Latest / Finding New Waters / Why Long-Term Recovery Works with Eric Button

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Why Long-Term Recovery Works with Eric Button · Finding New Waters

0:00
So more than likely every client that says that they worked at 12
0:04
steps and it didn't work for them, they they never worked at
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12 steps. They, they they they basically
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just gave the 12 steps lip service, right.
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They didn't invest at all. So the beneficialness of having
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a community that's invested in the in the 12 steps, the people
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that are on the fence or on the edge of the funnel for the 12
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steps, they start having an experience with it because it's
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the whole culture. Good afternoon.
1:01
My name is Graham Durgey and I'm the Founder and CEO of New
1:05
Waters Recovery in Raleigh, NC Welcome to our weekly podcast,
1:08
Finding New Waters. Our goal in creating Finding New
1:11
Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate
1:14
the complexities of supporting a loved one struggling with
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substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in crisis
1:20
due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to
1:23
turn. We hope to shed some light onto
1:24
what is often the darkest hour for many families.
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All right. Welcome, everybody.
1:29
We've got Eric Button with us here today.
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Eric is the family Liaison and Senior Business Development
1:36
representative for Burning Tree Programs.
1:37
Welcome, Eric. Thank you for being with us
1:39
today. Well, thank you for having me,
1:41
Graham, of course. Yeah, I'm going to go back a
1:45
little ways back to kind of Texas days and and great to
1:50
reconnect with you. You know, I always like starting
1:53
these these podcasts off. Obviously, want to give our
1:55
listeners a little bit of information on your background
1:59
and you know, how did you get into this field?
2:01
How did you start working in the behavioral health field and
2:05
maybe just a little bit about your story.
2:08
Well, First off, I'm honored to be on New Waters Recovery
2:12
Podcast, Finding New Waters. And I got sober on the 21st day
2:18
of July 2005. So I just celebrated 18 years.
2:23
What was that last? That was last week, and it was
2:28
it was the morning I was not planning on getting sober.
2:32
But the the universe used the legal system to help guide me
2:38
into this funnel of change, right?
2:43
And I got to be a client that that went to burning tree.
2:47
I had many attempts at getting sober previously.
2:52
I always seemed to have the jobs which always afforded me to buy
2:57
the legal representation that could allow me to continue to
3:04
live in a way that I thought I was in control of what was going
3:07
on Last time I got arrested I already had bond paid at a
3:14
bonding company. All they had to do is just find
3:16
my name that comes up on the computer and and I got out.
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So that's how I operate the. Bond company?
3:25
Yeah, I mean that. Yeah.
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And it took me a long time to buy into what this, this theory
3:34
of honesty is. And because I thought I was in
3:38
control of everything, so I got to go to Burning Tree.
3:41
As a client, I would say I was not I.
3:49
It's what ultimately saved my life.
3:52
It took me probably seven months to buy into being honest, and
4:02
ever since I have maintained my sobriety and I have enlarged my
4:09
sobriety on a on a daily basis. I'm sponsored.
4:14
I have sponsees in the fellowship of Alcoholics
4:17
Anonymous. I got out of Burning Tree in
4:23
September of 2006, and while I was a client at Burning Tree,
4:28
there was a gentleman who was the CEO.
4:30
His name was Mark Houston. Mark Houston called me.
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I was going to go work for a guy.
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I was good. So my entire adult life from
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basically 15 till 3036, I was in the car parts business and in
4:52
management. My last job I was at
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International Trucking Engine Corporation as the modification
5:00
department lead, and I had like 20-3 guys working under me.
5:07
I was going to, I got out of Burning Tree.
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This is a time when there really wasn't a lot of of aftercare
5:16
when you leave treatment. There was like Oxford houses,
5:19
but sober living was just starting.
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I got out of Burning Tree. I went to an Oxford house and I
5:24
was going to go work for a guy that was opening a Body Shop up
5:27
in Austin, TX. And my phone rang and it was a
5:33
friend of mine who I got sober with at Burning Tree and Greg
5:37
Rolf and Mark Houston. And they called and asked if I
5:41
thought if I had ever thought about working in the treatment
5:46
field and I said no, I hadn't. I got a job.
5:50
I mean, I was going to go work for this guy named Dave H and
5:55
you know, I would have started out making $20.00 an hour and
6:00
you know, quickly would have worked my way up, right?
6:04
So I went out to a place. A sobriety.
6:07
A recovery job, right? Yeah, recovery.
6:09
Job getting that recovery job and and you know obviously we
6:12
recommend to to you know young men and and people kind of in
6:15
that early phase of of recovery you know get something that's
6:18
going to be a little bit lower stress you know pay some of the
6:22
bills but nothing kind of too too overwhelming right.
6:26
Yeah, not not a career job. Right, right.
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Get your feet wet. Put put, put my recovery first
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right Home group, Home group, continue to work with my sponsor
6:39
and continuing to work the steps.
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And then I had a referral for a therapist that I was continuing
6:45
to see and and just putting the actions into realization and
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phone rings. So I went out to see Mark at his
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new place in in Manor, TX called Mark Houston Recovery.
