Latest / This Week On ICE / The team tracking “ICE-free zones” across the United States

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The team tracking “ICE-free zones” across the United States · This Week On ICE

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[music]
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SPEAKER_00: Welcome to This Week On ICE for August 26, 2026.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm Matt Kendrick.
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SPEAKER_02: And I'm Kelly Kimball.
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SPEAKER_00: This week, we are all about visas.
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SPEAKER_00: In the coming weeks,
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SPEAKER_00: up to 200,000 people in the United States who received business or tourist visas and
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SPEAKER_00: then went on to file asylum claims after arriving in the country stand
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SPEAKER_00: to have their legal status revoked.
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SPEAKER_00: This is according to Dr.
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SPEAKER_00: Kelly will break down how state and DHS are justifying their plans.
0:45
SPEAKER_02: Then on Monday,
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SPEAKER_02: the White House announced that it was rolling out a plan to charge $103,000
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SPEAKER_02: for H-1B visas,
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SPEAKER_02: which are the primary way U.S.
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SPEAKER_02: companies can hire workers from abroad, especially in specialized roles.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: If you're having a bit of deja vu,
1:01
SPEAKER_02: that's because courts already struck down a previous attempt to charge six figures
1:05
SPEAKER_02: for the document.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: But the White House is insisting this plan is necessary to,
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SPEAKER_02: quote, recovering, end quote, the costs of immigration.
1:13
SPEAKER_02: Matt has the latest on the second bite at the Immigration Apple.
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SPEAKER_00: And after the break,
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SPEAKER_00: we'll sit down with Hannah Alexander,
1:20
SPEAKER_00: who's the Deputy Legal Director at Local Progress.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Her group created a network of local elected officials to advance social justice,
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SPEAKER_00: including coordinating and sharing best practices for protecting local communities
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SPEAKER_00: from the immigration crackdown.
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SPEAKER_00: She'll talk to us about the successful blueprints that many cities are creating
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SPEAKER_00: to fight against ICE enforcement and just stick with us to hear what has worked
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SPEAKER_00: and what hasn't.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean, her whole brand was, as you had mentioned, kindness, compassion, empathy...
2:15
SPEAKER_02: She had a foundation that gave away free books to children all over the country.
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SPEAKER_02: And to me, she did feel like a true American dream girl in every sense of the word.
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SPEAKER_00: And I mean, the woman wrote 9 to 5 and Jolene on the same afternoon.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we're losing.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: We're losing.
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SPEAKER_02: I heard it was Jolene and My Heart Will Go On.
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SPEAKER_02: It was.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: You're right.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: It was Jolene.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: I will always love you.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh, and I Will Always Love You.
2:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a different diva song.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
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SPEAKER_02: Jolene and I Will Always Love You wrote that in the same day.
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SPEAKER_00: Incredible.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Incredible.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, let's dive into it.
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SPEAKER_00: Kelly, we often hear rhetoric,
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SPEAKER_00: and we've talked about this a lot,
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SPEAKER_00: about migrants, like, quote,
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SPEAKER_00: doing things right or waiting in line if they want legal status
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SPEAKER_00: the United States.
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SPEAKER_00: And we talked about how that just doesn't really exist for most people around the world.
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SPEAKER_00: There's very few avenues that can get you into any line when it comes to attempting
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SPEAKER_00: to immigrate to the United States,
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SPEAKER_00: particularly if you are at risk of your life and want to file an asylum claim now.
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SPEAKER_00: So this decision to retroactively punish people Who actually got visas to visit
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SPEAKER_00: the country and then filed asylum claims, which I will point out is legal.
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SPEAKER_00: It's really alarming.
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SPEAKER_00: So what's the latest on this story?
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SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: And we could probably have a whole podcast episode on the unfounded and kind
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SPEAKER_02: of baseless idea of getting in line, doing things the right way.
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SPEAKER_02: These are loaded, loaded statements that are really fed and undergirded by misinformation.
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SPEAKER_02: But that is not the episode that we're talking about.
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SPEAKER_02: Any foreigner who applied for a B-1 or B-2 visa,
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SPEAKER_02: B-1 being a business visa,
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SPEAKER_02: B-2 being a tourist visa,
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SPEAKER_02: anywhere from 2016 to 2026,
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SPEAKER_02: their current immigration status may run the risk of being revoked if you apply
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SPEAKER_02: for asylum thereafter.
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SPEAKER_02: And as we mentioned at the top of the show,
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SPEAKER_02: this is going to affect up to 200,000 people,
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SPEAKER_02: which DHS themselves did not come out with that number.
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SPEAKER_02: It was the Associated Press that went back and looked at the data and the documents
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SPEAKER_02: from DHS and USCIS to find out how many people this would impact.
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SPEAKER_02: And this would be A history-breaking number of visas revoked,
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SPEAKER_02: the largest number of visa revocations in U.S. history if it were to happen.
