Latest / ChangeMakers with Katie Goar / Episode 137: Dennis C. Shea, Executive Vice President, J. Ronald Terwilliger Center for Housing Policy

Transcript

Episode 137: Dennis C. Shea, Executive Vice President, J. Ronald Terwilliger Center for Housing Policy · ChangeMakers with Katie Goar

0:05
Speaker 1: This is change Makers with Katie Gore finding the right
0:09
Speaker 1: solutions for the affordable housing community.
0:13
Speaker 2: Today, I have Dentist's Shay with me, the executive director
0:17
Speaker 2: of the J. Ronald Turwolger Center for Housing Policy. Dennis,
0:21
Speaker 2: You've been in this career for several years and I
0:24
Speaker 2: am thrilled to have you and to hear what the
0:26
Speaker 2: Policy Center is doing. Some of your background when I
0:30
Speaker 2: was researching this. You have had senior roles at HUD
0:34
Speaker 2: you have had senior roles at the Office of US
0:37
Speaker 2: Trade and multiple bipartisan commissions. So thank you first of
0:42
Speaker 2: all for joining this on the change Makers Podcast.
0:46
Speaker 3: It's great to be with you, Katie. I look forward
0:48
Speaker 3: to our discussion.
0:50
Speaker 2: Let's go through first of all, what your personal journey
0:54
Speaker 2: to affordable housing has been like. I know from some
0:57
Speaker 2: of my back personal story that could admit that each
1:01
Speaker 2: of us bring to affordable housing really helps ground us.
1:05
Speaker 2: So would you mind starting us from that first point
1:09
Speaker 2: in how you've connected to affordable housing.
1:12
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I grew up in New York City.
1:15
Speaker 3: I grew up in a family of five, three kids
1:19
Speaker 3: and a mom and dad. We lived in a relatively
1:24
Speaker 3: small home, probably about fourteen fifteen hundred square feet with
1:30
Speaker 3: one bathroom. So both my parents worked and when we're
1:35
Speaker 3: all going to school and getting off to work, it
1:37
Speaker 3: was probably it was a pretty crowded event around in
1:42
Speaker 3: the morning after breakfast as we try to get ourselves together.
1:48
Speaker 3: So we lived in a modest home, but we lived
1:50
Speaker 3: in a really nice neighborhood. So we're in like the
1:52
Speaker 3: modest home in the really nice neighborhood with lots of families.
1:57
Speaker 3: And so I grew up with a lot of friends,
2:00
Speaker 3: kids everywhere, kids playing on the street. It was relatively safe,
2:05
Speaker 3: the school was down the street, and so it was
2:08
Speaker 3: really a wonderful, wonderful place to grow up. Forest Hills,
2:14
Speaker 3: Queen's and you know, lots of opportunity, lots of amenities around.
2:20
Speaker 3: Uh So I really learned, you know, the importance of place.
2:25
Speaker 3: Our home was was modest, but we lived in a
2:28
Speaker 3: really great community. That that that has stuck with me,
2:33
Speaker 3: h throughout my entire life, that you know, it's not
2:35
Speaker 3: just it's not just your home, it's actually where the
2:39
Speaker 3: home is located is very important. And that you know,
2:42
Speaker 3: at the Tuilger Center here at BBC, we advocate for
2:46
Speaker 3: affordable housing. Housing that is affordable.
2:50
Speaker 2: Uh.
2:50
Speaker 3: But we're also emphasized the importance of where it's located.
2:54
Speaker 3: That needs to be It should be close to you know,
2:57
Speaker 3: transportation and employment tunities and other amenities, So place is
3:02
Speaker 3: also very important.
3:04
Speaker 2: It's one of those things when we talk about affordable housing,
3:07
Speaker 2: we're so focused on the provision of it or the
3:10
Speaker 2: access or that infamous intersection of supply and demand, But
3:17
Speaker 2: we also have the assumptions that having the stable home,
3:22
Speaker 2: like you mentioned that that is the ability to be
3:25
Speaker 2: able to launch people to better self sufficiency. And I
3:29
Speaker 2: know you have a just a bookshelf of statistics and
3:32
Speaker 2: research that back that up. When you go out in
3:37
Speaker 2: the field to talk about and build bipartisan support, how
3:41
Speaker 2: do you convey that that message of stability is good
3:47
Speaker 2: economic policy for the nation.