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It was actually called the Last resort when they first opened
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and something just told me that hey, this is this is kind of
7:07
cool. So I took a $9 an hour job, $9
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and I hadn't made, I don't think I ever made $9 an hour until
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then and driving the guys and and just being invested with
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them on this path of changing their trajectory and Mark
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Houston's flourished, it took off.
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I opened up a transition program called Addiction Directions and
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we worked with all of the clients coming out of Mark
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Houston. So we had a very robust sober
7:47
living environment with the post treatment discharge plan
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implementation program called ADAP Addiction Directions
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Accountability Program and it took off and we had a lot of
8:01
success and like like everything in life and recovery, things
8:08
change. There's an ebb and flow to
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everything and we lost Mark unfortunately and some of the
8:16
business partners in the in the process.
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I closed down Addiction directions and I had an
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opportunity from our owner. We're family owned at Burning
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Tree. Gentleman named David Elliott
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reached out and and asked if I ever thought about coming to
8:33
work for him and this November I will have been with Burning Tree
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for 10 years. Wow and Burning Tree Which?
8:43
Is a very long time in in the recovery field.
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It's for more than three years. It's.
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It seems like a lifetime and it's it.
8:56
It really falls in line with The Who I am.
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I'm a very loyal type person as you can tell.
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I was very loyal to the drugs and alcohol I was using for a
9:06
long time and I have been in the business development role and
9:13
have been in the family communication role and and
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connecting with the families since I have since.
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I went to Burning Tree and Burning Trees family owned.
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It was started in 1999 by David Elliott.
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Our initial program is in Kaufman, TX.
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That's our longterm program. Average link to stay is anywhere
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from 8 to 14 months of residential treatment with a 12
9:42
month transition period after. We usually seem to have a census
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of 22 to 28 men and women. That just seems to be our ebb
9:55
and flow. We're not for everybody.
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We are for the chronic relapser whom have a family component or
10:06
a I would say a power source in their life that continues to
10:13
enable them to run the show and make decisions which then in
10:18
turn allows them to continue to just go to treatment after
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treatment after treatment. Average clients probably been to
10:25
six previous treatments with failure.
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All of our, all of our staff except for clinical director
10:35
who's in recovery from for Al Anon is in recovery.
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Our Executive Director, Jesse Earwood, he's a fellow alum of
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Burning Tree and we have a clinic.
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We have a couple of clinicians that are a fellow alums,
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majority of our staff. I would say 95% of them are all
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longterm employees. And when I say longterm, I mean
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eight years plus. You guys are so longterm over
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there, that's crazy to go someplace 14 months and then
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work there 10 years. Like that's they must serve good
11:09
food or something. Right.
11:12
Yeah. It's so essential.
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And I know Ryan is dealing with this on a daily basis, right.
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And and that was one of the real reasons I wanted to have you on
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here today was to kind of talk about this longterm aspect,
11:23
right. And and I love that you
11:24
highlight that your program is really well suited for kind of
11:27
the chronic relapse, right? Yes, because what we're seeing,
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you know it's ton of here at New Waters and really everybody's
11:35
seen across the country is a lot of these young adult clients who
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are just you know we're not really identifying truly what
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what's happening under the surface.
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Is there some sort of underlying mental health or learning
11:45
disability or maybe on the spectrum or, you know, and and
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really just kind of pigeonholing them into this same kind of
11:52
cookie cutter? Primary substance use tract that
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maybe isn't hitting all the marks right and they don't get
11:57
the help that they need and then ultimately they're in treatment
12:00
at 23456 times family's down a half $1,000,000 you know putting
12:04
them in treatment and they their kid is still sick.
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So I do I I'm a big proponent of this of the long term treatment
12:12
really does work right statistically we know you have a
12:14
better shot the longer term you stay in in in treatment.
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So talk about that a little and and what you all do there and
12:21
your philosophy on that. The huge, the huge advantage of
12:25
longterm is every client comes to burning tree and they've got
12:33
other diagnosis other than drugs and alcohol, right.
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They do have some mental health. They have some diagnosis of
12:39
depression or schizoaffective or bipolar or anxiousness.
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And what ends up happening in longterm treatment is the client
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gets to get back to this homeostasis, right.
13:00
They're going to bed at a set time.
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They're getting 8 hours of sleep.
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They're monitored in their sleep, right bed checks ensuring
13:09
that they're making observations.
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Oh, we notice it. Eric is quite a snore.
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Okay. Maybe we can do something to
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help create a better sleep for Eric or so.
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We know about everything that's going on.
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They get up at a set time, they do prayer meditation, they do,
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they eat breakfast at a set time.
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They exert themselves physically, mentally,
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spiritually and emotionally. So we're hitting on all these
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aspects during the day, master level clinicians and working the
13:49
steps of of Alcoholics Anonymous independently, but everything's
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intertwined. Our psychiatrist, Doctor
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Seacrest, a Sam psychiatrist, he's very versed at working with
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Burning Trees, been with us for 15 years.
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He's also a fellow at Presbyterian Dallas in the J5
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section of the hospital, which is their mental health wing.
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He's very versed, he's I would say he is a Med minimalist.
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He's also does psychotherapy in conjunction with his his
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prescribing if they need anything and he sees them for a
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complete hour. Amazing, right?
