Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SICK CLAIMS: 19 KIDS AND COUNTING STAR JOSEPH DUGGAR ARRESTED AFTER CLAIMS HE ABUSED GIRL,9, ON VACATION TER

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SICK CLAIMS: 19 KIDS AND COUNTING STAR JOSEPH DUGGAR ARRESTED AFTER CLAIMS HE ABUSED GIRL,9, ON VACATION TER · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It's Saturday night, and you
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  Speaker 1: know what that means. It's time for a Saturday Night special.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about a cheap gun you get
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  Speaker 1: at the corner gun shop. I'm talking about sick accusations.
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  Speaker 1: The Nineteen Kids and Counting star Joseph Duger arrested on
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  Speaker 1: claims he sex abused a little girl just nine years
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  Speaker 1: old on a Florida vacation. Now, hold on, you heard
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  Speaker 1: me right, that's Joseph Duger. Remember the brother Josh, was
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  Speaker 1: convicted of possessing child sex abuse images back in twenty
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  Speaker 1: twenty one. What is it with this family? I'm Nancy Grace.
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  Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
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  Speaker 1: being with us, Believe it or not. Former Nineteen Kids
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  Speaker 1: in Counting star Joseph Dugger now arrested for alleged child
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  Speaker 1: sex crimes against a nine year old little girl. The
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  Speaker 1: thirty one year old from Arkansas allegedly molested the girl
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  Speaker 1: on a vacation in Florida. Now, according to the court documents,
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  Speaker 1: this occurred about six years ago. Here is the kicker.
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  Speaker 1: Joseph Dugger's brother, Josh Dugger, was convicted of possessing child
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  Speaker 1: sex abuse images. Back in twenty twenty one, he's serving
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  Speaker 1: twelve and a half years behind bars after being found
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  Speaker 1: guilty of receiving and possessing child sex abuse images. What
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  Speaker 1: is with this family, dear gravy. Okay, while the new
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  Speaker 1: complaints against Josh Dugger are unfolding, I recall distinkly the
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  Speaker 1: facts in the Josh Duggar prosecution. Does anybody remember to
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  Speaker 1: Ylsea's nineteen and counting? Well, maybe this will jog your memory.
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  Speaker 1: Take a listen.
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  Speaker 2: This is the story of my family.
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  Speaker 1: We're the Douggers.
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  Speaker 3: That's me.
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  Speaker 1: I'm Michelle.
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  Speaker 2: There's Jimpa, my wonderful husband, and our children. Josh is
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  Speaker 2: our oldest he Mary Hannah, and they have our first grandchildren, Mackenzie,
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  Speaker 2: Michael and Marcus. Then there's Jenna, John, David, Jill, she Mary, Derek,
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  Speaker 2: Jessuph Ginger, Joseph, Josiah, joy Anna, Jennadiah, Jeremiah, Jason, James,
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  Speaker 2: Justin Jackson, Johannah, Jennifer, Jordan, and our youngest daughter, Josie.
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  Speaker 2: That's a grand total of nineteen and I.
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  Speaker 4: Delivered every one of them. Of course, with this many kids,
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  Speaker 4: we do things a little different than than most of
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  Speaker 4: it is it always easy, but so probably will get
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  Speaker 4: all work.
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  Speaker 1: Look I'm not knocking big families. Power to them. I
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  Speaker 1: always wanted four children. I got to. I only got to.
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  Speaker 1: Blessed with two is a better way to put it.
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  Speaker 1: But nineteen that's a little over the top for me.
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  Speaker 1: Don't care about that today. I care more about the
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  Speaker 1: fact that Josh Duger is charged with child pornography, joining
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  Speaker 1: me an all star panel. Glenn Bard, retired Pennsylvania State Trooper,
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  Speaker 1: first Class. Now this is the important part computer crime investigations.
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  Speaker 1: That's why we need to talk to Glenn Bard, US
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  Speaker 1: veteran Operation Desert Storm egoes on and on pat Tech Digital.
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  Speaker 1: You can find them at pactech dot com. Sarah G.
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  Speaker 1: West excuse me, Doctor Sarah G. West, Forensics psychiatry specializing
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  Speaker 1: in sexually deviant behavior and Associate Professor of Psychiatry, Case
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  Speaker 1: Western Reserve University School of Medicine. It's a lot to
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  Speaker 1: take in because I've learned, doctor West, that very often
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  Speaker 1: we think we know people by seeing them all the
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  Speaker 1: time on TV and nineteen accounting ran a really long time.
