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372: The Neurodivergent Learner, Emily King, Ph.D. · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Academic learning is the cherry on top, and if the
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: layers underneath it aren't in place, no strategy is going
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: to make homework, testing or school mornings go smoothly. Today
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: we're talking about what actually has to happen before a
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: neurodivergent kid can learn feeling rested, safe and connected, and
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: having a nervous system that isn't already maxed out. By
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: eight am, I'm talking with returning guest doctor Emily King,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist and former school psychologist, all about her
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: new book, The Neurodivergent Learner, and what parents and teachers
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: both need to understand about how neurodivergent kids actually learn.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I'm Penny Williams, and this is beautifully complex. Welcome back
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: everyone to beautifully Complex. I have a returning guest with me,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: and I'm so excited about that. Doctor Emily King is
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: here to talk about neurodivergent learners. Yeah, what do we
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: need to know? How do we help them?
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: All the things? Let everybody know who you are and
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: what you do, and then we'll jump in.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me again. I'm starting to
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: lose count how many times we've been able to chat
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: on a podcast. I am doctor Emily King, and I
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: am a licensed psychologist in North Carolina, but originally trained
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: as a school psychologist, and I work with preschool through
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: young adult age kids, but mainly these days I'm working
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: with their parents and teachers. My practice has just evolved
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: over time from school work to private practice therapy work,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: to working with the parents and teachers around the child
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: and helping the systems and the relationships around our kids.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: And then of course I'm a parent to two very
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: different neurodivergent boys. Not different, well maybe you could say
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: different from the world, but just different from each other. Like,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: you know, and you have more than one child, You're like,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: how in the world did these two people share DNA?
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: But they do.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: So I wrote this book to be a resource for
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: parents and teachers. The audience is parents, but I'm already
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: starting to hear back from teachers that it's been really
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: helpful for them as well. I had to break it
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: down into different ages because I couldn't fit it all in,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: So this particular book does focus on pre K through
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: kind of early middle school years. Okay, fingers crossed. My
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: hope is that there is a sequel for teens and
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: young adults. But yeah, that I just wanted to put
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: all the things i've I've learned that kids and families
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: and teachers have taught me in one place, so that
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: parents and teachers could help these kids learn in any setting,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: not just school.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it struck me when you talked about working
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: more now with parents and teachers like the adult eults
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: in the lives of our NERD virgin kads, because really
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: it's a lot about the adults and the environments that
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: we create, right, It's not about changing kids.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I can't tell you how many times this
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: crossed my mind before I ever shifted my practice. I mean,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I still do see some really teens who I started
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: seeing as young children that I've just continued clinical work with,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: But the majority of my work is around the adults
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: because I'll be, you know, years ago working in play
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy with kids, and the things
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: that stress them out are not necessarily anything that they're
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: doing wrong or that they I mean, sometimes it's something
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: that they have insight into and that they're working on.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: But many times with autism or the impulsivity and short
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: attention spans that come with ADHD, all these kids are
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: doing the best that they can, and our systems are
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: not a line not only with how they learn, but
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: aligning with the environment, the size of the school, the
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: size of the classroom, the training of the teacher, Which
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: is why I do all my professional development training with teachers,
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: because you know, general education teachers might get one class
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: to talk about abnormal psychology or special education or whatever
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: it's called, behavior management, you know, whatever it's called. But
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: there's so much science, nervous systems, science, memory and learning
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: science behind how not only how we all learn, but
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: how specifically neurodivergent kids learn. That has to be understood,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: especially in the general education classroom where a majority of
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: the students with average to above average intelligence are most
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: of their day as they should be, they should be
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: on the general curriculum. But there's so many problems that
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: can come up from sensory in a big classroom, or
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: friendships and a big group, or I mean, name it,
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  Speaker 2: I see it in my practice. But I so many
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: times thought, I've got to go upstream. I've got to
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  Speaker 2: go upstream to the parents and the teachers that could
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  Speaker 2: no more be more educated about this, have more strategies
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: prevent some of the stress that's coming into my play
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: therapy room or my therapy room. And also many times
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  Speaker 2: I will work with kids and I know any therapists
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  Speaker 2: and teachers probably listening to this, know what I mean.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: They can tell you all the things, they can tell you,
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  Speaker 2: all the strategies you can teach them, all the emotions.