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Not on Zoom. He's out there and he's
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interacting with the staff daily or weekly.
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He he's interacts with staff on Mondays by by zoom, and then
14:54
when he comes out to see the clients on Fridays, they meet
14:57
with him and they go over everything they they share
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observations of what's going on with each client that he's
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seeing. And it's very everything is very
15:06
intertwined. The clients are working the
15:09
steps independently from what they're doing clinically.
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And what that means is staff is not taking them through the
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steps an independent sponsor. So they go out to meetings every
15:20
night of the week except for Sunday nights.
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We have an in house meeting, we're taking them into Dallas,
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They're driving into in vans and they're going to gender specific
15:32
meetings or they're going to aftercare meeting or they're
15:35
going to Wednesdays to our Dallas office so they can see
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their sponsors in person. We make it easier for the
15:42
sponsors. Instead of driving out 45 miles
15:46
east and South of downtown Dallas, we're we're bringing the
15:50
clients into Dallas. The the sponsors can come out
15:54
and work with their sponsees on Sundays and everything is
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communicated and it's very systematic.
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A client works the steps and the sponsor is signed off on them to
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move forward from say step one to Step 2.
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And then the client puts in a request to present to the staff
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they share what that current step means to them.
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And then the staff collectively votes on if they should move
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forward or if there's something that we think is amiss, we're
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going to get with the sponsor and make some suggestions.
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We're not guiding and directing the sponsor sponsy relationship,
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but I would say we're getting shoulder to shoulder with them
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to work on a common goal. I would say 95% of our clients.
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They're all being sponsored by alum that have been separated
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from burning tree for at least two years post completing the
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entire program I. Love how you guys intertwine
16:52
that clinical work that like cutting edge clinically astute
16:55
work with the 12 step modality. Cuz so often we see people lean
16:59
either one way or the other, right?
17:00
Where it's like you do the 12 steps but you're not allowed to
17:03
take antipsychotics or you're allowed to do everything but the
17:06
12 steps related to spirituality and like holding that balance is
17:09
is just so important. Eric, I'm really curious.
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Like, I could see why families would be attracted to this
17:16
program. Like we see plenty of families
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that are like, Oh yeah, you can lock them up for 8 to 14 months.
17:20
Like that's not a problem. My my curiosity is for you
17:23
yourself. What drove you to engage in this
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in this longterm treatment program?
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Well, leverage, if it wasn't for, if it wasn't for leverage
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my my leverage was legal, correct.
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There's all kinds of and leverage seems like a kind of a,
17:51
it's a truthful word, but it I would say we could use
17:57
opportunity. There ain't a single, there
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ain't a single, there ain't a single client that's coming to
18:04
Burnetry and they're like, I want to go to longterm
18:07
treatment, but the families are on board and then until and most
18:13
families are on board until we start asking them to get
18:16
involved right. We're wanting them to work with
18:20
the a counselor, therapist or or an addiction consultant or or
18:25
some type of extra professional involved in their life.
18:33
We're also wanting them to be invested in their own recovery,
18:36
so non families, anonymous things like this, and we're
18:42
holding them accountable to putting those actions forward.
18:45
We're wanting the entire system to start having a communication
18:48
of recovery. So there are families that are
18:54
on board and then they become resistant just like they're just
18:57
like their loved one. I like using the analogy of a
19:01
funnel burning trees, like a funnel, there's a big end on a
19:05
funnel, you know what that looks like and then it gets smaller
19:07
and smaller and smaller. That big funnel is, is the
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universe using leverage or opportunity, whatever you want
19:17
to call it to get this client inside the funnel.
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And I'll I'll refer to the funnel as change.
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Several of these clients that come to Burning Tree or or have
19:29
had the opportunity to come to new waters, they get in the
19:32
funnel, but they always seem to hold on to the rim or they just
19:37
stick their toe in and they're really good at telling people
19:41
what they want to hear. Basically their power sorts,
19:43
right? Oh, I got this, I know exactly
19:48
what to do now. But they never really invest in
19:51
getting in the funnel. That funnel is representative of
19:56
of the outer part of the funnel is resistance, the inner part of
20:00
the funnel. Is the the flow of life and it's
20:04
the acceptance right as a client gets invested in, in creating a
20:11
relationship with honesty. They're going to move towards
20:14
the center of the funnel and they're going to, they're going
20:15
to have an experience with and they're going to like it.
20:19
Then they're going to hear some truth about themselves or
20:21
they're going to bump up against themselves or some kind of
20:24
circumstances going to come involved in their life.
20:27
Most, I would say 100% of chronic relapsers are resistant
20:35
to adversity. So adversity is going to come up
20:41
and they're going to migrate toward the edge of the funnel
20:44
trying to get out. But as they move down and they
20:49
start having experience, the distance between the resistance
20:54
and the acceptance, the length of time becomes shorter and
20:56
shorter and shorter. And burning tree is not about
21:00
just holding on to a client and hope through osmosis that
21:04
they're just going to change. We're going to be constantly
21:07
pushing them to to venture out to the edge of the funnel so
21:14
they can come back to the center.
21:17
And as a client engages in accepting diversity on life's
21:24
terms, then they come out the other end of that funnel.
