Latest / Your Estate Matters / Episode 72 - Avoiding Family Drama Through Estate Planning with Steve Parr
Transcript
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h:"unknown",report:{blockers:d}})}};var O=Math.random(),P=u(),Q=window.ppConfig;Q&&(Q.disableAllReporting||Q.deleteIsEnforced&&Q.sealIsEnforced||O<Q.heartbeatRate&&t(P,Q.productName,{origin:window.location.origin,type:"HEARTBEAT"}));var z=u(),R=window.ppConfig;if(R)if(R.deleteIsEnforced)delete Object.prototype.__proto__;else if(!R.disableAllReporting){var y=R.productName;try{var x,B;Object.defineProperty(Object.prototype,"__proto__",{enumerable:!1,get:w(),set:A()})}catch(a){}} (function(){var a=u(),b=window.ppConfig;b&&(b.sealIsEnforced?Object.seal(Object.prototype):b.disableAllReporting||(document.readyState!=="loading"?C(b,a):document.addEventListener("DOMContentLoaded",function(){C(b,a)})))})();}).call(this); </script><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"><script nonce="vf0DZpvVMs7MCXjOsZxzRw">var DOCS_timing={}; DOCS_timing['pls']=new Date().getTime(); var _F_VIEWER_GRAMMATICAL_GENDER = 'GRAMMATICAL_GENDER_UNSPECIFIED';</script><meta property="og:title" content="YEM ep72 Steve Parr"><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Google Docs"><meta property="og:url" content="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MtlEXxE7CanVHHUV2w7r1ilQw555J0hT1YA7fhA5rtk/edit?usp=sharing&usp=embed_facebook"><meta property="og:image" content="https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyL9OHv7eHMkHuZf0es26AsZggDmhNqCc2re95clT-slmsIG-duV85IL4eWwVe5U2IM2DZyKRssq_RTlJ2LdVnWiNxBPflQ47qqhZra8hGffz9jcDUDE=w1200-h630-p"><meta property="og:image:width" content="1200"><meta property="og:image:height" content="630"><meta property="og:description" content="Nicole Garton 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters, presented by Heritage Trust. Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today t..."><meta name="google" content="notranslate"><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, user-scalable=no, initial-scale=1.0, minimum-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=1.0"><meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge;"><meta name="fragment" content="!"><meta name="referrer" content="origin"><title>YEM ep72 Steve Parr - Google Docs</title><link rel="shortcut icon" href="https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/documents/images/docs-favicon-2026-v2.ico"><link rel="chrome-webstore-item" href="https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/apdfllckaahabafndbhieahigkjlhalf"><script nonce="vf0DZpvVMs7MCXjOsZxzRw">_docs_webfonts_fontFaces = null; _docs_webfonts_iframe_fontFaces = null;DOCS_timing['wpid']=new Date().getTime();</script><style 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Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it\u0027s estate related, we\u0027ll be talking about it. We\u0027re having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow. \n\nHello and welcome to Your Estate Matters. I\u0027m Nicole Garton. Ask most people about estate planning and you\u0027ll hear the same thing. It\u0027s an errand, a legal chore, a stack of documents you signed, put it in a drawer and never think about again. But today we\u0027re challenging that entire frame because in my experience and my guests\u0027 experience, the chore mindset is precisely what produces the worst outcomes, either no plan or plans that are technically valid, but say nothing about what actually matters. Heirs who learn everything from a document at the worst moment of their lives and conflicts that quietly break families apart. Today\u0027s conversation is about doing it differently, starting with your values, having the conversations, and only then building the structures to fit the documents come last, not first.\n\nNicole Garton 00:01:16 I\u0027m delighted to welcome back one of our favourite guests. Returning listeners will remember Steve Parr from our March episode on disaster-proofing your business and personal finances. Steve is the founder of Parr Business Law in Vancouver, where he practices at the intersection of corporate law and estate planning for entrepreneurs and families across B.C.. He\u0027s a trust and estate practitioner and a certified executor, advisor and an entrepreneur himself, having built and sold a company before he founded his law firm. He\u0027s also and why this is back today, one of the people thinking hardest about the experience of estate planning, how it feels and how to make it meaningful rather than merely legal. Steve, welcome back. It\u0027s great to have you here again. So, Steve, you\u0027re one of our favorite guests, a podcast regular. Thank you for coming back and chatting with us.\n\nSteve Parr 00:02:07 Absolutely. Thank you for having me back, Nicole.