Latest / SPLITUP / Following up about telling about infidelity

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Following up about telling about infidelity · SPLITUP

• 0:07
  Speaker: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal or psychological advice.
• 0:12
  Speaker: Listening does not create a professional relationship with split up or any guests.
• 0:17
  Speaker: Launi and Robert are only licensed in the state of Arizona.
• 0:20
  Speaker: For legal or mental health concerns, please consult a licensed professional in your state.
• 0:26
  Speaker: Guest identities may be changed for privacy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Hi, welcome to Split Up.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: I'm Launi Sheldon, founder of Split Up.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: And I'm Robert DiCarlo.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I'm a licensed psychologist in the state of Arizona.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Welcome.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: So Robert got roasted.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: And that's what we're going to call this one.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Robert got beat up with his comments.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: And listen, I just want to explain to everyone that Opus Clips is a company that takes clips from our podcast and it breaks them up into little chunks, little bite-sized bits of our podcast.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: So when you see those sections, they're not the full story, they're not the whole thing.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: But there was, we talked about talking to the children about infidelity.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: And um, and and Robert, you know, had some comments on it.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: And he got beat up a little bit, but there were some other statements.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: So we're gonna kind of go through the comments on there.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: And I really want Robert to address these.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: So by the way, let's not call names.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: We're we're literally here to help you guys.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: So we're really trying to to help you guys um with your kids, with your cases.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: So be nice.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: You can call them out on stuff, but you don't need to be calling them names.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I call them out on stuff all the time.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: And and you know, the flip side of that too, Launi , is that the the discussion generated so much commentary and interest.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: So we were also pleased to see how interested people were in this particular topic and why these types of issues become so divisive in families and then how that plays out in family courts.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: So we were actually pleased to read a lot of the comments.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: It's just interesting how much um uh controversy it created amongst the different perspectives.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: And I do have to give a shout-out to Britney.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Uh Brittany Johnson was in there and making some really great uh comments.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: She just also happens to be my daughter.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: So um I don't I don't want anyone thinking that I'm hiding that.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: She went in there without me even talking about it and added some great comments.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: And so shout out to Britney.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you for that.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: But well, and and for context, Britt is is pretty involved in a lot of your family court work.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: So she has a sense and and experience in dealing with family court matters.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Correct, correct.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: So she she did some comments on there from her own page.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: She's not commenting from ours, but she did comment from her own and and she actually got some really great discussions going that I loved.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: So uh Yeah, thanks, Brittany.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was it was really great.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: She actually got there, were actually people thanking her for her comments.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: So I thought that was pretty great.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Um anyway, I'm gonna read a couple of the comments and then I'm gonna have Robert um comment on those and and have a little bit of discussion.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Um you know, one of the issues that people discussed was what about when the child already knows?
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: So the the clip was Robert saying, Don't tell the kids, basically.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: And that was a clip, a short clip of like an hour-long podcast.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Um and it was like a like a two-minute clip of like an hour-long podcast.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: So one of the questions was when and there's actually a couple of questions on this.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: So when the children already know or they witnessed it or made part of it, so here it is.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: This is BS, and I'm not gonna name anyone.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: This is BS.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I saw um, I myself saw my dad cheat with my own eyes, which you know, keep it away from your kids, seriously.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Um, I did have an issue with protecting my mother and becoming a parent because my mom told me my pain and anger were normal and relevant to what my sorry, what my dad did, instead of hiding the truth, it should be talked about and managed well so that they learn from the parent's situation.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: That's one question.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I just want to go on to the next one.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: And then the other one was what if the child knew all along and kept it quiet or was told to keep it quiet?
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: And this is you, I've heard this in my cases where the kid caught the person and went and told the other parent.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Or the kid caught the person and and just hit it because they didn't know what to do.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Um, so let's let's talk.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: There's there were several questions along this line.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: And so, Robert, why don't you go ahead and yeah, it generated a lot of conversation around that.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: And yeah, to your point, Launi , the sound bite that some people heard probably blurred that distinction that the larger podcast would have made much more clearly that these are two very different situations.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: One is a child who does not know about the infidelity, and another is a child or scenario where uh they already know or they suspect, or in the case of our comment or they witnessed it directly, which is tragic and not to suggest anybody did anything wrong.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: It's just the information came to them however it came to them.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Um, or other situations, Launi , and and we've seen this in our cases where the child is asked to keep an affair secret from the other parent.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Um so my recommendations and thoughts on that are different depending on those two situations.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: And I agree they are different circumstances.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: So we'll just clear the air with that right there.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Um, if a child witnessed something, like they saw a message, a text, an email, um, or they met the other person, or they were asked to lie, or was asked to keep a secret, um, that child's already squarely in inside the adult problem and inside the orbit of the family conflict.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: Um, and I don't think the appropriate response is um it's the the appropriate response is not silence or denial or pretending the child misunderstood something.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: The child's reality should be acknowledged, but it needs to be in an age-appropriate language and way.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: So the child might hear something like, hey, you didn't cause this, you weren't responsible for keeping a secret, you don't have to protect either parent or choose a side or decide who's good or bad.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, healthy dialogue in these types of scenarios, and you can apply this, by the way, to other scenarios outside of affairs or cheating.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Um, it's not to give the child every single detail.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: It means, you know, helping the child understand and process information that they already know.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Uh, one mistake that I think parents can make in these circumstances is repeatedly questioning them or interrogating them.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: You really have to avoid repeatedly questioning the child, asking them to provide evidence, you know, really turning them into a witness for the family, or worse, the family court proceedings.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Um, but you know, inviting them into an affair relationship is not simply about um, you know, disclosure.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: It's really a serious adult boundary problem that warrants um both acknowledgement and support.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: And I I want to ask you, and I know we're going off topic, and I do this to you all the time, and I like doing it to you, and I think you're really good at it.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: So I'm gonna do it anyway.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: You like to see me squirm in these situations.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: I just wonder if you have any advice for the parent who's maybe whose child caught the other parent and ratted them out and then felt guilty.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Because I I I've had clients where the child is the one that told, and we had to get them into counseling pretty quick because they felt like they had ruined the whole marriage.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: And so I I just wanted to know if you have any advice of what to do in those situations.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Because when you pull a kid in and a kid knows something and tells the other parent, and I say rats them out, which is probably not the right word for it because they're just telling the other parent what's going on.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Um do you do you have any maybe advice for the non-cheating parent to talk to the kid so that actually either parent, I don't care.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Uh talking to the kid to let them know that it's not their fault, that they didn't do this, that they, you know, sort of like don't shoot the messenger kind of thing.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really difficult situation, Launi , that that a parent and a child would find themselves in.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I think repetition is going to be really important.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Sometimes kids don't absorb the information the first time or second or even third time.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: They need a lot of reassurance in those circumstances, especially if they're seeing their family ruptured as a result of whatever this disclosure or finding is.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Um, so a parent can can remind the child, look, I know we've talked about this before, but I just want to remind you this is not your fault.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: I'm so sorry you got involved in this either accidentally or however they came to know the information.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Um, but you're not responsible for taking care of either of your parents right now.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: We're here to take care of you.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: It's again, all and and this is consistent with a lot of advice that we talk about is that you keeping the child squarely in the position of child in the family system.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: You're not um what we call adultifying them or giving them information that is beyond their developmental uh awareness or even ability to um to sort of fix.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: You just keep reminding them that you get to be the kid, we're gonna get through this, your parents love you, and we're gonna find the pathway through this.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: So repetition, I think, is the is the uh the key here, Launi .