21:30
They've been through the 12 steps and it's about wide open
21:34
freedom. That's what recovery guarantees.
21:37
I love that. So that's the analogy that I'd
21:40
like to use. There's many ups and downs,
21:42
twists and turns to it, and Lord knows I had many ups and downs,
21:48
twists and turns to it. But life is so rewarding when we
21:53
take the position that was really intended for us when we
21:57
were born. Yeah.
22:00
And I think that, you know, when I think about, you know these
22:03
longterm programs and all that and and and I know Ryan's
22:06
dealing with this on a daily basis where people are just,
22:08
they can't even fathom the fact that works, asking them to take
22:13
even three months to go and do something like this.
22:15
And the reality is. You know, listen, we're we're
22:18
asking you to to make an entire psychic shift here, right?
22:22
And that is not going to happen in three weeks, 4 weeks, 5
22:25
weeks, six weeks, right. And it's just not, you know,
22:27
maybe you'll have a, you'll have a lot of insight and you'll have
22:30
a lot of growth during that period, but you're but you're
22:32
still truly the foundation is not there, right.
22:36
And it's super high risk. So, but it's it's really
22:38
interesting where you know, I just think back to my own
22:42
experience and treatment and all that and I didn't.
22:44
Pretty much close to 90 days in in in inpatient residential
22:48
facility and then they'd sober living after that.
22:51
And really I had no intention of of doing that long a period of
22:55
time. But you know, I had the, the,
22:57
the, you know, the blessing of while I was in treatment, just
23:01
understanding that like OK, life is not over now because I can't
23:04
drink or use for the rest of my life.
23:06
Like look at all the amazing things I can do now.
23:08
Look at all the things that I've always wanted to do but I've
23:10
never done because I've been sitting in a basement drinking
23:12
by myself for five years. You know when you can kind of
23:15
attach to that and have that perspective and it's hard, it's
23:19
really hard for people to get there, right?
23:21
But it certainly is not going to happen in 2-3 weeks in most
23:25
cases. You know, it's just not.
23:27
And and then when I look back at that time, sorry, go on.
23:33
Yeah, just like you drinking in that in that basement, you
23:36
didn't just start drinking immediately in the basement.
23:39
It took time to get to that point.
23:42
That's all I wanted. Yep, I just wanted to.
23:44
Yeah. And and you know and I looked
23:45
back at that, you know basically year that I took to really kind
23:49
of focus on on building this foundation and and it was like
23:53
the blink of an eye. I mean I think back to that year
23:56
and it just went you know, so fast and and and really I would
24:01
never change a thing. You know, I'm so glad that I did
24:04
what I did and I put that time in and I had the.
24:07
You know, I just had the awareness to do that, you know,
24:09
And I truly feel like I was touched by the hand of God and
24:12
and you know, he just really kind of gave me that awareness
24:15
to say, you know what, I'm just going to get out of my own way.
24:18
We're going to surrender to the process and I'm going to do
24:20
whatever you guys tell me anything to do.
24:21
And when I did that, it got so easy.
24:24
It got so easy. So yeah, the resistance because
24:27
you got in the middle of the funnel.
24:30
Right, 100%. So many of us were not willing
24:32
to accept that we have a fatal disease.
24:34
And that's really what it comes down to.
24:36
That's what I see in our clients as we're working with them again
24:38
and again. They think this is an
24:39
overreaction because they don't have a fatal disease.
24:41
If we were marching in those rooms and telling them they had
24:43
pancreatic cancer and this was a type of chemotherapy, that would
24:47
affect that, how we wouldn't be able to hold them back from the
24:50
chemo clinic, right. Wouldn't matter if it was in
24:52
Texas, wouldn't matter if it took six months.
24:55
And that was true for me too. And and I had to realize.
24:58
That's exactly what I have. I had to realize that.
25:01
I had to realize I was gonna die from it, cuz otherwise I wasn't
25:04
gonna put it first. You know, I'm someone who
25:06
personally, I had a very limited, like, kind of recovery
25:09
and treatment experience. I had to go and figure it out on
25:11
my own because resources and insurance, they just weren't
25:13
available at that time. And I would much rather do this
25:16
on. I would have much rather done it
25:18
on a ranch in Texas than working in a Chinese food restaurant.
25:21
You know what I mean? Going to 7:00 AM meetings
25:23
because I work all night and I think about the pain that I put
25:26
my family to not just an addiction but in early sobriety
25:28
too. Getting to know my now wife you
25:30
know to be able what we're offering people is is relief
25:35
from a fatal disease in as comfortable a location as
25:38
possible. But until they can hear that
25:40
they're not going to accept it and and it's it's a wonderful
25:43
that they get to wait and they get to have all those
25:45
breakthroughs and I did have those breakthroughs in sobriety,
25:47
but to be able to be shepherded. And being an intimate community,
25:51
there's no intimate community. I'm sure, like what you guys
25:53
have going on a burning tree, the way that people get to know
25:56
each other and hold each other. It's just, I'm sure it's
25:59
wonderful to be a part of. Yeah, yeah, we don't recover by
26:05
ourself. No, 100% so.
26:10
Yeah, and that's the beauty of. Of this life after, right.
