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Trusting God in the Waiting · iRefresh Podcast

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Even though we're praying and contending for things, our natural eyes may not see what we thought the answer would be, but still, at the end of the day, because of who I know God is, who He's shown up to me as before, where else am I going to go?
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Welcome to the iRefresh podcast, where every conversation points to the life-changing power of God's living Word.
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Let's pursue God together, one conversation at a time.
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Welcome to another episode of I Refresh.
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I am ecstatic.
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I have my dear friends, Danny and Carrie Kittinger.
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Welcome.
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Thank you.
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We are so glad to be here, aren't we, honey?
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Absolutely.
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Yes, we are.
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And why do we have them here is because we have an amazing new book that Danny's written.
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And from what I understand, it was a five-year project.
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It was a five-year project.
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I'm a slow writer.
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Plus, I'm busy doing other work for my normal job.
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Yeah, you have another job.
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Your other job is?
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I'm the CFO of a rail car leasing company called Trinity Chemical, TCIX Rail, and I've been doing that for 36 years.
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So riding is a hobby.
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It's a side hustle.
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It's a passion.
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What is the overview, the purpose of why you wrote this book?
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Sure.
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So, Cheryl, you were kind enough to have us on a while ago with my first book, What Matters Most.
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And when I started writing a decade ago, I felt the Lord's...
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I was at a retreat.
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I take these annual retreats where I get away and just seek the Lord.
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And I was at such a retreat when I was asking the Lord, is there anything else that you'd have me to do?
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And without question, I didn't hear it audibly, Cheryl, but I felt like I had a call to write.
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And I knew immediately it was to be...
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nonfiction, my heart towards God, the things that I valued immensely.
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I felt like we live in a pretty world that's lost its way in somewhat.
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And there's a lot of voices clamoring for our attention.
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And so I wrote a book called What Matters Most, really directed at my kids.
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Like I dedicated to my two kids and my nephew.
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If guys, if you're confused about what's important, here's some ideas.
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Try these on for size and maybe consider these.
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And one of those chapters was prayer.
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And in the preface to that book, Cheryl, I talked about a prayer group that I was a part of.
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And I believe you were a part of that for a period of time as well.
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Yes.
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I was thinking about that the other day.
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Quite a few years ago, yes.
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So 40 years ago, right out of college.
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Oh, no, he said the 40 years ago.
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And you said quite a few, and then he's given our age.
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I gave it away.
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It's been a bit.
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But anyway, gosh, young adults, we met for seven years.
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And during one of those years, we decided because we all felt inadequate at prayer, we love God and we gave it to Old Roberts University, most of us, and we have dedicated our lives to this invisible, mysterious God that we serve that came as a man.
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But prayer is an interesting thing, isn't it?
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Because we're communing with a God that we can't
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audibly here, maybe some of you can.
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I don't
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I've heard him speak in my heart and like that retreat, I heard him say it right.
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But anyway, prayer is this mysterious world.
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So that group, that prayer group, all those years ago, 40 years ago, we dedicated a year to prayer.
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And I wrote in the introduction that, you know, I don't remember anything we prayed for and I don't remember really any answered prayers, but I all know that we valued that year and we all felt closer to God.
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And to me, that's what prayer is.
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It's this moving in His direction and making yourself available to Him and asking Him questions.
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And we're praying for our kids today on a certain medical thing.
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And so you're just, you're constantly petitioning the Lord.
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So it is a mystery.
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The other thing that I think, Cheryl, the reason I wrote it is because we live in the buckle of the Bible Belt here in Tulsa.
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Right.
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And a lot of our faith leaders, no disrespect to anybody, but I think sometimes we present like we have all the answers.
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Rather, the mysterious thing that's beyond all of our understanding really is this relationship with God.
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And I kind of leaned into the mystery and the wonder a little bit in this book, trying to help those that maybe feel lost or frustrated or confused.
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Maybe a lot of their prayers haven't been answered.
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So that was my heart in writing this book.
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And thus the title, Dead Ends, Detours in a World of Wonders.
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That's so good.
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You know, one of the things I highlighted to you in your book is something I think all of us go through when you look at your prayer life is the scripture says, Why, Lord, do you stand far off?
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Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?
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In Psalms 10.1.
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And I just marked out truly why.
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You know, when you gave comments of, but you have never failed me yet.
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You know, and you started beginning, you know, think about it.
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You know, when is it a time when we are praying for something and we're still on the other side of it, in the back of our mind is, but we still have not seen, like you said, answered prayer.
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Right.