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SPEAKER_02: But what I found really interesting is like what they're claiming this is because of, right?
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SPEAKER_02: So in a post on ICE,
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SPEAKER_02: Deputy Secretary of State Christopher Landau called this route of,
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SPEAKER_02: you know, getting a B-1 or a B-2 visa and then potentially applying for asylum.
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SPEAKER_02: He called that a, quote, bogus asylum claim.
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SPEAKER_02: And what I find particularly interesting about this news moment right now is
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SPEAKER_02: that you can legally apply for asylum with a B1 and a B2.
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SPEAKER_02: It even says on the USCIS website itself,
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SPEAKER_02: any person who is physically present in the United States may request and apply
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SPEAKER_02: for asylum,
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SPEAKER_02: regardless of their current immigration status or non-immigrant visa status.
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SPEAKER_02: When you say it's a bogus asylum claim, you're trying to fracture the idea of Yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00: Many people who did manage to defect from behind the Iron Curtain or
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SPEAKER_00: from other totalitarian regimes were able to do so on tourist visas and came to
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SPEAKER_00: the United States.
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SPEAKER_00: And there was no problem with it then,
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SPEAKER_00: because sometimes you have to hide from your own regime that you want to leave
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SPEAKER_00: the country, right?
5:56
SPEAKER_00: There are reasons to go through this route that involve the person in question's safety.
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SPEAKER_00: So my question is,
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SPEAKER_00: is it even legal,
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SPEAKER_00: given what you just said about The law governing who can apply for asylum status,
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SPEAKER_00: is this even legal to revoke the visas and asylum status of all these people?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: the quick answer is no,
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SPEAKER_02: but the more complicated answer is just like Trump's idea
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SPEAKER_02: to revoke birthright citizenship,
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SPEAKER_02: the Trump administration is going to face a mountain of legal challenges
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SPEAKER_02: against this rule, right?
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SPEAKER_02: And I think it really is on par with the blueprint that we have seen
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SPEAKER_02: in this administration, right?
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SPEAKER_02: Like we saw with birthright citizenship.
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SPEAKER_02: The Trump administration likes to hit the public
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SPEAKER_02: with something outrageous like revoking B1,
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SPEAKER_02: B2 visas for those who have claimed asylum in the last 10 years.
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SPEAKER_02: They drag it through the courts.
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SPEAKER_02: They lose terribly.
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SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, they embolden.
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SPEAKER_02: DHS officials claim that the visa revocation process will not result in immediate deportation.
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SPEAKER_02: So they're not about to immediately deport up to 200,000 people.
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SPEAKER_02: But that is one DHS spokesperson.
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SPEAKER_02: And as we have seen historically with this administration,
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SPEAKER_02: you can't necessarily trust a spokesperson as far as you can throw them.
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SPEAKER_02: So right now, the legal challenges will absolutely mount.
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SPEAKER_02: What may happen to the people affected by this revocation process, it will not be swift.
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SPEAKER_02: It's still up in the air and up to question,
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SPEAKER_02: but we're going to be watching it pretty closely here.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, 200,000 people, that's not going to go away quickly.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: My big question,
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SPEAKER_00: and I don't think we have any clarity on this,
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SPEAKER_00: but please tell me if we do,
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SPEAKER_00: is let's say you came in 2016 on a B-2 visa,
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SPEAKER_00: you apply for asylum,
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SPEAKER_00: your asylum claim gets processed,
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SPEAKER_00: or maybe you marry someone while you're in the U.S.
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SPEAKER_00: and now you have family in the U.S. Maybe you've become a U.S. citizen.
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SPEAKER_00: Are they going to denaturalize you?
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SPEAKER_00: Is this a back avenue to reopening that conversation that we've talked about a lot?
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SPEAKER_00: What's the endgame?
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SPEAKER_00: What are they trying to do here?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it appears as though the Trump administration's ultimate goal is
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SPEAKER_02: to make asylum virtually impossible to obtain.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: Right.
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SPEAKER_02: I think he has tried to antagonize asylum.
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SPEAKER_02: He has tried to fray.
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SPEAKER_02: And that's simply not true.
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SPEAKER_02: As many may know,
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SPEAKER_02: there are three main ways that one can qualify for permanent residency or U.S.
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SPEAKER_02: citizenship in this country through family sponsorship,
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SPEAKER_02: through employment or through humanitarian protections such as asylum.
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SPEAKER_02: And this third bucket,
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SPEAKER_02: this bucket of humanitarian protections,
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SPEAKER_02: we've seen again and again throughout this administration.
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SPEAKER_02: Right.
9:07
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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SPEAKER_02: It takes 16 months for your case to even get to a judge and then another six years
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SPEAKER_02: to get a decision on it.