3:49
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I start by saying the obvious, right
3:52
Speaker 3: that your home is shelter. It provides a basic necessity
3:57
Speaker 3: of life. Uh. But then you know, you may the
4:00
Speaker 3: point that it's also connected to good health UH. And
4:04
Speaker 3: it's also connected to academic achievement for children if they
4:10
Speaker 3: live in an affordable, stable home, And there's been you know,
4:15
Speaker 3: the studies that show it. Also emphasize that it's it's
4:21
Speaker 3: incredibly important for upward mobility to you know, if it's
4:24
Speaker 3: if you're living in a community that has access to
4:27
Speaker 3: good schools and to employment opportunities and transportation that supports
4:34
Speaker 3: upward mobility. And then I also make the point that
4:38
Speaker 3: labor workers need to go where the jobs are, and
4:43
Speaker 3: if there is no affordable housing or housing that is
4:47
Speaker 3: affordable near where the jobs are, that is a drag
4:51
Speaker 3: on economic growth. So access to housing that is affordable
4:57
Speaker 3: is critical to labor mobility, which in turn is critical
5:00
Speaker 3: to economic growth. And there's lots of statistics. Edward Glazer
5:05
Speaker 3: at Harvard has done a lot of research on this
5:08
Speaker 3: and others. So you know, when I make those points,
5:12
Speaker 3: I think people understand it. It just sounds like common
5:14
Speaker 3: sense to them. And you don't really need to spend
5:18
Speaker 3: a lot of time persuading people from any point on
5:22
Speaker 3: the political spectrum that what you're saying kind of makes
5:25
Speaker 3: a lot of sense.
5:27
Speaker 2: We've had several guests on the podcast, a couple from hospitals,
5:32
Speaker 2: developers who are working with hospitals, some schools, even Disney,
5:36
Speaker 2: and they have said that they want some stability for
5:40
Speaker 2: their employees and they don't want them commuting an hour
5:44
Speaker 2: and a half one way, and so they have gotten
5:47
Speaker 2: these employers have gotten into the space of providing affordable housing.
5:51
Speaker 2: So that really echoes what you're saying and what you're
5:54
Speaker 2: seeing in the industry as well.
5:56
Speaker 3: Let me just add, Katie, we have a group of
5:59
Speaker 3: corporations that are working with us now. We've started a
6:02
Speaker 3: group called the Executive Council for Housing Affordability, and it's
6:07
Speaker 3: precisely the point that you're making. These are a group
6:10
Speaker 3: of companies that recognize that when they come to a community,
6:15
Speaker 3: they often have an imprint on the community and affect
6:18
Speaker 3: the housing market potentially in that community. But they also
6:21
Speaker 3: want to ensure that their workers, their employees have an
6:25
Speaker 3: adequate place to live. So we've collected try to harness
6:29
Speaker 3: this group of companies to make that point to Congress
6:33
Speaker 3: because that's our focus. It's a federal focus to promote
6:38
Speaker 3: housing affordability and make that connection between housing, affordable housing,
6:43
Speaker 3: and economic growth.
6:45
Speaker 2: And that's something you're seeing across the nation. That's not
6:47
Speaker 2: something just isolated to major urban cities.
6:50
Speaker 3: Correct, Correct, it's just about every community in the country
6:57
Speaker 3: is struggling with high houses and costs, some more than others.
7:02
Speaker 3: But you know, this problem used to be a coastal
7:05
Speaker 3: issue or a big city issue, but it's really affecting
7:10
Speaker 3: communities of urban, suburban rural communities, Blue States, Red States.
7:15
Speaker 3: It's really impacting everybody right now.
7:19
Speaker 2: Affordable housing is on everybody's mind right now. It is
7:24
Speaker 2: really a topic of relevance. What are some of the
7:28
Speaker 2: most influential studies you think you and your team have
7:31
Speaker 2: put together to shed light on what's needed, what the
7:37
Speaker 2: current state is, and maybe some solutions that you're bringing
7:42
Speaker 2: is Are there a couple particular studies you want to highlight.
