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Episode 4: Avatar · How Have You Not Seen This?

• Miriam: Did you take AP US history? Leslye: Ooh, good question. Kate: I I did Miriam: I know Kate and I did. I think we were in the same class, Kate: and I showed Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure as my final project. Miriam: And I requested, Apocalypse Now. There's nothing better than a Kate: Ha ha ha. Miriam: solid month after the AP test when you just get to watch movies that somewhat touch on American history. you know what's crazy is that when we were growing up, all history ended after the Vietnam War, right? my recollection Leslye: true. Miriam: was that you take a long time with the Continental Congress and then you do a long Leslye: Yes, that's true. Miriam: three months on the Civil War and then we got to the Vietnam War and then it was just like history over. And after that we just watch movies until the end of the year. So is that is that just 'cause we grew up in the nineties? Leslye: That just reminds me of Avatar. Welcome to How Have You Not Seen This, a podcast about crimes against cinema, where one of the three of us confesses there is an iconic movie we have never seen, and the other two ask the only logical question, How have you not seen this? I'm Leslye Miriam: I'm Miriam. Kate: And I'm Kate. Leslye: The format is simple. There's a confession, an interrogation, atonement, and absolution. At the end of all of this, we'll ask the pivotal question, can we still be friends? time for a confession. Miriam, what movie have you not seen? Miriam: I have never seen this movie. I think it's called Avatar. Leslye: I can't believe it. Kate: I am surprised you haven't seen it though. first of all it was a smash hit. Second of all there's Miriam: What's it? Leslye: Yeah. Kate: there's so many of them now. And third of all it's like sci fi it's exactly the kind of thing that you would enjoy. Miriam: yeah, SciFi Yeah, but I feel like every time there's a new Avatar I'm like, who saw that movie? Like why are they making another one? Kate: people. A lot of people saw it. Leslye: You think they just keep making them but no one's watching them? Miriam: Yeah. No, I just I just assume that there's a lot of goodwill after Titanic for James Cameron. So they're like, yeah, I guess make as many Avatars as you want. You know, you gave us Titanic. I do wanna Leslye: Right, Miriam: I remember that I saw Amistad in the theater at Christmas. 1997 Leslye: Okay. Miriam: and then my brother and my sister and i snuck into Titanic and it was so Leslye: Ha ha Miriam: much boat movie watching but so vastly different it was a great day it was a great Christmas but anyway boat movies Leslye: Two boat movies. my god. Miriam: but anyway Avatar I totally missed it Leslye: But how? Miriam: I don't know. But Kate is right. I do love sci fi movies, so I am kinda surprised, but I don't know. I think I Kate: I do find it surprising. I don't find it surprising that you didn't see Avatar three, four, five, however, twelve, however many of them there are. But the first Leslye: What we're on right now. Yeah. Kate: one was such a big thing when it came out. Miriam: Wow. what year was it? Kate: I think it was two thousand Leslye: I think it was Kate: nine kind of that era. Mm-hmm. Miriam: 2000. really? Wow. I Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: thought this movie came out in like 1999. my gosh. Leslye: No, it was yeah, like two thousand yeah, I think two thousand nine, two thousand ten, something like that, Kate. You're right. Whatever it was, Kate's Kate: Around there. Yeah. Leslye: right. She's always right. Miriam: And they're blue. They're some shade of blue. Leslye: Okay, s Kate: no, wait. Okay, yeah, tell us what you know about it. Miriam: They're Smurfs? They're Smurfs but taller. Kate: I mean you're not wrong. Miriam: All I really know about Avatar is that SNL sketch with Ryan Gosling where he hates the font. Leslye: The font? I haven't seen this. Miriam: You've never seen this sketch? Leslye: No Kate: Mm-hmm. Miriam: It's actually really funny. what's the font called? Leslye: The font? How would we Miriam: get away. the Leslye: know that? Miriam: Yeah, they use Papyrus as their font. and he hates it. it's very, very funny. So I guess all I know is that they're blue. It's a planet. Another planet, maybe, and it gets invaded, and the people there are blue. and they're called the I don't know. Leslye: You keep mentioning them being blue, like we got it. Miriam: maybe there's like an army and they come and try to colonize their planet and then they fight back. That's all I got. Leslye: Okay. Papyrus is a free font, so it is upsetting, yeah. Miriam: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Leslye: Do you know who's in this movie? Kate: At least it wasn't Comic Sans. Leslye: true, true. Miriam: Thank goodness. who's in this movie? Hmm. I got no one. I honestly Leslye: How did you how did you K Kate Kate Miriam: Were they all like unknowns? Are there famous people in this movie? Kate: I can't wait for you to watch this now. Leslye: Kate help me. Miriam: Did I didn't know it was directed by James Cameron? Isn't that anything? I couldn't name one person in this movie. Sigourney Weaver? Is she in like a sequel? Maybe. Kate: Wouldn't you like to know? Miriam: would like to know. I have a real blind spot. Leslye: It just feels like a movie you have to have seen. I know that's the point of this podcast, but genuinely Miriam: Ha ha. Leslye: like when we brought it up and you said you hadn't seen it, let's talk about how mad you got about having to watch this movie. Miriam: I don't wanna watch it. It's the papyrus. It's the papyrus font. I don't wanna see it. I know. Kate: You were also like it came out yesterday, we're like it came out like twenty years ago. Leslye: Like and then you just said that it came out in nineteen ninety nine. So what is it? Get Miriam: I know. I have no idea. I honestly feel like maybe it's the it's gotta be the movie poster or the the trailers I've seen. I mean it's known for like having