Latest / iRefresh Podcast / EP 32 The Power of Forgiveness - Deana, Carrie & Patty

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EP 32 The Power of Forgiveness - Deana, Carrie & Patty · iRefresh Podcast

• 0:05
  After a decade of gathering women together for prayer, we are inspired to bring our words of encouragement to you. This is iRefresh. Welcome to iRefresh. We are ordinary women desiring to do extraordinary things through the power of encouragement, prayer, and the Word of God. So thank you for joining us today. We have a great topic today, I think, and I'll introduce you to my guest. This is Carrie Kittinger. And I'm a woman.
• 0:32
  Patty Gerstenberger, both wonderful women involved in the iRefresh ministry. And today our topic is forgiveness. That ouchy word. Yes, yes. So the thing that was revolutionary to me with forgiveness, the one Bible verse I think that really shocked me into being a forgiving person was if we do not forgive, God will not forgive us. And I think that to me,
• 1:01
  You know, we've just sinned so much, even if it's little. And the other thing for me that forgiveness meant is when I realized that God sees all sin the same. As humans, our emotions get involved. And it's hard to see that a murderer would be the same as someone who,
• 1:17
  is lying or cheating or something simple in human terms. Do you know what I'm saying? So what is your opinion or thoughts on that? Well, in forgiveness, one of the things that I'm reminded of, Dina, is Jesus, the night before he was betrayed,
• 1:34
  He washed Judas's feet, knowing full well that Judas was going to betray him. And then on the cross, he said, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. And so I think what Jesus is saying, he was willing to forgive the man himself.
• 1:50
  who betrayed him to death. And then he was willing to say, Father, forgive them. Forgive the thieves on either side of me. Forgive those that have put me here on this cross. And so, wow, that's our example of forgiveness right there. And so when we want to hold somebody
• 2:07
  for something, you know, seemingly smaller than death on a cross, right? Then Jesus is saying, hey, I've given you, I've pardoned everything for you. And so if you're not willing to pardon a little offense, then...
• 2:24
  wow, we need to have a conversation here, right? That's true, that's true, because we all need forgiveness in different ways. We do, we do. Patty was talking about the root. Talk about the root of that word. So one of the roots of unforgiveness is really offense. And when you look at the Greek term offense, it means scandalous. And even that word scandalous, which we really don't hear as much. But what it is, is if you take a look at a bait, like a trap,
• 2:52
  that you maybe you set for say a rat the bait part of the trap that's actually the offense. So even when I see an offense I can choose not to take it. Which sometimes I forget when somebody says something I don't have to assume the worst. But honestly, I have trained myself to know what they're thinking or know what they meant and I don't. So even to be in a position of I'm not going to take that bait. I'm going to
• 3:22
  assume that that's not what they meant and sometimes that means we have to ask questions. But I'm very encouraged, my brother-in-law John Boland was taught as a small child to not take offense. That's something that was very important in their family makeup that you assume the innocence of the relationship. That's been such an example that
• 3:43
  I do want to think the best of everyone. I don't want people to be on pins and needles whenever they're with me. And I can do that. And that's not really God's best for us to even, you know, on either side. I don't want people to think the worst of me. And I don't want to be the person who's always getting offended or offended easily. But I think that's hard because we are human. We have emotions. And when we are hurt, the depths that that hurt can go just clouds our view. Like if you think of it in marriage, how many times
• 4:14
  spouse might say something that hurts you and rather than communicating and talking through it we harbor that hurt and then the next time they say something that maybe is slightly maybe comes out wrong and is slightly offensive could be we are quick to assume that they're our enemy when truthfully in a marriage you're on the same team and to be able to always assume the best of the other person and we should do that like you said in life in general I think that's a great
• 4:43
  a great perspective to have. Well, I think we are quick to judge people's outside actions, right? And here, we don't know their hearts. I mean, really, at the end of the day, we can't be the judge of someone's heart, right? We have to leave that up to the Lord. And so when we harbor unforgiveness, we're really sitting as judge.
• 5:06
  We're saying what you've done is so awful that I'm going to hold that against you. And what happens is, is when we don't forgive, then we're actually still attached to that offense or that wrong that's been done.