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: And counseling.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: You know, I I love the idea of you know that might be something facilitated by you know a trusted therapist uh or counselor or or coach.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I might even twist your arm and have you write a little booklet for it.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: I'll I'll see what I could do.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Um, so thank you, Robert, for that.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: The the second issue that we were gonna talk about was um cheating is a family issue, not merely an adult issue.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: And so we did receive a couple of comments.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: One was cheating is not an adult issue, it's a family issue.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Someone cheats on their spouse and children because the downfall of that will affect the children too.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: That was one of them.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: And then there was another one that said, um there were some, there were some people shooting back at that, but then there were a couple other ones.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: One said, When they're out cheating, they're also lying to the children about where they are and stealing time away from their entire family, and then not telling them and covering it up is probably no better.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Trust is broken by the other parent.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Your relationship with your child is your priority.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about those.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a great segue from the previous point about you know, the adult keeping the kids kids and adults adults.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: So um, the subtext here that I hear in a lot of these comments, Fonnie, and I don't want it lost on us, is that many of the parents or individuals that are responding in these comments may have had experiences that uh approximate what we're talking about, or maybe they were the ones cheated on.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot of emotion and feeling that go behind these comments that we want to acknowledge.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Um but I agree, infidelity or cheating can affect the entire family.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: So in that way, it is sort of a family problem, um, particularly because of the uh the ways it will impact the family moving forward in the system.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: So it may change, for example, the parent availability, um, certainly the emotional functioning of the parents.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: If one parent is grieving and hurt and angry, that's going to come out in the system, right?
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Um, it could directly impact finances if you know there's a rupture in the in the family and the household.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: That means the routines, the trust may also be impacted in those ways.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Um and ultimately whether the parents remain together or not.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Um, so you know, we have to look at just let me stop you there.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: And again, I'm gonna do something that I know you hate when I do, but um, one of the things that you had said in that other video was like it's and you got a little bit beat up on this also, was that you kind of compared it to other reasons that people get a divorce.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, right.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: And so when you're talking about this in the emotions and that there's gonna be a change, and the change isn't necessarily part of it clearly is because of the cheating, but I think part of it's because of the divorce.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: So had the person left first, they wouldn't have cheated and you would still have this problem.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: So I I kind of just wanted your thought process on that.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: When people are talking about it like um, you know, that it that it's a family issue, divorce is the family issue.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: That sounds like fantastic.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: That could have happened because of um, you know, gambling addiction or a porn addiction or um and a a plethora of shopping addictions, you know, there's there's all kinds of things that could cause a family to rupture and to to cause a divorce.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: And I and you did talk about that.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: We didn't go into it much, and so I don't know if this is the right place to go into it, but when you're saying that, yeah, the kids are going to notice a difference, there's gonna be a divorce, there's gonna be less money, there's gonna be problems.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: That can happen for a number of reasons.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: I can tell you, I see, you know, I've seen people in my office for every other reason under the sun, people using drugs, people using alcohol.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Um it still caused damage, it still caused a divorce.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: And so I think the divorce is the issue more than, again, the the cheating.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: But if you can kind of just maybe touch on that a little bit.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, honestly, Jami, I think that was beautifully articulated.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I think to distinguish this as, you know, the divorce being the family problem versus the actual um impetus or the thing that sort of uh preceded the divorce, it could be any of those things.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: And so that I think was the point I was trying to make in our last talk was that whether it's the examples you gave, domestic violence or an affair or some other rupture due to something distrustful, those could have all preceded the divorce or the separation anyway, or uh somebody could have initiated a separation or divorce because they wanted to do those things.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: The feeling and the impact to the child and the parents uh may not have changed.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: It's it's sort of how we talk about it.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: So kind of going back to, you know, children deserve, you know, truthful information.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: You know, they need to know what happened.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Um, certainly in some circumstances, children deserve truthful information about what directly affects them.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: So again, we go back to where are you going to be living?
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: When will they see the parent?
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Whether they're safe, whether they cause the separation, those are all things that need to be addressed.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: They do not automatically benefit from information where the principal purpose is to establish which parent was morally responsible.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Because as you and I both know, Launi , like that that truth, quote unquote truth, is very subjective, you know, because it could be even in the case of an affair, like, well, I left because I was, you know, dissatisfied with our intimacy, right?
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: And so that's one parent's truth.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Or I had an affair because I was just dissatisfied with our intimacy and you weren't doing anything about it, right?
