch, he returned to work on the
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: sixth floor and then went down to the fifth floor
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: to get some stock when he heard shot, which sounded
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: if it had come from inside the building. He then
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: went back down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper,
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: the janitor, whether Piper hear anything. Piper said yes, he
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: heard three shots. Doherty then returned to the sixth floor.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he went back to work at like twelve forty five, Like, yeah,
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: you're gonna go back to work.
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: After this, Yeah, or something, he said. Special Agent Blake
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: the Secret Service, who interviewed Doherty between December two December
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: Fifth Reporter. When Doherty was interviewed, he seemed to be
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: very confused about times and places. Mister trully uh furnished
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: the information that although Doherty is a very good employee
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: and a hard worker, that he is mentally retarded and
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: has difficulty in remembering facts such as dates, times and places,
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: and has been specific especially confused since the assassination. I
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: am suspicious of Doherty for several reasons. Number one, he
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: has no alibi. Of the six employees on the floor
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: laying crew, Givens claims to have with a friend at
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: a parking lot several blocks away, Williams and Jarman were
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: together on the fifth floor with another employee. Norman Lovelady
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: was standing outside, and Arsey claims to have been standing
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: outside the TSBD. Doherty was inside the TSBD all alone.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: His story is very thin. It does not make sense
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: that Doherty, one of the six men floor lane crew,
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: should begin working before the other five have returned from lunch.
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: It's questionable that Doherty would have had to go to
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: the fifth floor to get stocked in connection with the
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: floor lane project that is true, it doesn't make sense,
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: and there's a note at the bottom, says Doherty's father
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: told the FBI that Doerty had to receive a medical
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: discharge from the US Army and had considerable difficulty coordinating
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: his mental faculties in his speech, much like your boy,
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: big bad Bob saying Liberty, Lobbity, Jorman Norman and William Jarman.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: Norman and Williams, who were at the southwest window of
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: the fifth floor at the time of the assassination or
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: southeast windows sorry and run from there to the southwest window,
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: make absolutely no mention of having seen Doherty on the
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: fifth floor. It does not seem credible that Doherty would
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: have gone to the first floor, found out that the
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: three shots had been fired, and then and then casually
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: returned to the sixth floor. No report indicates that Doherty
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: or anybody else from the sixth floor was on that
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: floor when served. Since Doherty heard the shots on the
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: twelve thirty two, Doherty must have returned to the sixth
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: floor leged go back to work before twelve thirty, which
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: seems odd since the school book depository lunch period ends
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: at twelve forty five. If Doherty is mentally retarded, it
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: may explain some of the inconsistencies in his story. On
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: the other hand, the mental retardation maybe an emotional problem,
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: which would itself be grounds for suspicion in this connection.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: I find disturbing Truly's comment that Doherty was quote has
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: been especially confused since the assassination, you know, like if
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: he had some PTSD or something.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: You know, if you war imply, you know, he might
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: have been shell shocked or you know. Yeah, but I
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: think it was uh, I think it was Givens that
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: was saying what first of all Doherty had I think
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: we talked about this last episode. He had the key
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: to open up, right, and he also kind of had
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: carte blanche on that back door to let employees in
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: after lunch. Doesn't seem like the most uh, you know,
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: useless employee.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: No, And I've seen Jerdy's handwritten statement. He was not
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: mentally retarded. I mean his handwriting is like better than mine,
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: you know what.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, Like and in cursive right yeah, yeah, I
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 2: think that might have been an excuse given to explain
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: the discrepancies, right yeah.
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: So let's take a look at Joe. At what James
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: Jarman Junior has to say in this little clip.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 7: Stuart our next witness from the fifth floor window, James
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 7: Jarmon Jr.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 11: I was telling to him around by ten o'clock on
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 11: the outside of the building, some people had gathered and uh.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 11: He asked me what was they gathering around out there for?
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 3: Uh?
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 11: And I told him that the President was supposed to
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 11: come by that that morning. And he asked me what time.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 11: And I didn't know what time it would be, but
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 11: some of the people that had started gathering around, and
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 11: he asked me which way would the President be coming?
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 11: And I told him and so he said, oh yeah,
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 11: and I said yeah, and then he turned around and
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 11: walked off.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: So ticking to his story, right, so.
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 12: And that I think there's war and they just the
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 12: able will save that until we uh get back. Now
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 12: let's get into Bonnie Ray sho All right, Well, mister
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 12: Bonnie Ray, the.
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: Fourth African American gentleman, and our segment here. This is
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: a couple of pictures on the left. I think we
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 2: showed this last week, Rob and we kind of joked
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: he look stoned. That's next to Danny rsa.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: Man when you trip.
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 2: And in the middle and to the right, I think
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: that's the same picture, just in color and black and
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: white and.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: The middle.
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: Picture of the I believe it was the reenactment, right,
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: So let me is that from Rush to Judgment, the
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: Mark Lane film. I found it on YouTube. I'm gonna
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: play it in a second right now. As I plugged
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: my laptop. I don't remember Markling interviewing him, but I
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: could be wrong. It looks like that writing. Well, we'll
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: find out on the second here, all right, this is
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: only thirty eight seconds, and this is Bonnie Ray Williams
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: Lee Ray CBS News inquiry of the Warm Report. So
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 2: sixty four probably and almost certainly.
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 7: So.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: I don't have the exact day.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 6: So when the president came around, we remember seeing him
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 6: standing up and waving and he's turning to go down
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 6: to M Street. We heard a shot and he saw
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 6: the president slap. We'll be proud of that, though, be
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 6: sad day with some fireworks and everything, you know. And
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 6: then after we saw him slammed, we said, I think
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 6: one guy.
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 2: I don't remember which.
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 6: One day I said that I believe it's shooting at
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 6: the president, and I believe it came from a right
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 6: up over us.
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 7: How many shots did you hear?
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: Herd three, the.
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 6: First and second with further five, then the second and
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 6: the third. Another word that was a bang and a
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 6: bang bang like that.
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: Bang did the bang bang gang gang? Yeah?
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: So that was a Bonnie Ray in sixty four And
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 2: as we have done with everyone else. Oh, actually, before
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: I start here, I have a couple of pin comments.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 2: Kind of looks like Carlton yet does uh Trey? Also,
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: it was a hell of an athlete, look on fast.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: He got down four slights upstairs, then ran to tenth
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: the Patton in the theater shimmying down elephant cablesh yeah,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: and Paul said, l h show greater than Spider Man.
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 2: Uh mister perpetual concepts.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: Hi, sir, how are you?
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: We're red rocket scientists? Trust great comment as perpetual comments
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: comments almost always are. PAULA asked, debris fell onto his
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: head outside the window. Yeah, that's that's what they.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: Was inside the window.
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, yeah, I mean either it fell and I
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: think he said it fell in his head actually, but
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: and I might even have that in the next my
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 2: next lines. But U and last one, uh hey, slacker
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: dad got here late. I hope everyone is having a
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: great twenty five so far, we are, and we hope
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: you are, and all our listeners are too.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: So every Friday night is great. It's the rest of
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: the week that kills me.
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 2: That's I hear you there, So Bonnie Ray Ray, let's
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: go to his DPD statement on November twenty second after
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: he was arrested. Yes, yep, I worked on the sixth
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: floor today with mister Bill Danny, although I think that
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: means Bill Shelley, and there's a I worked.
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: Out there with mister Bill Danny, Charles and a Billy
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: love lady.
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a common missing people, Charles Gibbons and a
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: Billy door.
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: Right. I can't forget the retarded guy I mean name.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: Up until about ten or twelve minutes to noon. Then
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: we went downstairs to work the hammer. We rode the
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: elevator to the first floor and got our lunches. That
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: is the infamous elevator race. I went back to the
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: fifth floor with a fellow called Hank.
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: And Junior.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know his last name.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: I think he said Propa.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: Just after we got on the fifth floor, we saw
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: the President coming around the corner on Houston from main street.
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: I heard two shots and it sounded like they came
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: from just above us. We ran to the west side
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: of the building, that's the dull side. We didn't see anybody.
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: We looked down as saw people running and hollering. We
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 2: stayed there and a little while some officers came up.
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: They left, and we took the elevator to the fourth floor.
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: Interesting, yeah, because before then they say they took the
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: stairs down to the first floor, all three of them
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: at the same time.