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SPEAKER_02: A little over a million people that applied for asylum in January by January 2026
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SPEAKER_02: over the last year.
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SPEAKER_02: And they only let in a few tens of thousands of people in the asylum process.
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SPEAKER_02: There is a backlog.
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SPEAKER_02: That backlog is true.
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SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't make the asylum process any less lax or rigorous, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's also an element here of trying to merge the ideas
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SPEAKER_00: of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants in the minds of the public and trying
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SPEAKER_00: to say that these are the same things, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Which I think then gets to a more visceral point of like, That's right.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not a South Africa expert.
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SPEAKER_00: I know there have been people killed on their farms,
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SPEAKER_00: but I doubt that white South Africans are the most victimized people in
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SPEAKER_00: the world here.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: There is a racialized element to this.
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SPEAKER_00: I wanted to emphasize that.
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SPEAKER_00: Is there anywhere else we're seeing similar visa crackdowns?
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SPEAKER_00: Has this been tried in other countries or in other categories of migrants to the U.S.?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_02: We're seeing a real crackdown on another of the three main kind
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SPEAKER_02: of buckets I identified earlier,
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SPEAKER_02: like the three main ways to get Permanent Residency or U.S.
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SPEAKER_02: Citizenship, and that is through employment.
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SPEAKER_02: Earlier this month,
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SPEAKER_02: the State Department said that it will vet the social media accounts
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SPEAKER_02: of foreign journalists applying for visas to work in the United States.
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SPEAKER_02: If they don't like what they see, that visa will be denied.
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SPEAKER_02: Right.
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SPEAKER_02: And then next week, we're going to welcome John Sluice of the News Guild onto our show.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'm not going to touch on that too much,
11:29
SPEAKER_02: but we're going to discuss a lawsuit against DHS that they are wielding
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SPEAKER_02: that challenges a new visa rule affecting foreign journalists that work in
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SPEAKER_02: the United States now.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Also, people who have spoken out publicly against U.S.
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SPEAKER_02: policies, especially policies about the Middle East.
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SPEAKER_02: They have revoked visas of people in that regard.
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SPEAKER_02: And then the administration has also moved to crack down on so-called birth tourism.
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SPEAKER_02: And I use that knowing that it is a racially charged phrase.
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SPEAKER_02: It's a very racist term.
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SPEAKER_02: The administration only seems to use that term on people of color and not white people.
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SPEAKER_02: The concept of birth tourism is basically...
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SPEAKER_02: If you are pregnant and come to this country and then give birth in this country,
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SPEAKER_02: your child then benefits from birthright citizenship in the United States.
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SPEAKER_02: So Trump lost the fight at the U.S. Supreme Court on birthright citizenship.
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SPEAKER_02: Now he's going after the concept of birth tourism,
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SPEAKER_02: which is racist from the jump,
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SPEAKER_02: but also something that is exceptionally rare in this country.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to emphasize this point about disagreeing with policy.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: There's two things that came up for me at this.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: One is we have already seen people like Mahmoud Khalil in Colombia,
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SPEAKER_00: Rumesa Uzturk in Tufts up These are two very high-profile cases of people
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SPEAKER_00: on student visas who were facing immigration and customs enforcement because
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SPEAKER_00: of their outspoken stances on Gaza.
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SPEAKER_00: And that flows into my second point, which is...
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SPEAKER_00: about the restriction of visas for foreign journalists.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: There's a little bit of nuance there because, of course, journalism is work.
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SPEAKER_00: And in order to work in the United States and earn money here,
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SPEAKER_00: you have to have the right visa or the right legal status to do that.
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SPEAKER_00: But as our guest Adam Rose last week pointed out,
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SPEAKER_00: Once you're in the United States,
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SPEAKER_00: all of the rights in the Constitution apply to you.
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SPEAKER_00: So even if you're an undocumented person,
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SPEAKER_00: you cannot,
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SPEAKER_00: you are constitutionally protected in your free speech and in your ability to write
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SPEAKER_00: and publish whatever you want.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we have to move on to yet another visa story.
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SPEAKER_02: The other big visa story this week has to do with the famous H-1B visa.
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SPEAKER_02: So, Matt, over to you.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: Can you remind us what they are and why the Trump administration is going after them?
14:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: So H-1B visas are kind of like a golden ticket to work in the United States.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: They only have 65,000 slots per year,
14:39
SPEAKER_00: plus another 20,000 for graduates of US universities who are not US citizens.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: And these essentially give you the right to work in the US and live in the US full time.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: And For a textbook example,
14:53
SPEAKER_00: let's say you're a really brilliant engineer in India and you graduate from IIT,
14:58
SPEAKER_00: one of the best universities in India,
15:00
SPEAKER_00: and you have AI engineering skills that are hard to find in the United States.
