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Episode 763: The Story of Shame with Jeffrey Rutstein Psy.D · The Trauma Therapist

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Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson. My
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mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in who
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we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating authenticity,
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genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more about
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my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com. That's
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the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, So vibe for three
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two and our folks, welcome back to the podcast. I am very excited
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to happens. My guest back, doctor Jeffrey Rutstein. Jeffrey, welcome back.
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Thank you, Thank you guys, thank you for having me. You're
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welcome. So. Doctor Rutstein is a clinical psychologist, an expert in the
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treatment of trauma, a certified Hacomi Mindfulness centered Semitic psychotherapist, and a meditation
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teacher who has been in private practice for over thirty seven years. He's practiced
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meditation for over fifty five years and that profoundly impacts every aspect of his work.
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He has devoted his professional life to helping people reduce their suffering and struggle
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while empowering them to clean their strengths, their talents, and their unique abilities
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to live a more fulfilling and rich life. In partnership with Sounds True,
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Dr Rustin created and leads the nine month Healing Trauma Program. This program focuses
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on empowering individuals through comprehensive training and polybagical insight and mindfulness practices that foster grounding,
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presence, connection, compassion, and healing. Awesome, welcome back,
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Thank you. So I want to remind everyone share with them where you're from
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originally and where you are currently in terms of physical occasion. Yeah, I
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was born in DC. I grew up in Maryland just outside of DC and
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started some of my early trauma work there. When in college, I was
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starting to work as a bachelor's level social worker with adjudicated youth and so I
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really took a deep interest in what sort of drives people to be driven to
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behaviors that are either self destructive or other destructive. And then for graduate school,
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I came up to New Jersey and I haven't left, and to my
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friends in Maryland, like, I didn't even want to admit that I was
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in New Jersey. I apologize all New Jersey ands. I'm a very happy
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New Jersey and right now, But at first, like Maryland and a lot
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of other states, had not the greatest outsider's view of New Jersey, and
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so you would only identify, like what exit you were on? Right,
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very familiar with that. Yeah, yeah, where are you from? Well?
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I was born in Manhattan, lived in Queens, lived in Jersey Tries
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some area, yeah, all over, yeah. Yeah. One of the
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things that interests me about the way you speak and the way you talk about
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what you do is you're very specific, and not everyone is very specific.
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For instance, just now, you talked about, you know, what drove
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people towards self destructive behaviors, you know, and in your bio you talk
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about helping people reduce their suffering and struggle while empowering them to clean their strength,
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their talents, and the unique ability. So there's at least from my
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perspective, you've honed in on, at least in part on what drives you
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you. How did you get so specific about that and what intrigued you about
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those specificities of people and human behavior. I think I was always curious,
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just as a child I was lucky to be curious. I was also sensitive,
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so I took everything personally. So I became a very early student of
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suffering. You know, the atmosphere in my house was tense, and there
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was some abuse that occurred at times, and that certainly impacted my relationship to
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pain and my curiosity about what would make someone else do that to somebody,
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like to hit someone or to hate them so much. So it came from
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very personal roots to me. But then as I worked with other people,
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I saw that lots of other people had different experiences in life right and yet
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or or set. For example, I knew that a lot of the kids
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that I work with grew up in very adversive homes, very difficult, very
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traumatic, in many ways abusive, and it led them to a wide variety
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of options. So a lot of the kids that I saw were kids that
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then broke the law and were arrested, and this was part of their quote
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unquote rehabilitation. But it led these kind of youth to taking violence as one
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of the courses, or drugs as one of the courses of dealing with their
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pain or their anger, or their shame or whatever the wounds were from their
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childhood. Other people take different means, and they become very masochistic, or
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have to take care of everybody else, or don't want to take up any
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space at all, or don't want contact with humans. Right, So,
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I was intrigued by the way that certain kinds of hurtful experiences produce similarities in
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behavior and also can produce very extreme differences simultaneously. So I think also,
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you know, from a young age, I've been interested in the mind and
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so, and especially if you're introspective and anxious as a child, you have
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a whole lot of time in your mind to kind of begin to see how
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it keeps going to torturous places. It took me a long, long part