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: After oh yeah, from the break from the lunch break, No.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: From the fifth floor. They said they were up there
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: for about five minutes and they went down the stairs
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: and didn't see nobody. Now he's saying that the police
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: came up to the fifth floor, it took the elevator
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: down to the fourth floor. But please continue. Yeah, nothing's
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: having here.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: No, it's all a mess. Rob I'm trying to like
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: put it all together in my head, and that's what
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 2: we're doing. That's what we're kind of getting at here, guys.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: This is mess is Mexico City and the medical Avenue.
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you can't tell, this is what we're getting at,
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: ladies and gentlemen. Let's see, we ran to the west
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 2: side of the building. We didn't see anybody. We looked
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 2: down and saw people running and hollering. We stayed there.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: I already read that, and in a little while some
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: officers came up. They left and we took the elevator
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 2: to the fourth floor.
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: We stayed at the.
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 13: Fourth floor for a while and then went outside. The
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 13: Oswalt was there when I got to work this morning
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 13: at eight am. He feels orders and goes over the building.
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 13: I didn't see Oswalt anymore that I remember. After I
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 13: saw him at eight am. I recognized him just a
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 13: few minutes ago when the officers brought him.
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 2: Into the office the DPP office. Oswald had been working
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: d for about six weeks, so that is Bonnie Ray's
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 2: day of statement on the twenty second so, but the
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 2: FBI the next day interviews Bonnie Ray again. And during
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 2: the past three weeks, Bonnie Ray has been putting in
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: new flooring in the TSBD building. During that time, he
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 2: became acquainted with a young man known to him as
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: Lee Williams. Stated on November twenty second, sixty three, he
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: worked installing flooring on the sixth floor of the building
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: until about eleven thirty am. At that time he went
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: down on an elevator from the sixth floor to the
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 2: first floor. At the same time, Charles Gibbons was on
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: the other elevator descending on the same time. As they
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 2: were going down, he saw Lee on the fifth floor.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: He had previously seen Lee at least once that morning
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 2: at eight am on the first floor filling orders. So
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 2: that is, of course the elevator race we've been talking about.
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: At approximately twelve noon, Williams went back upstairs the elevator
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: to the sixth floor with his lunch. This is the
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: infamous Chicken Bones and doctor Pepper. He stayed on that
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: floor only about three minutes.
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: Bullshit Pray continue, and.
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 2: Seeing no one was there, went down descended to the
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 2: fifth floor using the stairs at the west end of
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 2: the building. There he joined two other men known as
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: to him as Hank and Junior. They were looking out
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: the windows on the south side of the building, approximately
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 2: at the middle of the building, and saw the car
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: of President John F. Kennedy coming north on Houston Street
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: and then making a turn going west on Elm Street
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: onto the Triple Underpass, passing directly in front of the TSBD.
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 2: While they were watching this car pass Bonnie Ray, Williams
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: heard two shots which sounded like they came from right
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 2: above over his head. He stated he was not hanging
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 2: out of the window, but did glance up and saw
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: no one. He stated he was hanging out the window,
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 2: but did glance up and saw no one.
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: Of course, not because there's a fucking ceiling right there,
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: or the floor of the sixth floor, one of the two. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: nothing about all I could see was a floor or
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 1: a ceiling. Yeah.
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 2: Nothing about hearing the shells hit the floor, right, nothing.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: Of that, right, Well, you never know. I mean, Oswald
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: could have had spider man like powers where he could
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: walk on walls and ceilings and you know, been upside
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: down on the ceiling when he shot the president.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or he could have put a rug down and
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 2: then and then kind of rolled it up before he
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 2: hit the rifle. Right, Yeah, you never know, he stated
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 2: he was. He stated he and the other two men
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 2: ran out to the west end of the building, which
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: is consistent where they looked out and did not realize
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: that the person had been shot, and Williams did not
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: see him shot while they were standing on the west
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: end of the building on the fifth floor. A police
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: officer came up on the elevator and looked all around
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: the fifth floor and left the floor.
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: Makes no sense whatsoever?
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 7: Is that.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: Baker? No, that's what I'm saying. They went up to
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 2: the seventh or sixth or seventh that went up to
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 2: the roof. I don't think Baker ever said he stopped
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: on the fifth floor.
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but they may have gotten off
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 1: the elevator on the fifth floor and walked down the
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: stairs from there. But again, why would you three suspicious
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: black guys on the fifth floor? You want to stick
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: a gun in Oswald's gut and asked, truly if the
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: manon works here, but you don't do that to them.
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: That's a very good point. That's a very good point.
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 2: While they were standing at the west end of the
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 2: building on the fifth floor. All right, so I'm sorry,
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: this is hard to keep your lines here. Williams stated
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: that he and hankin Junior were standing where they would
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 2: have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor via
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 2: the stairs, and that they did not see anyone coming down.
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: In testing, he stated someone might have been coming down
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 2: on the elevator and they would have not been noticed.
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 2: And they would have not noticed that. He stated that
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 2: after the police officer let the fifth floor, Williams went
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 2: down to the fourth floor, where there were a lot
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 2: of women around the west end of the floor.
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: White women. Yeah, the publishing ladies. Right, How you doing, Mayam?
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: Hey Bill Bill.
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 2: Shelley asked about Lee, but no one had seen him.
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 2: That's an interesting sentence there, because this is way before
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: Oswalt was reported missing, and.
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: Shelley wasn't anywhere near these guys.
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was out front with love Lady or some shit.
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, I mean, we're.
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 2: Continuing, continuing to convey how little sense this whole thing makes.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 2: Williams stated that while working on the sixth floor until
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 2: eleventh thirty am on a verbra twenty second, he did
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 2: not see Lee or anyone else in the south corner
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: of the building. He stated, there are number of shelves
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 2: stacked with books in the area, but he would have
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 2: been unable to see this corner, the sniper's corner, I
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 2: think from where he was working. He pointed out, however,
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: that he did go from the windows on the south
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 2: side of the sixth floor middle of the building about
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 2: three minutes after twelve and did not see anyone standing
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: at any of the windows of that time. Bonnie Ray
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 2: Williams stated that Lee was always reading the newspapers, but
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: did not like to read the sport pages like many
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 2: men do, but read politics. He stated, Lee would read
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 2: something in the paper and then laugh about it. On
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 2: one occasion, he looked at the paper Lee was reading
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 2: when he left and noticed Lee was reading something from
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 2: the front page of the newspaper. Williams advised that Lee
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: did not seem to have any close friends or associates
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: with anyone on the job, and only recalled Wesley, who
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: drove him to work. But so then we are going
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: from the weekend of the assassination to Bonnie Ray Williams's
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 2: FBI statement on December fifth, sixty three, which is a
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: little about two weeks, and this is about what Lee
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: Harvey Oswalt was wearing.
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: He was wearing a gray Corndoi coron oy called corduroy. Joe,
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: maybe you've heard of it.
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally mispronounced that corduroy, thank you, sir, A
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: pair of pants and a grayish looking sports shirt with
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: long okay you want, Hey, I've been reading a lot
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 2: of words, you know, I'm gonna get one wrong. At
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: some point, Williams was shown a rust brown sport coat
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: which a hole in the right sleeve at the elbow, which,
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 2: according to the arresting officers, was being worn by Oswald
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 2: at the time is arrest. Williams was unable to identify
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: this shirt and could not recall ever seeing Oswalt wearing
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 2: the shirt or a shirt similar in his appearance. Okay,
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 2: so let's forward go forward about four months, and this
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 2: is another FBI statement by Bonnie Ray.
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: What Liberty cougaroy.
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not looking at the comments. I'm looking at
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: my my spreadsheet.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: But that's another interesting point. Their cat daddy Steve that
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 1: all the girls, there were three on the stairs. One
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 1: stayed behind right, Dorothy Garner stayed out on the fourth
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: floor landing and saw nobody dot Oswald and not these
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: dudes coming down the stairs either, which is sucks because
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: you think we saw these three black guys come running
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: down the stairs. Yeah, yeah, that didn't happen.
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I doubt the publishing ladies would be hesitant to
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 2: point that out.
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: You know, what are we to do with us?
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: So here we are with another FBI statement about four
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: months after the December statement and Bonnie Ray freely gives
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 2: us a voluntary statement, and he's.
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 1: Int into the gun in my back.
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: Yes. On November twenty second, sixty three, I along with
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: Harold Hank Norman and James Earl Jarman Jr. Both of
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 2: whom are also employed at the TSBD, were on the
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: fifth floor for the presidential morricade. Where we were at
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: the windows, which are located at the center of the
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 2: building on the south side. As the presidential morricade passed
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: by the building on Elm, they came from directly above me.
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 2: I think he's talking about the shots. At first, I
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 2: thought the noises I heard were firecrackers. We've heard that before.
