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Stay Focused on the Music Life You Actually Want · Do Music Differently

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Reveal the rules. Rewrite your future on your own terms.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: The conversation starts now. Welcome to Do Music Differently with
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Hyda Lynn on W4WN Radio. Hey everybody, it's Hyda Lynn
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and I am here for another episode of Do Music Differently.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: And this week we are looking at the core pillar
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: rule of Ah, that there is only one clear path
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: to be successful in the music industry. And, you know,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: last week we were focused on what that clear path
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: kind of looked like for the orchestra world. This time
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: we're looking a little bit more in fans, particularly with
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: our guest, Tom Pyle, who is the owner of Running
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Dog Music. music. And a lot of people might be
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: tempted to believe that there's one way to make it
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: because they've seen other people, lots of other people make it.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: And you might even have the opportunity one day to
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: work with someone that you're like, wow, like this is success.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: They have totally made it, but it doesn't always work
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: that way when you follow the the predictable path. Just
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: because it's predictable does not mean that predicts that you're
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: going to be happy in that situation. So we're going
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: to bring Tom on right now. Come on over here, Tom. Hey,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: how's it going?
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Very well. Good to be with you. Thanks for inviting me.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Thanks for the invitation.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being here. Now, before we get started
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: talking about this rule change, Tell everybody a little bit
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: more about yourself. Okay.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm a one-man operation. When I record and release music,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: it's generally me playing every instrument, recording every instrument, mixing.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I do everything except the mastering myself. I will occasionally
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: bring in a guest or a friend or I'll work
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: on somebody else's material. But generally, I'm a one-man show.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: And it's been that way for a long time. I
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: have done a lot of performing solo. I've been in
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: lots of groups and done that as well. A long
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: background in the theater. An even longer background in the
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: world of dance. When I lived in New York City,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: I think I worked in every single major dance studio
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: that exists in the city. That was a great way
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: to make a living. But I was playing by myself
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: all the time. That's the way it works in a
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: dance studio. It's generally just one musician. So I'm used
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: to the concept of making all the music myself. And
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I've always liked it that way. Not that I don't
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: enjoy playing with other people. I do. But this is
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: a great situation for me at this point in time
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: to be able to do it all myself and to
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: have the capacity to do it all myself. So I'm
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: good with that.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: All right. And I am loving... talking to you from
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: this perspective because a lot of people are trying to
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: do a lot of the stuff themselves so it's going
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: to be an interesting conversation today okay so let's go
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: let's go back um how did you like get started
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: in the music industry where where did you start.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Started in my friend's basement.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: That's a good place to start.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: That's where i started that's where most of us started
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: right Get some instruments, start hacking around in the basement and,
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: you know, you find something that sounds good and go
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: with it. I did. I had the good fortune of
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: having excellent music teachers when I was young. My parents
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: gave me piano lessons. My mother played music. So she
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: was very interested in making sure that her children had
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: access to music. All of us had music lessons. I
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: have four siblings. But the first music teacher I ever had,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: I credit her with setting me on the path, really,
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: because Mrs. Champeau, French name, unusual in my northern North Dakota,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Scandinavian environment to find somebody with a French name.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Mrs.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Champeau, every time we had a lesson, she lived in
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: the neighborhood so I could walk to her house. And
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: in those days, you could just walk on the streets safely.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Every day, rather than starting with any kind of playing
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: or exercises, we would listen. And she would play music
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: from around the world. She would play Bert Camford from
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: South Africa. She would play Horst, what's his name, from Germany.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: She played all kinds of stuff. Roger Miller, she played
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: for me. You name it, she played it. All kinds
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: of music. Lots of classical music in there as well.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: I learned Mozart, learned Appreciation for Bach and all that
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: stuff in those days. She set me on the path.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: But I had several other good music teachers after that
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: that really made me feel like I get so much
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: back from this. I'm just going to keep doing it
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: because I get so much back. That's what set me
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: on the path was that first teacher. And it's been
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: one way ever since.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: That is so awesome. I love the listening session idea
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of the lesson.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Her husband was a travel agent. So they went all over.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: They were like worldly in a place where it Nobody
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: had been anywhere. And they drove a Mercedes in the 60s.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Nobody had a Mercedes. I didn't know. We're talking way
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: before the 70s and 80s. So, yeah, she was something else.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: So at what point then did you decide that you
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: were really going to pursue something with this? Or were
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: you still working like another job? Like, how did how
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: did this all work out?