\n\nNicole Garton 00:02:09 You\u0027ve got a really busy firm. You do a ton of estate planning, and something that we\u0027ve talked about is rather than it being sort of a technical chore or like one of those annoying adult checklists, can we reframe estate planning around it being more of a values based exercise? And do you want to talk to me about what your thoughts are about that and why we tend to get better outcomes?\n\nSteve Parr 00:02:35 Yeah, yeah, for sure.\n\nSteve Parr 00:02:36 Before I became a lawyer, I was thinking about, “should I be a therapist or a lawyer?” And I\u0027m glad that I chose law. I think it\u0027s amazing and incredibly intellectually interesting, but I always wanted to have more of that soft skill approach and relationship with my clients. And estate planning, I think, is one of perhaps the best areas to have the opportunity to create that kind of connection with your clients. And that goes to it also requires the lawyer to shift their approach a little bit, though, when they\u0027re having those conversations, because the lawyer\u0027s approach is typically going to be very technical, very much like, okay, here\u0027s what we can do, what we can\u0027t do. Here are the legal risks, etc. but there\u0027s a real opportunity there to have deeper, more philosophical, open ended, broad questions about who are you? What have you built? What does your family mean to you? What relationships are strong? Which ones are weak? Which ones need attention? How do you think that your values and your assets are going to have an impact on the next generation? What would be the best way to craft that? So.\n\nSteve Parr 00:03:42 Absolutely. I think it\u0027s not only an opportunity to have more satisfaction as a lawyer, but it\u0027s a tremendous opportunity to have an impact on people\u0027s lives, because I think estate planning is actually one of the most consequential things that you can do. And so to treat it like a transaction is really a big disservice to the clients and a big missed opportunity for them as 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It was kind of weird. But now, because they\u0027ve done it a couple of years, it\u0027s actually something that everybody kind of everybody looks forward to. And can you imagine, like the sense of relief and ease that this creates inside of that family system? Like it\u0027s really a beautiful example. Yeah.\n\nNicole Garton 00:13:31 So because we work in this area, we see what works and doesn\u0027t work. And, you know, do you have to tell your kids every penny or, you know, the intricate nitty gritty of your net worth? You don\u0027t necessarily have to do that. But certainly clarifying fundamental values, goals, generally speaking, what your plan is. Certainly if anything\u0027s going to be a surprise, definitely getting in front of that. It\u0027s a terrible idea for people, if something\u0027s going to surprise your family, that it’s not a good idea, that they find out if you\u0027re incapable or not living.\n\nNicole Garton 00:14:09 It\u0027s way better, that proactive conversation. And, you know, different families require different conversations. Like if you\u0027re in a first marriage with two able bodied adult kids and you\u0027re, you know, leaving everything 50/50, I don\u0027t know that you have to have huge proactive conversations, but if you\u0027re in a blended family, if there is going to be an unequal distribution, if there\u0027s conflict or an estrangement, you know, if there are a lot of farm and fishing families, there\u0027s one kid working on the farm or on the boat that is a disproportionate value to other state assets and really getting in front of that and what the goals and expectations are like. It depends, how involved the conversations need to be. But because of what I\u0027ve seen in practice, where surprises are terrible and, you know, in an absence of information, that can breed mistrust and worry, which can precipitate conflict, delay and expense. We have a blended family and we\u0027re not doing anything very unusual. We\u0027re leaving everything to each other, last to pass away, equally to our respective kids.\n\nNicole Garton 00:15:21 But we had a really proactive conversation with the kids saying, this is what we\u0027re doing and this is why, and we\u0027re organized and this is what we\u0027re doing to make sure it\u0027s fair. And I think in the absence of having that conversation, I think they might have wondered.\n\nSteve Parr 00:15:35 Yeah.\n\nNicole Garton 00:15:36 And maybe had a concern. And so we, you know, are we telling them what our net worth is? No, we\u0027re not doing that. Are we making promises that they\u0027re going to get certain amounts of money. No, we\u0027re not doing that. But we\u0027re saying, look, “We\u0027ve thought about this carefully. This is how we\u0027re going to distribute the assets. This is who\u0027s going to be in charge. And we\u0027ve made sure that there\u0027s not going to be unexpected–we can\u0027t prevent it–but we\u0027ve done what we can to prevent problems.” And I think there\u0027s an enormous amount of relief. And so you can decide as a family, like how much you want to share or not share.