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 2: I looked up when little pieces of cement hit me
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 2: on the head. There's the answer to your question, Paula Jane.
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 2: But I saw no one. I did not know that
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 2: President John F. Kennedy had been shocked. When I saw
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 2: the confusion on the street, we ran to the west
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 2: side of the building to get a better view. Hankin Junior,
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 2: who were on the floor with me, also ran to
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 2: the west end of the building. Same thing about the
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 2: police officer came coming up last time he saw Oswalt
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 2: was eleven forty am.
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 14: And that time.
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 2: At that time Oswalt was on the sixth floor. I
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: did not pay any particular attention to what he was doing.
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 2: I did not observe any strangers and more kind of
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 2: bs here. But so now we go to his warr
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 2: Commission testimony, and they asked him, of course, did you
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 2: know mister Ball. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald? I
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 2: didn't know him personally, of course, but I'd seen him working.
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 2: Never said anything to anyone. Uh, he just went about
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 2: his work. He never said anything to me. I never
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: said anything to him, Bonnie Ray. The only time he'd
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 2: come into lunch room would be to eat a sandwich
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 2: and maybe go for a walk and go out, and
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 2: I assumed he'd come back. The only other time he
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: would come in would be to read a paper or
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 2: nothing maybe or something and laugh and leave again. Interesting
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 2: thing with a laugh while reading the paper. That's like
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 2: the second person we first said.
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: He was reading Beatle Bailey man, Come on, give him break.
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 2: He was reading comics, not politics. He would never speak
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 2: to anyone Lee. He was just a funny fellow. I
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 2: don't know what kind of fellow he was. Uh, so
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 2: I'm skipping around a little bit because Bonnie Rady's or
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 2: a commission testimony could take us a whole show. Did
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 2: you see Oswalt on the sixth floor that morning, mister
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 2: Ball asks Bonnie Ray. I'm not sure. I saw him
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 2: once messing around with some cartons or something back on
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 2: the east side of the building. But he wasn't in
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 2: the window that they said he shot the president from.
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 2: He was more in the east side of the elevator,
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 2: messing around with the cartons of boxes. He was always
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 2: just messing around, kicking cartons around. This morning, when you
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 2: think you saw Oswalt on the sixth floor, can you
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 2: tell us about where he was? So I'm going to
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 2: read this the format of this question again by mister
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 2: Bull this morning aka the morning of the twenty second,
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 2: when you think you saw Oswalt on the sixth floor.
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 2: So he's kind of forming the answer for Bonnie Ray,
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like he's like leading the witness.
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: That would be like objection leading the witness in a
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: court of law. Of course, we know this is the
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: court of public opinion, not a court of law. Well,
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 2: as I said before, Bonnie Ray says, I'm not sure
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 2: he was really on the sixth floor, so to his credit,
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 2: he doesn't go along with the leading of the witness there,
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 2: but he was always around that way. Okay, I think
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 2: I saw him on the east elevator come up to
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 2: the sixth floor. He was on that side of the elevator.
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 2: But I thought that was an interesting example, mister ball,
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 2: did you go downstairs? We took two elevators down. I mean,
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 2: speaking as a group, we took two down. Was there
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 2: some reason you took two elevators down? Bonnie Ray? Well,
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 2: we always had a little kids game. We played racing
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 2: down the elevators, and I think one fellow, Charles Gibbons,
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 2: had the east elevator and me I think two or
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: three more fellows had the west elevator, and we were
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 2: racing down. Now did something happen on the way down?
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 2: Did someone yell out again really leading the witness here? Yes,
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 2: on the way down, I heard Oswald and I'm not
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 2: sure whether he was on the fifth or sixth floor,
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 2: but on the way down Oswald hollered, guys, how about
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 2: the elevator? And that makes sense, right? You had these
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 2: Skufuza coworkers playing some dumb game doing some elevator race.
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 2: Oswalt maybe trying to finish his work, maybe just being
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 2: a non didn't want to participate in the silliness which
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 2: was that game, right, just didn't go down the elevator
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 2: with them. It makes a lot of sense when you
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 2: think about Oswald's character actually, and Charles Gibbons said, come
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: on boy, and Lee said, close the gate on the
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 2: elevator and send the elevator back up, like when you're
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 2: done with your reindeer games, close the door and send
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 2: it back up type of thing. I don't know what
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 2: happened after that. Gerald Ford kind of chimes in and
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 2: gets into some elevator drama, and I'm skipping a little
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 2: way into uh. Mister Ball asking Bonnie Ray about the
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 2: chicken sandwich described the sandwich. Mister Ball says, what did
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 2: it have in it? Besides chicken? Bonnie Ray, Well, it
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 2: just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone. Is
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 2: that a chicken sandwich?
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 1: Rob, Well, keep going, because yes, apparently it is.
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: Chicken on the bone. Mister Ball asks Bonnie Ray. Yes,
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 2: the chicken was not boned. It was just chicken on
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 2: the bone, just plain old chicken. They didn't have bread,
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 2: around it. Yes, it did before he went upstairs. Do
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 2: you have anything to drink, Bonnie Ray? I got a
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 2: small bottle of dr pepper from the Doctor Pepper machine.
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 2: Did you have anything in your lunch besides chicken? Had
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 2: a bag of Frito's.
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 1: He believes.
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: You say you went back upstairs.
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 1: Where did you go?
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: I went back up to the sixth floor, Bonnie Ray says, Well,
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 2: at the time, everyone was talking like they were going
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 2: to watch from the sixth floor. I think Love Lady
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 2: said he wanted to watch from up there, and also
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 2: my friend, the Spanish boy, Danny Arsa. We had agreed
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 2: at first to come back up to the sixth floor,
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 2: so I thought everyone was gonna be hanging on the
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 2: sixth floor. Did anyone go back up to the sixth floor?
• 2:05:42
  Speaker 2: Nobody came back, so I just left. So he's kind
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 2: of saying like he wasn't sure where people were going
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 2: to be hanging. He wanted to kind of hang with
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 2: the coworkers, so we stayed up on the sixth floor,
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 2: and then when he realized no one was hanging up there,
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 2: he went down to the fifth floor.
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 1: Well, doesn't make sense that if they're all talking about
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: watching it from the sixth floor. That Oswald is gonna
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 1: stay behind and shoot from the sixth floor, thinking that
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: other people here comes Bonnie Ray back up there to eat,
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: and he's probably expecting more people to come up there
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: and eat. That he's gonna be up there hiding in
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 1: a corner with his rifles, is waiting. I mean, what
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 1: the hell.
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 2: No, there's no way you can anticipate co workers not
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 2: being on that floor. I mean there were people hanging
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 2: out of a lot of windows, not only from the TSPD,
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 2: from a lot of buildings. There's no way you can
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 2: anticipate that. Okay, the sixth floor is gonna be clear
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 2: at this.
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 1: Point, right. It just doesn't make sense. That doesn't None
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: of it makes sense. None of it makes sense. Is
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 1: a closter fuck of epic proportions, it really is.
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 2: So I think I have just two more slides here, Rob.
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 2: I know we're going along here as.
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: As we like to do, or as we do as
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 1: Joe makes it. Oh, come on, that's not true.
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 2: Let's see he was talking about the chicken sandwich. Oh yeah,
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 2: So now they're asking him about the discrepancy on later
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 2: statements to his FBI statements, and mister Ball is actually
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 2: bringing this up. When you talk to the FBI on
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 2: twenty third of November, you said that you went up
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 2: to the sixth floor about twelve noon with your lunch,
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 2: and you stayed only about three minutes, and seeing no one,
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 2: you came down to the fifth floor. Now do you
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 2: think you stayed longer than three minutes up here? I
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 2: am sure I stayed longer than three minutes. So okay,
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 2: they are lengthening the timeline here with this question. Right
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 2: in my humble opinion, mister Ball is not going to
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 2: bring up a discrepancy with his November twenty third FBI
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 2: statement and what he's telling them now unless it benefits
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 2: the narrative, right, No way that you've convinced me of that, right.
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 2: So they're just kind of manipulating the timeline here. And
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 2: that's what stood out to me and my last one
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 2: here when the cement fell on your head, to either
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 2: of the men notice it or say something about it?
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 1: Now, first was plaster, then debris, now cement falling from
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 1: the wood floor above.
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, So Bonnie Ray says, I believe Harold was the
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 2: first one. That is Hank Norman. I believe he was
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 2: the first one. He said, man, I don't know it
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 2: came from there. It even shook the building. He said,
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 2: you got something on your head. And then James Jarmand said, yeah, man,
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 2: don't you brush it out. By that time, I just
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 2: forgot about it. But after I got downstairs, I think
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 2: I brushed it out. Anyway, I's going to leave it there.