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  Speaker 2: They can know all the stuff, and then they struggle
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: to apply it. So there came a point in my
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: clinical work where I felt it is so much more
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  Speaker 2: effective for me to empower the parents and the educators
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: who are in the day to day with our kids,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: rather than relying on our kids to generalize information when
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: that's not a strong skill set for them, or remember
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: information a day later. Have the impulse control to think, oh,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: I you know, I went over this with Doctorrmalley the
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: other day. I should apply this skill now, and then
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: that's that shift is sailed already by the time the
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  Speaker 2: child had that thought.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: Yep, yep. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So that's my thought process and how I've evolved over
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: the years and clinical work. But it absolutely over the
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: last five to ten years has shifted my focus as
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: well to the adults. The adults in the room.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and what you're kind of describing is the difference
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  Speaker 1: between expecting kids to fit and taking it upon the
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: adults to help the kids who don't fit to still
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: be able to get an education and learn right. And
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: that's very different from the traditional model that you know,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: you and I grew up with for so many years
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: has been and we're talking more and more about it,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: and it just makes me so incredibly happy because my
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: own kids experience in school is not great, and I
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: wish it could have been different. I wish you just
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: would have had more educators understood. So books like yours
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: are starting to maybe turn that tide a little bit,
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  Speaker 1: turn that understanding. What do parents and teachers need to
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: know about how neurodivergent kids learn? And I know there's
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: lots of different facetstus and every student is different, right,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: but what are some things that maybe we need to
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  Speaker 1: be watching for, looking at thinking about.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So the whole first section of my book is
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: preparing your child to learn, which a parent of a
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: neurotypical child just thinks they're five. We get an outfit,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: we get a backpack, we get school supplies, and we
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: send them on. Right, the kindergarten teacher will know what
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: to do and actually it's wild, but that works for
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: neurotypical children. They learn the structure, they adjust to kindergarten
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: in a couple weeks, and you have a gut feeling
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: as a parent of a preschooler who whether or not
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: they have a diagnosis or not. You usually know by
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: the time a child is four or five, and the
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: knowing comes from this feeling of hesitancy about dropping your
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: kid off at school. You're not quite sure how it's
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: gonna go. And every kindergarten parent feels that way. But
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: it's a different level. It's like an advanced I think
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: de Wie Reaver says, this is advanced parenting. Yeah, it's
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  Speaker 2: this like extra feeling of I'm worried that the actual
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: seasoned educators might not know what to do with my
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: child today, or I might not know how my child
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: will respond. So I want parents to feel empowered to
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  Speaker 2: know what to look for in a school, to know
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: how to communicate, you know their child not only needs,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: but interest and strength, so that a teacher can capital
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: on that to help a child feel included from day one,
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  Speaker 2: not just after something happens, so that we can problem
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  Speaker 2: solve it and then we have to really think about
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  Speaker 2: our child's energy and our child's motivation. And I have
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: not yet even mentioned we are not at all even
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: getting to academics yet. Yeah, So my main takeaway from
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: this book is that academic learning is like the cherry
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  Speaker 2: on top, yes, and everything else underneath has to align.
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  Speaker 2: Our child has to be rested, they have to feel safe,
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: they have to feel connected. They can't be hungry or
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: have a tummy ache. You know, there are all these
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: things that our children are very sensitive to that can
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  Speaker 2: really throw off learning. So there's lots of prevention I
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  Speaker 2: talk about and the whole first third of the book
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  Speaker 2: that I hope will help parents feel empowered. And then
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: going into the middle of the book, we really get
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  Speaker 2: into okay, well what about homework and what about testing?
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  Speaker 2: And what about anxiety? And what about friendship? So it's
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  Speaker 2: these like bigger issues that we all know are going
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: to happen in a group learning environment and how our
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: kids navigate that. But we I always come back to
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  Speaker 2: that layered approach of they have to feel safe, and
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  Speaker 2: then on top of that, they have to feel connected,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: they have to be motivated by what's going on, and
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  Speaker 2: they also the pacing has to be right. We don't
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: talk a lot about pacing, but we all know, like
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  Speaker 2: when we're working with kids that have a slower processing speed,
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  Speaker 2: it's obvious that we slow down. What's not as obvious
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  Speaker 2: is when we need to speed up. And there are
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: kids who are either gifted or have ADHD or twice
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: exceptional that if the learning is if the classroom learning
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  Speaker 2: is going too slowly, they are going to check out
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  Speaker 2: and be bored and possibly disengage and we'll see negative behavior.
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  Speaker 2: And so it's not about slowing it down or speeding
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  Speaker 2: it up for everyone. This is how we have to
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: change our construct to meet the child with the the
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  Speaker 2: alignment of the curriculum and the skills or the pace
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  Speaker 2: and the skills, not just an intervention, which I wanted
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  Speaker 2: to add to your point before about this traditional educational model.