26:13
I mean it becomes so full And and you know, I I also just
26:18
wanted to kind of touch on you know the other the other
26:20
component that I think is really important for families to hear
26:23
is they're kind of trying to navigate you know these these
26:26
complex issues with their loved ones is you know the the fact
26:30
that you are kind of a mom and pop operation, right.
26:32
You're a small operation. You run pretty lean.
26:35
You know, lean from lean from the census aspect, but not from
26:39
staffing, but. You guys, I think that that is a
26:42
huge thing for me, right. When I'm when we're referring
26:44
clients out, we're typically we're trying to look for a
26:47
smaller more boutique type program that's kind of family
26:50
owned and operated in my experience.
26:52
It's just you know you're going to get better service, you're
26:54
going to get better care. You know clinical team, you know
26:57
a lot of the time is just going to be a little bit more bought
26:59
in. They're probably treated a
27:01
little bit better, cultures a little bit better.
27:03
So, you know, yeah, talk about that a little bit if you could.
27:07
So the the, the, the biggest advantage is the length of time
27:16
for these clients is very peer driven, right.
27:19
So you have you have senior clients that's been there for
27:23
8-9, ten months. So they get to implement the
27:27
principles of recovery in their life and they get to give back
27:31
to the newcomers that are coming in.
27:32
So that aspect is huge on building community and then that
27:37
community is what's going to translate into them implemented
27:42
in their life. The other thing on the family
27:45
aspect of it is they have been so wrapped up and so involved in
27:53
trying to fix it, but not really taking an investment in fixing
28:00
themselves that this period of time where and quite frankly I'm
28:05
just going to say it their loved one is their drug, right?
28:11
Absolutely. So as they start having an
28:13
experience of being free from having to fix it or or control
28:19
it, both sides of the coin can heal and then both sides of the
28:30
coin can come back together in a new relationship.
28:34
And that I hope that answers. I think that answers what you're
28:37
talking about. Yeah, absolutely.
28:40
And I think that you know, obviously and the family, you
28:43
know programming that you guys do now, do you guys do, I would
28:46
assume you have kind of several family, yeah, so.
28:50
On campus events or throughout the time that you're there.
28:53
So fan, so this is the so with family, a lot of communication
28:59
with them in the beginning we do what we call a post admission
29:04
intervention. That's a process that I get to
29:06
facilitate. The client's been with us two to
29:13
six weeks, 95% of the clients unless I'm out of town, I've got
29:21
to meet them when they were in detox that are coming to the
29:24
ranch. So I'm making connection with
29:27
them in the very beginning or I've talked to them on the very
29:30
front end, or sometimes I've talked to the family on the very
29:34
front end. So client comes to the ranch.
29:38
We're assembling the entire support system, right?
29:44
The client's counselor, myself, the power in their life could be
29:50
mom, dad, Mom's in Atlanta, Dad's in Jacksonville, FL.
29:55
They're divorced, and then maybe the loved one has four siblings,
30:00
bringing everybody together, creating a relationship with a
30:04
meeting with them, expanding on and and inviting them to set
30:12
realistic boundaries. Not boundaries that they think
30:15
we want to hear, but realistic boundaries.
30:19
Because what we want to do is help solidify this client in the
30:23
funnel. They're going to test the
30:26
boundaries because they have already been testing boundaries
30:30
or or families. To all of you, don't do this.
30:34
You're you're not going to get any more money or you're not
30:36
going to We're not going to do this.
30:39
No. If you leave, don't call me
30:43
because I'm not answering the phone.
30:44
Well, that's not realistic, OK? We want, we want to help the
30:48
family set something that is their truth.
30:53
So we set these boundaries, we bring the client and they're
30:57
only going to see their loved one 1020 minutes.
31:00
It's basically a business meeting that we're conducting
31:04
and that business meeting is for their loved one that's at
31:07
Burning Tree to hear what the family's boundaries are and what
31:12
their hopes are and and and what an opportunity that they are
31:17
giving their loved one. Then the, then the then the
31:20
client gets to accept or they may bump up against themselves,
31:25
they may be angry many, it's very organic.
31:29
And then they accept what's going on.
31:33
And then we want to hear what their commitment is and what
31:36
we're looking for is for them to verbally commit.
31:39
And we know that every addict alcoholic is very good at
31:42
committing to doing things and then it's up to us to help them
31:47
put the action forward to actually realize it.
31:51
So that's the first process. We don't have visitation every
31:54
month at Burning Tree. We have visitation every other
31:57
month. A client will have had an
32:00
opportunity to be with us for at least 30 days prior to a visit.
32:05
So we have visitation every other month, every even month,
32:10
which would be the third Sunday of the month.
32:15
When a family has a loved one. That's with us their first
32:18
visitation. They get to attend a family
32:21
workshop that we facilitate at our Dallas office.
32:24
That family workshop consists of our owner and founder, our
32:28
executive Director, our clinical director, our, our transitions
32:33
director, an alumni, an alumni family, myself and sometimes our
32:41
Chief Operating Officer who's also a alum of the program,
32:45
Brooke McKenzie will be there and then the families.