\n\nSteve Parr 00:16:11 Yeah. And I think it really is different for every family and how families approach.\n\nSteve Parr 00:16:18 It\u0027s a very personal thing, you know, and I don\u0027t I wouldn\u0027t want to be–and I\u0027m sure you wouldn\u0027t either–to prescribe to any family how they should have these conversations. They know their family\u0027s best, but we are advisors and we have insights that are drawn from working with hundreds, thousands of clients and family systems that I think are unique and are valuable. So we can offer those kinds of questions and some prompts and you know the clients can do what they will with that. And I\u0027m so curious to hear a little bit more about how was that received by–if you\u0027re comfortable sharing–by your kids and by your partner\u0027s kids.\n\nNicole Garton 00:16:58 So I perceive that it was positive. We certainly haven\u0027t had pushback. Yeah, yeah. But you know, it\u0027s funny. So we\u0027ve I have two children from my first marriage. My husband has three children from his first marriage. So we have five together. And so we\u0027re under 65. 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="vf0DZpvVMs7MCXjOsZxzRw">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="vf0DZpvVMs7MCXjOsZxzRw">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":17246,"s":"\nNicole Garton 00:17:23 Yeah. So what we said to the kids is we\u0027re leaving everything to each other. On the last pass away, everything\u0027s going equal five ways. And not everybody likes these, but we have what\u0027s called a mutual will agreement. So what that means is that if one of us is hit by the proverbial bus next week, and the other one lives 25 years. Whether this is good or bad, but the survivor is actually not allowed to change their will. So they could subsequently remarry. Things could happen, but we decided that we are going to contractually lock down the fact that we were going to leave at five ways to make sure that the kids were protected and to prevent there being issues. And so, I mean, there could be other issues with the mutual agreement, but that\u0027s a decision we made. And I remember one of my stepdaughters said, so she\u0027s like, so if you change your will, I can sue you. And I said, well, I\u0027d be dead.\n\nNicole Garton 00:18:16 But yeah, you could sue the estate. Right? And I think that helped to relieve potential concern. Does that make sense? And did we bring equal wealth into the marriage? Are we exact equal owners? No. But are we going to receive equal inheritances from our families? No, but we made a values decision, in that we decided that we wanted everybody to be treated the same because we value them all and love them all equally, and that we were going to treat them as our mutual children, whether they were biological or not. So that was a values decision that we consciously made and that we\u0027ve actioned. And I think the mistake sometimes people make is that they go into a lawyer\u0027s office and they are deferring to the professional, but they become form filler-outers. Yeah. Whereas I think if you get really clear in advance, you know what is. We\u0027ve worked really hard. This is our family situation. What does success look like for us as a family? What really matters to us as a family.\n\nNicole Garton 00:19:22 And we had clarity on that piece. And so when we did the planning, the planning was faster and cleaner because we were able to make better decisions because we knew in advance. And I think that is something you and I have talked about. I\u0027ve got a book coming out shortly called The Peace of Mind Estate Planning System, and it\u0027s meant for middle class Canadians like, you know, all of us hard working, everyday people. So it\u0027s not meant for ultra wealthy people, and it\u0027s meant to be a sequence. And so it\u0027s like, educate yourself, organize your assets, create the binder, the list of all the information. But the third stage is reflect, which is to sit down and really think, “what are our values like? What\u0027s our unique story? What a success look like for us? What do we envision for the future? What kind of legacy do we really want to leave?” Yeah, and you know, it doesn\u0027t have to be like you\u0027re doing Kumbaya on a three day retreat.\n\nNicole Garton 00:20:20 Like it\u0027s it just means maybe you\u0027re just sitting at a kitchen table and having a conversation for an hour with your spouse, like, but just really getting on the same page about what really matters to you. And then you hire the professionals. But through that piece, then you know who the professionals are going to help you. And the decision making is a lot more clear. but what\u0027s your experience with people and helping them make the right decisions for their families?