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: So we're playing with friends in the basement and, you know,
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: hanging out and trying to make, you know, we're trying
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: to sound like the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: everybody else, you know. And we got a gig playing
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: at the school dance in the junior high school. And
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: we were terrible, of course, but it was fun. And
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: it was like, whoa, this is cool. I like doing this.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: And so throughout that, Starting at that age, 13, 14
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: years old, I was playing out. I played in bars
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: from when I was 14. And I started making music,
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: making money from making music. And that was like, whoa,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: there's money in this too? And so throughout high school,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: that's it. I was every weekend on the road playing
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: at some homecoming dance or a frat party or who
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: knows what. But gaining experience and learning how it works
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: out there in the real world, that was a really
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: formative time.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: So at that point in your life, what were you
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: thinking you were going to do with your life? What
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: was your main goal? I'm going to be a rock star.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be a rock star. Of course, I'm
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: going to be a rock star. Everybody, let's talk about
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: the path. The one way that you think everybody's going
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: to make it is you become a rock star and
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: you get a great song and everybody hears it on
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: the radio and that's it. You're done.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you. You miss it, but wait, you miss the
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: getting signed by a label part. Oh, that's right.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah. You have to get signed by a
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: label too.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. That's got to happen in there. And then
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: you live happily ever after, right? Right.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Happily ever after.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Okay. So what, how did that work out for you?
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: It worked out great through high school. You know, I was, I,
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: you know, amongst my high school peers, I was a
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: rock star. No. Yeah.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: They got a band there and let's go see their
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: band this weekend. You know, it was cool and no
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: doubt about it. It was fun. Um, I, because I
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: was conflicted about whether I wanted to pursue music academically, uh,
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: I didn't go down that path. I mean, I played
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: in band in the high school and all that stuff, but, uh,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: I never really considered it an academic path. It was
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: just fun. It was, I don't know, it was doing
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: it was the, was the learning and, But I was
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: good at other things as well. And I had a scholarship.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: I had several scholarships to go study English. And I
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: could have gone to a bunch of different schools. I
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: loved writing. I still love writing. Love words. But I
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: chose not to. And I chose to enroll in a
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: school in my hometown where my dad happened to know
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: the chairman of the English department. And they put me
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: as a freshman into this senior honors seminar, which was
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: very interesting. But by Six months in, I was bored
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: out of my skull and thinking, what am I going
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: to do? I knew this was not going to work,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: and I don't want to be a professor. I don't
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: want to be a teacher. I loved my teachers, but
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be one.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: So I was looking for a way out, and I
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: found it. We'll get into that next if you want to.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Tell me what the way out was for you.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Wait, before then, how long did it take?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Take you to find it? How long were you just
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: stuck there? Like, ah, I'm stuck and I don't like it.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Did you stay there long or did you move pretty quickly?
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: I moved pretty quickly by January of my freshman year.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I was, I dropped out. I was out of college.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: I didn't make it past that point.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Okay. And then, then how did you find that way?
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: So I'm in the English department and I'm looking at
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: the bulletin board and looking for stuff and announcements and things.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: And I see this colorful flyer that says, Hey, we
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: are looking for actors and musicians. And I read it
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: and I said, Oh, what is this? It's a program
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: based out of arena stage, which is the big regional
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: theater in Washington, DC, uh, that takes music and dance
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: and theater out to the community to, um, to, we
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: went to halfway houses, we went to safe houses, we
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: went to drug rehabilitation centers, we went to prisons. We
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: went to lots of schools and performed. By the way,
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: I got the job. I didn't tell you that part.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: I did get the job in Washington, D.C. and moved there.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: And that was my education. So I did that for
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: three years. That was an education. Musically, in many ways,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: which we'll get into if you want to.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would like to get into that because I also,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: from personal job experiences along the way, got to have
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: these outreach experiences with homeless shelters and jails and places
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: that I never imagined hanging out for a couple hours
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: and being able to, well, share my skills of performance
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: and public speaking. So what about you? What did you
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: learn from those?