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: We hear those types of narratives.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: That's a subjective narrative or a subjective truth that may not be shared by the other parent.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: And so it's the same with like alcoholism, you know, alcoholism or someone's trying to stay in the marriage, they're you're they're hanging on, you know, by a thread into the marriage because someone's an alcoholic or a drug addict or has been abusive and they don't necessarily want to leave their kids or leave the marriage, but maybe they're finding some kind of softness somewhere else, some kind of relationship that's helping them make it through that.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Should they have just left?
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Possibly.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: But the I think that you kind of go, okay, is there a hierarchy of marital sins?
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Um, and and what is that?
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Before you get divorced.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: And so is divorce way up here?
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Is divorce before abuse?
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Is cheating way up here?
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: And is it before abuse?
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: And is it um is it before a sexual assault?
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Is it before an alcoholism?
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Or is it before, you know, a porn addiction?
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Like at which level, you know, is the highest one and what are we going to tell our kids?
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: And I think that's what I was really wanting to get to partially today.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Well, and that hierarchy that you mentioned could be entirely contextual too.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: So a behavior in any one of those domains may not be equivalent to another one in a different domain.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Let's say, for example, you learn that your spouse had been taking out tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt on a secret credit card, and you had no idea about that, and it caused significant financial harm.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: That could be perceived by one person as a bigger betrayal than maybe an affair, because it impacted the sustainability of that family.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: And so no two situations are necessarily comparable.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, certainly, and I'm sure we'll get commentary on, you know, well, abuse is abuse, right?
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: If you're abused, like that, that we can't tolerate that.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Of course, we cannot tolerate physical, sexual, emotional abuse, coercive control, all of the things that impact families in real family systems, right?
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: But but again, it's the impact of the behavior and how it was received by the other party.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: And again, how we separate and talk about those issues with kids.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Those are very different things.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we're gonna hit this other one where kids have the right to know, right?
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: And I this one always gets me.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: It gets everybody, you know.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: No, they don't, but in my mind, because they don't have the right to know everything.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: They don't have the right to know, like if you're having sex with your spouse in the room, like there's things that's none of their business.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Um, so do they have the right to know about this?
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: So here's a couple of here's here's you getting roasted again.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Um points are pretty weak.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Truth does not have to be brutal, but it has to be spoken.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Delivery will change based on age, but truth needs to be told.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: And you really risk helping history repeat itself.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: And the one thing I want to comment on that really quickly is I don't know how you help history repeat itself if the person doesn't know.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I think history repeats itself when the person knows what the history is.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I don't think that um, and this is me, and you've got a psychological background, but if if literally if you're if you're keeping things from your kids, they don't know it.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: So I don't know how they're going to how that how what happened is going to affect them if they didn't know it.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: So go ahead.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's it it's uh powerful to talk in sort of generalizations or cliches, like history repeating itself.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: But again, you can't really compare two circumstances um as equal.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: And so one of the other comments in that same sort of theme was, you know, one one person said there isn't uh there's uh quite some space between gaslighting children and giving the details.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: So, you know, I agree with that last comment.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: There is that considerable space between what people call gaslighting a child and giving a child every single detail about what happens.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: So honesty is something that you want to prioritize, it's essential, but honesty is not the same as a complete disclosure.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, we do this all the time when we talk to kids about, you know, Santa Claus.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: If you, you know, have um uh Christmas or other sort of traditions, those are sort of more benign examples.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: But like one that you mentioned, if you're having, you know, uh a sexual encounter with your spouse or partner, like you're not going to share those details with your kids.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Um, parents shouldn't fabricate a false explanation or insist everything is fine when it plainly is not, or make the child distrust their own observations.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: At the same time, Launi , children are not automatically entitled to every fact about their parents' adult or sexual relationship.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: They just aren't.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Like, I don't, I don't see where there's an argument for that.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: So if an unaware child asks a direct question, you have to first determine what prompted the question and what the child already knows.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: You can't just start from not knowing what they already know.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: And then you can respond accurately, but keep it narrow.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: You know, consider their age, their maturity, consider their emotional needs.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, the relevant questions are why am I telling the child?
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Why does the uh what does the child need?
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: And what burden will the information create?
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Because you may not be considering that by telling them something, they may carry the information in a way you didn't intend.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: For example, they may blame themselves when that wasn't your intent, but they may have known information or suspected information about the other parent and never shared.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: That's almost a recipe for a child feeling guilty or like they're responsible.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: So truthfulness does not always require transferring the entire adult story, the entire adult history onto the child.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and certainly don't ask your kids.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Like don't put your kids in the middle and ask them, did you know anything about this?
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Did you, you know, did you see your dad with anyone or your mom with anyone?
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Let's not bring the kids into that.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Um you know, when you do, that does affect your case, also, just so that you understand that in court, it can maybe a court's thought of your um ability.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: To co-parent with the other parent appropriately.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: So keep that in mind.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Well, and I'll add to that too, Launi , if you're under an evaluation or there's a pending evaluation by a mental health professional, they may look at those types of behaviors as overly involving the child and possibly uh kind of viewed as uh prioritizing your anger and hurt over what's in the best interest of the child.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we we definitely I don't think we've done a podcast on on that because I think that's gonna be a really important podcast to talk about how not to do that, how not to let your feelings um affect your child that drastically.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: We did do something where I because I was saying, well, I think kids have to see us sad so that they can see us, you know, get out of it and and persevere through it, right?