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And I feel like I'm a Jacob wrestling with God on so many different levels.
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You know, for us, you know, when our kids at all the different ages that they're at, right, and now grandparents, is that struggle we have that's legitimate.
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And still have that as a question in our heart, in our prayer life, is like, where are you?
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And yet it says, but you have never failed me yet.
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Speak to that to you, Carrie, as far as how you manage even those thoughts of that kind of a scripture when you're praying and believing for things.
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One of my favorite passages is when Jesus really starts talking about like, I am the bread of life and you have to partake of me and you have to eat of me and drink my blood.
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And people were going, what?
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And they were fleeing, right?
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And so the disciples are there and Jesus is like, are you going to go too?
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And they said, where else are we going to go?
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You have the words of life.
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So I feel that way in prayer sometimes.
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It's like, even though
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we're praying and contending for things and our natural eyes may not see what we thought the answer would be.
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But still, at the end of the day, because of who I know God is, who he's shown up to me as before, where else am I going to go?
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Right.
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And so I'm going to keep praying.
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And because I have I believe that Danny and I could look back over our growing up years and adult years and the positive encounters with God.
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outweigh so much more the questions.
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But the questions are there.
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Right.
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And so I appreciate that Danny's brought that out, that it's not always this like, I had this goose bump, God answered, and everything's been perfect since then.
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It's an ongoing relationship.
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I don't know that they ever will go away necessarily.
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No.
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I think Jesus up to the very end, I think the Emmaus Road story, these two disciples have been with Jesus.
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They saw him crucified.
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They were even in the room when the ladies came back from the tomb because it says they heard the story of he's alive.
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And they said, it's too much.
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This we're done.
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We're going to go home.
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We're going to go back to Emmaus.
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And then and then Jesus shows up.
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You know, I think the disciples being with Jesus, they saw him turn water into wine and then they saw him arrested and crucified.
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And and Jesus kind of all along the way
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It didn't necessarily answer all their questions.
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Right.
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But like Carrie said, he would get to the heart of the matter.
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Who do you say that I am?
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And listen, we've seen answered prayers.
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I mean, our daughter is a cancer survivor.
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And we've had a lot of losses.
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And yet we've seen the faithfulness of God in both the losses and the answered prayers.
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The prayers that haven't been answered the way we've prayed for them to be answered.
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And yet, so it breaks our heart, but we've still seen God's faithfulness in those times.
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And so we've hitched our wagon to God, and we're not letting go in Jesus as the Son of God and His healing power.
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We're there through thick and thin.
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I don't think anything could take us away from that.
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One of the early church fathers back in the third or fourth century said, a comprehended God is no God.
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And I think there is a piece of God that we'll never get our hands around.
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Right.
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Job's suffering, Jesus's crucifixion.
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I mean, we know he had to sacrifice.
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We believe that he sacrificed himself so we could all be his children.
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Right.
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But that brutal
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murder and suffering seems something you would never want David or Daniel to go through and we would never want Luke or Kelly to go through.
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So those are the things that are beyond our finite ability.
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It's a mystery.
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It is a mystery.
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I mean and I think what I really value in watching your lives over long periods of time is even in the hardest of times
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that you know I remember Carrie you've spoken in our gatherings several times and it was really is the where is your anchored?
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Your anchored is you are hooked in faith and trust in God even when
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The life is not the way that we imagined it.
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Right.
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And we can still have the whys, but yet I believe that there's a place where I've read it in your books.
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I've seen it in your lives.
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You are authentic of what you say here is it's what you live out is even though yet I will still trust you, Lord.
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And that's where I think is making people aware in this book of it does highlight, it doesn't ignore.
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You know, that we have highs and lows.
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And yet you continually stay in that place of prayer and an attitude of looking to God through it all.
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Yeah.
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Amen.
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Job is one of my favorite books of the Bible, and I'm not quite sure why.
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But, you know, Job went through it, right?
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He went through the gates of hell, and there is no explanation for the suffering that he had.
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He lost all of his kids.
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lost his business, he was covered with boils, all of his friends turned against him.
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And they thought, as probably, we would think, man, that guy's got problems.
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He can't be following the guy that we serve, or God would never allow that to happen.
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And yet it did.
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And God didn't defend himself.
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He didn't give Job an answer.
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But he just, when I say that, Sheryl, what I wrote there, I was trying to say, God just kind of opened up himself to Job and said, take a peek at who I am.
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And he let Job see.
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all of that majesty.
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And I think that took away all of Job's pain, all of his, all of his concern.