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of my life to kind of figure out how to get out of those,
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but it in my own work of working with the kinds of things that entrapped
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me, I could see a kind of universal mechanism. And our neuroscience just
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deepens that understanding that we have over these years that certain experiences you have have
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fundamental impacts on the way that you perceive yourself or perceive the world. Get
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specific if you would, sure, sure so, say someone, Well,
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I'll give a specific example. I have permission to use this person as an
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example. Someone that I work with grew up in a family that had many
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siblings and depressed and very very over extended mom and dad was no longer alive,
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so the family was struggling financially and there was a sense of poverty that
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they had, but because of mom's depression and most likely also and now in
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hindsight, I can see this because of her trauma, right, what she
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sort of was handing down to this panic and guilt and shame associated with not
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having money, that she blamed it on their children why she didn't have money,
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and she blamed it on them being so expensive and that they were draining
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her dry. And this was when the kids were young. They weren't asking
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for cars. This was just putting food on the table and keeping the house,
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rent paid, and so on and so forth. But this person now
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is an adult. You group is the youngest, and he has an incredibly
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hard time do things, spending any money or asking anybody to do anything for
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him. Now, he just thought he was prudent, you know, financially
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resourceful and intelligent. And he also thought that he was being an independent you
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know man that you lean on yourself, you don't lean on others. As
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we sort of explored it, we could see that part of this came from
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what he inherited from his mom in terms of her anxiety and her closeness,
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her limitations about money and how scary it was not to have it, and
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that he felt like he was in some way still trying to make up for
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that, trying to get her approval, trying to unmake the mistake, trying
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to show that he's not such a drain on money, he won't be a
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drain on somebody else. So it limited how close he could get to people
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and whether he could receive affection. It's sort of so our early experiences both
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have their own direct wound, right, But the ripples of this frequently frequently
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come out into the ways that people relate with each other, the way that
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we relate with ourselves. You know that it's even more subtle than than the
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outward behavior. It's just how we are feeling and how we communicate that to
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others in the world. Like you see this now, right, Like never
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before has the world been showing, at least to me, such raw examples
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of such people, people being in such a sustained fight response just enraged,
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right, And that makes my nervous system feel less safe because this is going
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on, and I think that all of our nervous systems are perceiving that at
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some level. Right. So I think that, you know, one of
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the things that we teach in the course, one of the things it's really
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important to me as an individual too, is also sort of helping people see
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that we don't have to be imprisoned by these abbot patterns of beliefs and of
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limitations, or of shame or of the burden of unresolved trauma. This does
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not have to stay in your body or in your mind. That we don't
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have to be prisoners to that. Right. It's harm enough to go through
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a difficult experience right once, let alone for some people hundreds or thousands of
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times, but then beyond that, to have not only that pain, but
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then the pain of somehow I caused this, or I didn't do enough to
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stop this, or I deserve this, or I was told I deserve this,
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or someone told me not to go there, but I went there anyways.
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So we have the pain of the original affront or wound or betrayal or
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attack, but then we have, on top of that and this is where
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trauma and abuse in many many ways that it they make it complicated because it
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pulls in this self blame, this self shaming that I've created this pain,
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that somehow there's something ugly or bad in me and that's what's caused this,
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right and to me over time with trauma. That is one of the deepest
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legacies I think that people have, is this tendency to still carry and embody
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shame, right, and it can be very subtle in little things. I
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had someone else I worked with who and this is not uncommon that they kept
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putting off going to an annual physician visit because their father had cancer. That
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about the age that they were getting to and they just didn't want to go,
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and they didn't want to go, and they didn't want to go,
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and they didn't realize that it was both part of their fear of dead,
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but also their shame that they didn't feel like they deserve to live longer than
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him. Oh, I get care of right, So there was this unconscious
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I'm going to avoid doing this. I'm busy, You've got other things going
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on. But really what was going on when he worked into it and felt
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into it was much more that he felt guilt about breaking this thing that you
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know, Dad didn't take care of himself, so why should I right now?
