Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / Bomani Jones & Howard Bryant on The Untold Stories of Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson | 01.20

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Bomani Jones & Howard Bryant on The Untold Stories of Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson | 01.20 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A wave original.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Bowani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: a hater. It is Time Machine Tuesday. Not only is
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Howard Bryant joining us, Howard Bryant is joining us because
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  Speaker 1: he has got a brand new book. that is in
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  Speaker 1: stores called Kings and Pawns. If you're watching on YouTube,
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  Speaker 1: you can see the cover right here, and you will
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  Speaker 1: see a picture of Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson.
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  Speaker 2: My man, how are you?
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  Speaker 3: I'm good. How are you doing?
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: All right.
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  Speaker 2: I'm great.
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  Speaker 1: I just got through reading the book. There's so many
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: different directions that we can go in on this one,
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  Speaker 1: because this is one of those books that was an
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  Speaker 1: incredible read that kind of makes you feel bad about everybody,
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  Speaker 1: but at the same time, an incredible read, and I
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  Speaker 1: think as a lot of people may surmise, and a
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  Speaker 1: lot may not because we're talking about two figures that
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  Speaker 1: I think are kind of one who is almost faded completely,
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  Speaker 1: but one who is fading from a certain omnipresence in
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  Speaker 1: American society. But the connection with Jackie Robinson and Paul
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  Speaker 1: Robeson that those familiar with both will have is Jackie
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  Speaker 1: Robinson appearing before the House Un-American Activities Committee in 1949
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  Speaker 1: in large part.
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  Speaker 2: To talk about Paul Robeson.
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  Speaker 1: And what you mentioned in the book about this book
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  Speaker 1: coming together, I thought was interesting, was this is such
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  Speaker 1: a big moment, but in the way that you put it,
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  Speaker 1: we haven't had a lot about how it came to
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  Speaker 1: happen in the first place.
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  Speaker 3: No, that's right. And also what's crazy to me about it,
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  Speaker 3: and just sort of working on these different ideas, is
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  Speaker 3: to your earlier point, people don't know this story. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: these guys are giants. I mean, I'm talking about black people.
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  Speaker 3: I'm talking about when I would talk to other black
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  Speaker 3: people about this moment. A lot of people would, one,
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  Speaker 3: didn't know what happened, didn't know that Jackie Robinson testified
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  Speaker 3: against Robeson, and two, had no idea who Robeson was.
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  Speaker 3: And that was sort of chilling to me just from
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  Speaker 3: a literacy standpoint and from a history standpoint. Like, do
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  Speaker 3: we know who we are? And I think that to me,
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  Speaker 3: what I was really trying to get at in working
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  Speaker 3: on this was these different, this continuum. this continuum of
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  Speaker 3: what Black people feel they need to do to prove,
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  Speaker 3: what do we need to do to prove our worth?
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  Speaker 3: And Jackie Robinson felt in the middle of the second
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  Speaker 3: Red Scare, in the middle of the U.S. versus the
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  Speaker 3: Soviet Union, in the middle of questioning patriotism and questioning Americanism,
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  Speaker 3: that on behalf of Black people, he had to speak up.
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  Speaker 3: against Robeson, who had given a speech in Paris where
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  Speaker 3: he had been quoted by the Associated Press of saying,
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  Speaker 3: it is unthinkable that black people would fight against the
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  Speaker 3: Soviet Union in the event of a war. And so
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  Speaker 3: for Jackie to do that, the reasons to me were
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  Speaker 3: just really worth exploring.
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  Speaker 1: So before we get to the particulars of the book,
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  Speaker 1: and I think you made a very important point about
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  Speaker 1: people not necessarily knowing who Paul Robeson was. Now, I
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  Speaker 1: say very often that I believe that Martin Luther King
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  Speaker 1: was probably the finest man that this country has produced.
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  Speaker 2: Paul Robeson is probably the baddest motherfucker that has walked around.
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  Speaker 1: The the the the grounds the soil of the united
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  Speaker 1: states and as we'll get to black.
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  Speaker 3: White or whatever yeah yeah yeah.
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  Speaker 1: This is a different situation what was the way he's
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  Speaker 1: over the tallest tree in the forest that's right is
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  Speaker 1: the reference of reference for him and so for people
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  Speaker 1: who do not know who paul robeson was paul robeson
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  Speaker 1: first came into the american consciousness as of his time
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  Speaker 1: the best college football player of his era. He later
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  Speaker 1: goes to Columbia Law School. He becomes a lawyer. He
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  Speaker 1: is the most prominent singer, performer in this country, a
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  Speaker 1: bass baritone singer known all around the world. And also just,
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  Speaker 1: he's that dude, man. But he also had strong far
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  Speaker 1: left pro-labor politics that defined him as much as anything else.
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  Speaker 1: There is a great documentary by Sinclair Bourne Paul Robeson
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  Speaker 1: that I remember seeing, I guess now, about 25 years ago.
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  Speaker 1: And I just sat up and watched this and I
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  Speaker 1: was like, this is the most incredible man I can
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  Speaker 1: think of. And he's one of these cats where I
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: think about dudes, Jackie Robinson is somebody that we talk
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  Speaker 1: about in these contexts and it gets a little frustrating
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  Speaker 1: when white people start referring to a black person's dignity
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  Speaker 1: up front because.
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  Speaker 2: It is whiteness in general.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that requires that dignity to be shown at all times.
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  Speaker 2: However, this is the most dignified man I've ever seen.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And on top of that, it's the thing about Robeson
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  Speaker 3: is you just need two or three or four pages
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  Speaker 3: to talk about everything he was. So not only the
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  Speaker 3: bass baritone, not only the concert singer, not only the
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  Speaker 3: singing in multiple languages, not only the Columbia educated lawyer,
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  Speaker 3: but also one of the greatest college football players of
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  Speaker 3: all time. And also he played in the NFL. He
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  Speaker 3: played in the first two years in the National Football League.
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  Speaker 3: And so you're talking about somebody who checks every box
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  Speaker 3: in terms of just the unbelievable amount of talent. We
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  Speaker 3: talk about Jackie Robinson integrating the major leagues in 1947. Well,
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  Speaker 3: Paul Robeson integrated Broadway in 1943 with Othello. And to
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  Speaker 3: this day, it's still the record for most consecutive performances
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  Speaker 3: of a Shakespeare play on Broadway, 296 performances. And so
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  Speaker 3: Robeson was everything. And That is the thing about this
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  Speaker 3: book that I really loved was rediscovering him and recognizing
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  Speaker 3: just how big a figure he was. Just, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: you could say that maybe Joe Louis, you could say
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  Speaker 3: that Jesse Owens or Jackie Robinson were the most famous
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  Speaker 3: Black people in the United States. Paul Robeson was the
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  Speaker 3: most famous Black American in the world, right? I mean,
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  Speaker 3: let's just, when we ask that question, when we have
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  Speaker 3: done it of like, who is the most famous Black
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  Speaker 3: American in the world? We have talked about maybe Muhammad Ali.