\n\nSteve Parr 00:20:46 Yeah, most of my clients have not done that kind of contemplation. Some have for sure, but it\u0027s rare that they come to the table equipped with that kind of self-knowledge and understanding of what makes sense for them. You\u0027re right that, you know, two adults with two children who are able bodied and first marriage, not a blended situation. Yeah. Naturally, it\u0027s a little bit more simple and streamlined, and it\u0027s fairly predictable what they\u0027re going to want and how they\u0027re going to want things to go.\n\nNicole Garton 00:21:18 Usually, as long as they don\u0027t hate each other.\n\nSteve Parr 00:21:20 As long as they don\u0027t hate each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if they\u0027re minor children then yeah, hopefully it\u0027s pretty clear. But yeah, when it\u0027s a blended situation, you are very much presented, because there\u0027s so many ways to do family you know, like an, a blended family is exactly that. It\u0027s you know, you can make very deliberate, concrete choices about what you want, the shape of your family, both there in your lifetime, obviously, and then after you pass to look like. And that has very long lasting consequences. 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="vf0DZpvVMs7MCXjOsZxzRw">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="vf0DZpvVMs7MCXjOsZxzRw">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":26529,"s":"\nNicole Garton 00:26:47 So somebody wants to hire a lawyer to help them. How do they identify who is going to be a good fit for their family and someone that they\u0027re going to feel comfortable with? Certainly, if they\u0027re going to be talking about, as you say, more of the soft things, like their values and goals and things, how do people get in front of the right person?\n\nSteve Parr 00:27:06 Yeah, we work in a very referral-heavy environment, and I think that\u0027s for good reason.\n\nSteve Parr 00:27:11 You want to have hopefully you already have somebody in your life, whether it\u0027s a family friend, maybe if you\u0027re in a network of business owners asking them, maybe you work with an existing financial advisor or an accountant or another lawyer, you can ask them. And if you provided that, you have a great relationship with them, their reputation depends upon the quality of the referrals that they make. Most professionals worth their salt understand this. And so they\u0027re going to point you towards somebody who will take care of you. That\u0027s at least that\u0027s the hope. Referrals are a whole big topic of conversation. There are good referrals and there are poorly-handed-off referrals. Ideally, when somebody is making one, they\u0027re going to call that person and say, “hey, are you available? Is this the kind of file that you want to take on, etc..” So hopefully it\u0027s a good referral that\u0027s made. If you don\u0027t know anybody, then yeah, there may be a bit of a process of shopping around and picking up the phone, making some appointments, and you\u0027ll probably learn pretty quickly, perhaps even without meeting the lawyer in question who\u0027s going to be a good fit for you.\n\nSteve Parr 00:28:19 Because any lawyer who\u0027s doing estate planning, who is designing a process for their clients that they feel welcome, not intimidated, etc., they\u0027re going to have put some thought to that in terms of how their staff Greet new prospects, what the process is like to collect all that information. We were talking about what the whole journey is like, and if that feels good and comfortable, then that\u0027s a good sign. Yeah.\n\nNicole Garton 00:28:45 So let\u0027s get into nitty gritty because like, lawyers are funny, they\u0027re so reticent to talk about price. Like, you know, here\u0027s what people are really thinking. Like how much is this going to cost me? Yeah. And how long is this going to take? Like, so what is the range? Like, so say it\u0027s a couple and, you know, somebody\u0027s got a condo and a small roof and one child on one end of the continuum. Maybe there\u0027s a blended family or a disabled child. Like, what\u0027s the expected range that people can expect to pay? Obviously it\u0027s a range.\n\nNicole Garton 00:29:19 And how long is this process going to take from start to finish?\n\nSteve Parr 00:29:22 Sure, sure. The range that I always quote my clients is somewhere between $3,000 and $10,000, and that\u0027s a pretty big range. Obviously, the more complex the file is, the more likely it is going to be towards the top end of that range. But yeah, many of my clients do come in and they very much land towards the bottom end of that range because they have a very straightforward set of wishes, and we\u0027re able to put together a plan that makes sense for them in a fairly economical and efficacious fashion. So it\u0027s not necessarily something that\u0027s going to break the bank. You know, it\u0027s given that this is an expense that is literally the most important contract that you\u0027ll ever enter into, into your lifetime. And it\u0027s not something that you need to necessarily do every year, although it is something that should be updated. And and that\u0027s something that we bake into how we approach things as well. We\u0027ll offer discounts for future updates, like we want to make that process easy.