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  Speaker 1: I understand on TLC and it wasn't just the mom
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  Speaker 1: and Dad, there are these innocent child figures that you
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  Speaker 1: attached to, and when you watch it every single episode,
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  Speaker 1: you start identifying with them. Look, I can't tell you
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  Speaker 1: what I went through when Monk I don't know if
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  Speaker 1: you ever saw that went off the air. He was
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  Speaker 1: a detective with all sorts of emotional and mental disorders.
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  Speaker 1: I actually missed Monk. So when you attached to these people,
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  Speaker 1: it's very hard for you, the viewer or a JRR
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  Speaker 1: to think they could do anything wrong, Doctor West.
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  Speaker 4: Sure. So television shows, of course, have the benefit of
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  Speaker 4: leaving things on the editing room floor. They get to
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  Speaker 4: project an image of what they want you to see
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  Speaker 4: rather than what is actually going on behind the scenes,
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  Speaker 4: which they may or may not know about.
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  Speaker 1: You know, what is that feeling of familiarity that we
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  Speaker 1: think we know that person when really we don't.
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  Speaker 4: Sure, I don't think we really know anyone, you know.
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  Speaker 1: I noticed it, I guess the first time during the
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  Speaker 1: oj Simpson trial, because the jurors really thought they knew Simpson.
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  Speaker 1: Little did they know that my former co anchor Johnny
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  Speaker 1: Cochrane and others had gone through Simpson's house and completely
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  Speaker 1: redecorated regarding private photos all sorts of art. So when
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  Speaker 1: the jurors walked through, they saw a completely different aspect
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  Speaker 1: of Simpson. I guess it wasn't an aspect of Simpson's.
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  Speaker 1: It wasn't even real, but it fit with what they
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  Speaker 1: thought they knew. Guys, we're talking about Josh Duger, thirty
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  Speaker 1: three year old father of multiple children himself now on
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  Speaker 1: trying for child pornography. I want to go first to
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  Speaker 1: Glenn Bard regarding what we know about Douger's computer. But
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  Speaker 1: first of all, take a listen to our friend Byron
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  Speaker 1: Pitts at ABC Nightline.
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  Speaker 5: Josh Duger was arrested in Arkansas on Thursday, and on
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  Speaker 5: Friday the charges were revealed. The thirty three year old
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  Speaker 5: former nineteen Kids in Counting Star is accused of receiving
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  Speaker 5: and possessing child pornography. During a hearing over Zoom, Dugger
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  Speaker 5: pled not guilty to the federal charges. According to court documents.
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  Speaker 5: In May twenty nineteen, Dugger allegedly used the Internet to
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  Speaker 5: download child's sexual abuse material. He allegedly possessed the material,
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  Speaker 5: some of which involved the sexual abuse of children under
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  Speaker 5: the age of twelve. If convicted, Dugger faces up to
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  Speaker 5: twenty years in prison and finds up to two hundred
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  Speaker 5: and fifty thousand dollars on each count.
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  Speaker 1: The counts here seemed to indicate that he went through
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  Speaker 1: quite a lot to download the porn. It's my understanding, Glenbard,
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  Speaker 1: former Pennsylvania State true or first class computer crime investigations expert,
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  Speaker 1: that he had all sorts of software on his computer
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  Speaker 1: at work at the used car lot so it would
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  Speaker 1: not alert his wife. He was looking at not just
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  Speaker 1: inappropriate sex material, but illegal sex material.
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  Speaker 6: From what I.
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  Speaker 7: Understand, what he had was a dual boot system, and
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  Speaker 7: what that means is that it had a Windows opening system,
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  Speaker 7: but he could then boot into a Linux partition. And
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  Speaker 7: the reason why people do that not just this reason,
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  Speaker 7: but one of the reasons is because when it boots
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  Speaker 7: into the Linux partition, all the software, the monitoring software,
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  Speaker 7: the networking software won't work on that Linux partition side.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, Glenbard.