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  Speaker 3: We've talked about Michael Jordan. He's in that category. Can
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  Speaker 3: you imagine generations of people not knowing who Michael Jordan
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  Speaker 3: was or not knowing who Muhammad Ali was? That's what
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  Speaker 3: happened to Paul Robeson.
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  Speaker 2: And big.
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  Speaker 1: He was why we say he's the tallest tree in
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  Speaker 1: the forest. That was also literal, too.
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  Speaker 3: 6'3, 250.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, back then.
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  Speaker 3: Back then.
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  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 1: Like, my mother's father was about that size and was, like,
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  Speaker 1: the biggest dude that anybody knew at the time. So, like,
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  Speaker 1: when we talk about him being the best college football player,
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  Speaker 1: he's not the, like, this isn't Red Grains where it's like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: look at him run the ball.
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  Speaker 2: No, man.
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  Speaker 1: This was a massive giant of a man with the
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  Speaker 1: deepest voice that you had with not an ounce of
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  Speaker 1: back down in his soul voice. not requesting your affection,
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  Speaker 1: but demanding your respect.
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  Speaker 3: That's right. And on top of that, it's a reminder
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  Speaker 3: that time is not, it's time is a little more
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  Speaker 3: flexible than we think. His father was born a slave.
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  Speaker 4: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: His father was born into slavery, right? This man died
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  Speaker 3: in 1976. His father was born into slavery. So we
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  Speaker 3: talk about these things being so long ago. They're not
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  Speaker 3: that long ago. That continuum is much shorter than people think.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 1: And I think something in the book, does a very
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  Speaker 1: good job of, and that I had not thought that
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  Speaker 1: much about truly is the way I think that we
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: think about decades and eras of the 20th century is
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  Speaker 1: not really via the context of like geopolitical history, but it's,
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  Speaker 1: in the context of pop culture, we.
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  Speaker 2: Think of the roaring 20s, right?
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  Speaker 1: We think of the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s,
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  Speaker 1: and distinctly because of these pieces of culture. Like, we
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  Speaker 1: think of World War I and World War II, but
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  Speaker 1: we don't talk about the teens and the 40s or
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  Speaker 1: even the 30s. We talk about the Great Depression, but
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  Speaker 1: we don't talk about those eras in that same way.
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  Speaker 1: And so for me, what this book really starts talking
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  Speaker 1: about is a time period that is very, very important,
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  Speaker 1: which is really the 40s, the 30s to a degree,
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  Speaker 1: but the 40s also, because all of this is kind
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  Speaker 1: of the cresting of the reemergence of a certain measure
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  Speaker 1: of American segregation and a measure of American racism that
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  Speaker 1: wasn't the case. I talk to Ta-Nehisi Coates about this
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  Speaker 1: all the time, Reconstruction, the most under-discussed and important period
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  Speaker 1: in American history. But the terror of the second red
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  Speaker 1: scare of the 1940s is something that we never really
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  Speaker 1: talk that much about generally, but also specifically out as
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  Speaker 1: it affected black people and as it affected black politics.
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  Speaker 2: And that to me of this book is really the
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  Speaker 2: backdrop of it, which.
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  Speaker 1: Is black people trying to get free, trying to figure
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  Speaker 1: out exactly how to get free and how so much
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  Speaker 1: of black America, including Jackie Robinson, and especially the NAACP,
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  Speaker 1: made an enemy of Paul Robeson at the behest of
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  Speaker 1: the state because the state legitimately saw Robeson as the
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  Speaker 1: most dangerous man in America.
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  Speaker 3: That's right. And on top of that, you think about it,
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  Speaker 3: that's what I mean about the continuum of the strategy.
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  Speaker 3: So World War I, 19, American involvement, 1917, 1918, and
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  Speaker 3: you have Black people volunteering to fight. With the expectation
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  Speaker 3: that when we come home, we'll be treated as equals
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  Speaker 3: because we fought for the country as well. But when
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  Speaker 3: we come home, it's one of the most violent periods
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  Speaker 3: of American history toward black people. Tulsa, East St. Louis,
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  Speaker 3: the number of race riots all across the country during
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  Speaker 3: that period, which, by the way, coincides with the first
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  Speaker 3: Red Scare, with the Bolshevik Revolution, this idea that Black
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  Speaker 3: people are coming for your jobs. And so you have
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  Speaker 3: this period. And during that period, you're the Black establishment giants, A.
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  Speaker 3: Philip Randolph, W.E.B. Du Bois, they take the attitude that
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  Speaker 3: we need to suppress our civil rights demands in exchange
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  Speaker 3: for supporting the country. It's a time of war. We'll
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: take our personal needs aside and we'll put those on
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  Speaker 3: the side and then we'll fight for the country. World
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  Speaker 3: War II comes around and after experiencing all of that violence,
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  Speaker 3: The new strategy is, no, we're not going to do that.
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  Speaker 3: We're going to fight for both. We'll fight for the country.
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  Speaker 3: We'll enlist. We'll volunteer. But we also want our civil rights.
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  Speaker 3: And so the response to that period was the same.
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  Speaker 3: When black soldiers came back, nothing but violence for those
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  Speaker 3: soldiers coming home. And whether you're talking about Detroit, they
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  Speaker 3: lynched in their uniforms, lynched in uniform. And that's the thing.
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  Speaker 3: And that's what I found so interesting about this project.
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  Speaker 3: was so many of our readers today, so many people
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  Speaker 3: today are thinking about post 9-11 America. Thank you for
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  Speaker 3: your service. You wear the uniform. You get the special discounts.
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  Speaker 3: People look at you with reverence. If you had a
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  Speaker 3: uniform on in the 1940s as a black man, you
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  Speaker 3: were a target. You were a target of violence. You
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  Speaker 3: wore that uniform at your own peril. And so The
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  Speaker 3: battle taking place here, moving in after the post-war, after
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  Speaker 3: World War II ends, is, okay, what do we have
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  Speaker 3: to do now to prove that we're American? We went
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  Speaker 3: and fought twice and came back and were subject to
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  Speaker 3: so much violence both times. Now you've got this new enemy,
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  Speaker 3: the Soviet Union. And now the ask is to prove
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  Speaker 3: that you're American by denouncing anybody who was associated with
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  Speaker 3: or friendly with or allied at some level with progressive
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  Speaker 3: left-wing politics. And the NAACP made a choice. And that
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  Speaker 3: choice was, hey, we've got civil rights in this country.