7:45
Speaker 3: Well, I just would like to say, you know, after
7:48
Speaker 3: Build Back Better, remember Build Back Better, which was in
7:51
Speaker 3: the Biden administration, there's a lot of funding for housing
7:55
Speaker 3: in there. A lot of people in the affordable housing
7:59
Speaker 3: advocacy community were concerned when that funding didn't materialize. But
8:06
Speaker 3: we put together we said, you know, we see housing
8:09
Speaker 3: the housing affordability challenge through three lenses. Through the need
8:13
Speaker 3: for more supply to meet demand. We've underbuilt housing for
8:18
Speaker 3: since the Great Recession by millions of homes, both rental
8:21
Speaker 3: and starter homes. The need to preserve the existing stock
8:25
Speaker 3: of affordable homes, and the need to help families with
8:30
Speaker 3: demand side supports, and they're going to be families households
8:33
Speaker 3: whose incomes just don't match their housing costs, so they're
8:36
Speaker 3: going to need some assistance. So we're big supporters of
8:40
Speaker 3: the of the Housing Choice Voucher program, but feel the
8:43
Speaker 3: program should be improved to make it more administratively easy
8:48
Speaker 3: for landlords, for example, to participate, so so families can
8:53
Speaker 3: utilize their vouchers in the private rental market. But in
8:56
Speaker 3: each of these three laning, supply, preservation, and man side
9:00
Speaker 3: we put to we demonstrated that there was a lot
9:04
Speaker 3: of bipartisan support in Congress for initiatives, meaningful initiatives in
9:10
Speaker 3: each of these three lanes, supply preservation, and demand side support.
9:14
Speaker 3: So we have we put them all together into a
9:18
Speaker 3: comprehensive package a few years ago, and we called it
9:22
Speaker 3: the American Housing Act, and we said to Congress, this
9:25
Speaker 3: is what you need to act on. This is bipartisan, nonpartisan,
9:30
Speaker 3: the support in both parties for these things. So let's
9:34
Speaker 3: get this together. And we're seeing some of it, many
9:38
Speaker 3: of these ideas materializing, and we could discuss this the
9:42
Speaker 3: Road to Housing Act, which you know passed out of
9:47
Speaker 3: the Senate Banking Committee unanimously unanimously, which is extraordinary in
9:52
Speaker 3: these divide at times, and then pass the Senate h
9:56
Speaker 3: recently as part of what's called the National Defense Authorization Act.
10:00
Speaker 3: So uh, I think one of the things, I think
10:03
Speaker 3: one of we have done was to demonstrate that there
10:09
Speaker 3: is bipartsnership around a lot of initiatives that could meaningfully
10:15
Speaker 3: impact supply preservation and help for families who have lower
10:20
Speaker 3: incomes and need some assistance.
10:22
Speaker 2: I've read that particular act that is on the horizon.
10:28
Speaker 2: Can you explain some of those deregulation points that are
10:32
Speaker 2: within that. There's been a lot of talk about how
10:35
Speaker 2: we can speed up development and most often people want
10:40
Speaker 2: to know how can how can this be done faster?
10:42
Speaker 2: How can the pipeline move faster? And many people talk
10:45
Speaker 2: about deregulation as being part of that. And I know
10:48
Speaker 2: that particular act has some features that would do that.
10:53
Speaker 2: Could you give us a highlight of some of those sure?
10:57
Speaker 3: I mean, for example, it removes the permanent chassis requirement
11:01
Speaker 3: for from the HUD code for manufactured housing. Many manufactured
11:07
Speaker 3: homes are brought to their location and built on a
11:10
Speaker 3: permanent found put it on a permanent foundation, so this
11:13
Speaker 3: chassis requirement is really not necessary. And I'm told it
11:17
Speaker 3: could say, eliminating that requirement could save five to ten
11:20
Speaker 3: thousand dollars per manufactured home. And it's already an affordable
11:24
Speaker 3: source of housing, so it can make it even more affordable.
11:26
Speaker 3: So that's one example improving the Housing Choice Valucher program.
11:31
Speaker 3: A lot of landlords complaining that they're not They say,
11:36
Speaker 3: I'm not part of the program because of the inspection process,
11:40
Speaker 3: that it's too complex. I have a mortgage to pay too,
11:43
Speaker 3: but I have to way five, six, seven weeks to
11:45
Speaker 3: put a family into my rental unit. That costs me.