32:49
And then what we're doing is our goal is to answer their
32:53
questions about what Burning Tree is and what our processes
32:57
are without them having to ask them, but then giving them a
33:00
format where they can ask. And it's very interactive and
33:03
it's very you know the alumni and the family, they do a real
33:08
good job of of explaining what's gone on, what helped them change
33:14
and the and the and the roadblocks and then we don't
33:19
have family program until the client is through and in the
33:25
amends process we want them to internalize what's going on.
33:29
The family program is a three day intensive.
33:34
Usually it's two to four clients just depending on the line, the
33:39
lineup and their and their loved ones.
33:42
Some some clients will go through family two or three
33:44
times, depending on what the family dynamics are.
33:49
It's we bring in a lady named. Oh, I'm drawing a Blake.
33:55
She's got a counseling office. Angie Booyah.
34:01
She has a counseling office in Dallas called Sparrow House
34:03
counseling. Very, very She wrong.
34:09
She is LPCLPC and then our clinical director and they
34:15
facilitate. So we have somebody that comes
34:19
in that's not really connected with the family or the client
34:22
and then works in conjunction with our clinical director.
34:25
And it's a lot of psychodrama, different modalities that they
34:29
use in the process and it's a three day experience that's
34:35
awesome. Every family that comes to
34:37
Burning Tree, they have been through numerous family programs
34:40
and they're very jaded. Sure.
34:44
So it's. Very different treat treatment.
34:46
They want to treat treatment like a fishbowl with which to
34:49
look at the loved one, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:52
And then and then they and then they do family program and then
34:56
and then the client continues to do treatment and before they
35:00
transition from residential treatment they start integrating
35:05
into transitions and that's a slow process.
35:08
You know we give them a little bit of room, pull back see how
35:15
they handle it give them a little bit more room, let them
35:19
let them navigate some adversity pull back and it's it's it's a
35:26
very organic process Each each client has you know different
35:31
needs and different circumstances.
35:38
We do lots of trauma work in conjunction with treatment you
35:45
know all kinds of modalities that they use Drew McLaughlin
35:50
and and and our clinical director Megan Bowman, they'll
35:53
do EMDR and some psychodrama and they'll utilize equine therapy
36:00
and other other opportunities. And sometimes we may find that a
36:06
client needs a little bit more and and and we use some some
36:11
partners you know like onsite or milestones or or or the bridge
36:19
or something like that in conjunction with then they'll
36:21
come back and continue their treatment or what we're very,
36:26
we're very collaborative and we want the best to maximize the
36:31
opportunity for the client to get and stay sober cuz that's
36:34
what we're about. So you've had clients go to
36:37
onsite and do you know a trauma workshop, the living center
36:41
program, I would assume, and then come back to you guys.
36:44
That's awesome. What I what I love about this
36:47
process I think is it's really evocative of actual recovery,
36:49
like 30 day residential treatment is fantastic.
36:52
I think we can all agree on that, especially for those it's
36:55
effective for. You go in for 30 days.
36:57
You do like the graduation ceremony at the end like
36:59
everyone collapse, but it also paints this picture kind of like
37:02
the show intervention that recovery is just this straight
37:05
lineup and we're just going to kind of rocket ship right up.
37:08
And my experience working in transitional living is there are
37:11
going to be peaks and they're going to be valleys throughout
37:13
the recovery process. And we're going to take some
37:14
steps back and hopefully it doesn't involve use right.
37:18
But we're going to crash sometimes and for someone to be
37:20
present and and to attend to that and just acknowledge it as
37:23
a reality is so, so important in the recovery landscape.
37:27
Oh yeah. And the other piece is our
37:33
clients, they're going to be invested in the in the recovery
37:37
process right along the whole, the whole thing.
37:40
When they get ready to make amends, you know they're going
37:44
to be, they're going to be instructed through their
37:46
sponsor, they're going to put in for a request to go on a pass to
37:51
make amends. They're going to take a buddy
37:54
with them that's a peer in the community and they're going to
37:57
go on a men's. They're going to go on a men's
37:59
trip so they can get some more power in their life and project
38:07
accepting what their past was and making amends for like, hey,
38:14
this is what I did. Is there anything I missed?
38:18
What is it I can do to make this right and and doing the actions
38:21
of doing this? We want them to experience all
38:24
of the steps. Yeah.
38:27
And what are you doing with clients who are anti 12 steps
38:33
that are just really not involved in or open to any sort
38:38
of 12 step programming are they just So I would say, I would say
38:44
this is the common thing that comes to burn a tree or the
38:47
common scenario the client will come to us and they say I've
38:53
done the 12 steps, they don't work for me.
38:56
Yeah, tell me what that looks like.
38:59
What did that experience look like?
39:01
Is that you go into a couple meetings and just sitting in the
39:04
back of the room, never introducing yourself, never
39:06
talking to anybody. Because if that's what it looked
39:08
like, then that's not really what recovery is, right?
39:12
Yeah. So more than likely every client
39:16
that says that they worked the 12 steps and it didn't work for
39:19
them, they they never worked the 12 steps.
39:23
They they they basically just gave the 12 steps lip service,
39:28
right. They didn't invest in all.