really good CGI, correct? Leslye: Why don't you want to watch it? Like, why was your feeling, my God, you're so upset? Miriam: It looks it looks kinda silly. It looks kinda silly. Like I said, it looks more like Smurfs than like, you know, cool planet. Cool sci-fi. I didn't say I liked him. I said I loved Titanic. Leslye: But you like James Cameron. Whoa. Shots fired. Okay. do you like Aliens? Miriam: Love Aliens. yeah, I do love I love Love Aliens. Kate: Dif this is why this i is exactly a movie I think Miriam: But I've Kate: you would have seen. Miriam: but I've only saw Aliens in the last like two years and then quickly became obsessed with it. Is this gonna be like Aliens? Leslye: But what about tr Miriam: Cause then I'm really excited. Kate: But with Smurfs, yeah. Leslye: No, then you'd be real psyched. Miriam: Aliens But with Smurfs. You know, maybe I will like this movie. Leslye: I do feel like you've got the finger on the pulse of like culture, like this is the thing that's happening. Like like we were talking about Kate Miriam: Hmm. Thank you. Thank you very much. Leslye: I don't even remember what I was saying because that was so stupid. You know, you've got your finger. I Miriam: That's the that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. Wow. Leslye: just I on the pulse of it, when you said you hadn't seen it, I just felt like like what we said about Kate in The Matrix, right? Miriam: Hmm. Leslye: Like was it just that you missed the moment? 'Cause it feels like it was a moment. But may like like the Avengers or something, but maybe I'm Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: wrong. Like I seem to remember it being a thing that happened and like everybody was Miriam: Mm. Leslye: having an opinion about it, whether they liked it or not. Miriam: Broadly, I feel like it didn't get on my radar, but if it was in 2008, 2009, man, I was working so hard. I was in my 20s and I was like very committed to work. And I Leslye: Okay. Miriam: probably like never got to go to the movies. I worked on Broadway, you know, eight shows a week. I mean, I wasn't in the shows, when I worked in Leslye: You know, it's like you're making it sound like yeah, you were Cosette in Les Miz Miriam: Cosette I was Kate: Ha ha. Leslye: that whole time. Miriam: when I did my starring turn as Cosette in Les Miz I just Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: I did not have time to go to the movies. Leslye: Ha ha ha. Miriam: it's true. We are working our butts off. We only I mean, for a movie to break through, it had to be like wait, what movie really broke through? I think it had to find Kate: It was like a huge smash at it. Leslye: Yeah. Avatar would be one of them. Miriam: Time it was There Will Be Blood was like the only movie that was like, I gotta get to the movies, but other than that. Leslye: Okay, valid. That was two thousand seven. Miriam: All right. So in this that time frame kind of. Yeah. Leslye: yeah, no it is. You're right actually. Miriam: Do you think I'm gonna like this movie? Leslye: No. Miriam: Interesting. Kate, what do you think? Leslye: I don't Kate: you'll like it. Leslye: think you're Kate: I don't think you'll love it, but I think you'll like it. I think Miriam: Mm. Okay. Kate: there's enough of the elements of things that you enjoy in there wait, it could go either way. You could also hate it. Like it could be one of those Miriam: it could only go there. Kate: things you know when something checks every box and so you should love it, but for some reason you can't get behind it. Miriam: Okay. Leslye: I think gonna come back and be like, I can't believe you guys made me watch that. we're not friends anymore. So yeah, I'm bracing myself. Miriam: Who who who gave him all that money? Cause that is my one other thing I know Leslye: Yes, yeah. Miriam: about this movie is that it costs a lot of money. Leslye: I'm curious, I have not seen it since it was in theaters. So I am interested to Miriam: Mm. Mm-hmm. Kate: Me too. Yeah. Leslye: I don't think this is spoiling anything to say, Kate, did you like it in the theater when you watched it? Kate: Think so. I don't think I loved it, because I didn't watch any of the other ones. I've only ever seen the first one. And I was like, that's enough Avatar for me. That is good. Leslye: Yeah, ringing endorsement. Yeah. All right. we're gonna jump forward in time to a moment where Miriam has watched Avatar. Miriam: The Smurfs sequel. Kate: The Smurfs in space. Leslye: Smurfs in space. Miriam: Okay. Love Leslye: Mm. Miriam: Smurfs in space. right, I'm excited. See you on the other side. Leslye: together. okay, and we are back. It's been a week Miriam: we're back. Leslye: or some time, some amount of time. Miriam, what did Miriam: Yo. Leslye: you think of Avatar? Miriam: What did I think of Avatar Let me gather my thoughts. I Kate: Maybe we we should rephrase that to say, Are you still talking to me and Leslye Miriam: I did want to like this movie, but unfortunately, There's a lot I did not like about it. I thought overall, it is a big movie spectacle that. was like doing all the things of a big movie, some of the dialogue and the voiceovers are terrible. It really, really, really blows my mind when you can do this huge big budget movie, right? And like spend so much money on every aspect of it except, I don't know, get someone else to write your script, man. okay, I get it. This is supposed to be a broad action movie. The script doesn't need to be good. They can have some wildly terrible lines in it. but it was still like still pretty impressive. Like cannot be denied. it is a visually stunning movie, even though I don't actually like the graphics at all. I can understand. that it it looks very cool. I just feel like Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: it looks too CGI and I was like, you know what would have been great? An animated movie. Like this would have been amazing if it was an animated film. Leslye: yeah, that's a good point. Like if it was Miriam: You know? Leslye: like an anime or like a studio Ghibli. Miriam: Yeah, it could have looked