11:50
Speaker 3: So it has some common sense things like if you've
11:54
Speaker 3: been inspected for a under a previous federal program, you
11:59
Speaker 3: can be over the past year. You don't need another inspection.
12:03
Speaker 3: You can get pre inspection pre inspected UH. If you're
12:07
Speaker 3: in a rural community, you can have a virtual uh inspection. UH.
12:12
Speaker 3: So they they tweak a tweak the process there to
12:16
Speaker 3: encourage a greater landlord participation. But there are a number
12:20
Speaker 3: of provisions if we have time, if I can go
12:22
Speaker 3: on you know that that are using access to federal
12:25
Speaker 3: funds to try to encourage local zoning and land use reform. So,
12:33
Speaker 3: for example, there's a two hundred million dollars Innovation fund
12:37
Speaker 3: that says, if you're a local community that has actually
12:42
Speaker 3: taken affirmative steps to promote more housing in your community
12:47
Speaker 3: through you know, zoning and land use reform, you can
12:50
Speaker 3: get access to these funds.
12:52
Speaker 1: Uh.
12:53
Speaker 3: And these funds can be used, you know, very flexibly
12:57
Speaker 3: for not just housing, but for infrastructure and the thing.
13:00
Speaker 3: So that's an example of trying to provide a carrot.
13:02
Speaker 3: The federal government provide a carrot to local and state
13:06
Speaker 3: governments to change their change their policies. There are other
13:11
Speaker 3: things like tying federal transportation dollars, Like if you're an
13:15
Speaker 3: applicant for federal transportation dollars, if you promote housing near
13:20
Speaker 3: a transit project, you can get a bonus on your application.
13:26
Speaker 3: So tying transit with access to affordable housing. So these
13:30
Speaker 3: are some of the things that the bill attempts to do.
13:36
Speaker 2: I've even heard about the Davis Bacon wage determinations and
13:40
Speaker 2: trying to raise that unit count or at least streamline
13:45
Speaker 2: some of that some of those regulations. Do you see
13:49
Speaker 2: that also making its way to the finish line.
13:52
Speaker 3: Katie, that's not in the Road to Housing. But we
13:56
Speaker 3: have an advisory committee at the too Leger Center very
13:59
Speaker 3: eminent in individuals from both both political parties, and some
14:04
Speaker 3: of them recently sent a letter to the White House
14:08
Speaker 3: earlier this week actually suggesting that affordable housing and lie
14:15
Speaker 3: tech low income housing tax credit projects be exempt from
14:20
Speaker 3: Davis Bacon prevailing wage requirements because they kind of some
14:25
Speaker 3: research suggests that those add to the costs of housing,
14:29
Speaker 3: and there's also complications around the process of assessing what
14:33
Speaker 3: the prevailing wage which is, which impacts the timeline and such.
14:38
Speaker 3: So we recently have raised that issue. We raised it
14:42
Speaker 3: earlier this year with Secretary Besant with respect to just
14:48
Speaker 3: lie tech projects that look at whether it makes sense
14:51
Speaker 3: to suspend like tech projects from prevailing wage determinations under
14:57
Speaker 3: Davis Bacon.
14:59
Speaker 2: So is it two early to tell whether whether that
15:01
Speaker 2: one is going to be changed or I think.
15:06
Speaker 3: It's too early to tell, too early to tell at
15:08
Speaker 3: this point, but you know, I think more and more
15:10
Speaker 3: people are are beginning to talk about this is year.
15:13
Speaker 3: For example, for example, on the environmental side, the Road
15:19
Speaker 3: to Housing Exempts seeks to exempt affordable housing projects from NIPA,
15:27
Speaker 3: the National Environmental Policy Act, particularly infil related projects, you know,
15:34
Speaker 3: projects that are in in the middle of an urban
15:37
Speaker 3: area that it's already you know, it doesn't really make
15:40
Speaker 3: sense to do an environmental impact assessment in these infol sites.
15:45
Speaker 3: So that that that concept is in the road to housing.
