Latest / The Epstein Chronicles / Murder In Moscow: The Experts Behind The case Against Bryan Kohberger (Part 12) (9/8/26)

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Murder In Moscow: The Experts Behind The case Against Bryan Kohberger (Part 12) (9/8/26) · The Epstein Chronicles

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome back to the program. In
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to get right back to the
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: expert report and the rebuttals up in Moscow. 3. Dr.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Turvey indicates that Gonsalves and Mogan were posed. The evidence
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: suggests that after both victims were killed or unresponsive, they
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: were posed in their shared bed. Kaylee was moved from
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: a position with her head in the pillow to partially
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: atop of Madison. Then the comforter was placed over them both.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Sutton comments, posing is a possibility but not a determination
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: that can be made to the exclusion of other explanations
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: for their positioning. As Dr. Turvey states quoted below, posing
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: requires an intentional act. This refers to intentionally arranging the
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: scene for effect. In the present case, the bodies of
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Cayley and Madison were posed together after the lethal attack
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: suffered by both, and then they covered together with a comforter,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Bates 004045. Cayley was moved from a position with her
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: head on the pillow to partially atop of Madison. There
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: are discrete transfers on the pillow consistent with the contact
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: being made by Gonsalves' bloodied head, but these discrete transfers
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: could be the result of several mechanisms. Purposeful movement before
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: she was rendered unresponsive, movement of her head caused by
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: blows or in response to blows by the assailant, movement
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: during the struggle, intentionally or inadvertently moved by the assailant.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: As for the comforter being placed over them, the spatter
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: on the bottom sheet was limited to approximately chest level.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: With a limited distribution of spatter on the bottom sheet,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: it's difficult to determine with certainty that the comforter has
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: been moved. 3. Dr. Turvey makes several statements regarding the
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: extent of blood that would be on the perpetrator. The
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: extensive and close-up nature of the attacks on Caylee and Madison,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: along with the blood spatter evident in the room, and
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: the moving of Caylee's body, are evidence that the suspect's
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: upper bodies, face, hair, hands, arms, and chest area, would
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: have been covered in blood. All available physical and blood
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: evidence suggests that these were the first victims, that they
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: were specifically sought out on the third floor, and that
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: the suspect then moved downstairs to the second floor, where
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: at least one of the suspects was observed by Zanna Cronodal.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: This would have been covered in blood. The extensive and
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: close-up nature of the attacks on Zanna and Ethan, along
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: with a blood spatter and blood smears evident in the room,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: are evidence that the suspect's entire bodies, face, hair, hands, arms,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: chest area, legs, and feet, footwear, would have been covered
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: in blood. Sutton comments, The term covered in blood is
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: not scientifically quantifiable. There is certain evidence that the assailant
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: in the case had some degree of blood stain on
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: the person or on the object in their possession, and
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: the secondary blood transfers resulted by subsequent movement through the scene.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: The number and quantity of bloodstains that were secondarily transferred
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: in the scene were relatively small. Even during the violent
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: activity associated with an assault, only a small number and
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: quantity of blood was transferred outside the bedrooms. While spatter
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: was widely distributed in both bedrooms involved, the amount of
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: spatter in the surrounding area where the perpetrator would have
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: been located has to create a void. If a perpetrator
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: had been covered in blood, it seems a void would
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: be identifiable. Dr. Turvey himself points out that there's a
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: lack of bloody footwear pattern at the scene in general.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Precautionary acts. The precautionary acts in the case include the
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: execution of living witnesses, the cleanup of bloody hands, feet, footwear,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: and clothing before leaving, and the disposal of said clothing
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: along with the weapon used. Direct evidence for this cleanup
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: can be found in at least some of the dilute
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: blood transfer which is located in different areas of the home.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Indirect evidence includes absence of bloody transfer from feet and hands,
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  Speaker 1: despite the movement of suspect within the homes, the necessary
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: opening of doors, and the absence of bloody footwear patterns
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: at the scene in general. All of this would have
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: required an extensive amount of time at the scene to clean,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: perhaps hours, which is inconsistent with the state's theory that
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: the crimes were committed within a time interval less than
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: 15 to 20 minutes, subsequent to 4 a.m. Bates 00405. Dr.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Turvey refers to indicators of more than one assailant. It's
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: not reasonable to think that Ethan would have remained in
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  Speaker 1: his bed after waking up or being awake while Zanna
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  Speaker 1: was being attacked in front of him. This evidence and
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: context begin to suggest the existence of a second attacker.