39:30
So the beneficialness of having a community that's invested in
39:35
the in the 12 steps, the people that are on the fence or on the
39:40
edge of the funnel for the 12 steps, they start having an
39:46
experience with it because it's the whole culture, right?
39:50
And then once they do, then they take off.
39:55
Yeah. And that's been our you'll.
39:57
Bring those folks in and and hopefully they attach to it.
40:00
They you know the attraction you're right and hopefully they
40:03
see the rest of the crew is is all super engaged and involved
40:08
and and and then they hop on board as well once they kind of
40:10
see the benefits from that aspect.
40:12
Yeah. And Eric, the other aspect?
40:14
Is. Oh, go ahead.
40:17
I, I just have a quick question. You know, one of the things that
40:19
I think we see is a lot of guys who who they've been
40:22
institutionalized, sometimes they've gone to therapeutic
40:24
boarding schools or wilderness programs starting at 16.
40:27
And these guys have been in treatment for 10 years.
40:29
And there's a fear that there's a little treatment dependence
40:31
there, like they can live in these institutionalized
40:34
environments, but they're scared or they can't engage when.
40:37
Or is there a point, I know you guys are longterm.
40:39
Is there a point where you have to push some guys out of the
40:41
nest and what does that look like?
40:43
Oh, yes, so. We have an owner and we have a
40:49
philosophy of burning tree. We're not in the business of
40:52
taking these families money to change their loved one.
40:56
If the client continues to not put the effort forward and it's
41:00
it's all about behavior, right? If they're not putting the
41:04
investment or following directions or or doing the
41:07
things that we're expecting them to do, we're we're not just
41:11
going to, we're not just going to hold on to them.
41:13
We're going to find an. Opportunity for them to move on
41:17
somewhere else or a client is going to find an exit because
41:23
they don't want to do what we're asking them to do, right?
41:27
And then they hope that their family's going to cave and go
41:33
back to what they used to do, which was pick up the pieces and
41:36
allow them to continue to do what they do majority of the
41:40
time, I would say. 30% of the clients that come to Burning
41:46
Tree, they're going to test the waters, they're going to walk
41:49
off, they're going to leave, they're going to see if the the
41:52
family's really invested in holding the line for them to to
41:59
be in this funnel of change and what that does, it helps the
42:07
collective group, right? Yeah, deep and their investment
42:15
in putting the effort forward, it's not easy.
42:19
Burning tree is not easy. No, this is easy.
42:24
High reward, very high reward for the entire system.
42:32
And what's your? I want to tell you something
42:35
test rate. Do you guys track that?
42:37
Do you have any idea? It's?
42:38
Very hard. It's very hard to to track that.
42:44
I can tell you this from my personal experience and from
42:48
many others that I know that are in their recovery in their life,
42:55
the clients and the families. So the clients that worked all
43:01
12 steps and were invested in following directions and were
43:08
invested in. Always looking for opportunities
43:11
to not fall back into the resistance.
43:15
The success rate is huge. Those families, those families
43:21
that invest in their own recovery, 12 step recovery in
43:27
conjunction with working with other professionals involved in
43:30
their life that increases. The families can destroy what
43:36
was gone, what took five months. They can, they can tear it down
43:40
in in 5 minutes. As long as the entire system has
43:48
made these productive changes and then got into action around
43:51
those changes, the success rate is very high.
43:55
The other thing that goes on with increasing the success rate
44:00
is. Especially with the family and
44:03
especially with the client, they know everything about what we do
44:08
and how we do it. The client knows what the
44:13
expected link to stay is. The expected link to stay is
44:16
based upon them and their progress.
44:19
We don't want anybody at Burning Tree Ranch any longer than they
44:24
need to be there. The only thing that's fixed on
44:29
time is the transition program and that's 12 months.
44:33
The other thing we are nicotine free at Burning Tree have been
44:39
for for seven years. I would say the number of
44:45
smokers and tobacco users have decreased over time.
44:53
What I mean is. We do probably 1 to 3 admissions
45:00
a month. The past few months, none of
45:07
those people were nicotine users, which is, which is
45:11
astounding. But we do have the ones that
45:14
that are right and we completely take the nicotine out of the
45:22
equation. If they're dependent on upon
45:25
nicotine, we're going to have a cessation plan where they're
45:28
going to use a patch or we're going to use a lozenge.
45:31
The families are on board with it and the clients are on.
45:34
I mean they're not on board with it.
45:36
But that's the fact we're we're not we're not we're not going to
45:41
we're we're about setting the example of 100% honesty at the
45:46
get go, which then in turn is good to trade to their big nest.
45:51
Pardon. I said I didn't know if burning
45:54
tree would have been for me. Man, I I'm with you 100%.
45:56
I know it would have saved my life.
45:57
But I don't know if I could have quit smoking.
45:59
That's something well, you. You have.
46:01
You didn't need burning tree. Yeah, yeah, no, that's true.
46:05
That's true. What about caffeine?
46:06
You put caffeine in the coffee. So we do.
46:08
So we do have caffeine. Yes.
46:10
Ohh nice. Yeah, little you know I don't
46:13
clean a lot the. Kids can't drink caffeine till
46:16
till bedtime. But yes, we have caffeine.
46:19
Yeah. And its transition process is
46:24
completely nicotine free. Wow.