15:49
Speaker 3: It's in the Home Bill, which Congressman Flood of Nebraska
15:57
Speaker 3: and Congressman Cleaver of Missouri UH introduced to earlier this year,
16:03
Speaker 3: UH to sort of so this and you know, you
16:05
Speaker 3: saw Governor NUSA Mountain, California h endorsing the idea that
16:10
Speaker 3: affordable housing projects should be exempt from the California equivalent
16:16
Speaker 3: of the National Environmental Policy Act SEQUE, California Environmental Quality Act.
16:21
Speaker 3: I believe. So there's UH, there's a growing recognition that
16:27
Speaker 3: some of these regulatory policies, while may well intentioned and
16:31
Speaker 3: maybe serving other you know, other legitimate public policy purposes
16:36
Speaker 3: with respect to affordable housing, may not be uh, may
16:40
Speaker 3: need to be reconsidered.
16:42
Speaker 2: This is more of a layman's type of question. But
16:47
Speaker 2: I'm so curious with what you do. Are there things
16:51
Speaker 2: that are said to you that where people are just
16:56
Speaker 2: surprised about affordable housing when you're trying to build consensus
17:01
Speaker 2: and collaboration. Something that's either positive or negatively said that
17:07
Speaker 2: has impacted their their viewpoint about affordable housing, and you're
17:10
Speaker 2: hearing that. Have you come across any types of zingers
17:16
Speaker 2: lately with people's views about affordable housing.
17:22
Speaker 3: I mean one line I like, which I've heard a
17:24
Speaker 3: couple of times, which I'm going to try to remember correctly,
17:27
Speaker 3: is housing is where the jobs go at night. And
17:33
Speaker 3: that's so you need to have housing to to support
17:37
Speaker 3: employment and economic growth. Housing is where the jobs go
17:42
Speaker 3: at night. So I think that's a good one people
17:45
Speaker 3: that that resonates with people. But you know, I, Katie,
17:50
Speaker 3: I have you know Ron to Williger. I work at
17:53
Speaker 3: the Twiliger Center and I've worked with Ron off and
17:56
Speaker 3: on for many years. And Ron used to call the
17:59
Speaker 3: house he was taught raising the alarm bells years ago
18:03
Speaker 3: on housing affordability, and he called it the silent crisis
18:09
Speaker 3: because policymakers weren't paying attention to it. The media wasn't
18:16
Speaker 3: paying attention to high housing costs. But now everybody's paying
18:20
Speaker 3: attention to it. You can't open the news. I still
18:23
Speaker 3: read the newspaper, but you can't go online anymore and
18:26
Speaker 3: not find a story about, you know, high housing costs,
18:30
Speaker 3: and Congress is reacting. So I think the zingers are
18:32
Speaker 3: maybe happening in the homes of some of the Congress
18:36
Speaker 3: people who are hearing from their children that they can
18:39
Speaker 3: find a place to live that's affordable to them. And
18:45
Speaker 3: so I think it's really impacting a lot of people,
18:49
Speaker 3: the housing affordability challenge, and I think that's sort of
18:52
Speaker 3: the biggest reason why attitudes and the urgency around the
18:57
Speaker 3: issue have grown.
19:00
Speaker 2: And Ron was definitely a pioneer and he is a
19:04
Speaker 2: profit of what was to come because now we see
19:08
Speaker 2: that exactly that exact same thing playing out in real
19:13
Speaker 2: time right now. So my hope is that pushes this
19:17
Speaker 2: all to solution making faster though, and that this is
19:21
Speaker 2: our chance to really get it right, despite being probably
19:25
Speaker 2: about thirty years too late in this game.
19:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. Ron definitely is someone who's
19:33
Speaker 3: been raising the alarm bell. You know, he looked at
19:35
Speaker 3: the demographic changes, he looked at supply years ago and said,
19:40
Speaker 3: we're in for a hurting and not in the not
19:45
Speaker 3: too distant future if we don't get this, get this
19:48
Speaker 3: turned around. So you're right, he's been someone who's been
19:51
Speaker 3: talking about it for many, many years. But there's a
19:56
Speaker 3: lot going on. I mean, I've been out in the
19:58
Speaker 3: country a little bit, and you know, I see state
20:01
Speaker 3: governors are getting really involved in this, a Katie. They
20:05
Speaker 3: all have plans, many of them do. Uh. I was
20:12
Speaker 3: out in Utah and saw as part of the National
20:15
Speaker 3: Housing Crisis Task Force and met with Spencer Cox.