so cool and you basically would have gotten the same things because so much of the CGI looks just like animation. And I understand that it was like motion capture and that so much work went into it and it cost so much money. But I was like, ooh, d does it really come through? do the performances really come through in motion capture? Probably not. But let's get into it. Leslye: I'm surprised that you are Miriam: didn't hate it. I definitely didn't hate it. unlike Leslye I can be a little bit critical and not just go through pure emotional reaction. So I was like, there's a lot to like here. when I was watching it, I did find it wildly depressing. Wildly depressing. Yeah. Kate: Depressing? Miriam: you guys didn't think this was a depressing movie? No? Kate: it was the longest two Miriam: It's so Kate: hours and forty-five minutes of my life. I hated every second of it. Miriam: no, it was long. Yeah. No, because it is so depressing how much it is about colonialism and a destruction of an indigenous Leslye: Right. Yeah. Miriam: people. Like, I mean, obviously it's trying to make the point that that's bad, but it is tough to watch. And it really I Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: found it very depressing. Like on a global scale. Leslye: That's true. And what did you feel like the moral of the movie was? Miriam: you know, it like killing a whole race of people probably bad. Destroying the planet, probably bad. Leslye: Not great. Miriam: This is another movie that makes me think to myself, are people watching it with the same critical thinking that as other people? Because you're watching and I was like, I know that this movie was made for a 13-year-old boy. Like, hands down. it's very simplistic. looks like a video game. the fact that you could walk away and like maybe glamorize the insane colonel who's really so bloodthirsty is crazy to me. Because I do think that for James Cameron, his point is that war is bad, destruction of people is bad, destruction of our planet is bad. we're gonna destroy one planet as humans and then just go find another one to destroy. Sounds great. how did you guys Leslye: got some Miriam: feel about the movie? Okay. Kate: Every like two or three minutes and we get a text from Leslye being like, This is the worst thing I've ever had to sit through. I don't know Leslye: Y yeah. Kate: if I can make it to the end. Leslye: I hated it. I saw it in the theater the first time, I don't remember being this like vitriolic about not liking it. Yeah. Kate: Me neither. Yeah. Miriam: Yeah. Kate: I think I kinda liked it. But I here's what I think we both forgot is that it was a 3D movie phenomenon. So the whole thing is filmed, to be a three D visual adventure. And so Leslye: Yeah Kate: watching it on a laptop, which is how I watched it. Thank Leslye: Same. Same. Miriam: Okay. Kate: you. Miriam, what did you watch then? Miriam: I do, I have to confess, I did have to watch this on a laptop because I was in a hotel room. But Kate. Kate: Feel totally vindicated from the two of you giving me so much shit for watching The Matrix on a laptop. Miriam: But Kate, when I was watching it, I was trying to think big. I was trying to project it in my Kate: Sha okay, sure. Miriam: mind. I was trying to project it, you know, make it real big. Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. These are lovely justifications. anyway, I do think Leslye: Right. Right. Kate: I kept I was like, why did I why did I not dislike this so much? But I think it's because I didn't pay attention to the story at all when I saw it in the theater. I just paid attention to like the weird little jellyfishes coming down around Miriam: Kate, those are seeds. Come on. Kate: Okay, well listen, for all of the exposition in that film, I don't think they explained that one to me blatantly, so I missed it. Leslye: Miriam, if you start criticizing us for the world building, we're not gonna make it. Like w Miriam: We're not gonna does this happen in the same universe as Aliens? Kate: No, but they're unrelated. No. I the only Miriam: Or alien? No? Unrelated completely? It could though. Leslye: No. What Kate: relation is Sigourney Weaver, I think. Miriam: Because this Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: the plot is so similar to Aliens Like it's the same plot. Not and I and Kate: Th mean the plot of Pocahontas that they just these people into? Leslye: my god. Miriam: You mean the plot of Ferngully? Kate: Yeah. And Dancing with Wolves, you mean that those plots? Leslye: Yeah, two movies I haven't seen. I haven't seen Fern Gully or Dances Miriam: jeez. Kate: Yeah. Miriam: no, the world building is amazing. Like, there is, you know, the ship design is very cool. The cryo chambers I loved the design of it almost better than when you get to Pandora. the graphics and the creatures are cool, but there's There's like too many legs on everything. You know, like all the creatures kind of look the same. there's the big pterodactyl bird. There was like the ones that they ride at first, and then there was like the special one he rode I was like, this looks like the same one. What's the big deal? Leslye: This one's orange. Miriam: yeah. I was very mixed. I was very much like, I know that this is. achieving a lot, but I don't like it at all. Kate: I that's a nicer take on the movie than I have the second time around. I think I was like, this is so painful. I don't know if I can make it through. Leslye: man. Kate: This to me looks like James Cameron walked into a dorm room covered in black light posters, got high, and was like, guys. What if we make a movie that's like Pocahontas but Smurfs in space? And then that was it, like that was the whole design ethos to me. But I don't think that's necessarily a fair critique. I think that's a two 2026 looking at it, watching it on a laptop and Leslye: Well Kate: not in a theater with all of the advancements in 3D Leslye: No, Miriam: It looks like Leslye: just Miriam: Leslye's headphones. Kate: Looks like Leslye's cat headphones. Leslye: Yeah, it looks like my cat ears. Yeah. I'm wearing it Miriam: Ha. Leslye: in in s in solidarity with Avatar. yeah. Miriam: In solidarity. Kate: Yeah. But I did look up in the middle of it, I I Googled why do people like Avatar? 