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Um but that's a different podcast, that's a different time.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: So um what about here's the the statement they're going to find out anyway.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: So here's um a comment it says, unless your children, unless your children live in a bubble, you should be the ones to tell the children all the reasons that led to the divorce.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Now, I mean, this this is I could write a list to my kids.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Um and maybe, maybe I will, maybe that'll be their option on my deathbed.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'll put like an envelope in my uh in my I'm dead now what or whatever folder that I've got.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Um, but it says of all the reasons that led to divorce.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I had a friend growing up who heard about her dad's affair at school.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: A kid in her class overheard some adults gossiping about it and then shared it with their friends.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: In a perfect world, you'd be able to control what others say.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: But we do not live in a perfect world, and kids will find out, and it's best to come from the source.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: So that was one of them.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: And then there was another one that said, depends on the kid's age.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: A three-year-old will be confused, upset, and not understand.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: And then there was another one that said, when a parent suddenly tells the kids that the other parent is moving out or not coming home, and then a couple days later, they've got another guy or girl in the house all the time.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: And then they a few weeks after that person moves into the house, I'm pretty sure the kids are smart enough to know what happened.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about that.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: So they're gonna find out anyway.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the risk of outside discovery is a real possibility.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: You know, kids, in like in the example of the commenter, you know, children may hear gossip.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Um, they may even directly observe a new relationship.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Or I think more commonly, maybe you'd agree, Launi , is like they see something in social media or they draw conclusions from major changes to their household.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: So that possibility should be a factor in your decision and consideration, but it doesn't create an automatic rule necessarily that every child should be told preemptively.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Um, if you think an outside disclosure might be imminent, um, I think a really calm and planned conversation may be more productive than allowing an accidental or kind of humiliating discovery, as in the example the commenter made.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: So um, the best case scenario, if we were to do this uh effectively and collaboratively, the parents agree on a truthful, limited, non-inflammatory explanation.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Um, if a new partner is becoming visible in the child's life, the child needs really an honest explanation of that household change.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: But explaining a present relationship doesn't necessarily require providing the child with a detailed chronology of the affair.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: That would be in the example, you know, of like a new partner, a new to the child partner coming into their life, but they were actually the individual that was involved in an affair or an infidelity.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Um, so the purpose should be to prepare and support the child, not to make sure one parent's version reaches the child first to kind of control the narrative.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: So I I think this really can hold true, especially if a parent, we've had this before, I've seen this not infrequently, where a parent has an affair with a coach or a parent has an affair with a teacher or another parent, and and it just kind of is in that, you know, or or somebody in the school administration, right?
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: So something like that, obviously that can get out.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Um you know, their best friend's other, you know, their best friend's other parent, right?
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Those kinds of things can get out.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: But I I hesitate again because it's like, okay, so that person did that.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Now do we just get to open the floodgates?
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Because yeah, they've heard the one thing, but have they heard the other 50 things from the other parent?
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: And that's where you want to decide.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think you need like I like I like what you said that you come up with a a joint narrative.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: I I feel like that probably doesn't happen very often.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: I feel like there's a lot of anger when somebody has cheated, that the joint narrative is going to um not necessarily work when there's a lot of anger and sadness and unforgiveness and um everything else that comes out of that.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: So kind of what's your thought on that?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Like if if there's just this whole like if if there's this, you know, one thing this one parent did, but but by the way, maybe this other parent had cheated five other times and and this is the time that caused the divorce.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Well, and and this is the slippery slope that parents don't realize is when you feel like you need to like jump in and overshare with your child because you feel they need to understand the truth, you are inadvertently inviting the other parent to now share their counter narrative.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: And what always happens in these cases, Launi , is then it becomes sort of a war of who can provide the most information to convince the child.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: In almost every case where I've seen that happen, and each parent is sort of like escalating it, um, the child eventually gives up knowing what the truth is and they become almost um agnostic in things.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: And it's like, I don't even know what the reality is anymore.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've had kids tell me that they're so frustrated by hearing each parent's narrative that they don't even care anymore.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: In fact, it really impairs their ability to have empathy and compassion for either parent at that point, because even if one parent was objectively true and honest, the back and forth is what is really causing the problems for the child.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: And so I try to share this with parents when I'm doing co-parenting therapy, and it doesn't feel as satisfying to them, as gratifying as being vindicated or validated, in at least their perception through their child's eyes.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Um, but I'm in my clinical experience, it's almost always tearing the kid apart.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do we do want to talk about co-parenting, coaching, and counseling at some point, because again, at what at what point do you just stop and let your kid be a kid and um yeah, write it in your memoir, right?
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Like like like write it in a book at some point that you can publish when you die or something.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Um all right, let's let's get to the to this this next one is the parent who cheated should admit it and apologize.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, here's the here's the comment.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna try and my I've the I'm my eyes are getting a little glary.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: I think I have really bad allergies.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: But um if the child is old enough to understand, like teenagers, they should be told really the person who cheated should be the one who tells and owns it and should come up with an apology to the spouse and children, then there should be a plan moving forward, reassuring the children and supporting them.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: It's not your responsibility to repair the trust with the that the other parent broke.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: And that's something I really want you to comment on specifically.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: When somebody has an affair, are they are they breaking their trust with the kid?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Are they breaking the trust with the parent?
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Are they breaking the trust with the marriage or the relationship if they're not married?
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: I I because this is sort of the same context that the person has that, you know, it it's a family thing.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: And and I want to sort of dig deeper in that.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: I uh and just to maybe like reiterate your point, I think the the impact of the behavior is the family thing, is the thing that impacts the family.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: So um these are really hard issues and they're nuanced.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And I understand why it generates so much commentary.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Accountability is important, but it's not accountability.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: The accountability to one spouse is not identical to the disclosure to the children.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: And so, to that question you pose, Launi , I would say that the betrayal of trust or the breaking of trust is, I think, more an issue between the spouses.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: However, that doesn't mean there's no impact to the kids.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that that there isn't trust broken in the family system, too.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: It's just a little bit more nuanced than that.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: So I don't think an adult should, an adult should not confess to a child who doesn't already know, just so that they are relieved of that guilt or so that they can seek forgiveness for that child.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know that that's going to accomplish much.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: But if the child already knows or it's been disclosed, the parent responsible should generally acknowledge what happened without excuses, because once they start trying to justify or qualify, the child will almost um almost always they will sort of stop listening or view that as sort of a pivot.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Um, but you don't need to include explicit details.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, it just has to be an appropriate acknowledgement.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: So an example that I would maybe coach somebody I'm working with in counseling might be, you know, hey, I made an adult choice that hurt people.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: It really affected our family.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: I want to reassure you this was not your fault.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Um, and you don't have to take care of me or choose between your parents.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Um, I'm responsible for working to repair the harm that I caused.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: And that kind of statement really will sit with the child as, okay, I see that parent really accepting responsibility and they're going to, at least they're acknowledging that they're going to try to repair the harm.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that the child's going to feel any better right then and there.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: It's going to take repetition and behavior and and basically proving to the child that they're going to follow through with that.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we've we've kind of talked about, you know, if if the kids know and kind of hit that area.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: And some of the other comments we had were they were clearly coming from a different part of in my mind.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Um a different emotion, let's say.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily caring for the child.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: It wasn't um because they should take ownership.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: It it wasn't that kind of thing.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: There seemed to be and I'm rightfully so.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's not rightfully so.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: That there was some that came from some some really significant anger and um emotions.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying, I'm not saying that's wrong.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Like, listen, I a hundred percent agree that that's a really hurtful thing.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: And that's I I so I'm not saying don't don't get me wrong, don't come at me um for that.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: But let's talk about when it's blame and vindication and um and just wanting to, you know, correct the record.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: And so here's a couple of audience comments for that part of it.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: If the cheating partner lies and tells the children the faithful parent had an affair, then by all means the faithful parent has the right to tell the children it's a lie.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Now, that in and of itself, I agree.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Um but what do you think?