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Well, there's so much joy in to be able to
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: bring something into those environments where they don't get that
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: kind of input. It's always welcomed and celebrated. And, you know,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: you're automatically loved just for bringing something that, that we
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: don't get, they don't get to see all the time.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: So the feedback was wonderful. The music part of it was, I,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: it was six actors and me, one musician. And I
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: was considered an actor too, because I had to get
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: up sometimes and be a part of the action, whatever
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: was going on. It was completely, completely improvisational. We studied
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: improvisational games in theater and learned how to make up
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: plays from a single input or from an action or
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: from a sculpture or from an exercise we did with
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: the kids or whoever was there with us. And we
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: would start a play. And my job as the musician
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: was to I had to memorize about 300 songs and
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: be able to play them in any key, in any tempo,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: in any kind of arrangement at any time, depending on
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: what's going on with the scene. So you might sing,
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know, this little light of mine in a
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: really fast up-tempo way for some playful scene, but then
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: it might come up in another day, in another context,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: and it'd be This little light of mine. And so
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: you have to imagine on the spot. So it was
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: a fire for the imagination, that job. You just had
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: to keep thinking on your feet all the time. And
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: it built my skills as an improviser in a way
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: that I can't imagine having done it any other way.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, people learn jazz and they improvise and that's
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: certainly a valid path. But from having to come up
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: with something on the spot and deliver... you know, immediately
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: that was a real challenge and that was a lot
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: of fun and it was a great way of learning.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the improvising part of it because,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: you know, this is going back to another rule that
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: I kind of was telling myself all of my life.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: I'm not good at improvising, but what I've learned as
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: I've gotten older is it's not something like you're born
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: with or you're not, maybe you're kind of better at
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: it naturally, but it's another skill. where the more you
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: get a chance to practice it, the better you get
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: at it. Yes. So I love that part of your
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: story because that just shows another example to me that, yes,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: most certainly, small little bits of practicing it consistently is
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: going to make it easy. So that's how you learned
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: all those songs and were able to do all of
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: that was just with a small consistency.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: It was not always successful. There were plenty of times
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: when it just fell flat and that, well, that didn't work,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: you know, but it doesn't matter. You know, in that context,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter. There's no, there's no scale to it.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: There's no consequences. So it was just, it was just fun.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it added to the humor of the situation
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: of whatever was going on when it didn't quite work
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: out the way that it was supposed to.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: But there was pathos sometimes too. There was one time
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: when I was, I was, Drawn into the action of the,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: what was going on. And I was playing a role.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I was King Frank and I had my guitar around
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: my neck and I'm doing whatever I was doing. And
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: my strap broke and the guitar fell on the ground
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: and the neck popped off. And what do you do?
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: You know, you're, you're in the middle of a scene. Well,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: fortunately the other actors saved my ass because I was paralyzed,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: but they took up the slack and the scene kept
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: going and that's a broken guitar. And it's part of
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: the story, you know?
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Right. Nice. Very nice. All right. So after all of
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: the improv-ing and stuff, what happened next?
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Well, that's just the beginning of the improv-ing. That got
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: me on the path of really enjoying improvisation. And at
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: that time, do you remember the band Oregon?