20:20
Speaker 2: Uh.
20:20
Speaker 3: He's been a leader of this issue. I mean, it's
20:23
Speaker 3: it's not and it's bipartisan. It's you have people like uh,
20:27
Speaker 3: you know, on their Republican side, Spencer Cox and Craig
20:30
Speaker 3: Janforte of Montana and others, and then you have people
20:34
Speaker 3: like uh, you know, Tina Kotec of Oregon on the
20:39
Speaker 3: Democratic side, Daniel McKee of UH of Rhode Island is
20:44
Speaker 3: is So it's really kind of a bipartisan issue. People
20:47
Speaker 3: realize that, uh, it's a nonpartisan. People realize we need
20:52
Speaker 3: to get this right. Housing is so important, it's foundational.
20:56
Speaker 2: So there used to be an acronym when the Rental
20:59
Speaker 2: ass Since Demonstration Program, the RAD program, when it was
21:05
Speaker 2: first rolled out, there used to be a common reference.
21:11
Speaker 2: It was Republicans and Democrats, We're supporting the rad program,
21:17
Speaker 2: and you know, I mean we joke about it amongst
21:22
Speaker 2: in the industry, but we really are at a point
21:26
Speaker 2: of desperation as a nation. We're at a critical crossroads
21:31
Speaker 2: here to really make some impact, and so many of
21:36
Speaker 2: us are encouraged that there is true bipartisan solution making happening.
21:42
Speaker 2: But as we all know, it comes down to the details,
21:46
Speaker 2: and it comes down to people's ability to truly make
21:51
Speaker 2: things happen versus talk about things. So what is giving
21:55
Speaker 2: you and the Bipartisan Policy Center, what is giving you
21:59
Speaker 2: guys hope in that arena?
22:03
Speaker 3: Well, I think again, most of our focus is federal,
22:06
Speaker 3: so we had, you know, in the One Big Beautiful Bill,
22:11
Speaker 3: we had one area of bipartisanship was the expansion of
22:15
Speaker 3: the Low income Housing tax credit. Federal support for the
22:19
Speaker 3: nine percent credit was increased by twelve percent, and the
22:23
Speaker 3: bill also made it easier to utilize the four percent
22:27
Speaker 3: credits by lowering the private activity bond threshold. So estimate
22:35
Speaker 3: experts estimate that could create one point two million additional
22:40
Speaker 3: new affordable rental homes over the next ten years. So
22:43
Speaker 3: that was something we've been advocating for for a long time.
22:47
Speaker 3: And we're very you know, thrilled that that was part
22:50
Speaker 3: of the package. Then the Road to Housing Act comes along,
22:54
Speaker 3: and literally this is you know, it's I'm not you
22:58
Speaker 3: don't want to overstate the impact, but it of the legislation.
23:02
Speaker 3: But it is comprehensive. It is a recognition by Congress
23:07
Speaker 3: that we need to do something here, and uh, it's
23:12
Speaker 3: totally bipartisan. And so we were very thrilled by the
23:18
Speaker 3: Senate acting on it, and the House has now got
23:23
Speaker 3: a different they're they're they're they're they're working on the
23:26
Speaker 3: Home Bill. But now the negotiators, it's our understanding that
23:30
Speaker 3: there's a negotiation going on at this moment between the
23:36
Speaker 3: Senate Banking Committee and the House Financial Services Committee to
23:40
Speaker 3: see what kind of package could be put into the
23:45
Speaker 3: National Defense Authorization Act. And it's our understanding that, you know,
23:51
Speaker 3: the timeline for the conclusion of this negotiation is relatively imminent.
