Latest / The Wilmac Wire / Roxanne Van Gundy | 911 Culture, Telecommunicator Wellness, & Technology on the Front Lines

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Roxanne Van Gundy | 911 Culture, Telecommunicator Wellness, & Technology on the Front Lines · The Wilmac Wire

• Emily Miller: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome back to the Will MacWire. Thank you so much for joining us today. Now, one of the themes that keeps coming across the conversations that we're having with public safety leaders is wellness. Every time it does, I become a bit more educated and it hits a little bit harder. The more we dig into what 911 telecommunicators experience on a daily basis, the more clear it becomes that this is one of the most important conversations in Okay, let's get started. We'll kick things off by introducing our lovely guest today who is joining us from Emporia, Kansas. She's a 20 plus year public safety veteran who started as a dispatcher in 2005. She spent four years supervising dispatch for the Alaska State Troopers and Fairbanks. She's now the director of Lyon County Emergency Communication Center, which started in 2018. She's led the effort that got dispatchers reclassified as emergency responders in Kansas. She's the co-chair of Nina's wellness committee where she helped publish the first ANSI accredited wellness standard at 911. She's a frequent national speaker on dispatcher wellness burnout and the real human impact of answering 911 calls. Currently the first vice president of Nina and the future president of Nina this coming summer. Welcome to the WillMacWire, Roxy Van Gundy. Thank you so much for joining us on the WillMacWire today, Roxy. We're so glad you're here. public safety right now. Today's guest talked a lot about wellness. In essence, I'd say she's made it a large part of her mission. She leads with a lot of heart and fire for the people that are on her 911 center floor. And that comes through in her conversation today. We sat down with Roxy Van Gundy, Director of Lyon County Emergency Communication Center in Emporia, Kansas, and first Vice President of NEENA, the National Emergency Number Association. Roxanne Van Gundy: Bye guys! Thanks for having me. Emily Miller: We're pumped to have you on the podcast. Wonderful. Okay, so we'll get things kind of rocking and rolling by starting with an icebreaker segment we call This or That. So like I mentioned, when we first hopped on three questions, I'll give you two options for each question and you just choose what you prefer. So we'll start with advocating in DC or speaking at a conference. Roxanne Van Gundy: Glad to be here. Emily Miller: And yes, that does mean she is on track to become Nina President this summer, which is a big deal. Now here's what you can expect out of today's conversation with Roxy. Of course, we started things off with her career journey from starting in Kansas and growing up in Kansas to working in Alaska and 9-1-1 to returning back to Kansas and how that shaped the leader she is today. Again, we go back to Roxanne Van Gundy: Okay. Speaking at a conference. Yeah. Steve McDonnell: Thank Emily Miller: Yeah. So how many conferences would you say you've spoken at over the years? and wellness in 911 and the staffing crisis. It's very real and very urgent that she shared her thoughts on. We dug into the fight to reclassify 911 telecommunicators as protective service workers on a federal level and how that differs on the state level. We hit on how Roxy is bringing AI into Lyon County in a thoughtful, people-first way with a virtual assistant named Betty and some... Roxanne Van Gundy: ⁓ gosh, I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you. It's been that many, but I love going to conferences because you get the chance to really connect with folks who are doing the work every single day. And I'm a country girl from Kansas, so going to Washington, DC is a little bit overwhelming for me. So that's really not who I am. And so I just, love to be able to get to go to conference ⁓ venues, even national conference and connect with folks who really want to learn. Emily Miller: too many to count. Thank Steve McDonnell: Okay. Emily Miller: Yeah. Big news that we discussed, that Lyon County just got a brand new $3 million emergency communication center approved after 13 years of working out of a basement. So big congratulations to Roxy and her team at Lyon County. Thank you so much to Roxy for joining us on the podcast. By the time this airs, hopefully we'll have seen each other in person at the Texas Public Safety Conference that's at the end of March and beginning of April. It was a really lovely conversation to have with her and very educational. Let's get into it. and then. Roxanne Van Gundy: get better. Emily Miller: Yeah, okay. Other question off the cuff there. ⁓ Do you remember what was the largest like audience you spoke in front of? Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Ooh, I, um, APCO a couple of years ago, I had a packed house, about 300. So, um, it was, was pretty, it was pretty scary, but it was really great. It turned out really well. Emily Miller: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. That's intense. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Okay. Next one. Go ahead. Yeah. Steve McDonnell: out. I have one side question on that. How often do you have to go to Washington for stuff? Roxanne Van Gundy: every year now on the board. we go to 911, goes to Washington. That's a Nina event. ⁓ this year was my year to kind of, that's my conference as the first vice president. So I gave the speech, the welcome speech, ⁓ which was a little daunting, but, yeah, I made a great joke about Canadian hockey and how our Canadian director, Holly, she, she's at the home of the second worst hockey team in the world. So. Steve McDonnell: Yeah. Roxanne Van Gundy: It was really great. It happened right in good timing. Steve McDonnell: It's good for the ice quickly. Emily Miller: Yeah, I love it. Okay, next question. Summers in Alaska or summers in Kansas? Yeah. Roxanne Van Gundy: Summers in Alaska. ⁓ my goodness. Summers in Kansas are brutal. It's the worst. Yeah, no. Summers in Alaska, 60 below is worth it for the like two weeks we have beautiful summer in Alaska. It's worth it. Emily Miller: I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah, two weeks. So like, I was gonna say full days of sunlight. Did you experience that? Steve McDonnell: Is it? Go ahead. Roxanne Van Gundy: ⁓ yeah, ⁓ yeah, yeah, I lived far enough north that it was only, I'd say maybe two hours of dusk in the summer, but it never got completely dark. Emily Miller: That's crazy. Okay, last one. On the 911 floor or brainstorming new ideas for the center. Roxanne Van Gundy: Ooh, that's a really hard one because I enjoy getting in there and doing the stuff, but I also enjoy kind of brainstorming and doing projects. So both, maybe, it just depends. Yeah. Emily Miller: Yeah, depends on the day. Yeah, completely fair. ⁓ I love it. All right. Thanks, Roxy. Easy enough. We like to just break the ice, get things started that way. ⁓ But we'll get right into the conversation today. And we always like to start with career journey and how a person got to where they are today. So can you start by telling us a little bit more about your background and how you ended up in emergency communications? Roxanne Van Gundy: Well, I tell people I don't have like an amazing origin story a lot of people in public safety are like my dad was a cop and my brothers and my uncle that was not me I come from farmers and truck drivers and I don't have that kind of origin story But ⁓ my husband who was my boyfriend at the time He worked at the jail and he knew that I was not very happy in the position I was in at that point and he's like, you know You're pretty bossy and you like to know everything. There's this great position open at the dispatch center across the street. I think you'd be really good at it. And I was just enough disgruntled in my current job that I was like, sure, I'll do anything. And it turned out to be the career for me. So I sort of fell into it, to be honest. Steve McDonnell: you Wow. Emily Miller: That's wonderful. And so obviously you went to Alaska for four years. What took you to Alaska and then what brought you back to Kansas? Roxanne Van Gundy: ⁓ So my husband and I had two sets of friends, one that he had worked with and one that I had gone to high school with that were in Alaska. One was moving back and my friends from high school were already there. In Fairbanks there's two military installations, so my friends were in the military and my friend said, hey you know my husband's getting ready to redeploy. I would love to have you come here and just like maybe you might like it and maybe I could have some friends and my husband's coworker, he was getting ready to move back up there and ⁓ they said just come for a week and see what you think. ⁓ So we went up there and ⁓ I'd say by day three, we were pretty convinced that that was the place for us. ⁓ And so we came back home and saved for about a year. Emily Miller: Yeah. Steve McDonnell: Bye. Roxanne Van Gundy: And then we sold all of our belongings that did not fit in a Ford Taurus. And we drove 4,000 miles in our first year of marriage. So I don't recommend that. We're still married, thankfully, but I don't recommend that. ⁓ But that's kind of what brought me to Alaska. We didn't intend on being in public safety. We had gotten a job as host parents in a boarding school for village kids. But there was a Steve McDonnell: Wow. you Roxanne Van Gundy: huge wildfire that had happened right as we were coming up there and the forestry group of firemen took over the school we were supposed to be living in so we were homeless and then our job wasn't going to happen and so we had just enough money to get there and get established and so that delay caused us to lose that job and lose our housing and so you know, you kind of have to figure out if that's what you really want when you're there and you don't have a job or a place to live. And it just sort of all fell into place and we found a place to live. And I worked for a utility company for a little while while I had some applications in for some dispatch centers and happened to fall into my first choice at the troopers. So, yeah. Steve McDonnell: All ⁓ Wow. Out of curiosity, what time of year did you guys do your visit that convinced you to move up there? Roxanne Van Gundy: Summer, summer, so the good time. I had no idea what I was getting into for one. So, yeah. Emily Miller: Good timing. Steve McDonnell: Thank Emily Miller: Yeah, ⁓ my gosh, I can imagine. So like, so then you came back to Kansas after a couple years in Alaska. What drove that? Roxanne Van Gundy: Well, I did. ⁓ I came home for Christmas one year ⁓ and my mother was very ill. I kind of knew that time was short. You kind of get that inclination that maybe things are starting to sunset. And ⁓ I'm a mom's girl, so I needed to come home. So I came back and asked my old job, like, can I get back in our center? And yeah, I just came back right where I left off. Emily Miller: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. Go ahead, Steve. Steve McDonnell: What were there any distinct differences from the center you worked at up in Fairbanks from the center in Kansas? Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah, so I went there thinking, ⁓ I'm a dispatcher. Like, this will be easy. No, no, no, no, no. ⁓ The state troopers and the state of Alaska, every place does something different. ⁓ You know, the common phrase is you've seen one dispatch center, you've only seen one dispatch center. I didn't know that then. ⁓ In Alaska, there's a lot of different, you know, types of things that we have to worry about, the distance, the cold. A lot of cultural differences that we didn't have here. And they also have wildlife troopers. So had to learn a lot about wildlife and wildlife law and a lot of stuff that was not even on my radar. Steve McDonnell: It's a different world up there. Roxanne Van Gundy: totally different, but the greatest part that I always tell people is that Alaskans want you to succeed. So, you know, I had so many troopers who wanted me to understand why things were the way they were and why a doll sheep had to have a certain type of horns and, you know, they were really good about explaining that kind of stuff. Steve McDonnell: next Emily Miller: Yeah, okay. So you can you talk to us a little bit too about kind of your your Nina experience? We touched on it a little bit when we hopped on, but can you talk through you started in Kansas Nina and now you've moved up to the national level. So can you talk through that? Roxanne Van Gundy: I know. Yeah, you know, the funny part about my Nina journey is I didn't really know Nina existed until I came back to Kansas and got into this director role. I knew about APCO. We were really APCO heavy state. But Nina really wasn't something we had here and I didn't really know much about it. I got into Kansas, Nina, because I was interested in helping and serving, but I didn't have a lot of time to invest. So I had asked somebody on the Kansas Nina board, like, hey, is this a really heavy lift? What am I getting into? And she's like, come on, you're going to be a part of it. They just sort of make you come on. So ⁓ I got roped into that, which turned into ⁓ working on first responder status here in our state. ⁓ I was starting to get some notice about some wellness. ⁓ presentations that I had done. So that eventually got the door open for me to become the co-chair of the wellness committee on the national level. And so it just sort of kind of stepped into other things. ⁓ you know, after my mom died, I always thought about, you know, so many things she had to say no to because of me, because she was a single mom. And so after she died, I tried to... work on saying yes to things even if it was really scary and so you know a lot of my Nino journey I wasn't really sure what I was getting into but I'm like sure let's let's try it out and here we are. Steve McDonnell: Mm-hmm. Emily Miller: Yeah, that's wonderful and powerful too. Like you said, the opportunities kind of kept presenting themselves, it sounds like, and you kept jumping at it, which is wonderful. And now, like we talked about in the intro, like future president of Nina, that's incredible. ⁓ good scary though. ⁓ So what, as the first vice president role currently, like what does that mean? What do you do in that role? And then how has it changed as you move into the president? Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Yeah. Steve McDonnell: Yeah, you're right. Roxanne Van Gundy: scary. Yeah. So the chair officers, so second VP, first VP, the president, and immediate past president, we oversee as the liaison for all of the committees. So we split up all the existing committees and we have to attend all of their meetings and help them get past hurdles, help them understand the NINA side of things. As the first vice president, one of my duties, my special duties is chairing the finance committee for NINA. I oversee the budget, how we're spending money, what we're spending money on, what we're investing in. ⁓ And then all of us are required to travel. So we split up conferences. There are certain conferences that ⁓ higher chair officers get to go to, like the stuff that's abroad. I've gone to Canada a couple of times this year, but we try to make sure that there's a representative at every conference in the nation. that once one. So ⁓ it's a lot of travel and a lot of committee meetings and a lot of it's a lot of extra work that I think sometimes people aren't aware of. It's a whole other job. So it's definitely a time commitment and something that I'm honored to do, but it is a lot of work for sure. Steve McDonnell: Wow. Emily Miller: Yeah. Yeah. Steve McDonnell: How long do you guys normally sit in these positions? A year. Roxanne Van Gundy: A year, yes, so it's a year. Once you're elected as second vice president, then you're locked in until you're immediate past president. Steve McDonnell: Okay, ⁓ so you're locked in for those four years. ⁓ Roxanne Van Gundy: Mm-hmm. Yep. Emily Miller: Okay, very cool. All right, so we'll move into kind of how you're running your 911 center in Lyon County, but I'd like to start and ask like how, if you felt your leadership style has changed or when you came into 911 center leadership in that first leadership position, like did you have anything in mind that you're like, I wanna prioritize this, this is how I wanna lead? Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Well, I came into a pretty difficult situation, to be quite frank. ⁓ I came into being a director as somebody who had worked in the front line. So I knew the problems that had been left in the path of a former director. ⁓ So I think coming in my first year, I really wanted to fix the major problems. I wanted to... work on getting the people to understand that we're all a part of the collective story. It's not just me because I'm the leader, it's all of us. We're all riding this new path. We had a lot of folks in positions that had no idea what that meant. Like, I'm a supervisor. Okay, what is that? So it was a lot of empowering folks and talking people through things and holding people's hands and you know, having a lot of accountability that had to happen so we could get everybody on the same page. I think over the years as we've worked through the problems and we've gotten to a better place, now we're working on adding and growing and going into different directions. ⁓ you know, I think my leadership has been able to kind of morph into something that's more ⁓ people-centered and Steve McDonnell: you Roxanne Van Gundy: I want them to make the decisions. They're the experts. I'm just here to remove the hurdles out of their way. I just think those first couple of years, it just required me to be really hands-on and really, really