'Cause I couldn't figure it out. Leslye: Mm. Miriam: Mm-hmm. Kate: And it came back with basically that it's what you were saying, Miriam, it's a very simple plot. And so when people watch it and enjoy it, it's a visual vacation. Like that was sort of the general theme of of why people got on board with it. And I think because I didn't enjoy the visual vacation, I was not on board with it so much. Miriam: I have to say I really did not know anything about the fact that they were actual avatars. Like I did not understand that they I totally did not get that he was going to be in this chamber where his like mind is projected into the hybrid. that totally never occurred to me, even though it's called Avatar. I just never thought of that. I don't know. I thought like maybe Avatar was like, I don't know, the name of the planet or the project Leslye: Of the Smurfs. Miriam: or something, but I didn't actually think. That he was going to be projected into this mind of fake Navi. Like I did not see that coming at all. So to me, I was like, this is kind of an interesting take on this movie trope of colonizers or like getting embedded with the indigenous people. I was like, you like literally are one of them. I did think that was interesting. the fact that he was a paraplegic. And the fact that they were trying to get him to to go murder all these people by being like, We'll give you your legs back seemed like pretty wild to me. But he has some motivation. And he gets to run around and when he's like in the Avatar. So I Leslye: What Miriam: was kind of like, that is a cool way in. Leslye: Okay, so what did you think of the protagonist? did you buy into the fact that he really wanted the legs? Like, did you Miriam: Ha ha ha. Leslye: Were you rooting for him in any way at all? Kate: Were you like, was this made before after Lost? Because that's what I kept thinking the entire time. I was like, this is John Locke. Like I just kept thinking Miriam: What you sorry, what was that? Leslye: John Locke. Kate: it was in my head, I was like, what came first? This or Lost Miriam: That's blasphemy. Lost is a thousand times better than this. How dare you? but also again, like it did feel really like Aliens to me, the company that's there and they're trying to do the mining. First of all, the worst name for a mineral ever ever is unobtainium. Kate: Unobtainium Leslye: It is it is Yeah. Yeah. Miriam: I mean, how stupid. That is so like nobody was like, guys, we could do better than this? Leslye: Nobody said to James Cameron like this is a disaster. Like you need to I bet don't Miriam: Guys. Yeah. We need something else. Leslye: Do you think that he put it in there and everybody read it and was like, this is a placeholder? Like he's gonna he's gonna change he's gonna change this later. And then they get Miriam: This is a placeholder, a hundred percent. Leslye: to Giovanni Rabisi's first day on set, and Miriam: Ha Leslye: he's like, I guess I'm saying it. I get like nobody told me not to. Miriam: I guess we're doing this. Leslye: James Cameron's just like staring at him expectantly, you know. Miriam: Also great to see Giovanni Ribisi I love that guy. I was so I was so happy to see him. Leslye: I love that guy too. We were texting about him. I was like, what is that guy? Miriam: What happened to him? Leslye: He's such a great actor. He's like, Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: I think really underutilized. I feel like Casey Affleck kind of took what his career was supposed to be. You know? Miriam: Ooh, great point. Great point. Leslye: I was like, where's his Marvel movie? Kate: It's Avatar. Like isn't this guy making a lot of money off of Avatar? Leslye: yeah. Valid. Miriam: Ha ha. Leslye: Valid. Miriam: yeah. And also I could not believe that they use papyrus for the subtitles too. Kate: I know that was rough. Leslye: That was crazy. That was crazy. Kate: That was rough. Leslye: If there were some things that were like wildly lazy about the movie, and then there were things Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: that were like feats of cinema. And then there Miriam: Yes. Leslye: was just stuff that you were like, like the part at the beginning with the exposition, Miriam, like Miriam: awful, awful. The I said worst VO. The VO is terrible. And Leslye: my Miriam: also confusing. Leslye: So confusing. Like if you think about the Matrix and how well that like doled out all the world building. It was like 20 minutes in and I was like, we're still talking? Miriam: Yeah. And also he like his accent went in and out. I hate to say it, but I did not care for this actor at all. I feel like Leslye: No, he was a zero. Miriam: he's very rich, so I'm sure it's okay. But like I just Kate: Yeah, I listen, he's doing just fine. Yeah. Miriam: I just felt like I wasn't getting anything. I wasn't endeared to him in any way. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I guess again, I don't think it matters, but like you just don't care about any of these characters. I mean, Leslye: Yeah, they don't feel like Miriam: you kind of care about the Navi I don't know if I'm saying that right, but you kinda care about them, don't care about anyone. Kate: Just think the effects took over. It just became what they were saying, a visual vacation. And that became the primary point of the film. And then it didn't really matter what was happening in the plot. You know, at the end where they can communicate each other through the neck thing? But she's like, did they explain that? And I was like, I'm not even Miriam: yeah, yeah, they're communicator. Kate: sure this movie has like a real plot to have plot holes in. Like I think it was just Leslye: Yeah. Kate: kind of give up and it was like. We're here for those three D effects. We're gonna blow people's minds they did that very well. So if that's your objective, I think it was a a success, for sure. Leslye: Okay, I'm gonna get really