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  Speaker 3: We can't let anything come in the way of that.
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  Speaker 3: And Robeson, once again, was a giant. He's the guy.
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  Speaker 3: And the NAACP attitude was, you're going to ruin this
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  Speaker 3: for everybody. You can't link us with this. And that
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: has long ranging consequences when it comes to not just
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: civil rights, the coming civil rights movement, but also the
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: conversation of affordability and capitalism and all these other questions
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: that affect black people.
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  Speaker 1: What we're talking about also is in this similar time
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  Speaker 1: period of the beginning of the integration of Major League Baseball,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: which creates, there's an irony to this, and the book
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: points this out, It creates this figure in Jackie Robinson
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  Speaker 1: and a part of Jackie Robinson becoming a major league
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  Speaker 1: baseball player, the integration of baseball, is Paul Robeson meeting
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  Speaker 1: with the owners.
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  Speaker 3: That's right. And Robeson in 1943, December 43, meets with
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  Speaker 3: the owners and to encourage them to open the doors
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  Speaker 3: to black players. Why? Because black people are fighting in
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  Speaker 3: the war. And is there anything more American than baseball?
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  Speaker 3: And what better way to show the world that this
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  Speaker 3: is a democracy as opposed to Nazi Germany than to
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  Speaker 3: have its national pastime open to all people? And the
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  Speaker 3: baseball owners are like, yeah, no.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 1: And keep in your mind, there's some people who are like, hey,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: you know, since it's this war and all the white
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: boys over there fighting, maybe you could use some of
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: the colors to help you out.
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  Speaker 2: And they were like, that's right.
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  Speaker 3: No, we're not going to do that. And what's really
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: fascinating about it was, is that Jackie had been for
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: years considered a pawn of the segregationists for testifying against Robeson. Well,
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: the reason why they had asked Paul Robeson to come
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: to speak to the owners was to actually counter a
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: movement from the black press called the Double V Campaign,
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  Speaker 3: which was victory abroad, victory at home, meaning we'll fight
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: for you over there, but when we come home, we
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: want our rights. And so there had been planned protests
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: of Major League Baseball by the black press. And once
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: baseball got wind that, oh, okay, these protests for civil
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: rights are coming to your front step door, your doorstep,
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: we need to do something. So strategically, they invited Robeson,
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: who was the hottest commodity in America, because a couple
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: months earlier, he had just integrated Broadway with Othello. And
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: so he's the guy. And so in a lot of ways,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: the Major League Baseball owners used Robeson the same way
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: the House and American Activities Committee used Robinson against him.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: Six years later.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I talked to you a lot while
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: you were researching this book, and I didn't fully appreciate
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: that there were these documents that had now been available
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: at the Baseball Hall of Fame. And it sounds like
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: you got your first fingerprints on them because I don't
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: know how much anybody else necessarily knew that they were there.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: But the most interesting thing that you told me as
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: it was going and it was in the book was
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: that the owner's biggest fear of integration was not the
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: integration of the field.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: But I'll let you hit the punchline.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. The question was not whether or not Jackie
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: Robinson was a good player or whether Satchel Paige was
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: a good player. It wasn't the question as to whether
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: or not they could play. It was because they could play.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: And what was the consequence of great Black players was
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: more Black people coming to the stands, coming to the ballpark,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: using their money. And what are the things we always
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: talk about? Oh, well, green trumps everything. No, green does
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: not trump everything. The baseball owners were petrified. that black
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: players would make white fans stay away from the ballpark.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: I don't want to sit next to black people. In fact,
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: there was a report that the owners sent to the commissioner,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Happy Chandler, in 1946, after Jackie Robinson had a great
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: minor league season in Montreal at the International League, saying
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: that he's the existential threat to the business, that the
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: success of this one Negro threatens the financial stability and
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: the financial values of all of our clubs because he
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: attracts black fans.
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  Speaker 1: And even Branch Rickey was afraid. The great integrator of
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Major League Baseball.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Of Major League Baseball was afraid of this. And on
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: top of that, the note in that report, you really
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: read that report, the real feeling here is he has
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: betrayed us in a way that we have never been betrayed.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: That signing Jackie Robinson was one of the greatest betrayals
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: in the history of baseball, according to these owners. And
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: that is the thing. That was another reason that I
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: wanted to do this book, which was we talk about
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: April 15th, 1947, as the great moment that it was,
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: about how it made the fans feel. We talk about
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: the sacrifices that Jackie made. But usually those things are
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: centered on the vitriol that he received from fans in
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: the stands. That's usually where we talk about what Jackie
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: went through and how some of the players were mean
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: to him or whatever. But what we never talk about
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: is the real threat, was the fact that the institution
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: itself did not want him. The owners of the game,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: not only did they not want him, but they were
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: so angry at Branch Rickey for what he had done.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: Baseball had a whole strategy to keep integration from coming.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: They had agreed, the president of the Yankees, Larry McPhail,
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: the owner of the Senators, Clark Griffith. They had agreed
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: that what we'll do is we'll fund the Negro Leagues.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: We'll give you money. We know you guys are underfunded.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: To keep you out of our sport, we'll fund your sport.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: But we're going to keep that line completely separate. And
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: Ricky broke ranks. Ricky went rogue. And they were just irate.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: and wrote letters to each other saying, can you believe
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: that he did this to us? Yeah.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: And I think it's also interesting that I think in
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: a lot of our minds, it's like, okay, well, now
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: that this has happened, let's go.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: It's game on. But it wasn't.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: That's right. And it wasn't. It was not.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: The Cleveland Indians also, ironically, the Indians, they had Larry
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Doby come next. They win the 1948 World Series. Also
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: of note, the last time they won one of those things.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: But you still had teams all the way into the
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: mid to late 50s.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Especially in the American League.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Well, that's what is so interesting about this in terms
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: of what does it take for Black people to be
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: considered American? What does it take to be accepted? What
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: does it take to prove your worth? And so Jackie Robinson,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: at the behest really of Branch Rickey, goes into a
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: realm that he's not comfortable. We look at Jackie as
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: this great political figure. He was not into politics. He
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: was asked to do this. He had no interest in
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: doing this. So he goes and testifies on behalf of baseball.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: Out of a sense of obligation, it's worth noting. A
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: sense of obligation to Ricky. This man put me on.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: This man opened the door for other Black players. He
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: changed history. I have to do this. But I also
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: have to do something else. And Jackie said this in
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: his memoir, which is I didn't want white people to
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: think we weren't patriotic. I felt a sense of obligation there.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: If Robeson had the last word, then maybe they would
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: think worse of us. And so he felt like he
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: needed to do that. And Rachel Robinson also gave an
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: interview where she said, you know, Jack was one of
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: those guys, my country, right or wrong. And you have
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: the same battle today. which is whether or not do
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: we sit this out after Trump 2.0? Do we stay involved?