23:57
Speaker 3: So we are looking at the smoke signal from Capitol
24:00
Speaker 3: Hill and seeing what comes out. But we're helpful that
24:05
Speaker 3: that could pass. So we're very this is exciting for
24:07
Speaker 3: us at the federal level, but again, we are also
24:11
Speaker 3: working with the governors across the country. Beginning to work
24:14
Speaker 3: with them to support and elevate their efforts. And more
24:17
Speaker 3: and more governors are getting involved. Uh, there seems to
24:21
Speaker 3: be a greater interest in sort of preemption, having sort
24:25
Speaker 3: of state level policies that kind of maybe perhaps preempt
24:29
Speaker 3: some local policies. Uh. You know, governors of both political
24:34
Speaker 3: parties are getting in this act, and then you have
24:36
Speaker 3: a lot of local communities are are are are trying,
24:41
Speaker 3: are making changes. So I think the problem has become
24:44
Speaker 3: so severe that action people are just responding. Policy makers
24:51
Speaker 3: are finally responding, and it's it's Katie's there's no single
24:55
Speaker 3: solution and uh, you know, there's no magic wand so
24:59
Speaker 3: it's going to be over a series of years, action
25:03
Speaker 3: at the federal level, action at the state level, actually
25:05
Speaker 3: at the local community level, philanthropy being involved, you know,
25:10
Speaker 3: private sectors you mentioned earlier being heavily involved. It's going
25:15
Speaker 3: to be kind of need an old, hands on deck
25:18
Speaker 3: approach to solve this problem, which has built up over time.
25:22
Speaker 3: It won't be solved overnight, so but I think we're
25:25
Speaker 3: beginning the process of trying to turn the ship around.
25:29
Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned the local piece because that definitely
25:33
Speaker 2: is a factor to that where they can mobilize and
25:36
Speaker 2: not wait for the federal government, not wait for the state,
25:40
Speaker 2: but really drive their own solutions as well. But they
25:43
Speaker 2: have to have the access in the framework at the
25:46
Speaker 2: state and federal level to make that happen. Are there
25:50
Speaker 2: some specific highlights of cities or specific projects that you
25:57
Speaker 2: like to brag about and really highlight as best practices.
26:03
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're allowed to talk about favorites
26:07
Speaker 2: or or it's like picking your favorite kid. Could you
26:11
Speaker 2: mention a few? You know?
26:13
Speaker 3: We we on our website we have done a series
26:17
Speaker 3: of short pieces highlighting reform efforts at the local level
26:24
Speaker 3: that we we've liked. I mean, allowing manufactured housing in
26:27
Speaker 3: your community like Jackson, Mississippi, or reducing parking minimum requirements
26:32
Speaker 3: in Buffalo and Minneapolis has done a lot around single
26:38
Speaker 3: family zoning. So there are lots of examples.
26:41
Speaker 2: Uh.
26:41
Speaker 3: Really requires, you know, local leadership requires a willingness to
26:47
Speaker 3: engage the community. I'm personally not one who likes to
26:53
Speaker 3: demonize anybody or demonize people who are against you know,
26:56
Speaker 3: the the more more housing. Uh, because they have their
27:01
Speaker 3: own reasons, so you need you know, they they may
27:04
Speaker 3: say this is my single My home is my single
27:08
Speaker 3: biggest investment, that's my retirement, and I don't want to
27:12
Speaker 3: go down in value, which I get that's an understandable sentiment.
27:18
Speaker 3: So we just need to continue talking to each other.
27:22
Speaker 3: We need to, you know, continue to explain why this
27:26
Speaker 3: won't impact your property value, might enhance your property value.
27:31
Speaker 3: To have more housing, I mean some some low some
27:34
Speaker 3: affordable housing ron to Williger, for example, has A has
27:38
Speaker 3: A supported an affordable housing development which was partly lie
27:43
Speaker 3: tech and multiple multiple streams of funding, giving a preference
27:48
Speaker 3: to veterans in in Arlington, uh in his former where
27:52
Speaker 3: he grew up. And someone asked me on an event
27:55
Speaker 3: when the groundbreaking, and how do you convince people that
28:00
Speaker 3: at affordable housing is good in their community? And I say,
28:03
Speaker 3: just look at this this place. I mean, this is
28:06
Speaker 3: a you know, this is a nice thing to have
28:10
Speaker 3: in your community. This project is really valuable to this community,
28:14
Speaker 3: So just look at it. So I again, it's it's
28:18
Speaker 3: it's a lot of intensity trying to go to where
28:21
Speaker 3: people are, trying to understand their concerns, trying to respond
28:24
Speaker 3: to their concerns. But I think more and more people realize,
28:27
Speaker 3: you know, their kids need to have housing, so we
28:31
Speaker 3: need we need to build more in places that people
28:34
Speaker 3: want to live. You know, could always build way out
28:38
Speaker 3: somewhere and it's not really a place that many people
28:42
Speaker 3: would want to live. So it's you know, building more
28:44
Speaker 3: housing and places that provide opportunities and are connected to
28:48
Speaker 3: the rest of the rest of society.