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  Speaker 2: What we have done with and hey, we've got to
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: start somewhere, but what we have done with special education
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: is we built a special education system the same way
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: we built the medical system. So there is a diagnosis
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: and then we have a quote unquote treatment or intervention.
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  Speaker 2: And while that sort of works for like a learning
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: disability or for a certain symptom in ADHD or anxiety.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't really work for complex neurodevelopment. It just doesn't.
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  Speaker 2: So I want everyone to shift from thinking about this
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  Speaker 2: like linear there's a problem and then I have a
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: solution and then it will be fixed. It's more of
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: a dynamic. It's definitely a dynamic problem, but also they're
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: multiple moving parts, and it's really more about thinking through
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: these children and like waves of growth, Like they're gonna
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: have seasons and waves of growth. We all have seen
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: that in our kids, and then there's gonna be backslide.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean that something's not working. It could
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: mean they're growing, It could mean they have stress in
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: their life right now, it could mean they're making some
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: other transition. I've worked with so many kids who, you know,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: if they move homes, or they lose a pet, or
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: other parents get divorced, we see a regression in skills
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: or in new learning because their energy is going to
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: tolerating that change. And that's true for all of us,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Like who wants to learn something new when you're going
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: through a big life stressor nobody. We have to sometimes
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: and as adults we can like suck it up, but
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: we usually end up getting a migraine or getting sick
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: or something. Right, So when we think about our human
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: bodies as these nervous systems that are constantly absorbing information
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: and sensory input and relationships, it's not this medical model
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: of something is wrong with your learning and this is
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: what we're going to do to fix it. It's not linear.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: It's dynamic.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and most of us have to learn that
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: the hard way. Yeah, the very long hard way.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I did. Yeah, no, you know. I was handed a
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: literal fact sheet on ADHD from the pediatrician and it
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: was that same standard stuff and attention and pulsivity put
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: them at the front of the class, right, all that stuff.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: And I was like, this doesn't work for my case.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: And some of that might work for one kid somewhere,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: and so that is true. However, if you're a parent
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: listening this and you're thinking that standard stuff didn't work
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: for my kids, it's okay because there's nobody else like
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: your kid and we just haven't found the thing that's
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: the best fit. Yet.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: One thing I've learned over the years when raising a
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: neurodivergent kid is that you're thinking about how to support
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: your kid's overall health a lot, not searching for miracle solutions,
• 14:26
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• 14:31
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• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Now there's just so much more complexity to it. You know,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: we don't really talk about the emotional piece when we
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: get a diagnosis of ADHD, right, we don't talk about
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: the nervous system. The nervous system is what governs whether
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: or not our thinking brain is even accessible.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Lightly.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: That safety that you were talking about is crucial for learning, absolutely.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: I just did a podcast with de Wie Reever and
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Emily Edlin about that. It was about ADHD, but we
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: spent a lot of time talking about the emotional side
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: of ADHD and how it's not even something that we
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: think of a lot, but almost every parent will say, oh,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: my child is emotionally sensitive or emotionally explosive is what
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: I call it, where the attention and the regulation related
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: to emotions is absolutely harder for them. And we see
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: that in classrooms, and we see it most often with frustration, tolerance,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: with when learning comes up when we when we think
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: about how the emotions of ADHD affect learning, it's mainly
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: with frustration tolerance. And I really you know, kids wanting
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: to quit easily, that stamina, it takes the energy, emotional
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: energy it takes to persevere and keep going. We talk
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: a lot about how, you know, kids are distracted or
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: you know, kids may shout out in class, and that
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: could happen. But what truly gets in the way of
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: ADHD learners retaining information is their ability to stick with
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: it long enough to strengthen that muscle of frustration tolerance.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Because they're so quick to give up. They're so quick
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: to just abandon whatever task it is because it feels bad,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: it feels overwhelming.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if they see that, it's easier for the
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: kids around them. I think that plays into it a
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: lot too, the emotions and the quickness to just stop trying.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: You know, if I can't do it in the way
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: that everybody around me is doing it, maybe I shouldn't
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: do it at all.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Right, it's easier to quit, Right, It's easier to quit
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: than to try and not do it well. Or some
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: of them will have insight into the fact that if
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I try really hard, I might totally blow my top
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: in front of my friends, and I don't want to