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  Speaker 1: This issue will be addressed in a later section of
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: this report. Bates number 004044. B. Number of suspects. At
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: least two suspects were involved in the attack. This is
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  Speaker 1: indicated by the fact that multiple weapons were used against Cayley,
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  Speaker 1: that multiple types of lethal force were used against Cayley,
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  Speaker 1: and that Ethan and Xana appear to have been attacked
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: at the same time. This is inconsistent with the state's
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: theory that these crimes were committed solely by one individual.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Sutton comments, There's evidence that Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: were in close proximity to each other at some point
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: after the assault began, as evidenced by the findings of
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  Speaker 1: Kernodle's blood and DNA, under the fingernails of Ethan Chapin's
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  Speaker 1: right hand, and the finding of Chapin's blood and DNA
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: under the fingernails of both of Zanna Kernodle's hands. One
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: assailant could contain two people in close proximity to each other,
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  Speaker 1: especially if the assailant is armed. A single perpetrator can
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: certainly use more than one weapon, and can use multiple
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: types of lethal force. 5. Dr. Turvey indicates that an
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: excessive amount of time would be required for a perpetrator
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  Speaker 1: to clean up after the assault. 1. Planning Whatever planning
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  Speaker 1: may have taken place with respect to the crime, it
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  Speaker 1: resulted in an excessive number of victims with an excess
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: of blood transfer and bloody clothing on the part of
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  Speaker 1: the suspect. This took additional time to both effect and
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: clean up before they could leave. 2. Precautionary Acts The
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: precautionary acts in this case include the execution of living witnesses,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: the cleanup of bloody hands, feet, footwear, and clothing before leaving,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: and the disposal of said clothing along with the weapon used.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Direct evidence of this cleanup can be found in at
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: least some of the dilute blood transfer which was located
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: in different areas of the home. Indirect evidence includes the
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: absence of bloody transfer from feet and hands despite the
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: movement of suspects within the home, the necessary opening of doors,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: the absence of bloody footwear patterns at the scene in general.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: All this would have required an extensive amount of time
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: at the scene to clean, perhaps hours, which is inconsistent
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: with the state's theory that the crimes were committed within
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: a time interval less than then 15 to 20 minutes.
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  Speaker 1: Sutton comments, Washing or wiping hands takes little time, especially
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: if preparations for cleaning are made beforehand. Removal of protective
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: clothing and shoe coverings takes seconds. 6. Turvey reports that
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  Speaker 1: the knife sheath was staged for the following reasons. Staging.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Crime scene staging refers to an attempt to confuse or
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: misdirect a law enforcement investigation by altering, fabricating, or planting
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: evidence in relation to a crime scene. In the present case,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: a K-bar knife sheath was discovered in the crime scene
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: by law enforcement. Evidence of staging with respect to this
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  Speaker 1: item of evidence is as follows. Turvey. The sheath was
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: found precariously placed just slightly under the body of Madison
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Mogan and partially covered by the comforter that was placed
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: atop the midsection of her body by the suspects. It
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: could not have fallen accidentally into this location. Sutton comments.
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  Speaker 1: The sheath. could have become trapped under Madison Mogan's body
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  Speaker 1: when she moved her left leg out of the bed.
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  Speaker 1: If she were hardly moving her left leg, she would
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  Speaker 1: not have taken time to move the comforter, in which
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  Speaker 1: case the sheath would be trapped between the comforter and
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: the bed. It would be reasonable for the sheath to
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: be in this location because the evidence indicates that Kelly
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Gonsalves and Madison Mogan were the first to be killed. Dr.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Turvey also concluded that Gonsalves and Mogan were the first
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  Speaker 1: to be killed. The sheath could have been covered by
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: the comforter during the assault, when and if the comforter
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: was moved by someone other than the decedent, or even
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: when someone was searching for the sheath. There's no physical
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  Speaker 1: evidence to determine which scenario is more likely. A second
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  Speaker 1: reason Dr. Turvey feels the sheath was staged. The sheath
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  Speaker 1: was new and unused, as indicated by the absence of
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  Speaker 1: damage or wear to the leather. Sutton comments... Unsure why
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  Speaker 1: this proves that staging occurred, it could just easily mean
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  Speaker 1: the knife was subjected to only light use in the
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  Speaker 1: past or it was purchased for this purpose. A third reason, Dr.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Turvey feels that the sheath was staged. The sheath was
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: face down and had received only a few areas of
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: minute blood spatter, impact or aspirated, while resting atop a
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: sheet with significant impact spatter all around. The inconsistency of
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  Speaker 1: blood spatter dispersion and density indicate transfer occurring at different
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: times under different conditions with different levels of intensity. Sutton comments,
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  Speaker 1: The difference in the amount of spatter on the sheath
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: versus the amount on the fitted sheet or even the
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: comforter simply proves that the sheath came to rest in
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: this location where it was discovered at a different time
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  Speaker 1: during the spatter producing events. It does not prove that
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  Speaker 1: it was staged in this location. The sheath could have
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: been at another location when it was spattered and then
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: moved here at a later time. If the perpetrator moved
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  Speaker 1: the comforter as Dr. Turvey believes, the sheath could have
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  Speaker 1: been moved to this location when the comforter was moved.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: This could account for a different amount of spatter on
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  Speaker 1: the exposed surface of the sheath and the exposed surface
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: of the bedsheet. A fourth reason Dr. Turvey feels the
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  Speaker 1: sheath was staged, the sheath was placed at the location
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  Speaker 1: without receiving bloody transfer from the hands or fingers of
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  Speaker 1: the suspect, that did it. This means it was done
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: after the attacks posing, but also after the suspect had
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: washed their hands, subsequent to cleanup efforts, and the scene.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Sutton comments, It's true that there are no bloody transfers
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: visible on the knife sheath, but the significance of the
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: finding does not support that the placement of the sheath
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: was staged. It could have gotten in this location without
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: having been touched by a perpetrator or even after their
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: hands were cleaned or gloves removed. Either scenario would explain
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: the lack of contact staining without staging having occurred. Technical
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: and pure review by Paul Irwin, Kish, February 13th, 2025.
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  Speaker 1: Alright folks, so that is the report that was put
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: out and the argument that was had between the prosecution
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: and the defense. All the information that goes with this
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: episode can be found in the description box.