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: No.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: I'm getting back to, this is early 70s. At that
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: time in Washington, there were a couple of bands like that.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: And the way that they functioned was four or five
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: of them would get together in the club. No agenda,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: no music, no set list. They'd just play. And whatever
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: came out, came out. And sometimes it would turn into
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: a song and sometimes it was just an endless improvisation.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: And I loved it because you got to be present
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: for that. You can't be drawn on something that happened
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: yesterday or trying to force your way in a situation
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: like that. You have to allow things to happen to
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: you and then respond to them. It's the yes and.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: concept of improvisation right you take what comes in and
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: you add to it you don't diminish it you add
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: to it um so we don't i've actually started that
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: even in the junior high days where we just sit
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: down and jam you know we'd play we'd whatever and
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: we'd make stuff up and how do you write songs
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: you write songs by making stuff up you've got to
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: be able to improvise to write a song um yeah
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: So to expand on the improvisational part after the theater
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: experience in Washington, I stayed in Washington for a few years.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I played with some touring bands there. Where I grew up,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: there were no black people. I didn't even see a
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: black person until I was 16 years old.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Same here.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I moved to Washington, D.C., 80% black, right? And so
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: I kind of had to learn about black people. They
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: were in the group I was in and they were
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: in the community I was in. And the music was everywhere.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Go-go was everywhere. And so I got into a go-go
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: band and I got into a rhythm and blues band
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: and played both of them and learned tremendously from both
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: of them. And the time came that I needed to
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: get another job. So I was looking for music jobs
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: and I found a job in Chicago. And I moved
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: to Chicago and took up a job with the Chicago
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Free Street Theater, another touring theater ensemble. I was the
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: music director there. We toured all over the country. We
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: brought a big, you know what a showmobile is? It's
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: a truck that folds out into a stage.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's what they call those. I've seen those before.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you've probably seen one, right? So we had a showmobile.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: We had two 32-foot trucks full of all of our
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: gear and about 25 people in the cast and crew.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: And we would turn up at a location and set
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: up our showmobile and start a show and people would
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: just come. That was a blast. That theater group lost
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: its funding after two years, but the band stayed together
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: because we were smoking. We were smoking. And we had
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: a successful touring run. We toured all over the country.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: We were going to get signed. We had an offer.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: And sad story, the sax player was Muslim. And at
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: a certain point, he said, I can't do this anymore.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: I can't do this. I can't be with the smoking
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: and the cursing and the, you know, I can't live
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: in this lifestyle anymore. And so he had to quit.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And being that he was a huge creative influence, it
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: just took the wind out of our sails and we
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: had to stop at that point. And so in looking
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: for other work, I discovered that there were musicians who
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: were playing in dance studios. And I said, okay, I
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: could probably do that. And I started working at Columbia
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: College as a, accompanist in the dance department there and
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: talk about improvisation you have to improvise for two hours
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: straight in a dance class non-stop and so you better
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: get good at and so you have to you know
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: you're watching the instructor give out this is what we're
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: going to work on and this is the and you
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: know one and two and three and and then they'd
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: get ready to start the exercise and it's a One
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: and two and, and you just got to go and
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: you got to be in time. You got to be,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: have the right mood, the right, you have to have
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: to have it all in place by the time they
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: say go. And so it's a think fast situation. I
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: got good at it and I was in demand all
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: over New York studios and worked a lot. And that
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: was a good career for about 15 years. Wow. Yeah.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: We'll get to the, there's a story that you want
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: to get to, right? The Bon Jovi story, right?
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Do you want to get to that story?
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: It probably fits in here if that's okay.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Okay. That sounds like a perfect story.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: So during this period, this is, I've already given away
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: my age. I'm definitely up there, but this is early eighties.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: And I am playing with two bands. In addition, I'm
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: working all day in the dance studios and then playing
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: with bands at night. And both of them were really good.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: And I had spent a lot of time with both
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: of these bands playing. getting him ready to, we were,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: both bands were looking for a recording contract, looking to tour.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: One of them was with this kid named Johnny Bon Jovi,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: who was a real sweetheart. Uh, he was seven, eight
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: years younger than me, but I think he was 17
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: at that time when I first met him. And, uh,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: his cousin, cousin or uncle, his cousin or uncle owned
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: at that time, um, one of the biggest recording studios
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: in Manhattan. And so when there was nothing going on
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: in the studio, we were in there putting together demo
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: after demo after demo. And these are the demos that
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: eventually got him his record contract. Uh, I was having
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: fun working in the studio with him. I was learning
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: a lot about the studio, which I hadn't had a
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: whole lot of exposure to before that. The other band
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: was also in the studio at the same time. Um,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: So it came to the point when it just got
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: to be too much. And I said, I can't play
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: with both these bands anymore. What am I going to do?