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Just from that sentence.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: If the cheating partner lies and tells the children the faithful parent had an affair, then by all means the faithful partner has the right to tell the children it's a lie.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: And it's based on the notion that the children have a right to know who they can trust.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but also then it's a big fat lie.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, I I mean, I feel like I feel like if a parent is if a parent is lying, and this is I know sometimes we disagree because I don't have your education.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: And certainly I I agree that you are um, or I can not not we're not in agreement or not disagreement, but I do believe that you are much more skilled at thinking and speaking about these things when it's about emotions, because I know I'm not.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: In my mind, um, I think that if somebody is lying about me, I get to tell the truth.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: So, what are your thoughts on that?
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, we could apply this to so many things though, Launi , but we'll stick with the current example.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: You know, the desire to correct the record is like not only is it understandable, it's palatable, um, especially for somebody who has endured some sort of significant betrayal.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Um, in this case, we're talking about an affair or infidelity, but it could be, we could again apply this to any betrayal.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Um, your kids should not become instruments of vindication.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: They should not become instruments of uh retribution or even reputation management.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: You know, this moral accountability between the adults, it can absolutely coexist with protecting the children from being asked to kind of be a uh like somebody to render a verdict in it.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Um, if one parent falsely accuses the other parent, the targeted parent doesn't have to endorse the falsehood.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: So, you know, a bounded correction could sound like, hey, that statement about me is not accurate, and I'm not gonna place you in the middle of our adult disagreements.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: And it redirects the child and it role models for them that this is not appropriate behavior to, you know, make inaccurate statements, but you're also not then providing an alternative narrative that invites that counter uh counterattack that I mentioned earlier.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: So correct the specific misinformation without responding to a large a larger counter-disclosure is how I would describe that.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Um and just to be clear in forensic work when we're doing forensic evaluations, um, the intent of the person is not always directly knowable.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: So we examine the function of the communication.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Did it clarify something that the child needed to understand, or did it, in a bad circumstance, recruit the child into one parent side of the argument?
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: And that's I think what we're really concerned about when a parent is operating from this place of they need that vindication and that retribution.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I I like that.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: I I do like that.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: I like the idea of that.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: I just um that's very mature.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: It's it's very non-emotional.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Um and I I think I I think I can accept that, that that's maybe the the right way to go.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Um, I don't deny that, but I do think it's really hard.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: So do you have any tips on maybe what somebody could do?
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: I know you just gave us what they could say, but you know, other than running in a room and screaming in a pillow, like how do you make yourself be the better person?
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Because, and for lack of a better word, the better person.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Um how do you make yourself understand that?
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Because when somebody's coming at you with exact lies, which is not uncommon, it is not uncommon for people to blame the other parent for the crap that they've done.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Like it's that's so super common that I see in divorce all the time.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Um well, can I just add not not even in not even in divorce?
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: You see that in families in the same household, right?
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Like sort of blaming the other parent.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is not unique to divorces.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: I think it it probably is easier to do across two households, but I think it can apply within even an intact family system.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Um but yeah, I mean, this is um the betrayal, the the um the emotions that are generated from a betrayal are very, very real.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: And so just because I can sit here and talk about it intellectually doesn't mean it's gonna feel different in the moment when you're experiencing it.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, this desire to tell the kids, again, you're thinking about if you were to look at it as what is the high road here?
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: And in these circumstances, under these contexts, when you're dealing with kids caught in the middle, the high road is always how do you keep the kid out of the middle?
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: And so doing the right thing to keep on the high road will often be invisible to the child and to others.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: And that's really hard because it doesn't feel validating.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like you've done anything to move the needle.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: But I would assure parents that do that, that sort of silently maintain and adhere to boundaries are doing the better, stronger work.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: And so one of the skills that I teach parents is let that be sort of your mantra and the thing that carries you through a really difficult time of anger, hurt, betrayal is that I can be the better person or the bigger person here, not the better person, but the bigger person here, take the high road, not involve my kid, keep them out of the metal, even if it means me believing that my child thinks something differently.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Because you know, based on what I hopefully just said, that if you do provide that narrative for them, it will almost guarantee a counter-narrative and a retaliation from the other parent, because then they're going to offer their perspective.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: And again, it becomes about managing perspectives, managing narratives.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: It's really difficult when you believe somebody else believes something that's not true.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: But I would encourage parents to think about that out of the context of their own family situation.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: You could have had a same similar situation with a friend or a coworker or another family member, right?
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: It's still that that feeling is still generally the same of I'm not being seen, I'm not being heard.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: It's not your kids' job to see or hear you necessarily accurately.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: They they don't do that anyway.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: They view you as a resource most of the time for getting their needs met.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: And of course, there's love and attachment there too, but uh, but certainly they're not always looking through uh sort of a clean lens either.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: And so why why dirty that up any further?