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: Do we back off? And Jackie's position was, I got
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: a piece of this. This is mine too. You can
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: do whatever you want to me, but I was born here.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: This is mine too. And so that conundrum really is
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: the sort of the center of the book in terms
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: of tactics. Do you stay in? Do you sit it out?
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: And if you do go in, are you actually working
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: on behalf of your people or are you against them
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: in some ways by doing the one thing that we
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: all know we're not supposed to do, which is to
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: be in service of people who aren't interested in our success?
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: And I thought that you did not state this explicitly
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: in these terms, but I think one of the more
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: interesting juxtapositions between Robeson's approach and the approach of the
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: NAACP and the larger aristocracy. And it's important when noting
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: the NAACP that when I'm talking about the NAACP in
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: the 1940s, I am specifically not talking about W.E.B. Du Bois,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: who by then is on a complete other side of
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: the aisle because there is this force that is the
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Communist Party that has popped up. And so this is
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: before communism became a full-on bad word and was like,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: At that time, it was a bad word like hell
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: is a bad word.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: It later became a bad word like you fuck-ass bitch.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: You see what I'm saying? It became a whole nother level.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: It had a whole nother magnitude to it. But as
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: we're talking about this, on one side is the NAACP
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: and Jackie Robinson aligned of that side, believing that if
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: we could get these white folks to love us, then
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: everything will be okay and we'll get what we need. Now,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: it was interesting to think that they thought that such
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: a love was possible, given literally every piece of available evidence.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: But the thought was that if we could demonstrate that
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: we really kind of just like you, we'll be okay.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: On the other side was the tallest tree in the
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: forest demanding that he be respected. Very much a ball
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: player in this sense, right?
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: His.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: the lack of back down.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: And the insistence, the imposition of his will, he believed
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: almost in making this happen. And what you have with
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Robinson and the NAACP as they are doing that is, well,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: a way we can show you that we love you
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: is we can attack Paul Robeson. And a big part
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: of this obviously is when Robinson goes and testifies before
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: the committee and says that black people, well, really ride
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: with that Paul Robeson. Like, That's not really what we're about.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: But the irony of it all is those politics from
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: the NAACP and Jackie Robinson also were straight aligned with
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: the politics of Branch Rickey, anti-communist, general manager of the
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Brooklyn Dodgers. So at once, Jackie is doing the bidding
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: of these black people, but he's really specifically doing the
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: bidding of this white man. Because the black people in
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: this case believe that doing their own bidding require doing
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: that bit of bidding for the capital T, capital W,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: capital M, the white man.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: That's right. And once again, I mean, I feel like Jackie,
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: whenever you go through this and I'm going, okay, well,
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: you have to try to play this as much down
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: the middle as possible because it's a dual biography in
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: some ways. It wasn't a biography of each of those guys.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: It was of this moment in time. But Jackie has
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: never survived this. His reputation has never survived testifying against Robeson.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X went at him for it. He felt in
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: himself that there were Black people who viewed him as
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: a sellout. The Black Panther Party went after him for it.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: He really didn't deserve what he got in some ways
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: because he understood it.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: He was upset.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: In 1949, July 18th, 1949, when he testifies. That's four
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: years after Branch Rickey has signed him.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Four years.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: There were only seven black players in the game. So
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: that was the other piece of this. It was like, okay,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: this April 15th moment, 1947, we talk about this being
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: the greatest moment in baseball history, et cetera, integration. But
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: the owners were very much aligned with that report they
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: had made. They did not follow. There were seven black
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: players on opening day in 1949. And five of them
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: played for the Indians and the Dodgers. You had Jackie, Newcomb, Campanella,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: Satchel Paige, and Larry Doby.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: Right? And so the owners are actually doing exactly what
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: they had said previously. We are not going to sign
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: these players. And yet when Jackie goes out there to testify,
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: the name of those hearings in front of HUAC, the
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: House Un-American Activities Committee, was.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: It really was the loyalty of black people, communist infiltration
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: of minority groups, but it really was a loyalty test
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: of African-Americans. And here's Jackie in the middle of it going,
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: you haven't integrated your own sport. I've been here four
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: years and there's only six other guys here with me.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: And to your point, when Jackie retired at the end
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: of the 56 season, the Tigers, the Phillies and the
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: Red Sox still hadn't integrated. So that's the piece of
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: this that's really interesting about what you feel like you
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: have to do and how at the end of this,
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: you've got these two guys who were placed in opposition
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: to each other, essentially ending up in the same place
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: of disillusionment. Jackie Robinson did everything this country asked him
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: to do, just as Paul Robeson did everything this country
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: asked him to do. And the reason why you talk
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: about Robeson not having any back down was because Robeson
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: had recognized when he was living in Princeton, when he
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: was growing up at a young age from his father,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: he had found that the white people were even more
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: angry at him when he succeeded. When he was in
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: high school in Somerville, when he won all those contests
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: for diction and oration and the debate team and in sports,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: The more he succeeded, the more vitriol he received, the
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: more anger, the more resentment he felt from people around him,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: even in service of them. And that really hardened his
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: politics and hardened his personal politics. These people do not
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: want you to compete with them, ever, even in service
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: of them. And the way that he had placed it was,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: the way he put it, I use this often, is,
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: They wanted benevolence, but not equality. I mean, they'll give
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: you some money for charity and they'll help you out
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: with your underserved and underprivileged stuff and they'll throw some
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: money your way, but not equals.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Coming up next, I want to talk specifically about Jackie
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Robinson in this because I found in reading the book,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: and you and I, again, we've talked about this for
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: a couple of years as you were working on it, like,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: so how exactly do I feel about him after knowing
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: what we know? And it's a complex thing, and we'll
• 27:46
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  Speaker 3: All right.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: We are back with Howard Bryant.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: The book is Kings and Pawns available in books in
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: bookstores right now. I want to read this one part, though,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: by the way, we didn't get to this earlier, but
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: just the lengths that people will go to lie to themselves. OK,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: so this is in advance of the 1947 season where
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: now it's real. Jackie Robinson, the idea of him becoming
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: a major league baseball player. He's been in Montreal for
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: the time period and he lit Montreal on fire. the
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: knots that people will tie themselves into. This is a
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: columnist from Buffalo named Cy Kritzer. And this was his
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: explanation of why Jackie Robinson, even though he lit up
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: the international league, was not going to be a good
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: major league player. There are many around the International League
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: who still believe, after watching the Negro star do everything
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: expected of a future major leaguer, that he was playing
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: over his head in 1946, that his crusading zeal to
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: pave the way for other members of his race actually
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: increased his ability. In time, like an old-fashioned alarm clock,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: such things as inspiration, zeal, or ardor all run down.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Robinson won't make the major leagues this coming season was
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: a quote that he had from another manager.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: The idea was he couldn't actually be good. He just
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: got good to do it for the crew.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: That was in January, 1947 in the sporting news, a
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: sort of point counterpoint column. And I was reading that going,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: my goodness.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: How'd they get past an editor?