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: What am I going to do? I love Johnny. He's
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: a sweetheart. He's a smart kid. He's going places. I
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: know he's going places because he's focused. He knows what
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: he wants. And he's going straight towards no drugs, no
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: fooling around. That band was clean.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: But.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: There was one day in rehearsal when I was trying
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: to come up with a part on some new song
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: we were working on. And he said, Tom, Tom, Tom,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: tone it down. Pull it back. This is music for 12-year-olds.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: And I said, OK, OK, I get it. You know,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: we're trying to make pop music, the kind that is
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: easily digestible. But I said, fuck that. That's not my thing.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: I want to make music that makes people think, that
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: makes them expand their minds, that makes them go beyond
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: where they're already at. not giving them the pablum that
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: they already have. It sounds a little over the top maybe,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: but my parting with John Bon Jovi was great. It
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: was sweet, but it was time to go. Obviously, it
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: was maybe not the best career choice because clearly he
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: went on to major success. As you may know, he
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: is still a wonderful person. Do you know about his.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Well, I've never got to meet him before, but if
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: you want to invite him onto my podcast, I would
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: love that.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: So he runs soup kitchens all over New Jersey. You
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: know that, right? He has a soup kitchen restaurant that
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: people can come in. If you can pay, pay. If
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: you can't, it's free.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Yeah. That's awesome.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: He's been doing that for a long time. He's given
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: so much back to his community and continues to do that.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: He's a bona fide good citizen.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Well, When we come back, I am going to be
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: talking to you more about what I think is so
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: interesting about that little story and what it has to
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: do with our rule change. We're going to find a
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: better way to do music differently. Okay. You are listening
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: to Do Music Differently on W4WN Radio. Is your music
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: career feeling unsustainable? Join Heidsel and Coaching and Music Legacy
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: International for the Root Cause Challenge and resolve your challenges
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: from the roots. Every second Tuesday at 7 p.m. Eastern.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Register at heidselandcoaching.com slash rcc-events. You're listening to Do Music
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Differently on W4WN Radio. So I picture you at this
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: crossroads moment and I am impressed that you chose, I mean,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: you saw where Jon Bon Jovi was going.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: But you also had the presence of mind to say,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: if I keep going in that direction, then I'm going
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: to have to write music that doesn't fulfill me as much.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: And I, can't do what i want to do as
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: much and so you chose that over i guess fame
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: and fortune you you could say i.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Think so yeah i mean i thought the other band
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: was going to be famous too i really did okay
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: the other the other band was really really good and
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: we we could have had a contract we toured and
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: did we were very successful but never got a contract
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: and and um about two years that band lasted before
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: we just said, man, we can't do this anymore. But yes,
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: it was, I wanted to do music that was challenging,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: that challenged the audience, that, you know, I didn't want
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: to slip into the comfortable role of, you know, nice
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: clothes and nice hair and nice instruments and stage lights
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: and everybody takes care of everything for you. I probably
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: would have melted into some sort of hollow shell of
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: myself at that point. I don't think I would have
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: survived in that environment. And I was, I did make
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: the right decision for me.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Okay. So let's talk more about that because now more
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: time has passed and we're looking back, you know, caught
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: in this moment in history, looking, some people might be like, Oh,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: how unfortunate he made the wrong choice. But now you
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: looking back from where you are now, What things have
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: happened since then that has made your life fulfilling with
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: what you've done with music?
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Wow, so much. I worked at Merce Cunningham's studio for
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: many years. Do you know who Merce Cunningham is or was?