• 5:21
  But when we choose to forgive, part of the word forgive is that we actually hand something over to somebody. And so think about in the realm of Christianity, when we choose to forgive somebody, what we're doing is we're handing them over to the righteous judge. We're handing them over to the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, and he will have the final word in the end. It's...
• 5:46
  My final word won't hold. Right. But when Jesus speaks, that's going to hold. And so when I'm handing somebody over, I'm offering pardon, I'm offering forgiveness. I'm really detaching myself of the wrong and of the offense and of the hurt. But when I choose not to forgive, it's like I'm just I'm I'm keeping all that hurt. I'm keeping that offense. I'm keeping that because I don't trust you, Lord. But when I can trust the wrong done,
• 6:16
  to the righteous judge, then there's a freedom. There's freedom and forgiveness. There really is. And I think it's so easy for us to embrace the hurt. It's familiar, you know, so that we almost get to a point where we that's normal for us, you know, and we don't ever want hurt to be our normal. Yeah. You know, because God has so much more for us beyond that. And I think a lot of times that forgiveness, because I've been divorced for 10 years.
• 6:41
  And people who are walking through divorce, I know that it can be very difficult, even if it starts out a pleasurable or an amicable divorce as the years go on and things happen. And it's so easy to let bitterness rise up in you and anger. I mean, so many issues in divorce happen like that. And it can be.
• 7:02
  like there were times when it was minute by minute for me I just had to forgive and something that I thought I got over there would it would happen again you know 10 20 times so so I think even in if we can be forgiving someone and not feel it right but it's speaking it I do forgive them God I forgive them you know and I walk through it still
• 7:22
  So I think it's a daily choice, a minute-by-minute choice sometimes, but we have to give them over to God. We have to say, God's in control. He knows things we don't know, and he will make this right in the right time. And it speaks up his trust. Yes.
• 7:37
  it's an invitation. I don't have to take it, but really it's an invitation that He doesn't want you to hold that. And when I have held on to unforgiveness, it's almost like I bring that from the past into the now. Then I give it permission to damage my future. And that's, you know, if I'm so offended, now that almost takes a life of its own. And I'm happy to share why I'm so offended. And it grows.
• 8:03
  and then we almost create a community of offense and that's not God's Word specifically speaks to the importance like you said of forgiveness and it's the imitation of freedom versus bondage and like you said when I realized I don't have a choice I if I make the choice
• 8:25
  of walking in unforgiveness and feeling righteous, I have taken God off of the cross and put myself on there. And that's a pretty scary place to think that I can save myself. Because I can't.
• 8:40
  I think Patty, you had a good point earlier when you're talking about your brother-in-law who was taught not to be offended. And I think, you know, we have to remember that we have the Holy Spirit, you know, within us if we've, if we've asked the Lord to be the Lord of our lives. And so he is the counselor. He is the teacher. And so he, he teaches us things from heaven, right? There's no unforgiveness in heaven. There's not. And so even, you know, the prayer that we pray, the father's prayer, you know, the
• 9:10
  Lord, forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who've trespassed against us. And so I think one of the most important things that we taught our kids growing up was the phrase, will you forgive me? Because it's easier to say, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But when you say there's something humbling about saying, will you forgive me?
• 9:33
  And, um, and that's just a powerful thing. And the other thing is as a parent, I had to use the words often, will you forgive me? So I showed my kids how to do that because guess what? I messed up as the parent. There were times I raised my voice. There were times that I, you know, maybe ignored something that they needed. And so I had to say, will you forgive me?
• 9:53
  And so even teaching our children how to be humble in that and asking the Lord, Lord, would you teach me? Because he is, he's a wonderful teacher and he'll do it if we ask him. You know what scripture always got me was it's really hard. I'm like, God, why did you put this one in the Bible? To love your enemies, love those who persecute you. And yeah, I can, I can remember times I cried out and said, why God? So when my husband left, he actually left me for another woman.
• 10:22
  and I would I had put my whole identity in who my husband thought I was so for me that was so crushing and I can remember sitting in my car contemplating suicide this was 10 years ago and I bawled and bawled and hurt it was just so crushing and I never thought I would be in that place but it's because God had slipped off the throne in my life you know and I had put my husband there but as I was sitting there a friend of mine Patty had had tried calling me and she didn't know what was going on but she said well
• 10:52
  I'm going to pray for you. And I hung up because I had all these thoughts. And I remember sitting there, and I was probably there for three hours, just battling these thoughts. And I was like,
• 11:01
  God said, pray for them. I was like, I'm not going to pray for them. They are hurting me. You know, he betrayed me. Wow, in the moment. And it was really hard. But you know, after those three hours, I succumbed to that. And it was through tears and bitterness. It was gritted teeth. But I said, I forgive them. And all I could say was, God bless them. That was it. And as the weeks went on, I would continue to do that.