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: Because the editor was in on it too. The editor
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: was like, yeah, that makes sense. That tracks, that tracks.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: But once again, the point of it all is, in
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: the construction, that chapter, at the beginning, I had decided
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: to have chapter titles. And then at the end, I
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: took them out because it all looked a little cluttered.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: And so that chapter was originally titled The Illusion of Merit.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: And it was all about how merit was absolutely the
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: last thing that you worried about when it came to
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: Jackie Robinson, right? If there's one thing that we were
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: certain of, it was he could play. He could play.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Even his opponents knew he could play. And Ricky knew
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: he could play. And yet the entire summer of 1946,
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: and in the spring, in the winter, in the spring
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: of 47, before Ricky had finally officially called him up,
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: was this debate as to whether or not Jackie Robinson
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: could make the grade. When what they were really talking
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: about and didn't have the courage to talk about was
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: whether or not the game wanted him, whether or not
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: white players would play with him, whether or not white fans,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: and even the fans, they came to see him. He
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: was box office. So like the white fans that they
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: said wouldn't come, they were actually coming to the ballpark anyway.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: But it just brings it back to the fact that
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: The game did not want him. And I think that
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: that was one of the motivations for me writing this
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: book was this mythology that April 15th, 1947 changed attitudes.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: It changed the world. It changed how we viewed what
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: was possible from black people being in the background to
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: black people in the foreground. It's not true. It's not true.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: People went out of their way to not play this man.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: And what I wanted to concentrate on wasn't the mythology
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: of it, was what is this doing to Jackie on
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: a day-to-day basis? Like, what is actually happening to him?
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: I know he makes the fans feel good, and I
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: know that there are all kinds of commentaries and stories
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: and books and everything else about that great day when
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: Jackie played in the major leagues. But what was happening
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: to him? And what was happening to him was he
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: was becoming more and more and more disillusioned with this country.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: I'm doing what you're asking me to do. And you're
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: still rejecting me. Yeah.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: And I think something that I did not quite appreciate
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: until reading this, even having like taken in some of
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the background on this, like I didn't feel like I
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: was ignorant to Jackie Robinson's time with the Dodgers, but
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: I don't think I had quite an understanding of how,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know if begrudged is the right word, but
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: the white folks is a little tired of his guff.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: The guff, you know, he did his two years of
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: having to put up with it. Then after that, he
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: was a guff fest.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was robust. He was like, I'm not taking
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: it from anybody anymore.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: And he also just consistently, all right, so what about this, right?
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: So I thought you guys were going to work on this.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: And so the press was interesting in, you know, the
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: compilations that you have of media opinions of him.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: And the word exhausting comes up. And this is often
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: the case.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I think you and I are both in the spaces
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: in which we inhabited our business.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: They think it's cool at first.
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Until they get tired of it.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: Then they don't want to hear it. Exactly. Which is
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: what you're seeing. This is the backlash that you're seeing
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: in the country today. Oh, Kaepernick protests. Then they get
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: tired of it. We don't want to hear it anymore. Oh, well,
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: what about this? In other words, be grateful for what
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: you have. It goes back to what Robeson would say. Benevolence,
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: not equality. Just be happy. We're giving you anything. Be
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: happy you're here. And that's the whole point. The giving,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: not the earning. We're giving you something. You're not earning this.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: You haven't earned the right to speak. We're giving you
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: the opportunity to be here. And that is a very, very,
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: very different conversation. That's the reason why when you're in
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: these boardrooms, seen but not heard. And in Jackie's case,
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: when his quiet period ended, he let everybody have it.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: But he let everybody have it the same way Leo
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: DeRocher let everybody have it, the same way Eddie Stanky
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: let everyone have it, the same way all the other
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: white ball players, you know, same way Ted Williams let
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: everybody have it. But it was different coming from him.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: And so this also did two things. The first thing
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: it did was it completely continued to disillusion him. The
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: second thing it did actually did three things. The second
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: thing that it did was it really began to... demand
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: that he be good for a long time because the
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: millisecond that he slipped a little bit, they're going to
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: get rid of him. And that is the third thing
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: it did. It created no goodwill for him going forward.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: The feeling was mutual that as much as we talk
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: about Jackie Robinson and he's got a freeway in New
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: York named after him in schools and he's on a
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: stamp and the whole thing, by the time Jackie was
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: ready to retire, they couldn't wait to get rid of him.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: Baseball had been trying to get rid of, the Dodgers
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: had been trying, especially after Branch Rickey had left to
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: go to the Pirates in 1950, the Dodgers couldn't wait
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: to get rid of him. They were tired of all
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: his mouth, tired of him fighting about integration, tired of
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: him going on radio and saying that the Yankees were
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: a racist organization, tired of asking, how come these teams
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: haven't integrated? I've been here a decade. They were tired
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: of all of it. And And it really did have
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: great consequences on him going forward. Jackie only got... You
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: got to get 75% to get into the Hall of Fame.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Jackie got 77%. It wasn't like he was 90 unanimous.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: And we talk about it like it's unanimous. It was
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: not unanimous. 309 out of 10 seasons.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Struggle.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: He was the best second baseman of all time by
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: the time he retired.
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: And.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: The Dodgers were tired of him. He had no relationship
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: after Charlie Dressen left and Walter Alston took over. He
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: had no allies. And what do we know? You need
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: advocates in that game. And then Jackie found out as well,
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: once he retired, now he's going to go full time
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: into civil rights. And what's he finding? He's finding out
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: that race is just the topic for the white allies
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: that he thought he had All these other things were
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: more important. And so he was frustrated there. And so
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: the disillusionment was like, you're not really about it. And
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: you put me up there in front of Congress to
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: talk about equality and what was possible in the United States,
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: and you're not really about it. And he stood tall
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: for a lot of those years. And then once he
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: stood tall, you had this new generation of activists who
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: were like, you're just Uncle Tom. you know, you're not
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: about it, right? And so Jackie was really sort of
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: caught on both sides here. And he's a fascinating, fascinating
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: study because he exemplifies the battles that we all go through.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: How do you navigate this?