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SPEAKER_00: Historically,
15:06
SPEAKER_00: the tech industry would be really interested in finding those engineers,
15:09
SPEAKER_00: bringing them to the U.S.,
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SPEAKER_00: hiring them, and then they profit from this person's advanced skills.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: The person,
15:16
SPEAKER_00: of course,
15:16
SPEAKER_00: has the opportunity to do this work that they are extremely qualified for.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: And so these H-1B visas are kind of work visas that usually there's a lot
15:24
SPEAKER_00: of restrictions around them.
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SPEAKER_00: You have to be renewed every three years.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: There is already a fee.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: I think it's about $3,000 that you have to pay to get one.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: The employer has to pay to get one.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: But that's sort of pro forma.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: These visas are supposed to help U.S.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: companies and the U.S.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: economy thrive by bringing the smartest and most qualified people from all around
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SPEAKER_00: the world to work in the United States with our really enviable wages,
15:50
SPEAKER_00: our often enviable work benefits.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: I think Europeans wouldn't find them that enviable, but for a lot of people, it's not bad.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Why the Trump administration is going after them, I think, is Yeah.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: I honestly think that's ridiculous.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: Like an H-1B visa to be a really, really advanced engineer, a scientist, something like that.
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SPEAKER_00: You can't just train someone to do that in a couple of years.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: It's going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and set back the timeline before
16:40
SPEAKER_00: that person becomes productive.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: Regardless,
16:42
SPEAKER_00: I think it is this sort of economic nationalism,
16:46
SPEAKER_00: the same thinking behind tariffs,
16:48
SPEAKER_00: the same thinking behind bullying our allies and sucking up
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SPEAKER_00: to totalitarian regimes around the world.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: Vice President J.D.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: Vance, who said in a post on Exxon Monday, quote,
16:59
SPEAKER_00: if an American corporation needs workers,
17:01
SPEAKER_00: it should hire and train Americans, end quote.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: That's the point.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: And so this $103,000 ticket item, where does that number come from?
17:13
SPEAKER_00: The exact amount that they want to charge is $103,265 as a fee.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: And basically,
17:21
SPEAKER_00: like you said in the intro,
17:23
SPEAKER_00: the administration says that that will offset the quote unquote costs of running
17:27
SPEAKER_00: a migration system.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Our friend of the show,
17:29
SPEAKER_00: David Beer,
17:31
SPEAKER_00: over at the Cato Institute,
17:32
SPEAKER_00: the very first interview we did for this show showed that How ridiculous a statement
17:36
SPEAKER_00: that is.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: How much more immigrants add to the GDP of the United States,
17:42
SPEAKER_00: add to the economy of the United States.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: We're talking trillions and trillions of dollars over the course of the period
17:48
SPEAKER_00: that his study looked at.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: And on top of that, this policy specifically targets the most productive people.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: We're not talking about,
17:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:57
SPEAKER_00: folks building houses,
17:58
SPEAKER_00: which is incredibly important, incredibly necessary, can be lucrative for folks.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about people, again,
18:04
SPEAKER_00: designing frontier breaking edge technology that helps the U.S.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: stay the most competitive economy in the world.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: If you're thinking about this as like college sport teams,
18:13
SPEAKER_00: you're ruling out your best possible recruits.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: But you asked about the fee.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: The short answer is that President Trump likes big numbers.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: He thinks $100,000, that's like a big round number.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: He says this will generate approximately $8.8 billion in revenue.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: They're just taking that $100,000.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Matt.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: We're going to take a quick break and sit down with Hannah Alexander,
18:58
SPEAKER_02: who is the deputy legal director at Local Progress,
19:01
SPEAKER_02: to hear about her work organizing
19:03
SPEAKER_02: and supporting local elected officials amid this immigration crackdown.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: Stick with us.
19:14
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19:14
SPEAKER_02: Kelly here.
19:15
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SPEAKER_00: Thank you again.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to This Week On ICE.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm here with Hannah Alexander, who is the Deputy Legal Director at Local Progress.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: Local Progress is a vast network of elected officials,
20:33
SPEAKER_02: from mayors and district attorneys to county commissioners,
20:36
SPEAKER_02: city council members,
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20:41
SPEAKER_02: D.C., all working to advance racial and economic justice.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: With ICE arrests surging since July and thousands
20:49
SPEAKER_02: of people being arrested every day,
20:51
SPEAKER_02: Hannah and her team have been closely tracking what elected officials
20:55
SPEAKER_02: and community members across the country are doing to protect their communities.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: So Hannah is going to walk us through what local progress has been seeing.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: So the specific steps cities are taking to respond to ICE,
21:07
SPEAKER_02: how elected officials and communities are working together,
21:10
SPEAKER_02: and what all this means for immigrants on the ground.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: Hannah, welcome to the show.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Kelly.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: So you're seeing several cities and counties take proactive steps
21:22
SPEAKER_02: to limit their involvement with federal immigration enforcement.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: So things like ICE-free zones to non-cooperation policies and restrictions
21:31
SPEAKER_02: on detention infrastructure.