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Wow, right, the way you're describing this, it's just so relatable.
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I mean, these are very real feelings, normal feelings that a lot
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of us have, I mean, just feeling shame about these things. And
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it's the difficulty oftentimes with the challenge could be getting the awareness right. So
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initially, yes, I think that's a big piece of it. Most of
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the time, when we're in shame, we're in a trance, right,
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We don't even know that we're in shame. We just think my brain's telling
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me the truth. When we're in anger, when our trance, we sometimes
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don't even know we're angry. We just think I'm perceiving reality and it sucks
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in a angry reality instead of maybe something's going on. We listen to our
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states, and the state of Paul that we listen to the most is the
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states that are self critical, the ones that emphasize the energy of shame,
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judgment, condemnation, the idea of not being enoughness, something inside of you
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is raw orun cooked or undone or just frank. Universally, essentially not enough
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that that's the message of that, and so many people have that infiltrate their
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thoughts, infiltrate their behaviors, and if not in overt ways, in sello
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ways. For example, I work with a bunch of people who've had some
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traum in their lives, and all of them developed a tendency for perfectionism.
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Now, to me, trying to be perfect is kind of also the flip
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side of shame. I want to be the opposite of shame. I want
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to be beyond reproach because if I'm beyond reproach, people will care or remain
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connected with me in relationship, or value me, or won't fire me.
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But it's that perfectionism, right, that also limits their life. They're so
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worried about being perfect that they have no time for enjoyment or no time for
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taking care of their needs or self care, because it's all about survival,
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it's all about focusing. And in those ways, our awareness gets hijacked by
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the states that we find ourselves dominantly in. And so you're right that we
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have the first step is beginning to even become aware in yourself that that's what's
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happening, right, like to be able to catch in the moment, either
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the shift in thoughts or narratives. So for me, right my shame as
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a frequent visitor, and when it comes knocking around the same time that a
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thought will occur, I'll have this feeling in my upper stomach and chest of
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a kind of contraction and falling at the same time, kind of contractioning and
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just opening up. But a thought will come into my head, of some
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anxious thought about something I've messed up or effed up beyond repair, and it's
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that element of I've done it, it's already beyond repair, unscrewed. That
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starts that kind of a cycle, and it's over nothing. It's over.
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When I'm not in shame, I immediately know what are you talking about it?
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But in that moment, for that second, it feels totally real,
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totally believable, and I can get usurped by it. So part of it
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is beginning to notice when we get usurped by it, and part of it
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is also learning how to stay more present in the body versus just getting lost
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in the story of shame. Because the story of shame is quite seductive.
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It'll just pull you in, right, I imagine, you know, like
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a cartoon that has someone standing there and they're having a thought it's a little
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bit of shame, and it turns into this dark cloud and the next second
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all you see is empty tennis shoes and empty socks because they've gotten sucked into
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this cloud of shame. That's where we go, like we get we lose
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our grounding, we lose something else. You go into this very interesting and
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very pained, very place where no one can save you. Right, because
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when you're feeling shame, and I think your listeners, our listen as we'd
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understand this too, is that when you're feeling the intensity of shame in that
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moment, if someone tries to say you have nothing to be ashamed about,
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usually that gets bounced out within a second. I'm sorry, I'm in shame.
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You clearly don't know. I have messed up. This is the world's
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worst messed up. This isn't just a minor mess up. This is unforgivable.
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You don't understand the scope of right. So part of that is beginning
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to see that we live, and this is part of what we teach in
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the program. Part of also my approach is that it's based on being aware
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of our states being aware that a lot of our perception interaction with reality is
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determined and it's filtered through our states. So if you or anybody becomes anxious,
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two things will happen. Your brain will start projecting future and will are
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start projecting catastrophic events. Oh my god, I'm going to die, or
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the world's going to end, or I'm going to lose the person I love,
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or if this job is not going to work now, whatever that is,
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right, those are the two things. Anxiety will take you to some
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future event, not in the many moment. It will be still moments from
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now or years or days from now. And most of the time that people
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are chronically anxious, they just think that's reality, that's who they are.