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: In the end, he wound up in so many ways
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: being a man without a country. And with a question,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: another one that you and I discussed for a while,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: which is, how possible it is to be a black
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: conservative and not not end up in the territory of sellout. Like,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: it's hard to make the argument about Jackie Robinson that
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: he was just a toady for the white man.
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Like, it's just there's there's a lot of data on
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: the other side.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: He also was and this is before it just became
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: a completely foreign thought that this could happen.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: But he was absolutely a black Republican.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: He supported Nixon in 1960, which he came to regret,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: but his argument was that he really thought that people,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: one thing to note about Richard Nixon is that at
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: this time he was seen by black people as one
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: of the good ones. And that he, Robinson firmly believed
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: that John F. Kennedy did not care about black people
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: at all, that he had no concern for civil rights
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: or whatever. But by the time you get through the 1960s,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Robinson is a voice within the Republican Party still talking
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: about race, and they don't want to hear any of this.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: They got Goldwater out here in 1964, like Nelson Rockefeller
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: wound up being his guy. And there's a great story,
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: and I never had it made by Jackie Robinson, about
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: how Rockefeller started kicking up with Reagan. And Jackie was like, hey, man,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: I got to go talk to this man about this
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: because I don't think this Reagan dude is good news.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: And he goes and tells Rockefeller, you know, I got
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: some questions about Reagan. And he says, funny, he said
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: the same thing about you. That's the world that Jackie
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Robinson was in. And then you look around and it's like,
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: where are your allies? You're on the wrong side. You're
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: living in New York city. You're on the wrong side
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: of Malcolm X, you know, through that, through the time
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: period where that was irrelevant piece of information, everywhere it went,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: he was a little too strident for the right wing
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: of this country and not quite strident enough for the
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: left wing.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: That's right. And he recognized the association with Nixon was
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: a very clear one sports fan. two Californians. And Nixon,
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: for everything else you might want to say about Richard Nixon,
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: he wasn't rich. He wasn't a Kennedy. Kennedy was, you
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: want to talk about coastal elite, right? I mean, so
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: Jackie identified more with Nixon and there was a sort
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: of a mutual admiration there. And Jackie was also an old,
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: he was part of an old school tradition of black
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: politics that doesn't exist anymore. which was this idea that
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: both parties, that we needed both parties, that we needed
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: to have a voice in both parties. In 1932, before
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: the New Deal, before FDR takes over, Black people identified
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: almost 50-50 with both parties. That's unheard of now. It's
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: like it's 98%, you know, Democrats. democratic leaning. And so
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: the idea that you needed to have a representation in
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: both parties, Jackie held strong to that, even though he
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: says he was an independent, he leaned conservative, he's from
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: a conservative family. And by 1963, when now you're starting,
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: you're really getting into the civil rights movement, you've got
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: Medgar Evers and you've got the, you know, you've got
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: the you know, the bombings in Birmingham, you've got everything
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: going on there. Robinson's people in the GOP are like, yeah, no,
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: not for us. And Robinson was really, really angry about
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: two things. One, he was angry that even earlier in 57,
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: he was sending telegrams. And how great is it for
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: him to have a direct line to the White House saying, hey,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: you got to do something in Arkansas. You got to
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: do something in Little Rock.
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: Crickets.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: And then when it came to MLK being in the
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: Birmingham jail, Nixon didn't make the call. And he's like,
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: these people aren't listening to me. And then he writes
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: a piece in the Saturday Evening Post titled, The GOP
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: for White Men Only. And for it, he was destroyed
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: by William F. Buckley, who is now once again, this
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: is the new Republican Party. And this is 60 years ago.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: And so you could see that Man Without a Country
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: is absolutely accurate for Robinson because he had one other problem.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: He also didn't understand the politics of it, didn't know
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: that you're here to be Jackie Robinson. We're not here
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: to listen to you. You know, you're here to be seen,
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: not heard. And anyone who would think that doesn't know
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: anything about Jackie Robinson.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: And on the other side was Paul Robeson, who was.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: literally rendered a man without a country. An honest to
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: God enemy of the United States of America, at least
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: in the eyes of J. Edgar Hoover, in the eyes
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: of the HUAC, in the eyes of everyone else. And
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: it culminates to a point of something that I thought
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: was interesting you talked about in the book. I was
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: aware of Robeson having his passport revoked. I was not
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: aware that there was just a person who was in
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: charge of that.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: One person, Ruth Shipley, Can you imagine the power that
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: this non-elected person that no one has ever heard of
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: had complete control over who got to travel, who didn't,
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: who was issued a passport, who wasn't, and that she
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: was essentially an extremely powerful wing of anti-progressive forces? That
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: not just Robeson, but a lot of left-leaning people, Du
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: Bois took his passport for eight years. Robeson's passport held
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: for eight years, and we talk about cancel culture today.
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: This is actually cancel culture, that this is what was
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: done to Paul Robeson. We talk about where we are
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: in this country today. So much of what is taking
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: place right now in terms of loyalty oaths, in terms
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: of the assault on higher education, the weaponizing education, weaponizing
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: the government against these political beliefs, that Paul Robeson had
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: his passport taken away from him for being a liberal
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: progressive American, just for his political beliefs. He refused to
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: sign an affidavit saying he was not a member of
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: the Communist Party, not because he was a member of
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: the Communist Party, but because you're not supposed to do
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: that here. So here's somebody who's being called un-American, And
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: one of the things that he's doing is he's leaning
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: on the premises of being an American. Isn't this what
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: being an American means? And for that, lost his passport
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: for eight years, lost his right to travel, lost his ability,
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: because while he's not allowed to travel, he wasn't even
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: allowed to go to American territories. He couldn't go to
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: Puerto Rico. He couldn't go to Hawaii. He couldn't go
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: to Alaska. He couldn't go anywhere. He couldn't drive to
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: Canada where you don't need a passport. The government ordered...