nerdy here, which is like Kate: Do it. Leslye: I so one of my favorite video games is Elden Ring, and it's an incredible game. It's like a huge, Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: huge open world game. the creature design in it is so cool. like all the creatures, all of them you're murdering, but they're all so well designed and they're all different, and Miriam: Mm. Leslye: they all live in different environments and ecosystems. And this was like you said, it was like Everybody's got two eyes and six legs and it it looks exactly like a rhino and and it just didn't hit me. I think what you were saying, Kate, when I watched it the first time, I was like, Whoa, this is so cool. who comes up with this? And now that it's 15 years later, I'm like, this is really bad character design, actually. Miriam: it just looked like a video game. Like it didn't Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: feel like a movie. It felt more like a video game animation. Like still impressive, Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: but just not super engaging. like you're saying Les It was like one thing off. It's like it's a horse, but it kind of was like a seahorse head. Like it Leslye: Sh. Miriam: was kind of like, what? It's a panther, but like, not like, you know, Leslye: Uh-huh. Miriam: like this is kind of so I. the tree stuff was cooler than like the actual animals. Leslye: Yeah, that stuff was cool. Miriam: also something that really annoyed me was that Sigourney Weaver. It's a favor. She's like Leslye: Well, yeah. Miriam: money, and also I'm doing a big favor for my friend James Cameron I was like, what a waste of Sigourney Weaver. Leslye: I think she like deeply loves him. I think that's the only Miriam: that's great. Leslye: thing that makes sense. Miriam: Yeah, and what a good friend. And again, she made a lot of money. Kate: I might but I put a note down that said n not even Sigourney Weaver's impression of Margaret Mead can save this movie. I don't know what's happening. Miriam: That is so good. it really annoyed me. when she was her like person version, she was like rocking. a good, outfit. you hit a certain age and this is the only way I want to dress where I'm wearing my denim shirt and my tan pants. Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: Favorite look. Why? When she was the Avatar, was she wearing a crop Leslye: This is what's up. Yep. Miriam: top? Like, what? Why? No, but like, yeah. Well Leslye: Everybody else looks like a Navi, like everybody else Kate: And the only one yeah, the only one with like clothes on. Miriam: I was like, this is the weirdest wardrobe choice. It didn't make any sense to me and it really, really annoyed me. Leslye: I sent Kate a a text that w said in all caps, Sigourney Weaver is smoking in a lab. What? What? Miriam: Yeah, well again, what? I also really hated the like dichotomy between like we're the Marines and I think they call them a bunch of Limp Dick science majors. Like, what? Leslye: my god. Miriam: I hated all the hostility towards the scientists. you have like cool helicopters? I like the amp suits, he stole it from Aliens. Like, yeah, this has got some cool marine toys, but the scientists created avatars, okay? Like Leslye: Yeah, yeah, pull it together. Yeah, yeah. Miriam: Let's have some respect. Okay. They're doing a very cool job. But even that exposition was there a school at some point? I really was so confused at Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: like did they explain that and I missed it? Like, did they ever explain the original embedment? Leslye: No, not at all. Nope. Nope. That's a that that's a thing too, is like the the first 20 minutes, it they are throwing everything at you. Like in a way, just don't Miriam: Ha ha. Leslye: think about it's almost like the movie's going, don't think about it, don't think about it, It's like, here's a guy, here's a planet, here's a backstory, here's world world building, he's a twin. They've developed this technology, they're working with the the military. Okay, cool, let's go. It's really for a story that's so simple, huh? Miriam: I know, I understood the twin thing. I love that it's also like he had a twin who was a scientist, but he's a dumb marine. Like Leslye: surprised that you liked this Well that you you didn't like the movie but Kate: Me too. I was for sure she's gonna hate us for making her off to us. Miriam: didn't like it, but I was like, okay. I mean, I can understand why it was so groundbreaking. Like I could totally Kate: A success Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Miriam: understand. So I didn't hate it. I also I was entertained. Like there are like a lot of huge, set pieces, and like there's a lot of cool action. So like I got it. I didn't like it, Leslye: Well, that's saying something, because earlier in the episode, when you were Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: talking about not not having seen it, you were like, who's seen this movie? You know, like was it a big deal? And Miriam: Mm-hmm. Leslye: I feel like after the fact, after having seen it, that you maybe understand that better or no. Miriam: This This movie is how I would rate, okay, stay with me, Radio City Christmas Spectacular. I could see every dollar being spent on the stage. Okay. Like at the Leslye: Right. Miriam: end, when they do the nativity scene and you get a camel, you get like donkeys. There's never a moment when you're sitting in that show where you're not like, okay, I know why I had to spend $150 for this ticket. I see it in front of me. That's what this movie was like. I see the money being spent, except on the script. So I can respect it on that level. Leslye: j Kate just so you know if you haven't seen the Christmas spectacular when she says there's a camel it's an actual camel. Kate he's he's famous Kate Miriam: He's a famous camel Kate: Yeah. He's famous, yeah. Yeah. Miriam: he's famous. Leslye: why Kate: You don't know about the Miriam: You don't know about the Camel Kate: famous camel? Leslye: Jesus Christ. Miriam: I was once told that he