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: do that. So it's easier for me just to quit
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: instead of, you know, really try to do this and
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: end up throwing something or breaking something and embarrassing myself.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And they're trying to hold all that in
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: at school too, you know, they're trying really hard not
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: to have explosive emotions, not to be sensitive and upset,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: and all of that energy is like pulling brain power
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: from those cognitive functions into other parts of the brain
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: and the body.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I talk in this book and all day
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: long about how we see different things in different settings.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: We see kids who seem totally fine to the teacher,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: and then the parent is like, they are a puddle
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: on the floor at four point thirty in the afternoon,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: or there's no way we're getting this homework done because
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: they're asleep or they have no energy, or you know,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: whatever it is. They're totally resistant to the idea. And
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: so one big part of this book is emphasizing the
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: collaboration that's needed between parents and teachers. I think that
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: we get stuck sometimes on this idea of if it's
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: not happening in both settings, it's not a real problem,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: and that we really need to do away with that mindset,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: because yes, if it's happening in both settings, it's a
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: bigger problem. That means that the child can't hold it
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: in at all. But if it's not happening in both settings,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: it just means that a child has the energy to
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: hold it in some somewhat, whether that's because at the
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: time period of the day like morning or school day,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: or maybe it happens that they can hold it together
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: because they slept well that night. But then there's some
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: days that it's they had a hard day and we
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: can track it back to them not feeling well or
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: not sleeping well. If a child is struggling anywhere, it's
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: everybody's problem.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I feel like, thank you for saying that.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: And that's me talking as a school psychologist, a parent,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: a private practice psychologist. You know, the solutions may not
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: come from everywhere. You know, we may not be able.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: You know, I can't jump in the school and help
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: a kid. A teacher shouldn't have to come to a
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: child's home. But if we can collaborate. The example I
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: would give you is like with homework. If we could
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: collaborate and say, you know, this child's working really well
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: during the school day, but then they completely run out
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: of steam and have no stam enough for homework and
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: the parent is just battling them with homework. If we
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: talk to the teacher about that, and a teacher didn't
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: realize that this was so stressful, the teacher can help
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: solve this problem by helping the parent know what the
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: child has mastered, what the child can do independently at school,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: and what they can't do independently, and really figure out
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: what's necessary to do at home. Is it necessary to
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: actually have them practice this at home or does the
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: teacher feel like they've got it, we don't need to
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: do extra practice, which is what homework is. It's extra practice.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And if we bring the teacher into that loop and
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: have I mean, the teachers that I talk to, they
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: don't want children struggling, they don't want children hating their class,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: they don't want children hating work. But we have to
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: help them understand and what it looks like at the
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: kitchen table at you know, four or five or seven,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: whatever time it is, we're trying to help our child
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: do homework. So we can make an informed decision together.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that collaborative piece is so key, because we can't,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: like at home, as parents, we can't solve everything that's
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: going on in the school. We're not there, and vice versa.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I talked to so many parents who have that similar
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: problem that you were just describing earlier about their finite
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: school and then they fall apart the second thing at
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: home and school often feels like, well, that's not our problem,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Like that's a home problem. And I've heard so many
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: like I've seen a lot of social media posts about this,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: like if a kid has challenging behavior at school, it's
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: a parenting problem. You know. How do we have these conversations, Yeah,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: between parents and educators to get on the same page
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: with that.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean, at its simplest form, it can
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: be a parent problem. The only time I would say
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: that would be true. Maybe not the only time, but
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: one example would be a child that really needs a
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: lot of structure and does really well with structure. Classrooms
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: do tend to be pretty structured. If the parenting style
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: is very loose and unstructured and it feels chaotic at home,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: and that child can't thrive in that environment. Or can't
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: get going or can't you know? That could possibly be,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: but still again that's not something that the parent may
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: be able to solve on their own. Using that example,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: if parents and teachers can talk to each other, my
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: favorite thing for parents to say is this is what
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: this looks like in my kitchen, and I want teachers
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: to say this is what it looks like in my classroom,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: and then just everybody say huh, why is it so different?