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 2: Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 2: the rifle, Bonnie Ray, I don't remember him saying anything
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: about it, but you heard him say he could hear
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 2: the cartridges. I heard Harold Norman. Part of me I
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 2: thought you were saying, Jarmon. Did Norman say anything about
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: the bolt? Yes, he said he could hear the rifle
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 2: and it sounded like it was right above. But you
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 2: could not hear this, Bonnie Ray.
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 1: No, I could not hear it despite being five less
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 1: than five feet away from Yeah.
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 3: So.
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 2: It's it's yeah, it's it's mind blowing.
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 1: It's a mess.
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 2: It's a mess. It's a mess, and you almost wonder
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 2: if they wanted to make it a mess on purpose.
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 1: Obviously. Yeah, Colleen, thank you, Colleen, thank you. Sheb obliged.
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, Sheba and Ruby say thank you, thank you.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 1: Hi, Joe, are you ready for the October surprise? You
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 1: want to jump into the comments first, Yeah, let me
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 1: do it.
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 2: I'm just like kind of I'm kind of sh up
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 2: like really quickly. I don't know if you look.
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 1: I was going through him at the time. There were
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 1: some good ones, okay, James said pop Talk.
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you got the memo, but from
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 2: now we are going to require cover sheets on.
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 1: Those FBI reports.
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 2: So the problem, James is that it's not legible. If
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 2: I were to crop all those, you know, the the
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 2: top of the memos, I can definitely include them, but
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to make people that viewed this on YouTube
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 2: be able to read it. But all the of course
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 2: FBI documents I reference are from that date, although I
• 2:11:51
  Speaker 2: did have one wrong, so maybe that's what he's referring to.
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 2: The November to whatever.
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 3: Joe, yeah.
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 1: Tiny says I hope Doug Campbell gets Carmine send a
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 1: letter to Tanabama about his infringement. The book is still
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 1: in pre order, yes, but I will let you know
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 1: there has been a movement on this, and I believe
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 1: it is good news and hopefully those things shall be
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: worked out very soon.
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 2: I'm confused. What does Carmine have to do with it.
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 1: Well, Carmine's very smart about all things, that's true. Yes,
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 1: So there's good news there. So thank you to everybody
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 1: that had reached out to Skyhorse on behalf and let
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 1: them know. I don't know if we can disclose much
• 2:12:46
  Speaker 1: more than that at this point legally, but just know
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 1: that we did get some good news and hopefully things
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 1: will be changed before the release of the book. It
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 1: just takes a little time to do these things.
• 2:13:02
  Speaker 2: So all right, Colleen says, I wish we could all
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 2: meet up. We have a cool little group right there
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 2: is talks. Was it Jack or Jack was?
• 2:13:18
  Speaker 1: It'd be cooler if we all lived in the same town,
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 1: you know, or country. Well, yeah, I'm saying town. Yeah,
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 1: you know, we could just be like, all right, after
• 2:13:29
  Speaker 1: the show, we're gonna meet up at you know, down
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 1: at the pub and bullshit for another three hours hang out.
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 2: Well, how far away are you served from the archives?
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 2: Like an hour or two hours?
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, roughly an hour or two, Probably an hour and
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 1: a half two. I'm a slow driver, so about hour
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 1: and a half or two.
• 2:13:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that would be the likely one,
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 2: although I think Jack said it would be fun to
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 2: like meet up in New Orleans and like kind of
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 2: like walk the John Thomas Martin route and visit all
• 2:14:08
  Speaker 2: these things.
• 2:14:08
  Speaker 1: I think that was his idea. Yeah, New Orleans would
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: be cool, but yeah, hopefully see it would be cool.
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 1: There's just not much to do there assassination wise, unless
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 1: we had just stormed the archives and start to manage ship,
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, we can all wear Davy Crockett attires,
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 1: be like a mini January sixth at the Archives. Yeah,
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 1: we can go ship on the head Archives desk, you know,
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 1: play around with the carcano, find the brain that's missing. Yeah,
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 1: we can do it all if I'm Fraser's polygraphic examination.
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the jam wave report. But yes, let's get to
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 2: your surprise.
• 2:14:57
  Speaker 1: Right, Yes, let's so, dear listeners, your boy, that would
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 1: be me. Big Bad Bob was approached some years ago,
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 1: I believe at this point it was eight years ago
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 1: by author Russe Baker to contribute to his book.
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 7: I was to.
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 1: Possibly contributed chapter or some kind of substance to it.
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 1: But the more I got into it with him, the
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 1: more I figured out that it was more of a
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 1: I do all the work he takes all the credit,
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 1: and I have to sign an NDA type of thing,
• 2:15:47
  Speaker 1: and I don't get compensated. So I poliitly told rus
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 1: Baker to go fuck himself politely. Now, I pretty much
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 1: told him to go fuck himself. Uh so, But I
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 1: did keep what I was working on back then. So
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 1: I believe it's called a memo to form, is what
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 1: I was. It's an MTF. So let me share with you, folks,
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 1: good folks, my screen. I think it's a memo to form. Okay,
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 1: I didn't know. I think it's been a long time
• 2:16:31
  Speaker 1: since I gave a ship what an MTF is, but
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 1: it sounds right. Okay, here we have.
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 2: Jack cover of years.
• 2:16:42
  Speaker 1: For the next couple of minutes, I want to make
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 1: you mad, sir. Okay, So I wrote I was reading this,
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 1: you know, writing this thing about about Fraser, and I
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 1: kind of laid it all out right as you can see,
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 1: this sixteen pages long. But and it was all about
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 1: the inconsistencies in Fraser's story and why I think he
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 1: lied about a lot of different things. But let me
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 1: get to the part that matters here. Okay. So this
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 1: is an excerpt from Harold Norman's HSCA testimony, okay, And
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 1: they were trying very hard to establish that Fraser was
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 1: giving rise to Oswald more frequently than he was letting on,
• 2:17:51
  Speaker 1: implying that they were more friendly than he was letting on.
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 2: Right, So he's trying to distance himself like, oh, I
• 2:17:58
  Speaker 2: did it once in a.
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 1: While, but he said I only did it when he
• 2:18:01
  Speaker 1: went to Irving, right yep. Okay. So Maxwell, the investigator
• 2:18:08
  Speaker 1: is saying, was Fraser the guy that drove Oswald to work?
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 1: Was he friendly with everybody in the place? Norman says, yeah,
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 1: I think Wesley got along pretty well with everybody in
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 1: the place, Maxwell says, and of all the people in
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 1: the place, about the only man you think that was
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 1: friendly with Oswald was Wes And Norman says, well, I
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 1: would say, I guess because he rode to work with him.
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know how many times he rode to work
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 1: with him. Okay. And then he goes on, who was
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 1: Oswald's boss, our best friend in the building that you
• 2:18:41
  Speaker 1: would think of? Norman says, I don't know of his
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 1: having one. I don't And Day says, did you know
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: the man Oswald came to work with? And Norman says, yes,
• 2:18:55
  Speaker 1: what was his name? Fraser? Okay. Then we got Junior
• 2:19:02
  Speaker 1: Jarman's testimony to the HSCA and they asked, during the
• 2:19:07
  Speaker 1: time when he was working there, did you ever see
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 1: him show any type of animosity towards anybody? Jarmon says no,
• 2:19:14
  Speaker 1: he was just an average fellow to me. Then they asked,
• 2:19:17
  Speaker 1: did you associate with any particular person there? Jarmons says,
• 2:19:22
  Speaker 1: no one, but I can't think of the dude's name,
• 2:19:24
  Speaker 1: the one that brings brought him to work all the time.
• 2:19:29
  Speaker 1: A fellow that worked with him. Yeah, Well, let me
• 2:19:32
  Speaker 1: ask you one thing. You said you saw him sometime
• 2:19:34
  Speaker 1: between eight and eight thirty that morning for the first time.
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say, Wesley, no, I
• 2:19:42
  Speaker 1: don't even think he's here now. Did they come to
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 1: work there together? Jarmon says, yes, he always brought Oswald
• 2:19:49
  Speaker 1: to work, and after that you didn't see him anymore
• 2:19:52
  Speaker 1: until you saw him on TV. Right. How about the
• 2:19:56
  Speaker 1: fellow who worked with Oswald, the guy you said usually
• 2:19:59
  Speaker 1: brought him to work, did you see him the next day?
• 2:20:02
  Speaker 1: And Drama says, yeah, I saw him the next day. Okay.