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He was like, Oh, you are the God that I've worshiped and trusted and served and leaned into my whole life.
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It's all true.
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I was rereading the Chronicles of Narnia, you know, speaking of wonder, CS Lewis does a wonderful job there, but there's a scene in the first book when a cabbie, a cab driver in London.
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unexpectedly and inadvertently gets whisked into Narnia and he wakes up in this magical land and he says, glory be, if I'd have known there was a place like this, I'd have lived a different life.
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And I think it's just that idea that...
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It's all true.
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Everything we hope for is true.
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And I'm good.
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That's all I needed to know.
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And I think that's what wonder does is that, because we're going to go through suffering, Cheryl.
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We just are.
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I mean, you've been through it before.
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Well, Jesus even said it, right?
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He said, you will have trouble, but take heart.
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I've overcome the world.
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So it shouldn't, I don't know why it's a surprise to us.
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Not that we need to go seeking after trouble.
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We're not looking for it.
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We don't want it.
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I don't want it.
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But when it comes, I think sometimes our first response is, well, what did I do wrong?
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Right.
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Rather than, Lord, how can I see you in this storm, you know?
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Well, and then we also have other believers who, maybe they're stumbling believers, who begin to accuse, just like we saw in Job.
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Absolutely.
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You know, you have your accusers on the sidelines judging you like, what did you do?
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Yep.
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Because, you know, you don't just get that in case you've earned it.
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You know, you've earned the turmoil.
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And I'm like, wow.
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They've got their scriptures posted on the wall.
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Here's all the scriptures, you know, name it and claim it.
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Which is good to do.
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It's just sometimes if you don't have a reference for suffering, then you're missing the full picture of the Lord because he's in the storm.
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He's in the sun and he's in the storm.
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He's in it all.
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And he hasn't forsaken us in those times.
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I love you bringing up Job, Danny, right in the middle of some of his deepest suffering, that famous line, I know that my Redeemer lives.
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There was something in Job in the middle of the suffering, even though he had questions and he was wondering where God was, there was this glimmer of hope.
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And I think that's what keeps us praying, is we know that our Redeemer lives.
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We have hope that this isn't all there is.
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You mentioned Assam earlier, and that's why I love David so much, because David was a man fraught with sins and made some serious mistakes.
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But God said he's a man after his own heart.
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And I think it's because David kept turning his heart to the Lord in spite of all the circumstances.
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The other thing we find in David's Psalms is that he was so honest.
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You've got the God, why have you forsaken me?
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You've got the God, where are you?
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I'm pouring out my complaint.
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And then you have all the wonderful scriptures.
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The Lord is my shepherd.
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I have no wants.
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I don't need a thing.
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So that's on one page.
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You turn the page and he's like, God, where are you?
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You've abandoned me.
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My enemies are crushing down on me.
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My bones are, I'm dying here.
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I'm walking through the valley of the shadow of death.
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Yeah, but the other parts I really like is when he's like, just smash and destroy them, my enemies.
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I love what he is so passionate about.
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Kill them.
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Destroy them.
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You know, repentance is yours.
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God, get them.
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Yeah.
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I'm like, go, David.
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I'm like, I see your humanness.
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Right.
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You know, like that human factor makes it.
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And I believe that God put that in there to realize he understands that we have all of these emotions.
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And yet it's OK. Just like you said, he still was known to be a friend of God.
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Yes.
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I, I, I, one of the quotes in the very front of my book, I have a U2 quote, uh, blessings, not just for the ones who kneel luckily, uh, which is in their song city, city of blinding lights.
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And I heard Bono on an interview with Eugene Peterson say that, that, uh, he has a hard time with Christian music because it's not honest.
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You know, we sing all these wonderful songs about God's greatness and His provision and all these blessings.
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But, you know, Bono said, we don't talk about the broken marriage.
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We don't talk about the divorce.
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We don't talk about the sickness or the child who passes or the...
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Country music has a lot of those songs, you know, and regular music does.
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Yes, they have.
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But I think that's in churches.
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I think we just need to be a little bit more honest with what the people are experiencing.
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And I wrote about that in that chapter where I was on a Sunday morning looking around and there was a guy.
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in close proximity to me, there was a lady who lost her husband to a heart attack.
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There was a guy whose dad had just died of ALS.
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And then there was Caries in mind and the stories we have of our family members.
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And I thought, in a church of about a thousand people, I'm within five feet of some pretty hellacious loss.
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And yet here we all are worshiping to God.
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And we were singing the song, Lord, if you can tear the walls of Jericho down, you can do it again.