kind of micromanage-y, and that's really not me. I want you to make decisions. I want you to tell me what you think will work. So we've kind of morphed into that as we've gone along. Emily Miller: Yeah, very cool. So communication empowerment love love those two pieces and like you said it ties back to a lot of what you talk about on on LinkedIn as a fan of you myself. You talk a lot about people and people first and the wellness component which will dig into a little bit more. But before we go into that, I'm curious what your day to day looks like now as the director of Lyon County. Roxanne Van Gundy: No. ⁓ Well, that's a little different now. Being on the NENA board, that's a lot of trying to make sure that I'm present here and that my folks feel like I'm present here even when I'm not here. We live in a very small center in a very cramped place. so a lot of times we have to connect virtually through email and that kind of stuff. But I try really hard to. to make sure every day that I get in and talk to everybody. And if I haven't seen you in a day or two, I'm gonna go seek you out. But day to day, I'm a one woman show. My number two is actually working a shift due to staffing. ⁓ So it's a lot and every day is kind of fighting the fires and making sure that I absorb the things that are coming our way so they don't have to because they don't need that. They need to focus on. the business and so you know that's a lot on one person's shoulders sometimes. Emily Miller: Yeah, definitely. like I kind of alluded to before, like you talk often about culture in your 911 center and sustaining, building and sustaining a healthy culture in 911 is a lot different than a business. So how do you think about culture in your center? How do you approach it? And like, how does your focus on developing people play into that? Steve McDonnell: Bye. Roxanne Van Gundy: I think that we have got to get past, in 911, we're very controlling and we have to have control of every single thing. And I think a good culture starts with letting people make mistakes and not having that control. Understanding that if somebody makes a mistake, it's a learning moment. I think at first, a big part of our culture and our positive change. was talking about stuff that had gone wrong versus me coming in and being like, you did this wrong. That's how we were treated for so long. And nobody learns anything from that. So we had a lot of family meetings about issues and calls that went south. Tell me how you got there. Tell me what was going on that made you make that decision. I want to be curious as a leader. And I think that that's driven into my people is they want to be curious as frontline and supervisors, ⁓ asking questions. think all of that drives positive culture change. ⁓ I talked to a lot about if we want to look at ourselves as professionals, we have to act like professionals, right? And before, you know, we didn't really have that structure. It was, you did this wrong and I'm the leader and you're going to listen. That's not professional. So. Emily Miller: Yeah. Roxanne Van Gundy: You know, we want to honor each other for the work we do. We want to honor each other's skills and abilities. And everybody's a person here. So we're not going to talk to each other like dispatchers. We're going to talk to each other like people. And, you know, that takes some conversations and culture shifts. you know, sometimes I don't get it right. So it's being humble when I get it wrong. And just, you know, trying to keep the culture open and honest and Emily Miller: Mm-hmm. Roxanne Van Gundy: human, that's really important. Steve McDonnell: The old way probably doesn't help wellness either. The job's tough enough. And to have, to be worrying about someone barking at you on top of what you're trying to do can't be good. Roxanne Van Gundy: No! Yeah, it is. It is. Well, and I think, that's the thing we all learned from this very paramilitary structure where it was the leader was always in charge. I'm not in charge. I'm the director, but I think that these heroes, they're in charge. They write our story. They represent our center. They're the ones who are protecting our partners every single day. I'm just the lady that keeps the lights on. Steve McDonnell: What you mentioned the word heroes and I think Emily alluded to at the beginning of this. We've been in public safety for 30 plus years, Wilmat, but as a reseller of nice and we have 300 customers. We've been in the PSAP world. ⁓ but I myself have just kind of taken a dive the past two or three years. Once we started building our own products and it is Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Steve McDonnell: eye-opening to me to see myself included, I will raise my hand, but the general public is not aware of what these people are doing, how difficult their job is, and kind of, you know, I don't want to say the treatment of them is bad, but there's certain things that they don't get that other first-line responders, I'm sure we'll get to the 9-1-1 SAVES Act, which I'm just shocked to know about and learn about. Roxanne Van Gundy: No. Steve McDonnell: and see, and it's still sitting there not passed. I'm sure you guys are working on it, but it's very interesting to see that. And I think there's a gap that the general public just is not aware of. Roxanne Van Gundy: Right. I fully agree. You said it perfectly. I think that, you know, to most of the public, they're like, that's common sense. Of course they're a part of public safety. Of course they, you know, are just as important. I think there's far more public members who think, I'm on line. Yeah, absolutely. But to tell them that we're classified as administrative personnel on a federal level, that blows their mind because, you know, I don't know any secretaries that give, you know, Emily Miller: Yeah. and Steve McDonnell: Yes. Roxanne Van Gundy: baby delivery instructions. I don't know any secretaries who have walked somebody through how to plug a bullet hole. You know, that's not a secretarial task. And so when you really break it down to the public in that way, and I mean, you've got to be brutal about it, it really does open their eyes to what we face every day. Emily Miller: Yeah, right. Steve McDonnell: Yeah. And I think hearing the actual stories, they're tough to hear. Maybe the general public doesn't want to hear. But a lot of this goes right into the gap of wellness that is out there right now for the call takers and dispatchers that it needs to get better. But some of the resources maybe aren't being provided because of this gap in how you guys are classified. Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Right? Exactly. And I think that that's something too that we have to work on educating 911 about because I don't even think 911 understands fully that, you know, if we were classified in a different way, perhaps we would have a way to, you know, study our profession and really have some concrete data of understanding what these calls are doing to us every single day. We can guess, we can... We can speculate all we want, but we really don't have any kind of quantitative data that says Steve has taken 2,911 calls this year and here's how it's impacting him. We don't know that the entire state of Kansas, those dispatchers, 20 % of them have PTSD symptoms. We're guessing, but we really don't know. And I think one of the biggest drivers of being reclassified is not only just to right or wrong, but it's to open up some of that. ⁓ You know, you can go online and see how many ⁓ law enforcement officers or members of the fire service have taken their own life. You really can't find that for dispatchers. ⁓ So I think that, you know, the wellness component is really, for me, the key driver of why we should pass the SAVES Act because we need people to really dive deep into what this is doing to us. ⁓ Dr. Michelle Lilly did a great study in 2015. Emily Miller: Thank Roxanne Van Gundy: But she surveyed 900 dispatchers out of thousands and thousands and thousands. And that was 2015, so a lot has happened since then. So I hope we've done a good job of educating 911 about that, but I think we could do a little bit better. Steve McDonnell: Who helps nudge this along in Washington? Is that Nina and APCO or is that actual politicians, a combination of everything? Roxanne Van Gundy: Yes. So Nina and APCO both have public relations groups that drive this. We have lobbyists that work for us on our behalf. NASDAQ has a lobbyist as well that works for them. So we're very connected on both sides of the aisle and in both houses trying to push forth this legislation. S725 has passed the Senate. That's the Enhancing First Response Act that Marsha Blackburn and Amy Klobuchar introduced in the Senate. sitting on Mike Johnson's desk in the house trying to get across the finish line. So that's really the farthest we've ever gotten. The Saves Act to get completely and unanimously passed in the Senate is a big deal. So we're hoping that the House can pick it up and we can get that totally finished. That would be great. Emily Miller: Thanks. Yeah. Steve McDonnell: I would assume it's pretty bipartisan. Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah, you know, the great thing about 911 goes to Washington and something that I really like to drive home with first time members is look at all of these people in Congress that care about you. They would not show up to this event. They would not allow you to come and visit them and talk about 911 if they did not care about you. So, you know, it's Republican, it's Democrat, it's everybody. And I think everybody sees, you know, the importance and they understand the importance. know, NG911 is another topic that we're really pushing ⁓ in Congress. And I think it's common sense. They just aren't quite sure where the money is going to come from. Emily Miller: Yeah. Steve McDonnell: Yeah, and we've talked about that on the podcast a couple times. another surprising thing for me is coming from selling solutions and implementing solutions in contact, like regular contact centers and then financial services trading floors, which are call taking industries to see 9-1-1 is pretty much the most mission critical. Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Steve McDonnell: call taking industry you have. It's literally life and death, not dollars. their technology is years ahead. granted, we're definitely improving and AI's coming and things are moving, but. One would think that 901 centers would have some of the biggest budgets because it's the first call coming in and they need to be able to do this stuff quick. So that's been a little surprise to me the past few years. How difficult it is for some PSAPs and some counties to get the right budgets from the state. Roxanne Van Gundy: You know, the unfortunate part, especially coming from a rural state, you know, our 911 funding comes off a population, right? So if you live in a county that has a population of a million people, you're gonna get a lot of 911 fees coming from that, like you're set. But if you live in a county that has a population of 6,000 people, that's not a whole lot of 911 fees. You know a good hunk of my 911 money goes back to the state to pay for my 911 system so it it it's not Even when you're in a place where it's it's the money is good And you have a good population and you're getting a good flow of funding It doesn't keep up with how much stuff cost and so you know a majority of the money I'm getting is going back out in technology and bills that I have to pay every month Steve McDonnell: Yum. Yeah. Roxanne Van Gundy: And I don't think the public understands that either. It's not just free money that we just get to do whatever with. So it's a difficult balance. I think that something that I've really worked hard to kind of bring light to is that I think in 911, we forget that there's a lot of haves and have nots. And there are centers that are very well funded and communities that work very hard to make sure