21:33
SPEAKER_02: So all that in mind,
21:34
SPEAKER_02: what do you see as this bigger national movement behind all
21:38
SPEAKER_02: of these different local actions?
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
21:41
SPEAKER_01: I think this is the manifestation of communities and their elected leaders saying
21:45
SPEAKER_01: that they do not support the Trump administration's mass deportation agenda.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: And thinking very critically about their local infrastructure and their local power,
21:55
SPEAKER_01: wondering how can we ensure no local infrastructure is used for that agenda
22:00
SPEAKER_01: and what local power do they have to protect their residents?
22:05
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: And I would love for you to dive into some of the specific actions,
22:10
SPEAKER_02: the specific laws or policies that cities across the country are taking,
22:15
SPEAKER_02: some of these case studies.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: And also, if you can more precisely describe what is an ice-free zone.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: So...
22:23
SPEAKER_01: ICE-free zones have been really popular.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Essentially,
22:26
SPEAKER_01: it's a policy that prohibits federal immigration enforcement agencies
22:29
SPEAKER_01: from using municipal, county,
22:32
SPEAKER_01: or school district-owned or controlled property as a staging area,
22:36
SPEAKER_01: processing location or operations base.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson over the summer of last year did,
22:44
SPEAKER_01: via executive order, an ICE-free zone policy.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: That made sure that City of Chicago properties such as,
22:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:52
SPEAKER_01: a parking garage or a lot that maybe sometimes stores vehicles isn't being taken
22:58
SPEAKER_01: over by ICE and used to harm their residents.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: A key part of this policy and what makes it,
23:03
SPEAKER_01: I think,
23:04
SPEAKER_01: more than just government
23:06
SPEAKER_01: that really empowers community members is including education
23:10
SPEAKER_01: and sometimes free materials for community members so
23:13
SPEAKER_01: that they can create their own ICE-free zones on the property that they own.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: It is a good showing of community values and alignment that we do not want ICE
23:22
SPEAKER_01: in our community.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: They do not make us safe.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: And then also it provides information to folks about their rights,
23:29
SPEAKER_01: that you don't have to let ICE into non-public parts of buildings without a warrant,
23:36
SPEAKER_01: specifically a signed judicial warrant, not an ICE warrant.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: So this has been really useful in many jurisdictions for people Building
23:45
SPEAKER_01: that community power and alignment specifically.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: Some of the other policies we've seen in blocking new detention infrastructure.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: I know at the end of last year,
23:59
SPEAKER_01: beginning of this year,
24:01
SPEAKER_01: there was a lot of talk about the Trump administration's efforts
24:04
SPEAKER_01: to convert warehouses into detention centers,
24:07
SPEAKER_01: creating spaces to store people in very unsafe places.
24:13
SPEAKER_01: So
24:18
SPEAKER_01: lot of jurisdictions are really concerned about that.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: And then similarly,
24:24
SPEAKER_01: there's a focus on,
24:26
SPEAKER_01: again, how is the local infrastructure being used to support ICE's aims?
24:43
SPEAKER_01: House ICE detainees in that facility.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: We know that when there is more jail capacity,
24:52
SPEAKER_01: more bed space, you're going to see more enforcement activity in your community.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: I think some people are concerned that, oh no,
24:59
SPEAKER_01: if we don't lease space to ICE or we don't let them have a detention center here,
25:05
SPEAKER_01: we will experience retaliation or it's going to be more inconvenient for families
25:09
SPEAKER_01: and lawyers.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: But the reality is that Based on research done by
25:15
SPEAKER_01: the Immigration Legal Resource Center,
25:17
SPEAKER_01: ILRC, that the capacity in your community dictates enforcement.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: So if you want to protect your community from the horrific types of ICE patrolling
25:30
SPEAKER_01: through your communities,
25:31
SPEAKER_01: abducting folks,
25:32
SPEAKER_01: you should make sure you don't have ICE using your local infrastructure
25:37
SPEAKER_01: to house people.
25:39
SPEAKER_02: I love what you just said there.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: The capacity in your community dictates enforcement.
25:43
SPEAKER_02: One of my favorite examples that your team identified for me was this case study
25:48
SPEAKER_02: in Lehigh County, Pennsylvania.