is Kate: Where are you then? Miriam: he's the Cary Grant of animal actors. that camel. Yeah. It's true. Leslye: Uh-oh. I think I was listening Kate: I lost my head I laughed so hard I lost my headphone. Okay, I'm back. Leslye: the beginning of this episode, Miriam, and you were like, you were like, I was busy, I had a job. And Miriam: I had a job. Leslye: I was like, wait a minute, wasn't your job on 42nd Street, which is literally two doors down Kate: Right there. Leslye: from a famously huge movie theater? So Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Miriam: True. It's true. But also no regrets. I'm okay with the fact that I didn't see this movie. Leslye: Yeah. Kate: I think you would have liked it better in the theater though. Because I don't Leslye: I do too, yeah. Miriam: I Kate: I I'm not a big 3D person in general. I do Miriam: Mm. Kate: not enjoy three D movies, but I will say this is I think the impact of this for me and why I didn't get distracted by how little the plot made any sense was that Leslye: Yeah. Kate: the visuals were just cool to sit through for a couple Miriam: Yeah. Kate: of hours. Leslye: I think when I saw it it it was similar, Kate. I remember I saw it in LA at that cinema dome thing. And I remember it being over and kind of thinking, Wow, I mean, what else do you want? Like just kinda here you go. Congratulations, Miriam: Yeah. Like we gave you a big movie. But again, I Leslye: you know. Miriam: like I said, it was just so depressing it's just this naked colonialism. when they're like, we have to go to the indigenous Navi people and convince them to give up their home. at one point they say that this a species that has been around for like thousands of years before humans. And they're like, so we're just gonna go and like see if we can give them like, equipment or weapons that they like. And then they'll just abandon their home. And we'll just come Leslye: It's so true. Miriam: in and we'll take it over and mine it until it's destroyed. Like, what? Kate: They taught them English, Miriam. What more could you want? It's like Yeah. Leslye: Wait, is that what they did? Miriam: It's well who who can say? We don't know really. I did not understand. They're like, we taught them English. Kate: they do say that in there, that they taught them English. Yeah. Leslye: They did? Cause no one was speaking wait, CCH Pounder Kate: speak English. Leslye: was speaking it, yeah. Kate: Yeah. Miriam: They have like one random scene where you're were they missionaries? Like it was so confusing. Leslye: right, it's that part of colonialism where they come in and they're like, Let us teach our Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: ways Kate: do you see it as a white savior trope though? Miriam: I don't see as a white savior trope because it's white people destroying them. So nah. Leslye: No no no no what's his name? The main guy. Kate: The main guy. Miriam: Sully? I did see it as a chosen one trope. It's definitely a chosen one. It was definitely the seed Kate: Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Miriam: chose you. The jelly, the jellyfish seed, they chose him. Kate: Jellyfish knows you, yeah. Miriam: They were like, they chose you to do what? I'm not sure. To help us after you sold us out. Leslye: They're like, no one has ever ridden this lizard bird. And then he's Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: like, I did it in two point five seconds. Cause I just jumped on it. Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: And they're like, Okay. No one else has been able to do this, but you could. Yeah, it was sus. Miriam: It when she was like, I forgive you for destroying my home and murdering my father, I was like, Really? Gonna forgive him for that? Leslye: Really? It was pretty quick too. Miriam: Yeah, pretty quick. And then they were like, at the end they're like, you know what? You could just like become one of us permanently. It's all cool. Leslye: Yeah, it did feel like a love conquers colonial lism. Kate: Ha ha ha. Miriam: I was surprised at how awful I don't remember his name, but the colonel, like he was truly awful and had some really like monstrous lines, you know, like calling them cockroaches and wanting to like nuke and Kate: Monkey monkeys and you Miriam: some lines where they're like, you're stuck in like a tick. just the language. I mean, obviously I know he's the villain and But it was like pretty vile. And again, that's where I was like, if I looked at it through a lens of our current world, it just was deeply depressing. it's that confusing thing where you're like, this villain, this colonel, they also try to make him look cool. Like, you know, like he Leslye: Right, yeah. Kate: Yeah. Miriam: has like the scratches on his head, and you're like, What is this about? Like, never explain it. But they're glorifying the Marines and giving them all these cool weapons. Leslye: Right. Miriam: And they do it in Aliens too, but I felt like in this they were doing it even harder. Leslye: but in Aliens they're the heroes. aren't they I'm trying to remember. then the Aliens are the bad guys. And then in this one it's like he couldn't decide who the bad guys were. He was like, Well, Miriam: Whoa. Leslye: obviously the colonialists are the bad guys, but also check out their cool fucking shit, man, right? Miriam: You know what's kind of crazy though? In Aliens, I did not think that the Aliens were the bad guys. Leslye: Okay. Miriam: I mean, Alien One, Leslye: Well Miriam: yeah, but Aliens, the sequel, Leslye: Well Miriam: again, they go to their planet and there it's a mother with her pods of little Aliens, and they like try to kill them all and take over their planet. So I don't know, Leslye: Okay, valid. Miriam: are the Aliens the villains? Leslye: Well Miriam: If these people come to your planet and threaten you and then you fight back, who's the real villain? Leslye: Wait, is it is the shark not a villain in Jaws? Miriam: The shark! I don't think the shark was a villain. Kate: just hungry. Miriam: Just like Jaws, the mayor is the true villain. And just like in this movie, it's the marine, it's the corporate over lords that are trying to mine the spice. Leslye: the spice. I I think we're going to Dune now. Kate: she's she's on her Miriam: That's a that's Kate: Dune. She's stuck on her Dune thing, yeah. Miriam: a Dune reference. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. What is it called? Kate: Ub unobtanium, Miriam: Wait. I I an out Leslye: the Dune movies. I have to w I Kate: named this stuff in general in this movie? The Leslye: have to watch them. Kate: Hallelujah Mountains? I was like, I can't. This is what's Miriam: Yeah. Kate: happening. Miriam: The floating mountains were really cool. Leslye: over Miriam: I think you were right, Leslye. I think a lot of these were placeholder names, and it was like, note to self, come up with Kate: No, I look back. Miriam: a better name. And then they were like, we're so far into this, let's just stick with it. Leslye: Yeah, but I don't think it was other people. I think it was James Cameron, I do think he was so focused on Pandora. he was focused on creating a language, creating a design, a whole civilization, which by the way, he didn't even really take a step that far from reality. have you guys seen The Abyss? It's it's an Miriam: Mm, no. Kate: y I ages and ages ago. Yeah. Leslye: incredible script. It's so great. I mean obviously Titanic is sweeping but The Abyss is unbelievable in terms of character. Kate: but I think you could probably turn all of the dialogue off on Titanic and watch it and enjoy it just as much. Like I think you're in it for I think he's Leslye: I think this is true, yeah. Kate: really good at creating visual experiences. that's a good reason to watch a movie. I think this was a good reason to watch Avatar was to experience visuals, especially the 3 D effects that were like so groundbreaking that you wouldn't have seen before. Like that's the spectacle. The spectacle is not the story. Miriam: I completely agree. they were like, we need to fill in these details. We need a language. We need a place where they live. Even though just to be clear, I didn't see any kind of like shelter. This was all just like free, free living in the tree, which is fine. But like to your point. Leslye: yeah, that's true. Miriam: we gotta fill in these big details But there were no like little moments, like even in their relationship, it was just so like, let's learn to ride some dragons together and some horses together, quick montage, and then it's like, We're in love, we're having, alien sex. there were not a lot of small moments that ingratiated these characters on you at all. Leslye: Their whole romantic relationship was more world building. It was her Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: being like, This is this tree, Miriam: really, it's just the atrocious script. I mean, I wrote down some of lines. Leslye: It's really bad. Miriam: I'm a scientist. I don't believe in fairy tales. Come on. You make Sigourney Weaver say that. That's so rude. I hated when they kept saying, I see you. I see you. Come on. Leslye: I yeah, I hated that too. Miriam: You're killing me. You're killing me. Even though I did think it was kind of funny when she finally When she finally meets Jake Sully when he's like a human, like I was like Kate: Looks like a tiny baby. Leslye: That was so funny. Miriam: I I was like I was like this is so embarrassing for you. Leslye: And then it was like I loved that when they were trying to bring him back to life at the at the end they like wrapped him in that cobweb diaper or whatever so that we didn't see Miriam: Ha ha ha. Leslye: his like naked butt. I was like, You can show us a naked butt. Kate: And they did that to Sigourney Weaver, they wrapped her in vines. And I have this note that was just like, what what is happening right now? Where Miriam: Worst Kate: did these perfectly placed vines come from? Miriam: That wardrobe was crazy. I was like, this is the weirdest like Garden of Eden vines that they have her in. Like it looked so fake. It was so weird. Like that was not CGI. Leslye: Also, like, why does her Avatar like look exactly like Sigourney Weaver? Because the others avatars Kate: Yeah. Leslye: like his Avatar pretty much looks like a Navi, like bro. Th there isn't anything about his face that's like but maybe it's because Sam Worthington just has sort of a generic face. He has like a generic face, a generic voice. You're kind of like sure, whatever. Miriam: I didn't want to say that, but I think that's it. I think like that he Leslye: Okay, here are here Miriam: I guess. Leslye: are a couple of the the texts that we sent each other. the CGI is like cats. It just has not held up that much. Miriam: Mm. Leslye: in all caps Michelle Rodriguez is so hot. That's that was my only thought on her. But she absolutely like there was that one scene, Kate, where she like walked in with sunglasses on inside. She Kate: yeah, and you're like, she has sunglasses on inside. Miriam: there's Michelle Rodriguez's line where she's like, You're not the only one with the gun, bitch. Leslye: my god, she wait. Let's talk Kate: my gosh, can we talk about how much she looked like Leslye: about her. Kate: she did not want to be there? Miriam: She Leslye: I Miriam: didn't not want to be there. Kate: Yeah. Leslye: was like, What's up, guys? we got a piece of exposition, and you could tell that she was like, I'm hungover and I'm not taking these off. Miriam: I also did want to just throw out this second screen fact. James Leslye: Yeah. Kate: okay. Miriam: Cameron based Pandora on a dream he had when he was 17. Kate: Yeah, that tracks. Yeah. Yeah. Miriam: Tracks Tracks Big time. Leslye: College dorm room. Miriam: Big time. Leslye: It I just can't believe you kind of enjoyed it I kept writing things like Miriam's going to hate this. I'm afraid Miriam won't be friends with us anymore. Miriam: Well I no, I think it's cause I like filmmaking. Leslye: Jesus. Miriam: Unlike you people no. I did I did write at the end. Holy moly, that was a long movie. Why was it so long? Why? Kate: It wasn't long. Every like fifteen