\n\nSteve Parr 00:30:19 We want people to feel like, okay, I\u0027ve I\u0027ve not just done done these docs once and now they\u0027re sitting on a shelf, but rather I\u0027ve begun a conversation with a practitioner with their firm, and we\u0027ll be able to continue to have this conversation in the years to come as things change in terms of timeline. Faster than you think? Yeah. 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And unfortunately, in an absence of information and delay and confusion, that\u0027s a breeding ground for conflict. And so and maybe that\u0027s why in my own family, we decided to, to be so proactive and transparent with our kids because unfortunately, I have a first a front row seat of what happens when it doesn\u0027t go well. And so you gave a good pitch. And the pitch that I would say to people is, you know, you\u0027ve worked so hard your whole life. You\u0027ve, you know, you\u0027ve built a career, you\u0027ve maybe had kids, you\u0027ve like, contributed to the community, you\u0027ve maybe been involved in arts like, but a whole legacy of what you\u0027ve left. And don\u0027t let that final word be one of stress and delay and and conflict. And it\u0027s you know, people will say, you know, it\u0027s the half of Canadians that haven\u0027t done it. And it\u0027s like, you know, it\u0027s so stressful. I don\u0027t know where to start. I don\u0027t have a few thousand bucks right now in my jeans.\n\nNicole Garton 00:36:41 I\u0027m just going to defer this and worry about it later. The problem is, every day that you wake up and you\u0027re building something, you\u0027re potentially not to be dramatic, but potentially throwing it away by not dealing with this, right. So I think if that\u0027s the pitch and it doesn\u0027t have to be painful, it doesn\u0027t have to be outrageously expensive, it doesn\u0027t have to take forever. But even a small amount of good planning can save a world of trouble.\n\nSteve Parr 00:37:06 Yeah. And brass tacks. Like, we offer payment plans. Like we have abilities to make this not as painful as it needs to be in that short term basis. Like, there are ways to do it. And I don\u0027t know if most, but some lawyers will be able to offer that as well. So there are options out there if that\u0027s a primary barrier. And you\u0027re absolutely right. You don\u0027t get another word. You know, this is the last word. And it is what your family is going to remember and. Yeah. You and I have both come across so many client family situations where that\u0027s what they\u0027re talking about, when they\u0027re talking about their mom and dad or uncle or whomever, who who passed away and didn\u0027t leave things clean.\n\nNicole Garton 00:37:48 So, Steve, what does legacy mean for you? You\u0027re working hard. You\u0027re building a business. You work with families all the time. What does what does that mean for you?\n\nSteve Parr 00:37:57 I mean, that\u0027s an ever evolving question. Of course, as you know, I\u0027m, you know, early 40s and building my business and having a great time doing it and developing my network and my relationships. And I have a family that I was born with, but I haven\u0027t I don\u0027t have a family that I\u0027ve created yet. So, yeah, I mean, check in with me in the years to come, I guess. But like, right now, what it means is I\u0027m honoring what I\u0027ve created. I\u0027m honoring the relationships that I have right now, and I have a great many of them, and I want everybody that I\u0027ve come across that I\u0027ve invested so much time and energy into to feel like they\u0027re taken care of. And, you know, it comes down to how I use my money and use that time and what type of gifts that I\u0027m leaving behind for for my parents, for siblings, for my nephews.\n\nSteve Parr 00:38:53 That\u0027s what I think about. And I think about like, how can I create my life so that the impact that I have is going to be felt, not because I want to be felt as like some sort of immortal presence? Nobody gets that. And I don\u0027t think it\u0027s really all that healthy to aspire towards that. But I do think it\u0027s important to recognize that we have an impact here. You know, we all come here. We\u0027re all here for a short time. But there is there\u0027s an opportunity here to to leave this place a little bit better.\n\nNicole Garton 00:39:24 And I feel the same way. So, you know, I have a family where unfortunately, estates weren\u0027t always as organized as they could have been. And I\u0027ve witnessed firsthand, unfortunately, wealth loss and conflict and estrangement. And I think the experience of that is what can I do better? So how can I help other families plan? 