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: or asked the Canadian government to stop Robeson at the border.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: He was not allowed to leave the country simply for
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: his political beliefs.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: And they were terrified that he goes to these other
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: places and that people listen to him.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: And they told him.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: At the same time, the government, there's a great documentary
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: called Soundtrack to a Coup d'etat. It does not necessarily
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: achieve all its goals of connecting jazz to this counterinsurgency
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: movement that the State Department was enacting all over the globe.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: but it makes it very clear that they were sending
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: people around the world to, Black people to give a
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: positive voice to the experience of Blackness in America. And
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: they were terrified that the uncontrollable Paul Robeson was going
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: to go all these other places and be like, man,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: that ain't it at all.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: Well, you go one step further than that, Beau, actually,
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: in that when you have, you know, when you see
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: Draymond Green out there going to, you know, going to Israel,
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: and when you see these Black athletes flying around the
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: world doing these goodwill missions, The root of that program
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: was specifically and written to counter the voice of Paul Robeson.
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: That's why they exist. They exist to this day to
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: stop him, to stop his voice, to shout down his voice.
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: And there are government memos saying, certainly there are other
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: prominent African-Americans that we can show because the Africans who
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: were in the middle of these anti-colonial movements, these independence
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: movements that were taking place at the exact same time,
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: of the civil rights movement, who are they listening to?
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: They're listening to Robeson. They're listening to Du Bois. They're
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: listening to the more radical voices that are really telling
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: you what is happening here. And in order for Robeson
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: to get his passport back, he was told he had
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: to do two things. The first thing he had to
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: do was he had to sign an affidavit saying he
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: was not a member of the Communist Party, which he refused.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: The second thing he had to do was they said,
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: if we allow you to travel, you have to promise
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: us that you will make no political commentary in any
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: of your public appearances. He refused that as well. What
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: was crazy about it all is that once the Supreme Court,
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: now you've got the Warren Court in 1958, finally striking
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: Ruth Shipley down and striking down this completely illegal, unconstitutional
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: edict that they get to decide that you can be
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: barred from travel for your political beliefs. Once that happened,
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: nobody cared. Robeson got his passport back. Rockwell Kent got
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: his passport back. Du Bois got his passport back. And
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: then life went on. There was no introspection of what
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: had we just done? What have we done to each other?
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Which is very similar to what I see happening now.
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: People aren't saying, what are we doing? Like really sitting
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: down going, who are we? And what is this really
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: all about? And to me, that, that was the, the,
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: every time I was working on a chapter, I'm like, Oh,
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: this sounds like today.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: This was to me, very similar. Um, slow bird is slate.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Um, Josh Levine did one on David Duke, and it
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: was very clear that it was really about Donald Trump, right?
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Like where you read and you're like, oh, these are
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: direct parallels. The parallels to today in this were very clear.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: With Robeson, the one thing I want to talk about,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: and Robeson's relationship with the Soviet Union and Russia is
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: one that I will save for people for the book
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: because it is really complex and Strangely heartbreaking. Maybe strangely,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: but the way it all plays out, you're just like,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: it's kind of like when you get to the end
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: of Animal Farm and the pigs on two legs, like
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: that happened to Paul Robeson in real life when it
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: came to the Soviet Union. But we talked about this
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: a little bit earlier. It is amazing how famous Paul
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: Robeson was. And the decision was made very clearly to
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: erase him from American life in his life and in
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: his death. Like the idea that I would say 75
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: to 80 percent of the people who are listening to
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: this are like, so tell me more about this Robeson guy.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: You'll go into his wiki page for the first time.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: You'll watch some of these documentaries for the first time.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: And it's truly not that long ago that he was
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: the most famous black man in the world.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: That's right. And the guy that I always think about
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: when we have these conversations is Spike Lee.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Hold on one second. Let me make another point on
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: that that I think is important. It be your own people.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: It's not just the white people made him disappear. How
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: many Black History Month programs have you been to that
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: spoke to the legacy of Paul Robeson? Like, I don't
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: even know if they was doing it like that in
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Philly and New Jersey, right? The decision was made to sacrifice. Honestly,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: the man and nobody in his position that I could
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: think of had ever fought harder for us than Robeson.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: And we just tossed them.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: And on top of that, well, once again, that is
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: the power of the Red Scare. That's the power of
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: the times. The decision was made. In fact, you know,
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: when you're dealing with the Hollywood 10 and you go
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: into all of these actors and actresses out there, the
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: decision had been made in a wonderful book called Naming
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: Names by Victor Novosky, who just passed away about a
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: year ago, a couple of years ago. The decision had
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: been made. OK, Lena Horne, we're not after you. okay,
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: Ruby Dee, okay, Ossie Davis, Harry Belafonte, we're not after
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: you if you give us Robeson. And Paul Robeson is
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: the inspiration for all of them. There's not a black
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: stage performer that has not followed in Paul Robeson's footsteps,
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: including Denzel Washington, who played Othello, who has done everything
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: that Robeson had done. I mean, this is the guy.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: He's the godfather of all of this. James Earl Jones,
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: Keith David, Andre Brau, all of them. And so it
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: was a tactical decision. Give us Robeson. One of the
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: great giants of the civil rights movement, Bayard Rustin, said
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: in the Marty Duberman 1989 Robeson biography, Titanic book as well,
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: after Robeson gave the Paris speech in 1949, that the
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: NAACP and the black establishment gathered to say, what's the
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: strategy to sacrifice him? And I don't necessarily, and you
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: were asking about this earlier, how we feel about all this. Yeah,
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: was it impossible? People don't realize how disqualifying being associated
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: with the Communist Party was in the 1950s. I understand
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: that completely. But did you have to pile on? Like,
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: did you have to? Silence was not an option.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: But did you literally have to work in concert with
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: the State Department?
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: With the State Department.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: And I think that's the part that struck me.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Was the, it wasn't just a, hey man, maybe we
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: can do a little something here, you know, maybe, no, no, no, no, no.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Y'all was in it together.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: Together. And in it together, you know, and it was
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: the media too. I mean, Ebony was, you know, did
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: a piece on, you know, has Paul Robeson betrayed the Negro?
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: Paul Robeson? And so, but once again, one of the
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: hardest things about doing history And one of the hardest
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: things about trying to do it well, especially, is recognizing
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: that 1951 is not 2026. You have to be able
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: to put yourself in that world. And some of the
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: comps to me would be something similar to, you know,
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: when Kaepernick was.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Like, all right, who's with me?
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: And guys are looking at their paychecks and looking at
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: their contracts or, you know, or you know, on college
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: campuses today when people are walking around, you know, pro-Palestine going,
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: who's with me? And you got all these college presidents going, okay,
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: whoever's with you ain't going to be here very long.