• 11:28
  But when I did that, all the suicidal thoughts went away. And it was a process. I think forgiveness is a process. And it's something that you have to walk out every day. But at that moment, I had to make that choice. And I think we all get in situations where we can be so overwhelmed with hurt, with betrayal, with so many things that we feel hopeless. But the one thing that we think is hard is,
• 11:54
  If we actually submit to God in that moment and say, okay, I forgive them. Sometimes it's just saying it. You may not feel it for a long time.
• 12:03
  And I can say today, 10 years later, I totally forgive them and wish the best for them, you know, and I do pray for them. So it is a process, you know. And in every day. Yes. You know, I'm reminded just what the root of bitterness, you know, for me to choose not to have forgiveness that I'm inviting that root of bitterness. And, you know, scientifically, they've talked about what the root of bitterness does to our bodies.
• 12:31
  health wise, but even for me to think that I can brush off or put a bandaid on something, really it takes a surgery by the great surgeon. And only God can remove that root of bitterness. But he has so much better for us with love.
• 12:50
  That he doesn't want us to have that in our hearts. But it's still a choice. It's every, just like you said, every day it's a choice. And I think forgiveness, as you were sharing your story, Dina, we have to remember that it's not saying that what someone did to us is right. So when we're forgiving somebody, we're not, we're really...
• 13:11
  We're taking them off of our hook and we're putting them onto God's hook, right? Because he will write. There will be a day that everything will be right. When we're with Jesus face to face, we will have to be held accountable for the way that we forgave.
• 13:28
  and the way that we treated one another. So when I choose to forgive, I'm not saying, oh, what you did, it's okay, it's okay. You know what, it's the things that were done to you were not okay. But when you chose to forgive, that hook of unforgiveness is no longer
• 13:43
  able to cause that root of bitterness or to be that barb in your heart. And you've, you've taken that person off of your hook and put them onto the Lord's hook. And left it there. And absolutely. Exactly. Don't take it back. There's times I've taken it back. But again, it is just continually turning it over to God.
• 14:02
  Well, one of the things that, that, um, I'm reminded of is really in a, in myself, I cannot forgive. I really can't because, because honestly, left up to me, I want to be right left up to me. I want, I want someone to pay for what they've done. Right. But when it's Christ in me, I'm,
• 14:24
  When I can say, because of what Jesus has forgiven me for, and because now he dwells within me and he's shown me the way, I too can forgive. And one of the verses that really stood out to me was out of Ephesians 4.32.
• 14:40
  It says, be kind and compassionate toward one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ, God forgave you. So, you know, it's in Christ that we were even forgiven by our own sins. And so then again, it's in Christ and in his power and in his compassion that we can forgive others. And I know that's easier said than done. But one of the things is, and I think Patty, you've talked about this. What is my focus going to be on? Am I going to focus on...
• 15:10
  on all the things that have been done wrong to me? Or is my focus going to be on who I am in the Lord? And it's almost like, you know what? That's so small in comparison to what God has forgiven me for and the beautiful life that he has for me to live that I can't live when I'm walking here in unforgiveness. Right. You know, and in my situation, I did choose to forgive, you know, and it's been a process. But on his side, I can say that he didn't.
• 15:37
  And the shame and the guilt that he has lived with has altered who he is as a person in a negative way. And even in an encounter recently, I saw that and I thought, you know, that could have been me. I could have been eaten up with.
• 15:53
  with bitterness and anger and rage, but I chose to forgive. And it was the hardest moment of my life, but it was God's way of saying, I have more for you. And he does. On the other side of anguish, there's always something better if we choose to do what God's told us to do. Absolutely. And having a community who can ask you.