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I I want to kind of address two things in what was said.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Um, and it's gonna be from your perspective and mine as a lawyer.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: If you have involved your kids, my first thing to do if you were having a um a custody evaluation or someone's calling you out on it, my advice is to say, yep, I did it.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: That was bad.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I was very emotional.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: I got caught off guard by this thing that happened and I was not being my best self.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: And I would never do that again.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: And I'm sorry that I did.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: I don't certainly don't want to involve my kids in this grown-up stuff.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Um, because when they go to you, when they go to someone to get, you know, have a custody evaluation or even a limited scope or something, you know, whether one parent's involving the kids and things like that, I want my clients to suck it up, admit it, um, apologize for it, say you've learned from it and and sort of beg forgiveness at that point.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Because if you don't, it's my thought that somebody like Robert is gonna come up and say, You need to understand what this has done to your children, and you've put the children in the middle.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: And if you don't accept that you've done that, um, then you're gonna have homework, like go to counseling or figure it out, right?
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: And in in my in my story, we've already done that and we've already accepted responsibility and we've already addressed it and we fixed the problem.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Is that, do you kind of agree with that?
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, parents who demonstrate insight into behaviors across any issue, whether it's something they inappropriately share with a child, or maybe a mental health issue that they've had and needed to address, or a substance use problem that they've had and needed to address, the parents that are able to be reflective and responsive to what the needs are and how that might impact the child is going to be viewed so differently than a parent who comes in highly defended, denying, uh, minimizing, showing me all the ways that they can't take accountability when I know from looking at the bigger picture, because I have such a large amount of data, that this is more complicated and complex than just a parent A versus parent B said this.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: And so I love that advice.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: And usually my kind of final pitch to the parents is like, you guys need to figure this out and take accountability.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: For the areas you've made missteps because the emotions are real.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's no parent alive that would be able to really regulate that without making some sort of mistake or misstep.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: And it's more about like how you repair that.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: And you can make missteps all the time.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: I do as a parent.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: I have three kids.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: I'm frequently apologizing and explaining, hey, like I could have handled that better.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I need a day to kind of come around to it.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: But you can do that with anything in a divorce situation.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Hey, I told you this.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I wasn't my best version of myself.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Here's how I'm going to do it differently moving forward.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: That is insight.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: That is growth.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: And then you generalize that to other skills, and that's even better.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: And and then if you're in a custody evaluation, they kind of think that you've addressed some of your problems, which as an attorney I love because then I get a report from someone like Robert that says, Mom or dad appears to have insight into what you know the issues that were caused and the position that they put the child in or whatever.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: And and it's clear that they are moving forward and that they've understood this and they're not doing that anymore.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Blah, blah, blah.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Is that Did you did you quote that out of one of my reports?
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the blah, blah, blah specifically.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: No, it's true.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: And and this is not just about snowing over the evaluator.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: Like we're gonna have a sense of that this is a theme or a pattern that this is a parent who continually takes accountability.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: And it will be evidenced across other data sources too, their counseling records, um, you know, their co-parenting communications.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: This is not just a matter of a parent checking off a box and saying these things.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: But if they truly are doing those behaviors, you will see the impact of the kid.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: And that's the real reward here is that, yeah, you may impress an evaluator or, you know, get a favorable outcome in family court.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: But the bottom line is if your kids are functioning in a healthy two-household dynamic, you've won.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: That is the high road I'm talking about.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: It's you've effectively kept your child out of the middle, which by the way, you can do on your end without any help from your co-parent, right?
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: Because you're setting that standard and you're teaching your kids what's appropriate and not.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: And yes, we have extreme cases with parental alienation and things where another parent may be uh really causing some damage, but there are still really clear things you can do on your side of the street that will have a positive impact on your child.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Don't take the low road.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and don't take the bait from the ex.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Totally just get you involved.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: So here's another question that comes up is um does age change the answer?
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Um so including adult children.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: So here's a couple.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Should you tell the children?
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: I think definitely, oh that was um I think Dr.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: DiCarlo's position is no.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: And before you do, I think that while you're telling him, and I disagree a bit, but it's definitely case specific.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: How does it okay?
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: This was I think that might have been Britney's response to somebody when they were saying um that you if when they're an adult, tell them.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: You don't have to tell them when they're kids, but when they're teenagers, tell them.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Um when they're adults for sure tell them.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: And that that was kind of interesting because if they're adults and out of the house already and trying to figure stuff out, and and especially if you have a close relationship.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: Like I have such a close relationship with my kids.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: And so if something just up and happened, they would be really questioning.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: I would hopefully just say, hey, you know, that kind of stuff.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: We're just we grew apart, whatever.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: I would I would come up with something.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: I don't want to blame anyone.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: But this person says, not while they're under 18, but then I'm saying, assuming they mean so after they're 18, you tell them everything.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: So what is your position on age?
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is one of those really nuanced points, and it's not a one size fits all.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: So there's no single age at which the answer automatically changes.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: So you have to think age and development and and and context.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: So young children are especially likely to think, as we talked about before, more concretely, they may be the ones more likely to blame themselves too, or believe they are somehow responsible for the repair in the family.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Compare that to teenagers who possess a lot more cognitive capacity, but they can also make uh that that same benefit can make them more vulnerable to uh like that moral polarization and pressure to choose sides.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: So they're gonna be more likely to kind of apply these different moral filters and kind of one side's bad, one side's good, and take those sort of polar opposites.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: But importantly, turning 18 or becoming an adult does not eliminate the parent-child relationship or the possibility of a loyalty conflict.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: In fact, I've seen that in cases where I have adult children who have left the home, but there are still minor children uh who are involved in the family court conflict.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: And it's really fascinating and um awful to see how these parents uh these adult children are also still impacted by their parents' ongoing conflict and competing narratives.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Um, these adult children, by the way, can still experience grief.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: They can experience destabilization and even like existential issues in their in their own relationships, um, and and really pressure to reorganize their entire family history and kind of like go back and revise their understanding of their parents in ways that might not always be great or based in fact or reality.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: Um, if an older adult child asks directly, um, an honest but bounded response is generally gonna be preferable to a lie.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Obviously, adults are gonna have more life experience.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: Uh, maybe they've been through their own, you know, few, you know, long-term relationships now and understand the complexities of adult relationships so they're more able to handle that information.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: But before voluntarily disclosing something historically that happened, particularly around an infidelity, um, I would ask yourself, what current need of the adult child does this serve?