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  Speaker 1: I hate to interrupt you midstream, but a lot of
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  Speaker 1: people don't know what you're saying because you're way way
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  Speaker 1: way defcom for on this. You've got to talk not
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  Speaker 1: computer language, but regular people talk. So when I say
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  Speaker 1: I believe from the facts. The state is trying to
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  Speaker 1: prove that Josh Duger from nineteen in County On, TLC
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  Speaker 1: had special software on his computer so his wife Anna
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  Speaker 1: at home would not be alerted he was looking at
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  Speaker 1: child born. So let's start with something easy for non
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  Speaker 1: techies like myself to get their mind around. What is
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  Speaker 1: an alert on your computer that will notify somebody else,
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  Speaker 1: the third party, that you're doing something really naughty? What
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  Speaker 1: is that?
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  Speaker 7: There is monitoring software that will alert people when something
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  Speaker 7: like he is being viewed, or certain websites or being
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  Speaker 7: access Some people can use it to monitor their children,
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  Speaker 7: and other people use it for like this circumstance, maybe
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  Speaker 7: a person who had a history.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, did you say some people use it to monitor
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  Speaker 1: their children like we have. Bark b a arka and
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  Speaker 1: I had never heard of it before, but it alerts
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  Speaker 1: you when your child goes onto a website that's bad
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  Speaker 1: for them. And let me tell you what happened the
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  Speaker 1: other day. Listen to this doctor West. So I got
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  Speaker 1: an alert that my son John David was into self harm. Well,
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  Speaker 1: I nearly did a backflip. I went on immediately because
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  Speaker 1: Bark had alerted me. Guess what it was that week,
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  Speaker 1: and I was there when it happened. He was defending
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  Speaker 1: a goal. He was goalie in a soccer game at school,
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  Speaker 1: and he dived almost sideways and his arm went through
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  Speaker 1: the net, and he was so proud that he had
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  Speaker 1: an injury, a bruise. So he took a picture of
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  Speaker 1: his bruise that he got and by the way he
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  Speaker 1: did defend it. They did not score, the other team
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  Speaker 1: did not score, and he was so proud that he
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  Speaker 1: was showing it off. He took a picture of it
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  Speaker 1: with cell phone and sent it to some of his friends.
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  Speaker 1: Look what I got defending the goal. And Bart was
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  Speaker 1: so sensitive it picked up on that bruise and him
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  Speaker 1: taking a picture of it. It alerted me, is you
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  Speaker 1: know so? I found that really interesting? Uh, doctor West,
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  Speaker 1: that that it's so sensitive to pick up things just
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  Speaker 1: like that. Have you ever encountered that in your psychiatric practice.
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  Speaker 4: I have never seen the monitor software it used, but
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  Speaker 4: certainly self harm is a huge issue with our adolescent
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  Speaker 4: population now so great that.
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  Speaker 1: You are on top of that, I'm telling you. Sorry, okay,
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  Speaker 1: So let me ask you back to you, Glenn Bard,
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  Speaker 1: When you say that it's like parents who monitor their children.
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  Speaker 1: What do you mean by that?
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  Speaker 7: What I mean is the software itself.
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  Speaker 3: What it does is it can be set up to just.
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  Speaker 7: Monitor activities, the person's activities, whether it be spending too
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  Speaker 7: much time on social media or accessing websites that contain pornography.
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  Speaker 7: And what it will do is it will notify a person.
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  Speaker 7: And it can be anything from just sending an email
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  Speaker 7: out or sending your Internet history to an email account,
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  Speaker 7: and that lets the person be able to know what's
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  Speaker 7: been going on on that computer system.
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  Speaker 1: So what I understand is Josh Digger had high tech
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  Speaker 1: software installed on his work computer to bypass the monitoring
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  Speaker 1: service that alerted wife Anna when he looked at quote
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  Speaker 1: mature pain or crime stores with Nancy Gray. The former
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  Speaker 1: TLC star Joseph Duggar charge molestation of a victim under
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  Speaker 1: twelve years old and with lewd and lascivious behavior of
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  Speaker 1: a person eighteen or older. This is according to the
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  Speaker 1: Bay County Sheriff's Office. The girl, now fourteen, tells investigators
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  Speaker 1: the incident took place while she was with her family
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  Speaker 1: in Panama City back in twenty twenty. Dugger was booked
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  Speaker 1: in the Washing County Jail in Arkansas and he will
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  Speaker 1: be extradited to Bay County. Now, in these new claims,
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  Speaker 1: it's alleged Joseph Duggar asked the girl to sit on
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  Speaker 1: his lap as the vacation continued. According to the sheriff,
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  Speaker 1: he also asked her to sit next to him on
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  Speaker 1: a couch and covered the two of them with a blanket. Now,
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  Speaker 1: during this time, Dugger allegedly manipulated the little girl's underwear
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  Speaker 1: and touched for genitals. That's according to the sheriff. Now
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  Speaker 1: you can expect dugg Ar two plead. You can expect
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  Speaker 1: Duggar to plead not guilty. The then nine year old
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  Speaker 1: girl stated Dougger eventually apologized for what happened and the
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  Speaker 1: incidents stopped. Now, these charges and the arrest follow the
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  Speaker 1: girl having a forensic interview after she made the claim
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  Speaker 1: of sex abuse. Her father reportedly confronted Dugger, and the
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  Speaker 1: reality star allegedly admitted his actions to the father and
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  Speaker 1: to detectives. WHOA Okay, the crazy coincidence is that his brother,
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  Speaker 1: Josh Dugger sitting behind bars for images of child sex abuse.