• 2:20:08
  Speaker 1: Then we have another employee HCA interview from Edward Shields. Okay,
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 1: Edward Shields says, if I'm not mistaken, I think he
• 2:20:20
  Speaker 1: rode with Fraser every day that he worked there, if
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 1: I could recall.
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And Shields was the guy that was with Givens
• 2:20:30
  Speaker 2: during the shots.
• 2:20:32
  Speaker 1: Correct, Now, Shields was working at the other book depository,
• 2:20:37
  Speaker 1: the State building where they parked where Fraser's supposedly parked
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 1: that morning, right, okay. And then he said, and earlier
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 1: you said you recall that Oswalda worked there for about
• 2:20:48
  Speaker 1: six weeks. He said, no, he worked there or he
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 1: worked there six weeks from mid October to the November
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 1: to the assassination. And then he says, now, let me
• 2:21:00
  Speaker 1: back up a little bit. Are you telling me that
• 2:21:02
  Speaker 1: this fella said that somebody who worked in the book depository,
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 1: the building down on Elman Houston hollered out the window
• 2:21:09
  Speaker 1: and asked Fraser where was his rider? And he says
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 1: mm hmm. And he said, are you talking about the
• 2:21:16
  Speaker 1: morning of the assassination? He says, I think it was
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 1: mister Davis, but I if I'm not mistaken, I think
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 1: it was. And he said, well, how did you come
• 2:21:25
  Speaker 1: about this information? He says, well, I was down on
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 1: the floor when they hollered out and said and the
• 2:21:32
  Speaker 1: answer he gave him, I don't know. I think he said,
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 1: I dropped him off of the building. Now, whoever was
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 1: hollering to him, I don't know. He said. This was
• 2:21:43
  Speaker 1: the morning of the assassination, and he says, h somebody
• 2:21:47
  Speaker 1: hollered out the window at Fraser and said, where's your rider?
• 2:21:50
  Speaker 1: And to your recollection? Fraser said, I dropped him off
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 1: of the building. Okay, And then he's asking him some
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 1: more stuff. He says, how about Wesley Wesley Fraser? Right,
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 1: you're correct? All right? He wrote to work with him
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 1: Wesley Fraser. Yes, And they would pack their car or
• 2:22:10
  Speaker 1: park the car right on Houston Street. Now listen to
• 2:22:13
  Speaker 1: this detail please, because I'm going to play you something
• 2:22:16
  Speaker 1: here in a minute. They would park right on Houston
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 1: Street and get out and walk to the building on
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 1: Elm Street. All right, the day of the assassination, did
• 2:22:27
  Speaker 1: you see Oswald come to work with Fraser? No? I didn't,
• 2:22:32
  Speaker 1: excuse me. They told him or they they told me
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 1: that he let him out of the building. He did
• 2:22:37
  Speaker 1: not come on the parking lot. He say, they told you? Yeah,
• 2:22:44
  Speaker 1: who told you? Shield says jarming them all the fellows
• 2:22:49
  Speaker 1: to work there in the building, Okay. And he goes
• 2:22:53
  Speaker 1: on a little further down and says that some of
• 2:22:55
  Speaker 1: the other guys that were there, I think Charles Gibbons
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 1: hollered out there and asked Fraser where was his rider?
• 2:23:03
  Speaker 1: And he told him I dropped him off at the
• 2:23:04
  Speaker 1: building and that was it. You say you drove him
• 2:23:08
  Speaker 1: to work? You used to see him in the parking lot,
• 2:23:10
  Speaker 1: He said, yeah, he come by that parking lot. Did
• 2:23:13
  Speaker 1: he drive him to work every day that you can
• 2:23:15
  Speaker 1: recall or on certain days? I don't have the answer
• 2:23:21
  Speaker 1: for that, but I believe he's already given it. Okay.
• 2:23:26
  Speaker 1: And this is a little map. The red circle at
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 1: the bottom here is where Fraser supposedly parked that day, okay,
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 1: or no, I'm sorry, yeah, no, yeah, that's right. This
• 2:23:40
  Speaker 1: is where Fraser supposedly parked that day. And the red
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 1: circle at the top, okay, is the school book depository.
• 2:23:50
  Speaker 1: Ok So it was quite a distance. It was twenty
• 2:23:58
  Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty beat, which is freakin' hall Jack walked.
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 1: So if it was raining that morning and also had
• 2:24:07
  Speaker 1: a package with him, you would think nice guy Fraser
• 2:24:10
  Speaker 1: would drop him off at the building, so he went
• 2:24:13
  Speaker 1: at the walk in the rain with his paper package.
• 2:24:15
  Speaker 1: Right m h. Now, this is from where Fraser parked
• 2:24:21
  Speaker 1: his car, and you can see the school book depository
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 1: on Elm Street in the distance with the black arrow
• 2:24:27
  Speaker 1: pointing to it. Okay, we call that the real time view, Joe. Now,
• 2:24:42
  Speaker 1: if if you have read Georgia O'Toole's book Okay, which
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 1: is all about the p S analysis and and uh,
• 2:24:54
  Speaker 1: it kind of it's kind of like a lie detective
• 2:24:56
  Speaker 1: machine but different. Its results are based upon vocal inflections
• 2:25:05
  Speaker 1: and voice stress analysis, and Fraser didn't do very good
• 2:25:10
  Speaker 1: on it. And I encourage everybody out there to read
• 2:25:13
  Speaker 1: that book so you get a little bit better understanding
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 1: on it. Now, this is when we were looking for
• 2:25:18
  Speaker 1: the polygraph that Fraser supposedly took in Dallas. And according
• 2:25:25
  Speaker 1: to the National Archives Okay, Buell Wesley Fraser polygraph was
• 2:25:37
  Speaker 1: dealt with sometime between ninety two and ninety eight during
• 2:25:40
  Speaker 1: the assassination Records and review board in the files of
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 1: Thomas E. Samlak Okay, these are textual records. Creator of
• 2:25:53
  Speaker 1: the files. Access restrictions restricted, possibly specific access restriction. JFK.
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 1: Assassination records collection acts. Some materials may have been withdrawn
• 2:26:04
  Speaker 1: for reasons of personal privacy or national security. Okay, more
• 2:26:13
  Speaker 1: on the PSC machine from Georgia two's book The Results.
• 2:26:18
  Speaker 1: The termined Fraser was lying in a previous recorded statement
• 2:26:20
  Speaker 1: and in an interview taped in the nineteen seventies. That's
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 1: the book The Assassination Tapes. The line of thinking, at
• 2:26:30
  Speaker 1: least Joe's with what Gus Rose were called about talking
• 2:26:33
  Speaker 1: to Fraser earlier that evening, about seeing Oswald that morning
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 1: and no more silence, hilarious need book. Wesley said to me,
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 1: I didn't think it was curtain rise, but I didn't
• 2:26:44
  Speaker 1: want to argue with him. When we got to work,
• 2:26:47
  Speaker 1: Lee got that package out and I asked him, why
• 2:26:48
  Speaker 1: don't we lock that under the trunk and when we
• 2:26:52
  Speaker 1: get off you can get it. Oswald said, no, I
• 2:26:55
  Speaker 1: need it here. Okay, this is according to Rose again.
• 2:27:06
  Speaker 1: Two out of four Fraser's HSCA testimony tapes are so
• 2:27:09
  Speaker 1: badly damaged they cannot be transcribed. The other two are
• 2:27:12
  Speaker 1: barely listenable, but some interesting tidbits include Fraser talking about
• 2:27:16
  Speaker 1: the military and this little nugget here which I brought
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 1: up on the show before where Fraser says, no, I
• 2:27:23
  Speaker 1: didn't know that he'd been caught, but I will tell
• 2:27:26
  Speaker 1: you this, I knew that he hid the rifle. He did,
• 2:27:30
  Speaker 1: and I said to myself, I said, oh my god,
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 1: that was the first thing right there on the steps.
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 1: I also knew that I didn't want to get pulled
• 2:27:37
  Speaker 1: in mm hm. Okay, that's an interesting nugget. They had
• 2:27:49
  Speaker 1: asked him a question during his HSCA interview. He told
• 2:27:52
  Speaker 1: the investigators that you were put in a police line
• 2:27:55
  Speaker 1: up with Oswald. About what time of night did this
• 2:27:58
  Speaker 1: take place? And was it before or after you were
• 2:28:00
  Speaker 1: called back to the station to take a polygraph? Okay,
• 2:28:04
  Speaker 1: I don't think Fraser was ever put in a lineup,
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 1: and if he was, uh, that's news to me. And
• 2:28:11
  Speaker 1: then he said, uh. They said that Fraser told the
• 2:28:14
  Speaker 1: AGENCA investigator that Oswald remarked then that he owned Dallas
• 2:28:17
  Speaker 1: and that he said to you, you drove the car.