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: And really challenging yourself, like, why do they need to know this?
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Um, but the position is is not never tell an adult child.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: It's, you know, adult status alone doesn't make every disclosure beneficial.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Uh so it's again one of those frustrating answers where it kind of depends.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: It really depends on the circumstance of the child, who they are, their personality, their temperament, and where they are in their stage of life.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: You know, one thing I've noticed in my cases, you know, there's a lot of what we call now the silver divorces, right?
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Or the gray divorces.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: All the all the old people are getting divorced now.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Um not that I mean they're like my age.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Uh but I've noticed that it appears as if a lot of the adult children really choose sides, like really, really choose sides.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: And it's almost like there's more alienation and alienator in the older, you know, the gray divorces.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: And um, are they great?
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: They're they're gray divorces.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I think they're gray divorces.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: Um, but I I think there's almost more alienation in that.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Would have you seen that?
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: Have you noticed?
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: I I don't even know if you that would come into your Yeah, it it hasn't even been on my radar, quite honestly.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, the cases where I've experienced it, it's usually in a um mediation or collaborative divorce scenario where the parents are uh older adults and they're divorcing and their children are all grown and settled.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: I do see how how what we would describe as alienating behaviors in in younger children still happen with adults, but it's with it's in the context of adult relationships.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: So there's more of a peer type uh relationship between the parent and the child now because again, they have more adult life experience.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: And and I would guess maybe that might make it even more polarizing because they can map their parents' experiences onto their own, and maybe even again, kind of do that revisionist history of like, that's why I'm the way I am.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: And, you know, I've I've even seen adult children take on tremendous amounts of guilt of like maybe they were struggling with their own thoughts or feelings of infidelity or sexual addiction, and then they find out a parent had an affair, and then suddenly it's the explanation for all of their problems, and and then they became very angry at that parent.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: So again, it's sort of a case-by-case situation.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen the literature on this, it's not even something that's, like I said, been on my radar, but I'm curious now.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me me too, because I I've seen it a lot.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: I see it's it's always uh well, let me say it this way.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I've had a case where there were adult children who didn't choose a side.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Um I'm sure I have, but maybe it's just the ones that stand out are the ones where um the kids become very protective over a parent.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: And oftentimes it's the mom.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: It's a mom who's been a stay-at-home mom for 30 years, and you know, dad leaves and finds someone younger, and um these kids are now huddled behind mom to um to protect her and to be there for her.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've seen that exact dynamic in multiple, you know, collaborative divorce cases that I do or mediation cases where again it's like older adults.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Um but I'm not aware of even any of the I I don't think it's in the parental alienation literature or parent-child contact problems, resist refuse dynamics.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: If it is, I'm just not aware and I probably should be, but I'd love to do a little bit more research and get back.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that'd be a neat one to do because it it it doesn't, I mean, it's it's not where it affects our world typically.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: Um, it does in mediations where they've got the ear of someone else, but it certainly doesn't for the best interest of the children, which is what we typically deal with.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: So this there's one question here.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: It says, I feel his statement was contradictory.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: On one hand, he scoffs at societal emphasis placed on infidelity as something more than other things that break down a marriage, which we kind of talked about.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: And then he says, um, disclosure of the infidelity to the children is so terrible, traumatizing that it shouldn't be done.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: Is it not as big of a deal as we make it out to be, or is it the huge deal that is traumatizing to the entire family?
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: So I I think he kind of went in two different places, but if you want to try and put that together.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as we've talked about, you know, infidelity can be profoundly serious without every form of disclosure being beneficial.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: So both of those things can be true.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: Um, there's two distinct, as I see, two distinct potential sources of harm.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: There's the underlying adult conduct, and then there's the way the child is subsequently brought into that conflict.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: And we spoke to this a little bit earlier.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Um, recognizing the possibility of harm of disclosure does not minimize the affair.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: And likewise, recognizing the seriousness of the affair does not establish that an unaware child should be told.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: The position is not infidelity, does not matter.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: Nobody's saying that.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Lotting, we talked about that in our previous podcast.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: I'm just re-emphasizing that here.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: It's not that it doesn't matter.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: It's a serious adult wrong shouldn't automatically be converted into a child's emotional burden.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: And I think that's where we saw the most um, I would say, controversy in the comments about that, you know, tell the children, don't tell the children, I need the truth out there.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: The children need the truth out there.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I I think again, where you kind of went on that one in that one area was sort of like um where you said, and I I'm not I can't remember the wording specifically, but it was like, it's interesting how we, you know, put more weight on.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: I think that might have been the same thing.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: And and I think maybe what I was trying to convey is that I mean, we as a society, we determine what is meaningful in relationships.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: So it's constructed together as part of our society, but that's also informed by our religion, our individual values, our our individual upbringings that may differ between families and households.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, one family's harm may be not the same as another's.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: I think what I was trying to communicate there is that one family may view infidelity as like the most egregious uh uh betrayal that anyone could have imagined ever and so harmful to the family.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: Another, I've worked with plenty of couples that are like, hey, like I get it.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: We were emotionally withdrawn from each other.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: Uh, it made perfect sense that you sought that out from somebody else.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: I don't love the way that made me feel, but let's work through it.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: Or alternatively, let's let's part ways here.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: And we can have an amicable friendship or co-parenting relationship, but here's the narrative we can tell the kids.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: So that would be an example of you know a value-based system that doesn't amplify or elevate, I should say, uh, infidelity to this, you know, the most destructive thing ever.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: And and maybe that same example, you know, somebody could have viewed the parent having uh an alcohol relapse because they were in recovery as way more egregious.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: And so that's the point I think I was trying to make.
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: And maybe it just wasn't clearly articulated.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I agree.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the hierarchy thing, right?
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Is it domestic violence here, and then uh um infidelity here, or are they switched, or and do each of those need to be told to the kids?