• 16:15
  how did it go today? Or how are you doing and forgiving? That we can really communicate and have friends who walk out in love and forgiveness. I can't afford to be around people who hate and have unforgiveness and stir up strife and
• 16:34
  It just stirs up things in my own heart that I'm trying to get rid of. Right. So wanting a community and really building your own community and families to walk in that love and forgiveness. But calling that out. No, Dina, that isn't who you are. You know, this is who I say you are. And even getting comfortable with having people say, you're amazing. That's hard to hear that because you think, well, first of all, we think I am.
• 17:01
  Yeah. Well, you think, yeah, but you didn't see me this way. You didn't see this. Right. But that's all. But you need to know you are amazing. The Lord has a plan for you. But it is to walk in love and forgiveness that we can shift our focus. Like you said, that perspective, even asking the Lord, what is your perspective? Because, boy, I've made...
• 17:23
  I've made some really bad mistakes. I've said some very wrong things. And I want the opportunity for someone to say, you hurt me. And for me to say, would you please forgive me? But sometimes being honest with ourself, we feel like we can't even do that. So we rob ourself of having that reconnection with a person that I've just hurt. Right. And forgiving yourself. You know, so many times we feel so guilty
• 17:52
  even even forgiving yourself for from hurting God you know to from betraying him with something as simple as a lie right or anything you know and I think the revelation like I said earlier was for me it's all the same you know so to bring such shame and guilt on yourself right
• 18:11
  is saying God didn't do enough on the cross for us when he did. And I think we talked about this earlier, that being a parent has taught me more about God's love and forgiveness than anything else. Because when we love somebody as much as God loves us, like our kids, you forgive the unforgivable.
• 18:29
  Mm hmm. Right. Mm hmm. Yeah, you really do. And I think it also parenting brings out you think, oh, wow, I didn't realize I was selfish, you know, and you just and you just realize, I think when you see you, you know, it is, Dina's you see your kids through eyes of love. Yeah.
• 18:46
  you know, and because you, you, you are there. Nobody loves my kids like I do, except for the Lord, of course, and my husband. But what I mean is I see my kids through eyes of love. But what happens is, is sometimes I don't view myself through eyes of love or I don't view others through eyes of love. And, you know, we have we see
• 19:04
  everything about us, right? We don't just see the pretty part on the outside. We know every thought, every feeling, every offense, maybe even things that we haven't said that we want to say. I mean, we just we see the yuckiness in ourselves. So one thing that helps me with that is when I ask the Lord, Lord, would you give me your eyes of love and forgiveness for myself? And then also, will you give me your eyes of love and forgiveness for those around me? Because really,
• 19:32
  Again, left up to me.
• 19:35
  sitting judge, boy, I'm going to be the most critical of myself. And then it is going to keep me from being the woman he's called me to be. And when I try to judge other people and I sit as judge before them, I am holding them a bondage to the wrong or the offense that they've done rather than just letting the Lord take care of it. So just asking his eyes for his eyes of love for myself and for others has really, really helped me a lot. Absolutely. And we're called to walk in total forgiveness. Absolutely.
• 20:03
  Even with some of my clients, it's a struggle to forgive. But once they walk through forgiving others, the last one is always themselves. And sometimes we can even justify, well, I'm going to forgive everybody else. You know, I don't need to forgive myself, but that isn't what he's called us to. He has called us to completely forgive.
• 20:28
  And it's almost like the key to our heart is that unforgiveness of me. Because like you said, nobody sees the garbage in my own heart, but God does. We can't, you know, when it says that he sees all of us, he sees everything and he still loves us. Just like we love our children. There's nothing that they could do that would prevent us from loving them.