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You know, it's a victorious song, but but like the words of the song go, I thought by now these walls would have fallen.
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Why haven't they fallen?
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I think we encounter that when we're praying for whatever and it hasn't happened, that loved one hasn't turned to Christ or that miracle of healing hasn't come or
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your financial situation hasn't turned around.
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If we can't talk about it and be honest and share about it, then people feel less than they feel like they're missing out.
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Like,
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like the accusers of Job were bringing to him, kind of pointing the finger saying, you're doing all these things wrong.
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And he knew that he was, he knew his heart was right.
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And so he was trying to reconcile their counsel with what he knew of God.
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And that's why when God kind of revealed himself to Job and said, you're all right.
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Let me just remind you of who I am.
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And then, and then he said, you know what, your friends are kind of screwed up.
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Why don't you go pray for them and I'll heal them too.
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You know, that's a good point, though.
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When you bring out about the accusers, you know, one of the things I know that we've heard from backsliders, those that are not going to the church and we call it church hurt, whatever version that is, a lot of people excuse themselves out of the church or they look at hypocrisy.
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Part of it is what you're saying, Danny, is that we're not authentic enough.
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Yeah.
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But I think we can start it, whether it's starting from the pulpit or we can do it ourselves right here, is like, let's speak to those places where we authentically, like, there are issues.
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We do stumble.
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We do fall.
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We do have our ups and downs.
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How do you handle judgment and maybe people misinformed because they see from a bird's view of your lives?
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I had a good friend say to me one time, you're going to be misunderstood.
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And, uh, you know, I can tend to be a people pleaser.
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I want everybody to be happy with me.
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I want there to be joy and peace in our home or, you know, in friendships, whatever that would be.
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But there are times.
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where like, you know, speaking of Job, he was misunderstood.
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And we can argue it away or we can entrust that to the Lord.
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And what I've noticed is when I've allowed myself to just be quiet in the misunderstanding, time will often bring about the truth.
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Or it just dissipates and it just didn't matter anyway.
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But in the moment, I've just had to learn almost to be okay with being misunderstood and allowing just hopefully the Lord in me to be seen in those times and to be the proof even 10 months down the road to go, oh, she's still the same.
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She hasn't turned on me.
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I was judging her, but wow, she really is leaning into her faith, even though it might have looked a little different than I thought.
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I would also add that I don't know if you can fight that, Cheryl, of being misunderstood.
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Like Carrie said, it's just going to happen.
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But it certainly helps to have loved ones, friends that know you and that you're fellowshipping with, that bring encouragement and counsel and know our hearts.
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And so though the crowd may misunderstand or though a pocket may misunderstand or these folks may misunderstand,
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Ultimately, those that you entrust with your heart, if they misunderstand, that's a whole different world.
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And because you have a relationship with them, hopefully you can press in and get that misunderstanding cleared up.
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But when you're being misunderstood by others, hopefully you can pour that out to those dear loved ones, and they can help guide your heart back to a place of sanity, of comfort, and of being right before God.
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Well, and getting back to what you had said, Cheryl, with David and the Psalms, I mean, a lot of those Psalms we can be uncomfortable with, but they're Psalms of lament.
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And so I do think that part of that is that we can trust God with the lament of our heart.
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We can trust Him.
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with the very broken pieces that we don't have to have all the words pretty.
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But I love how David, he always brings it back around, right?
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And so I think talking about just the worship time and when people were going through difficulty, it's good for us to get that lament out.
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But it's also good for us to gather with believers and remind ourselves of who God is in those times of worship, in those times of prayer.
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And so we need both.
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We need the lament process.
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We need people gathering around us, but also people reminding us of who God is and who we are in Him.
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I think it's so good because one of the things that you do highlight in your book, too, Danny, is you talk about even how to let go.
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When we're going through all kinds of various things in our lives, it's that process where we have to release some things.
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we have to release even when we have done something and maybe we need to be corrected and maybe we don't like it.
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Instead of taking offense to it is being willing to be open to like, okay, if I needed correcting, then I'm open to doing that.
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That submission to the Lord first, but then when you have loved ones who care enough to want to share something that makes us a better person, you know, a better person of the Lord, I think that's the thing I find that was so helpful is when you talk about letting things go.
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you said it seems like a death to all that is within our grasp.
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And it's so true.
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When you let go, it's like, I'm letting go of all the emotions and everything.
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Because, I don't know, that's girls sometimes.
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We just want to like, I just want to, I want to have my moment.