46:26
Which adds to success. Yeah, it does.
46:32
Yep. And we're not, we're not afraid
46:34
that it's going to affect a client coming to us because
46:39
we're not allowing them to smoke.
46:40
We're just not. We're.
46:42
We're not. We're not.
46:44
We're invested in 100% success and we want to do, I think.
46:48
That's the thing. So much.
46:50
Yeah, that says so much about, you know, you guys as a program,
46:54
your ethics, you know, really kind of standing behind what
46:58
what you kind of are set forward as your as your mission.
47:02
And because most programs do allow, quite frankly, because
47:06
you know, people won't admit, you know in a lot of cases if
47:09
you can't smoke at a facility, so obviously.
47:12
You guys are creating a barrier there, but it's important to use
47:15
a higher success rate, better outcomes.
47:18
So that's amazing. I think that says a lot about
47:20
kind of what you guys are doing in general and how invested you
47:23
are in, in truly making people well, as opposed to just getting
47:27
heads and beds down at the ranch right there, you know, correct,
47:31
because it would be so easy to fold on that.
47:32
But the clients that you guys are dealing with, they have to
47:35
know that there are natural consequences and that there are
47:38
lines in the sand and there are rules that you just have to
47:40
follow in life, you know, And it's something that I was so
47:44
resistant to learning. And so many of us, we just
47:46
naturally chomp at the bit to be told no.
47:49
I mean, do you remember how much energy you would invest to not
47:52
be told no in something? You know, well, we like, we like
47:57
flipping the verbiage. I really like using the.
48:01
The verbiage of this is something I get to do.
48:07
Yeah, it's still. A No opportunity as well, right?
48:12
And opportunity. And it's all about the culture.
48:15
And a shift in perspective, right.
48:17
When you kind of make that little bit of a shift, you're
48:18
like okay. That is a little bit of a
48:20
different connotation now, so. But well, listen, Eric, we're
48:24
coming up on our time and it's been such a pleasure getting to
48:29
see you and we haven't connected in a while, but I'm actually
48:32
back in Texas next week, so we'll have to do you have lunch
48:37
thing that? Yeah, let's have lunch.
48:39
But would you, is there anything that you wanna plug here?
48:41
Maybe Burning Tree's website or anything like that?
48:45
I mean just burningtree.com but what I really wanna ask is.
48:52
You, Graham, and I really like the the name New Waters.
48:58
Thank you. And the and the the the, the,
49:03
the message that it puts out then there in the universe.
49:07
How did how did New Waters how did it come to.
49:11
Yes, please. So that was really my wife and I
49:16
really just kind of brainstorming when we were kind
49:19
of creating the program and and and I think it probably actually
49:23
was my wife who came up with it. She's she's really good at that
49:27
that kind of stuff and and I when I heard it I was like ooh I
49:29
like that but we were just really kind of floating ideas
49:33
and and just the idea of. You know, water I think is is a
49:37
very kind of powerful energy and and you know is an important
49:41
energy in my life. I'm a Pisces, I love the water,
49:45
I love free diving, I love spear fishing, I love fly fishing.
49:49
So you know, I really wanted to have a water aspect in it and
49:53
then just the aspect of of you know, finding new waters,
49:56
finding new waterways and and a new life recovery and all that
49:59
aspect of it kind of fit well. So it was good, it fit and we're
50:05
doing great here and it's been a really fun project to get off
50:08
the ground. And then how did you come about?
50:12
New Waters is in North Carolina. How did you come about finding
50:16
your location? So we there was a couple
50:19
gentlemen here that I really knew that I could build
50:22
something around and knowing that I would kind of be back and
50:25
forth from Texas to Carolina. So you know really in in looking
50:30
at you know the market and obviously Raleigh is an
50:33
incredible city to to have a business right now it's it's
50:36
blowing up you know very similar to to Austin in a lot of ways.
50:39
It almost reminds me of Austin kind of 10 years ago, right.
50:43
And tons of industry, you know coming to Raleigh.
50:46
And so you know, there was, there was just a lot of really
50:49
positive reasons to do something here and it coupled with the
50:53
fact that they needed resources, right.
50:55
There wasn't really anything like what we're doing here.
50:59
At this kind of higher level kind of smaller boutique but
51:02
really you know sophisticated detox.
51:05
So the opportunity was great and we had the the team was here and
51:09
and we just kind of we went for it and it's been great.
51:12
Well, I'm excited to hear about how you came up with the name
51:17
and the location. And I'm really honored to to
51:21
meet you both on your show and thank you for having me.
51:27
I'm honored. Fantastic.
51:29
I know we're honored to have you and always great to connect with
51:32
you, man, and see your conferences and all.
51:35
All dapper in your orange and orange.
51:37
You grateful. There you go.
51:40
There you go, #longterm works. You got longterm works, so if
51:46
anybody wants to find Burning tree recovery, Burning tree
51:49
lodge, it's burning tree recovery.com.
51:53
Yeah, burningtree.com. And or burningtreeprograms.com
51:58
and then 866-287-2877. Fantastic.
52:04
All right. Thanks so much, Eric.
52:06
We'll talk soon. Thanks, Eric.
52:07
Have a great day.