that their 911 center is. Steve McDonnell: Thank Roxanne Van Gundy: truly state of the art, you know, but there are some counties that don't have, they just don't have that option. And so I've really tried to talk with my vendors that work with us, you know, how can we level that playing field because those small centers deserve just as much technology and assistance as I do, or as New York City does, you know, we all should be on the same playing field because we're all doing. Emily Miller: Yeah. Roxanne Van Gundy: the same job and sometimes it's more difficult when you have one person who's the one seat center versus somebody who has eight or nine co-workers to help share the load. ⁓ You know, we need those kind of technology solutions and the money just isn't there. Emily Miller: Interesting. Before we move into that technology conversation a little bit further Roxy, I'm curious because in my intro I called out that you led the effort that got dispatchers reclassified as emergency responders in Kansas. So how does that differ from the state and federal level with what you guys are trying to do? Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Well, unfortunately, know, statewide recognition is great and I do not. I'm so grateful that our state views us in that way, but it really doesn't do a whole lot for us. It does open the door for us to be included into some conversations that we weren't before, but it doesn't change our retirement. It doesn't mean we get paid more. It doesn't. It's just words on the federal level. you know, that's going to open up funding that could open up, you know, the possibility of us being studied, you know, for psychological purposes that could open up ⁓ more states being able to put PTSD and PTSD I injuries on their workers compensation. There's a tons of tons of states who won't do that because federally we're not classified as first responders. So I think federally the classification is actually Steve McDonnell: research. Roxanne Van Gundy: more valuable because it's gonna push some of these states to make some decisions they've been dragging their heels on. And hopefully in Kansas, that allows them to put some more meat behind the fact that we're first responders here. Steve McDonnell: Yeah. Emily Miller: Yeah, I guess let me ask for our listeners that aren't familiar with what's going on there. What would you tell them about the 9-1-1 SAFE Act that you're trying to promote to increase awareness? Roxanne Van Gundy: Well, I think that the SAVES Act, Norma Torres, she brought that up initially in the House. Norma Torres is a congresswoman from California. She's a former LAPD dispatcher. So she gets it. She understands the hardships. She knows what's happening. And I think her goal in that was always to bring awareness, you know, the mental health aspects, the technology needs that we're not getting. So I think the SAVES Act and the now Enhancing First Response Act really kind of opens up doors for here's what they need, here's the support that they need, and here's the support you're required to give them. Because right now that's not a thing. ⁓ So I think that even well-intentioned people need rules and that's why laws need to be created. Emily Miller: Yeah, yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing about your experience with that. Like Steve said, it's been really top of mind for us lately. All the public safety leaders we talked to are like, let's bring as much awareness to this as possible. So appreciate you sharing your perspective. Okay, moving into kind of the technology realm and what you're innovating at Lyon County. So you recently launched an AI pilot to handle non-emergency calls. Roxanne Van Gundy: Bye. Yeah. Emily Miller: What drove that decision? How has it gone so far? Are there other opportunities for AI that you see within your center? Roxanne Van Gundy: Well, Emily, think you probably know if you follow me on LinkedIn, I'm the touchy-feely one, right? You know, I'm all about the wellness and the happy vibes. I think that Betty stemmed from that. You know, I was going in the center and seeing my folks get pummeled. I mean, literally assaulted with calls for 12 solid hours a day. And even if that's not, you know, a bunch of really bad 911 calls, that can be so mentally draining to just call after call after call after call. Emily Miller: I'm Yup. Roxanne Van Gundy: And all that does is burn people out, drives people away. And we have a hard enough time keeping people in 911. We need to do whatever we can to support them. So that was really where Betty kind of came to life. I think that we have found immediately an impact by bringing in AI automation. And she's only right now doing 10 call types and transferring a certain call to our jail. and they can already tell the difference. So I'm really working on what the next step in that is. So there's more call types coming. We also do rangeland burning here in Kansas. So burn season is a really difficult time for us. So we're gonna work with our company to ⁓ get burns into Betty and then she can put those on our burn map. So we're trying to find ways where we can streamline the workflows. and make it so we're taking just those little annoying things off their plates so they can really focus on the business of 911. Steve McDonnell: Yeah, as someone who leads a company, AI company, I think one of the biggest things that we try to echo is the AI should really help everyone's wellness because it should be taking away the tests and the mundane tasks that people look at as kind of a pain and that are overburdening them. leading the burnout exactly you said, then you have turnover, then the whole retention and hiring, and it just starts a nasty ball. And if you could free up their time as much as possible ⁓ to do the important stuff and have enough breaks, I think that's how people should be looking at AI applications. ⁓ know, LinkedIn, for example, can be a nasty place. ⁓ Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Steve