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I want to share how I feel and then I'll be fine.
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But sometimes it's more like less is better.
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Sometimes, like you said, then we don't have to apologize on the other end of it.
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Like, oh, because you can't take the power of those words that got released.
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You can't take them back.
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Absolutely.
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That's true.
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No matter what we say and repent of, it's still out there.
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And that woundedness, the enemy tries to use that to sever a relationship.
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That is the enemy's force.
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foothold and as believers is to divide us.
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And I think that's what's so great about what you both are talking about is how do we worship the Lord?
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How do we turn things into, we release what we feel.
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then we maybe need to repent and part of that, but then we worship and we pray it through.
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And we keep in those motions.
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I hear throughout your book it is those different steps that we're taking towards listening to the Lord, obeying what He's saying, and causing our hearts to have that communion with Him and with one another.
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Absolutely.
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It's so good.
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Yeah, the idea of letting go.
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I mean, I'm probably a little bit of a control person, control freak.
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I mean, I'm a type A perfectionist.
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And to let go of things that aren't perfect, aren't as I would design them to be, aren't as I would like them to be.
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You know, letting go of me and trusting him.
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I'd lie to you if I said I had that figured out.
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You know, even the idea of rebuke, of going crossing the line and letting the Lord rebuke you.
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It's funny because I think as a younger Christian, as a kid, I probably would have been afraid of those rebukes.
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Like, okay, I've sinned.
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I've gone too far.
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And now I'm on the naughty list.
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Santa's not coming to my house this year.
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You know, or I've stepped, you know.
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But I don't think that's who God is.
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I think he is so loving.
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And just like Adam and Eve in the garden, where are you?
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He came looking not to rebuke them, but to save them, to clothe them and say, okay, plan B.
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And he knew that was going to happen.
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I think he allowed Jeremiah and Job to pour out their complaint and go too far.
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And it was good for them to do that.
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And now he can speak to that and say, okay, out of line, let's get back.
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I'm God.
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Any thoughts on that?
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No, that's true.
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And I think if we have to calculate all of our prayers and calculate every word with God, we think, okay, both of us have new grandbabies right now, right?
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I mean, we don't want them like, oh, dear grandmother, I would like a cup of juice.
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I mean, there's a relationship.
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I mean, we're...
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We can be ourselves.
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If we're having a bad day, we don't expect our kids to perform for us.
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And God's not expecting us to perform for him.
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And so I think when we can get the picture of he's a good father, he is the good shepherd.
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He loves me.
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And yes, we discipline those.
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As our kids are growing up, there's times that we have to be
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Put him back in line.
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A parent.
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A parent, exactly.
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And so there are times that this good father that we serve, if we get out of line, but if we're always worried about never wanting to open our hearts because we might go too far.
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Or say the wrong thing.
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Listen, our tongues are important.
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You gotta be careful what you say.
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What does James say?
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Who can tame the tongue?
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It's a mess, yeah.
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It's a mess.
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It's like we can tame all sorts of animals, but we cannot contain the tongue.
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And I'm like, yep, that's right.
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But it isn't a, okay, lightning bolt's going to come down and strike me, or because I said that, I'm going to be sick the rest of my life.
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Well, gosh, I said I don't feel good.
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Right.
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Now I'm going to be sick.
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Right.
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I think what it is is, again, not having to calculate everything.
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Right.
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And when we have gone too far with our words, the Lord is very gracious to, or at least he is with me, to put me in my place.
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Right, sure.
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And to remind me, like he did with Job, of who he is.
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When you talk about in one of your chapters, so much of life has lived in waiting.
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And I'm like, I'm like, yes, it is so true.
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Especially as you get older and then you hear the younger kids talk about, oh, I've been waiting for so long.
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Like, oh, you just don't even understand what you're talking about.
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Really?
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You think that's waiting?
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You got nothing on me, right?
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I'm so like, that is the truth.
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I find that so often I'm like, certain things that we're believing for.
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The waiting is painful.
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But I love how, Danny, you talked about it.
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I said waiting is good.
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The examples of when it's good is when you talk about crops, when they grow, or when children maturing.
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you know we're talking about our our babies are not going to do a whole lot it's you know we're going to be just loving them and caring for all every single one of their needs but over time they're going to be able to be able to take care of themselves as they grow older but and then you said waiting is good for
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relationships and flourishing and business deals.
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And so speak to that, both of you, of what do you do with the waiting?
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Because I don't know.
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I know God uses those moments, but there's times I'm like, Lord, if this is my trial, I did not ask for patience.