25:50
SPEAKER_02: They banned ICE agents from using all county-owned property as staging areas
25:56
SPEAKER_02: or operational bases for immigration enforcement.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: And so your team at Local Progress is really identifying
26:02
SPEAKER_02: and even helping these local officials identify where the capacity is and where
26:07
SPEAKER_02: that capacity can kind of You can hold the line as to whether
26:10
SPEAKER_02: or not ICE can actually occupy those spaces.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: Really, really interesting.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: Another major area you're tracking is this relationship between local law enforcement and ICE.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: So it's this thing called the 287G agreement.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: And folks who have listened to our podcast, you hear us talk about this at length.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: And we're going to link a few of our previous conversations in our newsletter
26:31
SPEAKER_02: for those who are still new to the show.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to the 287G agreement,
26:36
SPEAKER_02: which is basically a way that enables cooperation between local law enforcement
26:40
SPEAKER_02: and ICE, what are you seeing cities change about that relationship right now?
26:45
SPEAKER_02: And what difference can those local decisions make for immigrants in those cities?
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the 287G agreement is considered by the Trump administration a force multiplier.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: It trains your local law enforcement or your state law enforcement to act as ICE agents.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: There are a few different models that have different levels of harm.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Those are the warrant service officer model,
27:12
SPEAKER_01: which is the least harmful,
27:15
SPEAKER_01: the jail enforcement model, and that's kind of the mid-range.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: And then the most harmful is the task force model where you will
27:23
SPEAKER_01: then have your local or state law enforcement able to go up to people
27:26
SPEAKER_01: that they suspect of being immigrants, which involves racial profiling.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: And asking folks about their immigration status.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: This program has existed since the 90s,
27:37
SPEAKER_01: but what's unique about it in this era is that
27:42
SPEAKER_01: the Trump administration is really relying on it.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: And because of the massive,
27:46
SPEAKER_01: massive cuts in taxes,
27:48
SPEAKER_01: but also cutting food assistance and healthcare through
27:53
SPEAKER_01: the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, There is a lot of funding now for this program.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: Traditionally, it's been on the local law enforcement's dime to run around and be an ICE agent.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: But now the Trump administration is really incentivizing folks to enter into this agreement.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: Additionally,
28:13
SPEAKER_01: there are states that are very aligned with the Trump administration
28:18
SPEAKER_01: that are requiring counties to enter into 287G agreements.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: There's a state law in Florida that does that.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: And then in the great state of Texas where I live, Senate Bill 8 does require that as well.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of places right now are trying to figure that out in Texas because
28:37
SPEAKER_01: the law goes into effect in December.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: There is robust advocacy effort to try to ensure that although counties have
28:47
SPEAKER_01: to do this under state law,
28:49
SPEAKER_01: that they are choosing the model,
28:51
SPEAKER_01: the warrant service officer model,
28:53
SPEAKER_01: Because it is at least harmful and trying to get the fewest number
28:57
SPEAKER_01: of officers deputized.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: Because we know this just won't actually do anything to keep our community safe,
29:03
SPEAKER_01: which just is to provide,
29:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:07
SPEAKER_01: fear and enhance the Trump administration's even,
29:11
SPEAKER_01: you know, effectiveness on the ground in our communities.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: In a previous episode at This Week On ICE,
29:16
SPEAKER_02: Matt and I talked about another further incentive that ICE
29:19
SPEAKER_02: or DHS is offering local law enforcement that I'm sure you're also aware of, Hannah.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: They're offering money for insurance in the event of a civil lawsuit.
29:28
SPEAKER_02: So if you...
29:29
SPEAKER_02: If they sue an officer or a law enforcement agency because of a wrongful arrest or
29:35
SPEAKER_02: an arrest that infringes on the rights of the person that they arrested,
29:39
SPEAKER_02: ICE and DHS are making sure that officers and law enforcement agencies have hundreds
29:43
SPEAKER_02: of thousands of dollars in insurance,
29:45
SPEAKER_02: which is further incentive for them to assist in immigration enforcement arrests.
29:50
SPEAKER_02: We will also link that conversation in our newsletter as well.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious if people look at Operation Metro Surge,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: look at the Twin Cities and be like,
30:03
SPEAKER_01: you know what, I do want those folks training my local law enforcement at all.
30:23
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about surveillance.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: I think flock cameras are kind of at the top of every headline in the news right now.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: Some local governments are rejecting surveillance technologies like automated
30:34
SPEAKER_02: license plate readers.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: Why has surveillance become part of the immigration enforcement fight?
30:40
SPEAKER_02: And what should people understand about the connection between ICE enforcement
30:45
SPEAKER_02: and something like an ALPR contract?
30:47
SPEAKER_02: And for those not familiar,
30:49
SPEAKER_02: that's basically an agreement between a local law enforcement or
30:51
SPEAKER_02: a police department.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: And a surveillance technology vendor like Flock.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: I am really glad that people are taking notice of Flock and other ALTR vendors such
31:04
SPEAKER_01: as Axon and are being more aware of surveillance tech in general.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: I know last week was a national week of action related to Flock and ALTRs.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: And so there were lots of community events all over the US, including in where I live in Austin.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think part of this awareness is related to immigration,
31:27
SPEAKER_01: and I'll talk about that first,
31:29
SPEAKER_01: but then also people are recognizing the harms in other contexts
31:33
SPEAKER_01: and just generally like, do we really want to be surveilled?