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: So the price is everything. And I think the most
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: important thing to remember about then versus now is these
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: guys didn't have any real money. We're not talking about
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: these guys being multimillionaires and lacking courage because they're you know,
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: because they're set for life. Paul Robeson went from making
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: $ 125, 000 a year in 1949 to making $ 2, 000. I mean,
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: that's real money. I mean, you are sacrificing literally your
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: entire livelihood.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: I saw Robeson from the book.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: I thought this was such a great passage where he's like,
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: those who stood by Paul Robeson, this is from after
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: his death. Those who stood by Paul Robeson saw no
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: need for reappraisal because their belief in him had never waned.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: the tallest tree in the forest, the great forerunner, citizen
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: of the world. He had provided shade for those with
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: his commitment and values, and in return, he received their protection, gratitude,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: and veneration. Along with many others in remembrance of Robeson,
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: one letter to the editor in particular appeared as an
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: indictment of society and the individuals who only now, too late,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: understood the true scope of Robeson and, as Jackie Robinson
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: would describe it when recalling his own part of Robeson's downfall,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: America's destructiveness. As one letter would say of Robeson, He
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: wasn't mentioned in history books like Nathan Hale. He wasn't
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: mentioned on football game broadcasts like Red Grange. He wasn't
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: mentioned in dramatic reviews like Barrymore. He wasn't mentioned by
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: opera critics like Caruso. The man who was never mentioned
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: despite the fact that he truly excelled not in one
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: of the above fields, but in all of them. Like,
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: I remember when he finally got in the College Football
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. It was in the 1990s, and it
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: was just kind of mentioned. I remember Chris Fowler being like,
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: you know, Paul Robeson, he was a big deal back
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: in the day, kind of, sort of.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: And I didn't.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: Which, by the way, Beaumont Jones was based at Rutgers. Yes, yes.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: His alma mater.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Just so everybody's clear. And look, I knew of Robeson
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: as a name. But I did not realize how insane
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: it was. Like, I thought it was maybe like, because
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: I didn't think of it as an athlete, right? It
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: was maybe like, oh, they just finally got around to that.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: You know that happens sometimes with a Hall of Fame. No,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: they just weren't doing it. The NAACP took them off
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: the list of Spingarn medal winners.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: They just decided to act like the man wasn't here.
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they never officially took him off, but they never
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: mentioned him as a winner. In fact, when Jackie Robinson
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: won in 56, when they named him in 56 as
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: a Spingarn winner, They said he was the first athlete
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: to be awarded the medal. Robeson played in college football
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: and in the NFL, and he won it in 1945.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: So this is an erasing. I mean, this is an
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: active erasing. You have to work at this. And in 1951,
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: they were not afraid. I mean, the College Football Hall
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: of Fame Committee had said in 1950, I think it
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: was 51, that They did not consider Paul Robeson because
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: of his communist affiliations. They just came out and said it.
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: So we are actively erasing you. But when you say
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: it be your own people, did we have to do
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: that too? Right. And that's where I put Spike Lee
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: in there as one of the most important figures. You know,
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: I know I got you by a few years, but
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: if you think about who Malcolm X was in 1988, 89,
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: he's a villain. He's shaped by white people. He's shaped
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: by white America. He was shaped in, we weren't even
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: taught Malcolm X in schools at any level. You take
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: Spike Lee and all the merch and the movies and
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: the hats and everything else, and then you take hip
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: hop with it. You take Chuck D and KRS-One with
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: it and all the Afrocentric black movement, you know, hip
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: hop movement. That's what revived Malcolm X. That's what reclaimed
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X to us, which made him ours. You know,
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, because before that, Malcolm X was public enemy
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: number one.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you this, too. It's happened gradually.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: We don't talk about it, which is the slow erasure
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: of Jackie Robinson. I can't remember exactly what it was,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: but was it the mentions of Jackie Robinson in the
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: Defense Department and all that stuff and taking those sorts
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: of things back? Year by year, they still do Jackie
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: Robinson Day in Major League Baseball, but Jackie Robinson is
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: very much a boomer hero. The boomers did a great
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: job of canonizing the events of their time, but now
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: that they're getting older, we don't see that stuff necessarily
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: being continued, right?
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: Well, that's right. Well, how can you continue it when
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: the players aren't there either?
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: So Jackie Robinson Day is a day that's celebrated, not
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: a time that's celebrated.
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: You know, it's something that is in the past. It's
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: not something that is present because, you know, the 6.5%
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: black players in the game now.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: Well, think about this.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: Jerry Stackhouse wore number 42 in the NBA as a
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: tribute to Jackie Robinson. Like Jackie Robinson still loomed large
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: in my twenties.
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: As like, as a, as a significant historical figure in
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: sports and in America. I don't know what Jackie Robinson
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: means to you at this point if you're 15. Because
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: he did mean something to us when we were 15.
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: 100%.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Like, I don't have to go explain to people who
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: Jackie Robinson is.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: And I feel like in 10 years, you will.
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: You may have to. And that is also the reason why,
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: and I'm sure this is another conversation for another podcast,
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: but this is the reason why you have to protect
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: your own stories and tell your own stories. And if
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: you don't have access, if you don't have the agency
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: of your own history, your history is going to disappear.
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: Not maybe kind of might disappear, will disappear. It's going.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: You're watching it erode right now. And that erosion isn't
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: simply the idea of, well, you know, you got to
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: talk about some ideas that you, you know, that you like.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: It's also if the doors are open to tell those stories,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: because we're still not in control publishing wise. of which
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: stories get greenlit.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: Kings and Pawns, Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: This book right here, you can go get it anywhere
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: that they sell these books. And I'm telling you, I've
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: read many of Howard's books. This is the best one
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: that I've read so far. And as much as the
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: material sounds heavy, I'm telling you, I ran through this
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: in a day and a half. Like it is a
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: technical masterpiece in that sense. It is an easy read.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: It is a consumable read. There are very few wasted
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: words in it. I highly, highly, highly recommend you go
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: check it out. And you guys know me. I'm not
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: telling you to go read something just because my partner
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: wrote it. This is something that I think is important
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: for people to check out. And I hope you get
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: a chance to.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: Give it a read.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: Kings and Pauls, Howard Bryant, my brother, I appreciate you.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: And best of luck with this, man.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: You did that. Thank you, man.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: My pleasure. It's always fun to be able to tell
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: stories that you think are important. We don't always, you know,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: we take it for granted. Don't take it for granted.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: There we go. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: joining us here on The Right Time. We do this
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: four times a week. Ryan Brumley handling everything behind the scenes.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you, sir. Remember, hit our voicemail line, 323-596-7767. And remember,
• 1:01:25
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• 1:01:29
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• 1:01:31
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• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: talk to you guys in a couple of days.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: Take it easy.