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And how many more years or moments do I wait?
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Or am I just missing your strategy of prayer towards what I'm believing for?
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Mm-hmm.
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Well, that's a loaded topic, isn't it?
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Yes.
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Because I think as Americans particularly, we are instant everything.
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Yes.
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You know, our hearts are the most important thing about us.
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And God does put things on our hearts to pray for and to believe for, to trust for.
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And, boy, there's a lot of waiting for all of those things.
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And I think waiting builds anticipation and it builds endurance.
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Yeah.
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And it probably leads us to exasperation and at the feet of Jesus.
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And maybe that is his plan.
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I don't think his plan is to punish us or to delay for some reason.
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But the timing of the Lord is one of those things that's probably, I would just throw out the beyond my ability to understand.
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And the seasons of waiting are, I mean,
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Listen, we have spring, summer, winter, and fall.
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We have the seasons, and we know proximally about what those are going to be.
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But those waiting times of marriage or job promotions or the fruitful ministry that you long for, the grandkids, we've waited for a while, and here we are finally.
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Boy, it certainly is a wonderful thing to celebrate once you get to the end.
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And you see the child mature, the business mature, grow, the things that you referenced.
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I think you look back on it and say, God, you were good.
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Even though it didn't feel good.
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It seemed like a long wait.
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And don't you think, really, thinking about farming, our son actually farms.
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And so we know a little bit.
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But most people, when we're reading the Bible, we don't understand the whole life of a farmer and the waiting.
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But that's right.
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Jesus' listeners in that time would have.
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They would have known that.
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And so really, you're waiting all the time.
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There's different crops that come up at different seasons.
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You're planting different things.
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You might harvest this in June and this in July and this in October.
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And so I almost think the rest of our lives, there will be something that we will be waiting on,
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And so I'm like, okay, Lord, help me to get better at this.
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But then I also think that there are those suddenlies.
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Like, you know, we've just had grandbabies, right?
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So you're waiting, waiting, waiting, and that due date can come and go, and you don't know exactly.
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But then when that baby's ready to come, there's no stopping it.
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And so I think sometimes we look back and go, gee, I wish I had enjoyed that time more.
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You know, because as soon as we as soon as that is fulfilled, then we're walking in the fulfillment of that and the waiting's over and we can then kind of go, wow, I guess I was complaining a lot.
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Like it's like waiting for a wedding celebration.
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You're kind of miserable waiting is all it took for it.
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And it's over.
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And you're like, gosh, I wish I was still planning the wedding or still anticipating all the great things.
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That's a really good point of we complain or mourn or it seems hard.
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And then the thing comes and you're like, wow, that went so fast.
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Well, you know, you've got the waiting thing, but one other thing I want to kind of close on an idea is that you talked about distractions, too.
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On the other side is we can get distracted while we're waiting, but we can get distracted just in what God may have for us.
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Because, you know, you and I, Carrie, we were just talking about, you know, it's like squirrel.
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I mean, all of a sudden, so fast, you can just get diverted.
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Like our attention span.
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I mean, what are we all doing?
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We're on our phones and we're scrolling.
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And it's like, how fast?
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But I'm like, I'm scrolling to get past all the ads now.
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I'm like, how many ads before I see people's content of my friends, I don't see that.
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Right.
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We are distracted by the advertisers or we're distracted by life.
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Like, let's speak to that.
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And how is it that the Lord can help us in those places to not be so diverted?
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You know, while there's one part we're waiting forever and the other part is we're so distracted.
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We couldn't hear God if he wanted to speak to us unless we dreamed.
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Those are great.
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Those are great questions, Cheryl, because it can be distracted by, you go down the list, sports, entertainment, raising a family, doing sports, going to school, going to work, all that that entails.
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So all of our distractions aren't necessarily bad things like food preparation.
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We can give an
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A lot of people spend an inordinate amount of times on their bodies at the gym or on their golf game or on things that are decent, but they just devote.
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So we can get distracted and place undue emphasis on many, many things.
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And that's where I think we have to choose daily.
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How am I going to live today?
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What am I going to focus on today?
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Taking time to do this today versus something else today.
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And I think that's where you have to follow your heart and keep that heart before the Lord and have him tell you, help you with all of those distractions to clear.
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Right.
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You know, the people that I admire the most, a lot of the, you know, I think of Eugene Peterson or Rich Mullins, and people would describe these folks as being able to see differently, to see clearer, to have a vision.
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And, you know, there's that scripture that says without a vision, people perish.