28:52
Speaker 2: I have to ask you this question because you've worked
28:55
Speaker 2: in so many diplomatic scenarios and settings, and I mean
29:01
Speaker 2: you've even worked in Geneva. You've worked obviously with what
29:06
Speaker 2: you're doing in Congress and all the halls of importance.
29:10
Speaker 2: But if you could give three or four best practice
29:16
Speaker 2: tips on how to build collaboration in your community about housing.
29:25
Speaker 2: So you know, you're talking to somebody who maybe is
29:28
Speaker 2: up against the fight to build new housing, up against
29:32
Speaker 2: the fight to set aside certain zoning requirements. I mean,
29:38
Speaker 2: what are the tips and techniques for people who really
29:42
Speaker 2: want to build collaboration.
29:45
Speaker 3: Well, that's a great question. I would say, never write
29:49
Speaker 3: anybody off. I mean, maybe you have to at some point,
29:54
Speaker 3: but don't go in writing anybody off. I think talking
30:00
Speaker 3: to people is incredibly important because you might uh consider
30:05
Speaker 3: yourself a complete opposites of an issue. But if you
30:12
Speaker 3: engage and talk, and you know, in a respectful civil manner,
30:18
Speaker 3: explain your position. If you come in with a disposition,
30:21
Speaker 3: I'm trying to find where the common ground is. You'll
30:24
Speaker 3: be you'll, you'll you'll uh. I think you'll see that
30:27
Speaker 3: there's more common You'll find yourself. The common ground will
30:31
Speaker 3: reveal itself. You'll you'll find that you may have more
30:35
Speaker 3: in common that you initially thought. And that's a lot
30:38
Speaker 3: of what we do at BPC. We bring people together
30:41
Speaker 3: from various perspectives and try to get them to talk
30:44
Speaker 3: to each other and uh and and and try to
30:47
Speaker 3: find that common ground. So I think talking to people
30:50
Speaker 3: uh and uh, just trying to understand what they want,
30:54
Speaker 3: what their concerns are, expressing what you want and what
30:59
Speaker 3: your your concerns are, and then just you can you
31:02
Speaker 3: can more likely than not find that there's areas of
31:06
Speaker 3: common ground. And getting one hundred percent is not always
31:10
Speaker 3: you're you know, feasible. If you get seventy percent of
31:13
Speaker 3: what you're seeking, that's that's a win as far as
31:16
Speaker 3: I'm concerned, Well, we have.
31:17
Speaker 2: Talked about a lot of things. Is there something that
31:20
Speaker 2: you would like to highlight that maybe we have missed.
31:23
Speaker 3: For everyone who cares about access to to housing and
31:27
Speaker 3: recognize its foundational importance. I think we just just keep
31:30
Speaker 3: at it and with a with a smile and with
31:35
Speaker 3: a positive spirit.
31:36
Speaker 2: I agree it's can we sit and have coffee and
31:39
Speaker 2: talk about housing and put aside the differences because that
31:44
Speaker 2: seems to be the core bind that's going to bring
31:48
Speaker 2: us all together at some level, isn't it?
31:51
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Because everybody on housing, everybody gets it. At a
31:55
Speaker 3: fun you know, everybody realized it's just you need a
31:58
Speaker 3: place to go at night to sleep right, so and
32:01
Speaker 3: you know that from your experience, and uh so you
32:05
Speaker 3: just everybody gets that. So that's a good foundation.
32:08
Speaker 2: To start again. I've been talking with Dennis Say, the
32:12
Speaker 2: executive vice president and chair of the Bipartisan Policy Center.
32:16
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Dennis.
32:18
Speaker 3: Thank you Katie. Great to be with you.
32:20
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to change Makers with Katie Gore. To
32:24
Speaker 1: find out more about Katie, go to quadel dot com.
32:27
Speaker 1: That's qu A d E l dot com. This has
32:32
Speaker 1: been a production of Forbes Books Radio