31:38
SPEAKER_01: As it relates to immigration,
31:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:40
SPEAKER_01: I think people talk a lot about the arrest to deportation pipeline,
31:43
SPEAKER_01: but I like to really think of it as surveillance to arrest to detention
31:48
SPEAKER_01: to deportation pipeline.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: The interaction That leads to someone being deported is not just an arrest.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: It's a surveillance.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: It is a tool that is being used to trap people.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: In automatic license plate readers is a bit of a misnomer.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: It's not just capturing a license plate, capturing a lot of details about the car.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Because this data is searchable by officers in one jurisdiction of the data set in
32:15
SPEAKER_01: a completely different jurisdiction,
32:16
SPEAKER_01: people are recognizing the harm and that They're seeing now
32:21
SPEAKER_01: that unfortunately guardrails don't work.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Oversight is not going to protect either, that it continuously gets misused.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: And the data is vulnerable to being leaked.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Local law enforcement are inappropriately using it themselves.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: I think there's been quite a few stories
32:40
SPEAKER_01: about officers stalking their exes using it,
32:43
SPEAKER_01: let alone ICE having access to this technology and using it to find People
32:49
SPEAKER_01: who are particularly vulnerable in their communities.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: Additionally,
32:53
SPEAKER_01: on the non-immigration front,
32:57
SPEAKER_01: people are concerned about,
32:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:00
SPEAKER_01: here in Texas,
33:01
SPEAKER_01: there was a woman who sought a lawful abortion in another state
33:05
SPEAKER_01: and her movements were tracked by multiple cameras by an officer here in Texas.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: That is deeply concerning to many people.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people are also just not okay with this private company having
33:23
SPEAKER_01: so much data about us, or even the government having so much data about us.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: We know that safety isn't going to come through surveillance.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: It makes people surveilled,
33:34
SPEAKER_01: but it doesn't necessarily fix the underlying conditions that cause crime.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: And so when it comes to these flock cameras and surveillance,
33:45
SPEAKER_02: it really touches a lot of different topics,
33:48
SPEAKER_02: subject matters,
33:48
SPEAKER_02: like you had mentioned here with this woman seeking illegal abortion,
33:51
SPEAKER_02: officers using the technology to stalk exes.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: When it comes to the immigration topic specifically and immigration enforcement,
33:59
SPEAKER_02: Are we kind of at the beginning of this,
34:01
SPEAKER_02: like it's too soon to tell how it's being used or is it being used pervasively
34:05
SPEAKER_02: and it's a bit of a black box right now?
34:07
SPEAKER_02: What shape is it taking at this time with surveillance and immigration enforcement?
34:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think we are seeing ICE access either directly the data that Flock
34:18
SPEAKER_01: or other surveillance tech vendors have and,
34:23
SPEAKER_01: you know, use it to find people that they have administrative warrants for.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Alternatively, You know, law enforcement knows law enforcement.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: So even if you banned ICE from accessing it,
34:35
SPEAKER_01: they could very easily just call their buddy at your local police department
34:39
SPEAKER_01: and be like, hey, can you look up this for me, please?
34:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: So, you know,
34:46
SPEAKER_01: we are seeing it as a useful tool for
34:51
SPEAKER_01: ICE and other immigration enforcement agencies
34:55
SPEAKER_01: to sign people that they want to abduct.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: I think it's, you know, it's being used everywhere, not just in sanctuary cities.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: I think some people might argue that,
35:09
SPEAKER_01: oh, you know, because they don't have access to jails, they're using it.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: But I think there's good indication even in jurisdictions that are very cooperative
35:18
SPEAKER_01: with ICE that ICE is still using this technology to find people
35:23
SPEAKER_01: and do street Stopped,
35:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:27
SPEAKER_01: pulling people over because of a broken taillight or having two tinted windows
35:33
SPEAKER_01: that should be the lighter tint.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: Stuff like that.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: And obviously this is really devastating.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to get a sense of the types of cities that you are tracking that are trying
35:45
SPEAKER_02: to create these ice-free zones and also create a series of policies and laws
35:49
SPEAKER_02: to Yeah, I mean, as far as ice-free zones,
36:19
SPEAKER_01: Talked about Chicago's executive order,
36:22
SPEAKER_01: but Alameda County in California has done an awesome job.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: One of our members there pushed this forward and also,
36:29
SPEAKER_01: you know, recognized that safety is not just in your own county.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: And she worked hard to connect with folks in the region and other parts of the state
36:40
SPEAKER_01: of California to ensure that they had the information they needed
36:43
SPEAKER_01: to do similar policies of their own.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Her name is Nikki Fortunato Bass.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: I also want to highlight on the ALTR front, Austin, Texas, where I live.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: We are the largest city that has canceled our contracts.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: And that has been through really robust public education and organizing.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: There have been groups and a whole coalition that's been canvassing.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: Knocking on doors and sharing information about it.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
37:14
SPEAKER_01: I think the conversations tend to be really easy
37:16
SPEAKER_01: because people don't like mass surgery alerts and don't want to be surveilled.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: It continues to be a site, right?