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There\u0027s the wealth that we leave in our communities. It\u0027s intellectual wealth. It can be philanthropic wealth. You can think about it holistically. It\u0027s not just numbers on a balance sheet. There\u0027s a lot more that we contribute as humans and that we can thoughtfully and meaningfully, you know, leave behind.\n\nSteve Parr 00:40:22 Yeah. And it\u0027s something that on a very practical level is service providers we need to be thinking about, you know, that we are thinking about like, should something happen to me, there are people that would step into place to take care of my clients. And I\u0027ve gone through the steps to ensure that that exists and that there\u0027s there are some very practical things that should be in place. And I think for for any service provider, for anybody who has a business, because you want to be you\u0027ve spent so much time creating those relationships with your employees and with your clients and customers, and they deserve to feel like they would be taken care of, even if that means they have somebody just to communicate with should something happen.\n\nSteve Parr 00:41:01 So yeah.\n\nNicole Garton 00:41:03 And if it\u0027s messy, you know, there are trust companies that can there are clean it up. But it\u0027s not it\u0027s definitely not the first choice.\n\nSteve Parr 00:41:11 You know for sure. And I think that but I think in many instances it probably should be the first choice to have a choice like, well, maybe I know you don\u0027t want to come in after the fact and court appointed. Like that\u0027s a mess. But like, you know, I do think it actually is a very sound choice in many circumstances to appoint a trust company to support the distribution of assets inside of a will or inside of a trust, especially when the situation is complex. If there are international tax issues, if there is a business involved and there\u0027s nobody inside of the family who would be a suitable successor, like, yeah, absolutely. Have a trust company in there. They can manage the sale. They can manage the an orderly wind up of the business that doesn\u0027t degrade what the value of the business is they can deal with.\n\nSteve Parr 00:41:55 Like if there is no suitable executor who lives inside of Canada, then you have a big tax issue. And so that\u0027s a very good use case for appointing a local Canadian trust company like heritage to to be able to step in.\n\nNicole Garton 00:42:08 So I guess for people who are wondering about this, I\u0027d say maybe 5 to 10% of people might be a candidate for professional executor, professional trustee, or professional power of attorney. So those people might be maybe you never had children and you want a secure company that\u0027s not mortal. That will be there. Maybe you have a blended family and you want a neutral person. Maybe you\u0027ve got a disabled beneficiary and you want to have long term continuity for somebody to manage funds for that person. Or like you mentioned, maybe there is complexity in that. There might be a business or things, and you don\u0027t want to burden your family members or friends with something that is going to be like complicated or time consuming. 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And yeah, it sounds like you have a book coming out that is intended to do exactly that.\n\nSteve Parr 00:43:57 So yeah, whether it\u0027s doing that or finding another resource that speaks to them, there are people and there are books and podcasts like this one that I think are going to help people begin to have these conversations. And I think the best step is just the first step. Take any kind of step, whether it\u0027s just spending five minutes, journaling, Taking 20 minutes to set aside with your partner and have a discussion. Talk about these things and say, hey, like, we\u0027re not going to necessarily resolve all of this, but let\u0027s at least start to put these items out on the table so that we know that what we\u0027re dealing with and we we can start to turn our minds to it rather than just avoiding the conversation. 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If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who may benefit from it and join us next time for another practical conversation about estate planning. Estate administration and legacy in Canada. \n\nThis podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial, or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters. If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of choice. Whether you\u0027re planning your own estate or you\u0027re acting as executor for somebody else\u0027s heritage, trust can help partner with Heritage Trust to protect your family, your assets, and your legacy. 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