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And so to me, seeing what I choose to focus on,
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helps the distractions.
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If I'm looking and focused, I don't get as distracted.
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Whereas if I'm looking for the next entertainment or sports, I could spend all day watching sports.
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I like sports.
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I could waste a lot of time during football season, particularly.
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But I have to say, no, that's way too much time.
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I'm going to focus on my marriage.
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I'm going to focus on Jesus.
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I'm
34:24
mentoring or encouraging or something besides all the distractions.
34:29
That's good.
34:29
Yeah.
34:30
And for me, part of the distraction is then I'll look back and go, I actually missed the joy of the moment.
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And I do believe that, that, you know, when you see encounters the Lord with Moses with the burning bush or, you know, the woman at the well, what, I mean, the, the,
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the moments with Jesus, there were no distractions because, you know, they were face to face with him.
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And, but Moses could have not looked at the burning bush.
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Part of that story is he, he wasn't distracted by everything else around him.
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He was honed in on what's going on over here.
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And so I like what you said, Danny, about Lord, help my eyes.
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May I see the things you want me to see because the enemy always wants us off focus.
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Because if we're off focus, even just a little bit, we miss the main point.
35:19
We'll miss the shooting star.
35:21
We'll miss the joy of what he has for us in that moment.
35:27
So I think one of the topics we've talked about, we highlight a little bit, it was the church hurt.
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And I would like both of you to really speak to what are some things that we can do on both sides, whether it's.
35:38
the people that are the leadership of the church as well as the people that are outside of the church that would love to be a part but because of some form of hurt because we all have that expectation we don't say it but we actually live it as though we're all supposed to be perfect we know we're not but yet for some reason when we look at the pulpit or whatever we expect your perfection
36:03
I also think, like, what is my responsibility?
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Have I prayed for the leadership?
36:07
Have I done my part to ask God to protect those that are in leadership, that the Lord would hover them, protect them, convict them, keep them from sin?
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Is there accountability?
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What have you.
36:18
But can you, Danny and Carrie, both speak to how do we help people move from the place of being hurt and walk into a place of wholeness and healing and come back into the church and finding hope in coming back?
36:33
Yeah.
36:36
Concerning those that carry church hurt, I would say that it's up to us to be Jesus with skin on, to bear the fruits of the Spirit to the people we meet.
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When we're in church, out of church, wherever we are, we carry the fragrance of the Lord with us, or we should.
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And I think...
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You know, I probably touched on some of the hot buttons in that book.
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I think, you know, sometimes our churches can be a little bit, those of us that feel like we have the answers can carry that with a little bit of pride rather than humility.
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And so how we're characterized as an individual, as a body, I think is important.
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So when we're ministering, when we're with people, I think the more we can be like Jesus to them, that goes a long way to curing the hurt someone carries in their heart towards the church when they know that we're believers and that we're practicing.
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We haven't given up on the church.
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Jesus hasn't given up on the church.
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As awkward as it can be, as filled with hypocrites as it can be, that includes us from time to time.
37:46
And then secondarily concerning leaders, I would just say, as we have an opportunity to interact with those that lead among us, is you have to pray for them, Cheryl.
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But also, to be honest, when we have an opportunity to speak, that we're honest.
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And we share with them...
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whatever those things are on our heart that we feel like could make it a better place.
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And I think that's challenging because a lot of people bombard the leaders of churches with their perspectives.
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And they, you know, our pastor will tease, don't give me any more emails.
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You know, and I don't know.
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I don't know how many people are sending me emails, but I don't.
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But if I'm with them personally, or pastors, or anybody that is in leadership positions, and they ask, I think it's our responsibility to be honest and share those things that the Lord is.
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And, you know, I would tag that with you, Danny.
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I got to speak at a church recently, and I thought, boy, that is really difficult.
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And I thought, I would never want to have the role of a pastor.
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Like, you are literally, your job is to speak, and you're going to be criticized every single week.
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I thought, what?
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Who would sign up for that?
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Tough gig.
38:59
Like, who would sign up for that?
39:00
Right.
39:00
If you didn't say the right story or if you saw people, you know, they're on their phones or their eyes are dropping.
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I'm like, what?
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And so I think even when we want to share love and concern is I think if we speak with grace.
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I also I've heard the friend of mine talk about it's the cookie.
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It's the Oreo cookie.
39:19
You know, there's some correcting there, but there's also praising.
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And if they knew some of the great things of what they are doing, it helps to flavor our words with, like, here's the great parts.
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But, you know, it would be great if you ever considered.