37:23
SPEAKER_01: That, you know,
37:24
SPEAKER_01: this is a technology that certain people really want and rely on
37:30
SPEAKER_01: and may not have schlock here,
37:35
SPEAKER_01: but could very easily come back with a new And I also think,
37:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:42
SPEAKER_01: in Austin,
37:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm seeing more education around surveillance tech in general that,
37:46
SPEAKER_01: for example, body-worn cameras are a type of surveillance tech.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, they've done very little to prevent police violence.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: Or in the case of ICE,
37:55
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people are like, well, ICE isn't even wearing body-worn cameras.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: But realistically,
37:59
SPEAKER_01: it wouldn't actually change their behavior that much based
38:02
SPEAKER_01: on how we've seen it not really affect local police's behavior.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: Folks are getting concerned about drones.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: At the Austin Flock Walk,
38:14
SPEAKER_01: a state trooper drone followed the group around and surveilled them
38:18
SPEAKER_01: while they were talking about mass surveillance.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: I think that's just like a really good fight to highlight.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
38:26
SPEAKER_01: there's been great community involvement,
38:28
SPEAKER_01: a very broad coalition ranging from Democratic Socialist America
38:34
SPEAKER_01: the Libertarian Party of Travis County.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: To reproductive rights organizations, to policing reform groups.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: So it is a very broadly popular issue.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think that community collaboration and organizing is what led to
38:52
SPEAKER_01: the victory here in Austin and continues to prevent a contract from coming back
38:58
SPEAKER_01: to council quite a bit.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: It's funny that you mentioned Alameda County.
39:03
SPEAKER_02: That's actually where I'm from.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: So what are the odds?
39:05
SPEAKER_02: Good to know that my roots are taking good care of their community.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: And so the through line between these two examples here seems to be an intersectional fight.
39:14
SPEAKER_02: So folks that are in favor of reproductive rights are also folks that are working
39:19
SPEAKER_02: with people that are against surveillance.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: But also education seems to be the root of success when you educate and make aware
39:26
SPEAKER_02: of The impact and issues of,
39:28
SPEAKER_02: for example,
39:29
SPEAKER_02: surveillance and assisting immigration enforcement,
39:32
SPEAKER_02: you can actually create a tidal wave in the direction of progress
39:35
SPEAKER_02: and positive change.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, what would you say?
39:39
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: And so what would you say to a local elected official who wants
39:44
SPEAKER_02: to protect their community but is unsure what they can realistically do in the face
39:49
SPEAKER_02: of federal immigration enforcement?
39:51
SPEAKER_02: And this is particularly keen given that midterm elections are coming up soon.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I would say join local progress.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: We are here to support you and also to recognize that you have power.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: I think oftentimes the federal government seems all powerful,
40:08
SPEAKER_01: but local power is important and that you have power that you can wield.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: And so I would encourage any local elected official out here or someone
40:16
SPEAKER_01: who knows elected official to encourage them to join local progress.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: And then also recognize that you're not doing it alone.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: As a local elected official, You should be talking to people.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: You should be talking to immigrant rights organizations.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: You should be talking to community groups and getting a sense of what they want
40:33
SPEAKER_01: and what they need and also asking them for help, right?
40:36
SPEAKER_01: Like if you as a local elected official are against surveillance tech of some kind,
40:42
SPEAKER_01: but you need help on your body, get your community, you know, educate them, right?
40:47
SPEAKER_01: But then also get them to contact your colleagues.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: Get them to do direct actions.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: Get them to show up and show that this isn't what they want and
40:57
SPEAKER_01: that their voices should be heard.
41:01
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: Hannah, where can folks listening to this podcast track your work and the work
41:06
SPEAKER_02: of Local Progress?
41:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I would encourage anyone to visit our website.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: We have a lot of resources on there.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we are a network of local elected officials,
41:17
SPEAKER_01: but, you know, Happy for other people to use our resources.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: On social media, we are primarily at Local Progress.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: However, for Instagram, we're at Local Progress Network.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: Hannah, thank you so much for your time.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, Matt and I look forward to tracking your work and that of Local Progress.
41:41
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, thank you for hopping on the show.
41:43
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Kelly.
41:44
SPEAKER_02: It's been a pleasure.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us, Hannah.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: I hope you all really enjoyed that.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: That's it for us this week.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: As always, be safe, look out for your neighbors, and we'll see you next time.