• 2:28:22
  Speaker 1: Do you remember anything else about what went on during
• 2:28:25
  Speaker 1: that lineup? So apparently there was a lineup with Oswald
• 2:28:29
  Speaker 1: and Fraser in it together. Huh.
• 2:28:34
  Speaker 2: That would have had to have been Friday night.
• 2:28:36
  Speaker 1: Huh.
• 2:28:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, if it happened.
• 2:28:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then he said you you drove the car.
• 2:28:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's would have been a method to kind
• 2:28:52
  Speaker 2: of squeeze Buel right in theory, it's like, oh, you're
• 2:28:57
  Speaker 2: gonna be putting.
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 1: Well, not not in theory. Like I've said Joe on
• 2:29:00
  Speaker 1: this on this show before that if Oswald had a
• 2:29:03
  Speaker 1: package that day and it was a rifle and a bag,
• 2:29:07
  Speaker 1: Fraser knew it was a rifle in a bag. Yeah, okay,
• 2:29:11
  Speaker 1: m hm. He was a hunter, he's a rifle owner.
• 2:29:16
  Speaker 1: You know what a rifle in a case looks like.
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 1: You know what a rifle and a leather case looks like.
• 2:29:22
  Speaker 1: You know what a rifle in a plastic bag looks like.
• 2:29:26
  Speaker 1: You know what a rifle and a paper bag looks like. Yeah, broke,
• 2:29:29
  Speaker 1: it's out. It's just a distinct not broken down necessarily,
• 2:29:32
  Speaker 1: but it's it's a rifle in a case or a bag.
• 2:29:36
  Speaker 1: It's a distinct shape, it's a distinct length. Right, And
• 2:29:44
  Speaker 1: if he dropped him off at the building so he
• 2:29:46
  Speaker 1: didn't have to walk, that's even more reason for Fraser, Alie,
• 2:29:51
  Speaker 1: because if he would have knew that Oswald took a
• 2:29:53
  Speaker 1: rifle in that building and like I've said before, don't
• 2:29:56
  Speaker 1: freak out everybody. Just because Oswald brought a rifle into
• 2:29:59
  Speaker 1: the the building, that data doesn't mean he was upstairs
• 2:30:02
  Speaker 1: and six four shooting it at twelve thirty. Okay, that's
• 2:30:05
  Speaker 1: not what I'm saying. So we go down and I
• 2:30:17
  Speaker 1: think that's about everything. I did have another couple of tippets.
• 2:30:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe this is not the updated one, So there's that. Okay.
• 2:30:29
  Speaker 1: Now keep in mind what I've just told you from
• 2:30:34
  Speaker 1: all these witnesses, including Harold Norman, Junior Jarman, Edward Shields,
• 2:30:40
  Speaker 1: Charles Gibbons. Okay, there is lots of witnesses from people
• 2:30:46
  Speaker 1: that work there that all say the same thing. That
• 2:30:50
  Speaker 1: Oswald always rode with Fraser to work. Now from Oswald
• 2:30:57
  Speaker 1: or from Fraser's trip in from Irving for him to
• 2:31:00
  Speaker 1: pick up Oswald at the rooming house or probably near it,
• 2:31:05
  Speaker 1: I would think that Oswald would not want Fraser to
• 2:31:09
  Speaker 1: know where he was staying, much like the cab that
• 2:31:13
  Speaker 1: dropped him off a couple of blocks away from his
• 2:31:14
  Speaker 1: rooming house. I would think that he probably met Fraser
• 2:31:18
  Speaker 1: somewhere on the corner of somewhere and somewhere, and that
• 2:31:21
  Speaker 1: this is also where Fraser dropped him off, right, because
• 2:31:24
  Speaker 1: he wouldn't want any bed at the rooming house to
• 2:31:26
  Speaker 1: see him getting in the same vehicle every day either. Yeah,
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 1: you know, because nosy people there, you know what I mean,
• 2:31:33
  Speaker 1: very logical, especially if he's playing some kind of you know,
• 2:31:36
  Speaker 1: super spy game in his head or whatever the hell
• 2:31:38
  Speaker 1: he thinks he's doing. Right, But it was only one
• 2:31:43
  Speaker 1: mile a one mile detour, you know, for Fraser to
• 2:31:47
  Speaker 1: pick up or drop him off from the school book depository.
• 2:31:51
  Speaker 1: That's it. That's it.
• 2:31:54
  Speaker 2: A couple of minutes tops.
• 2:31:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's not a big deal. And Fraser's a
• 2:31:58
  Speaker 1: nice guy, Okay, he would have done this. He knows
• 2:32:01
  Speaker 1: the guy doesn't have a car, right.
• 2:32:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so he just got hired there a month
• 2:32:12
  Speaker 2: before Oswald, yeah, I think.
• 2:32:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And too far to walk from Oswald's rooming house
• 2:32:18
  Speaker 1: to the school book depository. Okay, it's too far fromto walk.
• 2:32:21
  Speaker 1: Oswald's too cheap to take a cab to and from there,
• 2:32:24
  Speaker 1: right every day. I mean, that wouldn't negate the point
• 2:32:27
  Speaker 1: of even working there, right, So if Oswald would have
• 2:32:33
  Speaker 1: took the bus to work and from a home to
• 2:32:35
  Speaker 1: work or home from work every day, Where's all the
• 2:32:41
  Speaker 1: people on the bus, all these witnesses on the bus
• 2:32:44
  Speaker 1: that rode to and from work every day with the
• 2:32:47
  Speaker 1: alleged assassin of the president. Where are they at? Where's
• 2:32:52
  Speaker 1: the bus driver that picked him up every day and
• 2:32:54
  Speaker 1: took him home? Where are they at? They don't exist
• 2:32:57
  Speaker 1: because it didn't happen. You know, if you ride public
• 2:33:01
  Speaker 1: transportation every day to work, you generally see the same people,
• 2:33:07
  Speaker 1: you know, because they're all using public transportation to get
• 2:33:09
  Speaker 1: to work.
• 2:33:10
  Speaker 2: Then, yeah, especially you know, you probably you would know
• 2:33:15
  Speaker 2: almost all the people on the bus if you did
• 2:33:19
  Speaker 2: it daily.
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, for six weeks. Okay, but those people don't exist
• 2:33:24
  Speaker 1: because it didn't happen. Now, I'm gonna play you something
• 2:33:27
  Speaker 1: an audio clip. Here are folks, And this is from
• 2:33:31
  Speaker 1: another school book Depository employee named Roy Lewis. Okay, and
• 2:33:38
  Speaker 1: this is him from his own mouth, unprompted. He was
• 2:33:42
  Speaker 1: being interviewed about something totally different. He was being interviewed
• 2:33:47
  Speaker 1: about prayer Man. Okay, And this is from I believe
• 2:33:54
  Speaker 1: oh man name his name has escaped me. I uh,
• 2:34:01
  Speaker 1: I wish I could remember who this is from. It
• 2:34:04
  Speaker 1: wasn't Ed LaDue, who have had on the show before
• 2:34:07
  Speaker 1: has interviewed Roy Lewis, but this is not from his
• 2:34:11
  Speaker 1: interview with Roy Lewis. This is from a different interview
• 2:34:14
  Speaker 1: of Roy Lewis by someone else. But listen very carefully
• 2:34:19
  Speaker 1: because he talks very fast. But listen to what he says. Okay,
• 2:34:23
  Speaker 1: here we go, turn it up, here we go.
• 2:34:30
  Speaker 2: That was my concept.
• 2:34:32
  Speaker 15: And then he went in parts and didn't win a part. Right,
• 2:34:35
  Speaker 15: my concept, that's right. But I didn't see any of it.
• 2:34:37
  Speaker 15: I can't say because I wasn't. He put him out
• 2:34:40
  Speaker 15: in the bag.
• 2:34:42
  Speaker 1: He's always putting back.
• 2:34:43
  Speaker 7: Now.
• 2:34:43
  Speaker 15: You said he wrote with him on weekend.
• 2:34:44
  Speaker 1: He wrote with him every day.
• 2:34:46
  Speaker 2: Really runded it through friday.
• 2:34:48
  Speaker 1: Really we didn't know that. And he would bring him.
• 2:34:53
  Speaker 2: But he would own it.