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: No.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Probably one of the most influential choreographers of the 20th century.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: In his studio, people came from around the world to
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: come to his studio. And I met John Cage there.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: I played John Cage's piano all the time. I met
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: all the musicians that toured with him and talk about
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: challenging music. Those boys, they were way out there. But
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: that environment helped me realize there are multiple paths to
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: success in music. What success meant to me was what
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: made me happy, what made me feel challenged, made me
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: feel like I'm going someplace, like I'm growing, like I'm expanding.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: That's what I was looking for. And that's what the
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: other band provided, where John was like, let's close it
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: in a little bit, you know, and that didn't work
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: for me. What was your question? What have I learned
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: since then?
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: No, no, well, not just learned, but what have you
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: done since then? What direction has music taken you since
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: you took that crossroad?
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: So when I was, I got married at about 35.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: And my wife was a painter, an excellent painter. And
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: she was home painting all the time. And I'm out
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: practicing and playing classes and touring and off on the
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: road and home again and off on the road and
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: home again. After a few years, you know, we got
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons that we got together is we
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: knew we wanted children. Both of us wanted children. And
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: I'm headed for 40. She's headed for 36 years old.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: It's now or never. So we had kids. And she said, Tom,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: You can go on the road again, but don't come back.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: So it was like, yeah, you got to change. You
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: got to change your approach here. Um, because you know,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: I would go for two weeks at a time and
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: I couldn't leave her with twins at, you know, babies at, uh, so, um,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: I made an immediate change and I took a straight
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: job working for, um, working for a record company, working
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: for phonogram records at the time. Um, I was miserable, but, uh,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Got through it. The kids made all the difference. When
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: they came around, that made all the difference. That made
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: me feel like, oh yeah, that was the right decision.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: You want to be here for them as much as possible.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: You want to play music with them, don't you? Yes,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I do. And so that changed everything for me. So
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: I worked in the corporate world for the next 20 years,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: making music all the time. I've always had a music studio,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: always had a place to keep making music. I started
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: releasing music in the early 2000s and have not stopped
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: since then. So still at it.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Well, we were talking about this before the interview, and
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: I said something like, it sounds like you've had a
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: very long music career. And you're like, career? Such a
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: weird word for this.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: It's not over yet. It's not over yet. Still working
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: at it.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: But this is one of the things that I really
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: want to bring to light with do music differently is
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: that it doesn't always look like Don Bon Jovi. Yeah.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it looks like having a family. And sometimes it
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: looks like you're working another job while you're still doing music.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: But things continue to happen. You continue to create, you
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: continue to grow with the music. And as long as
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: you're able to do the things that you enjoy, How
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: do you do that? How do you balance your time?
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, looking back, I wouldn't trade anything
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: for the experience of sitting at the piano and improvising
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: with my kids, you know, with one of them pounding
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: way over here and me pounding. I wouldn't trade that
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: for anything. That's the best music we ever made. But so,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: like I said, I just kept doing it all the time.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: It's like an uncontrollable impulse. It's it's it's here's how
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I put it. When others have asked similar questions and it's,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: It's the best thing I know how to do. I'm
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: going to do the best thing I know how to do.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: What else? You know, I'm going to contribute something else
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: to society that is not my best. Why would I
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: do that? Why would I do that?
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: So it's just sort of a necessary thing that I
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: have to do at this point in time. You know,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I start. almost every day when I sit down to
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: work improvising. I'm improvising something here, you know, and sometimes
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: it ends up in a piece of music and sometimes
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: it's forgotten immediately. But that sense of making something out
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: of nothing, that's always a thrill. To me, see it
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: arise out of nothing. Like, two chords. I got two chords.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: What am I going to do? Whoa!
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Some of the greatest songs are only two chords. Or
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: only one. Only one.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Sometimes only one. Yes.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: So... Now let's get to that learning question. You know,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: if looking back at everything that you've accomplished in your
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: life so far, if you were going to talk to
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: a young artist who's just getting started with their music career,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: what's something that you would want them to know?