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: Do neither of them be need to be told?
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: So I think we as a, like you were saying, we as a society have chosen that infidelity is super bad, but we've also chosen that domestic violence is super bad.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: And then there's also addiction, sexual, drugs, alcohol.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: There's so many gambling, you know, all of those things cause.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so many gangs.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: Um, so there's one, and it's I I I just like how this person is sure that everyone who cheats is a narcissist.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: So it says most cheaters are narcissists who act like they're cheating was everyone else's fault except their own.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: And then uh there were some other comments in this area that sort of the children have the right to know who they can trust.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: If someone cheats and they get divorced, the blame falls on the person who cheated.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: And then the other comment is uh the second, uh, the second one parent badmouths the other parent, the respect level quickly deteriorates and can put the kid in a very sudden position of needing to pick sides.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: So that was sort of a person saying what you're saying after all of the emotion of the other people basically saying that uh that they're all narcissists or most of them are narcissists.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess my my thoughts on that one, you know narcissism gets thrown around a lot, right?
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: I I don't think there's ever been an evaluation or a a therapy case where somebody hasn't used that term in some capacity to describe what usually they mean as like, you know, a parent who's very self-focused and won't take accountability.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: But I want to be clear and narcissistic personality disorder as a clinical diagnosis is a very uh specific uh behavioral or mental health problem and it and it's defined by specific criteria.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: Um, just based on the base rates of personality disorders, it would be highly unlikely that every parent I encounter is a narcissist or borderline personality, right?
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't, it doesn't make sense statistically, even when accounting for the fact that a lot of folks who find themselves in these conflicts might have underlying personality disorders that are causing that conflict, right?
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: We could still control for that.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Um, so I think it's overly uh simplistic and it overly reduces the problem when parents throw a label on it.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: And and that also then implies blame, right?
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: If they're a narcissist, then uh then they're responsible.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: And the other party, by the way, is now completely absolved of any responsibility in an unhealthy relationship dynamic.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Um, and so, you know, you hear these terms, but I don't I discourage parents from kind of using them and as explanatory models for their co-parents' behaviors because sometimes they could be right.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: A lot of times they're not so right.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: And by the way, your co-parent probably has a term for you too.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: So it becomes competing uh non-professionals diagnosing with uh each other with uh with big big words.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: So um, you know, I just even on the forensic perspective, when we're doing like a forensic analysis, it doesn't begin and end with whether the information communicated to a child was technically true.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: What we're looking at again is what the child already knew, who initiated the discussion.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: Um, we talked earlier about the child's age and developmental capacity and the amount of type of information that was provided, the emotional tone and frequency of the discussions, um, whether the child was asked to agree, keep secrets, provide evidence, or or even comfort a parent, you know, that parentification and adultification that I referenced, or even reject the other parent, which could be, again, in the categories of like parental alienation.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: Um so technically truthful information can still be delivered in a psychologically harmful or a boundary, a way where it's like crossing boundaries.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: And conversely, a child's authentic anger after learning about infidelity does uh in of itself prove that the child was kosher alienated.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, asking a child to conceal an affair, involving the child in the relationship, using the child to retaliate, um, it's all independently relevant because it demonstrates a breakdown of adult child boundaries.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: So I'm looking at this as an evaluator or a mental health professional in those terms.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: I'm not looking at, you know, things like whether they're a narcissist necessarily, or whether the child has the right to know uh who they can trust, or um, you know, assigning blame or or or fault in this.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: Um, so those are my thoughts on that, Launi .
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: All right, Robert.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: So I I mean, I I think we're wrapping up here.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: I think we've got to a lot of the the big um the big comments.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: Now, no name-calling people.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Um, that's not nice.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: You we we are happy to address any questions, by the way.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: Any comments.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: Actually, this is kind of a fun one to do because it's um we are getting to work directly with the audience, and I think that's great.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: I think that's fun.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: Um Yeah, and I'd encourage comments, even questions, and we can address those in subsequent podcasts.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: I think this has been really valuable because again, these types of topics, they strike a nerve.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: And and they strike a nerve because it happens to real people, you know, and families fall apart over these things.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, we understand that we're here to help and and kind of support families in understanding these dynamics so they can make better decisions.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: And so so we were never saying that children should be lied to or gaslit or you know, prevented from discussing something that they actually already know.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: What we're saying is that there's a healthy way to have this dialogue.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Um and that an uh a child who's unaware of it um maybe doesn't need to know it and doesn't necessarily need to assign blame to a parent.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: The fact is there's a divorce or there's a split or whatever, and then and the parents aren't together.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: Um that could be for a thousand different reasons, and this one is one that just really seems to take take the most emotion or cause the most emotion in what we're seeing.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: Um but the goal is the same, you know, tell the tell the kids the truth that the child needs, like validate the child's experience and um, you know, keep the child out of the role as the investigator, judge, therapist.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: You don't need your child choosing sides.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: They have the same ability to love more than one person, just as you have the same ability to love, you know, your multiple kids.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: So let them love the other parent, even if that parent was a jerk to you.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: So um any other closing thoughts, Robert?
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: I think you summarized it perfectly.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: I'll just add that, you know, when you do the thing that keeps the kid out of the middle, those actions and behaviors often go unnoticed and unvalidated, except in the eyes of the child who's learning a very um specific set of behaviors from you, which is you're not going to stoop to anybody else's level and sling mud or direct blame and sort of uh teach a child that they should be looking for blame instead of you know other helpful values like forgiveness, understanding, compassion, problem solving, communication, moving forward, all of those things.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: So, Launi , thank you so much for bringing all these comments up.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: I think it's been a really great discussion and we look forward to more dialogue around it.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Robert.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I I agree.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: So for all those of you out there, please subscribe to our podcasts, like and follow us on social media, but really download the app.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: And if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: If you have specific issues like this, comment on our videos, send us uh direct messages.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: We can create podcasts and short videos addressing things where we're not specifically um you know advising you, legally advising you or becoming your psychologist.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: Like we're not gonna go there.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: But we can help, kind of like we did this.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: So if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to us.