• 2:34:53
  Speaker 1: He would let him out in the back door.
• 2:34:55
  Speaker 2: That's what we're going to kill you. I mean, that
• 2:35:03
  Speaker 2: says it all, folks, and he seems very confident about it.
• 2:35:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's different than seeing it on paper from one, two, three,
• 2:35:14
  Speaker 1: or four guys, this is the fifth one. This says
• 2:35:17
  Speaker 1: the exact same thing, and you can heard him say
• 2:35:19
  Speaker 1: it with your own two years he brought into work
• 2:35:23
  Speaker 1: every day. He used to let him off at the
• 2:35:25
  Speaker 1: back door every day.
• 2:35:27
  Speaker 2: He wrote with him every day.
• 2:35:30
  Speaker 1: Which implies that him and Oswald, Fraser and Oswald were
• 2:35:36
  Speaker 1: a little bit more friendly than he's ever let on
• 2:35:40
  Speaker 1: ye or and or that.
• 2:35:47
  Speaker 2: Oswalt sleeping at Ruth Payne's and Irving wasn't as irregular
• 2:35:57
  Speaker 2: as occurrence as they made out it to be.
• 2:36:01
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:36:02
  Speaker 2: Also never came and and spent the.
• 2:36:05
  Speaker 1: Thursday with Marina, right, always would spend the weekend blah
• 2:36:08
  Speaker 1: blah blah, right kind of I think was at his
• 2:36:12
  Speaker 1: roommatehouse and Fraser was picking him up and taking.
• 2:36:14
  Speaker 2: Him home, right, I know what I'm saying that that
• 2:36:16
  Speaker 2: helps that argument as well.
• 2:36:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm gonna play it again because somebody said
• 2:36:22
  Speaker 1: they missed the last part of it.
• 2:36:23
  Speaker 15: I mean, and then he went in part and didn't
• 2:36:26
  Speaker 15: win a part right my content, that's right, But I
• 2:36:29
  Speaker 15: didn't see any of it.
• 2:36:30
  Speaker 1: I can't say, because I was. He put him out
• 2:36:34
  Speaker 1: in the bag. He's always putting back.
• 2:36:36
  Speaker 7: Now.
• 2:36:36
  Speaker 15: You said he wrote with him on weekend.
• 2:36:38
  Speaker 2: He wrote with him every day really Monday through Traday.
• 2:36:41
  Speaker 1: Really we didn't know that. And he would bring him
• 2:36:46
  Speaker 1: but he would own it. He would let him out
• 2:36:47
  Speaker 1: in the bag.
• 2:36:48
  Speaker 2: But that's what we're gonna ky.
• 2:36:56
  Speaker 1: There it is. You got five different eyewitnesses saying that
• 2:37:02
  Speaker 1: he brought him to work every day, that he let
• 2:37:04
  Speaker 1: him out at the back door. Okay, yeah, And Fraser
• 2:37:15
  Speaker 1: has been lying about it for all these years, all
• 2:37:19
  Speaker 1: these years, and I understand why he did it back
• 2:37:23
  Speaker 1: then because he didn't want to get caught up in
• 2:37:25
  Speaker 1: this shit. And I get it. I get it. But
• 2:37:29
  Speaker 1: at some point, dude, you're pushing Aid to give up
• 2:37:32
  Speaker 1: the goat man, you know what I'm saying.
• 2:37:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's uh, the whole situation. I believe roy Lewis
• 2:37:48
  Speaker 2: is also an African American TSBD employee, right to what
• 2:37:55
  Speaker 2: Roy Lewis is also an African American esp Yeah, yeah,
• 2:38:00
  Speaker 2: kind of fits into Uh, he.
• 2:38:02
  Speaker 1: Was actually working there illegally, he was a little too
• 2:38:07
  Speaker 1: young to be working there, but he was working there. Nonetheless,
• 2:38:15
  Speaker 1: urn And says, and all the Fraser's observations about Oswalda
• 2:38:17
  Speaker 1: interacting with these children and how many picnics and shit
• 2:38:20
  Speaker 1: did they share seem like friends not just coworkers. Exactly exactly. Yeah, Oh,
• 2:38:28
  Speaker 1: we just talked about the weather. Looks like a whole
• 2:38:30
  Speaker 1: lot of rain. Todaily might have to put on my moccasins.
• 2:38:36
  Speaker 2: Over through the mud exactly. And I have a couple
• 2:38:41
  Speaker 2: comments started before we signed off, because we're almost two
• 2:38:46
  Speaker 2: hours and forty minutes. But uh, Cammy says, Fraser seemed
• 2:38:51
  Speaker 2: a bit touched to me.
• 2:38:55
  Speaker 1: He was just he's just a very simple dude, Like
• 2:38:58
  Speaker 1: he's a very simple country bumpkin type dude. And I
• 2:39:02
  Speaker 1: think he was very naive and he got caught up
• 2:39:06
  Speaker 1: some shit. I mean, he was charged with being an
• 2:39:08
  Speaker 1: accomplished to the murder of the president. They asked him
• 2:39:11
  Speaker 1: sign of confession, he was arrested, brought in giving a
• 2:39:14
  Speaker 1: polygraph examination, you know. So of course I understand why
• 2:39:20
  Speaker 1: he would lie about it. You know, I didn't really
• 2:39:22
  Speaker 1: know him that well, only game arrived back to Irving.
• 2:39:26
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I didn't really talk about much, you know, I
• 2:39:31
  Speaker 1: get it, but at some point, man some point. Yeah,
• 2:39:38
  Speaker 1: and this is why Jack I don't want him on
• 2:39:42
  Speaker 1: my show, because I'm going to ask the hard questions
• 2:39:46
  Speaker 1: and he ain't gonna answer.
• 2:39:49
  Speaker 2: So anyway, Yeah, a couple more comments here, Sally, we
• 2:39:56
  Speaker 2: were talking about the meetup of the t lgfam. She's
• 2:40:02
  Speaker 2: on Blue Sky. If anyone wants a message or arrange
• 2:40:04
  Speaker 2: some type of video chat and also said she's around
• 2:40:10
  Speaker 2: for a Zoom meet up, and also Scott Edwards said
• 2:40:14
  Speaker 2: the same thing. And I'm thinking, Rob, that would be
• 2:40:17
  Speaker 2: a cool thing.
• 2:40:17
  Speaker 1: To do.
• 2:40:19
  Speaker 2: On our members only, you know what I mean, just
• 2:40:22
  Speaker 2: like have anyone come up chat with us. If you
• 2:40:25
  Speaker 2: want to have video on, you can, if you want
• 2:40:28
  Speaker 2: to have it blanked out, you can, and just like
• 2:40:31
  Speaker 2: have a bullshit session.
• 2:40:34
  Speaker 1: I wonder how many people we can we can invite
• 2:40:36
  Speaker 1: on here. I mean, this is kind of like a
• 2:40:38
  Speaker 1: Zoom call. They can just follow the link in here.
• 2:40:41
  Speaker 1: I just don't know how many people we can get
• 2:40:43
  Speaker 1: in here. I mean, I'm we're gonna have.
• 2:40:48
  Speaker 2: I'll do some checking because spoiler, in two weeks we're
• 2:40:52
  Speaker 2: gonna have two guests, and next week we're gonna have
• 2:40:56
  Speaker 2: two guests on, so we will find out at.
• 2:40:59
  Speaker 1: The same time. Yeah, I'm sure it split us into four,
• 2:41:02
  Speaker 1: but you know, I think I want to say we
• 2:41:05
  Speaker 1: can have up to twenty people in here at the
• 2:41:06
  Speaker 1: same time. I'm not sure though.
• 2:41:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it's possible, And.
• 2:41:13
  Speaker 1: We'll just do a free for all Friday and just
• 2:41:17
  Speaker 1: rotate people in and out and try to get everybody
• 2:41:20
  Speaker 1: on that wants to come on, and that.
• 2:41:22
  Speaker 2: Sounds fun and you know whether it's members only, because
• 2:41:25
  Speaker 2: you know, not everyone wants to be on YouTube.
• 2:41:29
  Speaker 1: Member members only, right, and everybody man, everybody wants to
• 2:41:35
  Speaker 1: come in and to be able to come Hey, hey,
• 2:41:36
  Speaker 1: I am down.
• 2:41:37
  Speaker 2: I think that'd be fun as hell. And last one
• 2:41:40
  Speaker 2: I had are you suggesting l E h O and
• 2:41:43
  Speaker 2: uh Buell were doing the nasty? I don't think we
• 2:41:48
  Speaker 2: were suggested. No, no, no closer than what he.