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Find out what you love. Find out what you love
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: and focus on that. And that's going to lead you
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: where you need to go.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, I like it. And I've got something to add
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: to that that I've thought of from something you said earlier.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: You said, well, I was out being a rock star.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Right? And so when I was younger, I was out
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: being a rock star too.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: But I didn't give myself credit for that because I
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: was doing all of the other things. It was like,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: because I'm not 100% just doing the music stuff, that
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: means that I haven't made it there yet.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: And it took... a mentor to say to me, Hey,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at your Facebook page. I see you have
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: shows coming up. You're writing music. Isn't that what a
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: rockstar does?
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: And I was like, well, now that you mention it, yeah,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe you need to open up, open up your definition
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: of rockstar, right?
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Right. Exactly. So what is your definition of success? What
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: is your definition of rock star? What is your definition
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: of made it? Does that include money? Does that include
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: just time playing music? What does that include for everyone
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: out there? And do you feel, Tom, like you had
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: a clear idea of what it was that you wanted
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: through your life? Or did you figure some of it
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: out as you were going?
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the nature of improvisation. You always figure it
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: out as you're going. And my life is a continuing improvisation. Um,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: there's no destination out there. I'm living now in the present.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: And if you take care of the present, the future
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: usually takes care of itself. So I would go back.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Give me the question again, please.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Um, so, Oh, you threw me for a loop with the,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: ask me the question again, please.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that. No, you're okay. Um,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: let me see.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Let me rewind. Um, you said something brilliant with the
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: improvising and I'm always improvising. And that's like, what, what,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: what's for me, that was actually a really good response.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: So you might've already answered my question. Cause I was like, yes,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: that is good.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I think your question went more to like what, what
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: keeps you in it. And it's, um, it's not only
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: the sense that, I need to do it because it's,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: it's the only thing that I can do to the
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: best of my abilities. I need to exercise that muscle. Um,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: but also what I get back from it, the satisfaction
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: of looking back at a huge catalog saying, wow, I
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: did all that.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Um, but, uh, we haven't really started talking about money yet.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: You mentioned it just a moment ago. Money's absolutely important.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: You Unfortunately, we can't live without it. And there have
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: been times in my life when I have scraped, but
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think if you are focused on
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: doing the thing that you care about the most and
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: trying to give people, give other people the thing that
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: you care about, then you're going to be okay. You know,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: that life will take care of you. Now that sounds
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: kind of Pollyanna-ish, I realize, but It's been my experience.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: I'm speaking from my experience there. I didn't always, I
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: don't know what's coming next. I don't plan for it.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not stupid. I do have, you know,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: plans and savings accounts and that sort of stuff, but
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: it's not what drives me. What drives me is, wow,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: I made something.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I made something.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Just like today we're making a podcast video. Isn't that funny?
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Just like I was reminding my daughter just last week, um,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I have this thing hanging in my bathroom that's like
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: a pipe cleaner with an orange ball hanging off the
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: end of it. And when she was three, it was
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: like the first thing she ever brought me and said,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: I made this for you, dad. And it was a whole,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: it was like a little mini mobile at that time.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Everything else has fallen off except the orange ball. But
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: that thrill of saying, I made this, that's what she
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: was experiencing. And that's what I'm talking about, that you
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: make something that, you can give to somebody else. That's
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: a thrill.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would totally agree with that. All right. Well,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: I just want to wrap this rule up. So to me,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: it seems very clear that it's not all about following
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: those clearly defined paths to success in the music industry
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: and that it makes sense to slow down, enjoy what's
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: going on in the present moment and and figure out
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: what kind of things you like to do, what kind
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: of things you want to do. And eventually more experiences
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: come your way so that you can discover which one
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: of those things really bring you joy and success.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Find your heart and live from there. You know,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: going back to Jon Bon Jovi at 17 years old,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: he knew where his heart was. He was totally in