• 20:51
  So it's a beautiful picture of just how he wants us to completely surrender to his love. Amen. And just rest in that. There's a real freedom in that. That and to love our enemies. You think about that, you know, it's just, I keep going back to that because I've walked so many paths of forgiveness in my life that even a friend can seem like an enemy when they've hurt you. And in,
• 21:17
  in a Christian walk, our true desire should be for everyone to know Christ, right? And to know his love like we know his love, that parental love that is unconditional. So even though they've heard us,
• 21:31
  our motive should be to always push them towards Christ, and to emulate Christ's love towards them, which is hard when you're dealing with human emotions. But if we look at it that way, it's easier to forgive. Absolutely, and I love that you said it's a path, and your path is gonna look different than Carrie's, and Carrie's is gonna look
• 21:50
  different than mine but we can all encourage each other to walk in that forgiveness no matter what the journey you know for you to put your journey on me it's it's just different so being able to encourage each other to walk but also hold each other accountable right for me to tell you I am so hurt by this right for you to step into that instead of being repelled or think well hope that works out for you to step into it and just to ask well
• 22:17
  what are you going to do about that? Those are the steps that, you know, even we're talking about today, we don't want you, if you're feeling the Lord tug in your heart, where you have any unforgiveness, and if you're not sure, ask the Lord. Lord, is there any unforgiveness in my heart? When we ask and pause, He will always answer us. And it's that place of humility that He steps in, and we can take His hand,
• 22:46
  And we can just feel his just his arm around us leading us into that path from unforgiveness into trust. We don't know what's going to happen, but we can trust him. And honestly, sometimes I need to get out of the way. Yeah, I do. There's a verse in Colossians. Colossians is one of my favorite books because it's just so practical. You know, I just I mean, I think, you know, in today's day and age, it's like we just need.
• 23:12
  those practical nuggets of truth. And one of the things that Colossians three says is bear with each other. And so I think when we're walking in unforgiveness, where I mean, we're basically saying you're too much for me and I'm too much for you. And this is just all too much. And we're just and we're not allowing the Lord to carry our burdens. And then we're not because we're carrying the burdens. We can't bear up.
• 23:38
  anybody else's as well. And so part of that bearing with one another is I want people to give me forgiveness and to bear with my grievances, to bear with my attitudes at times. Right. Being honest. Right. Right. That hurt me. Right. But also, I want people to forgive me. I want them to give me the benefit of the doubt. I want them to know, oh, she's probably just not had enough sleep today. That's why she was a little crabby.
• 24:01
  But I don't want to give that to anybody else. Right. So it's like, I want everybody to forgive me and to just be able to bear with my grievances. But wow. One of the things that that verse ends with is, um, forgive as the Lord forgave you and overall put on love. And that's what it boils down to. It does. It does. So if we were going to wrap it up, um, what would you guys say? Let's summarize what we've said. How do people, um,
• 24:30
  come to forgiveness how do they what are the steps that they can take to overcome the hurts that they're feeling ah I think as a coach the first step is always self-assessment and one of the examples that I like to use is if you stepped on a scale we all love the scale right and let's say it showed 186 pounds but you told me oh no I weigh 124 pounds
• 24:56
  So then the question is, well, why are you lying to me? And more importantly, why are you lying to yourself? So even having that self-assessment,
• 25:06
  and being daring enough to ask and pray, Lord, is there any unforgiveness in my life? Those are the scary prayers. If you ask, He will answer you. So I think the first step is to ask. And for me, I think the first step has to always be at the foot of the cross. I mean, Jesus said, if you want to follow me,
• 25:29
  Take up your cross, deny yourself. Part of forgiveness is denying my right to be right, denying myself, and then I can follow after Jesus, right? And so for me, it starts at the cross because at the cross, I think Dina, you brought it out at the beginning. At the cross, I realized I've been forgiven. I've been forgiven so much. And then at the cross, I can see my brothers and sisters in the Lord beside me that also need to be forgiven. And because I've been forgiven much,
• 25:56
  I can forgive. So if I if I start there at the cross, it brings it back to how much I've been forgiven. So it's how can I hold somebody in unforgiveness when God has forgiven me so much? Right. And and I think my input would be that it's a process, you know, and you may not feel it.
• 26:15
  but your obedience says I forgive and even if you have to just speak it day in and day out minute by minute in the moment during the worst of your hurt speak it just that is showing obedience to God and in your obedience God has control and I think that's the most important thing and honestly you know the next step would be to choose to forgive it actually takes a lot of courage to forgive but there's more of a cost if you don't forgive
• 26:45
  And I can say I have chosen forgiveness on many levels, business, professional, personal. And every time I've walked that high road, God has done some kind of restoration or brought something better out of it. And I have remained whole and peaceful. Thank you guys both for being here. Thanks for having us.
• 27:07
  And thank you all for joining us. We'd love you to become a part of our community. You can do that. Our website is iRefresh.net, or you can connect with us on Facebook or Instagram. And we are putting out podcasts, so be sure to sign up and follow us on those on any of the podcast platforms. Until then, go change your world.