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  Speaker 1: What is going on with this family? It's a dichotomy
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  Speaker 1: and I want to talk to you about this doctor West,
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  Speaker 1: that they present such a wholesome image. But yet we're
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  Speaker 1: finding out that, according to the state, Josh Duger downloaded
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  Speaker 1: child porn.
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  Speaker 4: And that is something people often do in the privacy
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  Speaker 4: of their own home that others may have no idea about.
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  Speaker 1: Actually, what's happening in the courtroom can be very confusing
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  Speaker 1: if you're not a high tech computer juru like Glenn
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  Speaker 1: bard Is. But what's happening in that courtroom right now,
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  Speaker 1: our gurrrs are getting an overload a computer tech education
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  Speaker 1: and child porn. Take a listen to our friend Craig
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  Speaker 1: O'Neil at THHV eleven.
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  Speaker 8: All eyes are on Fable this week as the trial
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  Speaker 8: of Josh Dugger gets underway. The former reality TV stars
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  Speaker 8: charged with two counts of downloading and possessing child pornography.
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  Speaker 8: Jury selection started this morning and the judge has yet
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  Speaker 8: to decide on whether the prosecution can call Bobby Holt,
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  Speaker 8: a longtime friend of Dougger's, to testify the prosecution claims.
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  Speaker 8: In two thousand and three, Dugger told Holt on several
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  Speaker 8: occasions he molested as many as four minors for several years.
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  Speaker 8: Dugger's lawyer Sayholt should not testify because the things he
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  Speaker 8: said were at a time that she was acting as
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  Speaker 8: his spiritual advisor, with the understanding it would be confidential.
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  Speaker 8: If convicted, he faces up to twenty years in prison,
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  Speaker 8: along with fines of up to two hundred and fifty
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  Speaker 8: thousand dollars on each count.
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  Speaker 1: Now that is going to be an issue on appeal
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  Speaker 1: if there is a conviction that evidence of prior molestations
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  Speaker 1: of his sisters came into evidence front of the jury.
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  Speaker 1: But take a listen now to our friends at People magazine,
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  Speaker 1: this is our cut twenty five as describing how Josh
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  Speaker 1: Digger's computer at work not home was quote riddled with
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  Speaker 1: illicit material. I'm talking about child porn with children as
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  Speaker 1: young as seven, may be younger. Take a listener, friends
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  Speaker 1: at People.
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  Speaker 9: On the third day of job Shdugger's trial on Thursday,
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  Speaker 9: and investigator detailed the personal forensic investigation of three of
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  Speaker 9: the former reality stars devices.
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  Speaker 1: One investigator, who.
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  Speaker 9: Spoke the longest and will continue speaking on the stand Friday,
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  Speaker 9: revealed details about evidence found on Duggar's HP desktop computer
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  Speaker 9: from his office at a car lot. The investigator testified
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  Speaker 9: that the machine was riddled with illicit material. With the
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  Speaker 9: aid of a series of screenshots, the investigator walked through
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  Speaker 9: some of what he saw and learned in exploring the
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  Speaker 9: HP machine. He testified that there was a program to
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  Speaker 9: install a Linux operating system which was downloaded on the
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  Speaker 9: device just days before the computer was found to be
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  Speaker 9: sharing the illicit material in May of twenty nineteen.
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  Speaker 1: He explained that the program.