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I've heard that word.
39:34
I'm like, if you considered this.
39:36
That way it doesn't feel like you're poking somebody and said, well, you have it wrong.
39:41
I mean, all of us would like shut the door on that.
39:45
Absolutely.
39:45
Right?
39:46
So I think we can say things in such a way that can help them receive the word that you feel the Lord has put on your heart.
39:54
And I think, too, with the whole church hurt thing,
39:58
if our churches would begin to, instead of trying to be like the top church in a city, like we're the best and we're in competition with one another.
40:07
And I don't see that often, but I hear of it.
40:12
And I mean, one thing I always enjoy when someone from our staff actually prays for another church or like, hey, there's other churches meeting and they'll call out different pastors' names across town or churches.
40:21
Like we're not in competition.
40:23
We're in the same family.
40:25
And so maybe if, maybe there would be less offense and less hurt if we weren't always trying to defend that we're the best and, and this is the way we act.
40:36
And it's like, we're just people, we're just human.
40:39
Um, and, and then also to remember that just like with family as a mom and a dad, there is nothing more encouraging to me than when I see my children enjoy one another.
40:51
And you think about that a church, we're the family of God.
40:54
And the Father, it must hurt him when he sees us
41:00
being critical of one another, judging one another, speaking badly of one another, trying to one up each other rather than to say we're family.
41:09
And you know what?
41:09
Sometimes we don't, well, we don't get to choose our families.
41:13
And so sometimes it's, it's like, well, I really don't like you right now, but I love you because, because you're mine.
41:20
And so I just, I wonder if
41:23
if we really saw each other through the eyes of the Lord and saw other churches through the eyes of the Lord, maybe it would just take some of that pressure off of, and the offense off, like, if you want to go to another church, I bless you to do that.
41:39
We don't have to hold on to everybody so tightly.
41:42
That's so good.
41:43
And I love how, Cheryl, you talked about, are we doing our job or our, I don't even want to say duty, but our honor of praying for our pastors?
41:53
And are we doing...
41:54
the honor of praying for our brothers and sisters in Christ who maybe are walking through church hurt and, and, and not trying to not shaming them, right.
42:01
Continuing to call them, reach out to them and invite them to dinner.
42:05
Um, and I think continuing to treat them like family, um, could go a long way.
42:13
Exactly.
42:13
They are family.
42:15
You know, that's so good.
42:16
And I think even as we're talking here is we want you to know that we care here at iRefresh too.
42:22
We want to pray and connect with you.
42:25
We have such incredible resources that you can go and connect at iRefresh.net.
42:30
But the other thing is, is if you are feeling that, that you feel church hurt, or maybe even some of the topics we talked about with Danny's book about the waiting, or you've experienced a part of what Job has gone through,
42:42
This is really a good resource to really stir up within you, help you kind of resolve, bring peace, even when you don't understand everything, that we can find the peace of God to help us to find what Paul says, I have found contentment, even in the place where I'm at.
42:57
And he was saying that in prison.
42:59
God has incredible hope and future for you.
43:02
He desires for you to walk out of the hurt, the pain, not ignore it.
43:07
Acknowledge it and press on and continue that dialogue with Him.
43:11
It is about prayer.
43:13
And that's where Dana and Carrie, they're all about prayer, about loving, showing the fruits of the Spirit so that we can come on the other side, connect and celebrate each other's wins, our sorrows, the victories, and the ones we're going to keep on believing for the healing and restoration.
43:29
You know, it's interesting is we've barely even touched, what, maybe a couple chapters worth?
43:36
Like we've only highlighted a few.
43:37
Right, yeah.
43:38
But that's the great thing about it is you can actually, you can get your own copy.
43:42
And so would you tell us, Danny, how can we get a copy of your book?
43:45
Sure.
43:46
So there are any place books are sold.
43:47
You can go to Amazon or Barnes & Noble.
43:50
Or dannykittinger.com, and they take you right over there to Amazon.
43:54
If you want to just go right to your website.
43:56
dannykittinger.com, and you'll find them.
43:57
So it's dead ends, detours, and a world of wonders.
44:00
So we hope that you will not only listen to this, but share it with somebody else.
44:04
Know that the hope of God is still there, that He hears, and He's responding to you.
44:10
Keep talking to Him.
44:11
He is here to listen.
44:13
Amen.
44:14
If this episode encouraged you, don't let it end here.
44:17
Open your Bible, seek God's heart, and discover the life-changing power of His promises for yourself.
44:23
Until next time, keep pursuing the God who changes everything.