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They don't understand that as long as they're that anxious, that anxiety is still
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casting a spell on their life. If they're that ashamed, that's casting a
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spell. If you're that chronically angry, irritable, that's casting a spell.
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Because each time you're in one of those states, your mind is not really
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your own. It's being driven by the physiology of the state, and that
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includes what you think and amplifying what you feel. Right and instead of seeing
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this as Oh I'm in this state or that state. It's like, oh,
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I'm angry. Well in that moment you are. I don't know about
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you, but I have been so angry than to go to sleep and wake
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up the next day and wonder why I'd be so angry the night before.
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Like it's laughable. Right. In other words, depending on our state,
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it feels like absolute truth or not so much. Me just pause here for
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a moment to thank our sponsors. I want to remind everyone that I'm speaking
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with the doctor Jeffrey Rutstein. Will be back in one second. All right,
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So, wow, I'm listening to you. I'm identifying a lot with
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what you're saying and thinking that it's oftentimes very subtle, and yet these subtleties
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can oftentimes lead people to extreme behavior. Right, And you talked about masochism
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and so forth, And oftentimes it's at those points when people seek help,
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Right, it's often them's not when you're in the midst of these subtleties,
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you're like, well, this is who I am. You know, how
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do you and I want to talk about the course, but how do you
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begin when you're working with someone, begin to work with someone in this state?
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That you're talking about, how do you approach working with someone, Well,
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A bit of what I do right now is I do like I used
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to do with more traditional trauma work, so I would do a little bit
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of education about states. So I do that now with everyone, and about
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the idea that like, for example, if you've had trauma, you're going
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to be chronically chances are you're going to be chronically in fire or flyer.
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You're going to be chronically more drawn towards that lower energy we call dorsal vagel,
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and that has all the range of depression, dissociation, shut down,
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collapse, sane death. It's that whole type of very contracted collapsing energy,
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or we can go high energy, angry or afraid, and that most of
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the people I see have some level of trauma in their background. We talk
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about how that impacts their nervous system, and then their nervous system without them
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knowing it drives them. Right, that unresolved trauma lives in the body and
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lives in the nervous system and tends to make people feel a little bit like
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a ping pole ping pong ball to outside events instead of feeling like they're self
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authoring a little bit. Not that you can control reality, but the feeling
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is that you don't. You're not always getting thrown for such a loop.
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Whether it's suddenly not having feelings, or suddenly having a strong feeling, or
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suddenly feeling really enraged without knowing why, or suddenly needing to cry. Those
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kinds of sudden intrusions really begin to dissiplate and slow down the more that someone
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understands both what we call dysregulation being in one of the defensive states, and
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how to move towards regulation. So regulation the ability to self regulate is not
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saying that we're always in perfect that's not true. It just means that we
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don't have to get stuck longer than necessary, and that's a variable necessary.
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We don't get stuck in an overreaction or an under energy shut down reaction for
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eternity right. And many of us know that if you've had problems with anger
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and you get caught in anger, you can get caught in anger for a
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long time. When I was a kid, I can have a temper.
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I could be angry for a couple of days, you know, and I
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wouldn't know how to get out of it. So when any of us get
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in a state of anger or sadness in tense states for days, it's extremely
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painful, causes tremendous suffering, and it's not helpful in terms of they're not
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doing something wrong, but it's not necessarily doing something that will help someone move
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forward. It just sort of keeps that neural pattern going. So the beginning
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is explaining a bit of that and then helping people understand a few things about
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what they're prone to in their nervous system. We talk a little bit also
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about how this impacts how they perceive their spouse, with their boss, or
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their kids, right, and why they have trouble when their adolescence suddenly raises
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his now masculine voice. He now has a voice two octaves deeper, and
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now when he gets angry, she gets triggered where she didn't get triggered before.
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Right, So she's becoming aware of these changes outside are eliciting different changes
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in her nervous system as well as he now goes from safe in her nervous
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system to unsafe when he's angry. And before we start talking about the book,
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what is it within you, Jeffrey that you feel allows you to do
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this work the way you do it. I don't know if it's allowing.