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  Speaker 9: Made it possible that while the public facing portion of
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  Speaker 9: the computer appeared to be mostly business related, the hard
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  Speaker 9: drive had in fact been split in two. Another experts
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  Speaker 9: testimony described it as a separate computer on a computer.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I understand it was something called a Linux
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  Speaker 1: or Linux partition, which is a sophisticated piece of software
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  Speaker 1: creating a separate workspace on your computer. You install it
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  Speaker 1: as software on your computer, but then you open it
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  Speaker 1: up as if it's an entirely different device. What about that,
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  Speaker 1: Glenn Bar, Does that make any sense to you?
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  Speaker 10: Some people do that.
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  Speaker 7: What happens They describe it very well. They cut the
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  Speaker 7: hard drive in two, and what will happen is you
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  Speaker 7: can be using the Windows side, which we all use
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  Speaker 7: for work in many cases, but when you want to
• 17:31
  Speaker 7: do something that you don't want the Windows side to see,
• 17:35
  Speaker 7: or you just want to go into a different operating system.
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  Speaker 7: That machine can be turned off and turned back on
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  Speaker 7: and this time go into that Linux operating system. It's
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  Speaker 7: its own operating system, and it gives you truly like
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  Speaker 7: a second computer. It's the same keyboard, the same monitor,
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  Speaker 7: the same housing itself, but it's a completely different operating system.
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  Speaker 7: And when you do that, what it allows it to
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  Speaker 7: do is any type of controls that would be in
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  Speaker 7: place on the Window side won't be in control on
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  Speaker 7: that Linux side.
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  Speaker 1: We're talking about Josh Duger, thirty three years old, now
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  Speaker 1: reality star and a former hit series on TLC nineteen
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Kids in Counting. It was a staple on TLC, a
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: highly rating network, to Jackie Howard joining us from Crime
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Online dot Com. Prosecutors have said in open court, and
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: these are their words, not mine, that Duger downloaded images
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  Speaker 1: and videos of young girls as young as seven years
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  Speaker 1: old being quote abused, violated, and exploited, including files named
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  Speaker 1: such names as Daisies, Destruction, Playboy Sweetie, and Pedo Mom.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: I understand that there was a little Right Police Department
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: special task force called Torrential Downpour. It was an undercover
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  Speaker 1: online investigation to unmasked pedophiles and perverts. I understand that
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  Speaker 1: there was footage of girls aged seven and nine being
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: raped by an adult male and sixty five images at
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  Speaker 1: least of a young girl seven or eight years old
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  Speaker 1: being sexually abused and then placed in a dog channel.
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  Speaker 1: Jackie Howard, is it true that several of the jurors
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  Speaker 1: actually looked away as snippets of this material was shown
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  Speaker 1: to them on monitors?
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  Speaker 3: That is true, Nancy. Obviously it's a very difficult situation
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  Speaker 3: and that is not easy material to look at. But
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  Speaker 3: we also know that Josh Duper's family was affected. In fact,
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  Speaker 3: his wife actually got us and walked out of the
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  Speaker 3: courtroom in tears at that time.
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  Speaker 1: What does it mean, Glenn Bard? The court heard that
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: at Callamer who was with the Little Rock Police tipped
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  Speaker 1: off federal investigators and they trace the quote IP address
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  Speaker 1: to Josh Duggers used car dealership, wholesale motor cars. What
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  Speaker 1: does that mean to trace an IP address? What is that?
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  Speaker 4: So?
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  Speaker 6: The IP address is the Internet protocol and what that
• 20:24
  Speaker 6: is is a number that will identify a network on
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  Speaker 6: the Internet, kind of like your phone number will identify
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: your series.
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  Speaker 7: Of phones at your home.
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  Speaker 6: The same thing happens to the Internet. It's just a.
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  Speaker 7: Series of numbers that will identify a network access the
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  Speaker 7: Internet through one access.
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  Speaker 4: Point or a router.
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  Speaker 7: So what they do is they can take that IP
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  Speaker 7: address and it will tell them the ISD Internet Service provider,
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  Speaker 7: And what they do then is serve legal process on
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  Speaker 7: an ISP, who will then in turn and tell them
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  Speaker 7: where that network comes back to the physical location of
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  Speaker 7: that IP address at that time.