• 2:41:55
  Speaker 1: H We're probably more friends. Sure they talk, I think. Okay,
• 2:42:00
  Speaker 1: Fraser's this country bumpkin from bumfuck Texas who hasn't ever
• 2:42:05
  Speaker 1: stepped foot out of his hometown in nineteen years, all right,
• 2:42:09
  Speaker 1: doesn't no ship from Shinola, And all of a sudden
• 2:42:12
  Speaker 1: you're stuck in this car giving this dude to ride
• 2:42:13
  Speaker 1: to and from work every day, who, at this point
• 2:42:17
  Speaker 1: in his life has joined the Marine Corps, went to Japan,
• 2:42:23
  Speaker 1: been all around the United States, lived in Russia, married
• 2:42:27
  Speaker 1: a Russian woman, moved back to the United States. You know,
• 2:42:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, this dude's lived an incredibly crazy life by
• 2:42:36
  Speaker 1: this point in time. And you know Oswald's ego would
• 2:42:40
  Speaker 1: have ate this shit up at Frasers. You really Oh
• 2:42:45
  Speaker 1: my gosh, you really went to Russia. Oh my gosh,
• 2:42:49
  Speaker 1: Oh you married a Russian girl? Oh my, does she
• 2:42:52
  Speaker 1: got all her teeth?
• 2:42:53
  Speaker 3: I mean?
• 2:42:54
  Speaker 2: Houses working? How's this all work?
• 2:42:56
  Speaker 1: Lee? Yeah?
• 2:42:59
  Speaker 2: No, there would be a you know, And of course
• 2:43:03
  Speaker 2: we mentioned the four people we discussed and their comments,
• 2:43:08
  Speaker 2: and they were all consistent of how Oswald kept to
• 2:43:12
  Speaker 2: himself and kind of did his own thing and didn't
• 2:43:16
  Speaker 2: talk to anyone unless necessary.
• 2:43:19
  Speaker 1: But at the end of the right to work you
• 2:43:23
  Speaker 1: really went to Japan, Lee, with all him slaying that
• 2:43:25
  Speaker 1: people are were.
• 2:43:27
  Speaker 2: Right, But that's a just different situation. If you're giving
• 2:43:30
  Speaker 2: Lee a ride to work every day, or most days
• 2:43:34
  Speaker 2: or a majority of days, you're going to have some conversation.
• 2:43:38
  Speaker 2: And as we've discussed, Lee is friendly if you're somewhat
• 2:43:44
  Speaker 2: friendly to him and you can talk about some of
• 2:43:48
  Speaker 2: the topics he's interested in.
• 2:43:49
  Speaker 1: And when you're stuck in a car with somebody and
• 2:43:51
  Speaker 1: there's nobody else around, right, it would be hella awkward
• 2:43:55
  Speaker 1: not to talk to him, right, right, you know? I
• 2:43:58
  Speaker 1: mean that's like, you know, if I'm doing this guy
• 2:44:01
  Speaker 1: a favor by taking him to fucking work, and driving
• 2:44:04
  Speaker 1: him out the irving Yeah, at least make some at
• 2:44:07
  Speaker 1: least we talked to me, Bro, you ain't just gonna
• 2:44:09
  Speaker 1: sit over there and not say ship or fuck you
• 2:44:12
  Speaker 1: you know, figure it out.
• 2:44:14
  Speaker 2: No, But to your point, it's uh, you know Lee
• 2:44:17
  Speaker 2: had been in Japan and the Philippines, Indonesia, Russia, Uh,
• 2:44:24
  Speaker 2: in Mexico. Yeah, I mean, this dude's been around the
• 2:44:29
  Speaker 2: crazy life. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
• 2:44:31
  Speaker 1: Like they it wouldn't have been so hard to drum
• 2:44:36
  Speaker 1: up a conversation with him, for sure, right, And like
• 2:44:38
  Speaker 1: I said, Lee's ego would have ate that sho.
• 2:44:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, and uh, let's see we have Oh,
• 2:44:49
  Speaker 2: Sally said, uh, she would be up for that. Just
• 2:44:51
  Speaker 2: give her a warning so she could put on her face,
• 2:44:54
  Speaker 2: which I think means makeup.
• 2:44:56
  Speaker 1: Uh, what's my girlfriend, it's makeup.
• 2:45:00
  Speaker 2: I don't even think you needed, Sally. But yeah, I
• 2:45:03
  Speaker 2: mean it would be fun and maybe.
• 2:45:05
  Speaker 14: We'll really an alien or all that makeup, take our
• 2:45:11
  Speaker 14: face off and be like, No, I think that'd be fun, Rob,
• 2:45:14
  Speaker 14: And that's why, Yeah, I'm gonna check into it and
• 2:45:16
  Speaker 14: see what we can do on here, because that'd.
• 2:45:18
  Speaker 1: Be kind of cool.
• 2:45:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be for sure. So all right, that's
• 2:45:23
  Speaker 2: all the start comments I had, sir, And since we
• 2:45:27
  Speaker 2: were two forty five in, I don't have anything else
• 2:45:31
  Speaker 2: but another banger. That's what we do, the bangers.
• 2:45:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, folks, thank you so much for hanging with us.
• 2:45:40
  Speaker 1: It's always fun. Hopefully this is a good one for you.
• 2:45:43
  Speaker 1: We got a good one for you next week. But
• 2:45:45
  Speaker 1: tune in next Wednesday when you'll find out who we're
• 2:45:49
  Speaker 1: gonna be having on the show. We will reveal that
• 2:45:51
  Speaker 1: next week on the members only show. So if you
• 2:45:54
  Speaker 1: haven't signed up yet, you're missing out. I'm telling you.
• 2:45:57
  Speaker 1: You can ask all the members here if it's worth it,
• 2:45:59
  Speaker 1: and they will tell you, yes, it is worth it
• 2:46:03
  Speaker 1: because we talk about all kinds of other ship that
• 2:46:05
  Speaker 1: we don't talk about here. And you know there there
• 2:46:10
  Speaker 1: are full length shows. There's no half ass in it
• 2:46:12
  Speaker 1: for for your boys. Okay, we give it to you.
• 2:46:16
  Speaker 2: Check it out and help ourselves.
• 2:46:18
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 2:46:20
  Speaker 2: We tried to actually limit it to an hour and
• 2:46:23
  Speaker 2: we are not capable.
• 2:46:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you get four extra shows a month. I mean
• 2:46:28
  Speaker 1: it's worth it.
• 2:46:29
  Speaker 2: Trust me.
• 2:46:29
  Speaker 1: They're good ones. Yeah, and like I said, we can
• 2:46:32
  Speaker 1: talk a whole lot more freely on those shows because
• 2:46:34
  Speaker 1: we don't monetizement all. There should be any commercials in
• 2:46:37
  Speaker 1: them at all. It's just for our members. So you
• 2:46:40
  Speaker 1: can always upgrade your membership to be a covert operator
• 2:46:43
  Speaker 1: if you're a spook and check it out, or or
• 2:46:48
  Speaker 1: or join up and hang out with us. We have
• 2:46:52
  Speaker 1: a blast. Just ask Tray he'll tell you.
• 2:46:55
  Speaker 2: And we talked about current current conspiracies as well.
• 2:46:59
  Speaker 1: Ye, all kinds of goods. So that being said, Dino
• 2:47:03
  Speaker 1: Ruby Ruby Ruby is with Erica somewhere. Oh my god,
• 2:47:10
  Speaker 1: I know she loved the trader is bitch. I'm talking
• 2:47:16
  Speaker 1: about the dog, not.
• 2:47:17
  Speaker 2: Eric, I'm talking about Givens.
• 2:47:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, bless her anyway, Yes, bless h. Let's dance about
• 2:47:33
  Speaker 1: this bit, Joe. You have to dance on your own.
• 2:47:36
  Speaker 1: You can't make Ruby dance now, no handpuff a fore
• 2:47:41
  Speaker 1: you tonight, sir.
• 2:47:47
  Speaker 2: The greatest lies are told in the name of truth,
• 2:47:50
  Speaker 2: the greatest crime.
• 2:47:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you, guys, We love you. The quotation is Jim Wednesday,
• 2:47:55
  Speaker 1: he could him or against him? And this good night. MH.
• 2:48:01
  Speaker 2: I hear a scratching up the door.
• 2:48:05
  Speaker 1: I hear a scratching bus. You can't come in.
• 2:48:11
  Speaker 4: H h.
• 2:48:20
  Speaker 2: Peace, Peace, guys and took in grease and weekend Yes, sir,