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I think I feel like I'm able to bring all of my life to my
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work consciously and unconsciously. Right, So, everything that I've gone through individually,
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all the wonderful, lovely things that I've experienced, and all the painful
23:22
things I've experienced and the losses, they have all informed who I am as
23:27
a human and once we understand, especially if I think my practice also helps
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a lot with this getting more specific, because a meditation or awareness practice really
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does train us to be able to be a participant observer, but we're able
23:45
to really be with things as they are, not necessarily totally separated as a
23:51
witness, but being there in a very present and bright way, but being
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more of the process of watching being witness versus getting carried away into the reactivity.
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But you can see the reactivity, you can feel it, you can
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actually have relationship with it, but you don't get carried away. I think
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that my own work like that, as well as my own trainings over the
24:15
years, has got to me where I feel like I can bring that resource
24:19
and help other people find that resource in themselves, which is that until you
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see that fear or shame, for example, are just states and that they're
24:30
just based on the state generated thoughts that are making you afraid. That there's
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actually nothing to be afraid about unless there's something in this very minute, like
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the building's on fire, Yes, be afraid. Run, But if this
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is about the house may be burned down in three days or in ten days,
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it's not the same thing. It's just staying in a loop that's not
24:48
necessary. So yeah, I think it all contributes to me bringing whatever hearing
24:55
that awesome answer. So let's talk about this course. It's in partnership with
25:02
Sounds True. Yeah, and it's called the Healing Trauma Program. Give us,
25:07
give us the snapshot, and let our listeners know when what it's about.
25:12
Who's four and when they can sign up for it? They're interested?
25:18
Right, So the program is a nine month program. It's a long program.
25:22
Right. The program is designed not as an intellectual tour of theory about
25:30
trauma, but it's designed as a deeply experiential dive into learning how to embody
25:37
these particular awareness and somatic based practices, body based practices. So the course
25:45
we found in research, This has been found in other mindfulness programs. For
25:48
example, is that takes nine months to a year to actually embed a skill.
25:53
You can learn a good skill in three months, but to really have
25:56
it embedded to be something that it actually begins to change the way that you
26:00
and relate to yourself in the world, that takes nine to twelve months to
26:03
be set. So that's one of the intentions of this program is really try
26:08
to offer people enough time and enough guidance to those nine months to actually experience
26:12
a transformation in the way that they relate to themselves and then the way that
26:17
they relate to others by seeing their own ability to be dysregulated or hopefully many
26:22
of our folks who graduated the program have increased their ability to self regulate,
26:27
to drop into that much more present We call it the ventral area, the
26:33
ventral vegas response. It's a more relaxed, present, connected, compassionate,
26:38
creative space. It's a non contracted space. And that's a place that is
26:45
healing in and of itself, and it's easeful, right, And that's such
26:49
a tonic for chronic stress, tronic contraction, and so many of us suffer.
26:55
Whether you better shown background or not, so many of us suffer from
26:57
a tendency to be stressed by our own internal dynamics. So for therapists and
27:04
non therapists alike, for anyone, it's for anyone, it's geared if each
27:08
person is we're really gearing this more towards embodying it themselves. So this is
27:12
not so much about teaching it. We may be adding a component this year
27:17
or next year that will be specifically aimed at teaching how that this is taught,
27:22
but the program itself is for someone who really wants to be able to
27:26
not be controlled by their nervous system. And the three trimesters are trauma and
27:30
the body. We go on a dive in terms of how it affects your
27:33
own nervous system and embody, trauma and relationships, how your nervous system impacts
27:37
someone else's nervous system. And each month you're also given practices that are a
27:44
part of the embodiment thing. We have a lot of live meetings that support
27:48
people's learning and people's practicing the second trimester, the third trime. Second trimester
27:53
is trauma and relationships, and the third trimester is trauma and the collective.
27:59
The idea that at this point in time between intergenerational trauma and collective trauma.