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  Speaker 1: You know what I find really interesting Jackie Howard joining
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  Speaker 1: some crime online when the FEDS came in and grabbed
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  Speaker 1: his desktop at work Wholesale Motors, he said, without having
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: any idea of why they took the computer. Quote, has
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  Speaker 1: someone downloaded child porn? Okay, you've heard me say this
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: till I'm sure you're blue in the face. Me. Thanks,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: thou dost protest too much. It's like you walk by
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: a cop at the mall and you say, hey, I
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: was part of that smashing grab and nobody asked that's
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: what he did, Jackie. Has someone downloaded child pornography?
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: It is what he did, Nancy, And given his history
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: that he has admitted in the best to having an
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: issue in having been through a treatment center during his marriage.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: He was very open with his life, and they actually
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: installed on that computer a program called Covenant Eyes. They
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: subscribe I did this in twenty thirteen, so we're looking
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: at about eight years ago. And this program would alert
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: his wife to any adult Internet usage and it would
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: report that back to Anna Douger. Now, the information that
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: was set up, as you mentioned, on the link system,
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: was in a partition and had a password that was entail.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: The password was the same password that he used to
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: do his banking information. So it's very unlikely that anybody
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: hacked in and decided to use the exact same password
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: for what he did his banking with.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, tell me that again, Jackie Howard. I understand that
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: his password involved his birthday, like the year. I mean,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: does anybody ever get tired of using their birthday or
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: the year they were born, like Superstar in nineteen ninety eight,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: when you were born in nineteen ninety eight. I mean,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: he used his birthday in his password.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: His password was in jail nineteen eighty eight.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Help me out. First, I want to talk to you
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: about the wife, Okay, and this is not her fault.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: She's not the one downloading child porn according to prosecutors,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I mean sick child porn where you rate a seven
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: year old girl and then put her in a dog kennel.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: I could say more, but I'm not. I'm not. So
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: why does the wife They've got seven children together? Why
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: does a wife stay with somebody that she knows? Sarah
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: addicted to not just pornography, but child pornography.
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: Well, I would suggest as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: or the psychiatry Bible would tell us that looking at
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: this kind of material as an illness, and you know,
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: if you view it through that lens, then you would
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: maybe be more tempted to stick around and see some
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: through their illness.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry seeing it as an illness, Okay, I understand that,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: But have you ever known doctor West? With me? Sarah G. West,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist. You can find her at Forensic Psychiatry MD
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: dot com. Sarah West. And all the years that I
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: prosecuted child molestation and sex offenses, I never saw one
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: child molester get rehabilitated. It's in their DNA. I don't
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: think they can change it. If you disagree, tell me why.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: Well, I do think there are some treatment options available
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: that may make it less likely that they would re
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: engage in that kind of behavior.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: You mean like Paslov's dogs. In other words, they still
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: want to do the naughty thing, but they know they're
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: going to get zapped if they do it. The impulse
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: to do it never goes away, but they can be
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: trained not to do it. Is that what you're saying?
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: That is a very psychological approach to that, And yes,
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: I think that is quite possible.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: How is that different from what you said?
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: I would say that it's probably a little more complex.
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: I think that you could probably decrease the impulses as well,
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: but that would be the more challenging piece. Controlling the
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: behavior is absolutely the thing that we need to be
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: mindful of, and there are a couple of techniques that
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: psychiatrists and psychologists both utilize to do that. The first
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: is therapy. The main stay of therapy is victim empathy.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: I think that that is a nice way to teach
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: people that what they're doing hurts other folks. And the second,
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: probably more intrusive form, is medication. Medication can decrease sech
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: drive and decrease somebody's likelihood that they would be able
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: to physically act on those inputs.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: So basically you're saying, let me just put it in
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: regular people talk, decrease sex activity, so the PERB can't
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: get an erection.
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: That is one of the methods. Yes, Another method would
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: be the utilization of a medication that's real commons. They're
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: SSRIs selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. More commonly people might know prozac,
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: golof those are actually medications that decrease sex drive, decreased
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: sexual desire. It's a side effect. We can use that
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: side effect to treat people who have unusual sexual impulses.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: So you say unusual sex impulses, I call them felonies.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: But doctor West, so your one treatment to decrease the
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: urge for child sex or child porn is to dope
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: them up. But the minute they get off the drugs,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: they're right back at it. My question is, is there
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: a way to your knowledge, to cure them, to stop
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: them forever having the impulse to have sex with children,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: which is rape or look at child porn to make
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: that urge go away.