minutes I would look at the time left and be like, There's another hour and forty? Like, how is this possible? Miriam: Yeah, yeah. and then they my other thing is like, how do they have more of these movies? I don't get it. Leslye: Yeah. Kate: I looked it up because I was like Miriam: Seemed Leslye: it? Kate: The second one is they have to go somewhere else because they're getting tracked by the bad guys. So now they're Leslye: Jesus Christ. Kate: married and have Miriam: Whatever. Kate: kids and they have to move to a different planet. think I think it's just a Leslye: Miriam said whatever. Kate: We'd have to find someone who saw the second one and but there's also a third, I think, right? Leslye: Yeah, the third one yeah, Miriam: There's gonna be five. Leslye: there's gonna be five, I think. I think it's interesting Kate: Okay. it does seem like maybe that's too many, but Leslye: too that he's like done. He's like, I just wanna make these. I'm good. Miriam: know. Kate: if all you cared about was that kind of visual and creating new techniques around it, I guess that would be why, right? Miriam: felt like there was equally time spent in the Navi world set pieces as there was in the militaristic, base and their weapons. I would have been slightly more interested if you got to see the Navi world a little bit more, and maybe that's what they go into Leslye: Yeah. Miriam: in future movies. I think that to me would have been interesting. But again, you spend so little time with them. they're either like in montages where they're training or even like I mean, I guess there is some stuff about like their Leslye: No but Miriam: spirituality and stuff, but like it's just it's it's not enough. Kate: Did Miriam: I do think that the last 30 minutes, maybe this is a situation where people had kind of amnesia, because the last 30 minutes are pretty crazy. Like those Leslye: Hm. Miriam: that's those action sequences are like big and crazy. And I wonder if that's all they remember and they're ready to go to the movies again for the next one. Cause they were they're pretty good, pretty well done. Leslye: Also, I think this movie was kind of at the time like cultural jury duty. Like you just had to be like Miriam: Wow. Leslye: everyone was like Avatar, Avatar and it's like, fuck, I guess I have to go see. I also think it's telling that kids don't really dress up as Avatar for Halloween. like Star Wars and Marvel, I feel like they have characters that kids have pajamas about. who do you think the audience for this movie is? Miriam: there's a lot of violence, but to me it's for teenagers, 13-year-old boys, this is like a Treasure Island thing. Like it's just meant to be an action adventure story I wanna say something wild but like if I cared about the Navi as much as I cared about like the Ewoks, this movie would have been ten times better. Like that like that the the thing that is so like like you just Yeah. Leslye: I'm with you. Yes. Yes. It's like I don't need to know that much about the Ewoks to be like, y'all are cute. Miriam: Right. Like I just felt like, and even they have some good little character moments, the Ewoks. I just feel like they did kind of do the Navi kind of dirty this is a very lazy sci-fi movie. You know, again, it's like I think that the the graphics and the the CGI really was favored above story. And it just did not, to me, I was like, this is not a good sci fi movie, like other than the Avatar concept, which is cool. Like it it just really didn't have sci fi juice. Like it had more of a military vibe set in space, than it did, you know, have a sci fi vibe. it was all just too simplified. And they're like even their leaders and stuff, like you don't really care about them or know about them. And it's just very much like They're suffering at the hands of like these bloodthirsty human colonizers. And I just Leslye: I'm with you. It's like oversimplified and too complicated at the same time. Miriam: R Leslye: Alright, well Miriam, it seems like you would give this movie like a B minus C plus. okay, all right. Miriam: No, I would say like a C. I would give it like a C. Leslye: Okay. Miriam: it made me more sad than it made me mad. And I can appreciate the filmmaking that went into it. Leslye: I feel like we gotta ask our audience, like, jump in the comments and let us know if if you were also depressed leaving Avatar. Like, deeply depressed. I mean, it totally Miriam: Deeply depressed. Deeply depressed. Leslye: makes sense. Kate: Yeah. Leslye: I was like, can we still be friends with you? Are you still friends with us for asking you to? Miriam: Mmm You know what? I'm still friends with you because I'm glad that you watched it again and realized that it wasn't that great. Leslye: I just want to remind you that the point of this podcast is not Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: to watch great movies, it's to watch movies that you have not seen. Miriam: I am happy with myself that I made the correct decision to not see this in the theaters I'm mostly happy with myself. Questioning Leslye: Right, right. Miriam: you two, maybe it that's why this didn't really hit my radar is cause it's not a good movie. who's doing repeat viewings of this movie? Leslye: That's what I can't figure out. I I think Miriam: Yeah. Leslye: don't Kate: we need pro Avatar people to break it down f for us. Why is it good? Leslye: Yes, like Explain it to us. Miriam: my final verdict is a real C movie. I didn't fully hate it, but Leslye: Mm. Miriam: I did not love it, and it was way too long. Kate: Glad we can still be friends. I think that's a important. Miriam: We can still be friends. Leslye: Thanks for joining us this week on How Have You Not Seen This? I'm Leslye Miriam: Miriam. Kate: And I'm Kate. Leslye: Tell us what movie we should watch at howhaveyounotseenthis.com. You can subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and follow us on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at H-H-Y-N-S T Pod. Tune in next time for another crime against cinema. And remember, friends are not friends unless they fight about movies.