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Most of us, if not all of us, have some level of genetic
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trauma in us, even if we ourselves have not experienced the trauma, and
28:12
maybe even our parents didn't. But in likelihood, your grandparents, great grandparents
28:17
or great great grandparents went through a war of famine, of fire, you
28:21
know, and illness, the influenza that somewhere in your personal lineage, there's
28:26
some trauma. That somewhere in your cultural lineage there's trauma. If there's a
28:32
racial lineage, there's trauma. And so in the third part of the the
28:37
program, we look at the idea that so much of justsregulated behavior is actually
28:44
caused by this lineage upon lineage of unmetabolized trauma. Wow, but I think
28:52
that that supports the tendency for people to ease into hatred instead of into connection.
28:59
That it's easy to make a judgment and hate and other than to form
29:03
connections based on we're all human. Go over that again. I just want
29:08
to make sure I get that to ease into hatre say more about that.
29:14
The idea is that it's easier to have hatred, to be afraid, and
29:21
to be angry. That's easier for us to defend ourselves with than we find
29:25
that we hold tight to our identity. But this is mostly also needs someone
29:30
that we can be afraid of or hateful at. And so this tendency,
29:37
which is evolutionarily defined, but it runs. It was no one thought about
29:42
this. This is just what's occurred in the nervous system over time since we
29:47
were just mammals. The idea is that this is what's running. It's this
29:52
autopilot of needing to other, needing to have aggression, needing to have someone
29:57
who's wrong. You can see this in personal relationships, and you can see
30:02
this between countries, between religious groups, in between political groups. It's happening
30:06
more and more. That's really primarily coming from this idea of a very binary
30:14
hate good bad dichotomy. When you're more regulated, you're able to connect with
30:22
differences and similarities without being threatened by them. When I'm angry, it's hard
30:29
for me to do that. Right, So that third trimester sort of supports
30:36
this idea that the more regulated you are, the more that you can offer
30:41
that kind of healing just by your presence alone. Right, it's not even
30:48
it's because it's not even what people say it's the energy that goes with that,
30:52
it's the tone that goes with right. There's always been political debate,
30:57
but today's political debate seem is to have more and much more hostility and aggression
31:02
in it than ever before. So it's more raw, it's more raw in
31:06
the air. And I think that if people understand that this is really state
31:12
defined and that more of us that can sort of become aware of and connected
31:18
with how our own state impacts our ability to be present, to not be
31:22
enslaved to our past, but to actually be free and liberated more about how
31:26
we want to live our life. Now that the more that people are doing
31:30
that, the more the less you'll be impacted by other people's extreme state dysregulation,
31:38
the less that you'll be able, that you'll be up sleepless nights because
31:42
there's a lot of people up sleepless nights right like that, there's that energy
31:47
or that worry about worry, right. Wow, So basically this program is
31:53
for all of us. Yes, Yes, sounds amazing. So the Healing
31:59
Trauma Program, we'll have that linked up here at the show notes pages,
32:04
the Trauma Diapers podcast dot com. When can people sign up for this?
32:08
When is the next court. So the next cohort will begin in January February
32:15
of twenty twenty four. The registration will open up in October. You got
32:19
full this year by the end of November, so if people are interested they
32:24
can look it up there they can go to sounds true. I think we
32:27
have the link from the other year for that economic can send them to you.
32:31
And again we have thirteen great speakers Gabor Mate, Peter Levine, Rasmermanokam,
32:38
Ruth King, Thomas Hooble, Ariel Schwartz, Judas Blackstone. We have
32:47
some really really wonderful folks with us who are teaching each month as well.
32:52
So there will be great and deep knowledge offered about the dynamics of trauma,
33:00
and then there will also be this whole intense practice support that's also in there.
33:05
Wow, sounds incredibly rich. Jeffrey, You're incredible. I mean,
33:08
you're so inspiring. The way you are able to articulate what you're doing and
33:15
bring your experience and heart into it is why I love having you on this
33:22
podcast. I want to thank you so much. Thank you, thank you
33:25
for having me. I always have a pleasure being with you. All Right,
33:29
we'll be in touch thank you, thank you guys,