McDonnell: talking about AI, but I think that's really where AI fits in public safety and it should help wellness out quite a bit. Roxanne Van Gundy: And I think the big fear, and just to be transparent, I think the big fear is that we're gonna allow it to take over these mundane tasks. What else are we gonna allow it to do? And I don't believe at this point, from what I've seen so far, there is an argument for AI to take over 911 calls. I think that there's a real human component that needs to stay involved in emergency services. But... To be afraid of it, to do some of these small tasks, it's mind-boggling to me because we have already seen such a difference and only on a very small scale. ⁓ It's a supported tool. It's a tool to support our folks and I don't know why anyone would question why that wouldn't be a good thing. Emily Miller: Yeah, 100%. We always talk about human in the loop. Like it's the way to keep it grounded. And like you said, not replacing people by any means, just empowering them more. Okay, so you mentioned it a little bit before, but Lyon County just got a brand new $3 million emergency communication center approved after you operated out of a basement. You mentioned that. First of all, congratulations. Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Steve McDonnell: Wow. Congrats. Roxanne Van Gundy: Thank you. Emily Miller: Second of all, what does that mean for your team? Like what's the game plan moving forward with that? Roxanne Van Gundy: ⁓ so we actually went through, and I think I kind of mentioned this on LinkedIn, Emily, but we went through a really long time where we looked for a lot of different options of where we could go because, you know, 13 years ago we were promised this was temporary solution. You guys are just going to be here for a few months until we can find a place for you. Well, 13 years later, we're still here. and we just could never find something that really worked. the that kind of checked all the boxes. ⁓ Our sheriff was able to obtain a DOJ grant to build a new range. They have a range, it's not great how it's set up, it's kind of clunky. And ⁓ he also has some of his different apparatus, like his MRAP and stuff like that, in different places all across the city. And he wanted a place where he could build a range, get all of his stuff in one place. and potentially build us a training facility because we don't have a lot of training facilities here. ⁓ Most of our conference areas are public, so we have to fight the public for space to have training. So that was kind of his general goal. And we got into a conversation of, what would it look like if we just expanded the goal just a little bit? So that's how we came into the conversation. ⁓ I think the game plan for us is getting the range up and going because that has a time limit of when that money needs to be spent. So that's kind of the first phase of our project. And we're getting into the second phase of building. So they're starting to lay foundation and do that kind of stuff. And we should be there probably if Kansas weather holds out sometime around March of 27. Emily Miller: Okay, that's awesome. It's really exciting. Steve McDonnell: That's exciting, congrats. Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah, it is really exciting. And the cool thing too about Kansas is Kansas has a mobile dispatch center that our dispatch centers are allowed to use. It's a brand new thing. And it has five consoles that are in a bus that they can just bring to you. So I think that that is going to be really handy at the perfect time so we can move into that bus, get all of our stuff ready, and then move into the new location. So we won't have to be half here and half there. We can just be all there. Emily Miller: Yeah. Steve McDonnell: Yeah, there you go. Emily Miller: Right, right. Totally, tangent here, but that totally just reminded me of the episode of the office, the work bus office, the work bus episode. But that's wonderful. That's such good news. I'm so glad that you were able to make progress on that. All right, as I just have a couple more questions for you, and then Steve, if you have any more, feel free to chime in. But we talked about this quite a bit already with what you're seeing in Nina at the national level. Are there any other like... Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Emily Miller: topics of conversation that are at the forefront of like that executive board's minds. Roxanne Van Gundy: You know, we have really worked hard to create a strategic plan ⁓ where we're keeping all of the current balls in the basket and making sure that we're thoughtfully developing things. ⁓ Our education group is really so valuable to Nina and is very, very busy. They get a lot of interest. And so they're working on adding instructors, adding some different courses and growing that because it is a money driver for us. And it's also a valuable tool for people on the front lines. So education is a big thought for us. Right now, there is a big conversation going on across 911 about FIFA. Everybody's getting geared up for FIFA. Nina just put out a pretty awesome white paper about some of the potential hurdles with FIFA and international calling. Emily Miller: ⁓ yeah. Steve McDonnell: you Roxanne Van Gundy: So that's a really new thing that's just come out there. We're working on getting geared up for our national conference. ⁓ The wellness committee, I've been working with them. They have a wellness pavilion every national conference. So that's a lot of components and working parts that we're trying to get set. But really, you know, we want to make Nina stable and we want to grow it thoughtfully. You know, our new CEO is very fiscally driven and, you know, he wants to make sure that our Emily Miller: Yep. Roxanne Van Gundy: ⁓ organization lasts for years and years to come. So we want to make decisions that make sense, but we also want to make sure that we're offering our folks value for their membership as well. Emily Miller: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Yeah, I was just noting, because I've been knee deep in conference planning. And I was checking out the Neenah Conference the other day. And I always enjoy seeing that well, they typically set a space aside for wellness, dedicated just to getting back into it. Maybe there's puppies, you never know. I absolutely love it. All right, before I close, Steve, is there anything else you'd want to chat with Roxy about? Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah. Yep. There's puppies, massages, the whole nine. So it's great. Steve McDonnell: Just one question I'm curious, I normally ask this to the PCF directors, and it has to do with wellness, because I think wellness affects, obviously, as we were just talking about, turnover. In a turnover situation, how hard has recruiting been, and getting someone up and going, actually, in a live seat, how long does that take? Roxanne Van Gundy: You know, I tell new hires that you are coming into a job where you have to know a little bit about everything. so for some people that might take six months, for some people that might take a year. ⁓ We subscribe to the theory that as long as you're progressing, we're still going to work with you. If you're still moving forward, even at a stale pace, you know, we're going to get you there. ⁓ But some centers have very strict timelines because they need to turn over and get people in the seats. A problem that rural centers have right now is people don't wanna move to rural places. I live very close to Kansas City, so a lot of my hiring pool wants to go to Kansas City. They wanna go where there's things to do. There's people and nightclubs and stuff that they can shop at. We don't have that here, so. Steve McDonnell: Yeah. Yeah. Roxanne Van Gundy: It's increasingly becoming hard to find ways to attract talent and keep them here for a long period of time. When I first started, I think the retention of a dispatcher was like seven to 10 years. Now it's three to five. I would assume that soon it will be two to three. It's very short and we're spending a ton of money trying to get the Steve's and Emily's going in the seat. So it's a big. loss of money as well as that time frame that we're keeping them goes. Steve McDonnell: Yeah, yeah, that's what we keep hearing is that and the earth time scales on par with a lot of what we've heard and some of them are even hiring three people knowing only one's going to make it. it's. Roxanne Van Gundy: Oh yeah, oh yeah, and I tell my husband that a lot, that if I hire five people, we might get one out of it. And that's just the reality for everybody, it is. Steve McDonnell: Yeah, that's good. Wow. Yep, so that's capital, resources, training, all sorts going into that. Roxanne Van Gundy: 100%. And you know, something that we're seeing here is people are hiring and hiring and hiring and they're not even getting applications because they're so rural. There's nobody who wants to do that job anymore. And so consolidation is starting to occur and pop up in the West. Nobody wants to live in Western Kansas. We joke here that it's two separate states, Western Kansas and Eastern Kansas, but there's a lot of consolidation efforts happening and I see that continuing to grow because I think this problem isn't gonna get any easier to solve. Emily Miller: Yeah. Steve McDonnell: while hopefully solving the wellness or at least supporting the wellness will help the situation. Roxanne Van Gundy: Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, the more that 911 can be relatable and open about our experiences and be willing to be vulnerable and show these new people like, hey, we've been where you are and you understand what you're going through and we're going to walk alongside you. I think we're going to have more luck in keeping folks a little bit longer. But I think that, you know, the trend is really leaning that this is not a job that young people want to do. Emily Miller: Yeah. Roxanne Van Gundy: They don't wanna do shift work. They don't wanna work their birthday. They don't wanna work that kind of stuff. And so I think there will be a genesis of how we hire people as we go forward. Emily Miller: Interesting. All right, good question, Steve. Thanks for answering, Roxy. Okay, before we start to wrap up, Roxy, are there any initiatives or programs that you're involved in, whether it's at Lyon County, Nina, that we haven't talked about that you'd like to share about with our listeners? Roxanne Van Gundy: You know, we were talking a little bit about AI and I think something that is starting to gain some traction is using AI in training. We have a new AI system that is giving us a chance to have people practice with AI-generated calls and call voices and making a more human practice space. So that's something we're starting here and starting to kind of get some momentum with. Steve McDonnell: you Roxanne Van Gundy: ⁓ Our quality assurance director is working on using it for continuing education. So, you know, for medical calls, we're going to learn about heart problems this month and then she'll send out a couple of different heart problem calls for people to work through. So we're really trying to find another space for AI to help us ⁓ grow. And I think that's something I'm seeing across a lot of centers. So we're excited that we were able to find a way to get that here. Emily Miller: Yeah, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. All right. For our listeners, if you'd like to connect with Roxy, you can find her on LinkedIn, Roxanne Van Gundy. Like I said, loyal follower, love her content. So I highly recommend. You can also check out the Lyon County website, which is lyoncountyks.gov, or you can check out the Neenah website, neenah.org. Roxy, thank you so much for joining us on the Will Mack Wire. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you. Steve McDonnell: It's awesome. Roxanne Van Gundy: Thank you guys. Thank you so much. Steve McDonnell: Thanks, Roxy.