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Instead of like what are you doing wrong? And what
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: are you doing right? And all of that back and forth.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: They are two different settings, and we need to problem
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: solve it, to figure out why is one of them
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: working and why is one of them not working? And
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: usually it comes down to differences in time of day,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: differences in the system around them or the structure, and
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: then sometimes differences in people. They are absolutely kids that
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: will not work for their parents but will work for
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: a teacher. That is totally true. I think anybody who
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: has like a kid who's twelve and older, they do
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: not care about us anymore. And that's what we're usually thinking.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Can I get a tutor to work with my child
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: who's not me? But we need to really land in
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: this place of this is what it looks like here,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: This is what it looks like here. Okay, why let's
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: we always say stay curious. Everyone's got to like drop
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: their defensiveness at the door, everyone, parents and teachers included,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: because we have to think about imagining what that other
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: setting is like. So I'll say to a teacher, let's
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: say we have a strategy that is working at school
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: but not at home, like a self care thing like
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: putting on shoes. So I might say, as a parent,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: I might you know, my kid never puts their shoes on,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: always falls on the floor and wants me to put
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: their shoes on. Let's say that's the example. So you
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: could go to your teacher and say, does my kid
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: ever put their shoes on by themselves? Like have you
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: ever seen this happen? And your teacher may say all
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: the time, they can totally do that skill. And then
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: we have information to know that it's not a skill issue,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: but it's something about not that it's our fault. It
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: could be part of the dynamic that it's a relational thing,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: but it also could be siblings are in the mix.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: It's a rush. They can't find their shoes at home
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: and they can find them in the classroom. Like, there
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: are all these different variables that we have to sift through,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: and the parent child or the teacher child relationship is
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: only one variable, and we put a lot of emphasis
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: on that one, like will you do it for her
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: and you don't do it for me? For instance? Yeah,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: But there's so many other reasons that kids are successful
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: or not successful for certain skills in different environments.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: I think capacity is at play often too. Oh my gosh,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: if they spend all of their capacity at school, they
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: have none left at home.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. In the book, I call it stamina, and it's
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: like they just don't have, Yeah, the emotional or the
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: emotional stamina or capacity to problem solve. And if if
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: a skill is not automated, Like whenever I think about
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: a skill being automated, I think about when we're sick,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Like what can you do or what can your child
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: do when they're sick? Can they still get themselves dressed
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: and get in the car to go to the doctor.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: That means that your child getting dressed is an automated skill.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: They can do it even if they don't feel good. Right,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: But there are plenty of kids who getting dressed. They
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: have to pay attention they like it's it's an emerging skill,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: it's not quite mastered or automated. So that's the kid
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: that is going to be like rolling around and laying
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: there when they're sick and not able to get themselves dressed.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: The same thing happens with academic skills. Like I can
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: do this math work when I'm rested in the morning
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: and someone is there to help me. I cannot do
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: it at four o'clock and I want to go play
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: outside and I'm tired of paying attention to this, you know,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, so we have to think about that capacity.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm for sure. What else do you want to
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: share with parents before we close? I know there's so
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: much we haven't gotten to, anything that stands out.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: It was important to me that this book was not
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: just about school, because, as you know, we've talked about before,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: we learn everywhere, Our kids learn everywhere, and I've worked
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: with kids that really struggle to be in a group
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: learning environment, which is what school is. And so I
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: want parents to feel encouraged that there is learning that
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: happens beyond a classroom, beyond the school building. And that's
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: what the last third of this book is about, is
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: learning through interests, learning about self care, finding those circles
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: of I call them allies, those circles of people where
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: our kids feel like they belong, whether that's through an
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: interest or through a community group, wherever that's going to be.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Because there are so many dynamics to learning that have
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with reading, writing in math, that, like
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I said, is that's that's the final thing that happens.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: And you know, the subtitle of this book is a
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: new Approach to your child's success in the classroom and beyond.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: And that word success is so loaded, especially as I
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: have my oldest just recently graduated from high school and
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: we all put these like just we just put all
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: our eggs in the success basket of like, well they
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: you know, we all want to get them graduation right,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: and it is such a big deal. But the timing
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: of that, how that happens, there's so many ways to
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: do it, and I just want to encourage parents to really,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: you know, think through what it feels like just the
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: next best thing for your kid if your neurodivergent kid
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: is struggling to learn in a traditional setting, because learning
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: is happening everywhere.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: I love that growth mindset is key. Oh. I think
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: who are always learning gives us permission to make mistakes
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: and be okay with it.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Tell everyone where they can find you online in the book.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I will also link it up in the show notes. Yes,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: but for anybody who is listening, Yeah.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: So you can go to learn with Doctor Emily dot
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: com slash book and it will be there. I also
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: have recorded the audiobook It is My Voice, which is
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: very exciting. So if you're listening to this after August
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: twenty fifth, you can buy it anywhere books are sold,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: and also there's a kindle version and an audiobook version.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Nice. Thank you for being here again, Thanks for having
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: me sharing more of your wisdom. We always learn from
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: you and we're able to help our kids grow that way,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: and I just appreciate you so much.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Well, thanks for having me, Penny.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I'll see everybody next time. Take good care, visit beautifully
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: hyphencomplex dot com for more resources, coaching and parent training,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: and help another kid by sharing this with someone who
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: could benefit from listening.