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: I do not think there's a way to entirely make
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: that urge go away.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: So doctor West, like it or not, I think you
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: agree with me because I've never seen a child molester,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: to my chagrin, ever, be cured. When I was a
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: new prosecutor, I was besieged by defense attorneys that wanted
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: me to send their client to treatment facilities instead of
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: to jail. I did it once. It was a mistake.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: It was a mistake. I never did it again because
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: I learned the hard way. I learned the hard way.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: It doesn't work. I don't think it works.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: I do think it depends on insight. If people recognize
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: they have a problem and are motivated to solve it,
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: just like any other medical condition diabetes, high blood pressure,
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: then they can do the things that are necessary to
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: keep it under control.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: You know, Jackie, I want to go back to you.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Jackie Howard Duggar says he was quote his word's not mine,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: vaguely familiar with the password Intel nineteen eighty eight, prompting
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: a brief but furious exchange of Roberts, who accused him
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: of hiding information. So long story short, he admits that's
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: his password. He knows it's his password, and what was
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: he using the password for? Jackie Howard?
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: He was using it to access his banking information, and good.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Lord, I'm a JD. Not a DD's not a pool teeth.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: I can certainly try, Jackie Howard. He was also using
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: it to look at videos of seven to eight year
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: old girls being sexually abused, i e. Raped and put
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: in dog kennels. Take a listen to it. I'm okay,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: what go ahead?
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: And if you did not have access to that password
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: for the petition on his computery, no one else could
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: access that, no.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: One else could access us that, guys, I want you
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: to take a listen to our cut thirty two. This
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: is Emma Claybrook at forty twenty nine News.
• 29:08
  Speaker 11: Before the forensics expert took the stand, the jury heard
• 29:11
  Speaker 11: from three former Dugger family friends. The final witness testified
• 29:15
  Speaker 11: that Dugger allegedly touched the private parts of four juveniles
• 29:19
  Speaker 11: in two thousand and three when he was fifteen. Judge
• 29:22
  Speaker 11: Tim Brooks told the jury that Dugger is not charged with.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: Child molestation in this case.
• 29:27
  Speaker 11: In this case, he's only charged with possessing and receiving
• 29:30
  Speaker 11: child pornography. But the judge says he allowed the testimony
• 29:33
  Speaker 11: to stand today to help set up a motive for
• 29:36
  Speaker 11: the current charges Dougger is facing.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: And let me understand that Sarah West a motive for
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: the and similar transactions are allowed. That means, let's say
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: I charge Jackie Howard with pulling a pistol and pistol
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: whipping Kara here in the studio, just off the top
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: of my head, and she's being tried for that. Jackie,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: you know I don't like you anymore after you pistol
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: whipped her. But I can, then, as a prosecutor, bring
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: in that on another occasion she pistol whipped somebody else,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: that she threw a gun at somebody else, that she
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: is prone to gun violence. They are brought in to
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: show motive, course of conduct, frame of mind, intent. They
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: tend to prove the case in chief, although the jury
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: is not considering those charges for sentencing or guilt or innocence.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: That's what's happening here. So let me understand this, doctor West.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: The prosecutor brought in previous examples of him molesting his
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: sisters to show motive, and the sisters were young, they
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: were under age at the time, considered children in the
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: eyes of the law, to show motive for downloading child porn.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you, doctor West?
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: It does me, But we would look at someone's past
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: behavior to get a better sense of what's going on currently. Absolutely,
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: something that I do when I work with folks who
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: have a history of sex offense has examine what.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: Has happened in the past to get a better understanding
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: of what's going on right now.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I don't understand, doctor, ask how when you've already been
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: in trouble for sexu related crimes, that you're willing to
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: risk your livelihood, your marriage, losing your seven children Because
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: if he's convicted of child porn, he's not going to
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: have access or visitation, unfettered visitation with his children. That's
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: not going to happen. No, you're right, why would a
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: per risk it all?
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: So it is a difficult pill to swallow. But again
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: I'll go back to the concept that this is an illness.
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: In the same way that we wonder why folks continue
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: to drink after they've had ten DUIs, This is the
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: same thing.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace. The Josh Dugger case was
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: full of bombshells. GWNN Bard, former Pennsylvania State trupe for
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: first class computer crime investigations. You can find them at
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: forensicspactech dot com. Glenn have you seen this before where
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: people that download child porn go through extreme and elaborate
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: measures to hide it.