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: it and God bless him. He's lived that way ever since.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: And so, If you can find that, you're going to
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: be good. Just find the thing that moves you, that
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: makes you go. That's what you want.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: I love it. Love it. Yes. And stay focused on that.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: It's more about that than it is about how you're
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: going to get there.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to give you time to be able
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: to promote what you have going on because you've got
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: some very exciting stuff happening right now.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got a new library album that's out on
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Sony APM through Empath. Empath is a great label in
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: case you have never heard of them. It's a woman-owned
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: business out of California. They promote women, but they don't
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: exclude men, obviously. And their catalog is quite amazing. And
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: they keep putting out fresh, wonderful tracks all the time.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: So I'm doing work for them. I've also got an
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: album of my own coming out a week from tomorrow.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: It's called Voices of the Insentient. I've always been... I've
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: been a student of Buddhism all my life. I'm not
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: a Buddhist. I don't practice Buddhism, but I do study
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: the precepts, and I know them, and I try to
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: live my life by them. And one of the... One
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: of the teachers that I've been drawn to over the
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: years wrote a book called Teachings of the Incentient, a
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: little tiny book that talks about how you need to
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: learn to listen to the trees, listen to the river,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: listen to the mountains, listen to the stones. And so
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: I took that concept to heart and tried to make
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: a whole album of music, giving the trees and the
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: stones and the rocks a chance to sing.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, what a cool idea. I am definitely going to
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: be checking that out, Tom.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, good, good, good, good.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Where can people find you? Because they won't all be
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: seeing the scrolling at the bottom of the screen.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Runningdogmusic.com. That's my website. And all my socials are linked
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: from there. And I'm on all the streaming services, Spotify, Apple,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: wherever you want, you'll find me as Running Dog Music.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: All right, excellent.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Can I, do I have a moment to explain that concept?
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: We do.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: People say running dog. That's like, that sounds terrible. That's
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: people think of like, that's a bad person, you know,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: like a, well, it has a double meaning for me.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: It's Mao Zedong used that term to deride Western civilization
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: because they're always chasing the money, chasing the dollar. That's
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: not the way I live. And that's why I want
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: to promote the opposite of that. Also, a running dog
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: is considered in servitude or in somebody else's control. And
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: I'm not that either. I'm my own boss. And thirdly,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I've had a lot of dogs in my life. I
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: love dogs. It's very important to let your dog run
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: freely at some times. You've got to let your dog run.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: My dog's going to go shoot in an archery tournament
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: next weekend. Yeah. She has her own fan club. Whenever
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: I pull up in the car, you got all the,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: all the old guys are like, where's my girl at?
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: And they're not talking about me. They're talking about this one, right? Cute,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: adorable thing. Yeah. Her name is stormy, but when we
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: go to the archery range, she goes by quiver. Oh, okay.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: She seems very demure. She seems very demure as far
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: as I can see.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a very sweet chihuahua. She doesn't bite very
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: many ankles, so she's got that going for her. Yeah, yeah, totally.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: I love that. Every all of those concepts around how
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: you thought of the name, how it has meaning for you.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: And I thought I saw something. Yeah, like I. not
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: on anyone's leash or something like that. I thought I
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: saw somewhere.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I did write that. Yeah. That's, that's the lackey thing.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: You know, nobody's controlling me. I'm, I'm controlling, I'm on
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: my own leash here. Yeah.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I love it. I love it. All right. Well,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: for everybody out there, before we leave, here is something
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: to think about. for yourself, name one music industry success
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: that you're currently chasing. What is that goal for you?
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: And ask, do I really want the life that's attached
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: to this? And if you're thinking about it and you
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: don't think that might be true, what would staying focused
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: on a path that you really wanted, what would that
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: look like instead? We want to know And we want
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: you to be asking yourself, what rule are you ready
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: to rewrite? Thanks, Tom, for joining me today.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: My pleasure.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: This is Heizelin, and you've been listening to Do Music
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Differently on W4WN Radio. Your next breakthrough could begin with
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: one new rule. Scan the QR code or visit heizelincoaching.com
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: slash let's chat and tell me what rule are you
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: ready to rewrite?