• 32:36
  Speaker 10: Absolutely, a lot of times what I've seen personally from
• 32:40
  Speaker 10: my investigations that child porn A lot of times it will
• 32:43
  Speaker 10: be something that's very important to them, and like the
• 32:47
  Speaker 10: same way that you protect things very important to you,
• 32:50
  Speaker 10: whether it be you.
• 32:51
  Speaker 7: Know, your children and sort like that, that's what they
• 32:53
  Speaker 7: do with this sort of stuff. I've seen almost identical
• 32:56
  Speaker 7: things where people will go through great lengths about hiding
• 32:59
  Speaker 7: it or even I remember one case in particular, I
• 33:03
  Speaker 7: had a person who had his family living in.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: Utter fills in a house.
• 33:07
  Speaker 7: The house is the Ploraboy. It was, I mean, I
• 33:09
  Speaker 7: felt terrible just walking through there, But when you walked
• 33:12
  Speaker 7: into that guy's computer room, he actually kept covers and
• 33:16
  Speaker 7: cloth on the computers to keep them clean and safe.
• 33:20
  Speaker 7: He had his children living in utter, absolute filled but
• 33:23
  Speaker 7: those computer systems were protected and covered and kept safe.
• 33:27
  Speaker 7: And the reason why it was because I was on
• 33:29
  Speaker 7: them was tough pornography. It was kind of like almost
• 33:32
  Speaker 7: the focal point of everything that he had in life.
• 33:35
  Speaker 7: So this is not surprising to hear this sort of
• 33:38
  Speaker 7: thing taking too I think to say.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: It, you know, another saying doctor, yeah, jump in.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: One of the things that also important to remember then,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: in regards for this onement's provision that he had on
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: his computer, not only that he had software that would
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: also circumsen and his search and make sure that the
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: monitoring program that he and his wife that installed on
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: the computer would not work and would not notify her.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: So he went to extreme measures. And my question to you,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: doctor Sarah West.
• 34:08
  Speaker 6: Is.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know quite how to say this, but sometimes
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: it seems to me that the effort, the conniving, the scams,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the secrecy, all of the labyrinth they go through to
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: hide something adds to the thrill of it. You know, Like,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: let's see people that are cheating on their spouse, they
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: go through all this drama to register at a hotel
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: under a different name and paying cash and wear a
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: hat and sunglasses when they go. It's crazy to me,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: but to them that's part of the excitement of it. Potentially.
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and there is a whole community out there on
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: the dark web who exchanges this information, you know. One
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: if you worked with a couple of these offenders, you
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: get a better sense of how deep this goes.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Guys, we are talking about a reality TV star, Josh
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Duger right now on trial for downloading images of child porn.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Trade back out to Jackie Howard, Crime Online dot Com
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: investigative reporter Jackie, you and I have taught in depth
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: with for instance, our friend will call her Alicia, Alicia Kay,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: who was raped and molested as a young child, and
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: her molester took hundreds and hundreds of photos and video
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: images of her. And to this day they're still being
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: traded on the dark web. And how much to this day,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: years decades later, it still upsets these victims. These images
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: are being traded like baseball cards.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: Jackie Howard say, Lauren Nancy and the ring that these
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: pictures get passed in on the dark web and through
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: message boards by pedophiles and six abuse people who watch porn,
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: and it's just a circle, and they enjoy sharing it.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: It's almost like a hobby in a way.
• 36:20
  Speaker 7: They enjoy sharing.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: What they have found and what they've seen with other
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: people who are abusers.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: If I were in court right now, I would stay,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: look you dead in eyes and tell you what's on
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: those images, the videos I've already told you about the
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: little girls being raped. One little girl being molested and
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: thrown in a dog pin. There's so many more that
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: are even more graphic. Little children being sexually abused and
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: forced to pose in certain ways in front of the camera.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Those children will never be the same I've worked with.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: I can't even count how many molestation victims children. They
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: go on to live, to have a job, maybe have
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: a family. They're never ever the same. And these pervs
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: are trading these sex images child porn like their baseball cards.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: How bizarre is it that Joseph dugger from Nineteen Kids
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: in Counting is now charged with child's sex abuse while
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: brother Josh is doing twelve plus years behind bars on
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: child six images That case blew the reality show and
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: the family's image to bits. Joseph Duggar insists he's innocent.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds Nancy Grace's crime story, signing
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: off good Bye friend.